The Screen Time Advice That's Hurting Your Kids

0:00I am Anna C. Wald and this is Authentic Parenting, a podcast about growing ourselves while raising our children. I'm a psychologist, educator and parent coach. My mission is to end violence against children. Through my work and this podcast, I help parents break generational cycles of trauma, reconnect with their authentic selves and raise emotionally healthy children. Together we've built a global community of conscious parents who want something different for the next generation. Join us as we create a more peaceful, kind and compassionate world. Today, the screen time advice that's hurting your kids. Today I am joined by my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Laura Freud.

1:01It's been a while since Laura and I have done an episode together. Today we're talking about something that affects every family, screens. We get very personal sharing our own experiences with technology and social media, including how and why we both stepped away from Instagram and what that has changed in our lives. We talk about screen free family meals, why bedrooms and screens don't mix, how to help our children navigate the internet and social media, and why some of the screen time advice you may have been following for the past three or five years may no longer be the best advice. Laura also shares an experiment she did with her own children over the past two summers, with some fascinating and eye-opening results. We talk about giving our children more credit, why screens shouldn't be used as rewards or

2:05punishments and so much more. We also referenced the book Dopamine Kids by Michaeline Duke-Liff and I'll link to my conversation with her and some other episodes on smartphones, social media and screen use in the show notes. As always, there is no one size feeds all approach to screens, but I think this conversation will give you some fresh ideas and perhaps make you rethink some of what you've been doing. Please enjoy and as always, thank you for listening. And let's talk about screen time, screen time use and some tips for parents. First of all, are you still off of Instagram yourself of social media? Yeah, so I don't post on Instagram. All my old videos are there and I keep thinking like, oh gosh, I need to go in there and kind of clean that up and tidy it up.

3:06Like there's videos of my kids when they were little that like, oh gosh, are they so okay with that? You know, like five-year-old kiddo gave me permission, but how does 11-year-old kiddo feel about that now? So I do need to go clean it up, but no, I don't. I don't anymore. There are times where I do put Facebook back on my phone because I use the Facebook marketplace. I become really committed to like buying things secondhand. Like I really believe that the world has enough of everything in it and I don't necessarily need to buy something new. And so Facebook Marketplace is a really great resource for that. I wish that there was just an app for Marketplace alone. Once I'm on it, right? Then the real start flowing and oh, I get distracted. And so I do have to delete it. I don't have any control if it's on my phone. I was like, I have to use it and then delete it. What about you?

4:06Are you still off? Yeah. Yeah, I'm off of Instagram. It's been four years, I believe, right? It's been four years and recently I think we kind of did it at the same time, right? We did it at the same time. And I'm not regretting it. I'm not craving it. I don't even think about Instagram. I am happy without Instagram. I have to report. I don't think I will ever be an Instagram user or my account is deactivated. So somebody contacted me, a listener sent a voicemail the other day. They said, oh, I tried to find you on Instagram, but you're not there. I guess I was linked or mentioned somewhere as a podcast that I didn't have an account. They were surprised, but I have no intention on going. I don't regret my decision. Yeah, so I'm happy with that. I don't have Facebook on my phone. If I need to log in to Facebook and check my Facebook group, I go through my computer.

5:08And I have a stationary computer as you know, a desktop. I don't have a laptop. So I do that. But yeah, it can be tempting for sure. I should do that with the marketplace stuff. Like that's what I, you know, on a, like that's a good idea. I should kind of make that rule for myself, have this kind of like hard rule. I do Facebook marketplace for my desktop computer, not for my phone. But that's a good idea. I should do that. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm still a good user of my phone, meaning I don't have email on my phone. I don't have notifications, obviously of any kind. I don't know what do you use your phone for? Right. I don't have many apps. My phone is very bare. So do I use, I use the camera a lot because I take nature pictures and stuff. I call people, obviously I use it as a cell phone. I have the podcast up, the Spotify app. I have the texting function. Obviously we text people, but I'm not a big text.

6:09Mm hmm. Oh, really? You prefer to call? Oh, yeah. Or voice notes. I'm a big voice note person. I leave voice audio messages. I cannot have a text conversation. It's a generational thing. Don't get me started. I cannot type for hours or my thoughts or my, I cannot do that. I can text, okay, got it. See you at two. We'll be home. This is the type of text messages I do and I don't text with a lot of people. Whoever I text with is very brief. And I guess they're at the same generation as myself. That's all I use my phone for, right? It's the texting, the calling. I have Safari so I can search things and look up things. I have the Venmo app. I have the inside timer meditation app, which I use occasionally. Like calculator, the basic stuff, basically. I have this app called noise that tracks the ambient noise level.

7:12And I have this other app that I use called a listener recommended untold. You basically speak and it transcribes whatever you're saying. It's like a voice note. And I have substack since I started a substack, but I rarely click on it. I have dualingo. I used to do dualingo. That's it. That's basically like my phone is very bare. The weather app, like all the basic stuff. Yeah. So, but even with that, like you've tempted to pick it up to see who texted you, who didn't since I don't have notifications. But yeah. So let's talk about how we can help parents. I feel like before, as people who work with parents, as parent coaches, five or ten years ago, even, right, the advice we would give to parents is way different than what I would give parents today in terms of screen use technology, blah, blah, blah.

8:16Because before we were giving tips to parents to sort of control their children's tech use, but now it's everybody is using. And parents need help too. I feel like it's right. It has changed dramatically how we use, who uses it, how much it used to be. Oh, let your child watch 30 minutes show or, you know, whatever, two shows per day or one hour per day. I think that's outdated information this days because like everybody's on their devices all the time. I go to my pool. You won't believe it's a beautiful day. People are swimming and people are on their phones. I went to the beach. People are on their phones lying down under the sun. Everywhere you go, everybody is on their phone. People are no longer present in their experiences. So we can't give advice only for children. This is a big issue.

