The Dominic Carter Show

0:00Anyone can sell electronics. At electronics, Expo, they do more than sell products. They design, install and support complete technology solutions. From home theaters and whole home audio to lighting, shades, automation, networking, security cameras, and premium entertainment systems. For over 22 years, they've helped thousands of homeowners experience technology at its very best. See the difference for yourself. Visit their Wayne O'Paramestores in New Jersey. shop now at electrotics Expo.com. And America, our phone lines are open right now. 800 848 9222. The pain and horror of the 911 attacks 25 years later. Well, what from what we can see right here as we were coming up the Hudson River, we can see thick black smoke indicating the fire is still going on right now. The road trade center. For as far as the eye can see and you can tell right here at the top of this tower there's

1:04a huge gaping hole, flame still inside thick black smoke. Still coming out. We have not been able to see what if any kind of an aircraft is inside the building. This is the best vantage point right here and as you can see, just a huge gaping hole throughout the entire side of this tower right now. And 25 years later, 25 years later, we still remember all the firefighters and all the people, the 3000 people that died and the firefighters as they arrived, 25 years ago hearing the bodies, the thumps as people were forced to jump out of the window. When we heard the crash from sound, it was something that we never heard before.

2:18Very, very hard to listen to 25 years later. Joining us live right now is retired NYPD detective Thomas Holmigan. He is the director of a organization that is doing God's work. It's called police organization providing peer assistance. Mr. Holmigan, are you with me? Yes, sir Dominic, I am with you. Thank you for having me on. Of course, man, it goes without saying for what you're doing. I want to break this conversation up into two parts. Nine eleven, but also police suicides, NYPD suicides.

3:18It's a story I've covered for years and it seems like the numbers are rising again. On the suicides, before I get to 9-11, is that accurate that they were again in the headlines and that officers are again taking their lives and alarming numbers? Yes, we just had two or three in two months. We had one in July and two recently in August. Yes. It's very hard to hear. Okay, so 9-11 and your organization, you are the director of police organization providing peer assistance. When I say 9-11, tell me how your organization is involved and exactly what you do 9-11 related. Well, during 9-11, I was actually a detective and a detective squad, so I wasn't with this organization at that time. However, I can tell you, my predecessor put together a task force of police officers, trained,

4:19pop appears, and clinicians. And very quickly, they obtained a couple of offices down by the Federal Reserve and what they basically would do is talk to cops coming off the pile. They would debrief them. They'd be a clinician in the room and pop appears that are well trained. And they talk about what the days events were that day, whether they found the body, whether they found body parts, the sights, the smells, just to get them talking about it. Because if they would have bottled it up, it would have been detrimental in the long term. So to be able to talk about it the same day they were there or the same weeks they were there really benefited them in the longer. Of course. And I mean, you know, 25 years later, and I want to zero in on your organization. And if you have a question for a retired detective, Thomas Homegan, the number to reach him, reach us live right now is 800-848-9222.

5:20And coming up at the bottom of the hour, we'll talk to his colleague, Mota San Martin, who was a psychologist for the organization who began volunteering shortly after 9-11. Okay. So you were started for police suicides or 9-11 related? Well, the organization was started in 1996 because in 1993 and 94 and 95, we had 28 members of the New York City Police Department take their own lives. In three years, it was a big deal. It was on the front page of every newspaper. It was on the six o'clock news like wire New York City cops killing themselves in record numbers. So it was actually a PBA member, trustee, who came up with the idea, why don't we have something separate from the NYPD where cops can reach out and get help without the department knowing because back then they were stigmatized. If you reached out for help, for mental health or anything like that.

6:23You know, you were stigmatized. I'm happy to say the NYPD today is a lot different. You know, we're just another branch. They've come a long way in the way they handle mental health, alcohol and substance abuse issue. We're just another avenue, but we're separate from the NYPD, although we only work with NYPD officers. We are separate. And confidence. And you know, folks don't understand. You know, and I know I'm weaving in and out of suicides and 11 police suicides, but folks just don't understand the public. They say, well, why don't officers get help? And to your point and things have changed. We have to give the NYPD credit. They were stigmatized. What that meant was if you went and said you needed help, please correct me if I'm wrong. It often meant that you may have lost your gun. You were placed on modified duty. And that meant that for these officers that needed over times in order to make end meet ends meet, the overtime was drained up.

