The Sounds of Hands

0:00Welcome to Skin and Soul. I'm Gwenm Karsley, a transformational body, sex, and soul coach. And I'm inviting you on a bold, unfiltered journey into the heart of our humanity through the lens of arrows. This is where we strip away the shame, dive into the unspoken, and embrace the wild, raw truth of our desires. Together we'll crack open the taboo, uncover our deepest intimacies, and awaken the pulse of our sexual essence. Because real transformation, it's messy, it's thrilling, and it's oh so delightful. Delicious. Buckle up, loves. Skin and soul beyond the pale starts in three, two, one. Let's go. Hello, and welcome, I'm Gwenm, I'm your host of Skin and Soul Beyond the Pale on the New Transformation Talk Revolution, which is part of the Transformation Network. And I am also a body, sex, and soul coach. But today I am joined by, and I'm going to say it, I have favorite babies I do. I shouldn't admit I have favorite children, but I already know this. By an extraordinary human, by the name of Kohli Cutler, who has been around the world,

1:05has had an extraordinary career in American sign language interpretation. And he's gone from inner city schools to jails to podiums at the UN. Across the world has met, I'm not going to, I'm going to let you do the name dropping, but I'm just going to say, you know, I don't know, Oprah, Michelle Fyfer, Marley Matlin, amongst many others, Mandala. I want to start today, we're going to go into the world of silence, hands, body language, and this incredible world that the speaking slash hearing world doesn't get to experience very often. So I'm super excited about today. And I wanted to check in because you've had this incredible career. So first of all, hello, hello, hello, hello, and thanks for having me on. Yeah. So I have the privilege of reading of having read your book, and I know it's not out there yet. So I'm just dropping that hint in no pressure. But I wanted to start with

2:05your your extraordinary career and how you kind of dove into it. And when you realized that this world of the of silence is is much bigger than silence. That's correct. You know, I was just like you before I got engaged in this whole location, I thought the deaf community is quiet. And that's the makeup of how they communicate. Well, I didn't just dive into it. I actually got blown in by the winds, a celestial guidance, every single thing that's happened in my career, even the fact that I started learning silence language was completely by happenstance and serendipity. And so that's one of the amazing arcs that I've made in this career. I didn't plan a thing. I didn't plan any of it. I didn't practice for any of it. I just kept going from one that led to the next thing that led to the next thing. And I found out a lot about the deaf community,

3:09about communication, about building a bridge after I started working. So my first experience was driving along in my car in in near LA. And it was very warm out. So I had my window down. And I noticed there was these two guys on the sidewalk, and they're looking at each other as they walk, and they're doing this kind of thing. And looking at each other without even moving their heads, they're not looking around like traffic's coming or people walking just like this. And I thought that's some bullshit going on right there. I had no idea what they were doing was as complex as I would learn later. So I thought, I'll tell you what I'll do. I will learn sign language to prove them wrong. It was 45 years ago. So since then, I have found out that quite to the opposite expectation, deaf people are not quiet. And they're loud and proud and happy to share that. So there's a misconception because when we don't know them and we haven't sat down at their table or

4:13walked a mile in their shoes, we think it's a quiet language. But there's a lot of noise that comes through with language, with expression and with human expressions that we all share that they have just as much as anyone else. So it's really not silent when we look into it and experience it. But from out here where most of us live, we don't know. I had no idea what sign language entailed or what deaf people could do or couldn't do. And I thought, well, I've always been kind of hands-y. Maybe I'll like this language because in high school, I couldn't stand Spanish and French. No way. I just couldn't do it. I just didn't have it. And then I went to college where a bunch of deaf people went to college because right down the street was the deaf school in the state. And they would graduate high school and come to this community college. So I was like, how did that happen? I

5:19didn't plan that. But there I was in the middle of the lunchroom with all these deaf people going over lunch and I thought, okay, how can they go that fast? How do they even know what they're saying? But it's just really language. We start with, look, Jane, look, see spot run. And we kind of go from there. Same thing on their side. People who do school language learn a few words like mama and more and meal and play and then they get food in it. So I learned as I went. Which is I chose because as you were doing and we'll talk about that. I think a little bit later, but that babies now, it's very common to teach babies now like the very basics in terms of how to eat and drink. But back to the school thing because I can relate when I went to school. My very first school, I went to a deaf, I'm going to say a co-collaborative deaf and hearing school. And I wish

6:19today that they had incorporated sign language into the school. Instead, we were kept very separate. So it was a very strange feeling of like, who are these people? And who, I mean, I think it went both ways. It just felt very, very strange. But it was later on that I was on a bus. And I think we talked about this was on a bus. And I was the only hearing person on the bus. And there were about, I don't know, eight or ten deaf, I'm say young, young people chatting. And they were the loudest people on the bus. And it wasn't that they were loud with their mouths, right? But they were animated. You could tell like they were expressing themselves fully. I don't was fascinating for me to witness. I was just like, oh, this is, and I was the outsider that not understanding the language at all. And I want you to talk a little bit about this language. Because I think it's really important. And how it's constructed. Because you explain it so beautifully. Sure, like you, I had no idea what to expect in the beginning. And I thought it was just a very

