The Big Conversation: Doubt, Discipleship, and Following Jesus in the Internet Age

0:00I guess I take him to mean we are being formed and shaped in the image of this thing called the internet, right? When we're talking to the next generation, to remind them that God can intervene at any time, it's ongoing, it's not happening in a way where it's always so apparent to us. She prayed for those to be removed and some students were there with her and after they prayed, she lifted her sleeves and the scars were completely gone. Was this the reminder like God saying, hey, I still do these things. I'm still at work in people's lives. If I didn't have those summer camp experiences, I wouldn't be the person that I am today, but to expect those experiences on a daily basis, I don't, I get the sense that that's not the kind of person God wants me to be. He wants me to become someone that can trust him, even when I don't have those experiences. You know, one of the people who I have witnessed pray for faith to overcome doubt only to not receive it

1:01is me. But here I am many years later, feeling at peace with those doubts and feeling like those prayers were answered. This month, we're spotlighting the work of discipleship that parents, youth pastors and other adults do in the lives of the next generation. We've got an upcoming podcast conversation with Dr. Cara Powell about faith formation in Jin Alpha. A new episode of our YouTube show about how Jin Alpha processes life and faith and another on the philosophical and theological question of why does God allow pain and suffering. We're promoting a new video conversation kit that we created on the topic of miracles and what God's involvement in the world today looks like. And here on this episode, we're asking the question, how do we talk to a skeptical generation about discipleship and the reality of the spiritual world? I'm Evan Barber and I'm here today with Kate Watson and Jenna Mendel who are joining remotely

2:05as well as for the first time on the podcast Brock Trexler who has been a youth pastor for 10 years as a masters in spiritual formation from friends university and is also a dad of two. Brock, thanks for joining. Absolutely. It's great to be here. I'm grateful for the work that Axis is doing to equip people like me. Let me thank you, by the way. Let me start with this as a sort of opening concept that we can kick around. In John Eldridge's newest book, which is called Experience Jesus Really, he argues that many of us today have become what he calls disciples of the internet, which he describes as different from being the disciple or follower of any particular internet personality, but refers to a kind of soul formation that happens through time spent with the internet as a whole. He writes this, discipleship to the internet has shaped your

3:06soul to expect immediate answers to your questions, given you a deep suspicion to all forms of mystery, fueled your addiction that the practical is the real stuff of life while eroding your confidence that you can know anything for certain because yesterday's facts are savagely overturned. First question to the group. Does anyone strongly agree or strongly disagree with this picture of internet discipleship that Eldridge paints here? I feel both deeply called out and curious to hear more. I'm right now just having here heard this quote for the first time, turning the premise over in my mind. I think I agree with the symptoms, Eldridge,

4:07identifying, but I wonder in absence of the internet if those symptoms would remain, like can we say that the internet is the primary cause? Are we, because if we're being discipled by the internet, would that then mean that we worship the internet? Well, that's an interesting question. I suppose maybe it could mean that. I guess I take him to mean we are being formed and shaped in, for lack of a better phrase, the image of this thing called the internet, right? One of the things I hear you saying as well, Kate, is the internet the only thing that makes us expect immediate answers to our questions. It's not as if there was no instant gratification in our society and then all of a sudden the internet showed up and now we're fully there, right? Am I hearing you right? The trends he's pointing out in terms of discipleship,

5:12soul formation. We're kind of already at play before the World Wide Web took off. I think so. I think I'm having an internal debate with myself if what Eldridge is describing is simply human tendency. What do you guys think? You were going to say something earlier, Brock, what's up? What are you thinking about this? I actually think Eldridge is getting at something that's been around for a while, something that probably some symptoms of post-Christian culture that the internet is either heightening or highlighting in some specific ways. I think the tendency toward immediacy has been there for a while. I think the tendency towards pragmatism does this apply to my everyday ordinary life right now and if I have to wrestle with something for too long, then I kind of have to throw it out because it doesn't apply right now. I think even just the deep suspicion there's, I think ever since the enlightenment for all of its gifts,

6:13the suspicion around mystery, living in a disenchanted world, have always kind of been there. I think what the internet has done is it's given us a larger platform to ask those questions or to kind of speed up that process of just recognizing, no, it's a quicker coming to a conclusion of like, oh, it is disenchanted. So I think these are kind of Eldridge is pointing at what's been around for a while, but the internet has just absolutely heightened and turned the volume up to 11 quite a bit. And I guess if we want to talk about the atmosphere of suspicion, we could probably go all the way back to Genesis 3, right? And the serpent kind of, did God really say, don't eat from any tree or that type of thing? Kate, does that? Do you feel like what Brock said is kind of what you were getting at there? Yeah, I think it's a tremendous quote and a great thing to open this conversation with.

