The Complete Richard Ramirez Series w/ Thomas777

0:00Man in the life man is like this man You're not in butterfly, fly with this wing Take down in the force man, it gonna cause a tree fall Let it five thousand miles away man If they ain't nobody seein' nobody Man, you shit like you don't need money Man, you don't, it's like you don't need this And you got to like it, it's like that That's the more you're mad Like the day you can't know man Man, you don't need no better man Man, you don't need no better man Alright Thomas, welcome back to the J Bird and show How you doing man? I'm doing well, thanks for hosting me Yeah, I'm glad to have you back on You and I got to hang out a little bit last weekend which is good But we're back to producing content And yeah, we're here for another episode of the occultism series We wrapped up the Baylor's case and we're back to something a little more modern

1:00So I'll throw it to you and let you introduce it I wanted to speak on the Richard Ramirez case And I wanted to say something about the man himself There's a signif against To what he did And The circumstances leading to his arrest And how law enforcement and the media Responded to it That is significant I mean there's two things going on here There was the serial murder epidemic and a Magnum mistake it wasn't an epidemic And obviously Ramirez Very much was a participant in that Phenomena But also he was very much an active occultist the E worship Satan And

2:01Despite what people claim these days and their Revisionist accounts of media culture and Reagan's America You know there wasn't this sensationalist Um coding of things By legacy media suggesting You know that that's satanic crime was Endemic If anything they tried to suppress that when indications of Those sorts of motives were President or emergent There's great concern that this would cause this would cause a mass panic And This was a couple years after Ramirez was arrested It took years to get the trial it wasn't convicted until 89 he was arrested in 85 But in 88 on Halloween Haraldo who back in those days

3:04He He had huge ratings You know he He wasn't particularly respected But he had a Very wide viewership there's a lot of value in his brand And he he put on this two-hour special On Satanism in America and specifically satanic crime and He talked to some guys in you know rock and roll about What they thought of you know There's honor of being associated with satanism And some kind of fluff pop culture stuff But then he talked to Sean Sellers who was then the youngest Man and he was a boy then on death row he was 16 and they did execute him He murdered his parents incident to That's a tanning belief structure They talked to this other guy Theron Roland

4:06He was serving life without parole for a murder he committed at 17 and two of his friends Sacrifice the classmate in an occult ritual Um, I remember watching it with my mom when I dared and uh Finding it really disturbing But one of the reasons Haraldo was criticized for that was People suggested well this is very Unseemly you're profiting from You know the sensationalizing these horrible crimes But also People's reaction and this was among you know what was the quote of the serious commentary it was satanic crime is a very real thing and you're making it appear sensational Okay, so the way this stuff was presented and The way people respond to do it psychologically is very different than what's presented. I know this because

5:08when I talk to Younger people who don't remember it and when I read the stuff You know both um in academic literature as well as stuff online the way it's presented is that well There was this spontaneous narrative of satanism in the 80s because the Christian coalition had a lot of clout And this was just you know promoted endlessly. That's not true You know like don't get me wrong. There were people who were trying to exploit these anxieties and things You know the censored music and media brands. They didn't like but that was sort of a different thing But we were a mirrors played into this and When when Ramirez was on his rampage I was living for part of that year in Ventura, California, Los Angeles and it was terrifying You know um My uncle went out and bought more guns, you know

6:12My dad worked long hours at UCLA um And I was I was home with my mom and my then like infant little brother a lot and I was scared You know It um You know and then Ramirez was arrested There was something really creepy about him And like beyond even the obvious and You know for context too is victim profile and the way he did things It didn't really fit. Well as conventional wisdom in terms of criminology Like don't get me wrong. I've made the point a lot in my content as well as You know just in authoritative conversation John Douglas is a complete fraud and um criminal profiling is is nonsense At behavioral science is nonsense At least as um

7:14It's constituted in the assumptions In terms of to the To it as an academic discipline in the way the FBI employs it But obviously there are variables That can be coded relating to serial murder if if we define a serial murderer as Is somebody who murders three or more strangers incident to A a psychosexual compulsion or you know some other hedonic impulse and overwhelmingly You know serial killers are proceeding a According to um That as sexual imperative and Ramirez himself admitted he would get sexually excited by killing people But that that wasn't the reason why he did it He was very clear that he would have done it anyway but Concomitant with

8:16This very strange sort of a cultic symbolism and and subtext to Malevolent activities that was underway in the 80s and very early 90s There really was a serial murder of a dynamic like I said Some of these statistics. I think we're inflated or otherwise unreliable, but There's a guy Clifford the Lindecker He wrote what I think is the best book on Ramirez um There's a sensational book by Philip Carlo and and Philip Carlo was a real charlatan. He wrote this really stupid book on Richard Kuklinski who was a compulsive liar and And Carlo apparently took everything Kuklinski said piece of alley you enrolled this piece of shit book and I I found his Ramirez book to be really worthless but um Lindecker uh citing a

9:16Book that came out in late 87 or 88 Called serial murder and the growing menace which was on my bookshelf when I was a teenager um There was it was estimated that probably about About about 5,000 people Were being murdered every year by serial murderers Um or potential serial murderers who You know would would commit a single crime and you know and then be And then be caught and prosecuted but uh That The numbers were in the thousands Okay, that's indisputable in my opinion um i'm not gonna bore you with The data that i aggregated on this but um When Ramirez first started killing people

10:16The police didn't want to acknowledge that he was a serial killer Because the severity of what he was doing And again Contra what the narrative is of the satanic panic the police and legacy media didn't want people to jump the conclusion that satanic ritual homicide was underway When it was finally sort of acknowledged what was happening with Ramirez it was august 1985 And to be clear Ramirez had been murdering people for about a year and these home invasion attacks where If there was a A man in the house Ramirez would Shoot him in the head Usually with a 22 And then he'd proceed to assault the female in the house physically and sexually

11:19occasionally He would do the same that children present Generally he'd kill everybody But sometimes he'd leave his victim bound and rates and And maimed but not murdered and I august 8 1985 This was kind of when the world came to know Richard Ramirez as the night stalker Because what he did was he'd stolen a car You know Ramirez actually was a really skilled cat burglar He wasn't conventionally athletic but He was very good at breaking into houses He uh Had a unique skill set Um You know he uh I remember a law her's not sort of describing him as like a ninja

12:20Which seems silly but that It's not totally off face You know and he he was very good at stealing cars He stole a lot of dotsins that in those days that's before Dotson was a folded into Nissan It's speculated that He uh in the machine to own master key or he stole one you know from like a dealership But But for whatever reason he stole a lot of dotsins but they were also ubiquitous then and it was easy to get them chopped and and get cash money and Ramirez was addicted to cocaine and he didn't inject it and if you were injecting 1980s cocaine I mean that you've got a serious physical dependence, okay, so um Ramirez I don't obviously 95 you stole a car And uh he drove to the diamond bar neighborhood And he broke into this house um

13:24There was a lady I think she was Indonesian Ramirez liked Asian women And that becomes significant For reasons I'll get into He uh broken to this lady's house uh Sikina for Sabrina Abeleth I've seen her name spelled both ways She was 27 or husband was a 31-year-old named Elias Abeleth There's around 238 um Ramirez Broken through a window and he silently entered the master bedroom And uh in this case He killed Elias with a 25 with a silence 25 caliber handgun That he handcuffed Sikina And uh forced to reveal a location of any Julian valuables in the house Then he started raping her And uh when he was raping her

14:27He forced her to swear to Satan And to repeat other Occultic phrases that he found significant Um Interestingly she had a three-year-old son Ramirez in this case didn't harm the boy Um He uh tied the boy up and then he continued to rapes Akina And uh Then he just left and this is significant too for reasons I'll get into in a moment There wasn't really any rhyme or reason to what Ramirez did other than the fact that again he He'd invade homes that were usually by the highway Often they were yellow Often the lady the house was Asian He'd always sexually assault the woman but sometimes he'd kill everybody Sometimes the children would be unmolisted Occasionally he'd leave his female victims alive

15:29Um I've got a theory on that and so the Nicholas Shrek Who uh Got to know the man Ramirez very well I take Shrek seriously anyway because he's I'd say he's probably the greatest living authority on occult subject matter and He interviewed and correspondent Ramirez for years And uh Shrek's then wife was actually Ramirez a spiritual advisor which if you're on death row you're entitled to As a constitutional right so He Definitely knew the man and very intimate terms um After the uh I have the aboeath attack this is when This is when Ramirez the game known as the night stalker and His presence centered the public mind as an occult

16:29serial killer or like a satanic motivated serial killer Um It uh When she recovered Enough to issue a formal statement to police The sakina said she woke up because she'd heard this popping sound which turned out to be Ramirez Murdering her husband with a silence 25 She said Ramirez seemed like he came out of the ether or something You know, he just kind of silently appeared she said what you're remembered most about he wasn't wearing a mask or anything If you said that he had these rotten teeth and um He was speaking in what sounded like different voices and uh Well, when he started demanding to know Where more valuables were other than what

17:31He located through Ram's second house. She said I swear upon God There's nothing else and he started saying swear upon Satan And that's when he started raping her um You know eventually uh after he left The little boy had managed to free himself And sakina directed him to go to a neighbor's house and and get help um And when the police The Los Angeles County Sheriff had jurisdiction Because Ramirez was doing these things all through LA County You know, and obviously sheriff's office is Countywide jurisdiction and unlike here Where uh Co County sheriffs are are kind of the first and foremost of court security and stuff, but

