Technology, Hunting, & Predator Management in Idaho with Tom Schneider

0:00Tom Snyder, how are you, sir? Good. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Having you again, because I was actually just looking this up this morning. You were episode like, you were one of my OG episodes. You took a, which I appreciate because, well, I won't look it up now, but you were like episode number 40 or 50. You took a shot on my show before I really had a show. You were one of the OG people were like, all right, this guy, little crazy, not that crazy, little crazy. I kind of am. Yeah. But you know, there was no reason for you to go out of your way, especially me being newer to the state, not understanding the world that you live in, which is very much hunting and we were talking about wolves, we were talking about a lot of different things. You, you know, came on the show and here we are, you know, full circle, you know, I kept at it for a while. You happen to be in town. God bless it, man. You came back on. Hey, thank you so much.

1:00Yeah. I'm excited. Yeah. So listen, one of the big things floating around right now with, with the state legislature is the hat, hat committee, right? So the hat committee, the hunting and advanced technology committee was a citizen led committee that was essentially put together by fishing game, right? Lot of different applications. You didn't have to be a hunter to be on it. I believe there are 20 people on it. And they said, look, let's get everybody together in the state. Let's get good people that can think through these things. We're going to give them a lot of survey information, hunters and non-hutters because obviously the big game belongs to everybody in the state, not just hunters. And let's figure out what our relationship with, things like drones, although we already have laws on drones, let's figure out our relationship with thermals, night vision, you know, long range, all the smart scopes, things of this nature. Let's figure out what to do with it because you could look to the West Coast states and say, all right, well, they're already like, let's not follow the West Coast states because those states are kooky dookie and I wouldn't disagree with you. But if you look at the states to our east and our south, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada, they all have more restrictive laws in place around this type of technology than we do.

2:06Towsamson very kindly came in several times. He was actually on the committee and he shared his thoughts and what he thought about the process and everything. But I wanted to ask you, you were not on the hack committee, but you're obviously an avid hunter and outdoorsman and, you know, you speak to people a lot about this. Talk to me about the hack. Yeah. By the way, I liked what he had to say because I listened to the podcast and I was like, I agree with, it may, if people saw some of my posts, they may think I 100% disagree with the hack committee. I actually don't disagree that technology is going too far. I don't disagree with a lot of what Tal was saying. Did I say his name right, Tal? Yeah, Tal. Yeah. I actually agreed a lot with what he was saying. I feel like what the issue is that Idaho is facing with hunting is that's just the tip of the iceberg, if that makes sense. And I know the hack committee too is, I mean, there's a lot of conversation.

3:06It's not out yet, but with the long range, the long range hunting too. And so there's just a lot of, I think the best way to say this is there, I think they're afraid to tackle the actual real issue, but let's focus on the current ones that they're dealing with. And then I'll tell you what I actually think we do need to focus on. Right. But the reality is, you know, I go back to saying this too and for those who don't know, we have a YouTube channel. Yeah, you're stuck in the rut. That's how I found you on Instagram. Right. You have the same YouTube handles. Correct? Right. So, yeah, stuck in the rut, we have, and on this, numbers don't mean anything, but I just figured I'd help share that, you know, I look this morning. So we're at 351,000 subscribers and just brush that shoulder off. Yeah, just brush the shoulder. Yeah. That's roughly 35 times my YouTube subscribers, just 35x. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. But we have a lot of good engagement and, you know, we're, we're Idaho residents.

4:06Well, my brother-in-law and sister, they moved to Alaska a few years ago, so now they're Alaska residents. They actually, um, trap two wolves yesterday. So that was really cool. So beautiful black one, alpha, and then a, and a female and so, um, if I may ask, where in Alaska? Um, so they live in the King Salmon area, um, but, you know, he has a, he's, he's a bush pilot. My brother-in-law is so they can fly a little bit everywhere out there and, and he's guys, they, uh, he's, he's put the skis on his, on his supercub, so I mean, it's, it's incredible. I mean, one of the, one of the, one of the reps, like a week though, he hits me up. He's like, hey, um, I got a plane. He's like, how about out of session, we get you like across the state, a bunch of different places? Well, funny is he aren't name places I've already driven to, like, my, my, and Alan stuff. That's funny. I was like, okay, I'm totally down to go anywhere, but do we have to fly? Like, do we have, like, I remember Kobe, like I, I don't know, man, those small plans.

5:10They're so cool, but it's just, I like my wheels on the ground. Oh, yeah. He, when you're with them, like when you're with a good pilot, you feel really comfortable and when I, when I'm with my brother-in-law, he, you feel so comfortable with him, right? That's a false sense of security. I could love your brother-in-law. I can think he's the best guy ever. I'm worried about flying, like experiencing the miracle of human flight in a teeny tiny plane. Yeah. That's, that's some stuff. I think when you, yeah, you know, and I agree with you and I get, so by the way, I do get sick pretty quick on planes and, but I guess if you're the pilot itself, I'm one of the very few members of my family that doesn't actually have a pilot's license. And so when I'm with them, though, it's almost like you feel like you're in a four wheeler in the air. It's like a four wheeler. It's either with wings. And it's like, hey, do you want to land there? It's like, yeah, sure. And then we just, we land on a sandbank, you know, or a riverbank. And I mean, but it's so cool. You could tell, the only way you could tell when he gets nervous if the weather's bad is

