The Manosphere and Lean In all in one episode!

0:00Welcome to Glamrs Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs viral articles, celebrity memoirs, and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea DeVontes, I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in step two. And today, we're doing sort of a hybrid documentary book club slash viral article episode covering Louis Theroux's new documentary. It's on Netflix, and it's titled Inside the Manosphere. And an article from the Wall Street Journal on how former meta CEO and lean-in girlboss founder Cheryl Sandberg is trying to combat the manosphere supposedly. We've got some weird updates now. Let me bring in my guests today to discuss my guests are Becca Platsky and Robbie Slowick. They are the hosts of the amazing podcast corporate gossip. Now, you guys know corporate gossip. Becca's been on this podcast a lot. And Becca just added Robbie

1:03as a co-host. And I was so excited. Robbie is a dear friend of mine. Hi, Robbie, Chelsea. You get to speak first because you're the new guest. Oh, because I'm, because this is the man. Yes. Yes. But I love corporate gossip. And when Becca, I heard you were adding Robbie. I was so excited. I was like, you both have to come on my podcast and plug your podcast. How has it been going, Becca? Having Robbie on the pod? Yeah. I mean, I think just the male energy and like the alpha type. Which I bring you that brings and yeah, if you're just listening to this, I guess I'll just describe Robbie physically. Huge, nice, massive, like wide, swole. Yeah. Yeah. This is all actually just grabbing her husband body type. I have nothing like. No, it's been great. I also want to give a fun fact about Robbie, which is that for the cookies, fun facts about Robbie is Robbie hooked me in. Yes, or up. He is the person who introduced me to my husband, which I don't think is manosphere

2:04behavior. I don't think manosphere wants women to be happy. But I guess they do want to stab. We want you to submit to a man. And yes, he was the closest one around I could find. Oh, my God. Okay. So what we decided to discuss the manosphere documentary, which we've gotten some requests from. Also, Becca is our problematic robot correspondent. She has helped us cover memoirs like Olivia Newsy, Kimberly Gargoyle, which everyone always thinks I'm pronouncing that wrong. I'm pretty sure they say Kimberly Gargoyle, but I know it's Kimberly Gargoyle. More importantly, all of our Cheryl Sandberg content and, you know, the careless people memoir, which exposed Cheryl Sandberg. Becca, do you want to tell the people the latest Cheryl Sandberg update? I just can't believe that there was a crossover here. Like she's inescapable. Yeah. We decided to do the manosphere documentary for this episode. The corporate gossip podcast. I guess we dance around the edges of the manosphere because there's so many toxic men that we talk

3:08about in the podcast. But I couldn't believe when I googled latest on the manosphere that Cheryl frickin Sandberg's face came up. Obviously, we know that her nonprofit lean in is in its last, I'd say, death throws of like millennial era relevance. And her latest pivot is fighting the manosphere. And she made news because she fired, I guess, the previous CEO of lean in and replaced her with a 25-year-old Bridget Grizzrold who didn't have any nonprofit experience. Nope. And I guess she was that like the head of AI. But why this is notable for Cheryl Sandberg is that, you know, when we read the memoir Caroless People by Sarah Wind Williams, you'll remember that there was a whole subplot about Cheryl having really questionable relationships with young, pretty female staffers, including asking them to sleep in bed with her, buying lingerie for her. Like when the news came out about Caroless People, that was like a huge

4:14talking point. And so it's kind of bold for Cheryl Sandberg to be like, no, I'm going to double down. She's going to lean in. How dare you, Robbie. I think what's even worse is that people have gone and done some investigating and the highest paid staffers or leadership management at lean in. Two of them have quit since this 25-year-old was hired. So it can't even be the fairy tale of like you guys, like we said. If you raise your hand enough, you'll get a promotion. This 25-year-old girl, she leaned on the best and she's the best because it sounds like all the people around Cheryl were like, what have you done? We quit. Right. Those highest paid people, by the way, making $300,000 a year. Now, are you saying that with shade or were you saying that with praise? I'm saying it kind of both ways. One way is like to leave a $300,000 a year job in what's happening in the job market is like you must be unbelievably pissed off. And then I'm saying with the shade of like not just lean in, but generally any nonprofit is like there is a class on top