7:25It became a nightmare if you came forward and admitted you needed help. So how have things changed now? I guess I'm talking on the suicide front where when officers need help, they can get it without being without having that label on them as being stigmatized. Yeah. Like I said, back then they took away your gun. They put you in the precinct to answer the phone and everyone knew your business because you know, you know, they knew you didn't have a gun, right? Right. Right. Nowadays we do a lot of outreach for suicide awareness. We even teach a class here at Papa about suicide. A full day class that officers can take along with their families and friends. We welcome everyone and basically we teach them the signs and symptoms of people who might be suicidal and what to do about it if they are suicidal. More importantly, okay, now they say that suicidal, what do we do now? So that's what we teach them here. The NYPD averages about four suicides per year, unfortunately, and we want to get that

8:29number down to zero. And how do we do that? We do a lot of outreach. We go to different precincts. We address promotional ranking members of the department, meaning sergeants, newly promoted sergeants, tenants, captains, things like that. And we talked about it. We get it out in the open. Nowadays, a lot of people are seeing clinicians. You don't have to hide in the closet anymore if you're seeing someone. It's a very brave thing to admit that you do have an issue and you do want to talk to someone. You try to enforce and that's why we feel the number of suicides has gone down because that stigma was removed. It's okay to ask for help. You know, make sure you're a brave person. And so you are the director of this program and again, it's called Papa, which is the police organization providing peer assistance. So 9-11 related, what are some of the stories that you have heard?

9:32I know it's second hand, but what are some of the stories that you have heard that police officers that were down at ground zero at that pile? Some of the horror stories that they came off, I mean, telling colleagues of what they had just witnessed. I mean, the smell alone had to be horrendous. Yes, there's no smell like it. I will never forget it myself and I will never forget the struggles I had. I still tear up every time I go down. I was not able to go down there until two years ago. Really, it's been that long. I just couldn't do it. However, for the guys coming off the pile and the girls coming off the pile, you know, there was a lot of tears in those debriefing rooms. A lot of them broke down. A lot of them saw clinicians privately because they did not want to break down in front of their fellow officers. So business really went up for Papa. There was a lot of referrals to clinicians. There were a lot of side conversations during the debriefings when they were over and

10:33officers might stay behind and say, hey, I really need to talk to someone about this. I think by doing those debriefings that Papa literally saved lives because imagine if they came off the pile and had nowhere to turn to talk about what they've just seen. They just filed it up and went home, came back the next day and didn't saw the same things. You need an outlet. You need to deflate. You need to empty your glass. No doubt about it. And I didn't see the things that you officers saw, but on my side, and I've told this story in television at the time. We were in the live truck and I had not won but two producers that almost went into full nervous breakdowns in terms of 9-11 as we were trying to cover it live and they had to get grief counselors down there immediately. Not only find a way to get us food, but to get us grief counselors, hotel rooms, it was mandatory that if we were covering the story that we had to sit down and talk to the counselors.

11:38I found myself covering the story but also trying to consult some of my colleagues that I was working with that just couldn't handle what we were reporting on. 25 years later, what those do your mind? Well, it's funny, you had grief counselors, we were doing debriefings, okay, that's great. But when they get in that room, how do you get them to talk? Cops do not like to talk about what they've seen in their career. So now you're at 9-11, you bring them all into a room, eight, ten of them at a time, you have a clinician in there and two peer officers. You have to make them so comfortable that they can talk and so safe and so secure that it's okay to talk. And that's why our peers did such an amazing job along with the clinicians to get them to open up. That's the key. You can bring them into a room and they could just be closed-minded and give you yes or no answers. But to actually crack their shell is very difficult.

