The Dojo Bay with Max Tannahill | FREEDOM TECH FRIDAY 55

0:00Hello and welcome back to Freedom Tech Friday, a live and interactive show taking place every Friday at 9am Eastern and 2pm UK time across the Ungoverner Ball network. Each week we dig into the latest in Freedom Tech, which includes Bitcoin, Monero, encrypted messages, privacy tools and everything in between. Essentially if there's a news item tool or topic that can help you take back some control in today's digital panopticon, then we want to talk about it. This show and the topics we cover are powered by Freedom Tech, a daily news desk that uses AI to monitor hundreds of sources so we can continue to bring the signal every single week. My name is Q&A and I'm head of customer experience at Foundation and as always I am joined by my good friend Max, the headhunch of the Ungoverner Ball network and said who is CEO at K-Quality. This show is live and interactive so please do help steer the conversation by commenting live, asking questions, boosting the show

1:02or just sharing it with your friends. Top support from the last show with Carl Donne of Obscura comes from 8Mithrande, who sent in 0.00997XMR and said, I see that on the Ungoverner Ball website you can boost the show directly from the website. Is that an LN Exclusive feature or can XMR enjoy us get in on the boosting? Well, 8Mithrande, thank you for your support and it's funny you should mention that because we've been doing some troubleshooting this morning. The short answer is you can do both. If you go to Ungoverner Ball.net where it's slash B4V you can boost in anything you want. If you go to the episode pages that's kind of the lightning powered one where obviously you can't do any XMR stuff for now because it's all podcasting 2.0 stuff but that is currently broken as is the way with lightning and podcasting 2.0 so bear with us. Thank you for your support and nonetheless, without further ado before I bring up our esteemed guests Max, Crayonita Max and Seth, how you doing? I am doing. I was telling you a little bit for your live. A little underweather so I'll take

2:06it back seat a little bit this week but I'll listen in, learn from the great Max Tannenhill exactly to dive in today. Yeah, I'm going to yell at him if he doesn't set a profile picture because I can't, my mosey. Can you handle it? Can you do it live? Yeah, you see. Crayonita Max over here is very happy actually. I thought I was going to have to deal with a dreary Canadian this morning and instead I get a Brit so very happy. I feel like very out of Brit right now. You should do it, right? Yeah, you know, that's how the Revolutionary War was as well. Reversed Revolution. Yeah. They're coming back for retaliation. Plastic hood, a revelationary war and not a war of independence. I can tell now that that was half one. Sorry, John. No, Crayonita Max, what mic are you speaking into? Is it your computer,

3:18a microphone or a headset? If I'm honest, I actually don't know. So I've got my thing plugged in. If you click on the bottom left, there'll be like a little microphone thing and there's an arrow to the right of it and it will tell you what you're speaking through. Just because it's not as clear as you usually are. It says, I'm going to. Right, one second, I'm going to unplug and plug. Oh no, what have I done? Okay, speak again. No, you sound good. You sound fine. Yeah, it's good. Okay, all right. I'll speak loudly and clearly anyway, so hopefully you can pick me up. Thank you, mate. Thank you. Nice. Oh, well, we've kind of jumped the gun a little bit, but today we are welcoming Max Tannel back on the show to this time talk about Dojo Bay and a question that goes

4:20kind of beyond Bitcoin, while it's really and how much control do you really have if the tool that you depend on stops working when somebody else is server disappears? That's what Dojo Bay is all about. Running your own infrastructure is obviously the answer and the one that we would push most people to, but not everybody has the hardware, the knowledge or the time to do that straight away. And so the Dojo Bay helps bridge that gap by connecting wallet users with people running public Dojo nodes. We're going to dive into it all about it, how it works, where the trust sits, and how the director itself can be run by anyone. Mr Tannel, welcome back to the show, mate, how are you? Very good. Yeah, thanks for having me back. Nice to kind of hear from all of you. And yeah, we had a good chance to kind of speak about this. And also, I think honestly, speak very much about the trade-offs of all of this, like everything here that we hit, with all the tools that we use either. Nothing's perfect, nothing's ever going to be easy on this,

5:23but I think, you know, I'm looking forward to getting some kind of challenging questions about all of this as well. And I think that's exactly what this show should be about. Definitely. Yeah, listeners of the show will know that Max doesn't shy away from anything pretty much. So get your questions ready in the live chat. Before we kind of dive into the technicals, and we just go straight into Dojo, but I want to kind of take a step back and set the scene for those that maybe less aware of kind of how we got to today, starting with obviously the the main samurai Dojo CES, the predominant backend for samurai wallet users that didn't run their own Dojo. Let's start from there, because I think I feel like it's a good jump-and-off point chronologically, and then we can kind of move forward to earlier iterations of Dojo Bay before we get onto what you're heading up to today. Yeah, sure, thanks. I think there's a couple of things

6:25just to start with. So like number one, I'm sure most people listening will kind of know, but the Dojo or samurai Dojo is as known, and you'll find it now in a website called The Dojo open source project is maintained by Pavel, I think Sevcich, is the right pronunciation there, but he basically maintains the backend node for the samurai wallet that was incredibly popular a couple of years ago amongst a kind of, I'd say, a privacy niche of Bitcoiners, and is also was also used as a backend for the Sentinel wallet, and then since obviously the samurai guys got taken down, there's been the Asha Garu wallet, which is a fork of samurai that uses that that same backend, and at least kind of when samurai was in operation, I think you know, if anyone was using it from the early days, you couldn't even use your own backend, you had to use theirs,

7:27and it was pretty neat in the fact that you could access that over tour, but obviously the the backend sees a lot of your information like in terms of transactional information, you get a lot of network privacy, there was never an email or sign up type thing in the disclosure name, but it is seeing that public key, the extended public key, which is used to generate your addresses and therefore kind of, you know, anyone with access to that and does see all your transactions, and so samurai kind of eventually open source that backend, so users could run it themselves, and then when a lot of their infrastructure got taken down, and I'm pretty sure like, it's actually quite a while back now, isn't it, it's over almost two and a half years ago, and pretty sure like the samurai dojo went down pretty much instantly along with Whirlpool and along with OXT, and there was some other infrastructure that seemed to kind of hang around okay like the pain in serve, for example, for a while, so it's a bit uneven what was taken down, but yeah, that sort of got taken down,