5:18that is just skimming as much money as they possibly can off of this grift. Yeah. Oh such a good point. I also, I just in my core, I don't believe lean ins and nonprofit because the whole thing was like get money girl. So you know what I mean? And it's so Amanda Frances coded to our Beverly Hills Housewives watchers out there. It's just very much like you can do it to girl boss like all that, you know, 2013 coded, you know, pay that for this course. Manifest wealth come do a woman circle. Now she's also like, Christening a submarine. Yeah. If you're listening and you're like, what the hell is going on? Yes. Correct. She has declared she's fighting the manosphere. She has hired a 25 year old girl with no experience. People around her have quit and then she went and christened a submarine. She said in her speech like, you know, the Navy is the most powerful fighting force the world has ever seen. And it's like we literally were a month into an illegal war right now. Like it's not the soldiers fault, but it's not the time to be like, this is the best.

6:22This is what I want to associate myself with the people who are starting an illegal war. But she also pulled in like all the female members and was like, you girls come be in my video about the Navy. And how does this fight the manosphere? Do we know of any other efforts Cheryl has done to combat the manosphere in this new launch? She put out a video saying that it's not just the manosphere she's fighting against. It's also the idea of tradwives, which I guess many people would say it's like two sides of the same coin like by raising men. You're also like making women more submissive. So that's a huge part of it where she's coming out and saying this tradwife is dangerous. You know, women can't have it all. And just if you're not a full time home maker, that doesn't necessarily make you a bad wife or a bad mother. And like she hits her normal talking points. But of course, what she never mentions is while she was doing girl boss stuff, she had like a huge army for lack of a better term of housekeepers and caretakers and all of this other stuff.

7:28So it's it's kind of like, again, we've been here before Cheryl. You've already been exposed for this type of hypocrisy. And here you are again, just hitting the same notes. And I think like to me, this kind of throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks is possibly maybe she's running out of money. I mean, it's not cheap to run a nonprofit for 10 years. I think she's running out of relevance. And I think this is just like she's going to try anything. And I think she's going to move towards right wing grifter. Yeah, you deemed me like I think she's going to go right wing, which I thought about it for a second. And I was like, what's so interesting about that is that she wouldn't have to change any of the copy and any of the talking points because she already is a right wing grifter in liberal cosplay. But like she doesn't actually push for any progressive ideals. So there wouldn't have to be a huge brand shift. I also just think if you're like MO that you're known for is kind of like sexually harassing women in the workplace. You're going to fight pretty hard against an ideology that's like, let's get women out of the workplace. You know, you're like, this is this is my feeding ground. You know, don't stay home. How

8:32am I going to get my paws on you if you're in the kitchen? You know, it is such a sick twist that this is what like that is just the last thing I thought was going to come out about Cheryl Sandberg is that she's actually the greatest sexual harasser of young women. I think another devastating point before we move on to the manosphere documentary is that this video she put out being like yay Navy. I know this shouldn't matter, but it really, really pisses me off or upsets me. I don't know why, but she just hired a 25 year old girl. She was like, AI, young women, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then in her little Instagram video, do you remember what song she's playing behind her girl power video? This girl is on fire. Finally, she keeps, I mean, like, did she stop, did she publish her book, made a playlist for it, never listened to another song again? I don't know if like this girl lies on fire is like a good song to be playing with a bunch of like soldier footage. Right. What are you doing? It's not girl boss. It's not safe. It's not thematic. Like, who did this? It's definitely not leaning into your 25 year old CEO to be like, yeah, the strongest from the

9:37year she was born probably. I want to be like, this is grounds to fire her for not making sure your social media team didn't do just a little better for you. Okay, let's transition from the girl of sphere to the manosphere. Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. I've been doing a little spring reset with my closet lately, really just trying to pare down and get rid of stuff. And as I was getting rid of things, I realized the pieces I was for short keeping the ones at the top of my wardrobe were from Quince. They are well made, versatile, easy to reach for every day. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They have all kinds of inclusive sizes. The fabrics feel elevated. The fits are thoughtful. And the pricing makes sense and doesn't make you sweat. Quince makes products using premium materials like 100% European linen. They have styles starting around $50. They have things that are lightweight, breathable,

