The Good Listening To Show with David L. Deutsch

0:00Welcome to another episode of The Good Listening To Show, your life and times with me, Chris Grimes. The storytelling show that features the clearing, where all good questions come to get asked, and all good stories come to be told. And where all my guests have two things in common. They're all creative individuals, and all with an interesting story to tell. For some lovely storytelling metaphors, a clearing, a tree, a juicy storytelling exercise called 5-4-3-2-1, some alchemy, some gold, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare, and a cake. So it's all to play for. So yes, welcome to The Good Listening To Show, your life and times with me, Chris Grimes. I also do comfortably here. Then we shall begin. And we're in Welcome, welcome. And as I like to say, Thrice Welcome, Han McCot, hang the consequences to a very, very

1:02glorious, housey day here in The Good Listening To Show clearing, the show in which I invite movers, makers, shakers, mavericks, influencers, and also personal heroes into a clearing or serious, happy place of my guests choosing as they all share with us their stories of distinction and genius, and talking of stories of distinction and genius. I am absolutely privileged to have a world-renowned legend in the clearing. David L. Deutsch, he's a copywriting genius, he's been called the billion dollar copywriter. You're called David L. Deutsch, my presumption that could be L for legend, but it might be to differentiate you from a British Oxford University, Atomic and Laser Physicist. I don't know if you knew you shared the same name, David, as that physicist. Yes, I like to say, what are the odds that two geniuses could have the same name, you know? What are the odds indeed? What are the odds of that, you know? And one of your, if I may say, disciples of your copywriting mentor ship scheme, Cassie

2:06Quinton, has been really, really helpful in introducing us, and I'm very delighted that she has, because it is really, really exciting, and you've created a bit of a buzz and a bit of a hum in the sort of hive mind of copywriters and writers that I know and have worked alongside. I do have a very lovely gentleman in Vietnam who's now sweating because he just assumes he's going to be out of a job because now I'm talking to the likes of David L. Deutsch. So for those of us that, well, I'm delighted to meet you and I've really enjoyed researching you. If I may call you the copywriter's copywriter, you spent the last four decades making sure companies got copy, and I'd very much like you to unpack that for us, but if someone doesn't have a frame of reference for you, David L. Deutsch, would you like to just say how you most like to answer the question, hello, what do you do? What's your way, David, of describing the sort of silky skill and the art of copywriting that you've brought to bear? You know, I guess the way to describe it is I help people get response in whatever that way they need to get a response, whether that's sending a letter to one person, you

3:11know, that a billion dollar deal depends on or whether that's writing an ad that goes to millions of people or a sales letter that goes to, you know, millions of people, whether it's a post on social media, you know, we all want to get response, we all want to be responded to in one way or another, and I help people with, you know, the persuasion, like how do you persuade someone, how do you convince them it's in their best interest to respond? You know, what are the mechanisms that have proven effective for that? And how do you even, you know, how do you even think about that? Because I think a lot of that, a lot of copywriting is really thinking, it's not, oh, these words, and I got to do these words here in this order, but it's really just thinking about what is that person, what is their day like, what is that person like, and what's going to, what do they care about, what do they, what keeps them up, and what are they going to respond to? And then writing into their pain in how you actually persuade them. Exactly. And just thinking into their pain though, yes, right, because I think people make the mistake of writing too quickly, yes, before they've really thought it out.

4:15And you've cut your teeth on the very best. I know that you were with the father of advertising back in the day, David Oglevi of Oglevi in Mayda. That's the acclaimed medicine avenue advertising agency. I think you first got going with, yes, yes. And that was incredible to get started there, because it was kind of like a teaching hospital, you know, the teaching's emanating from Oglevi and, you know, everybody was about learning and, you know, you had his books and you had him. And I was lucky in that he was a very results oriented advertising person. He wasn't into awards, right? He was into what moved the needle. He was into sales, you know, to sales. And he loved direct response. And so when I eventually went into direct response, I was prepared for that. And indeed, then the fruits of your love, labor and attention to what you're doing, you're now called the billion dollar, the billion dollar copywriter, which proves that, you know

5:15what you're talking about. What are some of the campaigns you're most, most proud of in this extraordinary 40 year career? You know, it's funny. A lot of the campaigns, you know, it was, it was fun doing stuff for general foods when I got to work with the Wicked Witch of the West from the Wizard of Oz, Margaret Hamilton. She was kind of the spokesperson for the advertising. And you know, the things that I remember are, it's funny, are kind of the biggest challenges. Like one time I had to write a book for us for what's called a state planning, which means after you die, how do you make sure your money goes to the right people? How do you make sure that your ears don't get taxed and all that? And it was just, not only was the most boring subject in the world, it was the most depressing subject in the world, because who wants to think about, you know, when they're gone? And the challenge of doing that and making it interesting, you know, the bullets, like how to avoid, how to avoid accidentally disinheriting your ears, right, turning boring stuff into something. That's a very important question we're already thinking.

6:17That's hooked me. We're all interested. Yeah. What's the answer? But it really taught me how do you take something that's boring and just factual and turn it into interesting, because I think that's what copyrighting is, right? It's making things interesting, it's making the old know, it's making the new familiar, you know, familiar as the old, and it's making things interesting. That aren't inherently interesting. And your mentioning legacy was a brilliant segue into something at the very end that, as we know, we first connected when I talked to you about something called legacy, liferelections.com, which is something I'm working on at the moment. And you were very generous in when I first got in touch with you, you gave me some copy ideas for it already, which I noticed was very instinctive of you. Yeah, yeah. I remember that. And that's, you know, that's something I love to do and you talk about, what do I do or what do I love to do? It's that. Like, it's looking at something and seeing what it needs and, you know, where it needs to go. And just opening people's eyes to a different way of thinking. And we'll come on to directing people to your speaking of writing.