8:30and you know, it would have hit a lot of people with quite a degree of panic and inconvenience, certainly we saw in like the wallet chats at the time, folk were just needing to wanted to move their funds to another wallet, they were anxious, and yeah, you couldn't see the balance because the dojo was out, and so it was a pretty kind of painful migration I think for a few people, I think shout out Seth, you kind of did a guide for kind of helping people sweep their assets over to something like a sparrow, or there was, I'm sure there were guides for like cake and envoy and all that, but like, you know, many people don't really run their own notes, and you know, they were really resting a lot on the samurai back end to provide that, and of course, you know, like the samurai guys were pretty confident with the note that they were, you know, that they had the right infrastructure, but of course it was like a central point of failure, and you know, when it did get taken down much to their surprise,

9:30they weren't expecting anything like that, you know, it really, you know, it's fine for putting in kind of some pretty sensitive information in the hands of the feds, it's it also just mainly, I think kind of caused the issue for folk not being able to use their wallet and not having an easy thing to kind of turn to, because the nature of that of that wallet, the dojo is a kind of heavy kind of indexer, so it's not something that you can just kind of point and switch easily to another wallet. It's always been a bit of a, you know, you're a rescan, you have the wallet rescan server in order to kind of point it to another dojo, so kind of, you know, just in terms of background here, you know, it was a bit, it was a big kind of central point of failure, and I'm sure, you know, like people appreciate the kind of the work that samurai did in making it available for those that wanted to, but of course, as we all know, like it's a fairly rare thing to be running your own node as a bit corner when using these wallets still. Yeah, I didn't actually know that in the early days you had no choice but to use the default node, I guess that must have been a feature

10:35that the, you know, the custom dojo that they added thereafter, so that's interesting little tip before me there. When did that get added? So I don't know actually, I don't know if it's around 20, it might be in, I mean, I'm struggling with memory now for kind of like obviously anything that happened pre-COVID feels like 20 years ago and you're doing that time, I have no idea. And I got a feeling like, I mean, don't quite miss, it might even be something like 2018, 2019 that they released dojo. And I mean, before I even used samurai, they were using the, I think the blockchain info APIs. And that was kind of when it was in, it wasn't even called beta then, it was in kind of an alpha state. And without getting distracted too much, that was one of the early criticisms that they had which they'd kind of made sure everyone that was running the wallet fully understood, but there was a pretty kind of you know, shape, pretty early shade thrown at them then for saying like, hey, you've got a privacy wallet and you've got a back end that's hitting up on a provider there or something like

11:39that. So yeah, it was an early kind of drama that those guys had had. Interesting. Yeah, a bit more of a pointed question while we're talking about dojo itself. Like, why the custom back end software, why not leverage what the existing stuff that's already out there, the more kind of vanilla, intellectual server type architecture? Yeah, I mean, I think it's not an easy question to answer in some ways because the dojo stack itself has changed. And it's quite, it's a lot easier to answer now, I think because it's quite a lot more features in that project in terms of what you get in that in that no distribution for whatever the better word versus others. But I think kind of even in the early days, powerful is better for kind of to explain the architecture, but just one thing to explain to everyone. It is straight Bitcoin core at the basic basis of the architecture. And there is in

12:44the early days, there was a thing called I think it's called address indexes. And I don't know if it's maintained to the same degree. Now it might be fully switched out with Fulcrum, but effectively, it was even back then a way to run your node, not just with Bitcoin core, but having like an electron indexer with it. But one of the neat things it was is rather than communicating over the electron protocol, you actually had like a, or my mind is going in terms of the architecture, but it's like a, it was a MQ, I think communication. And it's like a, it was a, it was a less heavy API to access in terms of getting the information back is the kind of the simplest way I could say it. So with something like an electron server, you're doing, oh, go on, my memory is fading me again here. I'm trying to think of the name of the protocol, but it's like a SPV, that's it, sorry. And you're downloading like block headers, you're downloading quite a lot of information. And you actually noticed this if you ever use something like Sparrow over tour, like even though it's a,

13:49you know, very efficient app, even if you're using something like Fulcrum, you Sparrow over tour, it can take a couple of minutes on a deep wallet to actually fully sync. And that's just not really usable on a mobile wallet. So Dojo is very much built to, to serve mobile devices that were going to be operating over tour. So you're not headed to the same extent, you're actually able to do a far more efficient query. And like the indexing of, of, of like the transactions, you're actually kind of storing the X-Pub on the node. So even when you're wallet's not open, it's keeping track of all the transactions that are relevant to you. Like that's probably kind of the simplest way to put it. And since then, of course, like, you know, more things have been added, but you've got some really neat stuff on that architecture. Like you can query an API and point to see if like an address has been seen before. You can, you've got, you've got very good like fee estimation, things like ricochet or any possible on the Dojo stack. They're not something that you

14:49can do on, on, on, on an electric. But what I, one of the things I would say though is Dojo as a package does still include electric and it would utilize electric. And if you say you do like a full rescan of the wallet or something like that, even if you're not going basis, you're doing the Dojo API. But yeah, so it's, it is a kind of, it's very much an architecture built for a mobile wallet over tour, which does have different demands to like say a desktop wallet, you're accessing over HTTPS. Makes sense. All right. So the arrest app and the main server goes down. Ashi Garu pops up at some point there after I can't remember the time that's specifically. Then we have this thing called Dojo Bay pop up because correct me if I'm wrong, but Ashi Garu didn't run any back end, whatsoever. So if you, if you were kind of, you had a samurai shaped hole in your stack and you wanted to maintain wallet and then you migrated to Ashi Garu, you have to use either your own node or point it to a custom Dojo back end of somebody that you knew or trusted or once, or was happy to trust.

15:53So from then on, you know, we had, we saw Dojo Bay, which I believe was on a different domain back then, spin up as a as a community project, I believe. I can't remember the name of the name now, is it XTA? Yeah, it's like that. Like, take it, let's jump off from that, that pointing time and walk us through what happened. Yeah, so I can't remember like where the idea came from Dojo Bay. I'm not even sure like if it was even mentioned in that Ashi Garu podcast as like something that the community should do, or if XTX had already explored that, that's the name that set up the Dojo Bay originally. I'm also sure that Laurent, who I think built Dojo in the early days before Pavel maintained it and was the guy that built OXT. I think he, I can't remember, I was trying to find a tweet earlier. I'm sure he said something about like it would be good to use kind of other folks, Dojo's, but if you're going to do any kind of directory, they should be, they should be signing for it in some way, you know, like so, you're not, you know, just kind of blindly trusting,