12:38And one of the best things that we do and it makes me come to work every day, makes me feel good is we do debriefings here in the office. And when a cop is involved in a heavy incident, maybe a shooting a gruesome crime scene, maybe they would shout out, maybe they shot somebody, we'll bring them into a room with two peers and we'll just talk about it. There's questions that we have that were designed by clinicians and we just get them to talk. And once one of them starts to talk about maybe nightmares they were having, whatever it may be, they all start to talk. From when they come in to when they leave the office, you can see after they're done talking and being debriefed, it's like a rock is lifted off their shoulder. You can physically see the change. And the most important thing is to make them feel comfortable, secure that whatever they tell us is not going to come back and haunt them or bite them in the butt to get them, you know, disciplined or something like that.

13:38And it's probably one of the best things that Papa does on top of our 24 hour help lines. And Dominic, this day and age, we have a lot of retirees suffering out there from 9-11. We had four suicides this year alone of retirees that killed themselves. And that's that we know of because unfortunately, New York City PD does not track retiree suicides. They know that the retiree might have passed away, but they do not know how they passed away. So we find out through, you know, social media, friends of friends, things like that. Retires, the helpline, the coal line, we doubled from last year. We had 105 calls into the helpline in 2024. Last year we finished with 205. And this year we're on pace to break the 205 mark on the retirees. The retiree helpline. What I want you to do, we're chatting with live with Thomas Homegan, a retired detective.

14:43He's the director of an amazing group that's doing God's work, police organization providing peer assistance for assistance. This as there are a number of suicides this year, this as we are days away from 9-11, we're going to take a break and we're going to come right back, continuing our conversation and bring in some of your telephone calls. And we are chatting live right now with retired NYPD, detective Thomas Homegan, who is the program director for a wonderful organization titled police organization providing peer assistance. So so little time left here, sir, before I get to your colleague, a murder, San Martin, she's a psychologist who began volunteering with the organization shortly after 9-11. But there's much controversy over who should be at the event this year. What should take on all of this? That's a tough question to answer. Obviously anyone who is down there should be welcome to come.

15:46Friends, family, victims of course will be down there. As far as the powers that be, the executive government people, really not my decision, I do have my own thoughts, but it's hard to say. Anyone that was involved, obviously should go down there if they want to and should be welcome to reflect. There'll be a lot of people staying away because they can't go down. So it is what it is. It is what it is. Dominic, I just want to mention that we are a 501C3 organization. We are a nonprofit. Yeah, we are a nonprofit. We operate on a small budget. If anyone would like to contribute, please go to our website, which is popanewyork.org. It's spelled out, p-o-p-p-a, spelloutnewyork.org. We are always welcome to receive donations because we do operate on a small budget.

16:50So, thank you. Police officers, and I want to have you repeat that before we're done in another minute or two. Police officers face very tough situations. You don't just go home and forget about this stuff. Recent example, the shooting just the other day, the mentally ill woman. These are tough situations, correct? For anyone. Extremely tough. Extremely. And it weighs heavy on those officers' minds. No question. How could it not? It's really horrific. Again, one more time. I say 9-11 and you say what? 25 years later. I say the biggest catastrophe in the country are in our own soil. I say, you know, people are still suffering. Not just retired, NYPD cops firemen, but the general public who was down there, the law subfamily, the law subfamily. So much suffering is still going on here. Let the step in.

17:50Thank you for joining us. And 25 years later, we are looking back at the pain and the horror of the 9-11 attacks and who could ever forget what happened. Well, what from we can see right here as we were coming up the Hudson River, we can see thick, black smoke indicating the fire is still going on right now in the World Trade Center. As far as the eye can see and you can tell right here at the top of this tower there's a huge gaping hole, flame still inside thick, black smoke still coming out. We have not been able to see what, if any kind of an aircraft is inside the building. This is the best vantage point right here and as you can see, just a huge gaping hole throughout the entire side of this tower right now. It's sound bite now, number 42, crowds gathering. We all know what happened again 25 years ago.

