The Refreshed Leafs + Training Camp Preview w/ James Mirtle

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1:08It's good to have optimism. You know, nobody wants to be around the person that's just pessimistic all the time. And listen, we live in, I would say, fairly pessimistic times. Right? Like, you know what's going on. If you plugged in at all, like you got social media, you've turned on television set, you've looked at the internet. Yeah, some days can be harder than others. And yet still, it's so much better when you can go into something with hope. When you can go into something, feeling like, you know, things are a little different this time around. I think there's a reason that X could happen. Whatever that X is. And that's the way that I feel about the Toronto Maple Leafs. And something that I've been saying for years and years, and years, is that the product feels a little flat. It feels a little stale. Ultimately, yes, are you trying to win a Stanley Cup? No question about it. And whatever you're doing, that's going to be, that's going to be the

2:12most entertaining product of all. If you could ever win, if you could ever get over this horrific hurdle of not having a championship since 1967. And this is not going to be planned the parade talk. This is going to be about entertainment product, which is simply this. The Toronto Maple Leafs feel refreshed coming in to the 2026, 2027 season. What that will be? I feel as though there is a very wide variety of outcomes. Could this end up being a disaster? Could this end up in calamity? Absolutely. Things are on the table, baby. There are, there are some spooky things that could happen with this hockey team. Got an old goalie. They got a captain who's not under contract. They've got a former captain who's getting up there in age. They've got a, you know, top five pick defenseman who's been in the rumor mill for, I don't know how long now two full seasons, at least one full season that they didn't end up moving. Like, you know, the drill. And then there's the upside.

3:15There's the refresh. There's something else about this, which is one, maybe this guy is healthy. Maybe that he is going to be able to turn the clock back a little bit. You're captain. They got the first overall pick in the NHL draft. Somebody who has been pretty widely debated in terms of what is immediate impact is going to be. But to my eye and to the eye of many, he's pretty damn skilled. I think much like in his college career, even if things don't start unbelievably well, my guess is is that the talent is going to win out. And you've got somebody that's pretty exciting and pretty compelling to watch. You've brought in a new number one defenseman, a team that frankly didn't shoot the puck very hard, a team that hasn't had a guy like this since pretty much Brian McCabe. Because if you want to throw Tyson Berry in that mix, I got news for you like that. That stood out to you because yeah, he hadn't had somebody like that and so long. Yes, they had Dion Fennuff. But to me, he was more famous with the hard shot for

4:19missing the net than actually putting it on the net. They've got to completely revitalize bottom six. Will it provide secondary scoring? Are there questions about these guys' contracts and what they're going to be able to contribute and how they're going to mesh together? Absolutely. Is it a given? Is it a certainty no, but it's compelling because it's refreshing. It's something new. It's not the same old coming into this season. Hey, what's up with the Leafs and doing the same group, the same guys, the same players at the very top and the rest of the roster. It feels different. Maybe a lot of this is just Gavin McCanaugh. Maybe a lot of this is Darren Radish. Maybe a lot of this is having a brand new goal tender. But it's also a brand new head coaching staff with, you know, let's call it what it is. One of the organizations, one of the fan bases most bitter rivals also sitting next to that head coach on the bench, standing next to that head coach on the bench, a new front office that was heavily scrutinized when they were the

5:21ones that were decided upon after this long and detailed process that they went through after all the talk and all the noise. It was a group that most people didn't see coming. And yet, if you're just looking at it on paper, it's kind of satiated the fan base. Again, you won the lottery. You picked first overall. That's going to have an impact on the way that the fan base is feeling about the team in general. That being said, you know, a lot of these signings, a lot of these decisions that have happened feel refreshed. And even yesterday when, you know, they meet with the media for the first time. And Jake has asked about Matthew Nies, friend of the show who, you know, discussed those trade rumors yesterday. He got to bury the old organization. He said, hey, sure we had maybe a nice conversation there. But they were just, they were just trickled down, left over effects. They were just, it was the other guys. They did the talking. And then some people circled back. And of course, we picked up the phone. But that's not who we are.

6:26We're a new regime. This is a new thing. I don't remember a season since like, frankly, the beginning of the the core four era where it felt this new, this revitalized, this different, where there were so many things to talk about that didn't feel the exact same. Like, I don't want to, this isn't meant to be rude and to crap on guys who have been here before. But like, does it feel nice to not have, hey, is this Nick Robertson's year where he's going to be a guy conversation? Like, I can't do it anymore. I cannot do this anymore. Hey, is awesome. I was going to play with Mitch Marner. Is he going to play with William Neal at like, how, are they going to break up Mitch Marner? They're going to break up all some Matthews. I know they didn't have that last year. But still it was very much like Mitch Marner had just left. And so a lot of the conversation still was about kind of these two guys. How are they replacing him? Who is Matthews going to play? It's different. It's nice to have it feel different. I think you're going to have a more engaged