16:56kind of payloads because, you know, hooking up to to someone else's node, you know, they are serving you like a lot of sensitive information as well as the fact that you're obviously giving them some information on a selective kind of basis. But what I do know is that like it's really kind of quite an effort. XTX when he kind of did this, he, as far as I know, he like, he worked with, I think it was mind-in-box to get a server up and running. It was originally hosted Dojo Bay. PW. And effectively, it was like an HTML site with some Python scripts going out. And the idea that he had was I will set up all the, I'll use my own kind of social kind of, you know, skills here to kind of find people that are willing to kind of put up their own Dojo's, people that are known in the community. And I'll host them on here and I'm going to put a load of disclaimers here and say, look, these aren't, you know, I don't run a Dojo, you know, sorry, as a Dojo, as an operator of this site, you're trusting me and my Dojo, but you're trusting any Dojo

17:57that you decide to kind of go to. And it was a fairly kind of good mix of different Dojo's. And one of the things that kind of became clear to me as well is I thought, like, wow, like this is pretty cool because like, you know, this was the first stage of like decentralizing, you know, the idea of Dojo because obviously you had this incredibly painful centralization with Samurai in the first go. And all you needed suddenly was a huge gain with Dojo Bay, which is that if you actually think even from a point of view of some kind of law enforcement inquiry, they could easily go previously to Samurai who are a known legal entity and say, I expect, you know, I want you to provide me the, you know, transactions that involved this address that was always an avenue of law enforcement action. But if you, of course, you go to something like a Dojo Bay, which is just a website. And I think you're named kind of in a similar way to Pirate Bay. It's just a directory, you know, you're not going to someone that's necessarily

18:58got the Dojo. And even if they are maintaining a Dojo, like, it's just a website and whoever's gone to them, like if all the Asha Garu, Samurai and Sentinel users, like, there's no indication there of which Dojo it necessarily, they necessarily be using. And of course, what was also clear is we've got people in Spain, Singapore, the UK, the US, Canada, like this whole set of different jurisdictions that people are operating in. And so you now have a choice of like, I'm, you know, maybe I'm in the US and I don't want my Dojo with my sense of information to be in the US. You know, yeah, I've got to trust maybe this guy in Mexico or something like that. But how I'd rather do that than have someone, you know, that's in the same country of the law enforcement or tax advisors or whoever it is, are looking at. And, you know, that's where it's important for my privacy or, you know, some marketing and folk that are aggressively kind of trying to steal data. You know, like, you kind of, you've got a hugely kind of huge gain there. So, XX did like amazing work there. And I think in the early days, it was only like, say, three or four different

20:02kind of Dojo operators. And by the end of it, there was like about 20 Dojos, all kind of, you know, on this site across various jurisdictions and he also hosted TestNet ones as well. So, it was really, really kind of great project. And I was always interested in it. And it was kind of, it was an late stage, I thought actually, I think we can have even a bit of a different approach to Dojo Bay. But I just stopped there if there's any kind of questions on that or anything that I didn't make clear. Yeah, so in the early iteration, like, what was the, the user flow? So, obviously, you've got these power users benevolent kind of community members that are like, yeah, sure, like I've got a Dojo. It's sitting idle most of the time. You can connect to it if you want to. Like, what was the, the user flow? Like, was the, I don't want to say white listed, but was it a feature kind of, yes, so they were of Ashigaru or was it more of a manual process? No, it's completely manual. And like, I think that, so there's two things there that was kind of manual is like,

21:02one is getting a use to even be aware of it. And obviously, it's, it's had a clean it site, doesn't have the best SEO or anything, but it was something that was really useful. I found useful to give to people, say, on like the samurai support groups, like, they wanted to continue to use samurai. They had their back there of samurai back up. And they knew quite a lot of people that had been helping out in the telegram groups for a while. And so I could, you'd, I could say, hey, you can use my node and rather than trying to send them some pairing code, I could just send them the dojo bailing. It was always a bit awkward. And I think it's probably still the same in Ashigaru trying to repair a dojo, although Ashigaru did introduce some improvements on like the re-scanning. So, you know, you didn't lose like pain in connections in the same way like you did with samurai. But I think, you know, really like probably where it needs to go in the future is not to just be some site. I've seen like BTC wrestlers here, but like, wrestlers looking at like, maybe doing some improvements on Sentinel and trying to get a pull request in there and trying to actually

22:02bake in like the dojo bay into the Sentinel wallet. And I think if that works and if that's successful, obviously it would never be possible to do in the samurai wallet. But I think it's probably a chance to ask the Ashigaru team, hey, like, this seems to have gone down well with Sentinel, we've got something working here. Would you guys be up for, you know, improving the onboard inflow so that when someone downloads the wallet, because very rarely that someone, you know, that's, you know, first using Bitcoin or first trying out this wallet is necessary to have all the infrastructure. It gives them a way to say, okay, like, in the same way if you do you sparrow or or some other wallet, you see kind of a set of nodes in there available, you could like hook up to the dojo bay, get a web page or something like that and select like nodes according to the jurisdiction or the NIM that you want to use. So, I think that's kind of the next step of where this goes. The other thing I say is is that XTX was doing a bit of a job of actually managing the dojo operators that elected to put their credentials on the site. So, he'd do a bit of approval process

23:03and one of the things that I think he pioneered as well was beginning the effort to get folk to actually sign with a bit 47 signature, their actual pair of credentials. And it was never kind of fully uniform across his site, but he started that and what that meant was is that let's say, you know, you decide to connect to mine, you know, Max, Taneel's Singapore dojo and you're like, okay, cool, trust Max, I'm okay with using his dojo, but I'm not sure if I trust XTX and his dojo bay site. Well, with what the information that I provided to XTX, I had to put on the site, I provided him my pairing code and I signed it with bit 47. So, if he tried to actually, if someone didn't trust him and he manipulated my code to go to say malicious dojo, that wouldn't come through as a valid bit 47 signature. So, that was like where it really started to kind of, I think become a lot more viable as a decentralized alternative to the centralized dojo.