18:33Oedda Agiar feel Los Angeles LA County Sheriff's homicide is a big deal They they do a lot of Direct law enforcement activity at operational level and things Um LA County sheriff was a guy named Sherman block And he'd suspected for the proceeding year As Ramirez became an active serial murderer that it was one man doing this That it was a serial killer and that there was an occult motivation And he decided it was finally time Now that eight or ten people had been murdered The public had to be aware of what was happening So he called He called a press conference Um Any he disclosed as much

19:33You know And He told people that without resorting the panic measures they needed to be aware that This is a countywide threat You're not safer than your homes And uh the victim profile is all over the It's all over the board You know again Overwhelmingly serial killers target Vulnerable people You know prostitutes transians homeless people The motive is almost always Sexyly sadistic and hedonic It's basically unheard of for a lone man to break into homes and have fluent areas And slaughter everybody Well uh Forcing the victims to participate

20:36And in some sort of a cult coded ritual behavior You know that's like something out of a bad horror movie or something You know um But also it's incredibly brazen You know and okay Ramirez was a good thief but It's incredible he was able to get away with this for so long His luck all sort of collapsed at once Which led to his arrest But even in the low tech eighties It was unheard of or something to get away with this okay And as Ramirez himself it's has to do And I'll get into Ramirez's own statements, but we're not there yet Ramirez had become an active worshipper of Satan and he believed that Satan and other entities possibly that Of whom he'd become a familiar or protecting him from

21:38Arrest and prosecution And he believed that he had no choice in committing these acts Um he admitted he liked doing them And he liked killing people and he found it exciting and even sexually gratifying But he believed he was being he believed that Satan was demanding that he he proffered blood sacrifices And because of the Incessible lust for this sort of occult bloodlating Um these This entity or the devil itself You know Ramirez was being protected by supernatural forces All right, so sorry about that slight interruption So you may notice a brief break in the train if thought that's due to the real world allotted together seemless as I can Thomas I'll throw it back to you Yeah, for sure now to be clear for context I

22:39I really as I kind of began this narrative and media risk Because That's important for context because this is when Angelinos and and the world and this made international news. It became aware of The night stocker as a satanic serial murder Um Since tenix serial murder The first Homicides attributed to the night stocker is on June 28th 1984 So almost a year prior Jenny vincau who's an elderly woman she was 79 and Glassel Park, Los Angeles She'd been Attached while sleeping and nearly decapitated Eventually Ramirez's fingerprint was found a mesh screen that he'd removed the gain access to an open window

23:41He hadn't known that a fingerprint could be lifted off of that kind of screen. He disclosed later Um, not to be clear Ramirez and burglarizing houses for years by this point and he Never harmed let alone murdered anybody He very suddenly escalated to Uh, a very savage kind of homicide And an elderly alone elderly woman obviously is a You know a far easier target than um a younger person let alone and then entire family It it seems pretty clear that Acting upon some compulsion that he believed to be directing His actions He wasn't yet comfortable With What he believed uh was required to satisfy

24:43You know All records and aspects of This uh macabre Indevirt Um the subsequent attacks March 17th 85 now notice too. There was a Law of several months Um He attacked a 20 year old 22 year old woman outside her home He shot her in the face with a 22 Um after pulling her into her garage Um she managed to survive doing only to um the fact that uh the round and ricocheted Off uh her keys That she'd been a holding up as she like lifted her hands in a defensive posture Um Ramirez thought she was dead so he fled the scene Um her roommate Uh Dale okazaki heard the gunshot

25:46Um Ramirez realized somebody was in the house who witnessed the shooting Um Ramirez silently entered the house and when she peeked her head up he shot her and killed her instantly Um Within an hour of this attack Ramirez assaulted another Asian woman Veronica you and moderate park He shot her twice with the same 22 And she was pronounced dead on arrival Um Two days later or ten days later on the 27th forgive me Ramirez entered another home. He burglarized it earlier Um He attacked a 64 year old man who lived there and his younger wife was 44 Um He murdered the man Um He then took to attack Maxine Zazara the wife 44 years old

26:49Um He assaulted her sexually Tortured her and then murdered her He then carved and inverted cross into her chest with a carving knife that he found in um The The kitchen He then attempted a necrophilic act with her body and Ramirez said that he was so high in cocaine And he was so sort of shook up and By the the entire experience that he he couldn't get excited again um Now So this man and Bayesley went from zero Went from being a an addict home invader um burglar To murdering an elderly woman and then Undertaking these frenzy to rampages with multiple victims in one day

27:52Then he's entering homes, you know Subsequently when deliberately hot prowling homes when people are are present He's committing sexual assaults He's trying to work up the nerve to carry out necrophilic acts He's uh marking The victims with the satanic iconography This is insane and this doesn't have any precedence like that pattern of variables And this is a very gruesome subject mayor um Just be aware of that. He gets worse. Okay, if if it's if you find this kind of The thing upsetting it you probably should um Recuse yourself from this episode um It was uh The March 27th 19 to the five murders murders of the zizaras

28:52Ramirez's sneakers he liked abvious sneakers and um He left a footprint in the flower bed And uh that really became the only evidentiary indicator that the police had from then on And it was also after the March 27th incident the police determined a serial killer was responsible but again Contrary to the narrative of satanic panic This information was deliberately Suppressed and there was no mention of the ritual aspects And this is important because again it contradicts the narrative which has become the lead dominant narrative May 14th 1985 uh remeber is attacked another couple in Monterrey park once again he used the 22 Calder pistol um In this case a man six-it-traumatic build doi

29:54He reached for his own personal defense weapon um remeber has got to drop on him and shot him in the face um He then entered uh The white's uh room these people had separate bedrooms 36 real lily and doi He uh restrainder with bondage thumb cuffs And uh repeatedly raped her She later died of her injuries. This was a particularly savage attack I speculated remeber was enraged at the fact that Godoyed tried to draw on him and fought back um The uh Two weeks later May 29th and 85 remeber is stole yet another car he drove them in rovia uh He entered the house at two elderly women mavel and mavel

30:56mavel and florins netty laying mavel was 83 netty was 81 He attacked her with a hammer that he found in the home Then uh He bound and bludgeoned them Then he exposed an electrical cord to be in to shock them He then raped netty laying Now again, this is in the escalation So this guy He admitted to having trouble I don't want to sound flippant or gross He admitted to having trouble performing sexually when he wanted to assault people in the past now After a homicidal rampage with a hammer He's got no problem performing to rape a woman in her 80s

31:58Something There there was something about this that Was driving his frenzy And uh the torture by electric shock Is a new aspect After he raped laying He took a lipstick that he found On the druster And uh he drew a pentagram on the woman's thigh And then he drew stitanic iconography all over the walls with the same lipstick um The women were Discovered alive but comatose Days later and they died in the hospital um The very next day after The assault on these two elderly females Ramirez drove the same stolen car

32:58um And he Invaded in another home This time of a 40-year-old woman who had an 11-year-old son um He repeatedly raped Carol Kyle He bound her son with the same bodied style thumb cuffs Ransack the house And explica be then released the boy um And he threatened uh He threatened Carol Kyle By saying If you look at me, I'll cut your eyes out and Unfortunately that became A heart of a jar of 40 started doing later And this is that this is a theme with Ramirez to

33:59Ramirez loved rock and roll He his favorite band was acdc He also loved Judas Priest And he liked Billy Idol And the Billy Idol song Eyes Without a Face And the film that is based on He had a weird fixation with that movie and that gem um And of course uh The acdc saw a night prowler became his jam Like he acknowledged that He considered that to be his song And uh when he got dubbed the night stalker independently by media Like he believed that that was a sign as well um You know and uh Inexplicably too he let Carol Kyle live He didn't just release her son After he was done ran taking the house and people he raping her he just left

34:59um Well once again, we just suggestive of a belief in You know, but command element guiding his activities And of course that element Being a An intelligence of a of a nonhuman and supernatural character Days later June 2nd Ramirez uh Drobe and under stolen car to Arcadia He entered the home of another elderly woman, Mary Louise Cannon uh He didn't sexually assault her He came upon her sleeping he bludgeoned her with a lamp That stabbed her to death uh With a tenage butcher knife um And then he disemembered her post mortem Three nights later he broke into a home in Ciro Madre

36:03He beat 16 year old Whitney Bennett with a tire iron while she was sleeping Ramirez searched for a knife in the kitchen And when he couldn't uh find a knife He started strangling Whitney with a telephone cord Ramirez stated that as he was strangling her He said electrical sparks started emanating from the cord And then his victim suddenly drew breath Ramirez said at that moment Jesus Christ had intervened to save her And he said he ran from the house Because it was a sign from God um Bennett survived the attack but had no real memory of what had happened Um Just have the July 4th weekend Ramirez burglarized in another home uh in Monterey Park um

37:04He beat and stomped her so severely that An aviast sneaker shoe print was left on her face Um and this was introduced at trial years later um Ramirez then uh Assaulted and uh Burlarized and Terrorized a woman named Sophie Dickman Who's home he'd actually burglarized before um And inexplicably he spared her um Two weeks later in July 28th Ramirez purchased the machete and sharpened it to a fine edge Won't just something you'd never done before and uh He subsequently invaded the home of 66-year-old

