The Manosphere (Part 1 of 2)

0:00Is your marriage struggling, communication breaking down, trust fading, conflict that never seems to resolve? There's still hope. Hope restored marriage intensives by focus on the family, help couples step away from daily life, and focus fully on rebuilding their relationship. And right now, through the Marriage Investment Initiative, Hope Restored is investing $1,000 toward marriage intensives. Visit Hope Restored.com slash Marriage-investment. Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Dr. Greg Smalley. And I'm Erin Smalley. Today we're discussing a topic that's receiving a lot of attention online, and it's concerning. Especially to me, it's very concerning. I know it is to you to Greg, and it's the mannest fear, which there's also a portion of it called the Christian Mannest fear. And if you haven't heard of it, you're not alone. A lot of good husbands haven't heard about it either.

1:02And that's exactly why we wanted to talk about it, just to educate people what it is, and making sure that you're not sliding into any of it. Because we want to ground it in scripture. What is the truth? Many men have encountered the mannest fear content, just while searching for advice about relationships, marriage, masculinity, and even purpose. What started as content that was meant to encourage positive changes or positive behavior like discipline or self-improvement, it quickly devolved into unhealthy ideas about husbands, wives, and marriage, including control, resentment, and the belief that husbands and wives are adversaries rather than partners. And that's obviously why this conversation matters so much, and why we want to have this conversation is Christians. We want to evaluate every message through the lens of God's Word. The Bible presents a very different picture, thank the Lord, of marriage, than what we often see online.

2:12So instead of these power struggles that end up happening, it really got calls us to mutual honor. Instead of viewing one another with suspicion, he calls us to love sacrificially. And instead of demanding what he believes he's owed, God calls the husband to earn it through patience, and tenderness, and sacrifice, certainly not entitlement. And we know this to be true, that showing respect to our spouse, it's often found in those little moments, listening closely, speaking kindly, letting our spouse know that they're appreciated. Those simple acts of love can help our spouses to feel valued, seen, and deeply cared for, which is the deepest longing of the human heart. Speaking of listening closely, Greg has spent months and hours and hours digging into the Christian atmosphere, reading online content, studying scripture, and tracing how good men end up believing some pretty troubling and terrible things.

3:21So today I'm turning the tables, and I'm interviewing you, Greg. Nice. Coming up, Greg and I are going to walk through six of the biggest lies that the Manosphere presents, and really is infiltrating men's minds and hearts with. We're going to do three today and three in our next episode, and more importantly, we're going to share what does the Bible actually say in response to each one of these lies. So stick around because we're going to go deep into the Manosphere right after this. So before we get into the six lies, I think people need to really hear that this isn't some fringe, obviously crazy internet thing. This is real. It's using Christian language like headship, leadership, covenant, which can be confusing. So Greg, what is the Manosphere, and how did it get so good at sounding biblical? Yeah, there's not like a Manosphere movement. It's really just a collection of online networks and forms and influencers, podcasters, and what kind of collectively you're seeing the big message, what they would call the red pill.

4:31So if you've ever seen the movie, the Matrix, this is what wakes everybody up to the reality that of where they're living, not in sort of this fantasy world. So the red pill kind of philosophy around the Manosphere is that really society is a masculated man. Women can't be trusted. And true masculinity means dominance and control. So in a very broad sense, that's kind of what's being preached. Now the Christian version, Aaron, as you talked about, it's taking those similar kinds of ideology and really taking the lead. Really taking things like headship and leadership and covenant and redefining them. So leadership then becomes control, submission becomes fear. But they're using Bible verses. So when someone's hearing all that, they're thinking, oh, this must be the way it is. Yeah, it sounds reasonable. But you're saying it's not, it's concerning. No, and that's really the lies that we want to walk through is how are these, these Bible verses, these words that you find within scripture, how they be entwisted and manipulated to really promote kind of a male dominance in a female submission.

5:46And like you said, in the half spent months and I couldn't even tell you how many hours in there is kind of a reality of, I mean, I feel like I've been in this dark hole, this pit. Just learning all this stuff, just going, man, that's why I'm excited about today's show because I want to shed some light like that dark pit needs light and that's God, that's his word. It sounds amazing to be able to hear the truth. And I'm sure for you to to be in some ways released from spending. Remember when you asked me last night, hours and hours of, yeah, I didn't realize you were actually going on forums and reading the darkness. That's good for me to know. So I'm glad that I know last night you were because as we were prepping for today, you were like, so is this impact? Did you at all? Like you're not following any of this. And again, that's what I get excited about for today. So it was to really talk about what I've learned. And more importantly, what God says and what his word reveals about what's being shared across the internet to men.

