The Bottom-Up Revolution - The Missing Ingredient in Great Placemaking

0:00Hello and welcome to Bottom Up Revolution. I'm Norm. I'm stepping in for Tiffany this week with a great interview with Colby Cox, who is a founder and president of convergence communities, longtime entrepreneur as well in the craft brewing world, and someone that's working to build stronger communities using really good place-making principles, thinking about places for gathering, for everyday routines that actually bring people out of their homes or out of their carriages, out of their vehicles, and into spaces that are very thoughtfully designed so people can get connected. And so welcome to Bottom Up Revolution, Colby. Thank you. Good to be here. Thanks for having me. So you've been working at this for a long period of time, and one of your first larger development projects was actually connected, or adjacent to dogfish head brewing. And I wanted just ask because I love the beer, and I have always been a huge fan. Can you share just how that

1:01experience sort of put on your frame work? A question of like, how do we build in much the same way that we used to build, and how do we do that so that way we can not only benefit the community, but create lasting value? Sure. Around the time that we developed Canary Billages, where a dogfish head is to this day, and that's, you know, it's an interesting backstory there because that was a cleanup of a environmental, environmentally contaminated site and involved a lot of complexity. So it was a combination of both finding like a new use for the land and making it part of the community, but also kind of cleaning up, you know, what had been, you know, a hundred-year-old factory with, you know, a lot of, so it wasn't only like, our job was to try to add to the, you know, the character of the town and fit into the town, was also to try to get rid of something that was really negatively impacting it. So that was quite young when I did that project, actually. I was 23 years old when I took that on. It's, to some extent, that was a good thing because I was, you know,

2:06really hungry and wanted to, you know, soak it up and learn as much as I can, but it was probably one of the most complex things I ever could have gotten involved in, just in terms of environmental regulation and everything else, but ultimately it ended up being such a win for everyone. Dogfish head was really struggling at the time to find a, you know, a permanent spot. They had moved a couple of times and they were growing so fast that every time they would move somewhere within a year, year and a half, they were, you know, couldn't fit anymore and needed to find another place. And anyway, so it just so happened that this, in this particular spot, there was a building that after tearing down a million tons of concrete and everything else, we could not tear this one building down and we had to find a use for it. And the only, you know, viable use in that area of really, you know, that would work synergistically with housing and a neighborhood and everything else was something like, you know, craft beer that was, you know,

3:10kind of a clean industrial use and pretty friendly and had a storefront and hospitality arm and all of this stuff. So it was a super fun thing to do and it's fun, you know, now in terms of how that's informed everything I've kind of done since that because it was, you know, going back to your question, it was all, you know, back then it was like traditional neighborhood design, was all the hot topic and like, you know, this idea of kind of just going back to the way things were, you know, were developed in the past with like smaller setbacks and zero lot line and more density and, you know, it was kind of like the idea that if we just design it the right way, we will inherently get kind of community. And in some way, let's put it this way, bad design can definitely take away from creating community. Great design does not guarantee community. And that's,

4:10I think, you know, where things like the brewery and some of the other stuff we're doing starts to come into play. And one of the things that stood out to me and, you know, this is going back, but you got a bunch of the council members onto a bus and took them to see an example of what you wanted to see. And this is not a rare occurrence. I've heard of lots of different people who basically have to get it over the line. It requires actually experiencing it in person. We've seen that down in Sugarland, Texas, where they took the whole council and brought them to places that are working and functional. And even in my community, there's, there was a rally against housing, of course. And so in that context, someone said, are you going to do a rally for housing? I said, no, we're going to do a walking tour of the housing that already exists in our place and show people homes that people can call home and then ask the question, are you sure you're against this? Can you talk about that mindset of really, I guess, at some level, understanding if people can't see it or sort of picture it, it's really hard for them to then want to approve it or be a

5:14participant in moving forward for the community. Yeah, you know, it's, I will say that, in general, we tend to be a fear based society. Everything is like, it's not about living in a world of surplus or it's more about like, protect your downside. And it tends to be the same way with kind of town councils and planning and zoning and things like that because they never get rewarded for doing great things. They only get told, you know, everything they screwed up. And so, you know, and I get it, it's unfortunate that it works that way, but that tends to be how it is. And so a lot of times, you know, it's the fear of the unknown. It's like, well, you can, it's crazy because you can even literally take these people and show them in their own community. The design that exists and say, listen, this is exactly what we're trying to do right