6:11when he starts chewing him is gum really fast. You just, you know, he'll still act really common when he's like, yeah, everything's fine. But if you see his gum chewing really fast, you start realizing, yeah, but we're, we're indeed, my hands are starting to sweat like I can. So that way it's going to get back. To give me some ideas when you're like, look, I don't, I largely don't disagree with Tao. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. What is the iceberg then? What's the problem? Okay. So, I mean, so I guess in a sense, let's talk about the current things that they're talking about, right, with the trail cameras and so on and so forth. Every, all these issues are a region, in my opinion, is a region to region basis issue, right? Like we look at the wolves, right? There is wolves, like in certain parts of Idaho, where the density is just insane. If you actually look at the harvest report, right, the majority of the wolves are taken out of just a couple units, the majority. And you look at the rest of the state, and that's where I, you get, you know, the last time I was on the podcast, you had guys like, dude, the oak numbers are fine. I don't know what you're talking about. There's oak everywhere in Idaho.

7:12And it's like certain parts of Idaho, yes, when I come down here, I have a love coming down here. I love hunting down here in Southern Idaho, because I'm like, there is a lot of elk. There is a lot of meal there. And then, you know, for where we live in the northern, more site of Idaho, you know, I spent a lot of time hunting the cell away, but your wilderness, clear water, St. Jill, you know, I spent a lot of time in that country, and that country is fairly infested. And also going back to what some of these laws that the hack community is trying to put forward, like they don't, they're not, again, the hack community made recommendations. They're recommended. Yeah, they just said, hey, fishing game, this is what we unanimously agreed on, and this is what we didn't unanimously agree on. And then the fishing game takes it from there. Yeah. And again, and I, and again, with everybody that's working on these laws and regulations and these proposals, dude, like days put in so much time to do this. So again, like when I, when I say these things, I'm like, dude, I appreciate all their time and helping out, of course. And I guess what I was saying and bringing about the YouTube, I understand that I, you're

8:15always going to have, hey, you're always going to have disagreements. Yes. People hunt an elk hunt, right? Where everything is to the tea, I kill the elk, lethally, like I don't, it's a close range shot. So I'm not shooting long range. So it's not controversial. I skin out the animal, I get them, everything is done properly. I'm still going to have a hunter that thinks you should have done that differently, you right? It's, so when I'm speaking, people may disagree with me, and that's okay. And it's important to have the conversation. Sure. And now that I've said that, let's go into some of these things. So let's like, for example, the trail cameras. You have to look at the pros and cons of everything. I do agree in certain areas and some of my friends that live down here, they've reached out and said, hey, you brought up on that podcast about your friend who's hunting bear off bait. Yeah. Right? And so he's got the trail camera. It beings him a photo and he goes to the bear bait, bear's still there. Boom. So it seems fairly, I mean, not on that, but I mean, yeah, it feels like that's not really

9:18fair for the bear. The concept of fair chase, if you observe that, you're like, is that fair chase? And a lot of people say, no, some people say it's fine. But again, that's the problem. Ethical or not, whatever, fair chase. Yeah. Is it fair? Is it not fair, right? Right. But I guess ethical can also fall into that category as well. In other places in Idaho, bait is not allowed for the majority of the species, right? So for all unglet's deer, elk, bait's not allowed. And so you're not sitting there with a deer sitting, it should, you shouldn't have corn. You shouldn't be hunting off corn in Idaho, but because it's illegal. But you know, deer and elk, they're just passing through. The trail cameras, yes, I could see where it benefits the hunter, but for myself and where I'm hunting, I'm not seeing more success out of it if that makes sense. It's like, I have trail, I have cell cameras. I love using those ones. They're a tactic. Cam reveals and there's only one bull elk that I could say that I killed, I killed it

10:25because I had one of those cell cameras. Sure. You know, the rest I wouldn't say so the bull elk, I killed this year using 11 year old bull. I killed him with a bow. I never saw him on one of my trail cameras. I had multiple friends who have watched this bull for like two years with cell cameras. And it's like, okay, well, if they had cell cameras on that bull, then why wasn't them that killed the elk? You still got to hunt the elk regardless of the cell cameras there. The cell cameras, to me, there's been even, even if you ban the cell cameras, then it's going to get to the trail cameras itself, right? Like it's still people can say it's just the trail camera alone is not fair. Can I tell you something? Trail cameras, very similar to ring cameras, right? And in my former neighborhood, they're going through this horrible infestation of doorbell ditchers. Oh, yeah. The doorbell ditchers are doing it even though they're on the ring cams and people still can't catch them. And they're human beings that live in the neighborhood. People see the clothes they're wearing, they see the whole, they have a video of them running

11:28up there. They still can't catch them. Yeah. Those are like 12 year olds on the ring cam. That's funny. It's like, yeah. We know who this is. That's his hat. Yeah. And you still can't find them. Well, that bull I killed, the bull I killed, there's three, there was three hunters after that bull. And three of those hunters had trail cam photos of that bull. And so there's a part of me. It's like, you know, there's this weird feeling inside where I'm like, I missed the days when I was the only one hunting that elk, right? I was the only one that knew that elk actually existed. But not one trail cam, I didn't get one trail cam photo of my, of that bull. Like I spotted him with a, with a spotting scope that winner while I was waiting for him to drop his antlers. And I'd never ended up finding his antlers somebody beat me to it. But I knew he existed and I was like, okay, well, I want to hunt this area for him, right? And so I did and I eventually caught up to him. I think it was like September 15th or September 16th, I stuck him with the bow at 18 yards. But those technologies did not help me whatsoever.