7:28audience with this team. Yeah, I said yesterday to born. There's going to be pressure with this group. There is absolutely downside with this group. That's, that's not what I'm alluding to here. But ultimately when we choose to watch these games, we have to understand that it isn't only about winning the Stanley Cup. Yes, you know, you're, I feel blasphemous to say that. Part of it is that it's an entertainment product. Do you want to watch it? Do you feel excited to watch it? And can we just be transparent and say, there were long stretches, not just because of the results last season, but because of who they were, where it felt tired. It felt repetitive. It felt like you were doing basically the same seasonal arcs with the Toronto Maple Leafs for the past three years. And the most interesting storyline of last season or the most talked about storyline of last season, being the departure of a hometown kid and how people felt about that was not great for TV. It was not great for a watch. So the Toronto Maple Leafs are fun. They are. I don't know what to tell you. I said, it's better to be an optimist than to be a pessimist and

8:30going around and be impesimistic all the time isn't really going to get you anywhere. But I will say is I just I don't know how somebody could make the case that this is not coming into the season a more compelling product that you feel is certain about the way that this season's going to go as you did say last year. There's a wide variety of outcomes. And that, my friends, makes this team extremely interesting with a lot of new players, a lot of new staff and a brand new front office. How's it going to play out? We're going to find out in a couple of weeks. My friend James Mertle will see if he feels refreshed. He's back on the show. What's up, buddy? How are we doing? Feel refreshed. How will you feel refreshed? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Are you better? You better feel refreshed. But yeah, okay. So let's just start with this. It's new, right? Like, doesn't this feel completely different? Like, I know there are like, there's still lost in Matthews. There's still Matthew Nies. There's still John Tavares. There's still William Nielander. Like, a lot of the key players for this organization remain. And yet the sentiment I'm getting when I was like

9:33prepping for all these preseason storylines and what's going to happen and what's going to play out over the course of training camp was, man, the amount of storylines that we're going to be able to cover with this team is so drastically different than it has been in over the last past five years. And that this genuinely does feel like something way more exciting than we've been accustomed to. Yeah. And I think just to riff off what you said off the top, I think you can make the case that they're the most interesting team in the NHL this season. You know, like maybe it's Edmonton with Mike Babcock and the fireworks that might happen there. But I think it is. But yeah, all of well, so maybe the leaves are number two then. Yeah. But all of the changes that they've made, I mean, they've changed basically the entire organization. You know, I was looking through the management list. You can go on the website and look, the amount of people that are back is, you can probably count on one hand. Maybe maybe you need a second hand, a couple more fingers. But you know, they've turned over at least 10 players on the roster this year. They've turned over the GM, the coach. It's it's basically like a clean slate. And you remember going into last year

10:34what it was like, you know, you lose, Mariner, you don't really do that much. You don't add that much. You were placed with Matthias Michele, right. And we were talking about, oh, maybe Nick Wah and Dakota Joshua are going to be enough to try and, you know, make sure they're okay. And I mean, there was some momentum because they had made it to the second round of the playoffs and they had won the division the year before. But I think going into last year, it's clear that they were going to be worse. Everyone knew that they were going to be worse. We didn't know they were going to be as as bad as they ended up being. But this year, they're going to be better. I mean, there's they're not going to finish with 78 points again. And the big question is how much better are they going to be? And you know, I've been talking to people around the league about the Leafs a lot. And as everyone loves to talk about about Toronto and what's going on there. And there's a wide range of opinions with what this team's going to be. There are quite a few people that think they are going to be a playoff team that they're going to be very competitive in the Atlantic. And then there's other people that don't think they're very good at all. And I think it's kind of like you know, what you see is different based on what part of the roster you're looking at.

11:35And but I, but they're going to be fascinating. You know, they're going to sell tickets. They're going to draw ratings. And I think worst case scenario is they're really bad out of the gate. And it falls apart early. But I don't see that happening. I feel like they're going to be they're going to be competitive. And you know, if anything, there's just a lot of different interesting pieces to watch every night. Gavin McKinney is a huge addition in that regard. Yeah. What's going to happen with Bobrabsky? What's going to happen with Darren Radish? What's the power? I'm going to look like how is the coaching staff going to change the system that they play? And the other thing too, I would say is that if they do struggle, John Shake is not going to sit around and watch some struggle all year the way that happened last year. There's going to be fireworks and there's going to be moves. And you know, if they have an issue in gold, they're going to bring in a gold tenor. If they have an issue on the blue line, they're going to try and make a trade. And you know, the one thing I think you can really say about John Shake is 10 year in Arizona is that he was one of the most active GMs in the league. So I think people can look forward to that being a storyline as well all year is what are they going to do to continue to try and improve the roster as the season goes on? Yeah. Listen, the Leafs

12:38are always at the center of narrative discussion when it comes to this league period. Like we went over this over the course of the postseason where so much of it did still feel like the Toronto Maple Leafs and their fans and all this different stuff. And so it doesn't surprise me that people around the league are talking to a guy who works in Toronto and covers the team about the Maple Leafs. But it means something to me that you, someone who was frankly kind of on it with the Leafs last season that was very much like, hey, I remember you wrote these two pieces and one was, hey, if things go right, this is what it looks like. If things go poorly, this is what it looks like. But privately, when you wrote the, when things go poorly article, you sent it to me in advance and you were like, this is the way that it feels to me this year. And it ended up going that way. And so for you to have a bit of a refresh sense of optimism, for you to have a little bit more of the, hey, look at all the fun stuff that could happen. That is a stark departure from where we were a year ago. Well, I'm going to write those two pieces again this year.