7:19And well, you can describe it how you want, but it's your main frame of where you encourage people who want to be mentored in the art of writing to come along to, isn't it? Yes. The speaking of speaking of writing.com website. Yes. Now, I promise there's a very funky bit at the end called show is you kill our code, please and we'll point people very much to where they can come and find you, which is very exciting. Do you want to just say a little bit more about the epicentric thing of got copy because there's a sort of got milk attachment to that, which I really enjoyed researching. So I mentioned you've spent the last four decades making sure companies got copy. Why do you frame it in that way? Well, I guess, you know, part of it is just loving that old campaign. I don't know if it ran in the in the UK as well, but you know, they were having a problem with milk. Nobody was drinking milk anymore. You know, this is also a great example of copy thinking of the okay, what do we do? We have to tell people that it's got lots of vitamins. We have to tell people it's good for them and build bodies 12 ways or, you know, whatever it is. We have to tell them it's delicious. And instead somebody did some thinking and said, well, why do people, you know, drink

8:22milk? They drink milk because it goes with things, right? It goes, you know, it goes with the peanut butter sandwich and, you know, and the associations that it has. And so instead of highlighting how good it is to have milk in a way, they highlight it how bad it is not to have milk. And one of the best ones was somebody eating a peanut butter sandwich and it's all sticky and it's in their mouth and they need something. They need some milk because, you know, that that'll get it on sticky and that's great to drink with the peanut butter sandwich. And they don't got milk, right? And it's the kind of the horror of that, which is, you know, playful and funny, right? Because it's an exaggerated thing, but we all relate to it. And then got copied then uses the same simplicity imperative to make sure we need the right copy to persuade on assuming, right? What happens when you don't got copy? What happens when you don't have good copy? Right? Nothing happens, really. People don't know about you. They don't buy from you. Wonderful. So shall we get on the open road? It's my great delight and privilege and pleasure to curate you through the unique

9:24this is this structure and I'm really intrigued to know what you think about it and how you experience it, David. So any questions before we start? Yeah. No, I think we're good. Let's get right into it. So there's going to be a clearing or serious happy place of you, David L. Dodge's choice to get on to a moment on the open road of this. Then there's going to be a tree, a lovely juicy storytelling exercise called 54321. There's going to be some alchemy, some gold, a couple of random squirrels, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare, a golden batten and a cake. So it's absolutely all to play for. So you're taking a swig because it's not a memory test. That was milk, hopefully. Got milk? Was that milk in your cup? Yeah. No, this was tea. I need the caffeine to go through this. You needed the milk to go with it. We both know that. So let's do this then. So you're clearing, first of all, is your serious happy place? Where does David L. Dodge copywriter, copy coach, game changer go to get cut-of-free inspirational and able to think? Where is your clearing? You know, I think in terms of just where I love to go, it's any place with a vista, you

10:26know, any place with a view, whether that's in the ocean, and you can look out onto the horizon, whether it's a lake, whether it's a mountain, looking at mountains, being on top of a mountain, being on top of a high building, there's something very inspiring about seeing more of the totality. You know, it's like that Merlin thing where Merlin educated King Arthur in England when all the tribes were fighting with each other and said, you know, I want to take you something. I mean, it took him above England and he said, what do you see? And King Arthur said, there are no borders, there are no lines like on the back, right? Separating everyone. Said, that's right, you know, and it taught Arthur something about how to look at his country as being without borders and without division. And there's something about being high, seeing an open vista, I think, that really inspires and feeds me in a way that being, you know, inside in a room or being in a forest where

11:27you can't see, you know, does. So that's kind of what came to me for that one. And if I may congratulate you for the notion of a world-renowned copyrighter taking a world without borders as your vista to then have as your clearing, that was, that's my interpretation of what you just said and I loved it. Yeah, well, I think it, yes, it opens you up to different ways of thinking, you know, it's funny too, and I don't know where I like to do thinking or a clutter-free space. But you know, when I, and I don't know if that's a separate question, but when I heard that part of it, I thought, the clutter-free place, well, I do my best thinking is like on an airplane with my remarkable, you know, where I can just write and there are no distractions, you know, it's just that kind of, that kind of, what do they call that sensory deprivation almost? You can't be interrupted. And there's a traveling towards the new horizon you're traveling towards if you're doing that on an aircraft. Yes. And not to go down a rabbit hole, but there is something about motion, you know, whether

12:27you're walking and thinking, you know, or I suppose whether you're an airplane going 600 miles an hour, there is indeed something about a forward motion that kind of triggers your brain. Absolutely. And it plays beautifully into that Nietzsche quote of the best ideas happen outdoors for a start. Very resonant. And Kling, that was like a best idea to your own version of my bell there. I was hoping that was ignorable. I picked it up, and I think the audience did too. So that's great then. A world without borders is your clearing. I'm now going to arrive because of my theatre and acting background with a tree in your clearing. And just to explain, this is a bit waiting for Godot-esque, a bit deliberately beckety, and I'm going to shake your tree to see which storytelling apples fall out. A recent guest asked me, is your tree the Garden of Eden? And I went, not that I knew of, but actually it does play into all storytelling archetypes. So it's wherever you feel it might be and what it represents. But this is a bit like, how do you like these apples? And I shake your tree.