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12:43That's Thrive Cosmetics, C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-C-S dot com slash glamorous. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. So this is a documentary that went up on Netflix. Louis Thoreau is behind it. Now here's how I knew him. Christina is going to play a little TikTok song that went viral. This is Louis Rapping. All right, so that's how I knew Louis from that song that went viral on TikTok. Everyone was making videos about it. But to set up this episode, Louis has made a bunch of documentaries in the past. This is his latest inside the atmosphere. What would you say is the message? I coach boys how to make money. Wow, this is a nice spot. How to be outside the system.

13:44How to be proper guys. Shut up or not. Would you see me that way? Did you look at my arms? The stature's not saying too much. Now, Louis is a British journalist, broadcaster and author. He's won three British Academy television awards. And he's known for other documentaries such as Louis Thoreau's Weird Weekins, when Louis met dot, dot, dot. And it would be people that he would meet with. And also he's known for a big interview he did. It was a follow up documentary about Jimmy Savile for the BBC to explore how the late entertainer Jimmy had continued so much abuse and sexual assaults while being friends and being interviewed by people like Louis who did not know it was going on. And so the follow up documentary Savile aired on the BBC in 2016 and was a huge thing. And so he did this documentary inside the atmosphere to explore, you know, the TikToking,

14:45Instagram, podcasting world of the manosphere, which talks about many concepts, but the ones that are going to come up in this episode primarily are one-sided monogamy, where the men are not monogamous, but the women they're with are and something that they talk about a lot in the manosphere, men having to earn their value in life and women not having to. And a few other concepts of why they make this content that's pretty much has three components, which is like get swole, get money, and get women. And so he talks to some big voices in this space. Specifically, he talks to Harrison Sullivan known as H.S. Tiki Taki. That's my favorite. I'm, come on, that's fun. It's fun. I've been going by RS Tiki Taki recently. RS Tiki. Actually, Robbie, that is an account you should go. Then Nicholas Kin De Balenthazi known as Sneco and Amru Fudel known as Myron Games.

15:47Now that's the one I understand the least because Sneco and H.S. Tiki Taki are given like fun superhero names of TikTok, but Myron Games just sounds like a just a new name. I think it's a name that's like I'm trying to be accepted by like kind of racist coded people and Myron Games is going to go over better. That's such a brutal because that's kind of what I read in this name change. I was like, oh, just this doesn't seem fun for you, but yeah, okay, so that's what he chose. So he follows them. He gets a lot of footage about this kind of talking about what's behind the manosphere. Overall, take Becca on this documentary, just what did you think over? I guess like the thing that I kept thinking is they were not prepared for any follow-up question whatsoever. Throughout the documentaries, as he's talking to each of these people, he'll have them explain what their point of view is and then ask a single follow-up question and they all completely fall apart. I think that's just kind of reflective of the internet era where they've grown up that by the way, in no small part was enabled by somebody like Cheryl Sandberg and I don't think

16:49that should be something that we just glossed over. She made a lot of this happen, but when you're able to just spend 17 hours on the internet and never get pushed back of any of your beliefs, like this is kind of the level of brain rot that results. And when the algorithm was specifically designed, and they say this in the documentary, like the more combative, aggressive, controversial, and fucked up I am, the more hits views and clicks I get, which is how I am financially making my money. So I'm incentivized to always go in that direction. So yes, that's the Cheryl Sandberg of it all, because this is how these men make their money. Justin Waller. He and Myron both talk about one-sided monogamy, which is where there's a primary woman who is only monogamous to them, but then they get to sleep around with tons of women and do whatever they want to do. And that's one-sided monogamy, I guess. Isn't that just polygamy? Yeah, except without legal binding contracts where they ever have to give the side women money. Which I gotta tell you, since polygamy is also illegal, there's only ever one legal wife. So yeah, maybe it is just polygamy except they're not like housing and clothing their mistresses. I guess there's no agreement.