24:05That's clever, I didn't know that part. So, you can have trust in, because a lot of the relationships that people can build over the years with nims become friends and there's a certain level of trust and that is, let you say that's so much better than just having one centralized point. I do remember, though, before the arrests, I can't remember what it was called, but there was a push to decentralize and make it so that you were connecting to other dojo nodes anyway. And I can't remember what it was called, but I feel like it was very close. That was over the Soroban network. Yeah, and so that was about like, yeah, there's actually that's about broadcasting your transaction. So, you'll find other dojo nodes, there's Soroban, onion, you'll do that. One of the funny things here, actually, one of the benefits of for me of running dojo and dojo

25:05is I actually don't enable my dojo to, when it broadcasts transactions, to go to other dojo nodes. And the reason I do that is because it just, because I don't want my transaction broadcasting slower, but I also personally don't need the privacy benefit of Soroban because other people use my node to broadcast transactions from it. So, I've already got like a bit of it, but I still make sure I kind of, my dojo relays other Soroban transactions. And that's kind of configurable. But yeah, it's a very, it's a real mix and you've got to like, So it provides, it provides cover by allowing other people to broadcast transactions. Then it's like, well, it could be my transaction. It could be someone else's. Exactly. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. So, we had the first iteration. I'll call it V1 that XTX did. And I could see him in Twitter chat as well, so to you sir, hope you're well. What was the impetus to kind of migrate

26:06from that to the new one? What did the new site allow before we dive into the details of it? Yeah. So, so first off, I didn't start off with the intention of doing any kind of migration. I actually just basically ran it through like Claude and asked for a bit of a design difference, like to kind of make it a bit kind of more modern as a UI try to try it out. And then I kind of went down a rabbit hole. And my original intention was actually to just have it as almost like a separate project. So I started, I did actually end up doing a, you know, having a VPS. But my original vision for this was actually to never have like any kind of dojo bay like XTX is on ClearNet, which he also had available on tour. And my thought was, I'm going to just try an alternative kind of user interface, try a few differences,

27:07build it in a different code base that's like just JavaScript, a type script, because that I'd had some success with that with the bit 47DB project. And I thought, you know what, I'm just going to try and make this a tour thing because it's just kind of like another level of decentralization and censorship resistance. Because, you know, when you're operating, which I thought you for for XTX is site, when you're operating a site over ClearNet, even if it is available over over the onion, it's still an IP address that someone can find elsewhere. So I kind of thought mine, my site is more just like an alternative implementation and just like a more less kind of obvious, but kind of something that could be spun up. But then like I kind of did more and more on it. And, you know, like, I mean, I felt a bit bad at one point because I just called it the Dojo Bay, but XTX didn't have any ego or anything. And he was just like, yeah, really like your project. And we just exchanged some ideas on the signal chat with Jordan and kind of went

28:08back and forth. And then I just kind of started, I think the kind of the vision came a bit clearer as I started doing it, which is, okay, I will, it actually thinking of it, the Dojo Bay itself doesn't need to be on ClearNet at all because it can just be on tour because, you know, the only people that can be connecting to it are going to be using tour anyway. And so then I kind of thought, oh, I just have an introductory site on ClearNet. And that would just be on GitHub pages. So I don't even have to faff around with any hosting costs. And then that'll give people instructions on how to download tour and to give a bit of information on the project. But actually the whole site will be on on onion. And I thought eventually I'll have it on my desktop. But then I thought, you know what, if I'm not going to do it on the same hardware as my Dojo because it's also testing the uptime of the Dojo. And that was the other big change I made is that like, I don't know if you ever kind of seen these status page websites for various services. And then they'll show like, I think uptime Kummer is a, that's the right word, a name for the project. Do something similar. But one of

29:10things I'd always noticed is that it was really, really problem-app annoying. Like if you're connecting to a Dojo, you didn't know if tour was being unreliable or if actually the Dojo site was up. And so what I first did was when I did my implementation, I built like a kind of a tracker on how long it been up and what the uptime was. So you can get an idea of how reliable that node is. And then I also did another thing which was I actually had my Dojo Bay authenticate to every Dojo and get like the latest block height. And so that then gets put on a panel on the Dojo Bay. And then that way, if you're trying to connect to a Dojo, you want to know if it's up or whatever, you actually compare it to a whole other bunch of Dojos. And you know, if the indexer is fallen behind on one, you don't sit there and get frustrated with your wallet. You're like, oh okay, you know, Jordan's node is down. I'll use maxes or something like that. And so that was kind of like my initial kind of start. And that as to kind of where I was finding I kind of wanted to improve things myself. The other aspect as well was, and the one of the reasons I chose Javascript or TypeScript

30:17as a service is that Jordan had done this website called PaymentCode.io if you remember. And it's kind of gives you all the, it gives a lot of instructions on how to use Bit 47, how to use Auth 47. And then I decided, you know what, rather than just having this as an optional thing where you can sign your credentials, I'm now going to like enforce it on the Dojo Bay. And so like where we are at the moment, like I've had to cut a couple of Dojo guys off the bay because they just either couldn't be bothered or didn't really want to sign for their credentials. But now we've got like over 10 Dojo nodes, all basically where every operator has got a Bit 47 code. And you can see their pairing information and it's verified with a Bit 47 signature. And when you, and because I was able to use the PaymentCode site and that would help my kind of coding here of the site,

31:19I also made it so that I didn't have to be the guy that like registered people's Dojos and have people contact me by a signal. So now what you can basically do is you can log in with Auth 47 into the Dojo Bay and add your Dojo for other people to see. And if you want to say change the pairing code because you've moved Dojos, you want to change the name, you want to change the location, you can just do that and log into the site. And then for me as the operator of that site, I can also log in and I have like an admin console where I can approve and delete Dojos and I log in with Bit 47 as well. And so like now you've kind of got this situation where like this directory is not only just supposed to be trustless, it actually is entirely trustless because it does the verification, the cryptographic verification of all pairing loads against signatures. And so it'll only even allow a Dojo in if it's been signed by a Bit 47 address. And even the other thing I kind of realized as well is how do people know to even trust my site, like my URL for the Onion,

32:22well I make sure I sign that with a Bit 47 code and you can see at the bottom left hand corner of the site, like you can actually verify that my wallet has signed for the Onion. So now any use that comes to it can actually like go to the site, be sure this is a site run by Max Tannihill. And when they look at it, they can go, oh I can actually use a node for Max Tannihill or one of the other 10 people here and use one of those notes. And so it's like now it's like this very very kind of not only a censorship resistant directory, but it's very very like trustless and it's kind of very decentralized because you can't really get much more decentralized than down to your individual. And if you as a wallet user just want to literally, hey I want to use, you know, XTX is Dojo's, you can be absolutely cryptographically sure that you are using that. And so like that was a kind of a couple of the things that I put into the new site. Very nice. Any chance of a little showcase for anyone who's watching?

