Teachers Aren’t Underpaid (Paul’s Rant vs Eric’s Defense)

0:00You want to just hit you with it? Yeah, that's let's go. All right. Here's the hot take you guys And I'm gonna lose friends over this I don't care I don't have that many friends anyway. I just got a lot of acquaintances. So unfriend me come at me whatever here's the hot take teachers aren't underpaid Huh teachers are not underpaid and they complain too much You are listening to the soapbox. I'm Paul and I'm there. This all started out with a list. What's that all about? So I've compiled a list over the years it thinks it just bought things that grind my ears and I share that list with you And I thought you know what that would make interesting conversation Sometimes I'm gonna want to agree with you and it's just gonna be something we talk about other times though I'm gonna want to steal me in the opposite position because I think that's just interesting conversation Yeah, and keep in mind I'm always right, but Paul's just a really good. Hey You You know reverse card time Usually Eric likes to hit me with a cold and I have to just adapt and that's okay

1:05I like that, but I wanted to I wanted to do the same thing to Eric this time because I have a Soap box and I've been sitting on it for a while and I've occasionally brought this up in polite company And I've been chastised for this opinion multiple times and so I thought you know what Let's do it Let's let's say the quiet part out loud the unsavory opinion and I didn't give Eric the courtesy of having any clue What we're talking about today. I've got no notes. I have notes, but I have them covered up because I didn't want him to see Yeah, so I don't even have a guess for it. I feel like I should have a guess Do you want to just take a stab in the dark? What could what could it possibly be? Can I get Get some hints like is it politics? It is political in nature, but not directly. It's Everything's political that chairs political. I have a I have a I have a directly political talking point on an otherwise non-political opinion. Okay And also here's here's the hint I gave earlier and you may have missed it, but

2:07This is inspired by a recent headline recent okay within the last as of the date of recording 42426 It came out yesterday. Oh, okay Is it financial it is financial and it's local. It's local You want to just hit you with it. Yeah, let's let's go. All right. Here's the hot take you guys And I know I'm gonna lose friends over this. I don't care Uh, I don't have that many friends anyway. I've just got a lot of acquaintances. So unfriendly come at me whatever Here's the hot take teachers aren't underpaid Huh teachers are not underpaid and they complain too much and I'm gonna substantiate this. Okay. What are your initial impressions when you first hear this? Um, I feel yucky. Yeah. No, I've got a lot of teacher friends that Will still be my friend after this podcast. I hope because if you're taking counterpoint They're gonna like you and they're gonna hate me, but I imagine that's probably a lot of your friends anyway

3:07Who's this knucklehead you keep talking to and why do you want to do a podcast with him? Yeah, but no, yeah, I guess I've never actually seen financials or anything that but I have a lot of people I trust That you know definitely feel underpaid. Um, I also feel underpaid. Oh, I think everybody does right? I know I don't you don't I don't know I get paid more than I should. Oh, no Yeah, don't let them see this one. You're never getting another raise. No, I actually have a very very At KTC. I think I feel like Uh Fair compensation people we were pretty competitive, I think and and I think that's one of the things we strive for because People could leave KTC and go consulting gig and sure, you know work their tails off and yeah, I was offered a consulting gig Well, I guess a contractual position for a supplier for Toyota pre pandemic Yeah, I'm out of it. It was a two-year contract It was gonna pay probably double or triple what I was getting paid at the time

4:08But I didn't like the idea of the lack of security and holy cow What a great choice that was because the whole world shut down and I don't know that that job existed Yeah, okay, so um Yeah, no, my my initial reaction is you know, again, I trust my my friends and their accounts um, and I feel like they're Uh, I do feel like it's a it's a weird industry that Um, and and this is just my first reaction. I'm really curious. You're talking points But I do feel like it's a it's a weird industry where a lot of people particularly people that live in a county and they don't have kids You know, they they fight the idea that their taxes go to pay for these services that they don't use and I'm like you do use it All of the people that are going to school are likely going to stick around in the in the area and they're gonna be your you know your barbers or your Doctors or your People cook in your food or managing your money. So you want people to be well educated. So sure