7:19I wonder though if some of what we're describing to being disciples of the internet could be being disciples of read, satisfaction, money, be equally applied. Curious your thoughts, Jenna, are you resonating with the responses so far? Or do you see this differently? Yeah, I think for me as someone, so I'm 24, so I have grown up with the internet for the most part. And anytime I had a question, I could just like Google it, but I feel like even in junior high and high school, for me, I would try to look things up, but then I never really found good information. So I was just like, okay, whatever. And then I would talk to my youth pastor or talk to my youth group leaders when it came to like faith questions. And then now with TikTok and AI

8:20specifically, there's like an infinite amount of information to distill through. And so I really resonate with the quote I think because when I think about how hard it was for me to navigate those things and how there's not really a question of like, I'm thinking about when your kid is really little, my mom would talk to me about this. So I don't have kids. So I don't know. But my mom would say there's like an age where your kids are asking you how everything works. And I remember her talking about like, my brother being like, so how do like light switches work? And she was like, I've literally never thought about that. Like, I don't know. And now there's the sense of, oh my gosh, Kate's holding up a book that says how everything works. That's amazing. My kids are in that phase, go on. And I think for my mom, she would be like, oh, like she would she would think about it and be like, well, electricity, you know, runs through the through the walls. Like she's kind of putting it together just based on on what she knows. But now, I mean, you can look it up and know immediately. Like for me, anytime I'm sitting in a group and they're like, I wonder about this.

9:24I'm like, we can literally just Google it. Like, why are we sitting here like that? So I tend to be that kind of person. And it's probably just like my journalism brain of like, I can figure out the answer. I can just research and figure it out. And so I think for me, I resonate with the quote because I'm someone that's like insatiably curious and grew up on the internet. So if I were to read between the lines of Eldridge's idea here, it seems like what he's saying is that our ability to get these kind of rapid answers today to whatever questions that we have make it harder for us to tolerate the the mystery of interacting with an eternal creative being and the mystery of what does it mean to try to follow this being? And that that dynamic you were just describing there, Jenna is actually putting us at a disadvantage when it comes to orienting our souls toward God. Does that seem true as well? Yeah, there's this idea of like

10:28there's an answer to everything. And you can find it if you just have the right information. I think for the most part, especially with the emphasis in the quote about like the practical and things like that, that's what I see among girls my age for sure. Even my Christian friends, there's this sense of like, okay, I can just do enough research and I will come to like the best answer, which is a really good posture to have. And we have access to like the most information than any or yeah, more information than any other generation in history, but we're all not very informed. It seems like or we're just inundated. Like there comes a point where it's just too much. Yeah, there's a lot of information to sort through and it can be kind of overwhelming almost. So, so then okay, my next question and maybe open it back up to to Brock and Kate, we've touched on this a bit already, but what specifically is different about this dynamic that Eldridge is pointing out from what discipleship to Jesus has maybe more traditionally looked like?

11:32Yeah, I think even just the the idea of discipleship becoming an apprentice, a student of Jesus who was a rabbi. The idea of immediacy, I want to be immediately changed or transformed, has to be rethought. Jesus used metaphors and illustrations about agriculture and walking and really slow processes. And then even in the like speaking to the practical or pragmatic piece of what Eldridge is getting at, he was he was totally fine letting people wrestle through things. That's what the parables are about. So, it wasn't here's here's all the information you need. It is hey, I'm going to give you a story. The kingdom of God is like this. And I want you to wrestle through it because actually in that wrestling, there's a transformative process taking place. And you look at Jesus' teachings and he is he's a master teacher, but not all of it was

12:38extremely pragmatic. It left people confused, wondering sometimes they left him. They're like, we can't do this. So, I think traditionally discipleship to Jesus is entering a long, slow process with wrestling through what it means to to live in God's good world, what it means to follow Jesus, what it means to love other people, which takes time and wisdom and engagement with mystery, which is which are muscles that I think in post-Christian culture were not we're not used to kind of working. Okay, what would you say? Those are really great thoughts, Brock. When I reflect on my own journey, it's hard not to see the moments where I mistook something being hard with something being wrong, being frustrated with moments in my faith journey when I just couldn't seem to quickly get past the doubt I felt or the sin I was

13:42wrestling with or even the understanding I was trying to find about who God is. And I think that was reinforced not just by a culture that expects immediacy, but also even a church framework where if we feel confused or we can't find an answer, sometimes the implication is well then you just didn't approach it right or you didn't have the right teacher or you didn't find the right material. The truth is sometimes it's supposed to take a long time. Because the assumption baked into that potential response is an immediate answer should be available if only you had done your faith right. Yeah, I mean this is perhaps a clumsy, a clumsy memory to illustrate the point, but I'm thinking about the time I spent at Christian summer camp, how you would get there and we would all get excited about the things that we were