33:22Yeah, I hope we can share my screen, but I'll just try it now. Let's just say, can you see that in a second we can? Yeah, nice. Cool. So yeah, I can kind of talk through some of the things here. So you've got like the panel here. So in this case here, this one is syndicate systems. That particular Dojo is run by a guy that I know has been in the samurai community for a long time. He runs a very powerful node. And obviously I wouldn't allow people on the ID in person. Trust, but the idea here is, some people are going to pick people that they also do trust as well. But you can go through here and you've got some detail. He's not said where he is, but he's got a good reliability score. He's kind of said like the hardware he is. You've also got a Dojo version here as well. And this information along with the block height,

34:25the Dojo Bay is actually grabbing every like 10 minutes and authenticating the Dojo. So it's completely up to date. We don't rely on any of the Dojo Bay users to actually kind of update and keep it in check. The API, Dojo API, you can just copy and grab and you'll find this embedded in the pairing details in a QR code here. And although obviously the site itself is verifying and won't allow a pairing code that doesn't also have a sign message, you could also copy this and put it into a tool or into your AshaGar or a samurai wallet and verify that the that pairing code is a properly signed message and hasn't been interrupted. The other thing that's probably worth knowing, we also have, it's not just Dojos that you have here. A lot of the Dojos will include their own Electrum Service. And so we grab from the actual pairing code through an authenticated endpoint. It's not part of the signed pairing code, but you can actually grab this yourself as well. You can actually copy Electrum Server endpoint. So if you're

35:26using like on via a sparrow or something like that and you just want a Dojo that you can communicate with over tour or something, you just grab and copy one from someone that you trust here. And you don't even need to use a Dojo, for example. And so this is also going to be important for if you're using AshaGar terminal or the AshaGar desktop, you might not even use Dojo, but you'll need like an Electrum Server and you'll want a set that are available. Maybe if you don't run your own node, you can grab it off the Dojo Bay here as well. Also got some instructions here that, you know, if you actually want to grab this information and not rely on the website to present to you, you can just put these details into a terminal and it will give you the ability to kind of just grab this information directly as well. See here as I scroll through on the operators. I've also given an ability for people to put in a website. So in this case here, I put in my own Dojo Bay.org website and this, if you've ever, guys, if ever use something like Keybase, where you're like signed for a site, all of the only websites here that approve a shown are ones

36:27that I've actually, or wheat that the user has actually done a verification with a bit 47 over here. So you can actually see you can actually kind of verify on a TXT record on that site, that person's own. And the idea here is is obviously the the paintings are a good source of trust, but if, for example, like maybe you're a fan of Arcad and his Spanish educational Bitcoin site, you can be sure this is really Arcad because he's, Professor did, I can't pronounce that, PrivacyDadbitcoin.com is actually definitely owned by him and run there. So you kind of got a lot of, like, you know, useful kind of information to help you to go through. I'll just like log in onto the Dojo as well. Let's hope this works. Okay. So you'll see here as I'm going to manage my Dojo. Now I am an operator on this site as well. So you're going to see a little more than just that. But you get like a challenge and all 47 challenges. This will be similar if you've ever used Dojo with your payment, if you're logging into the Dojo Maintenance tool, or if you've used

37:31Jordan's Payment Code IO website. And what I would just do here is obviously you guys can't see it, but I'm opening Asha Garry wallet in the background. And I'm now going to the Tools menu, going to authenticate using Paynum Scan that QR. And then I'm going to authenticate. And then that will sign that challenge there that's being presented to us and like log me in there. And you can also kind of copy and paste it if you need to as well. But I'm just scanned with a QR. And so here you are. I can now manage my Dojo. I don't need to deal with the operator. And I can do things like edit my Paynum code, change the name, put in the details here. And this is what would happen if you added a new Dojo and wanted to submit there. And when you just actually submit that, it's going to check your payment codes as well. As the administrator of this site, I can also open an admin console here. And this will be kind of more useful as we kind of go,

38:33speak a bit further on this. But actually you can see what this is like for me to actually operate as a site as well. And so you can see here I've got like a moderation panel. So none are pending review. So I've approved all that are here. And I've got a list of all like the people that have asked to list their Dojos on my site. And so I can edit, reject, remove them, approve them as when they go. It's very nicely laid out site just to get away from the technicals for a second. Is this all your handy work or? Well, it's Claude, isn't it? I've had to kind of go through it a bit and go through. But yeah, like again, one of the nice things here, I mean like hopefully it doesn't look like every other fucking dashboard that Claude Gemini created that seems to kind of equate the corporate world. And for anyone that's also looking to do, you know, dashboards and various things, like at least one thing you can do is like go and go, you know, head towards like the old Samurai site or the very nice

39:34Dojo SP site. Say give me that color scheme and you know, make it look a bit more like this. So I've kind of tried to make it look a bit more like kind of something from the Samurai kind of ecosystem. It's very nice. And for me though, the most important thing here, and this is where we kind of get, and this is kind of something I've really done just in the last few weeks, is what I kind of call like the next level of decentralization of this is that you can actually see here is when I push code and update to GitHub, I can actually click this button update from GitHub here. Now we're up to date here because we're on release 1.1. But as updates are done on GitHub, for me running this Dojo Bay, and this is completely possible for anyone else to run as well, they can just click that button and it'll update with the latest commit and reboot and you'll just have the Dojo Bay run from there. So it's no kind of complex command line interface all shit to deal with. You can just literally update it with the button. The other thing that's quite neat as well, and I've had quite a lot of success with this. I've tested it quite a lot,

40:36is you can actually update from this peer.union. And so let's say my GitHub gets seized. I can click this button update from peer.union. And let's say someone else has kind of taken on the Dojo Bay added a bit more code. I can download, I just put in the URL into here and I can download their source code and overwrite it with my website. And when I actually enter in that onion, I'm also prompted to enter in there a bit before you seven code. So you are only going to be getting source code from a URL of somewhere of a nin that you actually trust. So it's kind of, it's pretty powerful. And like if I actually just go back to the main directory, you'll see it at the bottom. At the bottom left hand corner, you have my little nin here that shows that I'm running it and obviously for different people that are running it, you click here and you see a different logo and different QR and you can verify that as well that, you know, this is my onion. The neatest thing here really is is that you can see what build we're up to if you want to check for whatever Dojo

41:38Bay you're looking at, what one that is in GitHub. You can obviously go to the GitHub project but this button here, this little Git button, this is where you actually can download a zip of the source file as well. And so this is quite something I feel quite strongly about. And a lot of this is to do with my experience and there was a guy that was kind of fairly active in the software and Bitcoin chat. He was doing some cool stuff guy called Viberant for BTC. Did some really cool stuff like built a kind of well-pulled stats site. Did some couple of other things. And if he's listening now, and he's a big fuck you because he went ahead and just deleted everything and then fucked off off the fucking comments channels taking a load of code with him, which pissed me off no end. So one of the things I feel pretty passionate about is if I'm going to build a tool, even if I disappear or whatever, you guys can hopefully just run this tool, you can go to the website and you can download the whole source code. And so I don't even know now but there could be other people running Dojo Bays. And I wouldn't know because they'd come to my tour instance. They may click