9:20You know, if you want to help the kids, yeah. Yeah, I agree with you completely. And I also noticed for myself that I am happy. When I forget about my phone, when I leave it in my car, if I'm going somewhere, if I, you know, for some, for whatever reason, lose it, you know, like there's, like I am happy. When that happens, I don't miss it. I don't think about it. Like I don't, you know, while I'm away from it, I don't think about like what I'm missing or anything, which feels good. I think that that's taken some time to get to, right? So some detoxing to get to that point. I feel really good about it. But one of the things that I've noticed for myself is that I, in order to do that, to forget about my phone, to lose it, to kind of leave it places, I have to be able to have other things to do with my hand or with my attention. Like when I go to a beach or to a pool, I bring a notebook with me so that I can jot things

10:21down or a physical book with me so that I can have something to do while, you know, I'm keeping an eye on the kids while they're swimming. What are some of the things that you do to make it easier to not just reach for your phone? Well, I think I'm a different generation. I hate to say it. Yesterday, prime example, my daughter and I waiting in line, both of us were waiting in line to be seen by this person. We were registering for something. And I'm just waiting. I'm not reaching for my phone. I'm looking at things, checking out the architecture, the design, you know, looking at people, their hairstyles, their jewelry. I'm just like looking around and I don't know, thinking to myself and like, I don't know, that's what I do. My daughter was on her, my daughter was next to me. She was just so fast. She was just, she's not even finishing them.

11:24Like fast, fast, fast, fast. And I said, oh my gosh, I said, you got to put your phone away. Like I'm getting nervous looking at you. Can you just, and she's talking to me too. She's engaging with me. She's talking to the person that the register is so off. Like, but it's, there's a difference, generational difference. I can do that. I can stay in line and be completely, I don't know, in my mind, in my thoughts, looking at people, talking to someone randomly. I'm okay with that. But this current generation, I feel like they are different. They need this. I feel like, I don't know, there's a difference. I can. I'm 52. Yeah, so I mean, I think one of the things, so before we hit record, we were talking about this book, Dupamitian Kids by, I can never say her name, Dr. McElene Dukeleff. Michaelint, is that it? Michaelint. Michaelint. Yes. Dukeleff. And in it, she was talking about waiting that what you can do, being able to stand in

12:30line and let your attention drift, noticing things, being aware, observing that that's a skill, that's a skill that you've developed over time, over your 52 years. And that for many people who've grown up with this technology, they don't have that skill. And I was thinking about, as I was reading this book, I was thinking about the fact that when I took my kids to restaurants or situations like that where they were going to have to wait, as young children, I never used my phone or an iPad or a device to help them with that. We developed the skills, you know, waiting rooms were for playing ice by at a restaurant, you know, we would find the most interesting thing on the menu or the most thing that we didn't want to eat, you know, like we, I helped them develop the skills. And so now when we go to a restaurant and they're waiting for their food or they're waiting to order, would they know how to talk to me? They, you know, do you know what I mean?

13:31Like I think I do think it's a skill, you know, that can be taught and can be learned. Yeah, yeah. And you have to teach it young, right? I did that with my daughter. Obviously, we didn't even have cell phones or iPads when she was growing up. No, of course not. Right? So, but we also were mindful when we introduced how we did and we never owned an iPad, for example, never. We never bought an iPad. That's why we never had iPad issues. Why would I bring something in, you know, like a device that then I have to worry about, about that device? So we never had an iPad in our household. And that's a skill I agree. And as a different generation, we developed it very well. That skill in me is very well developed. And my daughter, let's say I raised it like that. But what happened now that she has access, right? Now it's here. Is this thing that captures your attention, that regulates your attention, that draws your focus, of course, that it's so much easier.

14:34It is. It is to fall into, you know, I mean, it's a temptation for me too. If I have my phone on me while I'm waiting, you know, if I had it out to look at my shopping list when I'm in Trader Joe's and now I'm standing in line, like I have to mindfully put it away. And I mean, and it's even better if my shopping list is written down on paper because then I don't have to get it out, you know, like there's things that we use our phones for that we don't actually have to use them for so that we don't get it out. But of course, of course we all go for our phones when we're waiting in line or we have those down moments. You know what I mean? Because it's so much easier. It's that the world is at our fingertips. And yes, you know what I mean? I have so much compassion for these kids, you know, and for the parents who are in this world, like of course we're going for it. And you know, oh my gosh, I think about two sometimes I see parents who are, you know, they've got three kids are all over the place and their parents are obviously tired.

15:39And they just want to have a moment with coffee and peace of cool, like how wonderful that they have devices that can help these kids have their attention. And you know, be safe and comfortable while this parent can get just a moment of peace for themselves. Like this is, it's wonderful that we have these devices that have this technology. This technology has the power to be really, really helpful in so many ways. And I do think that we as parents have to be developing these other skills for ourselves and for our kids, right? Like there's a place for balance with it, you know? Well, exactly. I mean, any intervention you do, if people come to me, they say, hey, I want help. How can we help children to use less screens or have screen free meals or not have screens in their bedrooms? This is the one thing I say it has to be a family wide intervention. This is not for your kids only. This is for everyone. So screen type, any screen related tip has to be across the whole family, you know,

16:46not for the kids only. And obviously younger kids, what's the American Pediatric Association's recommendation in 2020? I think it's two hours a day. Two hours a day, but what's the age? Do they have an age limit? I think two. I think starting at two. That's what I thought. I meant to check that, but that's like too young. Don't you think? I mean, so I do think that there's a difference between like passive screen usage while when you're watching TV, right? Versus like active stuff where you're interacting with your caregiver, you're interacting with something, you know? Let's see. Okay, the American AI, Google AI tells me that the American Academy of Pediatrics updated its guidance to move away from rigid one size fits all time limits. Instead of counting strict minutes, the updated framework focuses on the five Cs child context

17:49co-viewing and crowding out. So basically, instead of giving you a strict time limit, focusing on, you know, what is it replacing, making sure all of their vast needs are being met in addition to, you know, the fun that screen time can give? I mean, I think that that makes sense. And at the same time, I think it's no, that makes sense because the previous advice we would give to parents, it was like, how much screen time is your child using that amount of time was restricted time, restricted time. That was the main advice, right? As opposed to as opposed to quality of it. What's the quality? Maybe this maybe it's co-viewing. Maybe I don't know what else the context is being used in, you know, making sure that they, you know, so in getting those two hours, does that mean they're not going for a walk in their neighborhood or playing at the park or learning to ride their bike? Do you know what I mean? Like those, what is it making you miss?