6:17here. Do you see the distance between these two homes? It's only 10 feet. This is how it was built 400 years ago. Would you agree that because you designated this historic district and that you want to preserve it, that this is good design? And they will agree with you and then you will say, okay, well, this is what I want to do. And they're like, yeah, but, you know, because then some engineer shows up and says, yeah, but, you know, this fire truck needs a 250 foot turning radius and, you know, every 100 years, we get this snowstorm. And, you know, therefore, we need 120 foot right of ways down every street, the plow, and we, all these things. And, you know, nothing against engineers, you know, but there has to be a balance between kind of like beauty, okay? And function, we seem to have lost our appreciation for, or the importance of beauty. When it comes to the conversation, we see it's like, it's like an add-on that would be nice after we solve for function,

7:23you know, if there's a little bit of beauty, that's great. You know, and it's just a shame because beauty used to be such an important part of design. I mean, it was, if you go back to some of the greatest kind of time periods and human history of creation, you know, I mean, beauty was, and aesthetics was such a huge part of that, you know, it wasn't just like, you know, like the aqueduct system, you know, didn't just have to be functional, you know, it actually had to look aesthetically good. It had to fit into the architecture, you know, and so it's just a shame that, but anyway, I can go off on that for a while. You know, I think we ended up taking counsel, as you mentioned, to two communities. They're joined, Lakelands and Kentlands in Northern Virginia. And, you know, just to show them kind of what alleyways do, rear access, things like that, what setbacks look like, you know, how, and it was really important that the kind of

8:26is a similar climate, you know, relatively speaking, and so they get understand that, you know, look, somehow these people figure out how to keep streets plowed, somehow this work, somehow, and it was, you know, and they loved it. It was thriving community, looked great, and then of course, now, you know, Canary Village and what's going on there, honestly, has been referenced, you know, for other projects in the town as like, hey, this is, you know, we want to try to build on this. So I understand why councils and PNZ think the way that they do, as I mentioned, you know, because there's no reward for winning there. However, I do appreciate it when a planning zoning or a council is willing to have some political will and be a little brave, you know, in the interest of creating good design. And I think one of the things that stands out in some of your design work and, you know, the projects that you've moved forward with is that some of the homes are, you know,

9:29they're lovely. Others are more not utilitarian, but they are, you know, in one sense, background buildings, because much of your focus is also on creating like really good public spaces that are available to others. And you've got a couple of great quotes about like, you know, pushing back on the idea of like the simple amenity package, which is the soulless sort of gathering room, maybe a gym that looks like a hotel gym that nobody can actually fit in and nobody would ever be caught, you know, working out in. Can you share like, you're saying, I need to create a place that's worth being in and not just like escaping from. Can you share like how that I think is maybe becoming more part of the foreground and more of the calculation, but how hard is it to get that message through when you're talking about like per square foot costs and some of the concerns that people have about lingering like stratifies or condofes that down the road are going to be a requirement for them. And so they they block it like, well, are we sure that we want to have like a gathering space or a fountain or something like that that will server a community well?

10:33Yeah. I think that a lot of developers in my experience, they look at the offerings for a community with the viewpoint of like kind of checking a list of boxes and, you know, putting like, let's say enough kind of like open space or green space on a map in order to show up at a council meeting, you know, get an approval. And it seems to be to be honest with you, it's the the only word I have for it is lazy. Yeah. They're meeting some ratio of public space or green space to pave space. Yeah. Yeah. And it's and and what some, you know, people will try to use or designate as open space, you know, it's is, you know, like a stormwater management pond, you know, that is really not very functional. I mean, aesthetically, you can make them look pretty good and, you know,

11:33it does create view corridors and things like that. But, you know, functional open space is a different deal. And by functional, you know, it not only needs to be a place where people can gather, you know, physically and like it's it's useful, but also want to. Because it is, you know, easily accessible, it's, you know, generally located, you know, in a place that feels inviting, let's say, and is of a scale, you know, that, you know, it actually allows for a variety of functions, you know, so it's it's not, you know, like a tot lot is, you know, great for, you know, but it's not, if you start taking these things and rather than kind of breaking them up into, you know, and kind of try to put these some of these things together, that's how you really start to get energy around something. So you get, you know, the young families