12:29My cell camera did not help me on that bull. But may I ask the question about this? And again, totally understand. I had someone articulate the exact, very similar situation, or excuse me, sentiment, which is, hey, look, these things don't help. And that's fine. Like I'm not saying they do. I'm not saying they don't. My question then was like, well, why would anyone care then if they get removed? If I'm telling you like, this pen doesn't help me with this podcast, take the pen. It doesn't matter me. I just play with it while we talk, right? Like none of it doesn't really matter. But people do very much, people, the people largely saying these things don't help are also the people saying, but don't take them away. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. That's a very good point. And honestly, if every, if all these laws go through, I won't lose a night of sleep over it. So if, if they banned the thermals, if they banned the cell cameras, honestly, I'm not going to lose any sleep. I'm still going to kill. I've killed long before these technologies were out myself. So it's not going to affect me anything where I stand strongly on because I live in such

13:30a wolf infested area. Those cell cameras have really benefited us in managing our predators. And so in patterning wolves and figuring out where they're moving in their routes, we've been able to keep track of them a lot better with these cell cameras. And that's why Justin Webb with the Wolf Foundation has been so passionate about keeping those cell cameras in the woods because it has helped us with predator management. Yeah. Like I said, and so when those laws are coming out, it was saying for, well, and this is the language that we are reading, right? So when those first coming out, it's like public, it's up for public comment. I did the best I couldn't get all information I could possibly on this and it says, this is only applying for unglets only. And I'm like, how is that look when I'm setting a trail camera in the woods and elk walks by my truck? It's four wolves, but an elk walks by and it's archery elk season. So am I now illegally violation, right? Am I causing a violation because an elk accidentally walked in front of my camera like that I did

14:33not intentionally want to happen like this to cameras for wolves. So for me, it was like that sets up a really difficult, I mean, obviously a very difficult problem. Yeah. Today, I actually did some more reading. Well, it seems like they've changed the language more and more and more towards a lot, makes a lot more sense. And it's like, okay, that sounds a little bit better. And, but I think now they're just saying just ban the full four months, right? So the full four months, no cell cameras, but the rest there, you can have them. But the four months when the deer and elk seasons are running through because they, they realized after that was, because it was written, it literally said for ungulates only. And then they changed it to all big game after the fact. And I think it was because the public comments and I was one of them, I said, hey, how are you going to actually regulate that? How are you going to act? And so they realized after that, they even changed the wording saying due to the comments and saying, how are you going to regulate it?

15:33We realized the only way to make this happen. I'm not saying that word for word, but, but, but they're saying that now for all big game. And it's like, well, that's tough because the majority of the wolves that are actually hunted with, you know, that have been successfully harvested and hunted are in the months of hunting season. And so that just, it cripples certain regions, right? But I see the perspective when I have, because I have friends that are really passionate hunters. They hunt just as hard as I do, but they live down here. They've reached out to me and said, hey, like in some of these places though, it's out of control. Like you said, with these cell cameras, they, they said if they're cell camera, they just sit there on their couch and wait for a big mealie buck or bulk to walk past and they go up and shoot it with the rifle, right? And where we're at when this, when you're into this heavy timber country, I don't care. If I'm up there a half hour from when I get that cell camera, now you got, it's a needle in the haystack, you know, your, your shots are mostly in the timber, 30 yards and under.

16:38You know, I, I, I have a long range rifle, but, you know, how many times I shoot animals and archery range with that long range rifle, because, you know, the majority of the country we live in is 90% timber, right? And so they've really, for us, we don't see the issues with it as much as the people in Southern Idaho and the sagebrush country and this white open country, but I do see the perspective of it. And so for me, I'm like, when I see a lot of laws and regulations that are pushed and are getting passed, I feel like the ones that are most successful are the ones on a region to region basis, right? Like in some areas, there's wolf quotas, right? And there's some areas where there's just no quotas at all. It's the same with deer and elk, right? There's certain regions where there's, because of how easy it would be to shoot an elk with a rifle in this region, maybe it's an archy only season or maybe it's a drawing, but in other parts of the state, it's a general tag any Idaho resident can buy the tag and go on elk here, because it's difficult country, it's difficult terrain.

17:40They can hand out well over 1,000 tags and you're still not going to hurt the elk population because it's difficult terrain to hunt. I mean, you look at the Selway and Burgerroot wilderness where in order to get in the elk, you have to pack in 25 plus miles. So in most of the state, we're at elk are vulnerable, which is the rut. There's archery only seasons, right? But in the Selway, after September 15th, you can shoot an elk with a rifle. Go have it. Take a long-range rifle. But guess what? Are you willing to pack in 25, 30 miles? And so how many people are actually doing it, right? So you can claim long-range rifles, but then it's like in that country where nobody's really getting back there, even with the long-range rifles, you're still going to have elk, right? Could I ask a question, and again, I appreciate 100% of what you're saying and articulating like, look, the state, we are a state, but we are varied with our predator concentrations with our big game, ungulate concentrations, whole thing.