6:52And again, it sounds close enough because you're getting the Bible versus sprinkled in there. And so it boy, but it really can lead a husband to a very dangerous place within his relationship. So tell me, Greg, if this is so off, if the man of spirit is so obviously off, once you can see it clearly, how does a good man, a Christian man, get sucked into this and end up believing this ideology that is not accurate. Because I know nobody just wakes up one day and decides to become controlling. So tell us, how does a Christian good man get there? Yeah, you think of that old analogy of, you know, if you're going to boil a frog, you just don't throw him into a pot of boiling water. You actually put him in cold water and then turn it up, you know, degree by degree. And then he never registers the change that is ultimately going to not only harm him, but ultimately to his demise.

7:52And that's really what's going on. I think what the manosphere has picked up on is that our men, our young men, especially, they're hurting. They're in a lot of pain. There's a lot of loneliness. There's confusion about what it means to be a man, masculinity. Often in our culture is considered toxic, confused on where am I going? Who am I? What is my identity? What is my purpose? And so when you take that, where a lot of guys are really struggling with that and begin to slowly feed them content that always begins with just self help. And how to be a better husband, a better father, a better man, you know, make more money. I mean, those legitimate things and then go by degree by degree and start to feed, you know, this content that becomes more extreme over time. You know, the problem is we have algorithms now that are very wise and they notice.

8:52And it's seen things that a guy isn't able to see, you know, 12 steps down the road, which is the material and going to be fed. Right. That's really what's going on. And so, and then at the end of that, you've just been indoctrinated into this information, especially understanding, well, I never knew that about that Bible verse or all that kind of makes sense. And then all of a sudden, one day, you're really operating within a playbook that really the man of spheres put together that's absolutely devastating to a wife kills your marriage. And always, you know, for me, it's like, that's not even the guy that I would want to be. What's a pinging about that nothing? Like, I don't want to be a guy that has to rely on manipulating, controlling, dominating you to get what I want. I think that's something I don't want to stare at in the mirror. But boy, degree by degree that slow boil is really how that happens. And that makes sense. The slow boil because it sounds plausible.

9:52It sounds like a pathway, a pathway forward. And so scripture is borrowed at just the right time. So it sounds good, which sounds just like the enemy because the enemy does become such an imposter and utilizes what God has made that is good. And, towards it, just a little bit, twist it just a little bit. And that's where he gets his foothold. And so let's go straight to the source, starting with the very first verse that the manosphere leans on to make the case. Yeah, so this is really lie number one. This is how I'd frame it is that Genesis three commands husbands to rule. So that's sort of the manosphere claim. They might say it like this. Genesis 316 establishes God's design for marriage. Husbands are meant to rule over the wives and wives are meant to submit to that authority. So Genesis 316. So this is right after Adam and Eve sinned.

10:53This is where they are hiding. God confronts them. Basically God's saying now is the result of your choice to sin. Here is what's going to happen to both of you individually. But now he's also talking about their marital relationship. So it says then you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you. So the manosphere is taking that verse to say, well that's God's design for marriage. That the man should rule over the woman. And the lie there is that that is 100% not a command. God isn't saying this is what I want now marriage. So look like he is saying, as a result of what you guys did, this is going to be the new reality. And it's broken his heart. This is not the Eden marriage where there was partnership and unity and that oneness. And they're still with their individual roles working together to go out and conquer the world. That was God's design for marriage.

11:53And so you take that prefall Eden where that partnership and shared purpose. There was no rivalry there. There were no power struggles. But now God is saying this is what's going to be true. And I would say this is the moment that power struggles and marriage became a reality. I mean, look at the verse. She's going to try to control you. And he is going to react by trying to rule over you. You see that every day in your counseling office. And that's why couples are there. They're in this power struggle. Who's going to be in control? We're going to get into this adversarial relationship. That was you and I. You know, our first several years of marriage. I mean, you think about we were locked into that tug of war. And what we often don't talk about is what's going on under that are these tender spots that we both brought into the marriage that are being triggered. Which are actually lies and ironically Satan is called the father of life. So he's playing on that. And that is what you're saying is happening within these marriages that the manus fears encouraging the man to rule over his wife.

13:01And not only just in let me play with the word in there. Because this is how insidious that it gets. The manus fear is not just encouraging guys. It's saying this is God's design for your marriage. If you don't do this, you're operating outside. Wow. How he's built it to work. Wow. That's the confusion because you take a verse like that on its own and say, we'll see God said it. Right. So that's the design. That's not at all what God's doing. And I am guessing because this is one of those verses that sometimes couples don't dig into. What does it really mean? And I am guessing that the manus fears built on many of those verses that we haven't taken time within the church to really know what does this really mean? And how does this practically apply to a godly Christian marriage? Right. And here's what I would argue that everything the manus fear is teaching is rooted in this Genesis 3, 16 power struggle. It all started then.