13:28And then shaking the apples is now the beautiful storytelling exercise, which is called 5-4-3-2-1, where David L. Deutsch, you've had five minutes to have thought about. Four things that have shaped you, three things that inspire you, two things that never felt to grab your attention. And when we get to that bit, I'll explain where the squirrels come in. And then the one is a quirky or unusual fact about you. We couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us. So it's not a memory test over to you to interpret the shaking of the canopy of your tree as you see fit. OK. So it's four things that have shaped me, right? I would say one is Eastern philosophy, just learning about different ways of thinking, or a Buddhist, more Zen, thinking differently about reality, thinking about the duality of things that contrasting things can exist together, thinking about the idea that the world is really not reality, but in a way, our perception of reality. And I think that kind of thinking is a very good counterbalance to Western philosophy,

14:30which is very like the world is real and there are things and there's knowledge we can know, which is great stuff, right? There's a lot of great stuff in there, but it needs that kind of counterbalance. And I think that's also helped me a lot because a lot of creativity is kind of thinking in different ways and thinking more that reality is malleable, thinking, being able to hold two things at once, duality. So I credit that with a lot of things, systems thinking, mind mapping, I'm inherently a very non-visual person, so it really helps me to draw things, when I started drawing things out, when I started mapping things out, when I started using systems thinking, terms of how things connect together and loops, this happens, this happens, this happens. I realize that really so much in the world, not really a cause and effect, but really part of a bigger system, right? If you analyze why something happens at a company, right? It's not, oh, these people aren't doing their jobs.

15:31Well, they're not doing their jobs because they're not properly trained and they're not properly motivated and all these systems don't interact in a way that inspires and motivates these people to do their jobs. So let's look at the whole system of that. And that was intriguing that you just said that inherently you're not visual. My presumption would have been, as a copyrighter, you see everything in pictures and you're able to see the connections in pictures, but you're talking that you prefer the systematic approach rather than the visual approach. Yes, I need to deliberately activate that part. Aha. You know, and I need to do that by drawing on a piece of paper on my remarkable or deliberately activating, you know, seeing something. There's that famous story of someone changing the new city logo by writing it on the back of, by drawing it quickly on the back of a napkin. And then, do you remember this story and then they spent almost years coming back to the same napkin and you just had this instinct to immediately do it and then they researched why that was right. But he was right from the get go because his instinct was so strong and this is someone

16:33hugely experienced who used all that experience to bring it to bear to give that moment of spontaneity. Yes. And I think, I mean, I'm leaping ahead a little probably, but that's a great, that's how I think about writing in a certain way is I think people sit down to write and they become labored and they go back to when they were in school and they start writing in that way. Rather than, well, what's your instinct? What would you say to someone in person about this product? Right? That's where the writing should come from. That's where the persuasion should come from. So I love that napkin story. Wonderful. And I'm loving what you're doing so far as well. This is fantastic. So we're still in the shape edge of the canopy of your tree. So take me however you'd like to go next. Okay. And then in terms of other things that have shaped me, you know, obviously working at Ogleby and having a sense of what that advertising isn't winning awards, advertising isn't being clever and doing commercials, you're really proud of how creative they are, right? It's about getting results.

17:34It's about selling things. It's about, you know, getting awareness and changing people's minds. And then I think the other thing that has shaped me over the years is I think about it as music. You know, something that I've always kind of done and has just always helped me in terms of having a discipline like that and also in terms of I think pattern recognition because music is patterns, right? It's patterns of notes. And so I have to play music if you don't see the pattern, if you don't see, oh, it's a scale going up. Oh, it's going down in thirds. You know, oh, look, it's repeating the same pattern. Oh, now it's the pattern and bird it, right? Bach just turned it upside down to do it. And it's the symphony of copyrighting as well. That's very wisdom. Yes. You know, the symphony of, you know, A, B, A, B, A, you know, what comes first, what comes next. And so it's helped me to look at writing in a way in the same way, like, what are the patterns? What is the system? What is the structure? A symphonic approach to writing. That's lovely. And did you study music to get your appreciation of the inner workings, set the system?

18:39I did. Actually, I was a music major in college and I was all set to go on to graduate school and be a music, you know, I was going to be a music history major because I wasn't a good enough performer to perform. But I mean, I'm imagining you want to piano at this point, but maybe not. What was the instrument you were playing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am kind of keyboard. And I just, I don't want to just keep going to school and learning. I want to go out in the real life. And so I kind of turned down a scholarship to go to grad school and instead did some teaching and then wound up at Ogovy somehow. And you've just reminded me that a writer is sometimes called a keyboard warrior. So that's sort of making complete sense. Wonderful. We might have done the four shapeages or is there one more? No, I think that's, yeah, I think we did four. Thank you very much. The system is working. It's working. Now that we're on to three things that inspire you, David.

19:40Three things that inspire I think nature inspires me. Being in nature, being outside, ideas inspire me when I see a new idea, when I see a great idea, it inspires me, it inspires first I go, I wish I had thought of that. But then I go, I want to come up with a great idea for this client or this ad or whatever. And traveling, being in cities, I grew up in New York City. So I kind of get with rural symptoms if I'm out of a big city for too long. So being there, the energy, you know, in the same way nature kind of calms me down and gives me a different kind of energy, then being in a city gives me a more electrical kind of recharge. And where are you speaking from today? On now, today I'm in North Carolina. Uh-huh. So when were you last in New York? Two questions. And when did you just discover that's a brilliant idea when we saw your last thought of that?