18:41By the way, I was in Riggins two weeks ago just doing a float 20 degrees on the river. I was like, I'm going to die out here. Oh, yeah. Pretty cold. Yeah. Had a fantastic time, caught a steal hat. I was super, super pleased about it. But the whole time, we were just watching elk on the hillside. Like there was a herd, I mean, they were everywhere. Looking at Idaho as part of the Western region, right? You have a lot of states, you know, to our east and to our south that have become very restrictive of technology. Then the west coast states, not as restrictive as say like Wyoming and Montana, but still more restrictive than Idaho. And that leaves Idaho in this position, and again, I'm not advocating for against anything, but it leaves it in a position where it's like, okay, Idaho hasn't decided how to really address this stuff. Or it has decided that it won't be addressing it. However, you want to phrase it, do you worry about, let's say I was a beginning hunter in like, I don't know, Utah or California or wherever, right?

19:42And I'm like, all right, I got some money. Awesome. I'm going to go buy some really expensive gear, all the sickest tech. This is going to be great because by the way, I suck at hunting. So like, I'm going to get this stuff. And then where can I go use it? And it's like, well, there's only one place in the west. You can go. You can go to Idaho. You can have more pressure coming into Idaho with people that are really trying to use new technology. And that, are you concerned that that would screw up stuff for, you know, obviously, our Idaho residents or other people trying to come in? Is that like a worry? Because again, we're like the low pressure zone where losers like me who aren't great and like, go out and buy the most expensive everything come in and like proud of myself because I shot something like a mile out. Not that I would be that good of a shot. I'm sure. But by the thing, you can't shoot a mile like, yeah, the rifle can go a mile, but you suck it. Hunting. It's like, anyway, but are you, is that a concern of yours? So here's, here's where I think is the biggest part of the issue in Idaho and, and I'm like, because I hunted, I've, I've hunted all the states.

20:44I've hunt Utah. Um, I've hunted, I mean, well, I could just name them off right. Yeah, yeah. Like Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, uh, Oregon, Washington, New Mexico, Utah, yeah, I've hunted all the states. I mean, like I said, I kick the list goes on. I've hunted a last, I hunt Alaska a lot, um, everybody, all the states right now are all facing the same issue and that's hunting pressure and the high amounts of hunting pressure that's happened since COVID. If you just look across the board, everything opportunity just across the board has got harder. Sure. And that's what, you know, for me, is so every state has their, like, when it comes to the Drines, for example, especially as a non-resident, things have become a lot more difficult and, and all the states are facing what's called the point creep Idaho does not do a point system and so to explain that to people who may not understand, it's when you put him for a drawing. So let's say, like, let's say moose, for example, moose populations are fairly low.

21:46It's not everybody can just go out and she moves every year. So it's, it's going to be worse this year too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'll mostly hurt the calves, but which is our future generation, right? Right. Um, and that's also regional too. Like, that's also a regional issue. Um, but yeah, going back to the moose though. So with the, um, with that drawing system, it's, it, there's a, there's something in what they call the point creep. So maybe it took 10 years to draw this moose tag, right? So every single time I apply for that moose, like the, these other states that they give me another point. And so what that does is it hires my odds for the next year. So it's almost like they put me in the hat twice, right? So if I put in for this moose tag for three, three years in a row, now I'm in the hat three times. And so I like the system because it's almost like the longer you've been putting in for the tag higher probability. Yeah. If you're going to draw the tag, the problem is is all every state, every single state in the West is fighting what's called the point creep where now that it took 10 years to

22:49draw this moose tag now is 20 years. So I actually, it doesn't feel like I'm making any headway, right? So if I at 43, I'm like, okay, great, I'd love to go hunt moose. It's like, well, man, and I at home, maybe you got a shot. But if you go to Utah, bro, the people that have the highest probability admin in there for like 15 years. So maybe by the time you're 60, you'll get a shot. But then when you're 60, now it takes, now instead, it used to be 15. Now it's 30 points. So then you really, I'll never catch up to the point creep. And so a lot of these states are actually at this time, I've actually had to drop out in some of these states because I'm actually not making headway like every year. And it's just because it's flooded, right? Colorado in itself received, there was 70,000 more hunters after COVID. And it was just like that many new hunters showed up and started hunting Colorado. And it hasn't backed off. And it's the same with Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, all these states have all faces. There's areas in Wyoming where it used to take me two points to hunt a particular unit.

23:54Now it takes me eight years, eight points or eight years to draw that same unit. And they all cross the board. Like it was it last year or the year before in a couple of units, they had like unlimited outtags. And then in other places, it's like, you got to wait 10 years. Yeah. It's like getting mad. And so, and so here's what I've noticed and I've learned where states have done it right, though, is there for one, they treat the residents right, you know? So Wyoming's probably the better at it. And as a non-resident, like how does that hurts that you're making it harder for me as a non-resident? But I get it. I understand they're trying to help the residents out. But secondly, all these states have grown exponentially in population, right? Idaho, like I was talking to my dad the other night. And he says in the late 90s, there was not like Idaho didn't break a million. And I should actually look it up. But he said there, Idaho wasn't, there wasn't even a million people in Idaho. And now there's over two million people in the state of Idaho. We have that many more people in the landscape.

24:55Here's what's even crazier. Think of this. We have the same hunting season dates as I've did since the 90s. And it's like they have not changed the seasons. We still have pretty much three months of elk hunting of a three month elk hunting season. And it's like, why are we not shorten this season down when we have so many more hunters in the woods? Like, why are we blaming technology when maybe we should do what the other states have done like Utah where you can still shoot like they're wide open stage brush country. They're using long range rifles. And now they're not allowed to use thermals, but you're able to use a lot of these other technologies. They have great age class, mule, their great age class elk. They just have had to restrict a lot of these areas because of population growth. Utah is a very populated state, a lot more than Idaho. And there's areas where even me as a non-resident, I could still pick up a tag every year in Utah if I wanted to.