42:40this download. And if they spin up their own Dojo Bay, I wouldn't even know about it because those URLs are private on onion. So this is a way to try and get this source code as like viral as possible and to make sure it's not easy to delete. The other kind of nice aspect of this is the Dojo Bay that is at the kind of the reference Dojo. So this one here that I'm actually looking at now. This sits on a VPS. So it's fundamentally a bit more vulnerable than safe. It's in hardware on my own home. But one of the nice things is because it's so easy to install like when I actually download this yeah. Can I just jump in there? When you say it's more vulnerable, what do you mean by that? Do you mean more vulnerable for seizure or a problem? Because okay, fine. Just because I'm not in terms of safety. No, it's just like I'm running like like I fully trust my VPS provider. They're great. They're really good. But who knows? It's still a third party if they disappear. Yeah. And that box has gone. Similarly, if there's a legal kind of order and they know what VPS

43:43that is at, they could potentially say, right, you're going to take that Dojo Bay down. Like think back to the days of the pirate bay where that kept on getting taken down. Even though it never had any torrents, it had URLs or trackers to other torrents. And so one of the things that we get away from here is we're not relying on any DNS. So there's no kind of clean it domains where we've got to do what Pirate Bay did and go to like you know, Pirate Bay dot com dot org, you know, the Pirate Bay dot org. You're straight on tour. And secondly, any instance, you can just download the whole source code. Now, I don't know what Pirate Bay was like to run back in the day. I don't think it was particularly complex. But the website itself was would have sat on GitHub. You don't have to have a fairly good at least a rudimentary knowledge of probably PHP. And you'd have to be a bit of a sort of rabbin and spin that up. But with Dojo Bay, you can just download the source code here. You can open up like a command line installer. And it just runs you through like as a T UI. And it will say, you know, basically, yep, do you want to install the Dojo Bay

44:46here? And the idea here is is that anyone that's got like an Ubuntu machine that's probably got Dojo on it anyway, they can just download this source code, unzip it, literally run it from there. And they're mentoring, they'll have to have a Dojo because it requires that to kind of start up the Dojo Bay needs like an anchor Dojo. But they'll put in their parent code, they'll sign for it, they'll generate an onion address, they'll sign for that onion address. And then after that, the the terminal installer will just crack through crack on. It'll be a minute or two. And you've suddenly got an entire Dojo Bay website just spun up on your on your on your Ubuntu machine. You can now give out to people. And so I actually manage another Dojo Bay that I've never published. And I do it because if this one ever got seized, I could just then publish the other one. And then and the other thing is if you go to my admin page, you'll also see I do another thing here, is that aside from obviously going to another Dojo Bay site and, you know, getting updates with the source code, you can actually import Dojo's from another Dojo Bay. So let's say you're

45:49running your own Dojo Bay privately for yourself. You decide being an enthusiast and you're like, you know, I also want to 100% trust max to run that source code. So I'm going to download the code, make sure it's the same code and I'm going to run it myself. Well, people are going to add more Dojo's over time to my Dojo and your Dojo Bay might fall behind. And so now you just go import other Dojo's, you put in the onion and then you can download and it will only import other Dojo's into your Dojo Bay if they've got signed and verified payloads. So yeah. Sorry jumping over you. I don't know. So that's how to run your own Dojo Bay. Yeah. But what about someone who's running their own Dojo and wants to add it to a or the or a few Dojo Bay's. Then what they would do is basically click into the manage my Dojo and then they'll be prompt to sign in in the same way here. As I've already added my Dojo, it's already there, my verified domain. But as a brand new user,

46:51you'll log in and effectively you'll then be able to enter in your details there. And like that's kind of worked because people like Tom Cruise here. He didn't know his involved. Yeah, he's just well, I feel very fortunate. He just basically I didn't even get like a notification. Like you didn't contact me. Just put his details in. XTX, who runs like a fleet of Dojo's. He's running like died and then he kind of got the new firmware that's come out just recently. Did that. He didn't even need to contact me. Just logged in and and you know, added his Dojo. And then once I saw it in the admin panel, I just approved it. So like just if you even to get added, there's no registering. You don't need to contact me. You just need a working samurai asha Garu wallet that you could do an all 47 sign in with. So like no account, no passwords, nothing like that.

47:52And like, you know, I think the other thing here as well is that this site and the administration site, the idea behind it is it should it should not require you to have more more hardware or anything like fundamental. Any Dojo operator is going to have a Linux machine hopefully like we're in a Ubuntu machine. They're going to have a phone with you know, with samurai asha Garu on. They could they could just spin up a Dojo bay and run it alongside their Dojo if they want. So when you went through that, you clicked manage my Dojo on the Dojo bay. Yes. If you're completely new. So let's just say you're running a Dojo on your own hardware or you're running it yeah, you're running it on like the umbral one or whatever like. Yeah. You you would then click manage my Dojo on the Dojo bay and then you'd want to enter some credentials that you'd actually probably own Dojo or you just you'd actually just all 47 in first. A bunch of all 47 in. It's now grabbed your payment code is now the identity. Yeah. That form is obviously slow now

48:58because it's tall. Yeah. But that form you do all you need to do is basically provide like if I remember I've done it it's been a while since I did it but you put in your country. You don't obviously you can you don't have to do an actual country but if you do you've got a little flag beside. Put your country you say your name or what you want to call it. So bumpy blank here's called his thing Tom Cruise and he's given a good description of his hardware here but then you don't really need to give much else because after that Dojo Bay is going to do a couple of things. You can check your your parent code check your signature of your parent code then it's going to log into Dojo and check your Dojo version and as long as it's above 1.27 it's going to accept it and then it will start grabbing reliability stats from there. So by the time I see that that Dojo waiting for my approval I can actually already see if it's got uptime already and so I'm kind of decided to take my time. Okay. Okay. The other thing as well is that like all the kind of the uptime data that's the only thing really the Dojo Bay is like storing in your trusting it with