20:40Oh, gosh. I was in New York probably a couple of months ago. Me too, actually. We could have nearly over sat. Yeah. We would have to let each other know when we're, you know, in different parts of the world. And, you know, gosh, the last time I had a brilliant idea, I don't know, every idea that I have, I think is brilliant. And I love while I'm working on it, you know, I was also, that was a lovely answer. I meant when did you last experience? Oh, that's a lovely idea. Let me help with that copy or that. I, something you notice rather than wonderfully crediting your own brilliant ideas, which I don't doubt you have many. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. The last, you know, I don't know. I mean, constantly, you know, you see a TV commercial or you see, you know, a book or something. I don't know if I could specifically say, okay, I remember, you know, I'm very bad. I'm very bad at, that's why I like this structure. I'm very bad at, you know, what was the last or, you know, what's your, like if you say what's your favorite book, I will suddenly be able to not remember any book I ever read

21:44in my entire life. So I, I warn you of that right now. Thank you. Thank you. Don't go, don't go off script for God's sake, for God's sake is lovely. And next thing that inspires you, oh, the next thing that inspires me, I'm great writing inspires me. When I see a well-turned phrase or when I see someone that has said something in a particularly succinct way, you know, like when I see someone that has taken the banal or banal as we say on this side of the pond and, and, and, like Churchill, you know, you read words of Churchill like my god, like how does he do that? How does he elevate the English language like that? And just before we started talking of Churchill, I said the word tickety-boo and you asked me about it and then I told you that it was something that was a song, a song about optimism during World War II, which was, of course, the Churchillian era, just as a resonance for what we were talking about before. Yes. And so many great phrases, you know, come from there, you know, the, what is it, what is

22:45it? Stay calm and carry on or something like that? Keep calm and carry on. Keep calm and carry on, right? Yes. Which are bedecking mugs and t-shirts and tea towels across the world to this day. Right. So great words and great phrases do last the test of time. That's the other magical thing about really powerful copywriting. Yeah, that is true. That is true. Look at some of the old ads, you know, whether it's the left one I sat down at the piano or at 60 miles an hour, the loudest noise in this Rolls Royce comes from the electric clock. Probably a lot of our expressions come from all the ads. They do? Yes. I'm just enjoying, as everyone percolates and tries to remember their own refrains or favorite adverts. There was a very famous one in the UK, which is not particularly profound, but it's everyone remembers the advert of being a secret lemonade drinker. There's a man by the fridge saying, I'm a secret lemonade drinker. Ah, whites. Ah, whites. That's just it. And of course, it's totally random because our whites nowadays, long defunct, everyone remembers the man by the light of the refrigerator enjoying our whites lemonade.

23:46Oh, wow. There's a danger that no one knows what I'm talking about at all there, but that's... There is, yeah, there is that. Probably no one remembers where's the beef from. Where's the beef from? Where's the beef from, Wendy's? They, when they were trying to say, we, they were trying to say, we have a lot of meat in our hamburgers. They kind of put down the competition by this old woman was going into like a McDonald's or the competition. She looked at the hamburger and it was just this little, little round silver dollar of beef and she'd go, where's the beef? I'm not a game kind of a catchphrase. That's where I was. Sorry. I was going to say in a politician actually used that years later, he was in a debate with Ronald Reagan or something like that. And maybe, or maybe it was Ronald Reagan himself. And the, his opponent said something and he, you know, and the guy said, he said, you know, I don't understand what he's complaining about here. Where's the beef? Fantastic. And, you know, it was just that became memorable all over again and repopularized.

24:47And as you were riffing, it also reminded me, I grew up in Uganda between mine being two and a half and ten and there was a particular, I think it was an S.O. advert where there's a tiger in my tank and you've just reminded me of, oh, I just remember that for the first time, random lean a lot. Yes, I was here for a long time. I've, listen, I said no rabbit holes for my, it's an exercise. So, I'll have a hole. I'll do you have a bell? I'll do you. The bell has just gone off. That was a rabbit hole. Because this is still, no one should have dosed off because this is a good conversation. That could have been the three things that inspire you. Yes. Yes. And now... The system is working. I'm delighted for both of us. The symphony of our structure. Now onto the two things that never fail to grab your attention and rather deliciously borrowed from the film up. Have you seen the film up, David? Yes. I think I saw with the balloons where the balloons take the house. Yes. It's the most beautiful heart-wrenching montage of disappointment at the beginning about a life not quite lived at whilst trying to live it whilst life gets in the way. Anyway, the montage is beautiful, but within it there is a dog that goes, oh, squirrels. And so there are sort of random squirrels.

25:49So, it's your two monsters of distraction. What two things, what two squirrels metaphorically never fail to grab your attention irrespective of anything else that's going on in your life? I have to ask you this. So, is that with that expression squirrels, a squirrel went by, you know, for distractability? Is that where that comes from or that's where the movie got that from? I just... Do you know what? I don't know the answer. I suspect my presumption is that that's where the movie got that from. Yeah. Whenever you think, oh, squirrels, everyone can relate to that because there's something random to each idiosyncratic human being that stops them in their tracks, that may not stop anybody else in their tracks. Yes. And there's also somethingly wonderfully appropriate as a writer about that image, like of a squirrel going by. Squirrels by their nature kind of dart by, really quickly, and kind of grab your attention like that. Yes. In that little peripheral way. So, you know, reading between the lines, I'm glad you're enjoying the structure too, which is... I love that. And it's music to my ears covered in earphones.