18:49I think that the crowding out of the one is really important to be thinking about. I mean, if obviously screens are here to stay, AI is here to stay, we're not going to get rid of any of this. But if your child, like oftentimes people are like, how much? People are still asking how much shall I allow, right? I think that's the wrong question. If your child has other activities, they have social friend groups, they have friends, they have sports, they have activities, they go outside, they interact with other kids, they co-play with other kids. Somebody comes to your home and they play video games. Like that's different than a child who locks themselves in their basement and plays video games like from hours on end and they don't have any life outside of that one video game activity. That virtual world. That virtual world. That's a concern. But if your child has a somewhat balanced life, right?

19:51They have school, they have extracurricular, some activities, they have friends, they socialize, they go out, they have kids come to your home and etc. And they also have screen use. Then that's a healthier approach. Screens are part of our life. Again, parents need to know what their children are up to on the internet, right? I'm not saying remove all the parental controls. Definitely I think aim for screen free meals and no phones in bedrooms for sure. But these are two big rules I think would definitely advise parents. The screen free meals for the whole family. At least if they cannot do all the meals screen free, start gradually, if you want to implement this as a rule, do one meal a week as a family without screens and then increase gradually

20:51and see how it feels, right? But bring in conversations, maybe conversation cards, maybe share, you know, some people do gratitude, different families have different traditions. But you're right, like there has to be something else to bind the group together. You can't just silently sit there, remove the phones, everybody will be grumpy and mad. For a while they will be. But the moment you create cohesiveness, togetherness, you know, the kids are engaged and there is connection, they will look forward to that kind of a meal. I absolutely agree. I think even if they complain about it, I think it's an okay rule to have, you know, and as I, like, you know, in this book, dopamine kids, she talks about having these bright line rules, these kind of big rules that are big, like statements for what you do. And I, like, there has to be room for real life, right?

21:55So there is going to be a time where maybe you've had a really like busy evening, you're coming together, like just, you know, you have 30 minutes to like before everybody has to start heading to bed and like, we want to wind down with a show and have like, watch a show together as a family while you eat dinner. Like, once in a while, I think that that's fine. I think we have to have some room for real life, for flexibility, for fun, you know? So like on Fridays, for example, we have a movie night where we eat dinner and watch a movie together. And that is our, like, that is not a screen free meal. Most of our other dinner time meals are screen free. And I feel really good about that rule, you know? No, but when I say screen free, I mean, like, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm like, when I say meals with screens, I mean, everybody's on their cell phones, like co-viewing and moving together, that's different than everybody's on their cell phones. Like, have you seen different about that? Like, what's qualitatively different about that for you? Because it feels different to me too, but I don't know that I've ever really articulated why that feels different than the individual screens versus the co-viewing.

23:01Individual screens are, you know, you're in your own world. You don't know what everybody is doing. And the screens have the capacity to pull you in, lure you in. You're not in the present moment with your family members. You are either chatting with someone, you're elsewhere, right? With your screen, you can go anywhere you want. You're not present. You're eating a meal, but you don't even know what you're eating. You're just mechanically in your body. You're not in your body. You're not present. You're not present with other people. And handheld devices are more dangerous than a big screen TV in the room. It's not as addictive per se, because the handheld device is more alluring, is more engaging. And it puts you more in control because you, with the touch of a button, you can enable things. You can scroll, you can press, right? It gives you more control of what you can do. Whereas the TV is just playing there.

24:03It needs larger, also the size of the screen matters too for your eyesight. I feel like the content is, if you're watching on a larger screen, your perception, your, I don't know near scientifically what happens in the brain, but it's a different quality when you're viewing on a large screen. So for one, I know one thing, like when a person is, when we're stressed out, our vision narrows down, right? Our pupils dilate and our vision narrows down, because when you're stressed or there's a threat in the environment, you have to focus on the source of the threat. And so you're, you have this laser sharp vision, but your field is narrow. It's not wide. And when we are on our devices, we narrow the field of perception for the visual field. We automatically narrow it. So it sort of tells your brain, you're under danger.

25:04There is a threat. There is a threat. It sort of triggers your stress response in the background all the time, because of you. It's like the feedback loop. Yeah. That's telling you there's a threat. Right. And that's what happens. That's why people are more anxious, edgy. You know, you can have a nice conversation with your kid. It happened to me multiple times. Your presence, you're having a conversation with your child, and then they pick up their phone. They read a message or they are part of a conflict or something like that. We don't know what they are seeing or viewing or what they're part of. Then you're like, Hey, by the way, can we, and you ask a like an innocent question, then they bark at you, then they yell at you, then they explode. You're like, wait, what happened? Five minutes ago, we were having a nice conversation. You know, but the screen is just takes you away. So the wider screen doesn't push that, that doesn't activate that stress response, because the postural thing I mean, yeah, when you're punched over your phone, I was talking to

26:06it. You are not breathing very well. You're not breathing very well. You're not getting oxygenated properly. Your heavy, heavy, just like cowering. Like cowering in a cave kind of in your body thinks like, oh gosh, we're hiding. You know, and so then the body thinks like we're in danger. Yeah, you're so right. Versus like if you're lean back and watching a show in front of you, you're not at the posture isn't the same as like punching over your phone on an individual device. Definitely. It's the posture. It's the eyesight division. You know, the small device in your hand triggers that stress response. Like I said, it gives you more control. It's and I'm sure there's other things. So definitely there is a difference. Okay. So having like individual screen free meals regularly on like on a regular basis, if not, you know, all the time, right? So like, I mean, the individual screen free rule is a consistent rule for my whole family.