38:07Leeland Needing And her husband Maxson needing This was almost a commandos style assault He literally ran into the bedroom and he hacked them to pieces with the machete Um The coup d'grah he shot them in the head with the 22 but they They were already gone And then an apparently frenzied state he further Chopped the bodies up post mortem with the machete Um rob the house that valuables Defense the stolen goods they had substantial amount of jewelry the the meetings did And this was another bit of evidence that was introduced against them um He uh Then attacked a a couple in Sun Valley um The covenoth family

39:09What believer lotion 33-year-old Chiron covenoth Was shot in the head instantly. He was the man of the house um The wife uh Was then raped some kid covenoth She was 32 as old his rape repeatedly Um Drag her on the house As he was raping her he forced her to say that she loves Satan Over and over again Um August 6th Remira has joked in Northridge Broken to the home of a 30-year-old man and Chris Peterson who he shared with his wife Virginia. She was 27 He shot Chris in the neck Um Chris fought back despite uh being shot and uh Remira's fled when it became uh

40:14Clear that uh the noise was likely to alert Neighbors who's and most of these homes too. There was neighbors when immediate proximity if you know uh If you know suburban Los Angeles you know what i mean. You know this um these were not remote houses You know with the adding to the brazenness of it um And this sheriff block You know after the After the uh The murder that I began this kind of horrible litany with When he called his press conference um He made the terrorist announcement called we have a serial killer in Los Angeles county But that was really it he held back any details about the satanic or occult aspects and

41:15You know again, we're so strange about this in LA county in those days. That's really when this sort of psychological profiling Was uh at the peak of its uh Sort of credibility within the law enforcement community I think John Douglas himself was actually consulted on this and You know he He was really a driving engine behind behavioral science and chronicle and Like I said, I think Douglas is an idiot But he did make the point which is correct that this was basically unprecedented. There was no discernible patterns Any similarities that did exist were piecemeal and only applied to a portion of the the tech profile He didn't play any favorites. There was no favorite kind of victim Like I said, he did seem to have a sexual preference for Asian women and that becomes significant owing to remeirizes on troubled background and The psychological aspects that constituted his

42:17Compulsive worldview um You know his victims are at different ages He murdered both men and women young and old He preyed on people at least 11 different suburbs um You know, and there were times where he'd sexually assault and murder of children but he You know the old he'd sexually assault anybody except the adult men it seems uh He'd shoot people he'd hack them with machetes he'd stab them with knives He'd attack them with bats. He'd beat them and stop them to death the only The only constant was the satanic ritual aspects and the sacrificial aspects and the iconography and the things he said to people and the way he demanded they participate in these things

43:21now Who was Richard Ramirez? Ramirez was from El Paso. He wasn't the native angelino His mom worked in a factory His dad had been a cop In Mexico and he worked on the railroad in El Paso and He grew up very poor but His peers and his family knew him as Ricky and he was a devout Catholic El Cavario Catholic Church uh Was where he attended mass You know and he he never missed mass and His mother was known to be very devout very involved in the church um The only indicator of an early interest in a cult You know a cultism

44:24When Ramirez was arrested Investigator stood out some of his childhood friends and uh a then adult Friend of Ramirez's from El Paso named Tom Ramos He said that during a Bible study uh curriculum That he and Ricky became engaged with you know around a time they were going through confirmation He said that Ramirez became very concerned about Satan You know He said it wasn't so much a fascination as it was some sort of fear. You know Satan was somehow Reaching out to him spiritually to try and captivate him and somehow in some way Um, he he can fight her to Tom Ramos that He he he was trying to live as a Christian and he desperately wanted to But there's something more level and was trying to prevent him from doing that um and

45:32Ramirez uh This isn't some slam on Catholics, but a lot of Catholics don't spend a lot of time with scripture apparently Ramirez is church El Cavario They very much had a scriptural curriculum and Ramirez knew the Bible very well He wasn't what we'd call a particularly literate guy he didn't sit around reading, but he knew the Bible And he took it seriously Okay and apparently After this Bible study was well underway and he can fight into his friend its concerns about It becoming possessed You started going to the library and started reading about Satan and the occult And he speculated about the ways in which Satan would try to possess people And um You know he said that he was trying to understand why Satan would do the things that he did or it did You know Ramos said that Ramirez

46:32We ask him about whether Satan's rebellion could be Rationalized and maybe if he came to empathize with it and understand it Satan would leave him alone You know and uh Ram was said he had no how to respond to these things You know, but he he said this wasn't an affectation. This was something You see said young Richard Ramirez was really really frightened You know and uh not not an old violent You know he said he was sad a lot Later in adolescence he started stealing but In nobody Related in the indication of violence or being afraid of him or any or any kind of sadistic tenants And he liked animals apparently. He was always nice to animals. You know, so I mean that's another thing like there's not This trifecta supposedly you have you know, satisms towards animals and things along with I think you know Pyromaniac And um

47:33Psychosexual dysfunction like those things weren't present really in life So what do you make and maybe this is this goes down to our definition of Early right when we're talking about but wasn't Ramirez employed at a hotel where he Is alleged to have molested several children and was caught in the act of rape Uh, yeah, rape I guess where he was and beaten I mean within the end of his life by the victim's husband which you know fair enough Uh, yeah, it was the prosecution He was never charged but obviously we might be skipping ahead there. I Yeah, no, I'll get to that. That's relevant. That's what he was a teenager You know, and that's that I believe that that's why he fled to LA You've never clear on that but he said that he was no longer Welcome around around El Paso And yeah, he very Ramirez is first victim too and this didn't come out until the 2000s

48:34It didn't come out until I believe after Ramirez died We were as died of a cancer in in prison um and uh Apparently uh This little Asian girl had been raped and murdered in 1984 before the first nice stalker killing does his first known mervick I'm be out very suddenly in his late teens Ramirez when he was in the employee this hotel. It's kind of like a maintenance man he uh Use the master key to enter a woman's room. I think while she was showering and he tried to sexually assault her And yeah her husband came in before He completely act and and like beat the hell out of him and yeah, it for whatever reason he wasn't I think these people the victims were on vacation. They weren't particularly interested in in in in proffering evidence You know a trial But it seems odd that he wasn't charged and um

49:34But yeah that seems to be when Figured to be a literally he got to double in him and then fled oh past oh and You know once once you became a An evil cocaine addict it is deviant seems to Know no bounds but uh Well, and I don't want to interrupt because there are more details about his childhood in particular that are very relevant uh particularly as regards Both of his his uncles uh, yeah, we're obviously hyper relevant. Sorry. I just wanted to bring that up because I didn't know if Where we were in the story, but oh no, it's the story fine. I'm hopping around a bit because It It presents some more um Prognizable narrative I think but Um Remira's when he was finally arrested um He was arrested by LAPD because he was recognized on the street in east LA

50:40After he was identified as The chief suspect and it is picture ended up being splashed on the media and I'll get to the ex. It's free dramatic But he was arrested by LAPD not the sheriff's And uh he's at the Holland Bank Division station um And he started talking to the police before they even Mirandaize them Detective George Thomas who was guarding him You know within Less than an hour of of of being Colored apparently said the detective Thomas I did it You guys got me I'm the night stalker and then several minutes later Remira's broke down crying Said he was sorry and he started begging the officers to kill him You know, he said uh I did it you know that I'm a killer give me your gun. I'll take care of myself

51:44You know you should give me your gun. I'm a killer. I want you electric chair. They should have shot me You guys should have shot me. I deserve to die You know, this was going on and on but then hours later he was rambling about being possessed In saying he had no control of reception because he was state and slave and then he was uh Acting arrogantly Speaking in different voices at one point. He got to he told Thomas you think I'm crazy, but you don't know Satan You know, and then Thomas said he he started laughing and seeing him with giddy You know, it's it's like moment to moment his affect was Vassilating between this kind of horrified repentance and pathetic, you know Suicide lightiation and this kind of arrogant provile you know

52:45Jim Ellis who was uh when Sheriff's homicide finally showed up Obviously, you know, they they wanted To participate in in this investigation because I mean it was it was in their case um He said that when he started interrogating Ramirez Ramirez said quote I love to kill people. I love to watch them die I would shoot them in their head and they would wiggle and sperm all over the place and then just stop Sometimes when you cut people within knife Their faces turn real white. I love it. I love all that what You know, it's uh Said depending three different officers Within hours or days of each other interrogating the man It's like they were talking to totally different people You know um I mean the whole thing is incredibly strange if you've read a lot of I mean people say strange things especially when they're facing

53:48Capital charges Okay, but this is not This isn't just dysfunctional criminal You know sensibilities on display you know and um Despite what Is some of these tabloid types reported Ramirez wasn't affiliated with Satan as a mental past though I mean beyond what it there was this ongoing concern and psychiatric issues that we talked about but He wasn't a member of a cult in El Paso or some satanic group um You know in this uh They're in El Paso. I mean don't give me wrong. I mean all through the southwest when you get into The Mexican communities in border country. There's There's indio religious customs and practices that they're they're they're very pagan uh But who had yes stuff you know uh