12:35and like the playground kind of working with the skate park, you know, and some of the like the teenagers and the, you know, young adults that are over there and you put that kind of in the same proximity as the bouldering area. And, you know, you've and then you start inviting all and, you know, you've got recreational fields, so you've got activity going on there with like various, you know, recreational sports and, and once you start having these things where it's like, there's always something being activated, you know, kind of throughout the day, and there's, it starts to build this energy. And that's what gets people to, like, and then when you come into a community, people get a sense of that energy immediately. It's inviting, you know, it's like, there are, you know, this is because that's what we want, you know, we, we, we, every human being has, you know, some innate desire to be connected with other, you know, human beings. And so if we

13:39create these spaces where it feels inviting and natural to connect with people, you know, whether we consciously understand this or not, it definitely is an attractive feature, you know, and that's why when people show up, like, I'm in the hospitality business too, you know, I own breweries and restaurants and things like that, like, this is, you know, it's, it's, there's, there's definitely a secret sauce to creating an environment, you know, where, you know, people feel kind of that, that factor of like, I don't know what it is about this place, but I like it. Like, it's, it's warm, it's inviting, I feel comfortable, it's, you know, and, and so you can do that with indoor spaces, you can do that without indoor spaces. And it's really important. You're someone in the Strongtowns world we talk about, Nissim Telebs concept of having skin in the game. And, and this feels really important to me because, you know, I've played Simpsidies on, on computer and I get to be in God mode, or, you know, as, as an advocate, I at times am advocating,

14:41you know, in my city for changes to our zoning standards, to some of our building requirements, things like that. And yet, I do so from this vantage point of a, a renter with modest means, without an active project on the go. But your perspective as someone that has skin in the game, I think it's really important of, hey, I have projects and people that are dependent on us being able to move forward and not getting stalled out, not getting completely like side swiped by new requirements. And, and that feels to me like one of those challenges that we have in our planning profession in particular, that is Chuck would say the zoners with their their highlighters can have way more of an outsized impact than maybe at first glance they intend to or the person as you mentioned, you know, if, if the standard requires that the garbage truck have perfect access and tons of extra space in order to be able to, you know, get to the garbage facilities on any given development, like that can have an outsized influence on chopping a lot of otherwise good things out of the plans because you need to meet some, we would say a dumb requirement, you know,

15:46it's orderly sure, but it can be chaotic by dumb. And, and I think that as advocates, especially as our audience members are listening, I think at times we wonder like, who's the brave person that is actually pushing some of these projects forward? But also when you have that skin in the game, you want to talk about how that, I mean, certainly gives grounds to you in a sense of responsibility. But I think also gives you a perspective that says, hey, here's where some of these like big requirements that get dumped on this lead in the process, like can really hard and harm us. How can we be good advocates for like fine tuning that that sense of obligation responsibility as as project developers are coming through? I think, and this is going to get a little deep because it gets to a greater issue, which is that I think the, you know, fundamental the, you know, there's a quiet majority that just that doesn't speak up very often. And it's really important that that voice gets activated in a bigger way on so many different

16:51levels, you know, in terms of where we are going as humanity, you know, whether it's a conversation about AI or whether it's a conversation about how the property next to you is developed. And yes, I have skin in the game for sure. But the biggest skin in the game that I have is like, you know, for lack of a better term, like a serious level of give about, you know, what legacy I'm going to leave with my communities, you know, it's not about, yes, my projects have to perform financially or I can't talk to banks and I can't talk to investors. And yes, I have to do, you know, various things, you know, but the most important thing in this office and to me is, you know, when this, somebody drives into one of my communities 50 years from now, when maybe I'm alive, probably I'm not, you know, what does it look like? What does it feel like and has it stood the test time and did I generally do a good job? Is there quality in the work that I did? That's,