25:57But these seasons are only five days long. Yeah. The attack actually, I think the survey that they took from people, and again, survey's not perfect. Obviously. But 90% of their respondents said they prefer to leave to not just restrict the technology and not shorten the season. That's the problem. What? People want that. It's the difference between a wanton and a need, right? I'll use another example. Well, the wanton, the need disparity or distinction is kind of like, yeah, like, I don't know that that necessarily plays out like we're talking about like law enforcement. Right. We need law enforcement. Oh, absolutely. You may want every police officer to have a helicopter, but we're going to be able to deliver a law and order without the helicopters for all cops, right? Yeah. That'd be an interesting bumper sticker. But the point is that you have, like here, the question is, what do people want to be reflected in their laws? And like when we're dealing with law and crafting law and fashioning it to be reflective of what

27:02the people want, that's the whole nature. Like we don't have the need argument in the same way when it's like, no, these are elected representatives. The whole nature of an election is who do you want? Not who do you need? So I mean, it's a little bit of a different, different argument with this. It is. It's a lose the situation because I do love the fact that we have such a voice in our own state. Yeah, yeah. I love that. And even when this, when this was an opportunity for people to share their opinion when they were, you know, introducing these new laws, right? Yeah. I want to say banning because it's not a full year ban, but let's use the term restricting these technologies. When those things were coming out, when people were disagreeing with me, I'm like, dude, don't tell me that you disagree. Like you have the opportunity to go on the website and the share voice your opinion. Like I think for me, regardless if you disagree or disagree, it is important to share your opinion. I think that's great. Oh, yeah. Also, and it's, this is a really hard thing for me to say that sometimes because something

28:04is popular doesn't mean it's right. Of course. And so the technology thing, yeah, I think that's great. People care about restricting the technology. But I really think the biggest part, like if we're looking actually, like we're just looking at the tip of the iceberg here, because all the states, all the states are facing on hunting pressure issues. More people in the landscape, God's not making any more land in Idaho. It's the same that we have the same amount of land, if not less than we've did before. We still have a lot of public land. But now we have a larger population of people, a lot more people utilizing this resource. And some, like I said, some of these hunting seasons have never changed in fact. Our white tail season increase, when I was younger, our white tail season was a month long. Now it's over 50 days long. And so it's like, and maybe it's like give or take, right? Like not exactly, but it's lengthened for over 20 plus more days.

29:09And it's like, why did we lengthen our white tail season? Now our quality just dropped almost dramatically, like right off the bat and it's, and the concept of it, this was before COVID is Idaho is trying to sell out those white tail tags, right? Or just the regular deer tags. And they said that they were having an easier time selling them if they line it up during the elk season. And it also comes back to the goal of Idaho and I've asked multiple times with law enforcement, the Idaho fishing game, talked about that, but I'll just, I'm like, why don't we restrict some of these tags? They don't disagree with what I have to say, but what they say is Idaho is opportunity state. We want there to be opportunity for other hunters and outdoors men. And so that's our mission. That's our goal. That's why it essentially acts as an opportunity. Yeah, they want access and opportunity. And so, so in order to, you know, the restrictions that I feel like need to happen, it's against the goals of Idaho, but, and I think a lot of hunters agree with me on this. When I say that, like there needs to be some forms of restriction with the hunting pressure

30:12because, I mean, we can't keep the same hunting season. We can't give out the same, well, the same number of non-resident tags, honestly, we can, we can blame non-residents as much as we want. They're still given the same amount of non-resident tags. But here, here, me, if I may then, so when I say, hey, look, Idaho is a low pressure zone as far as technology alone currently in today's laws. And, and some people worry about that putting pressure with, with people coming in with more technology. And you feel that, although that may be true technically, everyone has an enormous amount of pressure. And so, you're not even really worried about the fact that technology is, is more allowed here. You're not worried about that pressure as much as you're just saying, no matter what the technology is, there's an enormous amount of pressure. Exactly. We have just a lot of pressure here. And like I said, so every region's different. You can, you can easily just region to region basis without making a lot on all of Idaho. You can restrict some of these technologies, right?

31:14Or make it an archery only season. Okay. Like, you know what I mean? You can easily tweak that. And that's, and that's just a conversation with the region to region basis, right? The issues that Boise have are way different than the issues that Central Idaho, Southeast Idaho, North Idaho. Every region has its own issues. Maybe a new illness comes through. We don't know, right? Yeah, right. And, but what really comes down to it is we just have more hunters on the landscape. And in certain parts of North, in Idaho, like North Idaho, we have predators on the landscape. And some of these seasons still have not changed since the wolf has been introduced. So these seasons are still the same length. They're still given the same amount of non-resident tags. And I look at myself as trying to buy a tag outside of the state, right? So let's say me trying to get Montana. Now it takes me two years to get what would be a general tag for Montana resident. Again, I think that's great that Montana is doing that and they're realizing, hey, we need to, we need to hold off on giving out as many tags to help our wildlife.