54:50And uh and which craft There's a lot of Mexicans who are into that comparatively I mean who don't have any interest in in Satanism and in fact uh What would you say in in very adversarial terms, you know um so I think that I think some people just made a good faith mistake and trying to assess Some of these influences on on yom or mirror as without really understanding the nuances they're in but they're There was no evidence of satanic cult activity or or or coagulant spiriters like in in a son of sam that situation That could be connected to Ramirez in El Paso um And also to be clear um Ramirez's family loved them You know, uh, you had a troll relationship with his dad way. I guess it was um a very hard man who was an alcoholic

55:55but uh This kind of local Hero in in the El Paso Mexican American community again in Manuel, but asa He used this 30 year old attorney and uh You know, he'd open up a practice in El Paso and he defended local People and you know when when they were brought up on very serious charges At a lot of time he do a pro bono um So Ramirez's parents contacted him He came to visit Ramirez in prison um Ramirez had been assigned a public defender um The guy named adashic who uh Which is California especially in those days the way did things was the peculiar to say the least And i believe Ramirez's trial before the OJ trial was the most expensive trial in in u.s history It surpassed the

56:56Manson trial Which is absurd and like i said it took years for him to um Get the trial even but This guy at dashic is from what i can tell unless i pulled the Data on the wrong man, but it's kind of unusual surname He seemed to mostly be in a pellet attorney. He was young. I mean, this is a capital murder case It seemed an odd i'm not suggesting the guy was not cobbin or anything like that I don't know his relative seeing this But it's a weird move Yeah, exactly so that was one of the reasons why baza was contacted by Ramirez's mom and dad Was because i mean not just because he was a mexican and a local guy but you know he he'd had experience with uh With homicide trials and texas no less and texas texas exx gets a lot of people but uh But as i ultimately realized uh, you know, he's he talked to the old fast little her old post

57:57Excensively and he said look he's like a Ramirez family. I know money. He's like i was fine with it You know, but he's like and his parents couldn't afford to come to Los Angeles, but he's like i could You know, he's like i realize ultimately i couldn't take Richard's case because he's like it I would have had to devote years to this and i would have had to shut her my practice and i'll pass So but he's like i wanted to visit him. I wanted to let him know his parents are pulling for him and i'll do anything i can to assist um What But asa relayed He said when he met Ramirez He said Ramirez seemed very solemn. He said he was at first you forked to see him But then he was adamant that he wasn't culpable for this you know not enough. I'm innocent um You know the flesh and responsibility Ramirez was essentially telling him that He was under the control of emilevelance Entity and that

58:59He had forfeited His agency or it had been overcome in some way but uh You know, he said and m. Ijubaraza obviously he had some sympathy for the man But he wasn't his clients in formal terms You know the way he He described Ramirez as being depressed, dejected, resigned, you know see it again this is yet another Description of the man that is totally at odds with you know three or four proceeding other descriptions It all seemed like they're describing totally different people and uh That tracks with what nickelist Shrek relayed um about Ramirez genuinely seeming to be a demoniac whether you believe that that was just the particular Way in which his mental illness manifest in terms of his affect and things or if you believe that he was

1:00:07Under the control and domination of of emilevelant entity. I mean I You can approach that a couple of different ways, but Everybody who had any sort of contact with this man And When he was in custody Relays something to that effect Okay, um You know in uh The uh Ramirez also uh He was um He was very very upset that he was housed he was in the high power tank initially In the county lockup and then he was sequestered in a holding cell outside the courtroom He wasn't even present during a rainman. He was there was a speaker and a microphone wired into his cell This was done for his own protection

1:01:09um But Ramirez he's done reasonably afraid of being alone um And then rapidly his affect change once again when uh He did finally have uh When he when he finally was permitted to be physically present um In court during the proceedings The first thing he did was uh He'd scrolled or carved a pentagram in his hand And he flashed it uh To the photographers and and to the uh Spectators And so they're in this photo Yeah, exactly and it's probably that one Yep, that is yeah that that's that's exactly what it is so after that too the the court was even less inclined uh Uh, uh, allowing to You know be present physically in open court I mean, that's a weird product. Go ahead

1:02:09But this is just something I want to say to further that point about the the many personalities of Richard Ramirez uh The Shrek Interview you sent me uh, which is him and some random goth lady Yeah, it's a really fascinating interview uh because he talks about the the friendship that the two of them built And that's one of the things that he mentioned is that you know Shrek was Due to his you involvement in the music scene He and his wife decided to sort of get out of dodge and they left America for a while in the uh in the early 90s And so he went from being in very close contact to him to you've gone and when he came back He said that Ramirez went from being uh To say he's odd is probably an understatement, but a bright enough guy like someone who could write You know competent letters uh One of the things that comes up and it's hard to say how much of this is genuine or not is Ramirez wondering

1:03:09Sort of casting his actions and comparing and contrast them to the Vietnam war Which is something that will come up when we talk about his uncle in particular uh But so basically saying you know how why am I in prison when you know state sanctioned killers go free But you know he could write to at least a certain level enough to express that idea When they came back it was almost like he was catatonic He didn't speak they described him almost as stupid Yeah, he became he became literally retarded And now granted he died of lymphoma And when you get into your 40s and 50s your memory kind of goes I see that in myself But you know you don't become unintelligence and Ramirez went from Being kind of a model prisoner. He started like exposing himself to female guards It's like he couldn't Yeah, it's it's like whatever Had been animating him just like left. I think Shrek described him as as like a husk almost

1:04:13You know like a like a shell and I mean I will say You know, I quoted Ramirez in the first steel storm novella and like people got a set of Some of them and um I talked to niko clout a lot about Ramirez. I just reached out to niko the other day He's seen him probing since for Halloween and he said he'd be willing to appear on the pod again. So just am report nothing but um you know Niko's a Frenchman and uh He speaks kind of abstractly and he's very intelligent. He doesn't have a great command of English So I think some stuff is sort of lost in translation, but um one thing uh One thing niko niko was adamant that I'll bring this back. I have a point here

1:05:14Niko was adamant to talking to me that he wasn't crazy You know, and he's like I had to put on effects and I had to put on airs and and effects certain states of mind in in order to uh, you know And in order to defend myself in court You know, and he's like I don't have delusions or anything, but he's like ever since the time I was a small child He's like I could I felt like I'm a level in presence was communicating with me you know and uh He's like when I started killing people It's like there's this unbearable tension That would build up and then when I'd complete the act it it went away and it was it was so cathartic and wonderful you know and uh He said that as he got older and especially when he was in prison in his words He said you know, I learned a channel. He thinks constructively so I didn't hurt people anymore But he's like I also just learned to kind of abide having almost an itch I can never scratch

1:06:18And he's like I still feel some sort of presence that is uh Enveloping my inner life, you know, he's like I've just I've learned to manage it and uh I Believe him that I believe that that's what he experienced and Niko was a middle-class Frenchman who was a highly intelligent guy Okay, like a poor Mexican kid like Ramirez I think would have a lot of difficulty negotiating something like that And I'm not trying to make a victim out of this guy who did like horrible horrible things to people Like Ramirez was an incredibly evil person and even if he was in fact Influenced and dominion of of a malevolent presence how you Manage that admittedly horrible situation

1:07:20Is up to you as as a as a as a human moral agents So I'm not excusing him But I do believe this is a real phenomenon and um I believe and I I I don't want to make this personal, but uh I believe one of the reasons my Younger brother did what he did is because he started having compulsions to hurt people And uh, he wasn't gonna allow it to happen you know um And uh So this is something that needs to be taken seriously, okay? It's not It's not it's not it's not just a academic, you know, it's it's a real phenomenon and whether you attributed to brain chemistry or morphological aspects of of the human brain or

1:08:22So I'm sort of metaphysical phenomena. I mean, I'm not telling anybody how they should approach it The this thing would be dismissive of it and say well, he's lying We're trying to mitigate responsibility or that's a bunch of high-faluting horse shit You know that You're not really addressing the human condition and the root causes of these things and that's just sort of a It's just sort of a dummy take on it um You know, uh But yeah, I It was very telling when when Shrek pointed that out that it's It's like Ramirez became sort of hollowed out in a husk and whatever was animating him However, my level and a horrible and sickening that may have been it's like it was gone and there was like nothing left but Yeah, to your point um Ramirez is uh Because again, he he had a trouble ratio of this father apparently was was really something of a bully

1:09:24He didn't beat him mercilessly or anything, but He was uh, well the the infant this case of course is uh whenever Richard acted up his dad would Tie him out in the graveyard. Yeah, uh like just to a tombstone or to a cruise That's a terrorism described yeah, yeah, so he was obvious to this guy I wasn't suggesting otherwise it as meant there wasn't There wasn't physical abuse or rising the level of torture or sexual abuse or something like that, but The Richard became totally bonded to it is his primary sort of male mentor and influence was his cousin Mike You know and uh Mike like a lot of Like like a lot of tough Spanish guys from border country, you know, he gravitated towards the military And Mike went to Vietnam and he got selected for special forces And was in heavy action and when Mike got back stateside He uh Had a collection of Polaroids

1:10:27That uh frankly a lot of guys came back with I I knew all their guys who Showed me their Polaroid collection and it was Nothing this severe in terms of what it depicted but Mike Would show him photographs of his double veteran status and in in NUM A double veteran was a guy who had his way with the vietcong woman and then murdered her and Apparently Mike became something of a serial killer in Vietnam He'd show off a photographs of severed heads of The victims of these double veteran Acts Where mirrors became fictrisher became fixated on bondage And uh a lot of these photos depicted Vietnamese women in various states of uh