7:26quiet, well-controlled, stepstone to communication. I thought it was a secondary method since we hear with our ears and say with our mouth. And if someone doesn't have that capability, they must be doing some crutch work with communicating. But it is not like that at all. It's just like if if you were born into a clan of people who had no open mouths. They just had a nose and they could just have enough mouth room to bring in some meat or something to drink. And the rest of it was how we can communicate. It's just a natural expression to have the hands be the next step to communicating. And so it just becomes natural. And we can see from documentaries and such that there were people of the ancient ages and first nations people are using their hands to

8:28describe things that they want to bring down in the history of their language since they didn't have any written language either. What was going on and they used their hands for that. So we see some use in it from way back then. And now there's been a big fight. Now when I say now, I mean within the last few hundred years, there's been a big fight between parents who don't want their kids to fall behind and being strought with fear about having a deaf kid, how are they going to raise it? How are they going to communicate with it? How are they going to train it and educate it and raise the kid right? And so it's fairly new in terms of, well, we've had Spanish speaking people here for hundreds of years and French people for hundreds of years and Iranian people for thousands of years. And they're all pretty old in their progress with their languages. But in sign language, it's rather new. It was around, but it wasn't allowed to be practiced for the longest

9:31time. I'll give you an interesting statistic of all the deaf people. Let's just say in this country, 90% have hearing parents. That's 10% of all the deaf people have deaf parents, 10%. So of the 90% of the parents that are hearing and have a deaf kid, only 90% of those learn sign language. How many? So 90% of the 90% of the 90% that have deaf kids. Yeah, learn it. Learn it. Which then keeps that child in isolation and unable to communicate. And there's a barrier between the child and the parents, which I think must be horrific. And then not knowing how to communicate. And this language is so liberating. I think at one point you say something around, there was this thought, well, if God is, it's the spoken word. And trying to remember how you

10:36phrase it, but talking about if you can't speak it, then they don't have a soul is how deaf, right? A hundred, 120, 130, 150 years ago that parents in general, and not all of them, but many of them were told by the clergy and by the elders, your child does not hear. Therefore, how can he hear the word of God? So he has no soul. So he's not getting out of the house. He's not going to be able to be educated or have a job or be participating in society. So they kept these deaf kids away from everything. Now that was just a couple hundred, that was a hundred to 200 years ago. So then in 1888, there was a huge convention all over the world about this problem of so many deaf kids without education because most parents did not know sign language. And so they had a big conference and they said, you know what? We should allow them to learn sign language. And for once and for all, they will have a language which will be easier to teach a second language. And hopefully that will

11:39be English or whichever country they were in so that they could acclimate and just be a part of society. And that was the rule for about 50 years. And then they changed their mind and said, no, no more we have to change this to cheating deaf kids like they're going to be hearing. And that means teaching them English and every word that was taught was English, not in the hands like three dimensional efficient signing would go, but very difficult using, you know, what is it when when someone is mouthing basically having to read lips like quite literally so having to face you which then I mean one of the things about sign language, whether it's reading lips or signing is that it is a very visual physical act. And I wanted you to describe because because you do it so beautifully in and your mind works at three different levels. I think you were saying at some point,

12:42you know, you're signing, you're interpreting what the person is saying, it's filtering through, you're speaking a language and you're able to see whatever else is going on. And I think at one point, you know, your friend is commenting on something and just the fluency that three or four things can happen at the same time and your brain is thinking in multiple languages at the same time. Which is amazing to me. But it's being processed through a visual, you say it's a two-dimensional, three-dimensional conceptual way to express something. Right, so the tree. And we can see this is a tree. Here's the ground where I have the ground and here's the tree. Here's the tree waving in the wind. Here's a willow tree, you know, so you can see how this can be adapted to mean this or that. This is rain and this is a lot of rain and this is sideways rain

13:44so we know there's wind and there's nuances about how to deliver sign language that give it meaning and that can go on for, you know, I could give you a hundred or maybe a thousand more ways that that can happen that we learn over time. So in the beginning, we don't know these things. We just have to realize that go to go somewhere to go out is to go out. So there is a verb right there. Now if I wanted to say, but they're going to be coming to my house, I would say coming to my house. So that just by turning around the verb and the air, this way is coming over, this way is going out, it has a different meaning. So those are things that make sign language unique just like we have adjectives that make speaking English or speaking any spoken language have different meanings. Yeah, then it has its poetics as well. What I got out of it and is that you say you're an interpreter which is different than translation, which is literally