49:59because you know you're actually relying on it too obviously it itself goes out authenticates to every Dojo and determines whether it's kind of you know valid or not. You can actually get this data it's kind of top right hand corner here on the JSON so you can actually download or this might be just actually all the Dojo's actually in the JSON file here but like there's in it may read me in the in the GitHub if you actually want to just import like Dojo history you can do that and it will store up to like 90 days of uptime as well. I think for me it's like being quite interesting in the fact that you can actually see how unreliable accessing stuff over tours. Oh yeah. Like you know like you have got to be patient and work around with it. Oh yeah for sure. So if you're a new user I mean like when I first started messing around with Samurai the like anyone who you talk to who is in the groups and stuff would say run your own no run your own don't go don't like yes you can connect to Samurai service but don't do that it was like pretty

51:02strongly recommended. Now that we have these different options like what are the trade-offs for someone who they could run their own dojo but not put it on dojo bay and allow others to connect which means they don't get that additional privacy of other people using it for spends so it's not mixed in that way but they're not no one else is using it so maybe there are other issues there potentially and then using someone else's from the dojo bay and connecting to that like if you were to look at it as what's better they're the three run your own no one connects run your own have it on dojo bay connect to someone else's dojo bay yeah I think that's broadly right I think I wouldn't oversell the privacy benefit of putting your dojo on the dojo bay I'd love it if I could give more incentives for people to put their dojos on the dojo bay but the reality is there's there's not much I mean if you want privacy for your broadcast you can opt into Soroban and you can

52:07get that I think your main benefit putting your node on the dojo bay is actually a kind of it's a community kind of gift and that isn't as silly as it sounds because I'm pretty sure especially for the listeners on this podcast most of us have got a few close friends that we've onboarded on to Bitcoin and when we've onboarded like sure the vast majority will be like hey I want a KYC onto Binance or Coinbase for the ones that being good onboarding we've gone and helped them set them up with a samurai or ashygari wallet and then we've probably onboarded them to our own node and I think the benefit here is rather than onboarding them to your own node you actually say I'll write this down with your with your recovery seed and all that dojo bay dog and then if you ever can't get in contact with me again go to dojo bay you will find my dojo there hopefully if I if I'm never not in contact but the other thing is if you need access to your funds and I'm not around on my nodes down there's other trusted people that you can go to do that and so I kind of feel that's

53:08the thing the other thing of course is is you could run your own dojo bay with three or four of your own close friends dojos and you don't have to publish it you don't tell anyone else about it and just tell your own friends about it no one's going to find that dojo bay because it's on tour it's on it's on it so and you don't even have to publish it on mine mine is just like a reference one which should hopefully be the most popular because there's a a clear net path to it via the kind of my GitHub pages site but ultimately you know it's it's very much kind of up to you I would say is it if you're going to onboard people and you're like say let's say you're concerned about the whole x pub thing you know someone's using a dojo you're always going to be giving away a dojo those x pubs to to that dojo operator one of the things that you can do is it's also another cool thing is you can help that user that you set up with a bit 47 code and then you know let's say you sold them some Bitcoin for their kind of their first stash and they've got set up on the wallet and it's connected to your node you can send it to to their bit 47 address

54:12and the bit 47 addresses aren't x pubs they're not tracked as x pubs in a dojo they are tractors loose addresses so when you actually receive to bit 47 and you're using a dojo like you've got no privacy kind of real concerns you know the only thing that that dojo operator knows is it's an address they can't type the user you're connecting to them over tour there's no kind of timing correlation or anything like that that they can realistically do so you know you've got like it's a great way I find to set people up and you know the other thing as well is is amongst the most sovereign of us of users i'm sure there's always been times like if you're trying to use samurai or asha guru you may actually need to use someone else's dojo and i think it's i you know i could save myself i've got at least three people but i know other at least three other guys at run dojos that i would personally happily put my x pubs on not because i want them to know about my transactions because i wouldn't know their mind like i'm collecting over tour

55:12and i trust them to to to realistically you know secure their servers and not worry and it's not like i'm announcing to anyone hey i'm storing it on those devices and one of the things that it travels down with the dojos you can delete x pubs from a dojo via command line i'm hoping that would be something that would be built into like while it's maybe like sentinel later but yeah i think you know it's a very realistic set of trade-offs and you know just a small thing but like you know when when kihane just before he you know when he was having to pay that horrendous like six million dollar fine for example he paid that with bitcoin and didn't have a node to connect to and obviously he only had like a samurai wallet that was kind of one time he was allowed to make a transaction like he connected to my dojo because of the dojo but so like when you've actually got the developer a samurai wallet comfortable in a set set of trade-offs using someone else's node i think it comes to us you that you know some people are a bit a bit too prescriptive on you must always use your own

56:17note like yeah it's obviously preferable and you'll use it to validate but they're very realistic ways of of managing your privacy and and also making sure that you don't screw yourself over and having backups for you and your friends and family that might be using this ecosystem of software yeah i would add to that as well that it depends how people use bitcoin and i'm for having not all your eggs in one basket and not just using one device or one system and so if you are sharing your ex-pub and you're trusting in you know someone you know in the community you're on their their dojo you don't have to necessarily have all your funds it course you know generally it's like you could have them go through a whirlpool and then they're on there and that's your spending money which is what i see ashi garu has been the you know the best really for spending on chain so then you can do that it doesn't mean you have to share

57:17your savings or your kids or your wives or whatever else you've got separation especially like given now what we've seen over the last couple of months yeah yeah like being a tax cold card this and that i've always just separated things because i don't trust myself to know enough so i've always gone well have like five different systems and then if one or two gets attacked i'm not fucked and that's kind of like maybe more necessary now than ever and i agree yeah i think anyway that's that's my two cents no absolutely i'm 100% agree i think the other thing as well is um you know for good reason a lot it's made about a concern about the ex-pub privacy because it's not just about the transactions that you've done it's all the transactions that you will do but like the other thing is is you know you can just set up new wallets as well so you know if you've been used on the wallet and you kind of move to someone else's node you can just do a throw away wallet on someone's node to use for a period of time and then kind of go back to your other one or you know if you said you keep it in a savings

58:18wallet that's you know maybe connects over an election server like a sparrow or something like that but yeah like it you know i actually think that you know the website will obviously you know there's been some time put into making it somewhat presentable and usable i'm actually kind of hoping that the website is not where people find this i'm actually hoping this is something that does get baked into the wallets because it is one of these things it just really ideally needs to be behind the scenes and just basically be part of a kind of more you know more kind of normal UX and we kind of get get get get get get gets hopefully to a point where you know users can get onto the more advanced wallets that have got those capabilities without having like this just horrendous kind of friction of like oh yeah before you use this one you've got to have your own node first yeah it's just it's horrible that so yeah that's kind of you know that's the hope here yeah absolutely yeah I think sparrow can like you said earlier max pioneered that kind of you know choose your own journey if you've got a no great connected if not viable alternatives and the fact that