1:11:29bondage You know either because they were actual literal vehicle on prisoners or because They were prostitutes or they were just village women that Mike had decided to victimize but uh this uh fixation on bondage and and this attraction to Asian females and um Some of the correspondence that other people have had with her mirrors Like Merle Allen like you told Merle he's like You know, we we can't have like real pornography here, but like send me pictures of Asian women if you can You know and uh One of the reasons why It disturbs me so bad That youngsters are exposed to all kinds of really really deviant pornography is because uh I don't think people realize that it really warps especially guys might women have more

1:12:33Psych defense mechanism comes to sex because that's coded by nature for obvious reasons Young guys can be really really warps sexually by what they're exposed to early on You know just by You know by by pornographic stimulus Of the sort that's somewhat mainstream even if it's you know violent and fetishistic You know, like I don't want to get off on this topic. I think it's fair to say Neither you nor I are are kind of pro-collecting social conservatives. No Like there's not we're not like James Dobson types uh, but I will say uh There's a very interesting connection between the Effectively the effects of the drug ketamine Which is very similar to a sort of therapy. I can't remember exactly what it's called, but it's basically you can

1:13:35Uh bridge connections between the left half of your brain by stimulating rapid eye movement is relatively popular therapy for uh for PTSD for anxiety disorders and then also the phenomenon of uh, like so-called binaural beats which is a auditory way to simulate the same thing now You see a lot of this and kind of like bizarre skitsoids, you know people who are trying to produce changes physically by this technology But it can produce a real change in how you're thinking uh This is used in several bizarre shot-unnorsive pornography uh, tzissy hip-nose one which is highly linked to Basically truning out. So quite literally like even if you take it to just be that there are people producing pornography using uh Medical techniques designed to rewire your brain to make you trans This is not like tinfoil hat stuff. This is something you can find almost anywhere

1:14:39And the reason I say that is just to to say like for whatever the unintentional way in which linking early sexual development and like pornography can screw up your life There are people trying to do it deliberately And so when we say stuff like this thomas and you not have mentioned it before Don't take this as like Moral handering. It's like there's an immense amount of data on the ability of this sort of stuff to Turn you into a lunatic Uh, and actually maybe this is worth talking about Just as a brief aside because I really was probably coming up to time on our first episode on remurage but I believe it was uh, was it gacy or Who talked to uh, it's funny. I mentioned him Uh, but the focus on the family guy Uh, I think it was I think it was Ted Bundy. It was Ted Bundy. Yeah Yeah And that was something he blamed was exposure to pornography

1:15:40Shortly before his death. Do you think there's do you think that that was legitimate or just a way to Oh, no, I think I think it was and it's Especially in his case like Ted Bundy I mean he had other problems and he had this bizarre upbringing and the woman he thought was his uh big sister was his mom Yeah, all kinds of really warped stuff, but he If you look at what Bundy did It's exactly the kind of stuff that would have been Ideations born of pornographic stimulus and fantasies from the kinds of women he targeted To the sonore was he forced them into and You know highly sexualized and like an ideal sense and even um Like Lawrence Bittaker Who was of our family despicable human being but He was fairly candid to the point that it's revolting about what his motives were

1:16:44And he talked all day about oh yeah like when I was in prison sort of you know because Bittaker for the time he was like 16 until he was like 40 you like spend more time in prison than Than uh in the free world he talked about like sitting around like reading corno's and like devising stuff you wanted to try You know, I mean like literally and uh You know in the case of uh In the case of uh Ramirez yeah, you can So you got this like young guy and um He's he Ramirez he It's it became clear and shred dogs with his two like Ramirez never read into my condo with any females He wasn't paying you know like girls he got high with He like they just sex of him for for for for for crack um or uh They were hookers he'd pick up when he was like you know horny But so he you got this guy who's got trouble relating to females normally anyway

1:17:46and um his idea of Of sexual catharsis is uh he's like murder photos like bound be it them easy women like that's a part I'm not saying every guy who has a worked up ring is gonna is gonna go Come in violence that you know like against females or otherwise But somebody who's susceptible that kind of thing. I mean that that is a catastrophic effect under my absolutely And I mean the point again again to people you know in in 2006 When uh Israel uh went to war with the Hamas They occupied Ramallah first thing they did was um take over the tv station And what do they do they started broadcasting hardcore pornography 24-7 You know like why it if porn is innocuous. I mean why why would they do that? You know um Yeah, part of it is you know That's a big no-no in in a in a SUNY majority culture, but that's not

1:18:47Really it You know you're doing that because the I mean, it's not only the violates taboos that could have just played ads for like a baconator Yeah, no exactly. You know, I mean or they could have just broadcast like sacrilegious stuff like over you know the radio or something You know probably that it was very much deliberate that um disturbed the It's psychological environment All right Thomas welcome back to the jayburn show. How you doing then and well. Thanks for hosting me Yeah, man, I uh it's been a while since you and I have recorded at least on my show It seems like we've spent a lot of time talking both in person in Portland and then you know the number of other recordings But nonetheless happy to be back So we're going to continue our deep dive into Richard Ramirez Uh, this is your area of expertise. So I'll just let you go Yeah, there's There's some interesting things in the zeitgeist. I mean some of which I covered in the first episode

1:19:50You know obviously matters waiting the spiritual warfare and things and uh and add a vistic resurgence of You can't only pagan belief structures. Okay. I mean that I think that goes without saying I don't know some people You do the metaphysical aspect of these things as mumbled jumbo, but The perception was what I said it was even if people don't accept the You know um any kind of supernatural aspect to it But there was something else that was uh underway I look at Ramirez as uh, I mean obviously His rampage was particularly horrible It was especially punctuated. It was particularly disruptive of people's lives and of you know Los Angeles uh The day-to-day of LA culture as it stood you know in nineteen eighty forty-five

1:20:54But also it was it was part of this pastiche of violent events um Really the preceding fifteen years That I think at a common nexus of causation You know first and foremost among those things would be the zodiac murders Which I don't want to spend off into a discussion of that. I mean we can in a later episode if you want the sub-law to I think it'd be worth discussing but Among other things uh The zodiac was very much You know um a cult motivated in terms of his worldview There was a particularly horrible overtly racially motivated murder spree By the subset of uh the nation of Islam. This is probably faded That's the zebra murders sir the zebra murders and Then there was this fact for the nation of Islam. They called themselves five percenters

1:21:56loosely uh and like big deed hit me to the lure of all this stuff. Okay The five percenters the reason why they chose that branding as they said that they're the five percent of black man or truly enlightened and They had this apocalyptic understanding of race war and uh They they basically viewed their mission as To kill as many white people as possible as some kind of catalyzing element you know and then um There was the reaction from law enforcement and from white society will lead to this kind of general uprising of of colored people and blacks being You know the first man and being lust chosen to You know

1:22:57Lead the first nations against the oppressor will become this you know leadership cadre You know whose mandate has been sanctified in blood And the sacrifice of the white devil Okay, now to be clear like mainstream and oh why guys don't think this way like whatever they're Whether it's eccentricities are Like I know in a way guys what got respect for they're they're not I mean and and they got The strongly racially coded like I am but they they don't want to go out and murder white people or something all that to be clear These guys absolutely did want to do that and they did do that and this uh This caused genuine terror in the Bay Area You know when they killed I think they murdered 15 people eight of their victims survived One poor lady was paralyzed a lot of their victims were raped one woman was practically decapitated with a machete

1:24:01It's it's more horrible than even the most learned imagining is okay and This was going on at the same time as as the zodiacs a rampage and a lot of Not state actor violent some of which was funded by the Warsaw Pact I mean this was a mess okay, so San Francisco pd Was doing everything he could to suppress knowledge of what was underway but When one of these guys term state evidence Because he realized he was into deep and apparently had something of a conscience You know he Four of his rampies got arrested a couple of men it up on death row The a couple others ended up serving life without parole but as he as he explicated what the ideology was of this particular cell Who call themselves the death angels? it was uh It was like something from the darkest Africa okay, uh, I'm not being funny your punitive

1:25:06I mean that's this was some savage shit You know of the of the sort that you wouldn't think Would be possible in the 1970s and in modern society You know, let it be clear it was uh It was there was something antivistic and primitive and and and and totally sang when you're about it It wasn't just guys saying You know, okay We we want to pursue attention strategy to cause a race world to kill white people you know it was uh It was um You know, it was um it was primitive in its coding but This caused a lot of to bring it back This shattered a lot of assumptions about what motivates people to murder strangers, you know, and obviously this was also All these things were happening at the same time as the serial murder epidemic and the violence of the epidemic I'm sorry Excuse me um, I'm having a little bit of a respiratory issue so forgive me for coughing um

1:26:11but uh Really from the the post world or two era Until the mid-delay 80s What was the majority consensus or what was the academic and medical consensus on On a stranger homicide and in serial murder It derived from the research of the psychiatrist named hervie clecly He wrote a book that was first published in 1941 called the mask of sanity I always found that to be a poignant title uh, it's an interesting book but the title is way more evocative than the actual substance but That's that was that was kind of the seminal clinical description of psychopathy in the 20th century and The basic description that clecly Presented is it a psychopathic person outwardly. He's a perfect mimic of a normally functioning human