14:46you're going after, you know, in translation, you're really going the word for word and interpretation as an interpreter. There are moments even though you're meant to be very impartial that you that you are then servicing the person who is speaking, right? So that you're getting that across. And so it just fascinates me that the body is so expressive that you can catch the nuances of what somebody is saying because this could be go. But I imagine if there's a sarcasm attached to it, there's a facial expression. There's got that right. Right? Yeah. We have a thousand ways to bend words just like we do to bend signs. You know, I could say, I want to go or I can't go. Only one of them just broke down. I don't know what that was, but there's the two-handed go and this one went, so I'm traveling with the impairment or I just can't go. You just

15:51drop, which isn't a sign language rule, but we're just making that up to show exactly how we've eaten it. Yeah, so there's still like in a strange way, there's sentence structure. And then taking that farther because you've been in all of these different rooms. Right? And so being in a room, I think you describe being in rooms like, okay, so it's one thing to be interpreting on a stage which you've done magnificently. You've been in a lot of theater productions with some extraordinarily notable people, as well as being in films. So having to act in a role, also interpreting in a role. Yes. Yes. That's exciting because there is a line between artistic presentation and language interpreting. So I could stand here in a very rigid way and not move many features on my face by saying, you know, one time, a long time ago, there were a lot of people that came to this line,

16:55literally, and I'm actually signing, but there's no spirit to it. And when you're signing the meaning and the intent and the spirit of whoever's doing the talking, we want to match. This is the match. I love the sign. So how do we express what they're trying to say with what we are adequately interpreting? And that's the art. That's the forum. So when someone comes to do a Shakespeare piece, they study those lines and they realize how much room they have to deliver a positive message with the same line or a negative one. And when deaf people want you to know it, they're going to show you they're mad and there's no mistake in that. Or when they're happy. Or when they're happy. But then being in the role of, let's say at some point, you were in a jail or you're negotiating something for someone as you are interpreting and you're

17:57bringing out the other person because you're staying, you're neutral, but you are literally the voice of whatever is coming through. I think at one point you say you're yelling at somebody and the guy is like, why are you yelling at me? And you're like, no, no, look to him. I'm not yelling at you. That's right. Technically it's them, but they're only hearing one person voice and that's me. What somebody is deaf and they're yelling in sign language and it's spirited. My voice has to match their intent. So when I get looked at, it's like, why are you, why is the interpreter yelling? You're right. It's not me. This is the guy that's yelling at you. And I'm just a bridge. I'm just facilitating information between you two. And I am not involved. I'm just a fly on the wall. But it's me that has to make that clear that one is this person and the other one is that person. How does it feel to be that person that is the fly on the wall, the one that's in, let's say you've been in some really interesting situations, right? Being in the psychiatrist or the psychoanalyst

19:00office or being in prison. And I'm just wondering how, how it feels whether it's this, you know, feels, I mean, just listening to it is that there's a sense of voyeurism, right? This witness that is, and I imagine that there's a lot of intimacy, though, and a lot of privilege that goes to being privy to such information. Yes, there's a lot of soul involved in how close we get to someone. And it's just like everything else, if you think about it this way, if you were the only person that spoke the language of a bear, and you were going to talk about how bears approach lions. And then the other bear speaker would speak to you in bear language. Okay, I don't know where these lions are at in terms of what they understand when we attack, and when we wait, and when we share, and when we help their cubs, etc. So I'm going to pick out

20:02one of them. Here's the lion coming up. Now you don't know if you're going to get attacked. You don't know if you're going to be kissed and licked and affectionate given, or you don't know anything in between, because these are animals. These are, you're just a bear, and these people are all different from you in some way. So you have to find out where they're at, and that's the artistic part of what we do. We have to assess where a person's ability and language competence comes in so that we can match that. We don't go into the psychiatrist's office expecting that the person that we're going to be using sign language with is a PhD and, you know, a Rhodes scholar. However, they might be brighter than I am, so I don't know. So we have to ask them a couple of questions to kind of get where they're at from language. So hi, my name is Coley. What's your name? And if they can't spell their name, okay, now I know that they haven't had a formal education,

21:02or they haven't spelled their name very often, or only hearing people have told them what to do all their life, and they don't know sign. So I have to make all these guess works to match up what the psychologist is saying to how I'm signing to match his understanding or her understanding. And so it's a trial and error process, but we get good at it. So when I see a patient who's in dire need of observing or medication or, you know, watching or lockdown or wherever they're at in a situation where they need to assess it too, I have to figure out where I can be, whether my, what we call register, which is just a way of talking. So if you and I were brothers and sisters, I would say, oh man, this sucks. I know. Remember that place by the thing where we went, I know it's just like that. And we would understand each other clear, but that's because we know each other so well. But if we didn't know each other so well for so long and have, you know, shared

22:05genes, then I might have to say, hello, how are you? And how many years of language have you studied? And where did you graduate from? And then you would give me a little bit of information about where you're at, you know, language wise. And I would say, okay, this person is obviously very good with vocabulary and deeper words. So the same thing happens with deaf people. And if if a shrink asks me, which they usually do in one of these lockdown examinations, have you heard any voices? And so, okay, I got to say right there, okay, time out, time out. This is going to take me about five minutes because what I'm going to do is interpret that. I'm not going to ask this deaf person if he's heard voices because he's never heard voices would be crazy to him. So I have to make the meaning of this sentence into something that this person already knows about how to express. Now, I don't know that in full, but I'm going to give it a shot. So I would say,