13:40Yeah. But privately, I think you're going to be more on the, hey, this is what it could look like if things go well article. Well, you know, what I would say is that they're going to be way more interesting to talk about into watch and see how it unfolds. And they're way harder to predict what they are. Last year was, there were a lot of arrows pointing in the wrong direction going into last year. And that's not the case this year. This year, there's a lot of arrows pointing in a whole bunch of different directions, you know, and I would say I'm probably a little bit more on the pessimism side to be honest with you about the team. But I do think they're going to be interesting. I do think there's a world where it works. So I think the question is, do the things going the right direction for this team? Do they outweigh the issues that they still have on the roster? Sure. That's going to be the question. And their divisions really, really tough. You know, I've taken a close look at all the other teams that are up against and it's going to be a battle. You know, last year, the fifth place team in the Atlantic had 98 points. It's probably going to be pretty close to that again. Only the top five in

14:40a division can make the playoffs. So if the Leafs have to get to, and they're adding two more games, so if the Leafs have to get to 98, 99 points to make the playoffs, can they do that? Because that's a 2021 point improvement from last year. And I'm skeptical that they can do that. It's like, is it, it's going to be more fun to watch, though, for sure, and more interesting. Yeah, it's going to be compelling. And the division argument is definitely going to be a strong one because when you look at the teams that finished at the top of the division, right, it's like the Sabers, the Lightning, and the Canadians, which one of those teams do you think is going to be taking a step back? I don't think any three of them are going to be a disaster this year. Like you're probably, your pick would be Buffalo just based on history and going like, oh, well, maybe the Sabers fluctuate. I don't think the Habs are going anywhere. I don't think the Lightning are going anywhere. And that's not to factor in that even if you're down on Boston, like I am, I'm not a huge believer that Boston is going to continue on this upward trajectory. I think they'll be competent. I just don't trust that they are going to be in the mix for a top three positioning in the Atlantic. I think the Florida

15:40Panthers clearly fully healthy, reinvigorated, acquiring Brady Kachuk, they're going to be in the mix too. So it's a very, very deep field. That being said, a lot of this when we're talking about the ups and downs. And I mostly want to do training camp questions for you today. But I think this one's worth mentioning kind of right off the top. And it's what the organization has kind of pushed out there to begin the season. Last year, you and I went to a dinner with just like a select, like group of media. It was with the general manager. It was with the head coach. And if you remember, one of the biggest things that they were propagating in that meeting was Matthews is healthy and he wants to come back with an edge. He wants to prove the doubters wrong. And guess what? His skating speed was down last season. His average shot speed was down this season. It wasn't a great year from the NHL edge standpoint, right? Like when you're looking at the edge page, Matthews didn't have the uptick in the numbers. And he still frankly, did not look like the same guy. There were lengthy conversations about the goal scoring droughts, the lack of production, all these different things. He's coming into this season. Once again, saying he's fully healthy. Once again, saying he's ready

16:43to go, I know that this is a cone of silence. Always around this player. He coveted privacy. I would say like to a Sydney Crosby level extent, like I don't know if you saw the clip of Elliot Freeman talking to Sydney Crosby about his lucky belt and said, didn't even want to just like, give anything on the lucky belt because that's how much he coveted privacy. I think Matthews is kind of a similar guy where he doesn't want anything out there about him, his personal life and also his medical history. But have you heard anything different than what we heard a year ago when it comes to Matthews' health? I think I like the way you framed it because it's kind of like one of those you fool me once, you know, shame on you, fool me, twice, shame on me. I mean, everyone's saying that he's healthy, but I think he going in with a healthy dose of skepticism on our part over how healthy he is and what that's going to look like makes sense because it's been two full seasons where he hasn't been what he used to be, you know. So for them to say in training camp, he looks fantastic and the other thing too is you've piled another injury on top of

17:45everything that he's had previously, right? So we know about the back issues, we know he said issues with his wrist. Now he's got the knee reconstruction, which is maybe potentially the least of the worries just because a lot of players come back from that and he's had enough time to recover from that. But you know, everything I've heard is that he looks great and he's healthy and he had a good summer and he's ready to go and all these kinds of things. I think that one of the biggest reasons for optimism with Austin Matthews though is the coaching change and the way that they're going to use him. You know, my understanding is that they brought in a lot of defensively savvy forwards and the intent is to use them to take some of the load off of Austin Matthews. I don't think you're going to see him killing penalties this year. They've got a lot of guys that can do that. I don't think you're going to see him taking tons of defensive zone face-offs, which he did a lot last year. And I think that the mandate for the organization and for Jim Hiller and they've had these conversations with Matthews, the mandate is it's going to be more fun to play for this team and you're going to have more opportunities to excel at what you're good at. So,

18:50if you're talking from a fantasy hockey perspective, I think his numbers are going to come up absolutely, but I'm not going to come on here and say that he's going to be the player he was three years ago and threaten 60 goals and be an absolutely dominant force. I just think he's going to be able to make a bigger impact with who he's going to be playing with on his line, with how they're going to be using him and just with having a new system in place that's going to play more to his strengths. So, I like all those points. And if you look at the makeup of the bottom six, that feels extremely clear. If you also look at Matthews wanting to remain in Toronto, I think that winning is going to be number one. Like, does this team look like they have a shot to win? No question. But yeah, is he having fun? And is he producing again? This is sort of why, like, you know, even when I'm doing the, this season feels refreshed. Part of that conversation is, I don't think people really care to discuss the, is he, is he not? Will he won't he resign up until this point? Because it kind of works for all parties.