14:47going to learn about Jesus and the friendships we were going to make. And then at the end of five or six days, you would sit around a campfire and if you didn't have some sort of spiritual revelation to share with the group, then a guest camp didn't work. Why'd you come and I kind of think that a week is not probably long enough to have a spiritual understanding that will really transform the way you approach life. Maybe if you're a kid, definitely probably not if you're an adult and beyond that, this tendency to want people to just consume and then react over and over again, that's not really the example of Jesus. Jenna, it seems like part of that was resonating with you as well. Yeah, totally. I was the kid at summer camp that was like trying to have the best thing to say. So that's really funny. But that you did too, Jenna. Thanks. Yeah, I mean, I was

15:54that kid and then I like went to college and then I was dealing with a lot of family breakdown and these other things that were happening and then I wasn't experiencing those things and I then was like, okay, where's God now? Like I'm confused. And realizing that our faith, we need to have more of a developmental understanding of our faith, just like we have development of psychology and development of these other things. And when you're thinking when you when you have kids and you're looking at you can see how their understanding of faith is really good and God meets them in their development and how we don't really have a frame for that. I think once we become adults and that's something I am thinking about a lot. I'm taking a class on developmental spirituality. Brock, I'm also studying spiritual formation. I know you already studied it, but I'm studying that right now. And it's really helping me because I think for so long, especially in the evangelical spaces I grew up in, it's this idea of like plug in the right information or experience and the

16:58right output will come out without a sense of like, what does God want to teach me right now? Because maybe what God is trying to show me won't be I'm not going to be able to say at the end of the week what it is. I might take a couple of years or might take more time. And I think that's why when we're seeing the rise of I forget what we were reading this week. We were talking about as a team the stat about young young adults and teens going to going to AI feeling more comfortable going to AI rather than like a youth pastor or a leader and things like that. And I think we just want to get an answer for why. And I think a lot of that is because we've grown up, at least for me, I feel like a lot of times with my youth pastor, there was a clear answer. Okay, here's why God's not showing up. Oh, it's because I'm not reading my back, but okay. But then when you're doing all those things, then he feels far away. It's like, oh, I need to sit with someone and actually discern what's happening here. And that can't happen with AI. But it feels really scary

17:58to say like, I don't I don't feel God at all. Like, what does that mean? And what's wrong with me? It tends to just be like, I need to do my part. And then God will do his part. And that's not what our spiritual journey is meant to be. But that is just complicated and hard. So we don't want to. Right. At the for listener context, the thing Jenna was alluding to was by the time this podcast airs last week, we were talking about a study from Barna and the tech platform glue that found that about 40% of Gen Z and millennials say spiritual advice from AI can be just as trustworthy as advice from a pastor and talked a little bit about how many young adults say they already use AI tools for prayer, Bible study, spiritual questions, things like that. Insert scream scream. I'm curious, Brock, in your work in youth ministry,

19:02to what extent do you see these dynamics playing out with the teens that you get to work with? Is it, do you see a lot of similar kinds of threads as what Jenna is bringing up here? Does it, does it look different in your experience? Yeah, that's a good question. I think, I think it's taken different shapes over time, but I think what I've had to work really hard to do is to do my part to craft an environment where, where students can wrestle. And where, where volunteers are more than just warm bodies in the room to meet a ratio, where they are coaches, they are wise mentors, they are people that I trust to have my own conversation with, or to want my own kids to have a conversation with when they get older as well. And so I'm very picky about who is, who are mentors to our students. But then I'm constantly trying to push students to go to those

20:02those mentors as well. I think it's just, I think having an engagement with the harder conversations, I love Jenna, your stuff about developmental spirituality. I think for me, middle school ministry, because middle school students can't really think abstractly, it's a lot of black and white answers. So things like catechism, you know, working through the meta narrative of the Bible, kind of question and response with space to wrestle in between there has seemed to be very helpful for middle school students. Like what are the, what's the story you're a part of? What are the foundations of our faith? I think high school ministry, if middle school is black and white, it's kind of the invitation into the gray of faith, the tensions. And these are a lot of the more difficult conversations around spiritual conflict or gender and sexuality, or sometimes they'll just will navigate what does it look like to have doubt as a teenager and to create a space, a boundary space where we all have agreed upon expectations of how we show up to that space, and how we show up with each other and listen to each other is super important. But it also,

21:07I think the difficulty is these conversations take time. And in a culture where, you know, the average church goer is going to church one point five times a month, it can make that really difficult if they're only showing up every other week or only in some of those spaces. I think that's the tension I'm kind of feeling is knowing what is a student need at this point in their spiritual development, but also what is the reality of where culture is at? And how do you, how do you try to find some middle ground there? But yeah, in a couple of weeks, we'll post a conversation with Dr. Carapal that I just recorded right before this. And one of the points that she was emphasizing pretty strongly is this idea that for young people in the faith formation journey, you talk to a processing doubt, sometimes in the high school range, maybe more specifically, that doubt is not toxic to faith. What is toxic to faith is silence. And when there is not a