23:12I might say, sometimes there's a situation when you're alone. And you're just thinking. And when you're thinking, you're thinking maybe numbers on your hand or you're thinking maybe, you know, how many things are in the street or, you know, how many things are on the rooftop. You have something that's telling you in some way with sign language that you should go rob that bank. Do you ever have that experience? And they might say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, which means no, they don't hear any voices. That to me is a equivalent equal. And if they want to, you know, examine further and deeper, I would expand that concept into more things that have to do with what they're imagining, rather than what they're hearing, what they're saying with their mouth. Because we're bringing in our own assumptions of how the thought their thought process works. And one thing that comes to mind is that there would probably have to be almost innately some kind of trust between the interpreter and the deaf person. And even though, you know,

24:15someone's in prison, right, where they're looking at you, I don't know if I should trust this person because that's going to come right out of their mouth. So they are, you are the extension of them through the voice, which already creates a form of, I'm going to say, connection between the two of you become sort of symbiotic. So I'm wondering, you know, do you ever find yourself taking on the emotion that the person is having? So that you're taking it home, that it becomes yours in the moment. All the time, except I don't take it home. I usually like talk to myself in my car on the way home and kind of deescalate if it's serious. If it's really like, I'm a human being and somebody's crying and they're talking about this god-awful thing that happened to them, I can't help myself but get a little misty. But I'm doing my job. I'm focused on keeping that boundary between a caregiver and a person who's facilitating communication. I have been in

25:19many jail cells and I used to be really afraid in the beginning that they're all, you know, they're all convicts. They're all, they've all broken the law. Who knows what's going to happen to me? Oh my god, I was so nervous. And then after the years, I realized the interpreters are favorite person. I'm the only chance they have to get out of here. I'm the only way they can possibly fathom getting something towards freedom is to having me on their side. So I go in all neutral like we're going to see how this goes and I go, you know, how about you? There's an immediate I'm your friend. I hope you support me kind of thing to a certain point because there are bars you know separating us. But there is this, oh, let me make myself clear to you because you're the person that could make it clear to the judge. And so it's kind of the empowerment that we get over the job we have in that there is a strict line that we draw. Court is on one side and the lawyers and the inmates are on the other and we are a tool of the court. So just like a telephone,

26:23when you pick up the telephone and it rings and someone says, hello, you say, oh, hi, you don't say a telephone. Can you tell the person, hello, and this is me and that I've been meaning to call him? No, you don't speak in third person to a phone. You just directly talk to the person that you're talking to. And that's the same thing that we do. We talk to the person in first person who's signing and who's speaking both. So we're automatically one of their own. If I'm signing with somebody, there's nobody else in jail that signs and here I come in signings. They're like, oh, finally my kind in a way a lot of times. So then in your, I'm going to call it like your more personal relationships for friends and so on that you are, that you connect with, that you're not interpreting, you're signing with. One thing that comes to mind around sign language is that it is very visceral, that it's much more difficult to hide behind what we have, especially in today's world, right?

27:24We're so good at hiding behind masks. We're good at creating a voice that isn't necessarily our own. And I'm wondering if it just, if, if being deaf or just having that quality of bringing in the body, innately makes it a much more intimate experience because one, you are looking at someone in the eyes. You are taking in their entire being. You're not cutting it off in one place. And you even describe at some point being blind and deaf, right? So, so just the quality of touching, which fascinates me, especially in this world today, where we bring in more AI, right, we're becoming so disconnected from humanity. It's almost as though like, you know, there's this, this language that has it right because it's so in the body. I would say that's a very astute observation. And I'm glad you ask me that because there is

28:27some of that. There is a level at which it is a secret language that not many people know. But you never know who knows it. If I'm talking to you on a bus and someone else is kind of like, not staring, but at least catching up with saying, they may understand every word we say. Or sometimes deaf people don't want anybody to know. So they'll go like this. You know, and they'll hide what they're doing so nobody can really tell. But for the community that knows it, we're very comfortable starting to use it because all of a sudden this noise goes down so nobody can overhear it. If we're in a big room with a seminar of people, or if we're in a hall or airport or anywhere where there's a lot of people, we just start using it. It just automatically goes, and so we're doing this. We're laid back. We don't have to say, what I said was, I wonder when the flight is a landing. Yes. Instead of explaining yourself with the noise factor in many places

29:32that hearing people go, like a bar or like a club or even a restaurant. So we have this secret kind of inroad to communicating because we know sign. So in between all of the hearing people, and all of the deaf people, there's some people that are right in between. There's two groups of people that are right in between. One group is those people who are hard of hearing. And hard of hearing people have it much worse than most others because they can't hear enough of what the hearing people are saying to get it all. And they don't know enough sign like the deaf people know to follow it all. So there's this blank spot in the middle of two cultures where a lot of people who are hard of hearing feel like, I just, you know, there's just, they can't cross that line. So the other group is called Kodas, CODA, child of deaf adults. Now, children of deaf adults, their first