27:11Like we don't do that when we're eating a meal. We don't do that either. And that rule has been in place since my kids were tiny. I even have a video. I was like video taping my oldest daughter eating like a dessert we had made together. And she like she looked up at me like in the video, she's like, mom, no phones at the table. You know, like I have that captured on video. Like I think she was like three. I like we had made pie and I wanted to send a video of like the pie to my to my mom. But I was like, you're right. No phones at the table. Like so that like that has been a consistent rule in our family for a long time. And I'm very grateful that I started out that way. Like I'm very grateful that rule is such a deeply ingrained rule in our family. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Now that they're getting older that, you know, that will keep that rule going. No phones at the table, you know, is a consistent rule. You know, that just grandma and grandpa still get called out on when they're at our house.

28:11You know, like it's really like it is a one of those bright line rules that they talk about in dopamine kids. What about devices in bedrooms? Because that is a big one. Well, yeah, it is. But I want to say one more thing about real time. I think in just in general, I feel like when parents are after their children about screen use and device use and tech use and all of this, somehow we come from a more negative place than a more positive place. And here's what I mean. They say, you don't have your phones at the meal time. That's it. That's a rule. But I always tell parents frame the benefit why we're having screen free meals, not because it's a punishment. But because we're framed like we want to have children, we want to have more connected and engaged meals as a family together. Instead of this punishment, everybody give me your phone. I'm going to lock it. Like when we come from this punitive place, we face resistance.

29:13But when you come from a more positive place, and I have this approach to anything when it comes to parenting, if you're having a hard time brushing your child's teeth, many parents are like, you're going to get cavities. Blah, blah, blah. We're going to go to a dentist. They're going to scare tactics. Instead frame it more the benefit. We want to have healthy teeth. We brush because we want to have shiny, bright, white, healthy teeth. Right? Always come with the positive, the benefit. And sometimes maybe kids will not understand the younger kids. But I think the attitude matters, how we speak matters. It changes things. It changes the flavor of the conversation and the relationally. I think when it comes to implementing new rules as a family regarding screen time, think of the benefits as opposed to the negative. It's enough. You've been on your device the whole day. Give me your phones. You know, because that's a wishy-washy approach. I think when you want to create some kind of change in your family, you have to think about,

30:20am I going to commit to this? Maybe on this podcast, people are listening and they're like, yeah, screen free meal sounds fantastic. I'm going to implement. But how realistic is it for your family? Do you really want to do it? It's going to take effort. It's going to take, you're going to face resistance. You're going to feel some tension. But if you persevere, it's going to be wonderful. Right? I feel like a lot of parents come up with rules on the fly, wishy-washy. It sounds good in the moment. Then they don't follow through because it's hard. I feel like anything we do in parenting, we have to, first of all, say, is this applicable for me for my family? Number one, and number two, the why behind I'm implementing this rule? And the number three would be to highlight the benefits as opposed to the punitive or the negative. That's what are you getting from it? Yeah. We want to have connected, engaged family meals.

31:23I feel like this is what's happening, children. And from now on, we're going to have at least one meal as a family. And imagine if you're having six meals together and five are with devices and one is screen-free and you're engaged and everybody is relaxed and enjoying themselves and it feels qualitatively different for the children. And then when you increase gradually, let's say, let's have two or three meals, they will come along because it feels good when we will feel good to them. If you frame it positively, instead of the negative, I left my phone and I went to grocery shopping and my daughter had to pick me up. It feels great not to have that weight. Like it feels like something is lifted off of you when you don't have your phone with you. And children are humans. They feel the difference. Yeah, they do. They do. Yeah.

32:23And again, it has to be a family-wide effort. Start small and build gradually, whatever rule you want to instill. Again, be realistic about modern life and your own life. And again, I am sure you would agree, focus on collaboration, right? Not authority. Absolutely. Like, so having the, like, if we're thinking about collaboration, right? So especially if you've got older kids sitting them down and asking them, what they want a family meal to feel like, you know, what they like best about family meals when they feel most connected to us, when do they feel, you know, the best about going into their busy evenings, you know, like asking them some of those questions, you know, and seeing what they say. Like, I really like it when, you know, you listen to my day and you're not distracted by your device, like getting them to say some of those things out loud can also really help with buy-in, you know, really at, like, and helping them, like, feel like they were a part of making the decision.

33:25Because I think as much as kids don't want to have their devices taken away, they want connection with us even more. They want that connection, that feeling with us even more. And so focusing in on like, how do you want to feel, you know, when do you feel most connected with us? You know what I mean? Like, those are good questions. Absolutely. Absolutely asking. That's, no, that's brilliant point. As you said, it wonderfully. And like you said, I think the biggest one is us being positive role models and applying the same rules, you know, that that's the biggest one, I think. And when I say meal time, this is another thing. I've been talking to clients about this. I don't know if you see this. You know, people are rushed and hurried. People buy food. People have take out. And all those things, people order food. And every member of the family orders different things. Meal time doesn't look the same as when we were growing up or generations before. So we have to be realistic about that.