22:11context and a space in which the questions that come up can be processed and addressed, that feels like a really important word for this. This topic, as we're talking about the long slow work of spiritual formation and spiritual development is that then there will be maybe questions that will come up and maybe they don't have to be answered immediately, you know, as much as we might want to go to an AI platform to get the immediate best answer to the question. It seems like sometimes what matters more is having an environment in which those questions and uncertainties can be absorbed. Yeah, and it's interesting to Evan in the study I was talking about. I'm sure if you still have it pulled up, you can say it better than me, but it was talking about the reason why they're going to AI. I believe was that it was they were always available and that they were non-judgmental. And obviously we can't be always available because we have other things going on

23:16in our life. But I think when we think about what it means to disciple the next generation, maybe that's like you have coffee with them once a month. Like even if you're margin is smaller, like having a set time so they know like, okay, I can talk to them about this then. And really practicing like your face, we were talking about this yesterday, practicing your face when whether it's your teen or another teen tells you something that you're like, OMG, what? But not showing that on your face. And I think a lot of times we think that being non-judgmental doesn't that doesn't take away from having a moral opinion on what they share. Like if a teen shares that they were doing drugs, you can be alarmed by that, but it's not ultimately helpful in that moment to be like, you are bad. Why did you do that? Because they already know that you think that like pretty certainly that they're coming to their youth later already is pretty brave. And so trying to practice that because I think a lot of times, and I think this is really true

24:20in secular culture of like non-judgment just means like affirmation. And that's not true. I think we need to have a better theology of that and what that means in a Christian space. And it's not like thumbs up awesome job way to go. But even being like, I wonder if you feel guilty about that. I wonder what your parents think about that. And still sharing with them, I think what your opinions are on that. But I think that's not, well, I think that's why they're going to AI is because they want to be affirmed in their choice, obviously, because AI, that's just how that works. But I think we can find a way of caring for them by listening without judgment, but also without affirming them. It sounds like maybe one of the things you're getting at Jenna has the idea of being quick to listen and a bit slower to speak as James 119 puts it. And so important, harder every day to maintain that skill. But so important. Everyone, I'm breathed here at Access. I just wanted to

25:27jump in and let you know that this podcast episode is made possible by the table, a community of monthly givers fueling accesses mission to keep every resource free for families everywhere. We receive stories like this one all the time. I'm a mom of a 15 year old and we listen to accesses podcasts constantly on our drives. Periodically, we'll pause them to talk about what we're learning or to engage some of the conversation starters they provide. It has transformed our car rights together. We want to invite you to join the table and to be a part of helping parents and teams just like this story build lasting faith together one conversation at a time. Join our community today at www.access.org.acslash the table. I want to weave another layer into this conversation. Part of that initial quote that I read was about the idea that we can be addicted to the notion that the practical is the real stuff of life.

26:28And I'm both agree with that part and kind of have questions about it because I think that our faith should be affecting our real life. It shouldn't just be about some sort of impractical idea that is projected out into the next life. But that does segue into a conversation about kind of the spiritual nature of this topic. And I wanted to throw a question to you Kate and I want to base my question around two recent studies because I know how much you like quantitative data. First of all, there was a 2023 Pew Research Center survey which found that eight out of 10 Americans believe there is something spiritual beyond the natural world. There was also a 2023 Gallup study which found that quote, the percentage of Americans who believe in God,

27:29angels, heaven, hell, and the devil has fallen by double digits since 2001. Though clear majority still believe in them. For example, 69% for angels and 58% for Satan. My question to you Kate, as you hear those two different studies, those two different pieces of research. How do you understand the data between those two? And is there a story that emerges for you? Evan, I'm really glad that you asked me a question that involved two studies. You know how much I love a good study. I'm curious about the methodology and the sample size. I feel like that would probably answer some of the question because while it makes sense to me that the idea of people who believe in Dante's version of angels and demons is starting to diminish,

28:32I think it also doesn't invalidate the fact that more and more people are examining their modern lives. And without a spiritual component, finding those lives deeply lacking, I know that before on the podcast we've talked about this idea of the God-shaped whole. And there's some research coming out from Ryan Burge. I think that's how you say his name and a sorry, Jenna. It doesn't matter. I mean, no offense for Ryan. Sorry if you're listening, Ryan. Yes. If you're listening, Ryan, get at us. You can be on the next episode of the conversation to my claims. So basically that research, which is sponsored by the Templeton Foundation, has been showing that there are some people who don't feel a God-shaped whole at all. They just, that assumption that there's all these people who feel like something is missing,