1:27:15You know generally he has a job He's presented as well as anybody else um But what this but this is literally a mask that hides an internal chaos Because his inner life is totally fractured You know and uh despite Him seeming to be an integrated and even intelligent or charming person Always doing is is mimicking What he sees those around him doing and an affected capacity You know uh and if one were to penetrate The subconscious and the inner life of One such subject they'd realize uh that there's nothing there You know um There's some sort of animal instinct and insatiable appetite for violins usually sexually coded

1:28:15And sexually sadistic violence But there isn't even a true human personality there You know it's some sort of cunning intelligence That serves uh what amounts to uh A sort of biological engine of violent impulses and A constant need for hedonic gratification Which is pretty frightening and i don't think that that's Totally inaccurate but You know this conceptualization very much uh This this this very much became somewhat discredited When the violence epidemic kicked off Because if a norther reason a lot of these people who are doing extremely violent things and targeting strangers They didn't fit this description They didn't fit this diagnostic criteria

1:29:16And that includes Richard Ramirez Richard Ramirez lactic conscience there was something Unnoly warped about his inner life But uh He did in fact possess all the characteristics um A modular mind and personality You know and uh This is one of the things that really conflicted with Likeway's model um Collectly attached the modularity and and the the the faculty psychology view of mind as well as freedom of the sum and freedom of the garbage but The kind of the faculty psychology viewpoint Actually had and has some merit You know whatever whatever this whoever the subject matter or the the population under discussion and research um Collectly is a big critique of faculty psychology which is now known as modularity of mind and generally

1:30:20um That perspective argues that things like intelligence and moral consciousness and emotions These aren't separate parts of the brain um But uh are really just you know the way Diagnostitions conceptualized things Oh, I'm doing an ability to truly Identify who what the experience of consciousness is okay This gets a little bit abstract but uh basically Collectly wasn't rejecting this outright In all circumstances But he was saying is applied to the psychopath that's particularly misguided You know and beyond that attempting to understand the human mind as uh not truly monadic but A sort of aggregation of discrete components that

1:31:21Reflect and diviguated Functions you know the way one modern the way one might uh look at you know that they just have the circulatory system is particularly misguided and uh Uh Collectly also and I find this interesting considering he was writing in the 1940s He said that there's a but and I do agree with this qualified leave Is sociological critique Of Then modern life He said that modern life doesn't serve human needs so it gives rise to a counter culture tendency Even within people who aren't necessarily prone to oppositional defiance And he said that what this does is that it generates a romanticized anti-hero archetype In the public mind and Coupled with that the deterioration of empathy

1:32:22You know owing to the pace and character and dysfunction of modern living this uh fees predatory instincts and psychosexual pathology in a kind of perfect storm of uh anti-hero longing for how to structure the self and absence of Other meaningful Identitarian criteria that one can take on So the war of all against all Becomes a hedonic sort of hunt of every man seeking prey for he done at gratification You know in figurative terms. This is what it And a high-tech and hyper competitive Sociological structure, but it then becomes quite literal and I don't think that's entirely wrong okay but

1:33:23When people like Richard Ramirez and people like Ted Bundy and people like John Wayne Gacy and people again Mckepper always men are quite different in their discrete fascinations and uh individual Personality traits, but one thing that they had in common is none of them None of them reflected this diagnostic Model that quickly suggested You know is what constitutes the Psychopathic personality So even law enforcement agencies and academics and people who were prone to devising predictive models of behavior in abnormal subjects human subjects They came to realize this was somewhat uncharted territory And one thing that's interesting to me

1:34:24And I've made the point in this series and other places In no uncertain terms I consider behavioral science as it's practiced by law enforcement to mostly be abject nonsense and in particular John Douglas is an out and out Charlotteson and just kind of a ridiculous human being And I don't know cool way because ridiculous and uncool way but um You know At quantico this predictive behavioral psychology division of the FBI it came about uh In part because of Ramirez's murder spree and It very much took Occult motivation seriously You know now. That's not to say that the FBI

1:35:26Or law enforcement agencies at any level including You know the top of the profession as it were There's not to say that they have any sort of Enlightened perspective on human psychology but One thing they're not is uh They're not a bunch of yokels listening to Bob Larson and and trying to cast demons out by handling snakes and things Okay They took occult motivations very seriously So much so that they began training members of their behavioral science team As experts in occult motivations for violent crime You know they started researching The incidence of Adivistic Religious practices things like cannibalism things like human sacrifice You know things uh belief in demonic possession

1:36:30You know and they started trying to code variables That would predict where and how and why these things would emerge and otherwise Modern societies that had a rationalist perspective on The sources of human behavior and and and illness meant to go and mental and physical and You know uh natural phenomenon things Because they realize that People like Richard Ramirez were acting in isolation They are partaking of A Either a mass psychological delusion Or there was something in modern life That was encouraging regressive behaviors whereby people were responding to triggers overt or implied in their environment and

1:37:31reverting to a kind of barbarism sight unseen really In the modern era other than in You know cases of abject lunatics who were barely functional, but it's not at the kinds of people We're talking about here and incidentally This was the source of concern about subliminal messages Okay Now obviously speaking of Bob Larson There was nutty people like Wally George and Bob Larson There was uh Plain of attorneys. We're looking to carve out an entire New practice area Whereby great profits could be realized if liability could be demonstrated You know, I by suggesting that heavy metal music or horror movies Was programming people to commit suicide or self harm or commit violent acts

1:38:34And it became a farce But initially Research into this subject matter was anything but farcical and the idea that Symbolic psychology can impact human behavior and triggering capacity That's very subliminal and subconscious That's not silly That's a very real thing Carly young in his last years he was researching Tarot carbs a lot that's why if you read dune a lot of people They don't know what they don't understand especially young ones, but even a lot of people my age Especially in dune Messiah and children of dune A plot devices that there's a tarot deck modeled off of aspects of the planet of rakis And people who have The gift of prescience To varying degrees they've started making use of this tarot deck to try and divinate

1:39:38future of vets And uh that was a youngy and thing not because young thought you should sit down and look at tarot cards and it'll tell you You know how to how to bet at the horse track or whether or not You know a girl's gonna go out with you or whether or not, you know, you've got cancer or whatever But young as I do was that the human mind and subconscious capacities is constantly it is constantly both interpreting Prime psychological symbols in that environment, but also introducing um You know Symbols that emerge from the subconscious they're presumably epigenetically inherited into the environment and people who are both Perceiving these things and introducing these things and a kind of feedback loop. They don't even realize they're doing it so Young's notion was that well If you're dealing cards either in a game with other people

1:40:38Or if you're you know drawing a tarot deck in a solitary capacity You probably don't realize it, but you're subconsciously memorizing the order of those cards and your mind is coming back again and again To the certain patterns only to some significance of the symbols represented on the face cards or the paints or only to some numeric sequence on on the number cards and if you become aware of that And if you can become aware of why you're subconscious mind is is attracted to these things Well, you can come to understand certain things in your immediate environment That you weren't consciously aware of but that probably have a tendency towards What we view as you know a an almost prescient understanding of temporal events you know and that's serious stuff

1:41:43Even if it is highly esoteric um So this is a bleminal messaging thing initially derived from that same sort of School of thought okay and Taken in context and again, I'm not suggesting there weren't nutty people who had crazy ideas about this or or cynical people who were trying to exploit this for various reasons but In context and I lived through this as an adolescent and it was it was a real thing There's this outbreak of apparently random homicide and this bizarre incidence of You know with a subset of that population that's doing these things that apparently believes that They're familiar of supernatural beings or demonic entities and

1:42:44Within the environment It stands a reason that something is probably triggering or at least contributing to these behavior patterns Okay, so it's not totally far off especially uh You know if you're looking at these things that keep occurring in the culture Especially about exclusively in in metal records and in horror movies You know, it's not totally outlandis is a just that maybe the triggering mechanism is Contained within these things and again it this initially nobody was even suggesting this was entirely intentional you know, but understanding what That Process and tails It's not a submit of satin curiosity or you know acquire and close your A mis-tragidity Where you know some poor kid or some poor woman is brutalized and butchered

1:43:46but There was a real risk as it appeared of serial murder or becoming a genuine epidemic If these things are true what I just suggested At what some of these researchers were suggesting This potentially could be a real problem Because if that's something that's happening What's to stop you know? Okay, maybe a peak there was 3000 serial killers in the United States Well, what if suddenly there's 80,000 you know what if suddenly Guys don't know why but they started in sexually violent thoughts about like their wives and daughters or something You know, I mean like you can imagine it if like a comparable You know quote-unquote mental health crisis If you know instead of depression or anxiety You know your co-workers and you know the people you encounter in your daily life ran around with acts as killing people Yeah, it would be a Outcome no, I need to know 100% and

1:44:47something The data anecdotal as it was and the samples being skewed as they were To bring it back to say for example the zebra killings Okay, these guys like a lot of those guys were kind of losers who had petty criminal records But these guys didn't have a history of outrageous violence or something you know, it's like It's like something had come over them you know and um this one The guy who turned state seven is He was genuinely frightened And he said before he knew it this this was this out of control And he's like they couldn't stop and for some reason he wasn't impacted that way you know, but the uh And the guys who Another truly horrible case I