17:56you know, that's, I want, you know, that's really important to me. And it's really important that, you know, the kind of the more quiet, let's say, majority starts to activate as a voice and starts to speak up because it's really, really becoming problematic in the broader scheme of issues that, you know, we are facing right now. You know, there are a few people telling us right now what our future is going to look like as humans. It's like, you know, this technology is going to, you know, change your life, but don't worry, you know, we'll take care of you. Just know that, you know, it's going to be great. We can't tell you exactly what it is. You may not have a job. It's going to be, you know, like, blah, blah, like all this stuff. And so far, I would say, if you really follow, you know, kind of the last 25 years, the truth is that

18:58we have failed to be delivered, I guess, the benefits and the promises of what technology was going to do us on a broader scale. Yes, there have been improvements in our lives, but generally, if you just step back and go, are we a better society? Are we happier as people now than we were 25 years ago? And I would say that the answer in just about everything says, no, that is not the case. People feel more isolated. They feel more alone. They feel detached. There's a high rates of depression, anxiety, you know, and this, and, and, and here we are sitting on the precipice of huge advancements in technology that, you know, and it's, and my attitude on it is that it's generally benign. You know, it's like it could be the greatest thing in the world or not. But we as humanity should be the voice in deciding which direction it goes, not, you know, three or four tech billionaire dorks dictating exactly what, you know, and so it's the same thing with

20:01developers. And I can't stress this enough. Like just because some guy shows up at a public hearing and he says, I have millions of dollars on the line and I've got a bunch of big lawyers and engineers standing behind me, does not mean that the person who lives down the street should not be brave enough and needs to be brave enough to stand up and sit and ask legitimate questions and get reasonable answers to those questions. And if a developer is afraid to answer your question, that's a problem. Okay. There, you know, beware, the unintended consequences, I think going back to one of your, you know, some of the protections that are put in place, you know, sometimes cause more harm than good. But ultimately, I think what this comes down to is like, at some point, you know, those of the reasonable people out there who care about their communities need to go to some of these, you know, need to participate in their community. They need to show up at some of these

21:04meetings and they need to ask reasonable questions and they need to give their opinion. And, yeah, I think that's, and take that to like the town level all the way up, you know, from there. Well, and you've got, you know, dilapidated rundown sites that are contaminated and the question is, well, are we actually content with just letting rainfall all continue to, you know, drive more and more of these toxic materials into the ground? Because that's the, you know, that's one approach or to actually do something with those sites, it can be really important. And I certainly, in my community, one of the things that we've tried to do with our local conversation group is before something. And so we have a much clearer picture of what we are for. Then I think a lot of, you know, some of the folks that are really frustrated in our community, they're just against everything. And the result has been that we did a community discussion about a project that a development or a community had proposed. And they immediately assumed we were shills of the developer that we were working for them, that we were basically, you know, astroturf. And so we just said, no, we're

22:06here to have an honest conversation about it. And it began to really shift the tenor of the room when all of a sudden they realized, oh, like on the one hand, you're not just on the, on the payroll for someone. On the other hand, you're, you're really serious that you're kind of okay with this. Or you're actually interested in, in moving forward. I wonder if you could share a story of maybe a project or two that, especially around like breweries who, I mean, who doesn't love a good brewery in a community? Have you seen moments where people have like all of a sudden come out of the woodwork, maybe in surprising ways, and actually had a role in, in tipping the balance right, minimum rewriting the conversation so that way it wasn't purely a negative cast that council was, you know, against their better judgment voting for it. But instead saying like, no, this is a win-win for the community. Yeah, I can't tell you how many experiences I've had in hearings where, you know, let's say the same person over and over again at every hearing will stand up and say something negative about what it is I'm doing. Usually they don't have their facts in order.

23:12And it becomes pretty clear that they just don't want anything. And that's fair. That's, I get it. And then after the hearing, I'll have two or three people come up to me and say, look, I just want you to know that we're so happy about what is going on here. And we really support it and everything else and keep going and all this stuff. And I'm like, that's great. I really wish you would say something, you know, in the hearing itself, but I get it, you know, nobody wants to get, you know, the buzzsaw. So I think the answer is yes. I've had a lot of opportunities over the years where I've had both members of the public mayor, specifically, you know, in the like town of Milton has been a fabulous relationship over the last 25 years through multiple different administrations of, you know, council members that are willing to take some risk because they really care