19:13And so now we're focusing on an organization that is helping, we're focusing on law enforcement right now. Of course, there's the fire department aspect. They lost all those firefighters, but right now we're focusing on the NYPD and an organization that's called police organization providing peer assistance. We just spoke with the director live, retired detective Tom Hovegan. And now we're joined by me, Ter San Martin. She is a psychologist for the organization who began volunteering shortly after 9-11. Thank you so much for joining us live. Well, thank you so much for having us and being so much attention to this, really appreciate it. Absolutely. So tell me what is your area of specialty in terms of dealing with law enforcement officers,

20:19suicides as well as 9-11? It's kind of a mixed bag because when I was doing my clinical training many years ago, I was working in the VA hospital system. So around the time when we were dealing with Vietnam veterans and understanding the impact of PTSD. So that kind of was a springboard for this particular interest for me and a preparation for when the call came and me and also the team that I was involved with, basically with clinicians out of a hospital in Staten Island. That's how we got called in and that's how I became involved with pop-up. Okay. And so are you still doing 9-11 related work? Oh, yes. Well, I'm still active with pop, of course. But 9-11 is not over. You know, it's obviously not over. There's still lots of families out there that still don't have any finality to this experience into this process.

21:21And so I work both sides of it. I mean, I work with the victim survivors and their families, but also working with cops and firefighters because the process is just not never ending. You can't, you know, there's no conclusion to this. You know, it's, if you were there, if you're doing this kind of work, this is something that stays with you and certainly has shaped the shapes one. And so when you say the process as a psychologist, help me and the general public understand exactly what you're talking about. What I'm talking about, and we were kind of lucky. I hope it doesn't sound too strange, but, you know, as horrible as 9-11 was and continues to be in terms of the after effects, the ripple effects of this, you know, it gave us an opportunity, provided an opportunity for us to get a foot in the door in terms of being able to talk about it. And that's what I'm talking about the process.

22:23How people were affected, how people coped with it then, continue to cope with it now. And Tom mentioned the retirees and the retirees suicide rates. You know, there are cops that were very actively involved in all aspects of 9-11 at that time, and ultimately end up retiring at some point. And if they did not get any kind of assistance or support, when a cop leaves the cop job, they take that stuff with them. When they're on the job, there's more structure, there's more sort of support. Once you retire, it becomes much more complicated. Because you're kind of out there on your own. You don't have the definition of being a cop so much. You don't have the support that comes from reporting to a precinct and reporting to a command. You're kind of out there on your own. So this is the great thing about Papa is that it's from start to finish their support there for the police officer. So I asked Director Hovegan about the organization that you're talking about, police organization

23:28providing peer assistance. I'm going to ask you the same question as a psychologist. When I mention the organization, what does that mean to you? What that means to me is saving lives. Being able to give back to the cops that put their life on their line, not only the life and the career of it, but also their well-being in responding to day after day to these very difficult calls and difficult incidents. Papa to me is a future and a hope for the cops who have to do this very difficult job. It's the same. So you're telling me and it breaks my heart, it really does. You're telling me 25 years later, you're still dealing with officers as it relates to 9-11 and some that have never dealt with it before, but now they're in retirement and they have more time to focus. They're dealing that they're having flash points and flashbacks now.

24:32Is that what you're telling me? That is correct. Even if it doesn't get to the level of post-traumatic stress disorder, there's still that traumatic response that you have to that event. And while you're on the job, what you need to do, you know, you're kind of in operations mode, once you retire and you leave, there's less of that, unless you come and call us, unless you're familiar with Papa. You know that there's help for you there, but yes, absolutely. This is not something that gets resolved. You go somewhere, you talk about it for a little while and it's gone. Even when you learn to manage your response to it and how it's affecting you, this is a lifelong process. You know, if you want to have any kind of quality of life for yourself, if you want to be able to feel good about the work that you did and that day, you need to be able to have some kind of way of integrating that in the rest of your experiences. So it doesn't become the thing that impacts the negatively impacts the quality of your

25:37life and your wellbeing. How do the officers from your perspective, so they've finished their career and maybe 9-11 bothered them while they were on the job in terms of their personal life, maybe it didn't. And now they're retired. What are some of the signs that you see as a professional? Do they cry out for help or is it destructive behavior? What happens? It doesn't have to go to the point of being completely destructive. You know, people that go through a change, the behavior is different. There are the stuff that they use to enjoy doing, now that they aren't enjoying doing anymore. They tend to withdraw. Unfortunately, sometimes there's that self-manication aspect of it too with alcohol or other substances. That can be a real warning sign, especially if it's a change in how you were before. That's what we look for. It's a kind of change in how the person is presenting, how they're interacting with their families, their loved ones, their friends, their network.