1:45:47And probably willing to cover it because it's relevant to the subject matter but the case of the this Chicago Ripper crew I find it unpleasant to discuss that case because it's so disgusting It's like this really disgusting and just evil but You know Robin Gekts who obviously was a serious deviant You know be one thing if If he um done these things himself But he had at least three accomplices who again had no history of sexual violence who were doing unbelievably horrific things They were doing necrophilic and cannibalistic things the It's something went collectively insane You know and uh they can't be chopped up to What is conventional Sociological musings about criminal personalities and their tendency to abide uh a group consensus particularly you know

1:46:48when Somebody they look to as As um as a leader element is is capable of of extreme violence it you know, so this was a real this was a real concern you know and um It you know it was it was frightening you know it uh A lot of the films from the year or two Other than Rocky for I mean this can seem really so My my favorite slow movie is cobra because it's like George Peacus models and it's a proper horror movie And it's about this cult Led by Brian Thompson and it's exact that's exactly the subject matter is uh They start they don't take this campaign of mass homicide Incident to this kind of helter skelter ideology but it's basically the With the driving element of the plot is that

1:47:50There's some sort of massive stereo is causing otherwise ordinary people to um develop homicide Lightiation and then ultimately to act upon it And there's this whole there's this whole montage scene But they show this one guy He like works in a fishery because like all the people in this cult they get this tattoo And so like this dude's like cutting up fish and like he's one of them this lady was a cop like she's one of them This kind of like never should count guy like he's one of them And um, I mean, yeah, there's a silly movie. I'm not saying that you should watch that movie and and And try some sort of a latent perspective from it, but that was in the zeitgeist Because of the things I'm talking about You know, that's why something like that's only the context today You know, it's it's just seems like stupid or weird or really some Kind of challenging fantasy piece, but um, you know, it uh

1:48:51So the reason why I spun off to talk about this. I mean not just because it it sets the zeitgeist of and the psychological environment of Which are mirrors was mirrored and But also you know again, I I'm constantly coming up against people um You know academics not not just guys on the internet with podcasts um And they're pushing back on me is uh Well, you know the satanic panic was curated by heraldo and and these bumpkins in the bible bell to who couldn't handle The disruptions of modern life. It's not what happened. You know like again. They're they're obviously there were um Yahoo's Who profit from this like Bob Larson, but That that wasn't where what it was emerging from and even these behavioral science types of chronicle You know everybody like normies all like respect these guys and act like they've got great insight into the human condition

1:49:57It's like well These guys were basically driving this research You know, so it's um it's an odd ah It's an odd kind of a blind spot um Let me let me find a place in my um Yeah, and it's also i Um An interesting guy who wrote i mean he's interesting anyway, but he he wrote a lot about remeeras um before remeeras was identified And then after remeeras was arrested and i think he even continued um Interviewing him after remeeras was convicted and was on sand what in death throw but this guy dr. Martin blinder he came uh He came to prominence because uh he was an expert witness At the murder trial of dan white in dan white was the dude blueway harvey milk

1:51:00And George must go on um I don't think i don't think either of those runny big loss He uh blinder was uh he became something about he was kind of like park deets okay You know in park deets Put himself on the map because he He was a witness for the prosecution and in the hinkley trial You know but blinder uh uh I think blinders research was in his point of been more rigorous than deets deets is kind of a celebrity witness Or than he is a real researcher in my opinion, but um blinder was consulted by li county sheriffs homicide When i began clear they had a serial killer on their hands and um the uh He you know he made the point that hot prowling homes And then assaulting and torturing the victims the way that the nice stalker did

1:52:05And indulging this gratuitous violence that suggests uh Delight in the suffering and pain of others above and beyond You know even that would just common to Anoroused sexual sadist um blinder speculated this is so unusual and because the victim profile Was all over the board, but there was a disproportionate number of Asian women The blinders speculated that it may very well have been a special operations forces veteran of Vietnam Who was mired in some kind of Flashback episodes because it was so strange and so basically unprecedented You know and uh there was all kinds of uh The nature of combat in Vietnam was leading the strange outcomes too in terms of the lasting impact um Which is what blinder was getting at this catch all term pt as d is problematic for a lot of reasons

1:53:10You know uh i hear people refer to it and i'll bring it back in a second, but this is important I heard people suggest it's that that shell shock was a euphemism for it. It's not There's a particular The kind of injury to the central nervous system if you're under cost and artillery broad That's different. I mean Not to not to get this off track, but The tb i traumatic brain injuries like you see the same thing Obviously with guys under for bombardment, but also uh You know speculations run wild that uh professional wrestler uh crisp and moi You know was affected by this uh Obviously any number of professional athletes Aaron Hernandez is kind of the uh Like the prototypical example, but junior say and it's difficult because there is often overlap generally if you were being Sheld there's probably you know some other Traumatic experience you went through to put it mildly. Oh, yeah Just wanted to echo that point that those are not generally seen as synonymous. Oh, no, no

1:54:13You're right. Yeah, that's that's hundred percent true and also in um One of the and i mean this plays into the pathology of Of Ramirez's cousin Mike who was a special forces operator and Vietnam In um um air mobility totally changed the battlefield Air mobility changed combat. I think probably even more than locally autonomous drones are Because air mobility meant um You could force enemy contact You know uh, it totally changed the dynamics of uh Of combined arms for all time. So if you were in the infantry and um You know You were intrinsically air mobile even if you weren't so designated So over and over and over again. You were having contact with the enemy You know in that uh That coupled with the concussion injuries and other things

1:55:18You know that creates kind of a perfect storm potentially of of um Pathologies You know and uh people are so afflicted like they had this not their fault and i'm not trying to be punitive um I've actually got a lot of sympathy for guys who got banged up in the Vietnam um But uh you know it was uh Blind or i mean his research in that regard is interesting on his own terms, but the point being These cases that kept happening and Californian northern California and southern California both The incidents of these things was so What was so it was being a commonplace it It it it bottled the night i anecdotally the uh Larry Bittaker and Roy Norris

1:56:19they were in this uh They murdered teenage girls and um At the same time they were doing that Like Kenneth Bianchi and Angela Bono the Hellside Stranglers They were doing exactly the same thing and these guys were even without you being aware of each other They were using some of the same dump sites like that that's totally insane You know, there's just something that this was becoming so common You'd have guys kind of like passing in the night Who are doing the same thing Um and even utilizing It Dubsites and common in the foothills because uh you know If you know that the fire roads in Southern California You know it'll you know be at least a few days before a law enforcement finds a body and You know this was before there was you know advanced DNA testing you know by that point Animal protection and and the sun and everything else will will take care of the

1:57:22the evidence but You know that that just gives you an idea of how Insamely common this was and uh and around the same time William Bonn in and and and a couple of his uh He was bought and was gay and a couple of his uh like cruising buddies. They were like slaughtering male hitchhikers somebody um I can't remember uh Who it was it was one of these uh Joseph Womba type uh Kind of hard-boiled cop authors. He referred to the highways of Southern California in the 70s and 80s as a killing field You know and that that that that's not just that permanently like that the body counts is completely insane You know um And that's uh that's why hitchhiking stop being a thing you know um Is uh Because of that experience i mean to this day like nobody hitchhike You see even with gps on cell phones and

1:58:23The the the the the big one either electric eye it's It's become like oh yeah. Well, I mean it's one of those things where it was like once the once the degree of social trust Necessary for that system to function win away and look like there was always potential for abuse like even in uh How is it i think it's the first Major flanario conner novel there's a you know a hitchhiking or actually this features often in her books I don't know why good man is hard to find in others right written you're set during the 20s and 30s right there were cases where you know You picked up an axe murder it happens and also like you're always gonna be careful I'm sure of guys getting you know A little bit of too aggressive with stuff and yeah uh of course, but i mean to your point the reason i brought it up is that There's an order of magnitude difference between that and Particularly you know the highways of as you said Southern California. Yeah, guys guys just hunting humans. Yeah for sport

1:59:27No, the whole Excuse me. So yeah, this was um, you know, and this is one of the reasons Because people have raised the issue about Ramirez as they did Um about son of sam you know, it's like okay. You got it. There's a city of millions of people You know, what are the odds of Getting murdered by a human Vader. It's like well better than you think uh sweet, but also it wasn't just about rich of Ramirez It wasn't just about the son of sam. You know, it was a it was a this was a pattern of uh Of uh behavior that was cropping up again and again at increasing scale You know, it wasn't just one isolated incidents um You know, that's the There's a lot of weird stuff that goes into the the kind of subculture or jack the ripper researchers, you know

2:00:27Which i find kind of off-putting but uh i got interested in it Oh into this subject matter But also George Howard Shaw Who was an interesting guy I admit i got a sauce but for Not just something that's plays but some of his sociopolitical musings but um It was pretty it's pretty clear to me that jack the ripper wasn't one guy. It was a number of guys who were doing this for sports You know and uh That's one of the that's why scotland yard is gravely concerned and George Howard Shaw the Nietzschean He famously said that You know he famously said that you know jack the ripper whoever he is is like doing a great service And he's like a good progressive because he's alleviating suffering by like butchering these wretches and like getting him out of our ship Which i think was a little bit To catalyst to probably be funny and if somebody appreciates yellows humor

2:01:28but uh point being um Scotland yard took it so seriously Because uh i think they realize what i just said that this isn't Some lone maniac who's hearing voices. This is something that people are doing in Um, you know in a regular capacity Owing to some sort of triggering mechanism or Ten and seats were just adivistic violence that Due to variables not you'd identified is You know It is is causing this and Inweight modernity and particularly in highly skilled Urban environments and um That uh It wants that kind of thing develops a true Spontaneous momentum it it's somebody can't be controlled Any uh Any longer and uh to get bring it back to blinder um