19:54Like, if Matthews doesn't look like himself, if he does not look like anything close to the player that he used to be three years ago, then you're going to have some grumbling in the fans going, yes, the worst thing if he ends up leaving. I don't know. And if he's amazing, and it works out, the team is probably going to be having success. And you feel a lot more comfortable giving him a deal, especially since this is someone who has always liked a shorter term deal rather than a long term one. So, I don't know. I just don't feel the urgency around Matthews' contract conversations, the way that I do just with his play. Like, what does his play look like? And all the things you mentioned, not, you didn't say, they also brought in someone that he's very familiar with, who we trained during the off season with, and Jack Roselvik, who might not be his wing or all season long, but is a guy that he likes, and is a guy that he's going to want to play with, I think, out of the gate this season. And then also, the first overall pick has a skill set that really should operate well with Austin Matthews at some point in his career. Like, maybe it doesn't materialize in year one, maybe that's not what they need from him, but you're telling me there's not going to be a moment this season or two where we see Gatman Kenna

20:57on the first power play unit feeding Austin Matthews and making a brilliant play, creating time in space for him, making his life easier with his own entry and thinking to the future of, you know what, there's going to be years where these guys primes or like back end prime front and prime end up overlapping. He's got better players to get the most out of his skill set, the better role, probably the better coach. And I think having the knee injury at least did give him added time to recover even though it is something else on top of it. So I got to say, I'm pretty optimistic about this. I'm not getting fooled into thinking, like you said, the three years ago guy, but I think he's going to be closer to that than he was the last two seasons. Yeah, I mean, I guess we'll see, right? Yeah. I mean, the thing is, I think people are so down on Matthews last year in part for reasons that were out of his control. Like last year was a complete tire fire, which players looked good last season, you know, and the system that they were playing and how they were using him is the absolute, I mean, it's a huge reason why his

22:00numbers were where they were. Honestly. So I think that if we're objective about what Austin Matthews is now, I don't think he's a top three player in the league anymore, the way that he was at his peak, but I still think he's a top 15 or 17 player. He's still unbelievable defensively. I mean, what we saw from him at the Olympics with Team USA is that he was one of the best players on the ice in those games. I remember the first period of the gold medal game, he was fantastic. He might have been the best player on the ice. So he still has that in him. I just don't know that he's going to have the shot and the speed and all of the physical pieces that he had in the past. It's a year contract point is interesting too. I mean, when his extension kicks in two years from now, he's going to be 30 years old and it might be a different equation for him. You know, it might be that his next deal is going to be a long one and it's going to be taking him close to the end of his career. And you know, the only reason to talk about and think about the contract situation is that if this season really doesn't go well, that's it. Then I think it's over. The

23:03story is over and it's after two poor seasons for the organization, Matthews is going to feel like it's time to move on. The Leafs are obviously not going to want to walk him through that final year of the contract. And so all of a sudden the discussion becomes, do you start building around McKenna? Do you start pulling this apart a little bit? And you know, so it's not even really a two-year window where you have Austin Matthews and you're trying to contend. It's really a one-year window if it doesn't go well. Yes, absolutely. But in a world where it's like this group of American hockey players are leaving and how big that conversation was less than a year ago, it doesn't feel forefront to me. Like I'm not going to spend as if you would have asked me at the trade deadline, how much of your next year's content is going to be about Austin Matthews? Will he won't he trade potential? I would have said, probably a decent amount to a frustrating degree. And now I'm like, yeah, I just like I'm going to bring it up now with you. I don't sense that this is going to be a carryover discussion for me throughout the season. Well, it's just if like if they win 15 games in the first half or something and they're at the bottom of the Atlantic, then it's going to be it's going

24:05to be a discussion. Sure. But then. Yeah. Yeah. Now, no, refresh me please. Okay. So before training camp questions, last one on kind of other business, which is I predicted that Morgan Riley would not be traded. You recall this. I was like, I don't think it's going to happen. I think that there's not going to be suitors and then they're not going to take a bad deal. They're not going to move off of assets to get rid of them. He's here right now and it's been pretty quiet. Do you think this is the end of Morgan Riley trade discussions at least until the season is underway and we're closer to like, you know, I would say a month before the deadline. Yeah, I think he's sticking around for a while and they're yet trying to build around him. And I know Jim Hiller, the coach I know wants to see what he's worked with Riley before and his high on him. And I mean, too, like you look at their blue line and I think if there's any reason for major concern, it's the back end and they can't really afford to subtract Morgan Riley and not bring in another top 4D. If there's a trade that comes up that materializes where they can remake the blue line, then I could see him going. I mean,

25:07the thing that fundamentally changed is he's got the no movement clause, but he made it very clear in the off season that he was willing to go. Yeah. You know, and then gave them destinations and there were conversations and that's different than past years. So that's the thing that's different. So if it comes time to where the Leafs want to revisit it again, it's not going to be anything new. It's not going to be a shock to Morgan Riley. And I think you could see it happen. But you know, for now they've made peace with the idea that it didn't make sense to give him away for nothing or to trade him with a sweetener. And you know, San Jose went a different direction with the guys that they got with with nurse and Truba. So Riley's going to be a part of this and they need him. And it'll be interesting to see if he can rebound. And I know we've been saying that for a number of seasons now if he can get back to where he was, but I think it's the same thing. I think we have the lower expectations to what Morgan Riley is. And if you can play him as say your number four defenseman and you shelter him a little bit and he's only playing 20 minutes max a night, maybe you get a better player on the ice than what happened last year. I agree. Okay. So let's