5:11And I'm not going to make the argument that I don't want people to be educated. I do yeah, and I think there's a virtue in that notion On the tax argument the reason this is a recent story is because Fayette County is once again in the news for fiscal irresponsibility Okay, yeah, since 2008 apparently they have been making accounting errors Which I'm going to use air quotes on because I don't know how you do that for 18 years And nobody catches it right also Demetrice Liggins in particular has been noted for exorbitant spending Travel ridiculous amounts of furniture purchases having his own life coach Which is like what he what even is that wasn't there some sale of some We're a purchase of some land there was a land purchase off of Masterson station and for sales road Where I think they paid double or triple the appraised value for the property so they could build an all-girl School and then after building it they were like oh, okay. Actually. It's not an all-girl school. We're gonna put boys in there too

6:12And they had several several other land purchases where they overpaid will simultaneously shutting down Southside Academy And then wanting to auction it off probably for pennies on the dollar. Yeah, they didn't shut down Southside Southside move to the hill right They shut down the facility. Yeah, we have they shut down Yeah, and so that that land on Herdsburg Road across from the gardenside Neighborhood where I live is just it's just bearing. There's no activity happening there at all. Yeah, and yet Three blocks down the street. They just overpaid for more land Where they already had land in a school No, this makes any sense to me and I'm maybe there's reasons I'm not aware of But it's in the news right and so the tax argument I think is a fair argument if you aren't saying I don't want my tax dollars to go to fund education That's not what people are are generally saying. I think what people are generally saying is I don't want to be taxed more when administrators are irresponsible with what they're already receiving and I don't want to bail them out because the current headline is now fake county public schools is potentially wanting to secure alone

7:14To pay back the debt that they created because of fiscal irresponsibility and bad bookkeeping So now we're gonna have to pay interest on top of loss because of bad management. Yeah And the superintendent who has not got a good track record in his domain already I was just recently looking for another job. Oh neat. Did he do an interview for in Missouri? Was there yeah, and he wanted to be he wanted everybody to rest assured that his commitment is to Kentucky and to good Whatever management or something and then this comes up and it's like Did he did he know this was coming and start throwing some applications out there? Yeah, was he Insider trading his own IP now he he started Well into this 18-year debacle, right? He isn't he did he came from Texas. Yeah where he also was running from financial scandal. So again Walks like a duck yeah walks like a duck quacks like a duck probably a duck so

8:15I fully believe that he needs to resign. I think that One scandal is one too many, but now we're on what scandal number three And he still seems to people it proof on this, but I'm gonna get into why as well There's an answer to the why so Let me unpack my notes now. I got three pages here, which you can't see because our lights are so bright But um, let me give credit where credit is due first. There's a podcast called elephants in the room It is by a guy named Ken Lakort who has done a lot of research on this And I'm gonna steal a lot of his talking points today because he has very Well-packaged to these and I think the value that I'm going to add is not so much the generation of original content as it is the localization for Kentucky The fact that I've held these opinions for a long time anyway, and I'm borrowing his structure But then I want to offer counterpoint opportunity. Yeah response opportunity So number one Talking about teacher pay The thing with teacher pay and the thing that's unique about teacher pay you already highlighted and that's this notion that public

9:17Teacher pay is not set by market forces like those jobs It is tax funded in a portion of the public sector So who sets teacher pay and we are for this conversation setting the side private schools. Yes, uh private schools and and all that Hold on there whole other thing. We've already touched on that a little bit with the whole charter school thing We did what was this last year at this point. Yeah How's one on our early ones, I think Yeah, so I'm not not talking about that. We're staying in the public sector But generally teacher pay is set by politicians, right? Mm-hmm And the thing with that is that teacher pay then becomes sort of a government monopoly on how pay is set and There aren't market forces or competition or supply and demand Forces at play that is going to influence the teacher pay So so this is assuming that the folks interested in these jobs They they they can't travel too many too far away because I mean because there would be some competition if you know