32:16Idaho, as a resident, I can buy two elk tags a year. I bought two elk tags last year. Why am I allowed to buy two elk tags? You know what I mean? And so I'm like, it doesn't seem right. I'm going to take advantage of it, of course. What would it depend on what the population pressures are? Because again, in Wyoming, they had those units where they were giving unlimited tags, because they're like, we need elk out of here. We have too much. And in other areas, they're like, no elk tags, right? So you have, again, to your earlier point, a regional question of, why do I have two elk tags? Well, if you look at it from a state level, you're like, that doesn't seem right. But if you look at it in a region level and a wildlife management level, you're like, no, no, no, give more than one over here, because we really got to get these units cleared out. Perhaps like in a depredation tag situation, right? Like if you, if you're areas down here where maybe you have issues where you have hundred or thousands of elk, they're starting crop. Then you have the depredation tags. Well, it's like, why am I buying a not, why am I allowed to, well, and going back to what I'm so to break it down though, too, it's the fact that I can buy a non-resident

33:17tag. So I'm buying a resident. And so, gotcha. And so also, and typically I do it just because I'm like, well, it's either me or a non-resident, right? So I love that. Okay. So I didn't understand that distinction. So you're saying, look, I'm allowed as a resident to buy in state and out of state. Yeah. Got it. The thing is, it's either me or a non-resident. Yeah. It really is. Come on, bro. Yeah. And I know I sound hit. I'm kind of a redneck here. So no, listen, I, this is a great question that is everywhere in the state. I've had Susan Bucksdon in multiple times, Raptor Parks and Rack, right? And everybody's trying to figure out, you know, like again, over COVID, and I was not living here. But what I have been told is in 2019, you didn't have to worry about state parks. And like you go and you get spots like, you know, very hot places like redfish were always kind of booked up in advance a little bit to some degree. But you know, like you would be able to go then in COVID, everybody, you know, like jumps in the rental RV and they like, you know, come to Idaho and do whatever.

34:19I was not one of those people, by the way, it was like I didn't come in vacation here. But all of a sudden, it became impossible to get spots that people have been going to for generations. And this is a great question of, okay, how do we preserve the resources for, or at least help preserve the resources for the actual residents and taxpayers of Idaho who are putting in on these state parks who are who have been, have these ties to them and give them a better shot at getting access to these as opposed to people that just flood in from the coastal states or somewhere else like. And that's just parks and wreck, right? That's not even, that's not even put in for tag. So I get it. There are pressures on this state that are really significant from people not investing their life here, right? It's like that scene from Yellowstone, right? It's like when he gives a speech, he's going to run for governor. And he's like, you know, if you want to make this your home, we welcome you assimilate to our way of life. But if you just want Montana to be your playground, you will pay a higher tax and blah, blah,

35:21blah, all these things. It's like, yeah, man, if you want to come live here, great. Like first off, pick up the, like, this is Idaho handbook. Could you, like, I was thinking, I was thinking that somebody who saw me, they're like, he should like do a book and like, I'm not writing book. But I thought it would be funny to do like a year-end review of the four to five hundred shows I did every year and have like different volumes for each year. It's like, this is what I learned from Idaho this year. It's like, just read those and you'll learn a whole hell of a lot more than, you know, you're going to otherwise. Anyway, but like, this is a problem. It's a problem cross industry. Yeah. And I'll give you, and so rather than just me giving my opinion, I want to give an example of something that proved to work, right? And so in the region that I love the hot meal there, just because I, you know, I grew up in the particular area, it used to be a full month long season during the rut with the rifle in hand. A lot of these states, we talk about all the states and what they've done. A lot of states don't even allow a general rifle season during the rut because it's not fair for the meal there, right? It's similar to elk because they're vulnerable that's during the rut and you're sitting

36:23there with a, with a boom stick in your hand. And so typically a lot of states like Utah, it's archery only gives them a fair chance, right? Well, this was, I mean, this was the right little bit before COVID, meet myself in a lot of very passionate meal there, hunters showed up that they had a public meeting, you know, so while that ball, we had a couple of that biologists in there, a couple of fishing game officers, they had all the stats sitting there, well, it was great. I love it when they do this because they want to hear from us. So again, so when I talk about them, I'm glad they're sitting there listening to us. And they did listen to us, me and a bunch of other passionate meal there, hunters showed up at this meeting said, like our seasons are too long. Like we've, we're losing our quality. Like we don't have bucks in, when I use the term inches, you know, inches of rack. So it's like we don't have bucks over 100, like meal there over 160 inches and that's sad. Like we're not, we don't have the quality. And in some way they kind of push back kind of like, yeah, we don't know if we really want to shorten the season. And it's like, like we really feel like these seasons need to be shortened because these

37:26bucks have a full, they have to somehow survive a rifle for an entire month and breeding dose. And some of these bucks, especially in the clear cuts, well, you know, in our country where there's more timber, the dose really concentrate themselves in those clear cuts because that's where the food source is, right? Some of that timber, it kind of canopies, it prevents a lot of that food source. So the logging actually, what people, you know, false idea that logging ruins environments and it can in certain regions, back to a regional basis, right? Like our logging actually helps our environment, it gives more access to food source, food source environment. Yeah. And so now the brush can grow in the grass can grow that could never grow before. And so now the meal they're concentrated in there, well, those big bucks that are out of their hiding places show up because they're dumb, they're a full blown rut and they get shot up. So, so after a couple of years of pushing this, I mean, they, I mean, it wasn't a bunch of people. It was just me and a couple of guys, they listened to us and we appreciate they shortened that season down to half.