26:11start with this then in regards to training camp. How much do you think is actually going to be determined by the way guys look together versus what you think they already have in their minds eye with this roster. And I'm not going to say it's going to be inflexible that there wouldn't be things that could change their minds. But how much do you think is set today and versus how much do you think is actually open when it comes to competition and the preseason? I think quite a bit is set in part because of how short this preseason is going to be. It's going to be one of the shortest pre-season in NHL history. The home opener against Montreal is in 12 days. And they're just they're not even they haven't even had that on ice session yet at training camp. So this is going to be a shotgun start more than anything we've seen. And teams around the league have to be prepared to go in with their their preseason plan into training camp. And I don't think that there's going to be a lot of room for things to change. I mean obviously injuries can change things or if something looks awful. But the veteran players there's only four preseason games this year.

27:14The veteran players are probably going to only play two. It camps very short. You're only going to see them on the ice of the 12 days. You might see them on the ice nine or 10 times. How much is really going to change in your mind from the plan that you go in with. And I look at the pieces that they've got. And there's not really a lot of moving parts there. They they brought in the players they did because they really want to have a top six bottom six layout. And it's pretty clear which players are going to be in the bottom six and which players are going to be in the top six. And there's a few question marks. You know does Rosalovic start with Matthews? I think he does. Who's on the left wing on that line? Probably nice I would think. Yeah. Makes sense to me. It's probably McKenna Tavares, Neil Ender is the second line. And then you're looking at where does Cowan play and where does Nick Paul play? And there's some questions like that. But not a lot. And then I look at the back end and there's not a lot of moving parts there either. So I would say that the roster is probably 90% settled right now. And there's probably a few things that they want to flip around and look at. But other than that,

28:16I bet you would they have on the whiteboard over at the practice arena at Ford Performance Center. I bet it's pretty close to what we end up seeing 12 days from now. So let's just start with the top six bottom six then because I was going to originally go with the blue line questions. But you went over your groups. I have the same top six that you do. That it's Rosalovic, Matthews, Nies, McKenna, Tavares, Neil Ender. And maybe that obviously there's a lot of potential for that to look different. But I have the bottom six as something that's harder to put together. Because I think that blue girl and Joshua have history together. And so my guess is if you're doing a short preseason, you want to have guys who've already got chemistry together. So they're likely to play with one another. Eastern Cowan needs ice time. I think they're going to want to get minutes from Nick Paul as well. You traded stuff to actually get them. So my thought is he's going to play. The question is is he going to play center? Is he going to play wing? Because that kind

29:16of shuffles things up for me. Because if you got blue girl with Joshua, I would assume blue girl's going to play center. But then you've also got sizzards. So that does give you more center depth than you came into with a couple of years ago, just from your options that can play in the bottom six. But how do you think it shakes out from what those lines look like? Because I think Cowan and Paul are going to be together. What I can't figure out is if Nick is going to be a center to start on that line. Or if they're going to try to make something where it's, yeah, it's a lot more fluid with that group. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, if they want to stick, I've got a written down in front of me. I've got Joshua and blue girl with Cowan. I was kind of like an energy fourth line. And then I was thinking that Paul and Sizzards and do Hayme would be kind of the checking line that you bury and you know, whether it's Paul or Sizzards at center, I mean, they could, they can play around with that a little bit. You know, Sizzards played on the wing when he was with in Vegas last year, um, quite a bit when they, when they wanted to move him over. So I

30:17think what they need, though, is they need at least one of those lines that they feel like they can bury in the D zone and can play against top competition. And I don't know that you want to do that with Cowan. And I just look at the defensive profile for both Sizzards and Paul and to a lesser extent do Hayme. And I think that they can potentially handle that. So that's how I would line that up. And I would just had, they would be aligned that I would, would bury and I would be looking for really tough minutes from. And I do like the idea of Joshua and Bluegar together. And when they played well in Vancouver together, they played with Connor Garland, who was, who is an undersized spark plug kind of player, which I could see Easton Cowan being. So, you know, we would nominally call them the fourth line because they're going to get 11, 12 minutes a game. That doesn't mean that Cowan can't play his way up the lineup or something like that. But I think that that, that's a, if it works, if, if Paul Sizzards and do Hayme can take the tough minutes, I think that that's a pretty deep forward group. And I'd be interested to see how that could do against some of the better teams in the NHL this season. I think if Cowan earns the needs more

31:18ice time, they will find ways to make that happen. What I think is more compelling though about this conversation is Cowan to me is someone who can play down the lineup and up the lineup. With Gavin McKenna, it's a little bit more interesting from this standpoint, which is, all right, well, if he's not in the bottom six, I don't really, or sorry, if he's not in the top six, I don't really see how he fits into the bottom six. And so he's especially compelling, not just from the standpoint of like, hey, what are you going to get out of this kid this season? Right? I think most people have the like, in their minds, I, the, I think it would be a successful season if he was over 50 points. If he was below 50 points, people would be kind of looking at that going as a bit of a bummer. If he has a slow start, what's the leash going to be? Like, how long will he get an opportunity to play on this team's second line? If that does end up being the case, right at a camp, are they going to try to make him earn his way up the lineup by showing some defensive play to start his career, not just have it look purely offensive? He still remains a pretty fascinating question to me, not just from the like, what are you going to get standpoint,