14:02This has been going on for thousands of years. You think about in the Apostle Paul's day and age how men ruled literally ruled over their wives. Women had virtually no rights. Right. And look at our culture now. Look at an Afghanist stand. You know, look at what's going on. Look around the world. You see the same thing. The men are dominating ruling over. And it all came from here. And what the encouragement, the hope is that I would argue that the Apostle Paul then in Ephesians 5, so we all know the marriage passage. I would say Ephesians 5 verse 21 all the way through 33. This is really where Paul's laying out his vision, his encouragement and often his command for the husband and the wife. And but I would argue that Paul is actually trying to then undo the Genesis 3, 16 curse on the marriage.

15:02He's saying, hey, how about for both of you, let me talk to the husband. Let me talk to the wife. If husbands, if you love your wife sacrificial like God did his ride the church, that's your part of breaking this out instead of ruling over. What if you actually love her sacrificial and he's saying to the wife instead of being told to submit instead of being made to submit. What if you choose as an active worship to God? What if you choose to submit to his leadership? If both of you do that, that's how you guys can break the curse and go back to that original design. The design that God ultimately wanted for us so that that's the hope. And we're going to go there and we're really going to dig into Ephesians 5 and all those verses talk about Greek and all that just to really talk about Paul's vision of how we can break out of this curse.

16:02So if I'm hearing you, you're saying that the curse in the manosphere becomes a blueprint for how marriage should look. But the gospel doesn't just correct that it calls both individuals out of the power struggle entirely. No more tug of war. Yes. And so husband, surrender power, wives, surrender control, and together they take back the oneness Christ actually dies to give us. That's exactly what I'm saying. Okay. So Greg, there's another word that the manosphere amplifies and that's headship. So if it doesn't mean rule over her, what does headship actually mean? Because that's exactly where line number two comes in. Yeah. And I would say there that line number two, the manosphere claim, what sounds something like this? Headship means authority. The husband leads the wife obeys any challenge to mel authority is a rejection of God's design. Wow. Right? So saying words, right words, now you're talking theology.

17:02Those are words that I recognize. Wow. I didn't know that. I didn't know headship means divine authority. So let's go there. Right. Because you're saying that is not accurate. I would say not at all because the key verse there is. I'm like, please tell me this is not accurate as far as what you now believe after doing all the research. I've spent so much time that I've gone to the dark side. Yeah. But you're saying no. That is where the enemy comes in and contorts it. Right. But here's what you and I are trying to do. Just don't take our word for it. Let's go to the scripture. Yes. So through everything that we're going to say, as you're hearing this, the litmus test is, is that an accurate portrayal description of God's word, the verse. Like, is this not, does not theology, a hologregar air and let's go to the scripture. So Ephesians 523 says, for the husband is the head of the wife, is Christ is the head of the church, his body of which he is the savior.

18:04So talking about Christ. So it's right there. I mean, headship is right there in Ephesians 523. But here's the problem though. So when you begin to look at like the Greek meaning of the word head. So I, in by the way, I'm never going to try to pronounce the right word. So you look it up. I always mess it up. So I'm not going to try to go there. But when Paul was talking about the word for head, it simply means like the head of a body. So it means just, you know, it's what you think it is. But the meaning there is heavily debated between the theologians. So some believe that head, the way Paul is using that is meaning source. Like Eve was taken from Adam's rib. Therefore, Adam is the source of Eve. Others really hear that word head and define it as authority. And so regardless of what you believe the word, you know, in study it, I mean, you go and you'll see the debate.

19:11But here's what I never noticed. So this was huge for me is that Paul immediately then uses that word and then goes on to explain what he means by that. He said the word headship. So he says head what he actually means by it. He goes on to inverses 25 through 29. He describes then leadership, meaning self giving sacrificial love that nourishes and cherishes and helps his wife to flourish. So we can give the man a spear. Let's say, okay, it means authority. But Paul then goes on to define it. And that's what matters here. Paul is the one that authored that. So what did he really mean by it? And that's what I love is that he's gone on to say it's all about sacrificial love that as Christ laid down his life for his bride, the church.