34:28But I think even with that, you can aim to have togetherness, right? And when I say meal time, I mean everything, prepping the food, setting the table, eating part, cleaning part. To me, that's the meal time. Not just the sheer act of consuming the food. Settling the food in the mouth. That is not meal time. Meal time includes multiple steps. And if we engage our children, that meal time shouldn't be. Kids are playing video games and or everybody's on their devices. Mom hits up something rapidly or orders something, puts on the table. Come on, kids, come and eat. Of course, kids come eat fast and leave again to their devices. If you want to change meal time, no, it's going to be a complete overhaul. Ideally, what I would propose is, and this is why I'm saying, like, listen to this advice,

35:30but take it with the grain of salt. If it's not going to be applicable for your family, don't do it. Meal time should be the whole thing. Let's prep the food together. Even if you're heating the food, kids should be involved in the entire process. Because that's another thing. And one more activity, they are away from the screens. Right? They need to be part of the process, setting the table together, cleaning together, eating together, taking out things from the fridge, warming up the food, or making a salad, washing the fruits. It all has to be part of the meal time. Children need to participate in all of those activities. And when they do, they feel more efficacy, sense of autonomy, sense of contribution. Children, one thing I said this earlier, and I'm sorry, like I'm talking so much, one thing my Glean writes in her book is about the needs, right?

36:31Children have needs, emotional needs, and we all do. And I feel like when the needs are not met, they seek other indirect ways of meeting those needs. They gravitate towards devices, for sure. It's easy, it's out there. And it provides sort of like a full way of meeting the need, but you feel empty. And so when your child is helping you set the table, prep the food, hit the food, chop up the vegetables, make a salad, clean up the table, and all of that, they feel part of the family. They feel they have a sense of purpose, they have a sense of purpose, they feel the sense of belonging, it hits so many needs in just one activity that it will automatically diminish screen use over time. Because if a child feels seen, valued, connected, they feel like they belong, they feel efficacious when they prep a food and the whole family ate it and all of those things

37:34that makes a big difference. But what do we do these days? Kids don't do anything, they just come and eat the food or they grab and go to their bedrooms to play the game. That is not meal time. Like we have to rethink everything and change how we think about meal time. What do you think about all of this? I agree and I also think it can feel really overwhelming for parents too. I think about the parents who have kids who are in baseball or kids who are in dance, they've got smooth lessons and religion classes and they're running here and there, it feels impossible to do something like this every day, every night. So maybe the answer is pick one night a week where we really take a look at meal time as a whole. And maybe it doesn't have to be every kid every night. So you've got four kids. I can't even imagine having four kids in my kitchen all at once. That would be chaos. But they can do different things.

38:35Who says they all have to do it? Of course they can't. But they can divide the same kind of. All at the same time. Yes, so getting creative, thinking about the kid themselves, what they lean towards. I absolutely agree that having them involved is the very best for them and for us and for the family. I think starting this very young is also incredibly important if you can. So if the listener has young kids at two or three, they are not too young to start doing this. They're actually in an ideal time because two, three, four year olds, there's nobody more helpful. There's nobody more eager to be involved than an older toddler. They want to help. They want to use the broom. They want to use the things that they see you using. They're biologically programmed to do that, to be helpful because that's how they're going to learn how to be a human. And so starting young is absolutely so important and making the home accessible in that way.

39:40There's, you know, we keep our dishes in load drawers so that when our kids were younger, they could unload the dishwasher and set the table independently without having to get a stool up to get the dishes out. You know what I mean? Like using, like just creating a home that is supportive of that is another layer of this. And it can also feel overwomen, so you don't have to do everything at once. One of the things that my community and I have been talking about in my membership lately is thinking about what could I do that would make this, like would move us 10% towards our goal. You know, so it doesn't have to be all or nothing. And we don't have to overhaul our playroom right now. We don't have to overhaul our meal time, you know, right now. But what would be one small thing, one small doable thing that we could do right now, to build into the fabric of our days that would make this easier? I think can be a little bit more accessible because it can feel really overwhelming.

40:40And I don't know about you, but when I get overwhelmed, I just don't want to do anything. Like I just want to flop on the couch. But also let's remember what contributes to our overwhelm. I think we also need to look at our own screen use, right? That takes a lot of time and depletes you. It doesn't make you feel great, right? So that's part of the overwhelm is seeing other people's glamorous lives. They are vacationing. You have FOMO part of the overwhelm is the screen and the social media. Let's just be honest about that. A second, what it should look like, what it should look like, what, you know, that creates the perfectionism, the comparison, the FOMO, you waste time, you feel depleted, you feel anxious, you feel isolated, you feel less connected, you constantly consume information. And too much information is a source of stress, right? Information doesn't necessarily turn into knowledge. Like why are we consuming so much garbage, right?

41:42Why? So much gigabytes of information every day, visual, audio, I think that's part of the overwhelm is apparent. Like you're well-being, get rid of the social media, get rid of all those things that are draining you so that you can be, you know, better and healthier in your own life. Same goes for the kids over scheduling kids and running here and there. I mean, we have apparent, like modern life has conveniences, right? But why are we still overwhelmed and why are we struggling so much? Like look at our grandparents, they didn't have a dishwasher, they didn't have laundry machines, they didn't have robot vacuum cleaners, they didn't have uber eats or door dash or anything. Like, and life feels a lot harder even. We have access to more conveniences and like supportive technologies and appliances.