38:26But firstly, they took out in 10 days and they took down some more. So now it's down to half. And our quality within three years spiked back up again, like their meal, their numbers are still the same, you know, but our quality returned to an extent. So it's just like, and now great bucks are getting shot of there again. So it's like, that's, so right there, that's proof that that can work. And maybe we need to implement this in other areas. And with Idaho, like, and, and then they don't want to write, like if you limit the amount of non-resident tags, let's say they want to cut down non-resident tags or cut down tags, they're losing revenue, right? Shortening seasons, which is hard to say, like people are going to disagree with me on this. Obviously, right? Hunters who want opportunity to fill their freezer are going to very much disagree with me. But I also like to see quality. But they're not going to lose money because they still sell the same amount of tags. So it doesn't, they're not going to lose money by shortening the seasons.

39:30What? Let me ask you this. Yeah. And I don't know the answer. I'm sure there is a good one. I thought they just increased the cost. Like you've already have. Okay. But do it again. They already have. Like non-resident tag, let's say it's a hundred bucks. Make it a hundred fifty. They're like, well, you know, we'll get fewer people. Yeah, but you're getting fifty percent more money. Like let's just play with the money and like we're going to decrease the number of people. We're going to increase the, or keep the revenue at least steady. And if you're like, look, our target for out of state, instead of a hundred people is seventy five people, increase it until you have the seventy five people. Like it just ratchet that bad boy up. I'm sure there's a reason for that, but they don't do that. It's probably because it ends up being, it kind of goes back to like the rich, you know, the rich or the top. Top. Yeah. Who cares about the people from Washington, right? You and I, we care about the people from and in Idaho, right? Okay. Yeah. Okay. I don't care.

40:31Leave the residents. Leave the resident tags. The same cost. Drop them. Drop the cost. Just ratchet up the out of state. Again, you'll have more money. God bless it, man. Like let's bang it out. Oh, yeah. Well, so I'll say this. Wyoming and Montana both have done that. And it hasn't worked. Okay. So they're like, listen, it was a thousand dollars for a tag. We had a hundred people that got tags. We put it up to two thousand dollars. We still got a hundred dudes. Okay. Great. And now you have two thousand dollars per person. Just great. Pass the savings on. Give 50% of the savings instant. Oh, yeah. Make all the. Oh, they will. The resident tags out for free then. Oh, yeah. You could. You could. You could. Oh, yeah. So like Idaho, I think. So as a non-resident, I think you guys. Because it's changed a lot. So I don't know the exact number. But I think it's 600 bucks if you get the deer and elk tag in Idaho as a non-resident. Montana. It's over 1200 right now, as we speak. Dude, and take it up to 12. Take it up to 12.

41:31Full 12. I'm saying Montana. It didn't change anything except the revenue that they did get more revenue. Now we're on the same page time. Now we're on the same page. More revenue for Idaho paid by somebody else coming from out of state. Oh, yeah. And I think there we go. And I think with Wyoming, just the deer tag alone is over over a thousand. I'd have to look. But the last time I got it was over a thousand. And did it change for the in state residents? Are they paying more? Probably not. Probably not. Yeah. They're breaking it. They're making it happen. We should not be the discount state, man. Yeah. We can't be the. We need to be the premier of the premiums. They at least. Yeah. At least charge as much as your neighbor. Yeah. Right. If you're selling the same burger for less than the guy next to you and they're selling out of their burgers, you're fool to sell it at a discount. Yeah. I guess on the. On the. I mean, in the sake of making more money, definitely. I think that. Definitely. If they want to make more money, definitely. That's. That's an option. Right. I don't think.

42:32I don't think that's a problem. They could do that. I don't think that's going to change the wildlife population though. I still don't think that's like because the tags will still get selled out every year. It'll just be probably a different class of people. Right. Increase the cost and decrease the season. You'll have more money going to habitat restoration. You'll have more money going to, you know, a fishing game warrants. You'll have more money going to everybody. Yeah. And we'll be happier. Yeah. We'll all have a better experience. I think. I look at. It's. So a lot of. They should have hired us. They should have hacked committee. Obviously. Obviously. These are dumb committee. But I like to look at other states and what they've done, right? And Idaho Montana are both are struggling on this. This is a battle for Idaho Montana both because they both still have not jumped on the bandwagon and shortened their hunt seasons. Montana still has an excessively long. They still have right now, like what they did is they blamed the non-residents, right? So they cut down the tags on known residents when they've given out the same amount of non-resant tags forever. So it. It's just like, well, is that actually the problem though with Montana?

43:32And I don't mean to jump on Montana because this is an Idaho podcast, but I'm just saying we can. We can learn. There's a regional problem. Yeah, it's a regional realm. It's all. I mean, we connect like a lot of the mountain ranges that run in Idaho, also run in Montana too. And so aren't you like 10 miles away from Montana border? I'm 700 yards. See? So I used to. So the last time we were. We'll be forgiven. Well, the last time we were on the podcast, I was 10 miles, but I. I bought a property close and now I'm. I can literally throw a rock. I can literally shoot. Like if there was a deer Montana, I could shoot it from my house. You know what I mean? So it's. Yeah. They have really close. I know. So what's the rules if you had like that tag for that and you shot it from Idaho, but it was a bit like you were like, I have the tag for this in Montana. I just shot it from a different state. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. These are these are nuances. We shouldn't go down. No, no, no. Let's not go down that one. Well, listen man. Let's do this. Okay. I appreciate your perspectives.