29:33isn't necessarily true for everybody. We can't apply that across the board. But that same data shows us there are people who feel deeply, there's something missing. God is the thing that I think that I need, even if I don't want to go to church to get it. So I, to answer your question more directly, Evan, I think the answer is that our perception of what God is, who God is for, how he exists is changing as a culture. I think we're more likely to accept different ideas of God, different names for him. I think a more universal idea of spirituality is very appealing to young people who have grown up being taught to manifest. But I also think that there's probably much different methodology applied to the pure data and the Gallup survey,

30:37which would inform us more about why the results look so different. Well, it occurs to me that somebody could believe that there is something spiritual beyond the natural world without necessarily feeling like I also have a hole in my heart that that something has to fill, right? I mean, as you alluded to with the sort of proliferation is the right word. But the practices around things like manifesting on TikTok and so on have, I think at least for some, maybe Gen Zers, let me know if I'm over-generalizing Gen Z too much. Kind of contributed to this idea that the spiritual world is kind of a, maybe a little more of like a playground, maybe a little more of a kind of an echo chamber. It's a thing you can use

31:39to get what you want, right? There's, you can manifest something in the universe or whatever we want to call the thing, we'll just give that back to you. Evan, your use of the term playground, this is my suspicion that more and more young people feel like, yeah, I can get on board with there being a spiritual realm. But it's not that serious. I'm really curious if Brock would have any insight into that since he works directly with you. Yeah, I think, again, I'll speak generally not absolutely. It is, I think for people who are newer to faith or newer to spirituality, there is this kind of subtle, undercurrent that I think Evan was getting at that the spiritual realm exists to serve me. So when I manifest something, it exists for me. I think we know the inherent dangers of that, that there are different powers

32:44that play that have their own will, that do not exist to serve you. And so I think for me, this is one of the more common questions I get even amongst our teenagers is how does the spiritual realm work? What are the relational dynamics? What are some of the, are there spiritual laws at place that got as put in place as well? These are some conversations that we have had in our youth ministry in the last couple of years that have required a lot of humility, but also study, but also there is a deep well of people out there who have researched, who have had their own experiences. There is, there is a body of knowledge out there that is there. We just have to be willing to engage in that conversation. But I think, like the undercurrent is there, it exists to serve me because I have this worldview where I am at the center of the universe. And therefore, they submit to me instead of me kind of, submit not submitting to it,

33:52but I am a part of something much bigger than just myself. Right. And Brock, I won't ask you to give the definitive answer that can be offered to how the spiritual world works for people who want to ask that question, but how do you navigate those conversations? Like if a, say, a 16-year-old girl comes up to you and they're like, how does the spiritual world work? I mean, where do you even start in responding to that? Yeah, I think recognizing that it is, it is gods, it belongs to God. So it is under the authority, the rule, and the reign of God. It's kind of the starting place. This was God's idea. But also the physical and the spiritual work in tandem with each other. And so even with Eldridge's quote that there's the practical, maybe some people have this dualistic idea that there's the practical and in the spiritual, those two work in tandem with each other. And often there's a lot of overlap. But I think even, I mean, just to get into some of the

34:57technical dynamics of it, like being able to define some terms, like what do we mean by spirit? Dallas Willard says it's unbottily personal power. So it's unbottily in that it's not confined to a body. It can exist apart from a body. It's personal in that it can have a will. And it's power in that has the capacity to affect change. But there are beings in the spiritual world and us being created an image of God that we are spirit. And the goal of us coming into alignment with the kingdom of God is bringing our spirit under the rule and reign of God and how his world works. So I think just even like, can we define terms? Like I have a great student in my youth group who just will ask like the most basic questions like what is spirit? What is spiritual? Or what is love? And she really makes me think because I'm like, oh, I've just been saying these

35:57words and I can't assume that we're all on the same starting ground with these words. Yeah, that's so important because it can be so easy to just use these terms that maybe in a Christian environment have become more familiar. But when someone is maybe newer to that environment, it's like, I don't know what you're talking about. So what are we even talking about? Okay, so my next question is to you, Jenna, if you were to kind of describe, you know, you know, Brock is kind of talking through how a lot of the questions that he gets from his students, who sounds like would be a blend of Gen Z and Gen Alpha, right, are about how does the spiritual world work? And what are these dynamics? If you were to describe how your generation thinks about Jesus and the idea of discipleship more broadly, what would be some of the major themes or categories that would come up for you? Would you say that in your experience