17:52Like I go back to sister rives and I'm just kind of like that's kind of what Cody Brown was doing, but yeah, I guess there was no family. There was no agreement. Some of these women, I do get the set like everyone did fall apart in questioning, except the Justin Waller, that's a name Justin Waller, whose wife seemed like kind of on board with it, but I also suspect like she knows the agreement she made and she's like a great bee out of the house more. You know, like I don't genuinely like you. We have nothing to talk about, but I've got this life because of like you're grifting and scamming. So please go out and be with other women. Just like be away from me as much as possible. Yeah, also when they asked Myron's partner who in the documentary credits, they're like they have broken up, but when they ask her like, how are you okay with this? She basically says, oh, he's entirely different when he's off yet. So I know this is just a grift and I have a feeling that's Justin Waller's wife too of like, I'm going to say this to camera to get money for our children and then like and then whatever behind the scenes. Robbie, what was your take on the documentary as a whole? It's just it's sad in a lot of ways, but I was also eye-opening in that.

19:00These guys in some ways were like shockingly honest about the prison they're trapped in and the fact that they're grifters. You know, to me the most interesting part was when Thoreau asked H.S. Tiki Taki, like why not just be a good person and rather than push back and say like I am being a good person or that he like really honestly took some time to think and was like because if I was a good person no one would care. I wouldn't be doing outrageous stuff and I would be broke and I'm not living to be broke. I don't care about the ramifications of my actions as long as I'm rich and that's what I'm doing and that was like a kind of shocking level of honesty and introspection for a guy like that. Good point. Yeah, my overall take on it was like when people say, do I need to watch this documentary for me? No. It was really sad. It was really sad and I guess the most shocking part is I just really felt for the guys and I felt for them in the way of like all of the women who are platform this documentary and all the men are all suffering from the same thing which is patriarchy. Everyone once you spent a couple minutes with them they felt full of

20:03fear. Yes. They felt sad. I want to say I coined the term. I don't know we'll find out but to me it's a it's a menstrual show. You know they are that's good. They are performing some version of manhood that is not what manhood is so they are locked into these characters and that's the thing they're not like they're lacking your level of improv training Chelsea where it's like oh my god thank you hot plugs second city Chicago manosphere takes classes even though I'm pretty sure I already came up with a lot of. But you know the second they're asked a question and that has to kind of break them out of their character and they have to think as themselves for a second they don't know how to handle it because everything is a guy. The character probably sits the most awkwardly on the Justin Waller guy and everything he says is canned you know where he makes a point to be like that car is bullshit I don't that's not success or the Louis Theroux says nice apartment and he just like responds beautiful at dusk where it's like that is a canned response there's no humanity no vulnerability and the second Louis just prize a little bit tries to get

21:06to that vulnerability and humanity that's when these guys melt yes when he said oh so you own this and he's like the amount of fear out of his house he's like I rent but I have four other places and this is $20,000 a month yeah and then he goes he goes do you have kids and he goes do you know how many he goes I got a couple and like as if to say oh I don't know how many kids I have I'm crazy might see it's all over the place he goes no I have two daughters I love them very much yeah yeah I don't want them on camera because I know this being on camera would just risk and I need to protect them it reminds me that what's the one with Diane Keaton yeah Jack Nicholson it's something's got to give yeah where he's like I like to travel light or whatever and she's like what does that mean where it's like because I know these types of guys you know who like have these canned lines and then the second you push a little bit and I have like tangential connection to some of these manosphere guys I know I know you do okay you do have tangential connections what's your view on it then knowing them a little closer than maybe just through the lens of this documentary in some ways it's nice because these people have like gone out of their