32:20but also the how this team that's trying to win and has a first overall pick on their roster, balances development versus production because like, and I'll wrap it up by saying this. If you look back at the last time they had a number one overall pick in Austin Matthews, he played almost 18 minutes of game. Very different circumstances. A center had already played a year of professional hockey. Like, I get it. But even if we wanted to use Mitch Marner as the parallel, someone who profiles, I think a little bit more closely to him, Marner played 17 minutes, a game in his rookie season. And I think if you're the main beliefs, that's going to actually be kind of the goal with Gavin McKenna by the end of this is that his minutes are going to be somewhere around like 16, 30 and night. Yeah. And I mean, some of that could come on the power plate too. I mean, there's a question where there's a world where it makes sense for McKenna to be on power play one pretty early on. I mean, that could be one of the looks that they look at in in preseason and see how that fits. And if you do that, you've got to probably move one of Tavara's or Nihase to power play too. But I just having a great passer, which they really lacked and having someone who's

33:24good on on zone entries, which they really lacked last year in the power play makes a lot of sense. I mean, it's going to depend on is McKenna overwhelmed by the moment or does he step right in and does he look the way that Matthews and Marner did in their rookie season where they were really, really good players right away. And I remember that that first season too, the minutes were lower for them early on like there were times where Matthews was playing as the second or third line center and he wasn't getting tough matchups and it was really it started to flip towards the middle of that season where I remember the outdoor game where he just turned it on and and Babcock was using him against Detroit's top players and that's what I remember and then all of a sudden, you know, he was getting 20 minutes tonight after that. So it could be a case of that where if there's an easing in in the first month or two of the season and if McKenna shows that he's ready, then you continue to dial up the minutes. You're right, though. I haven't thought that process through that far, but if it doesn't work with Tavara's and Nihase on a second line, I'm assuming

34:26it's going to if it doesn't work though, I'm not sure where you play him. There's not it'd be kind of weird to put it high trying to hide him in the bottom six somewhere. I guess you could try and make a sheltered scoring line around one of the centers and playing with Cowan or something like that, but you know, I think that they've got their hopes up that he's going to work in the top six and he's going to be able to figure it out over time. But given it's a win-now moment for the organization and they want to make the playoffs this year, they can't afford to just leave him there if he's sinking for, you know, the entire season. So that's going to be interesting to watch. Totally agree. What I will say is I also think it's going to work out and I really like the McKenna's answer yesterday when they asked him about the noise and the market and how he mentioned that this is something that he likes that people doubted him when he got off to a slow start last season and that he used it as a motivator in his play. I think that's an authentic piece of who he is. Nobody wants to hear bad things about them all the time. I'm certainly not saying, hey,

35:26that's what you're hoping for here. But I do think that he's got a pretty strong mental makeup and that last season going through everything he did with the controversy surrounding him absolutely helped him prepare for narrative spikes in a market that is going to have high expectations of him fairly quickly. When it comes to the power play, I genuinely think it would be a mistake not to have him there immediately for the reasons that you just said. This team needs a guy who can enter the zone. This need needs a guy who can play the half wall and who can make a play and who can make a pass and help other guys just be able to move around because it was too stagnant last year. It was a lot of Matthews in the same spot, knee lander in the same spot. Kind of bumping your head up against a wall just watching the way that the power play looked. Now you want to have a facilitator because you want to be able to get the most out of the Darren Rattachot. You want to have more guys and bodies being able to go to the net. To me, that is somebody like that is somebody like Matthews that is somebody like knee lander. I absolutely would have Gavin McKenna on power play one to start the season. And if it doesn't

36:26work out, great. Shift them out of there. If it is too much, fine. Take them off the unit. But I want to see it from the outset and I want to give them as many reps as possible. Yeah. No, I think it makes a lot of sense. I suspect that is what they're going to do. I don't know if we'll see power play work today at training camp, but at, you know, at least over the next few days, we're going to see it and we'll see it in game situations. And I think you need to have a look at it just because of the personnel you have. And I think having both knives and Tavaris on power play one hasn't been working. You know, you only need one of those guys with kind of the physical presence at the net. So you pick one of them. One of them moves to power play two, probably Tavaris. He can center power play two. Maybe use power play two a little bit more because you've got Tavaris there. And you cross your fingers that it works out with McKenna. And that can be a place where he can build confidence. He can get his cookies. He can get to the production that you're talking about. And, you know, even if it's a bit of a slog for him, at even strength, at least he's got some things that are going his direction. And it could be a power play that I think the power play could be really good. I mean, there's a world where same