24:16about the town like deeply, willing to go out on the limb and try some things and experiment and trust is built. And, you know, over time, and then, you know, it's, those are the best relationships where because inevitably there are complications, you know, in things that don't go according to plan. It's like, you know, we thought that, you know, it was going to take this long in order to get, you know, all the engineering completed and start construction took this long, and now we're in the winner and we said we were going, you know, there's all there's always things that come up. And so having some level of trust, but it's my responsibility to build that trust, you know, it's my responsibility first to give people a reason to believe that I am going to do what I say I'm going to do. And that's any developers or so. It's not true that all development is good and it is not true that all development is bad. You know, and, and so in the eight, you know,

25:20kind of let's call it the 80% of, you know, that section in the middle where we're kind of talking about what is good and what is not good, you know, in the in the reasonable world of, you know, that thinking, I guess, there's a lot of room to move. And I think it's really important to show up. I mean, the worst, the worst strategy I've ever seen and I see it over and over again from developers is to show up at a hearing and say, this is what we're allowed to do. And it's terrible. And this is what I want to do. And if you don't let me do this, then I'm going to give you this, you know, and it's like, okay, you know, I don't think we're starting out of the right place. Our approach is, you know, we try to at least, we show up and say, okay, what is it that we could do that would help you with some of the biggest problems that you're facing right now?

26:22Because there may be some things on that list that would be relatively low-hanging fruit for us to solve. And rather than us just showing up and trying to like, you know, just bulldoze you and tell you what we think is great for you, how about we listen for a second, hear what the needs are, and then maybe we can figure out a way to manipulate our plan before we show up to deliver on some of those. And that just having that in my experience, just showing up with that question, what is it you need? It starts to build trust. You want to share then, you know, once projects are approved and you, a part of your business model is master plan communities and, you know, you've hired much better master planners that I think then a lot of times or sometimes I've asked like, I want to meet the master because they're not very masterful what they've done with, you know, very stock sort of track developments that just didn't really like meet the vision that was ever presented. But within the context of like trying to think through, all right, how do we think more holistically about

27:24building really great neighborhoods? One of the traps from a strong counts perspective is that it can create the conditions which it is now frozen in amber. So it is a well planned community, but the plan itself can sort of take on almost godlike status and be like, well, we can't deviate from this by allowing, you know, a new brewery to pop up because it wasn't in the original master plan. There's a tension there and we would say it's strong counts that like no neighborhood should be subject to radical change and no neighborhood once it's built should be exempt from change either. I feel like we might be getting to the point where the shackles are coming off to a certain extent. But can you sort of speak to that challenge of like path determination? We're on this path. We have the plan. It's, you know, it's filed in the court records or county records. But I also like no plan survives first contact with the enemy. So we need to have that like flexibility built in. Are we getting there? And maybe what are some ways that I think strong counts advocates will sometimes be flustered because it's not in the lexicon of our planning and development operations to

28:30have this idea of persistent gradual adaptation and iteration over time. But you must grapple with that when you think, hey, I want places that are going to survive and thrive 50, 70, 80 years after I'm gone. And we know a core element of that is going to be that the tinkering, the iterating, the like fixing and tweaking is actually got to be part of that process. Yep. Yeah, it definitely, especially when you're talking about, you know, projects, most of our projects are minimum of 12 years, typically north of 20 year projects. And a lot can change. Hopefully, you know, the goal of any project is to get better over time, you know, and to improve on things and learn, you know, as you go through a project. Oh, if we had kind of, I think if we had kind of shifted this road a little bit, you know, the view corridor kind of looking over, you know, would would have been better. And so maybe when we get into phase three, let's, you know, let's change this radius a little bit. We

29:33were constantly doing stuff like that. And again, I think it really come for the most part, you know, there are always extremes in the sense that, you know, sometimes there are kind of political environments where, you know, things change. And for whatever reason, kind of this, like anti-growth, like say no to everything mindset comes in or something, you know, and no growth candidate runs. And so it's just like, we don't care what it is, you know, we're against it. But for the most part, you know, reasonable people minds can come together. And I, my experience has been that if it truly, if my request is truly in the interest of trying to make something better, usually I can get the ear of planning and zoning council and even the public around that. So I do agree that some of that is shifting. I think the biggest problem in preventing that, you know, that