22:11way to make some people who I'm friends with like their lives hell because of their different versions of masculinity but also the friends of mine whose lives they've made hell like deserve it a little bit because they play in this false masculinity space so it's like you've left yourself open to this type of criticism from these types of people but the thing that it's never more clear than anything is like call it manosphere whatever it's a boyosphere you know like the people watching this are 13 14 15 no adult man believes in it as we talked about this on like the tie Lewis episodes like adults in general don't want a Lamborghini because it's ridiculous a little boy wants a Lamborghini yeah that's such a good point one of the parts that struck me the most because overall I felt like going into this manosphere documentary I wanted to see something I didn't know and I feel like we already know that they're performing its foreclicks it mostly goes to 13 year olds who then that's what the show adolescents on Netflix was about like these young men

23:11getting indoctrinated into like violence and hating women I think the most surprising part was yeah again like that these men didn't seem very happy or they just weren't good at performing happiness well like because it just shattered so quickly I don't think that's their intention either from my perspective of watching them I think that they would view happiness as feminine and I think rage and aggression and always having a chip on your shoulder you know there was a guy a New Yorker article about these camps where you can go and kind of have this immersive experience where they can turn you into a man and one of the guys who ran the camp got to fight with somebody and he said the fight was consensual and he got arrested for it and went to jail but ultimately he said it was consensual but there's also a part of me that's like I wonder if it was like there's so much like anger just bubbling up to the surface that where would joy or happiness even have any space to yeah to live there and I think that they're fine with that that's a really good point

24:12I think another theme in just misogyny that you see in general but from every like misogynist I know what's up boys I see you out there my guys like they have this deep undying love for their mother and then no other woman can come close to their mother and you know our HS Tiki Taki he says that as well other you know other birds ain't like me mom you know like they stick or you know whatever that was really impressive grew up in England you know that's exactly what HS Tiki sounds like for anyone listening you're like who's he doing impression of he's doing impression of HS Tiki Taki and it was amazing but that is what it's they're like these other everyone every other woman is trash and uses because my my mommy he even calls her mommy at some point like she takes care of all my knees she fulfills everything that I could want and other women will never stack up and I hate them for it yes seeing his mom in the documentary was brutal because when he can't defend himself or go toe to toe with Louis and so his mom taps in and starts going at it I was like well she's a better speaker than you are of these misogynist talking points for me

25:14it was just really clear that the problem is capitalism and instead of looking at the system they just shift it to gender politics because it's easier to understand than this very complicated system of like why you don't have any worth in this world and one of the main talking points they go on is that women are born with value and men have to earn their value and when women say well how am I born with value they say you are born with tips in a vagina or you are born with beauty and men don't get to be born with that we have to earn our worth in the world which would be like money it's this inherent misunderstanding from the very beginning premise which is like sorry but women aren't born with beauty and also that the prize being sex you are born with like a vagina therefore that is a prize therefore I have to earn it that was one of the weirdest talking points me that they seem to talk about the most what did you guys think of that part of it okay I don't

26:15it's weird because I was reading the Lindy West book while I was also watching this manuscript okay back on hey well I found it interesting because she said something similar where she said the patriarchy isn't working for me as a plus size person where I don't get these things that that women get and I saw the same kind of thinking from these men who said the patriarchy isn't working for us maybe there's not a connection I just found that interesting like it was like the same structure I totally agree with you what I thought was interesting is Myron on his show and in some segment he had some equation he would put up on the board where he would ask a woman like how tall do you want a guy to be how much money should he make what should his race be all these things and then he would calculate okay your type is less than one percent of all men like how dare you women are crazy do you see the standards for men what I think is so interesting is that he never ran the equation of and what women do you all want which would be you know a certain weight size a certain personality a certain amount of looks

27:18that would also be less than one percent of women and they seem to not see that less than one percent of women which is what Lindy's talking about I am not the size to certain looks that the patriarchy supports therefore I don't get anything from the patriarchy the way these men don't and they don't seem to understand that only applies to like a very small amount of women this thing that they're very mad at it's just such a deeply transactional world view that like quantifies everything via statistics and like completely rejects the idea of just simple like connection and attraction which just happens out in the real world based on whatever not everything runs through a computer filter of like this is that you know it's like sure what we all probably want is some version of the top 0.001 percent but like as you go out in the world and meet people you realize you click and you've never talked about how much money they make or you know it's just like that's how real relationships are formed okay here's my theory that's going to put me with the manosphere boys we ready we ready to have an enemy on this podcast a lot of adulthood for men