59:20so in some way or albeit like I should say you can there are some improvements to be had to make that even more friendly but the fact that it's kind of coming in the dojo architecture is is very promising to me so and we are coming up on time i just want to quickly give you a chance to sign off with um basically what's next um i know max has kind of held the mic for the past 10 or 15 minutes with in terms of asking questions but i just wanted to say looks incredibly well thought out clearly a lot of thoughts gone into it is not a kind of one shot type of website that so i just wanted to doff my hat to you sir and ask you like what's coming next do you see it as a finished product or is there anything else that you kind of want to tack on to it to to further it and push it further on i think at the moment probably i'll probably like i've actually still got to do some work on bit 47db kind of as i've done this i've realized there's some things i should improve back there so i'll kind of hop between i hope this is as i don't intend to reject this much more it'll obviously need to be maintained a bit but like i think it's as it's as close to finished just

1:00:23as it as it ever has been so it's kind of quite good i think kind of next up is um i've got like a proof of concept that i'll um i'd be i hopefully get a chance to speak here or whatever that's similar to the the utx ioracle type thing with getting um uh you know an inferred usd price from the blockchain but really just something that you know a lot more coupled to running on dojo my other intention i just haven't got around to it yet is um is to move these repos into the dojo open source project um pavl invite me to do that which i'm very grateful for but that's also important because it gives people like other people access to the repo and like you know also eliminate central point of failure with like one guy in a github which we want to move away from and so if i can move these projects and they're hopefully in a in a way that is is readable as well i mean that's one of the nice things about using a i is even if you can code at least get you get the a i to give you a really nice read me and document your repo really well because you know in

1:01:24the event of any kind of someone taking over from you or forking it or whatever um that that's going to be really helpful um so that's kind of like at least my immediate plan and i would like to do an npc um basic kind of cosigner i've talked about that a lot i'm still i'm now finding i've now about probably got the capabilities to do that i don't know how secure it will be but it's that's probably a kind of a more worthwhile project um probably take me a few months but like you what's quite nice now is i'm getting a bit more confidence with doing these projects like bit 47db i think was one month and this is being two months in like you know the other evenings and weekends and all that to do and like really i just you know would just say to everyone as well here is is that you know look at what i've done here and like you know i'm not a developer um obviously you know exercise caution with the code that i've released here but i have tried to audit it with other tools as well as much as possible um i have actually as a result of this even done some upstream

1:02:25uh feedback to uh other co-bases that i built on where the with security could be improved so that really goes to show you the benefit of like when you actually do fork and open source project and try and use other kind of sources there that's where kind of vulnerabilities do get found um the other thing as well is i don't know if it's something i would do but like maybe it's something someone else would do is like yes this is the dojo bay and i've done this for dojos and all that but i've got this kind of nagging feeling here that potentially here this directory structure like it could be used for some kind of you know an equivalent of a woo comments but there's better back by dojos um is multi-centralized and could be your darknet only and the idea of just being able to spin up like your little shop or something like that um on your pc really easily like i kind of hope that this would be a bit of a kind of a serve as a bit of an inspiration to do it obviously this here is very niche it's just for dojos and it's a kind of very small thing but from what i can see from like the you know the website i built you know the all 47 and makes it a dream to kind

1:03:27of maintain and log in you know and it's easy and you know i'm not entirely sure what else could be done with it but i'm pretty sure it's a good like um foundation for you know if you wanted to kind of spin up like other directories um that have other useful information you know a hell even something like a kyc not me you could have other people submitting it with bit 47 codes or or something else um you know um but just try and do something which is you know onion first and just foundationally built around authentication of credentials so there's the least amount of trust in the actual directory operator themselves awesome yeah at this whole um a i stuff is just getting wild and the fact that people like you are either not developers can build sort of cool stuff is is still very very novel to me and i'm very impressed with it all um i actually had a thought the other day uh about a tool that you and i did manually by hand remember the world ball stats tool that we did with spreadsheet back in the day imagine how easy that would be to

1:04:29get out now and that was a that was really hard work and and also the other thing that you you know obviously still going but your bitcoin seat tool started off as i think a bit of a kind of personal thing and then you got in um uh super fat arrow to help out and you just completely dependent on like a full stacked dev to come in and like do these last parts and here i am and like i mean there's no way i couldn't even set up an onion site before and like now i can do that and i've got like you know not only auth 47 but bit 47 verification going through as well and so like you know every kind of thing one of these that you build as well you know you you you learn from your mistakes and you can kind of iterate as well so like you know like this thing's here like there aren't here on the bit 47db projects you know more use of type script and that was a from advice from paffle on this project i've got full security dot md file um i've got more kind of test cases um yeah it's just um that there's been more you know i do code gl i think it is on

1:05:32GitHub so before everything goes in it like it even has github do AI checks on stuff and so i've kind of run this through Claude on how github i've done germany on on aspects of it i ran a bit of Claude fable until it kind of you know told me not anymore how to bit a kimi when i had a bit of there's a z.ai to kind of run on very specifically testing the uh you know any weaknesses on the on the verification signatures so i'm pretty comfortable that even for someone like me that's not like an actual developer that like there's been enough eyes on this at least from clanker is to take a look but yeah um i think really the the the real the real test of it will be as if someone else takes that project and forks it into something else and then there's you know if there is something wrong with it they'll find it then definitely well um thank you for sharing this with us today uh thank you for giving us your time thank for hopping in for the canadian last minute we do really appreciate it and uh we look forward to having you back on in you know another three to six months with the next project uh i love getting

1:06:36underneath all of this sort of stuff especially when people are on kind of similar technical chops to myself are really diving into this stuff and and being able to nerd out about it i absolutely love it so thank you very much for stopping by me oh go on max just say before we sign off we did manage to get the american to retreat so i think we won this war he couldn't handle three bit brits he's gone there we go the revolution well uh max max thank you very much for stopping by guys thank you everybody it stayed around in the live chat and uh it was part of the conversation we will of course be back with the same time next week maybe with the canadian maybe not depends whether he wants to jack honors or not and we'll we'll also be back live on monday with the very first live bit couldn't breathe so uh we'll see you on monday or we see you on friday we'll see you soon and i hope you all have a great weekend cheers guys don't go for once thank you for listening to freedom tech friday to everyone who boosted ask questions and

1:07:42participated in the show we appreciate you all make sure to join us next week on friday at 9am ecst and 2pm London thanks to seth max and q for keeping it ungovernable and thank you to cake quality foundation and my nimb box for keeping the ungovernable this fits go