36:58as a Gen Z or would you say that your generation tilts more towards skepticism about these dynamics or maybe being a little, maybe too spiritually open, like how, where do you see Gen Z on this conversation? Yeah, I think with spirituality, generally very open, I went to a Christian college. So I was kind of in like a Christian bubble for a wee bit. And then after that, I worked at an ice cream shop, really put my journalism degree to use there. And I was, it was a great time, but it was the first time that I had worked among or just been in like a community of non, like all non Christians, pretty much, since high school. And it was really good because as we can spend so much time online and be like, this is what Gen Z thinks. And then it's like, well, you have to actually talk to them and know them. And they're very smart and very thoughtful. And I, from most of my conversations with them, and I'd be very open about my faith,

38:02most of them were very open. And even I've heard this idea of like, I wish that I felt connected to God or like I wish I kind of had this spirituality, but they just didn't. Or they kind of did feel that, but they didn't want the restrictions, obligations of traditional religion. And so I think that for, or yeah, more organized religion, I guess, that just felt, it feels restrictive. Just because my generation is really big on freedom and autonomy. And so the idea of committing yourself to a religion is kind of odd and confusing, I think, for a lot of them. But I also think that there's a lot of respect to amongst Christians and people of other faiths. But even I had a scenario where, where I live, there is a very, it's kind of connected with why I'm very charismatic. It's called circuit writers. And so they came in at Salt and Strow where I worked.

39:04And they were getting ice cream, you know, wearing all like their I heard Jesus sweatshirts. And then they were outside. And they were praying for each other. And I was like, overhearing both of my coworkers. And they were both like a year or two younger than me at this time. I was like 22. And they were like, yeah, like they think that like they're talking to God right now. And like they were just talking about it. And I literally to them was like, you guys, you can just ask me like, I'm right here. And they were like, oh, sorry. Like they're just kind of, it's so like hypothetical to them, I think. And I think there's a lot of interest, but also like confusion, especially because so many people my age didn't grow up with any religious context. And so I think they're just like, oh, like what like when they encounter in the real world. And then I remember one of them was like, well, my roommate grew up Christian. So like, this is what they mean. And like, blah, blah. And they were just talking about it. And it was funny. But yeah, I think there's a lot. I don't think there's one clear consensus. I think there's a lot of there's a big variety of opinions on spirituality and faith. But I think overall people see

40:10spirituality as something that's good. And some there is something intangible. I think that is something that most people my age would agree with. Yeah, that, you know, it's, it makes perfect sense that it turns out you can't boil all of Gen Z down to one answer. What a shock. I thought I'd try though. I'm curious about your use of the word hypothetical, Jenna. It's intriguing to me. It's almost like I was thinking about the way that social media algorithms can kind of keep us preserved in patterns of content that more or less can preserve things that we already tend to think and gravitate towards. And I was kind of almost hearing that in your answer that, oh, yeah, hypothetically, someone could believe in God, but I've never had encountered with that or direct exposure to that type of. You're kind of insulated from it. And

41:14so then when you, like, the way that they were looking at it and talking about it was like those people on TV on like the nature shows. And they're like, and now they went for that prey. Like, it was kind of like that. It almost felt like even though they obviously don't have authority on the topics, that kind of falls apart pretty quickly. But there was this idea of like this thing that they don't really understand that they're observing. Right, right. Let me weave in another layer here. And I'll direct this to you, Kate. So one of the resources that we're releasing, or at least talking about more this month is a video series on the topic of miracles, right, which goes right into this, what questions of the spiritual world working in tandem with physical world and the intersections of all these different dynamics. But you and I have both talked about how we believe miracles are real. And yet neither of us feel like we've had those

42:15sorts of experiences in our lives. What do you see as a maybe healthy perspective to teach regarding the concept of divine intervention with the next generation? I want to make sure that I'm characterizing my experience in a way that I think could be helpful. I think the fact that I am a Christian at all is a miracle. When I look through the span of my life, the fact that I still wake up and want to choose Jesus, even though I don't always do a good job is a hundred percent miraculous and a testament to the fact that God is intervening in my life in a real way. I think sometimes what I struggle with is when I look at people I've known through my life, people who have been close to me, who have prayed for a miracle, and from my perspective, as a citizen

43:21of Earth, deserved one, quote-unquote, if anyone did, and nothing happened. You know, they continue to suffer, feel pain, be isolated. I've even seen people pray for faith and never receive it, which is particularly heartbreaking to see. But I think it is healthy and appropriate when we're talking to the next generation to remind them that God can intervene at any time in a way that feels acute, you know, it feels dramatic, it feels like swooping in, it feels like a marvel movie where God is your rescuer and you really can't believe it. But also, it's God's intervention is chronic, it's ongoing, and it's not happening in a way where it's always so apparent to us from our