26:39You want to see if there's any kind of a change in how these things are going on in their life. Because that's the first indicator that maybe not that they're breaking down, not that they're crazy, nothing like that. It's really just an indicator that maybe we need to pay a little more attention, focusing on the more on taking care of yourself. Understand that there's help out there. People you can talk to who understand, who speak the same language that you do in terms of the work that you do and what you've been through. Do you deal with officers that have been in traumatic situations? I'm just throwing this out as an example. The fatal shooting after the stabbing in Times Square just this week. Do you deal with situations like that as it relates to officers? Yeah. That's part of the work that I volunteer work that I do with Papa. We bring the cops in who have those kinds of experiences, whoever's on the scene, whoever had to respond. They bring them into the Papa office and we do what's called a critical incident stress to briefing, which is really, it's not an operational debriefing.

27:42I know there's a lot of different definitions of debriefing, but this is really a way of having a discussion about what they went through, what they went through together, how they're being impacted by that experience, and what we can do to help them move forward, to put that into some kind of perspective, to be able to manage that. Because a lot of times there's a disconnect between how you're feeling, how you're thinking, a lot of times they don't understand that what they're experiencing is actually related to the event that they get exposed to. Now we are chatting live with Mirta San Martin, who is a psychologist. She began volunteering with the organization that is police organization providing peer assistance. So I only have a few minutes left here before I let you go and then I'm going to turn it over to the public on the next side, on the next side, after the commercial break. And you, here's the question that I have, and you might not be able to answer this as a professional.

28:43Why does the public think that these incidents are Hollywood, that these cops will shoot someone and it's a perfectly legit shooting, and that they just go home and honey, what's for dinner and everything's fine. Why does the public think this is Hollywood? When these officers, when they're involved in a shooting, something like a 9-11, it's something that stays with them for the rest of their lives. Why does the public see it differently? You know, and what you're saying is absolutely true. You can't shoot somebody without being affected by that experience. Even if you know it's part of the job, even if you know it's a legitimate response, what you did was correct and justified, you still were involved in the shooting of a human being. So, but Hollywood, I mean, we grew up with the shows, with the cowboys in Indian and the shooting, and it was like, the that glamorizing of that kind of experience is very misleading.

29:46Right, misleading. And you know, in the public just thinks, well, you know, well, why didn't you shoot the gun out of her hand and why why didn't you just tackle her and take the knives away from her? And all of this nonsense. So are you also dealing with the police suicides? We have two issues here. We have the 9-11, but we also have the suicides that are back up again. Do you deal with that as well as it relates to police? Yes, I do. More in the sense of providing the opportunity in these groups to really talk about this, but the thing about Papa is they have a phenomenal program for working with the cops who are suicidal, who come in through their program. They're all kinds of services they provide within the organization for cops who have identified themselves as being at risk. And that's great. I want to try and get in a call with you before we're done. Let's go to Dan, line four, Long Island, Dan. It has to be short and brief. Go right ahead. I just want to thank you for what you're doing.

30:48It's a great thing. Over time, firemen. I got a lot of that. I got some friends that took themselves out. It's really difficult to go through. I just want to say thanks. Well, thank you, too, for bringing this up. And also thank you for the work that you do. OK, let's go to Mary Beth, the Long Island, line five. Mary Beth, go right ahead. Mary Beth, are you there? OK, Mary Beth is not there. Let's go to Mark and Manhattan. Mark, it's got to be quick. Go right ahead. Yes, Dominic. Yes, Dominic. I was a civilian volunteer at the Food Preparation website on John Street. Oh, and I was there from about September 14 till they closed it near around Christmas. And I would ask the workmen that came off the pile. They were covered in white dust and they had their helmets on. What exactly do you need? And there were two things that were strange,