37:30with with radish there adds an element that they badly lacked last year. And, you know, even last season, the power play wasn't bad. It was it was average, you know, and I think there's a world where it can be a top five top seven power play this year. And that's going to be a weapon that they can rely on. I'll take it a step further. I don't think that this team has the success they need to have if the power play is not dominant this year. If the power play is not one of the top the 10 best units and all of hockey, like you're still loaded up front, you just added Darren Radish and you got a first overall pick who profiles well with the unit. They've got to find a way to be a massive weapon for this team. And if it's stagnant throughout the entirety of the year, and if we're doing the same old roller coaster ride where it's like, okay, cool, it comes in bunches, but there's long stretches where it's ice cold and looks formulaic. I don't I don't think that this team is going anywhere. All right, so to the D, we mentioned the Riley stuff that he's likely here to stay. And now it's kind of hard to envision a scenario where he's actually out of this lineup, but who does Darren Radish play with to you? I think McCabe just because you can load up that top pair and give them,

38:33you know, real top pair minutes, you know, I'm I'm a big McCabe fan. I'm a believer in him. I think even when the season went sideways last year, he still showed a lot of great things. He he led the D in ice time, you know, last season. And I think he's someone that can handle defensive situations. He can help facilitate offensive situations. You know, and you look at who Radish played last year in Tampa with JJ Moser, and it's a similar kind of a player. You want someone who can calm things down, help get the puck out of the zone. Radish isn't a burner. I mean, he's not an amazing skater. And neither is McCabe. So it's not going to be like they're going to be kale McCaring it out of their own zone and into the other zone. But there are two veteran guys who have really, you know, good hockey sets. That's really what Radish has. In addition to the big shot, he vert about and ability to play in the power play, Radish is a smart player. And he's had to be a smart player because he doesn't have the feet to get him out of trouble. He's good at well positioned. And the question is, can he face other teams top lines night after night? You know,

39:33can he really be a true top pair guy playing 22, 23 minutes? Are you going to use them on the penalty kill? But I think that that's what you go with and you hope that it works because all the other combinations, I just wonder how you get enough minutes for Radish and enough minutes for McCabe. And I don't think he want to put Chris Tanov into a situation where he's playing huge minutes. You want to conserve whatever you're going to get from a 37 year old Chris Tanov, I think, rate out of the game. Tanov is as big a wild card on this team as anybody else. Like when we're doing all the gab McKenna talk or the Austin Matthews health talk or Sir Gabe Obrowski, it's like to me, Tanov obviously in that group. Like if he gives you some semblance of the player that you had two years ago, you feel so much better about this blue line. Like, and then you have the ability to put him with McCabe to, you know, close out a game, the defensive zone or to have those two together on the penalty kill all season long as basically your anchor unit. It changes everything for you. But I'm with you that I think Radish, the smart play

40:39or the most obvious play. I don't know, maybe they're both is to have him start to season with McCabe, have Riley started with Tanov and then have OEL and Andre together. Or if it doesn't end up being a meal, then you've got Troy Stetcher. Yeah, I think that's what they're going to do. You know, and Andre has shown an ability and Philly to play on the right side. So I could see him, you know, you get him with a veteran countryman, another suite in in Ekman, Larson. And you know, if needed, if it's the only thing I would say to that is Riley and Tanov didn't really work when they've tried it in the past. I mean, they didn't try it for that long, but that was the idea when they got Tanov and it just it didn't work. And as we've seen with lots of different partners, sometimes people have, it's a challenge for them to play with Morgan Riley. So, but again, if they're in more sheltered minutes, maybe it works, you know, but so potentially there's a world where it's Ekman, Larson and Tanov that are playing together. But to your point on Tanov, him being a wild card, if he's hurt and he only plays 11 games again, they don't have enough D, you know, they probably

41:40don't have a good enough D even with him, without him. It's a bit of a mess, you know, they're going to be really scrambling and they're going to have to find somebody. And I think that that's my, the biggest red flag for me, I think looking at their roster and comparing each other teams in the Atlantic, other playoff teams around the league is, is this blue line going to be good enough? Can they get enough out of this top six to make it into the playoffs and be competitive? And I think that's really an open question. Yeah. Again, they've got a lot of open questions. Can the goal tender entering his age 38 season bounce back? Can he be the Ed Belvoir arc or is it going to be a continuation of what we saw a year ago? Can the blue line coalesce and find a balance? And I think Morgan Riley and Chris Tanov, finding some measure of chemistry as a more sheltered second pairing is going to be pivotal. And that's sort of the way that I think that it should operate out of the gate because again, you're not throwing Chris Tanov into the deepest of waters. And that's why I think it's going to be McCabe with radish as much as anything. It's just like,

42:44I don't trust that that's the situation. Remember, and God forbid this be the case. But they had the season, the final TJ Brody season, where they ran it out there from the outset of, hey, you're still our top pairing guy. And it was a lot of him just getting barbecued, a lot of him clearly and way over his head. And it felt like that set him behind the eight ball from a play standpoint, but also a narrative standpoint. And there was just no kind of put in the genie back in the bottle. I'm not doing that with Chris Tanov. I want to see his minute sheltered and I want to see kind of his role evolve a little bit as the season goes on, knowing that, yeah, there's a long-term element to the way that you handle him this season. You have to not just be thinking about the now, you have to be thinking about getting him to the finish line. They need him. They badly need him. And the trick for them is going to be they're going to be trying to win games right away out of the gate. And the trick is going to be not leading on him too heavily because I mean, think about it. You got a big penalty kill and you're in a tie game and it's late in the third period who you put out there. Chris Tanov. Yep. I mean, look at the rest of who else is it going to be? You know, he's your defensive stopper. He's your best defensive player