2:02:31You know he made the point to That law enforcement really got blinds sent it by this uh He wrote a book uh the title sounds goofy, but it's contextually relevant He wrote a book called lover's killer's husband's lives And it was a study Basically a homicide in the western world in the modern era You know in this traditional linear temporal paradigm, you know of modernity you know Is following the middle ages and continuing to the Then present mid 20th century You know he pointed out that um Anybody who just murder strangers with and and in the on top of it murder strangers without a profit motive You know, but who does it for a hedonic reason this this almost never happened and then suddenly started happening all the time You know traditionally a murderer or somebody who kills his wife or a romantic rival or a

2:03:33A business rival or you or you or you murder somebody owing the reasons of mass you on otter Almost always it's men under 30 who would do this Um almost always was a one-off thing that you know wouldn't occur again um You know and then very suddenly with the violence epidemic All these assumptions cease to exist You know and the serial killer became a A permanent fixture and in the developed world You know and it was at the time was interesting um There's a fan-fitting film uh Back one eight Excuse me back when HBO actually did worthwhile films imagine that um It was called citizen X. It was about Andre chickatilla was a very prolific serial killer in the Soviet Union And one of the reasons why um the militia and uh kgb and gyrua like they refused to acknowledge that serial murder existed in the Soviet Union

2:04:37Because they said you know, this is uh something that's emergent and late capitalist cultures that are failing You know even if superficially it appears that one man is doing these things that's not what's happening so chickatilla He got away with it for like 20 years You know, but um The uh Blinder when he was writing he made the point it wasn't clear if there are serial killers behind the iron curtain You know incomparable Ratio and frequencies as in the west obviously because there was no access to data there and the official line of the Of these maris's loneliness states Was that you know, this was a capitalist five and uh that doesn't exist here You know, well and and that adds an interesting uh interesting dimension to The question of civil and mental messaging You know you one would assume if that were you know the soul the soul cause in a similarly sized country right another super power

2:05:46absent those things and obviously I understand there was cinema behind in the iron curtain But There's nowhere near the level of media The same type of media we got in the west right and there was no Yeah, other than like underground stuff. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's an important um I spent a lot of time trying to dig out what I can about The sociology within the Soviet Union and and the satellite states You can find a fair amount about East Germany. I mean obviously because it's not just the fact that You know, there was that they had a common language and there was even even during a periods of heightened tension Like people over 65 were allowed to like travel to the west and even stay there if they wanted because it's like they're retired people So there was always there there was always you know cross-cultural exchange and stuff but it's um It's hard to find real data even today. I mean part of that's because

2:06:50And here's the Russian Federation they clamped down on on You know people being able to access the archives and stuff and it's not like It's not like this stuff sound like some you know version of the cloud in Russia or something you can access it But you know, it's a data was so much manipulated particularly anything relating to criminality or or sociological aspects that you know Tended towards anti-social behavior, but it's uh if I had the time if I wasn't sort of so mired and The kinds of projects I'm now including this Manuscript most immediately, but I mean just generally you know like my topical forward is this political theory and stuff If I had the time I I take on a project like that um because I think it is important It's not as a matter of seating them macabre curiosity either at it you know um This pattern is going to emerge again unfortunately. I mean, I I have no idea what the cyclical

2:07:55coding is but Is this didn't just happen once and you know and the last 40,000 years that they're gonna happen again um In fact, I think I may have really merged him with him at lifetime, you know um And I find that unsettling but Moving it forward you give these tangential discussions um I hope the subs aren't Don't fight it to be undermining the Corr um I did a lot of research on this when I was on the road actually as you can probably tell and uh I think it's important and I think it's material, but to bring it back Um, did I case or amiras in a more direct way? There were two images that you Oh, yeah, yeah, do you want to mention that? Yeah, that's from miras is acdc cap and one of the first uh one of the first uh murders that uh Facilitated the understanding that a serial murder was active um

2:08:56Dale Okazaki She was murdered her roommate survived because her keys deflected the round Ramirez dropped or he lost uh his acdc cap at the scene And uh, you know, so ramirez loved rock and roll. Yeah, that's that's the actual cap Um and the avia chuprant and the acdc cap That was those the first pieces of uh material evidence That um Los Angeles uh Sheriff's homicide got a hold of and You know when it became clear uh Ramirez was a rock and roll fanatic That obviously raised all all kinds of concerns in the public mind owing to What we were talking about it's hop of the hour about um You know subliminal coding

2:09:57Within the culture uh tentative trigger Psychological mechanisms that Tendred towards adivistic um Expressions of violence and um, you know, you know sexual and sadistic and otherwise So that that became a big deal, you know and uh The song uh the song night prowler was one of ramirez's favorite James and later he admitted that he considered that his song That and uh eyes without a face by billi-io He won't billi-io to what's interesting but i i think billi-io is great But ramirez had more electric taste than your average metal head but he disturbingly and i I don't want to upset people, but this is material for a few reasons Post-mortem ramirez began removing victims of eyes um That had a significance to him and Obviously the billi-idle jam is based on the movie eyes without a face

2:11:03ramirez had some Understanding or belief and uh This is one of those sort of cross-cultural belief structures about you know The repository of the human soul and intellect and things you know, it's always an emphasis There's an emphasis place on eyes, you know as you can you can discern somebody's Airmost um Covidance is if you lift them in the eye or you can You know discern their their moral compass or something or That's where the soul truly resides and and Such that it's a there's a corporeal aspect to it So ramirez and this idea that by taking people's eyes he he somehow was was capturing their um

2:12:03Transcendental essence, you know, which is kind of horrible to think about but uh He was very aware that You know symbolic phenomena in the environment was Triggering uh thought patterns Within his own uh waking consciousness as well as as well as his own you know subliminal psychic experience and um i find that really interesting uh I think ramirez was a fascinating guy. I don't mean then flattering terms. He's a horrible horrible person and he he shouldn't Be lauded in any way shape or form obviously, but he had a lot of insight into what He was doing and why he was doing it and frankly most sensually violent men don't have that kind of insight which has another reason why Not always but often the true serial killer is something of a man apart

2:13:10from uh You know um It has peers if you want to look at it like that and um and uh Who exists outside the law and Who stock and trade his violence, you know um It's not accidental and ramirez wasn't the only one like that, but I think he was If that's what he or she died kind of the most uh reflective on these things um You know and it Sheriff of block who was the sheriff of lilay county You know as i mentioned he called a literal press conference when it when he decided that the public had to be It advised of the fact that There was a threat of of you know of a serial murderer um A emergent and uh Uh

2:14:10I got a deal of carillo. He's he's kind of a he's he's still alive He's kind of a fixture on these on these uh police and crime podcasts these days. I noticed Carillo wasn't the lead investigator on the case, but he had an outsized influence for two reasons He was highly computer literate because he was like a young like techie And that was rare, you know in 1985 especially and you know the sheriff's department But also uh He uh became something of an expert on uh a cult uh Influenced murders You know and he uh Actually liased with chronicle At the f-fair behavioral science unit because he was considered to be a man who had expertise And in setting to a cult crime Yeah, so again this was coming from federal and law enforcement as well as

2:15:12Big city sheriff's departments like Ellie County homicide it wasn't Simply being driven by media or by uh, you know Al Gore's wife or or by moral majority the holy words You know when I that really can't be overstated because the narrative doesn't abide that reality But um That's about all I got um on this so one thing I wanted to say uh Sort of capstone we got a number of Questions about one of the sources we mentioned at our first Richard Ramirez episode The name of the guy we're talking about is Nicholas Shrek. That's n-i-k-o-l-a-s-s-c-h-r-e-c-k He married Levée's daughter Uh, he's sort of an interesting character I believe got one of his ears cut off by a group of gay prostitutes Weird story that is on his wikipedia page Uh, but he in addition to

2:16:13Corresponding with Ramirez and he's sort of on the podcast circuit uh, but he was also In touch with and and sort of obsessed with manson as well uh Take this guy's Testimony for what you will in addition to being connected to you know, Levée He's involved with the temple of set other organizations Uh, but he does you know, he did have firsthand contact with many of these guys So that's the source that Thomas and I are pulling from for at least you know part of this Uh, people were asking such where you can find that But yeah, Thomas. Thank you so much. This was really uh really educational interesting obviously we will keep going and the occultism series Uh, as far as your stuff Not much has changed since the last episode Uh, I think everyone is eagerly awaiting your book, but I'll be sure to to link to your substack Uh, the gum road where you know, you and I release our current events show as well as your website As far as my stuff jay bird and show apple Spotify youtube uh

2:17:17Like I said before. This is what I do. I appreciate your support. I can't do it without you And you think it's worth your money to him you few bucks on patreon on substack or gum road And in addition to helping the helping you keep the lives on guess what you get the episodes early and add free Anything else Thomas? No, I think that's it man. Thanks so much for a hosting me man Oh, and one other thing I want to give a special shout out to uh to jd at axios remote fitness coaching Uh, because I can't walk today Because he decided that this was a split squat kind of day I'm hopping around like I'm uh I'm fucking 85 But again, Thomas this was great. Never went in home. Keep your head up. I can't last forever. Good night

2:18:23But