44:22perspective, stuck in the space-time framework. I try to let my kids know that God's power and his everywhereness are going to look different from our perspective than the reality of his action. In other words, everything God does is good and right. It might not always look or feel miraculous. Sometimes it will, though. Can you guys help me articulate this? What's your perspective? I've seen some nods from Brock. What are your thoughts? Yeah, I think framing this in what the New Testament describes the present age and the age to come. You know, I think we've primarily described, you know, the spiritual realms as heaven, hell, and earth in between. But the New Testament talks about the present age, which is characterized by evil, darkness, and death, injustice, brokenness. It's the pain we feel, but also the age to come when

45:27God will make everything new and just recognizing we are in the overlap of those two points right now. We are in the messy middle. And I think helping students or just people in general recognize the tension that comes with living in the middle. There are people who have experienced divine... Can I share a story? Please. This was so encouraging to me because I had forgot that God still works in these ways, to be honest. I was at a youth conference here in town at a church that I deeply respect and they do a youth conference every year for a few thousand students and they spend the mornings doing worship and intercession. So it's not like a big, like there's a big teaching and there's a big speaker, but it's just people praying and worshipping and it's a beautiful time in that room on those mornings. One of the mornings, I was asked to pray for physical healing in the room. And I was trying to like, I was navigating all these tensions, but also recognizing, I need to

46:29pray for this, that this is something that God still does want to heal. And so I got... Why didn't you want to? Can you just say, why didn't you want to do that? Because I have felt the tension of being with people who have prayed for healing and did not receive it in the immediate. I have an older brother with a chronic illness. I am very aware of the reality of the present age and it's... We live with one foot in it. So for me, I just... I didn't want to do harm to people who might pray for healing, but not get it in that moment. So even before I pray, there were some caveats that I had to do in saying that all earthly healing is temporary. There will come a day where you will die that you will get sick again, but also recognizing the kingdom of God is here and now. And the Holy Spirit is at work and God wants to break in in some miraculous ways. So I kind of framed it with these caveats, but then just had students raise their hands if they

47:32wanted healing. And so I prayed for healing in the room, had students lay hands on each other as they were praying over each other. And I walked off the stage after it happened and I was like, all right, cool. Guess I'll never know what happened. And please don't hear this as like a... It was not my prayer because I walked off the stage and it was just... I had that thought of like, all right, nothing happened. Guess I didn't work again. But there was a youth pastor who came up to me the next morning at a youth leader breakfast and said, her scars are gone. And I was like, that's great, but you got to give me more. Like, what do you mean? Like, can you please tell me that there had been a student who was engaged in self-harm for a number of years. And for her, the scars were just the reminder of... They brought up the shame, the guilt, the isolation. And she prayed for those to be removed and some students were there with her. And after they prayed, she lifted her sleeves and the scars were completely gone. And for me, I'm just like...

48:36I am trained because of post-Christian culture to be skeptical. That's the first response. But for me to like celebrate with this youth pastor in that moment. And just to like receive what was shared to me was just the reminder of like God saying, hey, I still do these things. I'm still at work in people's lives. But there is still an ongoing work to happen with this student, right? All earthly healing is temporary. But even I wouldn't say this to someone's suffering face to face. But there is a theology of how you grow through suffering that enlarges the soul that transforms you. That's what you actually get to take into eternity too. So there's another, I think there's a theology of suffering as well that we need to to partner with the theology of miracles and divine intervention. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so thank you for sharing that story. And yes, so many. That was such a good story. I mean, it just reminds me that you know, where we are, what we can see is just fixed in this such a limited point in time,

49:43right? So when we're praying for something to happen, we're praying in the context of our earthly bodies, but we're also praying in the context of eternity. You know, one of the people who I have witnessed pray for faith to overcome doubt only to not receive it is me. But here I am many years feeling at peace with those doubts and feeling like those prayers were answered and feeling like the period of suffering and silence that I experienced makes my faith feel so much more mine. We can't earn faith, but I feel like we can kind of plant our flag in it and say, you know, this is the color of the story and this is how it felt for me. And gosh, I wouldn't trade that for anything. That's, yeah, that's, that's awesome. Okay. Thank you. Um, sharing that.

50:44I want to maybe I'll ask a sort of general question. Maybe just to bring this conversation toward a close. I was going to just emphasize the practical John Eldridge has some words for you. I actually don't, I don't quite mean that. Well, in a way, I do. You'll see. Um, I just want to ask, is there anything else from any of your points of view that you think parents or other youth pastors or other caring adults should bear in mind in conversations with the next generation about discipleship and or the spiritual world as a whole. Jenna has her hand up. Jenna. Yes. This was kind of related to what Kate shared before Brock shared his awesome story. Thanks for sharing that. Um, about this curiosity about miracles, but then the sense of like it is a miracle that we are Christians and a miracle that we choose Jesus every day. And