26:50I need structure. I'm a very unstructured person by nature. So, I always like to be in structure, a nice, secure feeling. Lovely. So, let's... To your squirrels, sir. To my... Oh, and to my squirrel. See, I got distracted by squirrels while I was trying to talk about squirrels, which is very appropriate. So, that's probably one of the things that just, you know, distracts me, obviously, is just anything interesting and getting off on a tangent like that. But in thinking about that, you know, anything at the margins, I love that word margins, like the extremes, right? Anything that's the best, anything that's the worst, anything that even like, you know, the tallest building I want to explore it, you know, the... I want to read about, you know, even people at their best and people at their worst. That's probably why I'm so fascinated about World War II or the Civil War, because, you know, you can learn a lot about reading about people in ordinary life and how they go through their lives in nice, peaceful times.

27:50But you really learn a lot, reading about how people go through a Civil War or World War II. And, you know, the stories in there are just so amazing, because it is the extremes, the extremes of hardships, the extremes of challenge. I think as a writer, as a student of human nature, and just as a curious, if not, nosy person, extremes will always, you know, grab my attention away. And I love the expression on the margins, of course, because that's where the action is probably, because it's people in adversity overcoming challenges and obstacles. Yeah. And it's also... Yeah, where things are just interesting. Yes. Great squirrel. Great squirrel. That's one of my favorite squirrels. And, you know, maybe this is redundant to what came before, but I think what will always get my attention is something that's beautifully expressed or words that just go together, writing, that's incredibly heartfelt, beautiful, well-expressed, clever kind of falls

28:55into that, you know, that will, that will get my attention, right? Oh, someone just told a joke or something, you know, or this is funny. Yes. I'm fascinated by sometimes deconstructing a joke to work out while it's funny and what the, without analyzing it too deeply, but I love it when you get the spontaneity of language that surprises you in the form of a joke. Right. Right. And, you know, there's probably a connection between humor and the margins and extremes, because humor in a way is an extreme. It's pushing the boundaries. Yes. It's pushing the boundaries, but I think it's also pushing the boundaries in terms of like flipping something. Yes. Right. You know, the, your expectations and now it's the opposite of what you're expecting and it's fun. You laugh. And in common, I do a lot of comedy improvisation and that's called technically, that's called a reverse when you reverse the audience's expectation. I appreciate you probably knew that, but that was just labeling the sort of technique of subverting ones' expectations through a brilliant punchline or a reverse of what the audience expect is happening.

29:55Yeah. Yeah. One day, we'll have to talk about my very limited experience doing stand-up and my very limited experience doing improv, which I totally enjoyed and feel like, especially the improv, I feel like it really was great training, it was great for copyrighting. Yes. Because copyrighting in a way is, yes, and, right, it's always like, yes, and, you know, you get this, right? Oh, you feel this way, you know, yes, I empathize and understand. And here's why that means you should buy this product. That's music to me as well, that comedy improvisation also inspires a copyrighter. I mean, it's a wonderful underlying mindset, yes, and yes, and yes, and as you, as you are, it's a wonderful mindset. Aren't we always, though, improvising, right? We're improvising right now, and when we sit down to write, we're improvising, we're improvising. We may be putting it on the page, but we're improvising, you know, what we're saying. Absolutely. Wonderful squirrels, congratulations, and can we now have the one, which is a quirky, unusual

30:58fact about you, copyrighter, copy coach, and game changer, David Eldwitch, what is a quirky fact about you? Oh, God, I've got so many quirky facts. I can, I can juggle, you know, is, is a quirky fact. I can play the didgeridoo a little bit. Many taunts of a solo, I think it's back here somewhere, oh, here we go. Don't tempt me, don't tempt me. Yeah, so those are two things, I think, you know, I tend to like to be able, I'm not a good, I'm a good beginner, and so I like doing, you know, I like learning the didgeridoo a little bit. I like learning juggling a little bit. I can't do 10 balls at once, you know, while I eat an apple, but, you know, I can, I can do three pretty credibly. That's good enough for me. That is juggling, if you can do three. Yes. I mean, you need to stand in the corner on your own, if you can only manage two. That's my trick.

31:58It's just to be able to do things well enough to say that I do it. The rather than that was brilliant, you just get, that was, that was juggling, yeah, well done. So that's really good. Thank you. We and aren't we juggling right now? We're juggling so many things at all. And if I may, I think we're doing it majestically, it's lovely. So we have shaken your tree. Now we stay in your clearing, which is beyond margins as we sail or on towards a horizon with no boundaries. Now we're going to talk about alchemy and gold. When you're at purpose and in flow, what are you absolutely happiest doing in what you're here to reveal to the world? You know, I think as we talked about earlier, I'm really happiest solving problems, right? Do you have a problem with your site? You showed it to me. Hopefully I was able to solve a little bit of those problems and I still appreciate some help on that. And I'd love to talk to you about that afterwards. Okay. Okay. You've got it. Yeah. On air. I've officially got David, which is help, which is lovely. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know, I, the best way to get my help is to say this problem is unsolvable

33:04or, you know, I'm stuck on this because I, you know, and I just, I think it's just, I like the challenge of that and I like the thinking that you have to do to solve that. And I think writing it away is, is ultimately all about solving problems, whether it's the big problem of how do I position this product? How do I even talk about this? How do I get people's attention to the problem of, okay, well, I said this now, how do I connect this to the next thing? I want to say. And going, how do I make this interesting now? Yes. That's a problem. And I presumably, that's in the DNA of you're being an original ad man in the how do you add proper got copy to this particular campaign to sell this particular product. And again, congratulations, because you're known as the billion dollar copywriter. Yes. Yes. And it probably is in my DNA to some extent to, yes, it just, you know, want to do that. Like if I see something that's barely written, I have just, I, I want to go in and rewrite it. Or at least, or better yet, tell the person how to rewrite it and then they can rewrite