42:44I mean, isn't it interesting? Yeah, it is. It's interesting that like despite the fact that we have more supposedly supportive technology than ever, we still feel more overwhelmed than any other generation, you know, before us. Yeah, it is interesting. It's interesting to think about. And the sense of time, we feel like we don't have time. We're rushing all the time. I think it's important to, and I have a few podcast episodes about this. I have done, maybe I can mention them in the beginning, in the intro for the listener, you know, like about doing nothing to feel less overwhelmed. Like there are so many podcasts I've done in the past now that I'm speaking about this. They're coming to my mind. I will mention the titles. But speaking of screen time, how about screen time and bedtime? That's a big one. Mm. I mean, I think that the, you know, our instinct is that we know,

43:48like we know intuitively, like that screens before bed don't help us sleep better. Like we all know that, right? There's research that tells us that. And at the same time, there's this sum allure to like the kind of the veging out, the relaxing that, you know, that we think is actually going to be happening. But I don't, I mean, I don't think that that actually helps us sleep better, you know? I don't know that there's any evidence to suggest that screen time before bed is supportive. I think having a buffer of real interaction and a bedtime routine that is screen free is really important. And not again, not just for kids, for adults too. Yeah, I agree. I mean, and they should not be charging their, like, all their children should know. I definitely know like devices in bedrooms. Definitely not handheld devices because they get up and they use it. And no matter what, I think that's, like, that should be a family-wide rule. I feel like parents have to obey that rule too. You can't just reinforce that rule only with kids.

44:50Everybody has to obey that rule for everyone's well-being and happiness. And again, framing the benefits of sleep, coming with that instead of like a punishment, you know, you can't have your phone in your bedroom, blah, blah, blah, but no, how important sleep is. Let's have conversations about that. And let's watch a pet talk about that or listen to a podcast or read a book together as a family and discuss the benefits and what we can do about that. Yeah, it's important. Especially as the school year is about to begin in my state, you know? And schools have band phones in my state and in your state. So this is going to be a very interesting school year. What do you think? Like, what are your predictions? Or what do you think is going to happen? Kids go to school. They are not using their phones. Do you think after they come home, they're going to want to stay up late. And the usage is going to increase. Like, what are your predictions?

45:50I mean, so my town, like the town that I live in, the high school band phones last year. So ahead of the statewide ban, and I have two, I mean, enough, you are both high school students in that school. And their general experience of it for themselves and for their friends, that it was very positive. The kids didn't care. They didn't miss their phones. They were glad. It made it feel, you know, particularly for like my, you know, these enough you who are good students, it felt more equitable. Like it felt like people were paying attention and more engaged. They got to connect with their friends in a different way. It was a very positive experience from the, like the feedback that I thought from kids, from the teenagers themselves. I find that really interesting, but I can imagine that there will probably be more, you know, I don't like, I mean, we're like our kids doing like video games in school all day long.

46:50And so then like now that they're not able to, they'll want to do it more. I have no idea. I mean, like I have my own thoughts about just the, I don't know the ways in which kids never get a break from the, you know, think about like in the, you know, going to high school in the 90s and early 2000s, before all of this came to be, you know, if I had a bad day at school with, you know, social issues, you know, whatever, I would get a break from that at home. I'd be able to come home, you know, after my team practice, have dinner with my family, work on my homework, maybe call a friend on the phone, you know, but I had a break from the broader social environment. Kids don't get that now and that feels really hard. I can imagine that that's really hard to deal with because it continues. It starts on social media in school and then continues, you know, the Snapchat and the Instagram, like it just,

47:51it feels relentless and that's something that I worry about. I worry for this generation of kids who just are not getting that, I don't know that break, that kind of that ability to just let their shoulders relax. Do you know what I mean? Because when you're out in the world, you have to, like, especially as a team, like your peers perceptions are so important to you, you have to be on all the time in that way, like that we're connected with our phones. It just feels like there's, I don't know, there's just no time to be off, no reprieve. Yeah, no way to retreat. I don't know, it seems really hard. With all of that said, like, I know my daughter and her friends, I want to give credit to the kids too. Kids are not dumb. They also know what's good for them, what's bad for them in terms of like screen news and social media. And what I hear conversations, I'm like, I want to give credit to the kids. You know, what I hear, I'm like, wow, like they know this. Like they talk about digital footprint, what to pose.

48:53They warn each other about the dangers of certain things. They're not dumb. I was talking to one mom who is so adamant about like, my child is on the screens all the time and I'm going to ban. I'm going to do this. Like comes from this like traditional old parenting kind of, as I said, like, parenting advice for screen use is different now in 2026 than in like five years ago, right? But this woman is still like, and we're all stuck in that old model. We don't know what to do. And so I asked her, I said, have you had conversations with your child? She's like, what kind of conversations I can have? Like, it's bad. I want him off the screens. That's it. I said, no, no, no, I said, kids know a lot more than we do. And there are, there are things we can learn from them as well. She said, like what? I said, well, I'm going to give you homework. And this is not my client. This is just, this is just a friend. I said, do you know what the deep fake is? She said, no, what is it?

49:54I said, that's the homework. Go ask your 16 year old to explain to you what the deep fake is. And then I said, also children have like fake Instagrams, fenced us every child almost has the second account. I said, why don't you? It's like, no, my child will never have that. But I said, no, just talk about be open minded, come from a learning place. No judgment. Just ask questions and learn. Two days later, she contacted me. She said, how did you know it was the best conversation I had with my kid. It was so connecting. He took his time. He explained and they felt so connected together as a parent and child. So I think coming from, you know, it's not all bad curiosity. It's not all bad. Screens are not the enemy. They are not bad. I think they're bad for the younger kids. When I see like kids in shopping cards and restaurants and all of that, like, that's bad. There is bad use of phones.

50:57But let's give credit to our kids too. Like my daughter also knows, she's like, oh, I had enough. I'm just going for a walk. I was on my phone the whole day. They also know what feels good, you know, and having ongoing conversations about your own well-being, about mental health and screen use, about different topics. Instead of just banning or saying it's not good, get off, you had enough. I think it's important to come from that angle. You know what I mean? Like having conversations, being curious and learning together. And discussing everything with kids. Yeah, discussing it. And the reality is is that they are going to go out into the world and not be under our roof. And they're going to have to figure out how to manage their own screen time someday. And so just like we, you know, on the one hand, we would never, like, when our kid turned 16, just hand them car keys and say, okay, good luck.