30:36more flexible approach is that there's a lot of terrible development happening. There's just a, you know, it is the exception that something is done really well, not in any way the rule. And so, which is very unfortunate, and that's, you know, in terms of how to solve that, that's a, you know, we're back to our, you know, getting the kind of the more quiet majority to speak up, I guess, and pay attention. And maybe that's, you know, a function of, you know, raising awareness and I think a lot of times people don't realize how much their voice, like one voice can actually change the direction of something. Like, I don't think people, I think people generally feel like, you know, hey, I just, you know, I'm just one resident in this town. Nobody cares what I think.

31:37Nobody's going to listen to me, whatever. And it's just not true. Most people do not speak up. And when somebody does speak up, it, you know, for the most part, you know, the room will listen. A hunter, they really will. And, and we try to listen, you know, to what people are saying. I mean, as much as we can, you know, obviously it's, it's, everybody's got an opinion and sometimes we know better what is going to look good than the people we're talking to because we've done this for 25 years, you know, but certainly I think, yeah, I mean, I can't, you know, we're getting into a little bit of the ethereal realm. But I, I, I could say that, um, if there's, if there's any message that I could pass to the, you know, the people listening to this right now, it's, you know, it's to get engaged and get involved, even, even just, even if it's to like, you don't want to show up to the hearing right

32:38of letter, you know, you know, to just have your voice heard. The worst case scenario is, you, you know, you put it out there and, you know, it fell on deaf ears. The best case is that something gets picked up and you actually make an impact. Um, and I think you might be surprised. Now writing a letter is old school showing up to counsel's old school. Can you share just some of the challenges and maybe opportunities of social media and some of the environment that we've created? I do like in it to the way that in, you know, what the 70s and the 80s, they realized that a lot of smokers had a cough, but it was still not quite identified. Why, you know, there seem to be a relationship there. I think we have the same thing right now where we are in that like, huh, a lot of people have a cough, uh, you know, the equivalent of a cough, which is, I would say, a certain form of madness that social media induced. Um, and so it's both a blessing and a curse. It connects people, but it offers this sort of facsimile of human connection that's very different from in person connection.

33:40And we want to harness that, you know, we have strong town stuff going out on, on different podcasts and, uh, you know, social media channels and things like that. But we're also grappling with like this, this, this setting madness. And, and I would imagine this could be you mentioned that earlier, like some things are repeated about you or projects that you're working with that are simply untrue and just completely unmoored from reality. And yet it's this new, like challenge that we have to grapple with. How do you cope? Uh, what, what offers do you have for other people in terms of how they can cope? Um, but actually maybe I use tools like social media, uh, effectively. You know, the algorithm or, you know, are, are, whether it's mainstream or social media, are all geared towards fear, you know, and, um, and so, and I think that that's the reason why for a lot of people it's, there's two, there's two fundamental things. The reason why it's not really an effective way of communicating one is there's some level of distance created between in communication that

34:42allows people to, um, start to lose their level of humanity in terms of the person on the other end. It's like there's some distance created where I'm no longer feel like I'm communicating with another human being the way that I would if they were standing in front of me. Um, and, and, and that's problematic because, uh, you know, a lot of crazy vitriolic things are set online that would likely never occur if people were just sitting in the same room together. Um, and so my, my solution to it is to turn down the volume as much as possible. Um, you know, in my own world, I stay out of it generally. Um, you know, I, I enjoy engaging in the content. Um, but I stay out of the world of, uh, like reading comments and, you know, responding to comments and, you know, it's just not a productive place. Um, I, for me, I'm,

35:46yeah, I am old school. I go to the public hearings. I stand up there. I have conversations with people. I try to be there in person as much as I can, um, especially on a new project. Um, and try to connect with people on, you know, kind of a in person level, human level. Um, and so, you know, I, I, I, I think if you follow like the, the, I think Joe Rogan said, you know, post and ghost, like that's his strategy. Like don't, don't ever read the comments and just like, you know, get it out there. But I think, uh, I think this problem to some extent is going to solve it self a little bit. I'm, I'm generally optimistic about it because I think we're in this wave of like social media, kind of like novelty that came on over the last like, you know, 20 years and we're starting to realize, you know, that it's not the most effective communication tool and people are starting to, it's less than, it's, it's effectiveness. So what are they doing? They're turning up the volume