20:13So we as a husband, I should do the same thing. And then he goes on to say all kinds of things. A matter of fact, in that whole passage, Ephesians 5, 21 through 33, 70% of the words are directed to the husband. Because Paul is basically saying this is such a big deal. That was so radical in his day and age. Husbands didn't need to be told to rule over their wives. That's exactly what was going on. Women were already submitting. They were already being ruled over. And so what's radical about that is for the first time Paul saying, okay, no, that's not God's design. That's not what he wanted for your role as a husband. He wants you to lead, but how do you lead is to do with Christ modeled? And that's the lay down your life to cherish her, to nourish her, to help her flourish, to become the best version of who God created her to be. That's the difference. The husband is the leader all day long. But the key is then to define what Paul actually meant in what Jesus then modeled for us because that's really then what it looks like lived out.

21:23So you're saying that headship is not like a king sitting on a throne. Instead, it's about Jesus dying on the cross and sacrificing his life for us. Absolutely. Thus, husband's leadership isn't measured through how much power he holds. Am I getting it? You're saying the same thing. Amen. But by how willingly he lays down his life, so his wife can flourish. Yes. That's so different than how often this verse is interpreted. Right. And what I've even heard. Right. And so many of these lies I hear in my office, and it's just a little bit, I always say, well, meaning individuals have communicated this. But is that really what it means? And I love that you've delved into this to really figure out what does this mean? What does it look like? Yeah. But Greg, this is where I think the manosphere gets really, really dangerous because once a man believes headship means he's in charge, it's a short step to the next lie that his wife actually owes him her submission.

22:23And it's his job to enforce it or to make her submit. Even saying this is hard for me. So is that really what scripture teaches? Please tell us. Yeah, not at all. So again, I would frame the manosphere claim by this is the head of his wife. A husband has the God given right to demand her submission. Her obedience is his to enforce in maintaining authority and dominance is the key to earning than her respect. And so again, we're using terms that are right there in the scripture. Those are undeniable. I 100% believe that he has given husbands and wives very clear roles. Right. Like they're right there. But let's understand what they really mean. And so that key verse then is Ephesians 522, which says the wife submit yourselves to your unhusband as you do to the Lord.

23:23So it's easy to twist that. It's easy then for the manosphere, you know, playbook to say that's right there. So your job then is to get your wife to then submit. But Paul is certainly giving a real command there. But it's directed to the wife. This is where I think husbands totally missed it. He's not talking to us as husbands. He's talking to you as a wife. It is not my job to figure that out for you. That's your job. That's between you and the Lord. Yeah. And even the fact that you're talking about the S word submission is just out there because so often we don't talk about it. Therefore we don't understand what it means. But it's in scripture. It is in nowhere in that scripture that you're talking about is a husband commanded to make his wife submit. Or does it ever give him permission to demand obedience? And so this is something that is fully between you and the Lord in the same way.

24:24It's not your job, Aaron, to come to me and say, I don't agree with your leadership. I don't think you're leading very well. Your spiritual leadership is a little confusing to me. Like we need to be able to talk about these things with our relationship. But that's not your job to get me to lead in the way that you want me to. Nor is it my job to get you to submit in the way that I think you should. Well, and it's looking at marriage and knowing that we don't do this marriage thing in isolation. That we both have individual roles, but we are called to submit to one another as well as give feedback and grow as a result of the other person's perspective to hear each other, to listen to each other. Interestingly enough, my dissertation results came back. And one of the top five things that is predictive of marital health and a marriage is interestingly enough listening, communication listening to each other. Respect was on there on a green wall. Respecting each other.

25:26So it's not just one or the other. It's respecting each other. And I love when research, and I was going to say secular research, but really this is Christian research research research and it's validated and clinically statistically sound. I need to defend myself a little bit that I actually might know what I'm doing and my statistician absolutely knew what he was doing. But respecting each other, listening to each other, loving each other, all these things are there. And it aligns with scripture. But often that's not what is presented and missed reading these verses. These hard to understand verses. Yeah, and if you want to get all nerdy, and that's a Greek out for a second. So we're talking about verse 22. Wait, what did you just say? Let's Greek out together. All right. So when it says wives submit yourself. So our modern English translators put the word submit there. But in the original Greek, it says wives unto your husbands.

26:27There is no word submit there. It's actually borrowing the word submit from verse 21 where it says submit undue one another. So Paul is using this idea of submitting undue one another. And then talking about how does that apply then to wife and how does that apply then to a husband? How does she live it at? How does he live it out? So you can check that out. We don't have time to get into that. But one of the things I want to talk about when we talk about submission is notice it says submit yourselves to your husbands as you do to the Lord. There's another verse that says as fitting talking about submission is fitting to the Lord. So what I love is that the apostle Paul here is saying to a wife through his use of the Greek in the grammar to submit yourself. That's a voluntary posture. That's something that she does willingly that she chooses to do.