31:50but it's a human interest story. They asked for beach-type flip flops and also the south simple. OK, OK, shampoo. OK. OK, so Mark, I got to step in because I got to toss to a break. So, me or are those things that you heard dealing with law enforcement? Why is it really so 9-11? Absolutely. Sometimes what people need is just some basic, some of the basics, that compassion, that somebody makes sure that they get something to eat or they get something to drink, or that they're being taken care on a, the thing about that kind of crisis and disaster response, that kind of situation, is that we forget that we just need sometimes just the basics to know that there is a compassionate presence there that can help us through that. And handing somebody a tissue or handing somebody some food to eat after they've been on that pile for 15, 16 hours. Let me tell you, that's very significant.

32:50And you're significant help. And so, I'm out of time, but you've been doing this now for what, 20 plus years? Oh, no. What, with Papa? Yes. And mental health, almost 50 years. Almost 50 years. And how can the public contact the organization, Papa? 1-800 cops, cop. OK, wonderful. Thank you for, and bless you for what you're doing to help our first responders. It is noble, and I thank you deeply for what you're doing on the front line. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us, and thank you for bringing attention to the amazing work that Papa does. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you. Time for a break. When we come back, your telephone calls. It's too late for us. And the tunnel to towers, foundation, final thoughts of the day. I'm punting.

33:50But let me say this, folks, that we have more time with you. The volume of calls, there's no way I can get to all of these calls, but we're going to try here. Let's begin with Judith, line one, Brooklyn. What's on your mind, Judith? Hi, Dominic. Listen, imagine if you will, that you are, you Dominic, or a young student now, going to 9-11 Museum on a free school trip, because that's what they're doing to students to learn how to 9-11. And I'm the same student with you, where young, we're going there. Guess what I would ask? I would ask my teacher. Why did not? Why? Why did 19 Muslims senselessly attack Innocence Vivillian at the Twin Towers? Why? And I wonder what the teacher would answer us. I mean, is it any question? Is it any one answer question? Why? It's a great question. You already noted it. It's not asked because of political correctness, but it's a great question. I'll give you the final word, Judith, before I move on. Thank you, but once upon a time, you and I, which were children, and if we go see that, I think that would be so traumatic.

34:51Why would they do that? Why? I mean, I could cry just thinking about it, you know? And I feel you're paying. I feel you're paying, Judith. Thank you for the call. Let's go to Mike and Brooklyn, also, and Brooklyn, line four. Mike, what's on your mind? Yeah, Dominic K. doing today. When an officer, I'd be a family member of police officer. When they're involved with a shootout, shooting, whatever, or that affects the family, not just the officer. Indeed. It comes home. Trust me. Why do you say trust me? Because it still bothers me. My father was highly decorated officer. He died in 9-11, but not at the trade center. He was a shoot. He was bomb squad. He was a developed team by ambulance group in the PD.

35:54And bomb squad, when he was in, there was like hands on. There was no robots. He was in the big shootout in the other side of Brooklyn. When the third bags robbed the sporting store, they were outgunned to police and in the street. His partner had a headball rough. Well, if it's a girl, a Mario, a comal, a Latin man, a prison. It still hits home. Why? Why, Mike? Tell me why you're emotional right now. 9-11 is coming. 9-11, my cousin would never found him. The fireman, he's a bush out, a troop leader, a coach, to the little league, before he even had children. He had his family, and he disappeared to win the house.

36:57And all he's years later is still bothering you. You damn right, it does. And the other thing, you never say his name right. His name is, excuse me, his name is Lally Dealing. They never pronounce it right. He's a fireman. They never pronounce it right. So you're going from anger to defiance in your voice. I can hear it. Why? Because I'm pited with that big getting over on us, because all these moronic politicians, like the mutt that we have as a mayor. And I call my mutt because it stands for municipal underground two-faced terrorists. And I hear you. And I hear you. And I thank you for the call. And I'm sorry for your experience. Folks, America's heroes need your help now. Do good in their honor by donating $11 a month to Tonto Rutawers.

37:59And you can amplify your impact with a car or land donation. Go to t2t.org. T the number 2t.org.