28:19is revenge for the reality of high school and puberty where as people come into their you know puberty and sexuality at the beginning of that the power is deeply imbalanced right for men of the same right for your ninth grade boy and you approach a ninth grade girl she's very likely to date a junior which in high school is a level of status right suddenly she's getting rides in a car and going to parties and they have access to stuff and you know this is how those guys who are just like scumbag in cells are like but I'm the nice guy don't you want to be with a nice guy you slut and so that's kind of what happens to them but that kind of like exponentially grows through their life and by the time they're 21 22 23 or 30 and have some money then they're like now I'm in charge and then I think that's a popular theory to a lot of this that men feel what I want to point out is what I think I was maybe poorly saying earlier is that you're like oh a ninth grade boy to a ninth grade girl she's probably dating a junior you are only talking about five percent of those ninth grade

29:22girls like think of all the girls in ninth grade who are fucking struggling being called ugly being told they're fat told they're not cute enough not hot enough who don't have interests that are like just men like there's so many girls in ninth grade suffering the exact same way like all kids in ninth grade and then they point to like the one girl they want to date dating a junior and they're like I'll have revenge forever I think that's what kills me about this construct it's like they're not actually paying attention to women they're mad at one woman and then they're making a blanket state about women and feminism and what women get in this world because every time I hear them talk about all the things women get I think what yeah where well and it's also like and I think you're right I think they do operate with blinders on where they just see this one girl that they want and they don't ever open up the aperture and and see anything else I think I mean it says it's to me it's as simple as they don't read they don't learn other things they don't talk to anybody who's outside of their one little world and it just is constant reinforcement it's brain rot I really

30:27think that's that's what it comes down to is like they don't have the synapses and the connections that most people have because they started with these blinders on and they never took them off and so they're just seeing this world through this tiny little pinhole and not only that the only thing going through that pinhole is straight up rage and horniness I agree with you Chelsea I feel bad for these guys like I feel empathy and it's genuinely sad because like you could see a million different people who could have gone down that path but one person said you know what you shouldn't do taekwondo I'm doing a chorus down the street and join me and like then they're getting exposed to all these different people and like it's it just sucks that some people didn't get to have that experience and went on that path bringing this back to this being somewhat of a literary podcast I do think it's brain rot and I do think when you look at the amount of females who read fiction and males to read fiction and it's mostly a women-powered industry reading teaches you empathy you have to sit in another character's brain and body and thoughts and like and and it's

31:28an enjoyable exercise that expands your mind and I think like reading going down plays into this I think like less fiction and more hs tiki talky being like this is the world as it is reinforcing that one thought because otherwise wouldn't you open up your eyes to all the girls in ninth grade undergoing massive amounts of violence and sexual harassment because they are going through puberty now Chelsea they do read they read fine-rand and uh urinal hemingway they read that they read about a guy who has CTE and cheated on his wife and it was an alcoholic oh yeah yeah you're right okay were there any other highlights from the manosphere documentary that we should hit that that the people need to know about you know I think that there there's these moments where these guys start to you know their fans get them suspicious of Louis the row and you see their anger boiling up and bubbling up you see them kind of start to rage you see them start to you know take it out on him and this isn't my observation I think I saw it somewhere on twitter at some point years ago but like it's funny that women always get written off as like too emotional because somehow

32:33we've made anger not an emotion you know like somehow anger and rage don't count as emotions but like these guys are so emotional the second they think something's right they just this anger and venom comes out of them and they have such emotional breakdowns on a light amount of questioning the only thing they seem to be able to do with Louis and this is mostly from HS Tiktokie is he just tries to make him look stupid which he succeeds in several times and then that's like a point for him but he never succeeds in making his theology or way of life makes sense but he can make him look stupid sometimes and that's when his fans take his side but yeah otherwise Louis is asking them questions and they're having emotional meltdowns well and that was the other thing that I loved about the documentary because there could have been another option and I again I haven't seen his other work but like there could have been another option where you never see Louis and he's just like and you're just watching this world and having like talking head interviews but the juxtaposition between Louis