43:49that you've got. And so that's part of why I think it's going to fall on radish to play more minutes than he did last year and to be an all-around player, not just an offensive weapon. And the question is, can he do that outside of Tampa system and not playing with JJ Moser? And I think that the ask on radish is going to be very, very high. They ask on McCabe's going to be very, very high because you can't afford to ask more of Riley and Tanov because it's not going to work and you're going to burn those guys out. I believe they have the oldest blue line in the league. They still got one of the oldest teams in hockey. Yeah. Like that's the D's average age is 32. I mean, they have they have four of the 40 oldest defensemen in the league. Yeah, it doesn't feel that way because now it's like, hey, they've got Cowan. Hey, they've got McKenna, but no, the rest of the roster is quite old. Actually, that's one other thing too is I actually really like that. Cowan is a little bit more buried from a narrative standpoint that there isn't as much in his shoulders of like, year two, Cowan. What's it going to be? Like, yeah, people are going to talk about it, but in terms of the narratives, he feels a little lost in the shuffle and all this, which to me is a good

44:51thing for him. Anyways, James Myrtle of the Athletic. We're back. I appreciate your time today, and I look forward to another full season together, brother. Awesome. Thanks, JD. Yep. Be well, man. James Myrtle again, of the Athletic. You can subscribe to this podcast. You can reach out anytime at JD Bunkas on Twitter or on Instagram. We'll be right back with what we missed. With the Amix Gold card, earn four times points at restaurants and enjoy every night out to the fullest. Apply today at American Express dot com slash explore dash gold terms and points cap apply. All right. My buddy Chris is going to like this Metallica is bringing the M72 world tour to high mark stadium on June 8th, 2027. If we've got your chance to win your way in, with what has been described as the largest touring audio system ever, the M72 world tour is a

45:56live music experience unlike anything else. Don't miss your chance to see Metallica live. All you got to do is listen to JD Bunkas podcasts for the code words and text the code word to 59590. Today's code word is puppets. Text the code word puppets right now to 59590 for your chance to win tickets. Go on sale Friday September 25 at 10 a.m. local at ticketmaster.com. Please note prize includes ticket only travel and accommodation are not included contest open to Ontario residents only standard message and data rates may apply. All right. Christian, what do we miss? JD it's time for our weekly quiet update. I think these are a little bit more optimistic. Now that he's actually a raptor. The raptors dropped their first episode of Open Gym of the season yesterday and obviously heavily features quiet entered in the city. Checking out his stall in the locker room, a lot of conversations with Darko Bobby on the phone, all that good stuff. And some decent quotes from quiet. One that I really liked was him saying that he's not really championship ring chasing. Didn't want to put a thousand jerseys on really like the city

47:01in hopes that the city city really embraces him back. I'm curious. How did you think why I came across in this episode of Open Gym? Was he genuine to you or a bit of a character? So I normally don't really care at all about behind the scenes stuff that's produced by teams. Sure. Like HBO had the 24 7 series. It was unbelievable. And then a lot of teams watched that. We're like, why would we give them narrative control? Why don't we just do our own thing and lamp, lamp, lamp, the lot of them stink. Open Gym is the exception to that rule. It is unbelievably well done. Like it is, if you're a raptors fan, like a diehard, I feel like this has to be a part of your diet as a fan is watching this program. The quiet stuff was shocking to me in the best way possible where I'll be honest. I'm pretty, I'm going into the quiet experience

48:08a little different than I think a lot of other people are. My general sentiment that I've been getting back from friends and family about Kauai is nothing but an bridal excitement. And it's part of the reason why I've been a little reluctant to do segments on Kauai not because I'm afraid to speak my mind, but just more so that I just like, I feel like the buzz kill at a party where I'm like, yeah, but he's 35. Yeah, he's coming off of a 55 games a year with the clippers. Yeah, but this isn't the same. Quiet. Like, baby, baby, like you sound like a little whiner. And especially when everybody else is just trying to have a good time. And this moment with Kauai Leonard legitimately changed the way that I was feeling about it going in. Because okay, cards on table, I think no matter what happens with Kauai's career, even if he's successful with the Toronto Raptors now, he will always be a what if because what if he stayed? What if he stayed? Will always, immediately, I really believe they win that second title. They take one away from LeBron. It is

49:09a massive domino in the NBA's history. He was the best player in the league at the time. And he left defending a championship to go to a team that became one of the worst disasters in not just NBA history, pro sports history. And if he had stayed in Toronto, even on a short term deal, like I do wonder if a second championship would have kept them here like whatever. Kauai seemed extremely authentic, extremely human, extremely appreciative, extremely excited, all of these things that were conveyed. I don't think he has the ability to really fake that stuff. I think he is who he is. And I think what you're seeing is relief that his situation is over there and an appreciation for what he used to have. And that was fans. In the Clippers, he didn't have fans. In a Toronto, he has a city, a market, and yes, a country. All rooting for this guy. It's a place he had success. It was a place he was embraced. I think he's really, really pumped to be here. I don't think the stuff about

50:12his son or anything was just like pure PR. I think he's saying what he feels. And it's nice to know that he feels something back to this market. And yeah, I would say that if you were a little bit colder like me, you're a little bit more likely to give him that now that you've seen it from him. We'll see you tomorrow.