52:01You know, with no drivers, Ed, no practice driving, like, we would never do that. We shouldn't do that with devices either. We shouldn't just hand them a phone that puts them in, like, able to access the entire world, which is what they can do in a phone and say, like, okay, good luck. Right? Like so we should definitely teach them along the way. We should model. We should discuss lots of like guidance. But at some point, we're going to have to step back and let them figure things out. For themselves too. And there's an on ramp for that. There's a slow on ramp. And, you know, it was interesting. You, you sent these research studies to me before we started talking about this. And in both of them, they talked about how using screen time as a form of reward and punishment actually promotes more screen time use. And then I'm relating this to what you're saying. Because you're talking about having conversations, right?

53:02Having curiosity, having dialogue, getting curious about how you feel after you've spent your day on your phone versus how you feel when you've forgotten where it is. You know, like, those conversations are so important. Having the, like, the harsh, hardline rules that aren't informed by their goals, their values, your goals, your values, it's very different. And it has actual outcomes for kids. Kids are more likely to be and engage in cyberbullying when we use harsh limits, when we use screens as punishments and rewards. And they spend more time on their devices. As, you know, if our goal with using screen limits is to keep them off their devices, the research is pretty clear of that using them as a reward or a punishment actually increases kids overall time on screens. So it's doing the exact opposite thing of what we're thinking it's going to. Yeah. And when a parent uses, we said this on the podcast like a while ago, when a parent uses a screen

54:04as a reward or punishment, you know what the child burns. If I encounter a problem, I'm never coming to my parent because my device will be taken away. It's not, they don't trust to come to the parent. If they're being sextorted or bullied cyberbullet online, they will not come to you. If you use as a punishment or order reward. Yeah. So the era for punishment and reward parenting for screens is gone. That's why conversations and open-ended questions, open-ended questions is so useful. Like, instead of saying, get off your phone. You've been on it too much. Ask your question. How much is too much, do you think? How do you spend when you're scrolling and you're seeing reels? What do you think about blah, blah, blah? How do you feel about that? Have open-ended conversations and hear what they have to say. And you speak about your own experience. You know, I think we should be honest about that.

55:05And instead of seeing us versus them, you know, that divide is gone. We're all in this together now. It has to be, oh, can I tell a story? Of course. I'm going to read a real life example of this. So last summer, I had set up this kind of system for earning screen time. I'm loving this already. You know, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I had really good education. You were using the old parenting advice. Yeah. Well, the system was developed collaboratively with my kids. They wanted more screen time in the summer. They, you know, and I wanted them to build certain habits. And so we worked together to kind of talk about what are each of our priorities were, you know, what was important. So we developed it collaboratively. But what the reality of it was was I felt like I was constantly being asked for more screen

56:06time that I spent more time monitoring them doing the household tasks that were part of it that are just kind of part of living in a house, you know, taking the business dog for a walk. You know, we have a pool in our backyards, a skimming, the pool in vacuuming, the pool, just kind of tasks that they need to do this summer going into summer. I was like, I do not want to do that again. That was a lot of emotional and mental labor for myself. I did not like being feeling like I was the, you know, the dispenser of all screen time. Like that was not a fun experience for me. So went into it. I kind of laid out the kind of like, you still need to do your things, you know, so the dog still has to get walked, watered fed. If you want to use the pool, you need to be the person vacuuming it and skimming it, you know, like if you want to have friends over the house has to be tidy and it has to be tidy when they leave, you know, just talking about kind of what the expectations are. And they were like, well, what about screens? I was like, you know, what, honey, like it's summer at like my main priority for you is

57:08that you have a balanced summer that you spend time relaxing, that you spend time being creative, that you spend time being social and you know, part of that will be like there will be screens. Do you know how little time they've spent on screens this summer? Like so much less than the summer before. So much less because they're not focused on, they're not focused on earning it when they ask, hey, can I watch a show? Sure. You know, like, and it's way less stress for me. And they literally ask for it like so much less. It was an experiment that I was doing, but I'm blown away by the results. It's an amazing story. It's a great experience because you have the last year's experience and this year's experience, you're right. Like the prohibited fruit is always more a luring. And you become the policeman and the supervisor and it's so awful. Like your role as a parent. It's awful. It's awful. Yeah. I agree. I agree. That's why like, yeah, this is a great story.

58:10I'm not going to comment on it. I like that. What else can we say? I mean, Anna, too. The part of it is is that there's, it's really important that parents listening here, that like, you can try things. You can experiment with things. You can work together with your kids to try something. Realize it doesn't work and try something else, you know, like that. And you're not going to have like, you Anna don't have all the answers me. Laura, of course, I don't have all the answers. The parent isn't going to have all of the answers. There's going to be, there has to be room for things to be a little messy, to be in the moment of figuring it out together as a family. Like that's, that's not something to avoid, I guess, you know, and then it can have really great outcomes for you. You can learn what doesn't work for our family, you know, and get closer to what does. I, you know, like, I just, I think sometimes a lot of people feel like, I've got to get this right, you know, I've got it. This is my chance here now. I've got to get it right. And I think we have to start, we have to take a little bit more of a curious, experimental

59:12view to some of this, hold it a little loosely and just see, well, you know, okay, we're trying something new, seeing what works, we're seeing how we feel, you know, like there's a holding it all a little bit more loosely as opposed to thinking like, this is my chance, I've got to get it right, you know, I think that really locks us into stuff and creates more stress. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I mean, and I think I hope people will listen to this episode from the beginning to end and I will include other episodes in the show notes related to screen time that we have done in the past dopamine kids episode as well, you know, to end. When my daughter turned 18, I had parental controls, right, on my phone, like she had, when she first got the phone, we created some rules and those were the like basic rules for like four years or something, maybe more throughout high school and middle school, right? But when she turned 18, Apple notified me, they said, you no longer can control their screen