34:05it. So, what's the life in the margins? This is you going around with the red pen and sort of scrolling in the margins to correct it. I love that. And now I award you with a cake, hurrah. So we need to talk briefly about cake. Do you like cake, David L. Deutsch? What does the L stand for? I never did ask you, actually. I'll, Lee. Oh, not legend. Lee. Lee. Not, not legend. Right. Not EL. Although if someone, if someone says, okay, I need you to sign this, David L. Deutsch and I go, is that EL? So I make that same joke you did earlier on the EL, who's funny. Thank you very much. Here a week, as they say. So what cake would you like if I was to sort of send you one? What's your cake of choice? Well, I do have to tell you about cake that even though I love cake, it doesn't love me unless it's gluten-free and dairy-free and sugar-free. So got milk, got milk doesn't apply, it's got to be dairy-free. Yeah. I get my cake from someone that makes it for me, or either of a friend or a baker that

35:07will make me a cake to those specifications. In my, just talking about cake or sweet treats, in my legacy life reflections, Endeavour, I have struck upon the idea because it accesses stories that are precious to us. It's made me think of having, well, I offer people who want to talk about it, the choice of three suites that your nanoral granddad or your mum or your dad might have most enjoyed. And in the UK, there are very iconic boiled suites, one's called a word as original, another one is a Devon Toffee, and then another one is a Mint Humbug, tapping into Yieldy Sweetie Shoppy, terrain. So, if I may ask you just while I'm riffing on this, if I was to offer you a sort of Yieldy Sweetie Shoppy, iconic sweet of old, what would you most like if you don't want to cake? I don't tend to like the fancy Toffee, you know, like that. I tend to like, you know, a plain piece of chocolate or a plain piece of white chocolate or, you know, the cake with vanilla icing or something like that.

36:08The Milky Ball Cade, was that one of your campaigns? Was that an America as well, because it was an American kid, with the Milky Ball Cade is strong and tough. Do you remember that? No, we had that here. Well, the Milky Bar Kid, they had Snickers for a while where it was kind of like your mean when you're hungry, and they would give people Snickers bar and they wouldn't be to go back to being themselves. So, the Milky Bar Kid was strong and tough, the Milky Bar Kid was whatever the rest of that rhyme was. But anyway, sorry, I've gone down my own rabbit, so anyway, so I can't finish you with a bowl sweet of choice either, you want dark chocolate or Milky Bar or white chocolate. So, that's just to get me on to the last, suffused with storytelling metaphor about cakes. So, you now get to put a cherry on the cake, gluten-free, dairy-free, made for you rather fussily by some reason. I hate cherries on cakes, by the way. I don't know why people put cherries on things and put them in drinks and put them on cakes. You don't like that, are you? I don't like it, but I appreciate the metaphor. Thank you. I mean, cake is a great metaphor, too.

37:09It's like, you know, let them eat cake or you can't have your cake and eat it too. Like, people relate to cake, so. And another affirmation of the system working, thank you. Yeah. So, now you get to put a cherry on the cake with stuff like, what's the favorite inspirational quote, David, that's always giving you sucker and pulled you towards your future? You know, I don't know if it's a one that is always giving me sucker and pulled me toward my future, but there's a quote from Charlie Munger, who you may know, he worked with, he was kind of the brains behind Berkshire Hathaway with Warren Buffett, and he said something that I've always loved. It is remarkable how much long-term advantage can be had by trying to be constantly not stupid instead of being very intelligent. And I love that because I think a lot of what I teach about creativity, helping people find the obvious, right, or at least what is obvious in retrospect. And sometimes, for instance, that's the opposite of what everyone else is doing, because the

38:11intelligent thing is, you know, to do what everyone else is doing and try to do it better and improve upon it and be intelligent about it. And when in reality, it's just, well, why not just do something completely different? Why not, why not, you know, why not, instead of doing a regular soft drink, why not do something called red bull and make it the opposite of drinks, make it not taste good, make it, you know, really expensive, make it in a little bitty can. You know, no caffeine, no, we're going to fill it with caffeine, right? We're going to fill it with sugar, you know, and what's the show idea? In retrospect, that's very obvious, right? So it's like, don't be stupid, don't be what do what everyone else is doing. And I think sometimes we, and myself included, just try to outsmart ourselves. And I think that's especially true in writing, where people become very, well, let me remember all the things I learned about writing and the formulas and I need to begin with a startling fact and I need to, and they just forget the very obvious fact of that you're just trying

39:14to persuade someone and you're just trying to persuade them the same way you would persuade them sitting across the table from you. So don't be stupid, get away from that, do the obvious thing and just say what you would say to me if you were sitting across the table from me. And could we deliberately re-incorporate the quote? Because it was such a wonderful one that I think it, and it's multi-layered. So can we hear it again? It is remarkable how much long-term advantage you can have by trying to be consistently not stupid instead of very intelligent. Thank you. Lovely quote and beautifully unpacked and explained before you re-incorporated it. Lovely. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given, obviously, by somebody else, do you think? That's the best piece of life that I've ever been given, obviously. You know, it's advice that I keep needing to remind myself of, which is, you know, hard now means easy later. And it's something that I constantly forget and have to keep coming back to because one of the things about always being distracted and being a little ADD or a lot ADD is that,

40:16you know, that you put a great value on the now. And so I want to make the now easy and I want to do what I want now, forgetting that if I make the now a little more difficult and do something I might not want to do now, the future will be much, you know, brighter and easier. It plays into no pain, no gain as well, although that's a slightly different construct, but it's similar. Yes. A little more an extreme version of it. And frames it as pain because, you know, I think the cool thing is that a lot of times you find that what is hard or what seems like it's going to be painful turns out to be not hard and not painful. And made your life better for it, yes? Yeah. Which is kind of like brings us back to the first thing I talked about, which is the whole eastern thing of we create a, we create reality, right? We create the idea that it's going to be hard or it's going to be painful, which reminds me also of that beautiful quote from Hamlet, nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. Yes. Well said. Well said.