30:32language is ASL. So they are born fluid. And they start signing before speaking, like you mentioned earlier. And so when there's a bunch of Kodas in a room, it can't be a better party anywhere. And so would we meet people across the country who are Kodas, Kodas, Kodas, Kodas, and we all get to talk together. We have a secret privilege that either sides don't have. And so I was kind of afraid to explain this whole thing that I'm in this world in between two worlds because there's not worlds. They're just diasporas to my family and tell them, you know, I know language that other people don't know. And that's like some superpower. And they would just say, yeah, yeah, so you're still teaching sign language at the desk? Well, no, no, no, I'm not teaching. It was hard to get a concept through to most people like that. But when we do get together, I would say the superpowers are kept within the group so that they never get hunted like the X-Men did.

31:37Well, I think the superpower is understanding these two worlds. It's being, it's being bilingual, one in a secret world that most people don't know. And that it is a world from what I understood from this 3D conceptual world is that it is a very visual world. So you are describing visuals. And so storytelling becomes the art of whatever is being said. So you say, you're not just saying, boy, runs across the street. There's much more nuance. And everything is described from the sky, the smell in the air, the flavor of whatever pavement you're walking on. So it's, I don't know, I flavor, but you know, the the feeling. So there's I think what I mean, I've fallen in love with the idea. I've wanted to take sign language. And I think a lot of people have said that to you, oh, yes, I've been meaning to do that. You know, where I thought, oh,

32:41Italian is one of the most beautiful languages out there for me. But sign is so magical because it is this almost this choreographical dance. And I keep coming back to this. Oh, there's such a beautiful intimacy in it innately put in because it demands contact. It demands presence. It demands, I mean, I'm sure that like even when somebody doesn't want to give you presence, it's so obvious because it has to be. It's I'm not, I'm not looking at you anymore. Yep, that's exactly right. And boy, don't three-year-olds get that fast. Yes. So do you find in terms of depth of of connection? Do you find the difference between the hearing and the deaf? In some ways, yeah. Because in general, hearing people have a very individualistic

33:42social experience. We get praise when we achieve something on our own. Look at how much money I may. Look how many businesses I've built. Look how many people I've served. I've been the CEO for so long. And this is how we compare each other's achievements in general, not always. But that's more so of deaf people who have a very collective togetherness communication. So you'll hear sometimes people saying, oh, well, if you try and rip off a deaf person, you're hurting, you're not hurting one person. You're hurting the whole deaf community. That is the vibe between how they operate. A lot of it pasted, a lot of it might have to do with a lot of people going to these boarding schools where all the deaf kids in one school would arrive on Sunday night, go to school for the week, come home on Friday, spend the weekend at home, and then go back on Monday. That's, and that's for how many years, eight years or 10 years. So they've grown

34:44up with each other and they know how to avoid getting in trouble with somebody else because they're like a family. And so they know who's who, who's doing a lot in general. So we as hearing people, as far as I can tell, I'm not an expert, but I look for your input on this. We have ways of connecting that start off with questions and and discussion about where we are in life. So where do you work? Where do you go to school? How where do your parents live? And things like that and basing whether you're a good match just on the first layer, which is, are we the same in that way? And then it's what do you like to do? And what really pisses you off and what's your favorite thing? And that's the kind of way that we're very used to getting to know someone into it. Whereas with deaf people, I think it's sped up a little bit. I remember when I was going to school, during college, there's all these deaf people in the lunch room and they're all coming from the

35:49deaf school down street and there was all these deaf schools, deaf people sharing stories and talking about school and talking about their families and just having a good time just talking and they're all grouped together. And so for me to break into that, I had to like just be a quiet little bird in the corner until they addressed me. Until they let you into their inner circle. Yeah, inner circle. But now I wasn't trying to look for an intimate relationship. I was just trying to be accessible to joining and whatever it is that they were saying, whatever they were talking about. Because I needed to learn. And so they did take me in because anybody who wants to sign usually gets invited in. We'll show you a sign. We'll show you, we'll show you slang. We'll show you the the cuss words. Like I am in. And so there's that quickness of we're like this now because we share a language as opposed to our background or our parents' backgrounds.