1:00:13use. And I'm like, what do you mean, the Apple? And you know what, my, and we didn't have too many rules, right? So we had 20 minutes on Snapchat, 15 minutes on Instagram and she could ask for more time and things like that. And down time, that was the main one. She had downtime from like evening time to 7 30 a.m. or something in the morning. That all vanished. I was curious like, what's going to happen because my daughter was used to a certain type of amount and behavior with her device. You know what she said? She said, Mom, did you notice like all my screen time is vanished? Like I don't have any screen time. I said, yes, because you're 18 now. She said, I don't like this. Can you somehow put those things back on? Yeah, because she was using them. They were helpful. They were helpful like she recognized that, but honestly, there's no way of doing that. Well, she can put them on her phone. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. That's the only way you can do it. We learned that that you have to do it through your own phone.

1:01:16And I think she did some of the things on her phone. I don't know what she has now, but she was very surprised. She didn't like that feeling. You know, that it was too much. She was used to a certain way. You know, so kids know the difference. Having guardrails on feels good to kids. It feels good. It feels safe knowing that there's, you know, that there are, I mean, this is why we say that kids need limits and guidance. They want it because they know they need it. And there's this long on ramp, you know, and I love that though. I love that she wanted, you know, some of that, that, that, that, that, that, that, she wanted back. That lines back. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's really great to hear. Yeah. So let's conclude this episode. What are the main things that we keep saying? I think one of the things I'm saying is it's not about time per se. You had too much time. You had too much time. That's old, old news already.

1:02:16We have to parent differently. And it has to be a family wide intervention, whatever rules we create, it has to apply to all of us. Meal time, bad time, that kind of stuff. I think that's the main, main thing that I'm saying. If it were up to me, like younger kids would not have devices, I would not expose my below five. If I would not, it's not my place to recommend people anything. If I had a baby now, I would not give a phone or iPad. I would not buy an iPad period. Don't buy an iPad. Like you don't need an iPad. You don't need to give that to your child. That's not a need and all the research about, I was reading this book actually. I was thinking about you because you did your major, right? A research in reading and stuff. I mean, you're familiar maybe with this book. It's called Reader Come Home. Reading, deep reading in a digital agent. Like how we're losing it and what does to the brain. Most of this stuff that is framed as educational and all of that is BS for kids, kids learn from

1:03:21books from human beings, better research says that. Maybe we should both read that book and do an episode about it. There is a lot of good stuff in it. Yes, especially that's like, I know you, that's your strength. What are you saying in conclusion to this episode? Yeah, I think modeling what we want to see for our kids is always going to be one of my first parenting recommendations, right? And technology uses no different. I think having those conversations and discussions that are grounded in curiosity and connection is always going to be really important. Reading phones and individual devices out of bedrooms and holding a meal time sacred on a regular basis to the extent that you can. And having those moments with your kids where you are modeling for them and maybe helping

1:04:23them develop skills so that they can be off their different. I think circling back to a conversation we had at the beginning, I just wanted to highlight that piece of, okay, so if we're taking away the device at meal time, we might need to put some, like some skill practice, some skill building in place. How do we have a conversation? Do we need to have some conversation cards to some tools to support us? You know, can we play a card game during it? And when we're figuring that out so that we have some structure for us, if we are taking it, you know, if we're leaving our car or our devices at home instead of taking them with us out into the world, we have to have some things in our back pocket to help them build skills for them and for us too, right? So like, I take my knitting with me now or I take a hard copy book with me now. And when I take my daughter to Jiu Jitsu instead of pulling out my phone to look through things, you know. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I agree. I think just having those, like, you can't just take away something with a replacement.

1:05:29Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that takes time. That takes built skills that they all need time to build. And you need time to be able to do that. Yeah, when you replace them, let's say you took the phone away and you are doing kneading, it's not the same effect. kneading is going to feel boring at first because the screen is more alluring. It's fast. It's amazing. It's colorful, right? You get to do many things. You also as an adult or as a child, I think you need some time for them to adjust to the new activity. Don't say, oh, I replaced it. It didn't work. And let's give the devices back. I think I don't want people to feel like because if you replace it with something, it's not going to feel the same right away, but it will eventually do stick with it. It doesn't have it. It does. Yes, I agree. And kids will gravitate towards it. Honestly, they love that. Yeah, interesting. I'm sure we will talk about screen time again in the coming year and see how the new

1:06:29statewide ban is going. Yeah, I'm curious how it goes for your community. I know my child is not in school anymore. I'm so happy about that. Yes, yeah. No more school for us. I want to thank you again for joining me and I will do an episode about this reading with you. I would love to do that. Yes, that's me the book. I would love to do that. Yeah. Thank you so much. That concludes today's conversation, my dear listener. And I hope you found this episode helpful and inspiring. Be sure to hit that follow button so you don't miss future episodes and take a moment to live a rating and review. It really helps others find the show. I would love to hear your thoughts and takeaways. In the conversation in the Authentic Parenting Facebook group or visit the contact page at AuthenticParenting.com slash Contact to get in touch. Authentic Parenting is an ad free show and your donations is what makes this podcast possible.

1:07:35Support the show by visiting AuthenticParenting.com slash support or becoming a patron at patreon.com. Your contributions make it possible for me to continue bringing you weekly episodes. And as always, connect to the present moment to yourself and your children. Until next week, I am Anna Seawold. Thank you so much for listening. This episode was edited and produced by Aminur. If you need expert support to bring your dream podcast to life from editing to full production, Aminur can help make it happen. You'll find his link in the show notes.