33:37who's like a regular guy you would see on the street and who there was there's another moment often when he talks to these guys he asks the question they answer and he just like let's sit sit there and they immediately freak out but it's just so funny to watch them talk to a normal person a person who they probably never interact with or a type of person that they never interact with in their normal life other than like at the coffee shop ordering coffee or whatever but like having extended conversation with an average guy is just very funny to me because I can't do it yeah overall though and please disagree with me on this I thought we we did a terrible job but he did a terrible job I thought what he did was show up ask some questions let them sit in it and then leave but I did not feel like he unearthed something deeper I don't feel like he even succeeded in turning their own fan base against them or showing enough of a weakness in what they're doing that it would actually make a dent it just kind of felt like I could turn on their own videos and see everything that I saw while watching the Manus View documentary but please push back

34:41if you disagree I actually just this morning I read a article from the nation that is basically making the same point you're making which is okay yeah which was essentially that like there's nothing that you can see these guys are filming themselves the whole time anyway and so there's kind of nothing you see in this documentary that you wouldn't see just looking at their feed and kind of nothing is gained the other point it did make which I I kind of hadn't thought about but is true is that like also these are tier two Manus fear guys like he didn't get the tip top guys this isn't Andrew date and Rogan and Jordan Peterson like these are the guys who are little they're the next part of the pyramid who in fact they're like funneling money up to those guys right join this thing sign up for Andrew Tates classes and I get a little piece of that money but they are the tier two guys so they have even more of like insecurity to them yeah you know I felt like the documentary should have pivoted or I wish there would be a documentary focusing not on those guys tier two or tier one which have all their talking points like they this is something they

35:42livestream constantly and work on to just say the shit they're gonna say to make people mad but the moment he talked to those two guys on the beach who follow Justin Waller and are deeply moved by him that's when I learned the most about the the the atmosphere like why people follow it and I feel like there should be an entire documentary just like going to the people who are trying to become them and sitting with them and also I bet you could re indoctrinate them into something better in like 10 minutes or less like I was looking at them and I was like if they went to a Tony Robin seminar they'd be following Tony Robbins like they just need help yeah and this is what made it onto their algorithm it felt like they are sincere in their want to be better and they need a pathway and that is where I guess that might be a conservative talking point but I did feel like oh shit like they're sad and it's not a gendered thing we're all fucking sad life sucks right now like capitalism has ruined our fucking lives you're saying lean in all episode I'm saying capitalism

36:43all episode but it's like yeah life sucks for everyone right now this is this path that they have believed can't get them out of it and if they were shown a different path they would follow that one to fully bring this back and tie it all in a bow is Amanda Francis there is a girl osphere doing the exact same thing which is I am teaching you to manifest your wealth come take my class and the only thing she teaches you is how to teach other people how to manifest their wealth there's no actual like financial skills in it and I think there's a lot of girlosphere shit going on that hasn't gotten clumped into this label because I guess lean in took that for us already but like the same thing is happening to girls with a different set of rules and constructs and same thing with tradwives like it's just here are five things you could live under capitalism and try and make a buck off of go make it a movement and it's happening to I think all genders I think the interesting documentary would be like to your point about I agree with you that Louis really didn't do much with this ladies if you have any documentation it would be really interesting to see

37:48the other side of this like she says my runs girlfriend says he's not like this at home show me like what does that actually look like what does he act like where is there daylight between what he's showing on on tape and where who he actually is and I think when you can show daylight between the grifter and their actual persona that's where it's really interesting and I think you I agree and also I would be like how do you get a security detail I know that's so dangerous because they have this whole little army that would turn against a woman and also I don't know if I need to see that back guy I think it's clear how you're right I think it's clear they're like losers it's clear miren was sad that his girlfriend broke up and him trying to like get power back in that moment to be like and go clean the room like he's pathetic he was a pathetic character and you could tell she was like oh he's playing his character and like you could tell it wasn't real right which again to say take a theater class take it oh my god manosphere boys I'm really gonna need you to get some arts education if you were gonna continue