36:50Yeah, Jessie, you get in there pretty quickly because and it's true. I think a lot of you know, just in meeting someone like you said, you know, you can start with the pleasant trees and you don't need to be I say like masks that people can wear masks and identities, right? Like pretend a lot easier. Even if we don't mean to, it could be whatever is going on but that in not being able to hear and having to have so much physical contact and so much awareness that there is an energy exchange, if you will. So connection being very, very present with the person that you don't I can think of so many, you know, instances where you know, the presence goes out the window but when and I think it goes for actually people who are blind as well that there's like a presence that needs to happen in order to connect with the person. And so yeah, and so like a lot of the bullshit kind of falls away very, very quickly because you are physically involved now and I

37:52mean physically you are expressing yourself and so all of the crap just kind of tends to fall off very naturally. Most of the crap falls off early. Most of it. Yeah, humans are humans. So we can't say all deaf people have this amazing power to go, hey, let's go out and let's like live together. It's not quite like that but you seem more of it I believe in that kind of community than we do. So I remember as I was maybe six months in or almost half a semester in that, you know, I got to hang out with these people and they went to the they went to the theme park and I came with them and they had events where they did shows and did things on stage and I was like, what are they doing? What are they doing? And they invited me to do that. So I finally met this girl and she was very attractive and she looked at me and was like, oh, no, no, you can't. And so we kind of hit it off and we became close and she came from a family of seven people who were all deaf. She had five sisters all deaf and then her parents were deaf

38:52and on and on there were generations. So she was like the most deaf person that I'd ever met at that point. And so she was a little bit hard of hearing and was fully deaf oriented, deaf culture. And so we would do things and we would go out to have something to eat. And at one point we were at her house and we're starting to talk about something that happened at her house and her mom or something like a family spat something. And so she starts telling me she's talking to me usually saying, well, you know, they didn't even realize and she started into the fastest sign language that I've seen and I went and I was like, taking a back by, well, how serious is it going to get? Is she going to smack me or what? And I just started understanding what she was saying to the point where I didn't need to understand what words she was using. I got where she was going because we had that visceral in the moment presence where she was just and, you know, after about five minutes of ranting and raving, she goes, you know, I went, yeah, yeah. I mean,

39:57I hear you in a way that I've heard all of that and that surprised me that you can actually step up your game when it's in, it's, it's dire need time and someone's depending on you to be there so that you can have support and understanding. And if I went, I can't understand you, oh, that would have blown up the whole, the whole album. Yeah, it's the, it's the, it's when you no longer need to interpret anything in your, you're not, you're not doing the conversion anymore, you already are in that. Yeah, which is so fascinating because, and then it, which brings me to, and I don't know why, and I still haven't figured it out in my head when we're talking in languages, how many different sign languages there are because the assumption is is that there's only an ASL, right, that there's the American sign language, of course, but there's, but there's an endless amount of languages that are based on the language. And so, which fascinating, I kept thinking,

41:00why wouldn't there be one standard, right? Let me ask you real quick. I know, but it's like which standard? Why don't we have just one language for the whole world? That's right. Yeah. Ah, that's right. So it's, and it is, it's, it's the cultural, um, flavors and how things are expressed when I kept thinking, oh, so, you know, how, as your friend is Japanese, how they would experience a sunset or a place of, and how they describe it versus how. That's right. So, and or the American would describe it. Exactly. And even in between, even shared languages, countries like England and America, we have American sign language, they have British sign language, totally different, totally different, and we're both using English as a spoken language. But anyway, let's just say, um, it comes from a lot of factors. One is what their alphabet looks like. So we have, you know, L and O, and you, they look similar to our written Roman language. In Japanese, they have different

42:05thingering because they have, they have little drawings. So they use their spelling with the drawings of Kashi, which is the written language of Japan. And I happen to be interpreting in Japan one time. And there was a whole panel of people. So there were several interpreters and several booths of, um, dictating those, every, every sound in every language at the same time. And so I happen to be standing on the stage on this side. And there was another Japanese spoken interpreter on this side. And we're both interpreting from English what some presenter on the screen was saying. So I was doing ASL and he was doing JSL. And so we got to one point, and this was back in the 90s, where the speaker starts talking about, well, it's just like the thing when we try and, you know, find all the monsters that, that you call Pikachu. And as soon as he started saying things like that, I went, I have no words. And I looked over at the Japanese interpreter,

43:10and he kept going and went, one of the words was, and all the other pocket monsters. And I looked over real quick and he went, and put it back in the pocket. And there's nothing there. He just, that's his sign. Yeah, it's like that. That's exactly what we're trying to talk about. So we can see where, when things stem from an origin, they, they expand from where they came from. Yeah. And I would say that you must have an extraordinary vocabulary, because as we said, you've been in, you've been in prisons, you've been in psychiatric hospitals, but you've, you've stood on the stage at the UN. You've been, so you've been in medical situations where somebody's being operated on, so you're translating information. And, and also for those people, as you said earlier, that don't have an education. So then you're, you're working with cultural and mentalities, just, just in the way that they're speaking, and they're,

44:12they're neighbors, right? And what, what they're bringing in, which is fascinating, and being able to adapt to that. So what do you think makes a great interpreter? Somebody who's passionate about their job, because it's exhausting, and somebody who likes linguistics, because we can always look at more and more words, but sometimes people specialize, and they learn all the words in that specialty, and not so much in the others. So what clicked for me is that after I failed Spanish and English, and I found sign language, it was, it was easy. I liked doing it. This was new. I've always been 3D oriented, enhanced, moving oriented. So this was something I picked up. And then I started learning about after you know a lot of vocabulary, how do you shift it real quick in your mind to match what somebody else means by it? So we actually have five processes that we're running in our brain at the same time.