41:17Well, he knew his onions. He really did. I love the way you English have all these little like questions are just a little bit different from us. It's almost like there's this country and it's like it's a country and it's just like America except, yeah, and you think that it is, but then you go there and it's like everything is a little bit different. The name of stores are a little bit different. The gas stations have different kinds of names and then people say things a little bit differently. Because the gas stations are called petrol stations and no. And the petrol stations, right? And the car has a truck, the lorries and all that. Next question, with the gift of hindsight, you've spent the last four decades making come, sure, companies get copy. What's, with the gift of hindsight, what notes help or advice might you prefer to a younger version of yourself, David L. Deutsch? You know, I would say that the things that you think don't, the things that you think matter now, won't matter years from now.

42:19And some of the things that you think matter, that you think don't matter, will matter years from now. You know, whether that's taking care of your health or whether that's, you know, doing what you want to do or, you know, going out on a limb in some way, you know, I think that, you know, as you get older, you realize the finiteness of life. You know, it's very hard to realize that when you're 20. So I think it's that really. It's, you know, don't be so sure that what matters matters, don't be so sure that what you think doesn't matter, doesn't matter. I love the sort of double triple negative positive in that. That's great. Really. Yes. And also invest in Microsoft and Nvidia and, you know, all other country companies, please. We, we always, we had, or maybe some of you have, who knows, we're ramping up to talk about Shakespeare, finally, but just before we get there, this is something called past the golden button. Please. Another English expression, they don't like it out by Mr. Manring, which is a quote from

43:19a TV program, which you probably don't know called dance army. So that could be a stupid reference. But who would you most like to pass the golden button along to now you've experienced this from within in order to keep the golden thread of the storytelling going? I think you should have on, there's a designer and marketing strategist, Laurie Haller. We've worked together on projects. We work for some of the same clients. She comes from the design end of things. So she takes, you know, she is able to use the visual aspect brilliantly to get people to stay on the page, to read. And just has a very nice way of speaking about design, speaking about the customer journey, speaking about a lot of things that go well beyond, you know, copywriting. Laurie Haller, you said, is that right? Thank you so much for that wonderful gift of a golden hat. And now, just before we get onto the Shakespeare, which will come onto at the end,

44:21I'm going to deliberately segue the bit in now, which is, show us your QR code, please. So the first one is, if we want to join you on LinkedIn, this is the most obvious one to go down first of all. So that's that one there, our lovely assistant Courtney is now showing up a QR code. So this is a copyrighter, copy coach, game changer, scan the QR code. But if you want to say anything about where you are on LinkedIn, David, and that'll point the audience to it, I mean, what is my LinkedIn address? No, just, just what can we find out about you on LinkedIn? And you may well be watching us on LinkedIn in any case, but in which case you're there already. But if someone's just listening, but not able to queue our code, what can they discover about David L. Deutsche on LinkedIn? Well, there's a lot of posts about copywriting and about thinking and about creativity. A lot of posts that people seem to like about books to read, that copywriters should read or people that want to write persuasive sales copy should read that don't have to do ostensibly with copy. Love this. I think that's how you become a much better copywriter is learning about persuasion

45:25or learning about how to lawyers argue cases, right? One of my favorite books is by Jerry Spence. And it's about how we win cases in court. And in a way, that's what we do. We are arguing, we are trying to prove things beyond the shadow of a doubt. We are trying to convince the jury of our peers to buy something. And speaking of writing, that was a deliberate segue the next. Yeah. So talking about speaking of writing, just talk us through this QR code. This is the second to show us. You QR code, please. Speaking of writing is my website where you can get some free stuff about copywriting and about coming up with ideas. You can contact me there. You can find out about the products that I offer, which is one of them is about generating ideas. One of them is about copywriting, the list of copywriting secrets, idea powers, one about generating ideas. And both those things you can get free, both those training you can get free if you join my group coaching. And that's the way or you can get individual coaching.

46:28And yeah, so just perfect. And copywriting for me to Z is one of your publications. This is the a list copywriting secrets. And forget me if I'm repeating something you've just said, but that's where you can get a whole archive of your previous writings. Yeah. Well, English copywriting secrets is the training. The copywriting for me to Z is a free report you can get at that site, as is how to come up with ideas. I think is the other free report that's offered there. Lovely. Thank you. Indeed. Courtney for flashing up the QR code. And now back to Shakespeare. Forro from Shakespeare's all the world stage and all the men and women merely players to talk about the seven ages of man. When all is said and David L. Deutsch, how would you most like to be a Remembrance? You know, I think just I did some good. I helped some people. I helped some people with their lives with their businesses. And you know, elicited response in one way or another, whether that was for people buying things or for people getting interested in things or inspiring people to discover things