51:48in my seminary program, there's a big emphasis on Romans 815. So I'm just going to read that and then I explain it a little bit. So it says, the spirit you received does not make you slaves so that you live in fear again. Rather, the spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him, we cry, oba father. And my seminary professor talks all the time about if you're wondering where God is, anytime you cry out to God, that is the spirit because it says by him, we cry out, oba father. And I think a lot of times we think it's on us. Like that, or it's not even that it's on us, but that it's us crying out to him. But it's like that's actually the spirit in us. And I think realizing that is a miracle in itself. And so when your kid is like, where is God, you can be like, that is God right there. And I think that's a really helpful way of framing it because a lot of times we think going back to like the summer camp thing of like locating God as an emotional experience, which it can be. I think that God meets us according

52:55to our development, according to our maturity. And I think if I didn't have those summer camp experiences, I wouldn't be the person that I am today, but to expect those experiences on a daily basis. I don't, I get the sense that that's not the kind of person God wants me to be. He wants me to become someone that can trust him, even when I don't have those experiences. And so I think that verse is like, it's pretty easy theology because it says, and by him, we cry out a father. And so I think that's really helpful to share with teens. I feel like that could have been really useful for me of like, especially if you have, and this is coming from like a very moralistic, legalistic, girly. So, you know, every kid is different, but for me it was always like, okay, if I do it perfectly, then God's going to show up. And then if I don't do it perfectly, he won't. And so this idea of like, of that of like, okay, if I pray a certain way, then this miracle will happen. And it's like, no, girl, you're not in charge of this. You're not driving this bus. I love that, Jenna. I would add that, I mean, this is just from my experience as mom, you know,

53:57my oldest is about to be 12. I have to remember that understanding God is sort of a primal thing. I really think that it's a lot of our human ideas that get in the way of asking the right questions to understand God. And I've been so surprised and humbled again and again by the questions my kids ask me about God. And more and more, I feel less led to meet their questions with certainty, not saying that it's okay to say, I don't know, that's just unknowable. Jesus is unknowable and lots of it is just unknown. But we can say, our sanctification is worked out

54:57through fear and trembling. And Paul talks all the time about the great mystery of it all. So when our kids are asking these questions and we meet them with more questions, Jesus modeled that for us. And I think I've seen some movement online to bring it back to the internet where if someone says they're they're wrestling or if they don't follow a certain faith tradition or they're not in agreement with certain Christian theology, the instinct is to just crush that person and say, you know, well, why not? This is settled, this is definitive. And and I get it, I do. But the other thing is maybe that person is on a journey still, right? So like that's not a cop out to say, I don't know yet. And I haven't arrived at that conclusion yet. So I think taking our applying our curiosity to younger people when they express doubt can be

56:06just such a tremendous tool. I want to have Brock speak into that. Yeah, I think I think if parents, mentors, youth pastors, really anyone who works with the next generation to help bridge that gap between the practical and the spiritual, but also finding God in my everyday life, kind of the summer camp experience is like the high of it. That's why I find God. So I got to get there. But what about a Monday morning? Where is God? I think if we can help students do a couple things, one is notice, just where is God at in my everyday life? And so if there are rhythms within families, I've just we're going to take a minute just to like sit and replay our day. Ignatius would call this the examine. Just walk through my day. What were the highs? The lows? What were the difficult parts of my day just to notice? And also where might God have been in that? So if the first thing is noticing, the second thing is witnessing. How do I share

57:11the story of where I saw God show up? Or how do I, how do I sit there as another sharing their own story of how God is showing up? So I think even in our youth ministry context, like how do you notice how God is showing up in silence? And this is a highly spiritual, this is spiritual warfare for the next generation just to sit there in silence. Like how do you notice your own internal battles or thoughts or things that are coming up, but also witness to what is coming up and to witness to how God might be in that? So I think just part of it is just attention. How do you help students pay attention to their everyday lives where God is in that, but also call attention to where God is showing up as well? Yeah. Guys, thank you so much for this conversation. This has been tremendous. It's been thought provoking. It's been dare I say practical in some instances. Listeners, I hope that you were encouraged. We'll put links in the show notes to some of the

58:14resources that I mentioned at the beginning of this episode. And of course, the podcast conversations a couple, particularly with Dr. Cara Powell will be coming up over the next couple of weeks. Thanks for caring about the next generation. And we hope that this conversation was an encouragement to you. Thanks so much for listening. This podcast is made possible because of our generous donor community called the table to help us support more parents and other caring adults through culture translation. We'd love to invite you to check it out by visiting us at access.org slash the table. Also, if you've been impacted by what we do, would you consider helping us get the word out by leaving a five star review on whatever podcast platform you use? And by sharing this episode with someone who you think it could benefit. Finally, you can now find our podcast on our YouTube channel, Access Conversations. And thank you so much for

59:19caring about having intentional conversations with the next generation.