45:14Doesn't happen immediately when you first start learning. When you first start learning, you go, can focusing on the one, and I don't know what to say, well, I can't even, I, I, I, prove knows what that I can't even possibly think about this one, because I'm thinking about one, which is hearing what you say. And so we start little exercises, like get a partner, stand in front of each other, and do what you and I are doing. It's face to face, start talking over, only we overlap. So you, or no, you just say what I'm saying. So we'll try this for a five second piece, okay? Just saying in the same pace and the same tone that I'm using it. One time when I was little, I went to, go ahead, you have to start. Oh, okay, one time when I was little. I went to school and I didn't, and I didn't realize that, and you've kind of faded out on your microphone. I forgot to give me lunch, and then I asked her about my, yeah, okay. So there's a snippet of how we have to learn to listen and speak at the same time. Then we have to try talking

46:17separate stories, stop in the middle, okay, what did the other person say? Okay, and then we have to do it in a different language. Okay, you sign, and I'll talk, and then you tell everybody what I said, and I'll tell everybody what you signed, and then we just increase our levels of understanding of going back and forth really fast so that it's not even back and forth. It's just listening to both only what we're really doing is what we're really fast. And so what we're doing is we're listening to someone, and then we're perceiving what they say. The next thing we do is process that to go, how do they meet it? If this person over here says, for, for example, well, thanks a lot. Okay, they don't mean thanks a lot. They're being sarcastic. So I have to figure out what is the sarcastic equivalent in another language? So I figure that out, and then this one is expressing that sarcasm, but not in voice. How do I do it with my facial expressions? Or a different sign that I use? And then I have to deliver that message inside. And the thing is to monitor all those

47:21things to make sure it's flowing. If I, if we're doing this, and I'm going along, and the person goes, I go, okay, well, time out, all of these stop, and I go, you didn't understand me? Okay, oh, you didn't, oh, no, I said banana, not Hannah. Oh, okay, fine. And then we get going, doing the five processes over and over. And that takes years to get to the point where you're confident enough to stand on a stage with people watching you and saying in a microphone, in a huge arena, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming here. I really want to thank you, and just follow what somebody else is doing, and nobody's seeing you peeing your pants below the podium and you're going, I hope I did this wrong. You're a master. Well, you become a master multitasker. And, and I, I, I have to transition because we're, we're, we're just getting to towards the edge. And I do have a question at the end. So I want to ask you our, the 10 questions, and then I will have a couple of questions still to ask you. So in this vein, tell me one truth

48:26that your body has always known that your mind took years to catch up to. The fact that I thought I was more weird than any kid I'd seen at school or any person that I'd met outside of school. And I have a name that is a very unique name, it's Coley, and I'm the first to four and my, my siblings are Cheryl, Mike and Steve. So I always wondered why am I cast with this name that's so weird and people must think I'm weird because my name is weird and I don't want to be weird and it took a long time to wrestle with that to not tell people the origin because people say, well, where's it from? What's it mean? What's it short for? It's not from anywhere. It doesn't mean anything. It's not short for anything. Until I was interpreting at an assignment that I didn't plan, but it just so happens. It was a Jewish funeral. And the rabbi came in and said, what's your name? And I told him and he said, you know what that means in Hebrew? I said, no, he said it means my voice. All of a sudden angels started singing. And I thought a burden has

49:31been lifted. And I don't have to hide my name inside my soul anymore because it actually means what I'm doing that I think I'm really kind of good at. And I really enjoy. And I'm getting up or missed. All he did was say, well, you didn't know this translation? Well, here you go. And so I feel so thankful. And it's all here. It's all in me. Nobody knew I had some kind of inner struggle. But after that, I am so glad that I can introduce myself now and I just go slow. And now I say, my name is coolly. And then what? But I don't care. I don't care. Yeah, no, it's amazing that you were gifted the name, my voice, which, yes, it's perfect, right? And that it followed you into your life. All right. So what is the most intimate moment you've ever had that had nothing to do with sex? Okay. Are we talking about interpreting realm or just

50:37anything? Yeah, this is, this is your, your space. Okay. Without going down the interpreting route, because there's so many stories, I would say that I've had a few massages in my life. But there was one in Houston while I was out there for a month. And it was just some place on them all. And I went and they had the bars up top where they would grab on and then walk on your back, which I'd never had. And they took out these little smooth river rocks and feed them up and put them on my back, which I'd never had and went, oh, I didn't get a rouse, but it was so intense. And she's so complete. I went, oh, this is him. And I had nobody there that I knew. And I had no reason to deserve that I got this kind of relaxation and pleasure and complete comments every cell in my body is what. Yes, a hot stone massage. And then they walk on my back

51:43and I was like, I feel floating like I don't even, I didn't feel a bit. And after I got done, I thought, wow, that's live in the good life. Okay. Now, what is, okay, if you could be remembered for one sensation, you gave someone, what would it be? Laughter. Thank you. True, true laughter in a way that is funny because we both understand it and we can't refute that it's not true, which means we both understand something and we both think it's true. So if there's something going on and I saw the painting of your horse and I said, yeah, but we can only see three legs of that horse and we both understood what we were talking about. We both went, oh my yeah, right, right? And we came back down from our laughter. We go, that's like a bonding thing. We just became, we have a joke or an understanding about that thing, about that time that we both share. So that's what I really like the most.