36:49on the fear algorithm to try to continue to keep the attention and the eyeballs and I think eventually, you know, a lot of people just get sick of it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and like you said, if one of the keys is in person conversations and making sure that there are enough public spaces for that third place is that people can come to, I, I see that like woven into the projects that you're working on and taking on maybe as we come to a close here, I just ask like, as, as you think about people that may want to like follow in your footsteps or sort of adapt this for their own efforts, what are some things that you would recommend for people that want to build meaningful places or really be able to be proud when they answer like, what am I leaving behind that they have a really good answer for that? Do you want to share just some thoughts this way as we close out? Sure. I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, what is your fundamental philosophy on, you know, the kind of the the whole question of like why we're here, I honestly. And if you know, if you

37:51believe in the materialist paradigm and this idea that, you know, we're all just, you know, kind of, you know, matter and, you know, we, we, we, we were dirt and we're going back to dirt, then I think it's, you know, and there's nothing after that, honestly, then I think you're more likely to subscribe to the mindset of like, you know, I could care less about my legacy, I got to get it well, I can, you know, it's a zero sum game and, you know, winner take all. And I think that's really unfortunate that that thinking has kind of been pervasive, you know, a bit, but I see that changing. And I see that, you know, people are starting to realize that, you know, that we're, there's some level of connection that exists between all of us. And that we, it's really important that we care about other people. It's really important that we, the, the, the things that we do have an impact on others and we need to, you know, be conscious of that and aware of that and that we

38:56should really care about what that impact is. And I think that it's really important that people understand that, you know, like when you go and admire something, you know, and, and look at its beauty, you know, something that's been around for a long time, you know, think about, you know, the level of, just, I guess, the, being fulfilled in knowing that you've done something like that. Just because you, you know, something is possible, doesn't mean it's optimal, you know, just because you can do a project and make this return on your money and go on and do it again, doesn't mean that's necessarily the best way to do it. And I, you know, I, I, I don't know how to teach this, and that's why I say it comes back to an underlying philosophy. But, you know, for me, you know, legacy is important because, you know, like when I'm long gone, I want people to know that, like,

39:58you know, obviously this guy, you know, had some sense of like, you know, aesthetic beauty and community and all of these things and like clearly he cared about that. You know, it doesn't mean everything I did was, you know, spot on or right. But like, you know, I, there's a clear demonstration of effort and a clear level of like caring and honestly, I just, you know, in the, being just constantly inundated with like fear and fear and fear, like, which is, you know, all rededing back to that conversation, I think it's like, it pushes people into this kind of individualistic, you know, materialist mindset. And I think it's, I think it's terrible. I think it's one. I think it's completely wrong. Right. It's not true. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And I love that because, you know, if our goal is to, you know, leave the world a better place than we left, than we found it. That, you know, there's truth in that, but it also feels so grand. And I think what is so compelling

41:00about like all of these efforts that we're doing is we're actually saying, let's, let's bring that in of like leave our places better than we found them. And when we do that, we have myriad ways to be able to do that. And you don't have to tackle the world's biggest problem in order to have found a measure of success and value in doing that. And so I just, I love this. I feel like we could go in for much longer, but I want to honor your time and I really appreciate the opportunity. I do hope that we will find ourselves soon at a table enjoying a beer together. And just thank you further because it's been fantastic. Thank you for coming on bottom-up revolution. Yeah. I really appreciate you having me. Very interesting conversation. Great to be able to do it. And so if folks are interested in learning more, definitely check out convergence communities or the greenery project in Milton and a number of other opportunities. We'll share some of those in the show notes afterwards and keep doing what you can as you in your community are taking note of, hey, here are the real opportunities to make a difference. This is the type of

42:02work that strong towns is here to support you in, to participate with you and to be able to share those stories. And so much like Colby is doing a take note of those opportunities. And with that, take care and take care of your places. This episode was produced by Strong Towns, a non-profit movement for building financially resilient communities. If what you heard today matters to you, deep in your connection by becoming a Strong Towns member at Strong Towns.org slash membership.