44:33We've talked about a bunch today. Let's do this. You're in town for other things. You didn't come into town for this. Why don't we call it right now? Let's find out what happens. You know, obviously at the state house, I'm going to be, I'm going to be up in Cordelaine in north. Okay. Set the record straight north Idaho or northern Idaho for where I'm at. What do you say ERN or just north or northern? Yeah, you just north or northern. What's what's more big? What's more big? What's more vague? I'm just saying. What's more vague? I don't know, but people get upset. I've been of people like, it's not northern Idaho, bro. It's north Idaho. It's like, okay. I don't know. Yeah. I'm in southern Idaho, right? I'm southwestern Idaho. I normally just like to say Idaho in case someone sees me shoot a nice meal. They're nice. They're like, oh. Must be north. I'm like, no, just say you're Canadian then. Yeah. I'm going to point this. So you can just call whatever. So I have an issue saying Boise. I don't like, is it Boise or is it Boise? Yeah, it's not Boise.

45:34There's no Z. It's Boise. It's Boise. Like Boise wall or whatever. I don't know. My mouth moves weird when I say Boise T. Say it like Mike Tyson would say, I'm from Boise. I'm Boise. Boise. There you go. I got a buddy who made a sticker that was Mike Tyson from Mike Tyson punch out. I'm from Boise. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, let's do this. Let's call it. Get on with the rest of your trip. I really appreciate you taking on. I'm going to be up there in hopefully like a month or a month and a half or something. I'd love to connect with you again. Yeah. Do you have any plans to be back down to this area in the next like four or five months? No. Okay. Well, listen, it took three years to get the second podcast. Hopefully it won't take that long. I really appreciate you, man. I really appreciate your perspective. Again, you guys have a fantastic channel. You're out there talking and talking about these issues and again, in a regional manner, which is awesome. Let's just keep the conversation going. Yeah. I think it's important to have that. Just like I said, I think the biggest thing you can come out of this, hopefully I didn't.

46:36I jumped on a bunch of different tangents, but it's important to get involved, but also to stay informed is really important. You know, and me with this with everything that's going on right now being informed is really important. It was really helpful for me. Like, even just listening to that podcast, it was great to hear the detail that went into this. It wasn't like they just winged this. And so I was, to me, I know I'm actually more on the fence on it than I'm not like very radical and saying, we need to allow thermals, because yeah, I see the perspective and where it can go wrong. For me, I just, our main issue up north is predator management. And so we just were afraid of getting rid of tools that we wrote so hard to allow. And so I think the conversation does need to continue and if these laws are in place, and by all means, it'll be fine. We'll make work. I'd say, I know you probably got to go, but the last couple of things I wanted to just bring up in the attention with people is like, when it comes to ethics and things like

47:41that, some things that may seem like, yeah, that one thing, maybe unethical or that thing may not be fair, Jason, probably the biggest issue that, or the biggest battle right now going on in Idaho is trapping and using hounds. And that's going on. We're seeing this across the state. So my biggest fear as a resident of Idaho is losing tools like running hounds to be able to manage the mountain line populations properly and to be able to use traps to manage wolves properly. Because those are two of the best tools to use and managing predators, but in a lot of cases where the same type of arguments used in these other technologies that are being banned, you can also use the same argument for these techniques because a lot of people technically will you say that they're not fair chase, right? And so this is a conversation that does need to be had and it's like, where do we draw the line with these technologies? By all means, I think it's great that Idaho's getting a hold of it before it gets too far. Before the term that you can, you can look over a mile away and be able to see a deer

48:43on the hillside or be able to shoot that, you know, 2000 years, like I get that. Like I'm like, I think it's a good thing that we, we have the conversation and we stop in its tracks before it gets too far. Joan's something. I mean, Joan's, yeah. Should it use them? They are. You know how I need to get on? Yeah. I got to get Seth Simpson back on. He's in the hounds, man. Yeah. He's like, he's a great dude. None better. None better. I actually never thought about that because he's, his hounds are amazing. Well, they're watching his videos all the time and like whenever he comes over to my place, he's got him in the back of his truck and like, he's the best. Yeah. I wonder what he thinks about that. Because, well, Oregon and Washington both have banned using hounds. Oregon's trying to go next level and banning even more hunting opportunity. So we've done next level. Yeah. And so that's, me as a resident, that's, that's my only concern is like, because that very much, you know, we are talking about the popular opinion, right? This is a, those bands are a popular opinion in that state.

49:44But who's the ones making the decisions? Is it the people in the city or is it the people in the country? We see that with that, we call it ballot box biology with what happened in Colorado. Yeah. So you have the population centers that aren't around them, but then they make the decision for the rural areas. Yeah. The rural areas get the fallout of what the city people decided. The majority of the reason why the wolves are getting introduced in Colorado is because of Denver and Boulder. If you look at this chart and see where all the yeses came from, it was those two areas. The rest of the state said, no, but guess who's getting affected? And so just because it's a certain things are a popular opinion, it doesn't mean it's always right. So I'm listening. Anyways, sorry. Yeah. No, listen, we need like three hours, right? Like I've just, I really appreciate you. We're going to do this again. Let's keep the conversation going, let's, let's keep the topic and, and I'm sawing it out. We'll go from there. All right. Sounds great. Thanks, sir.