52:44Thank you. If pleasure were a language, what would your first word be? More. Yeah. And if your erotic life had a title like a novel or a film, what would it be called? Say the question again, it's my what now? If your erotic life. So I'm, and you can think of this as life as arrows, right? So like a novel or a film, what would it be called? The inner hemisphere knows best. The inner hemisphere knows best. What's one thing you've never said out loud, but you wish someone would ask you about? Hmm. I'm going to say it out loud right now, right?

53:46Okay. Yeah. This is what facing me. You're inside it. Oh, then nobody will know, but I'll know that. Well, there's some people will not know. That's right. You know, I have been so expressive and I've been honest with so many things. I mean, everything with someone at some point. This is a hard one. Tell me this question again, so I can. Oh, um, what's the one thing you've never said out loud, but you wish someone would ask you about? Um, were you able to meet your parents in a space that you finally feel comfortable with? For a long time, I did not, and now I'm still working on it, but I have a goal of getting it closer and closer to the mid-beam line of we're on equal footing. Thank you. Let's see, what part of your erotic self are you still afraid to bring into the light?

54:53My butt all. I love it. I love it. I don't think there's anything that I can imagine trying or feeling or experiencing or remembering that I would ever want that to be exposed to the light. It's exposed to the light of the process. So therefore, yep. Hello, okay. Um, what dies in you when you pretend and what, uh, and what comes alive when you don't? The trust in people in general dies when I fake something. Like say, oh, we're closed you know, sorry, I can't open door or, um, no, I can't come down there right now because I don't have enough time or one of those little lives where you just don't want to or you just feel like you can't and then you fake something. I feel like how can I trust anybody if they do something that I just

55:59which is cover over the truth with some lame-ass excuse. Likewise, when I am genuine, like if I'm upset or if I'm, if someone's aggressive towards me, if someone comes up to me rage bite and they square up and I'm thinking, okay, this is where I get killed or I say something because I'm certainly not the kind that can kick anybody's ass. I would say, I hear you. I understand you. Hey, listen, I don't doubt you're in some, you're in a state. Of course you would I totally understand where you're coming from. Can I help you? Can go down and find a resource? Can I, I mean, you obviously have the power to take my money and my car if you so wanted, but you know, what do you need? Is it a home cook meal? Is it shoes? Is it cloak? Let me help you and with that we can deescalate and I feel like that is total honesty and that should be

56:59shared with everyone in the world. We all thought this is. Yeah. Yes. Finish this sentence, where we're very close to the end. So finish this sentence when I leave this life, I want my skin to remember. It's like my skin to remember my youthful appearance. And if the soul has a scent, right? And if the soul has a scent, what does your smell like today? Lavender. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. And if there's one thing that you can just say to a hearing audience that you've learned like a gem and nugget of wisdom around silence or the deaf community, what would you say? I would say exactly what I'm trying to say throughout my entire book, which is these things happen to me serendipitously. And I had a

58:00wonderful career so far and it's available to you, people who are reading about this. We need more interpreters. There's this many deaf people and there's this many interpreters and people are being blocked from, you know, legal settings and hospital settings and financial settings. And we need more people to get together and say, let's even out the score for these people who are kept in this world that some people think it's hidden. Yeah. And even to starting it as another language in a school, you know, I grew up in Montreal, so it was English and French. And I know in the U.S. there's Spanish, English. And I'm like, add it people because this is a whole community that's worldwide and yes, with different languages. But yes, thank you to make communication easier and to bring more people together. So thank you. Your website is at ColeyCutler.com.

59:00You can check it on my Facebook. And on Facebook and on Instagram. And again, thank you. Thank you for this enlightening discussion. I loved your book. Yes, it is. It's filled with magnificent stories. It's unbelievable. The people that you have met truly. And I know I would, it's like we didn't even get to touch on, you know, like I said, meeting Mandela, working with Oprah, all of that. And yeah, this is the letter I letter L. And this is the letter Y. All other L. Y. I love you. Oh, I love you. That's a good one. Thank you. That's a good one. Universal. Thank you. All right. Thank you. And everyone, have a great weekend. I will see you next time. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for listening to Skin and Soul with me, Guinnam.

1:00:01Join me Fridays at 10 a.m. PST on Transformation Talk Radio. Catch the podcast anytime on your favorite platforms. You can follow me on Instagram, at Luvology. Ready to take the next step? Book a compatibility call with me at guinnamcarsely.com.