38:51to pull off these characters I'd like some better character development all things we can continue over in the girls here you have no backstory at all with these guys yeah my god okay Robbie any final thoughts is the man on this manosphere episode as we sign up you know I think if you're a fan of this podcast and you want to learn how to be more of a man I offer courses for that I can teach you it's $600 a week oh no I it's uh you know I think the good news is that like I don't know anyone who takes this stuff seriously and respects it like the unfortunate thing is this is corrupting like kids but you know at any point in time there's some weird shit corrupting kids that most of them grow out of as they become more adult you know as they grow up and get smarter who knows the dumb shit I was into I you know I was into like M&M when I was 13 to 15 and that wasn't like this but like certainly the messaging wasn't inspirational and you know it Robbie so exactly I thought he was so smart and he worked so hard and it took me a while

39:51for her I was like wait is this song about murdering women totally but the alarm bells for me on this go off just from the fact that like all of this is based on vice and that's almost all that's left in the economy of anything they're sponsored by online gambling by pornography by you know fake money and even that stuff is pervasive in everything now CNN is brought to you by Kalshi in polymarket and these like betting things it's just like a bummer to watch us in this very late capitalism where the only thing left is scams and vice yeah yeah well said and also when the manosphere makes its way out into other genres like love is blind which I just made this point on a previous episode but I'll tie it back again Alex I don't did you watch the season of love is blind Robbie we watch some of it the Ohio season there's this guy Alex who who was the talking points he was Justin Waller like everything was a talking point and he got matched up with a blonde McGall lady and she was like you're a dick and it's like if manosphere's gonna work

40:51anywhere it's supposed to be with her and he just couldn't get any leverage he couldn't the only places you succeed in the grift is where the grift remains it's not a grift that can move out into the real world because otherwise it just looks ridiculous Becca any last thoughts as a woman with a male co-host yeah I do I feel like I can speak to this no I'm curious to see what will happen in like eight to ten years when manosphere becomes chuggy and then like do we go back to like a an indie intellectual like you know handle bar mustache twee because these things only last so long now we're seeing Cheryl Sandberg like what she's doing was is very chuggy and it's like where where does this go yeah I'll be curious to see what happens I'm gonna get ahead of it this is great I'm gonna be the first trad husband I'm starting right now get get a little twee mustache I think that's great okay I adore you both adore your podcast will you just plug some of recent episode you did because you cover so many great stories what's one people should start

41:52well we just did one on amway we talked about in the same episode amway Amanda Frances and the Salem witch trials those are all connected and yeah ML and everything is an MLM and everything is a pyramid scheme it also goes all the way back to Reagan so that's one that was pretty fun but Robbie just joined us you know we started with Robbie last week with a great episode about Larry Ellison that that's a very troubled man if you're in the mood for more troubled men although you won't be for want of that if you're listening to this podcast yeah those are two that I'd point out those sound phenomenal I haven't listened to the amway one yet and I cannot wait that feels made for me Robbie I absolutely adore you I also forgot to tell people that Robbie and I wrote together on both John Stewart shows and so that's also like how we met each other and so I just love discussing with both of you I love that you both are on my favorite podcast corporate gossip now and everyone go listen to corporate gossip you can get anywhere you get

42:53podcasts and you don't like a social handle are you guys doing some hot Instagram just like press an iron on the beach we could use some YouTube followers if you guys don't mind yeah all right that YouTube on there I want to demand us to hear my Instagram so you can follow me there too great help Robbie get free thank you both is so much for coming on thanks Chelsea a big thank you to our senior managing producer Christina Lopez our executive producer Jordan our sound engineer Marcus home and our amazing associate producer Dominique Bonyus I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and Quince we will link those incredible brands in the show notes so go check them out everything is always linked in the show notes on Apple there's also transcripts and if you ever have questions go to the patreon chat range and I'll see you there