47:33for themselves. Read books they wouldn't have read. Think thoughts they wouldn't have thought, you know, otherwise, probably not as the billion dollar copywriter. But you know, that's a nice sort of it's a nice appellation. Yeah. Nice appellation to have. Thank you. I was fishing for the word appellation. I know. Yeah. That was perfect. I mean, wonderful. So well. And so I just sort of reach the edge of my personality and couldn't speak anymore. Thank you very much. And as this has been your moment in the sunshine in the good listening two shows, stories of distinction and genius, is there anything else else you'd like to say David L. Deutsch? No, as as a mentor of mine once said after an interview, I think when he was asked the same question, I think I've already said much more than I know. Lovely. Um, but I've always liked that. No, I would just say, you know, just, you know, stop thinking of, you know, being a writer, stop thinking of writing and just think about how you would talk to people, how you would persuade people, um, how you would, you know, face to face, what you would say about something.

48:36Um, just find your inner writer, don't write from ideas that you have. A lot of times people's writing is the echo of everything that they've heard before. And we've, we've somehow managed to go through this whole thing and not even mention AI, but AI compounds that, right? AI is an amalgamation of everything that has kind of gone before and it doesn't have that ability to sit in front of someone and talk to someone or envision what it would be like to sit in front of someone and talk to someone and see their reactions and, and, and, and hear their objections and just intuitively know, oh, this is going to create resistance or this is going to lower resistance. Find that in yourself and write from there. Lovely, final comment. And actually, really love the fact we haven't necessarily mentioned all things. AI, this is about being human, warm and connecting, which is the whole raison d'être of what the good listening to show it continues to be up to actually. Um, if I may, may just make a couple of announcements before we go.

49:37I've got a t-shirt which has a wonderful statement. What's your story on it? And this is very, very exciting because I'm just about next week, as I record today, to be exhibiting at an exhibition in England, Entrepreneurs Convention, part of the Entrepreneurs Circle. And I'm on an exhibition stand talking about a very exciting series strand to the good listening to show, which is called Legacy Life Reflections, which is to record your story or the story of somebody really precious to you for posterity. And very interestingly, in the backstory, the story behind the story, my own father, Colin Grimes, has become a very enigmatic mascot for Legacy Life Reflections. Five years ago, I recorded my dad as the first ever willing guinea pig for Legacy Life Reflections. I recorded him in the halcyon days of his eighties before he slipped into a crater of declining health, which I now know with the gift of hindsight. My dad, Colin Grimes, died a year ago, but now I still have the recording that I have of him, both in filmic form and as a podcast in the storytelling platform of the good

50:39listening to show.com. I can't tell you how precious it is. So yes, Legacy Life Reflections is out there to help you and those that are precious to you too, if you'd like to look it up. So that's Legacy Life Reflections.com. If you've enjoyed the show and you'd like a conversation about Guesting 2, as we broadcast on LinkedIn, across YouTube, Facebook, all usual social media channels, Chris Grimes is me, just get in touch. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn as well. And Courtney Maywell also be able to flash up that QR code too. So that's the final announcement from me. Ivan Chris Grimes, this has been David L. Deutsch, the legendary David L. Deutsch, the billion dollar copywriter, as you said, but that's not necessarily how you want to be remembered. And because we had your one for Lancer 2 legacy and how you'd like to be remembered. So now I've ruffled on for a bit, anything else you'd like to say, fine, I'd like you to close the show. Yeah, no, I think this has been great. I wanted to, you know, when you were talking about the legacy thing, which I think is such an interesting thing to help people leave a legacy for other people.

51:43But I think also the interesting thing about that is maybe how it helps the people that do it. Because to reflect on one's own life and to realize what I have, what one has accomplished, what one has learned is such a valuable thing. So I would think that would be a great thing to do, even if, even if there wasn't something to pass on, just the exercise as it were of doing that, just the experience of doing that must be a wonderful thing. That's very generous feedback, hence what's your story, meaning what's your story, but also it could be yours, your own personal story, because there's meant to be a catharsis in intention. And, you know, I've been told that what's been curated here, this is just what other people have said. It's a no-asis of kindness, and it's like having a day's spa for your brain. So it does give people the opportunity to go to places they weren't expecting with the structure that the good listening to show is all about. Thank you, David. It's been an absolute delight and a privilege, and I sincerely hope we can meet in person someday. It will be very exciting to overlap when we can be in the same city together.

52:45Oh, my pleasure, and I would love to do that. And I'd love to be in touch to find out what other nudges of help, advice, and wisdom you might offer towards legacy life reflections, because it's a very exciting new cut and thrust that I'm on the lip of making this sort of explode into something much bigger, which is really exciting. Yeah, no, I look forward to that. And also a big mention, of course, to Kazi Quentin, who is one of your copywriting disciples who's been very helpful in not least introducing us, but also thank you, Kazi, for everything that you did in terms of, you know, giving me some preparation to make sure that I did David some service in how I've described what you're up to, David. So, thank you very much indeed. I'm interest Grimes. That's been David Eldoich. Thank you very much indeed. Good night. You've been listening to the good listening to show with me, Chris Grimes. If you'd like to be in the show too, or indeed give to an episode to capture the story of someone else with me as your host, then you can find out how care of the series strands of the good listening to show.com website. If you'd like to connect with me on LinkedIn, please do so.

53:46And if you'd like to have some coaching with me, care of my personal impact game changer program, then you can contact me and also about the show at Chris at secondcurve.uk. On X and Instagram, it's at that Chris Grimes. Tune in next week for more stories from the Tearing, and don't forget to subscribe and review.