27:27But always as an active worship to God, it's not your submission is not about me. And then what I like is that Paul goes on to then frame that around protection and there's boundaries that submission isn't open ended as fitting to the Lord. And what that's really saying is that your submission ends anytime that there's sin anytime that it becomes abusive any of that. Like that's not what he's saying. He's saying that this has to fit into what God would be saying what he wants and what what he's laying out. So there's clear boundaries around this idea of submission. And that's why I always say let me say it again because I want to be crystal clear is fitting to the Lord as it says as to the Lord both of those phrases means wife submission.

28:27So hear me never requires her to participate in sin abuse or anything contrary to Christ. And what I hear you saying in scripture women wives are called to submission, but you're saying that is a heart stance that is between her and the Lord. Absolutely. And is never a husband's right to demand submission. It's not up to me. It's my willingness and my heart stance between me and the Lord. Absolutely. And how that submission then because we often hear the word is then look like and that's where Paul goes on to define it around respect. And so that's a great conversation between you and I is to talk about for both of us. What does respect look like and how do I respect you? How do you respect me and we can have that that conversation. It is never okay for a woman to be mistreated, abused, minimized as a result of submission.

29:30And that's not okay. Yeah. And that's why here and focus on the family you give us a call if that's going on call us 800 the letter A family. And please let one of our counselors kind of walk you through. We've got some incredible good, helpful content on if you're experiencing abuse within your marriage. Boy, we want to help. Yeah. And the other thing I want to say is we're not villainizing men either. There are men well-meaning men and not all men have done this, but there are well-meaning men who've interpreted these verses. And so many of these verses even theologians can't decide what the actual meaning is or the application. But when there's been mistreatment of women, there's a misapplication there. 100%. Because that's not Jesus's heart. He valued women. Right. He made strong women. But we need strong men too. We each have different roles. Men are called to husbands are called to leadership. Wives are called to submission, but we're called to mutual respect.

30:33And so playing that out and understanding that is so important, so important. Absolutely. And we have a great resource to help us understand this even more. It's called Bearded Gospel Men, the Epic Quest for Manliness and Godliness. When I'm wondering, reading that titled The Bearded Gospel Men, the Epic Quest for Manliness and Godliness. Is there a connection? I didn't ever think of this between herriness and holiness. I've never heard that before. Well, there is no shave November. And now there's disembeared. So those are pretty popular. So Jesus probably most likely had a beard as well. Every picture I've ever seen, Jesus is had a beard. But what we're really appealing to is a man who can hold their own, take care of their families and love Jesus. First and foremost, love Jesus. And Bearded Gospel Men is a devotional for guys, for men, challenging them to rise to their higher calling. The humor and facial hair are just part of the broader conversation.

31:35Yeah, and you can get a copy of this book for a gift of any amount. So just click on the show notes for more information. So we've covered three lies today, the curse mistaken for command, headship mistaken for authority, and submission turned into something to enforce, instead something that's freely given. And remember God's design for marriage was never about one person winning in the other losing. It's about two people becoming one team serving each other as a follow Christ together. Ephesians 521 encourages us to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Our prayer is that you'll leave today encouraged to practice mutual respect in ways that honor God and strengthen your marriage. But we're only halfway through this conversation, right? No, we've got three more lies.

32:36More to come, we're getting into it. Next time we're going to get into what this counterfeit authority actually does inside a marriage. What happens? How it changes the way a husband treats his wife's heart, her character, and even her body. And I can't wait this next episode. It's lie number four that absolutely is transformed me as a husband, understanding my purpose around sacrificial love. And something that I never realized before I really started studying on this. So I can't wait to get into that next week. Yep, and that conversation is coming up in our next episode, so don't miss it. Well, hey, thanks for joining us on crazy little thing called marriage. Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you in your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage.

33:39Yeah, we want to see you guys growing spiritually as individuals and as a couple. And that's why we loved jumping into the Greek and the Hebrew today. Really gone through the word of God. So you can turn around and invest in other couples to help them have driving marriages. Well, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage. Well, Is your marriage struggling? Communication breaking down, trust fading, conflict that never seems to resolve? Well, there's still hope. Hoper's stored marriage intensives by focus on the family helps couples step away from daily life and focus fully on rebuilding their relationship. And right now through the Marriage Investment Initiative, Hoper's stored is investing $1,000 toward every marriage intensive.

34:40Visit HoperStord.com slash marriage-investment.