10:22I think that's a feature that I think that's a feature because what'll end up happening is if you've got a A district that's paying poorly. Yeah, and a district that's even geographically far away that has a need Because the teacher shortage is going to come up in this discussion as well. Well, the shortage is Only exist locally. It's not there's not a national shortage But the the local shortages are an indicator that pay is disproportionate to Other opportunities available or the cost of living within the region. Yeah, so if you've got a teacher shortage Then it's a simple supply and demand Function right because the only competition that exists is that geographic notion or private schools or charter schools or something of that nature. Yeah, so Let's let's add a layer now to the discussion and that is teachers unions teachers unions have an incentive

11:23To perpetuate a myth or at least a narrative. Let's not call it a myth just yet But they have a responsibility to their constituents to perpetuate the ideology The teachers are underpaid so that unions can add the benefit of increasing teacher salaries as part of their value proposition And so if you are in a union if you're in a marketing PR and I'm going to even use the word propaganda position within these groups It benefits you to convince constituents Who are going to be taxed? You know our teachers get paid based upon the housing tax right? And so whenever the discussion of the housing tax comes up We have to be convinced that there's a need Otherwise, we're not going to go along with this and if a politician votes for Additional taxation And we don't believe that that taxation is necessary either because of bad spending like what we're seeing in fit county

12:23Or In appropriate compensation Then the whole system kind of falls apart for them So How much are teachers paying? In union dues oh Union dues in Kentucky are about six hundred and eighteen dollars Okay yearly yearly okay not terrible yeah right and I think the national average is about a thousand dollars But this is going to KEPAC So that's the Kentucky Education political action committee. Okay, and then the largest union in the US is NEA national educators association Do you have any experience with unions? No for a company that's how to union no never never have I don't know yeah, I don't know much about them many other than do you think that unions are a positive or a negative for society for

13:25The individual worker for the workforce do you have a impressions? Yeah, I mean I get really depends on the application I suppose I feel like You know they had up they had a relevance at a certain time when you know workers are being mistreated and certain environments I can I could tell you For sure I saw a negative Effective unions when we recently had a conference it was in Boston And actually we're gonna go we're gonna go back there for another conference It'll be interesting to see if we see something similar, but we ended up having to cut the program short Pretty much canceled the sessions at the end of the day, which I don't want to get my soap box That's that's another thing. I feel right on your ravitral We tend to pack these conferences so tight that I think it it fatigues people and it cuts down something some of the social aspects of these conferences, so you know, maybe that's for another another time, but

14:30We did end up having to cut content which meant I was even told Like you know asked not to submit something because there are some people that can't come to the conference unless they present And you know, we're usually able to do that To go Regardless just because attending the sessions is valuable And yeah, it's because we had to cut the the program short so there we cut them short because they were gonna have to pay Over time for the employees because they're unionized There whereas most conference at most hotels they don't care and they're You know glad to serve you so yeah, and then there were certain roles that you couldn't feel privately because the union hadn't negotiated that they got to Actually employ those positions, right? Yeah, yeah, so you have less flexibility. Yeah, because we talked about the band We've got our band that that has no one in a band We've played a couple times at this conference and we're like hey, let's put the band back together and they weren't even gonna let you bring

15:33Certain equipment in there without charging fees and because they had to have somebody to operate it You paid their operate. Yeah, and I mean it was you're right. So that that that union in that context added a A layer of complexity that in turn was frustrating to us, but also raised the cost yeah, so and most hotels don't have unions So that was kind of weird that's kind of weird. Yeah, so so I'm not inherently anti-union Historically speaking it had its context. It was okay for its time And probably there are certain instances where union benefits or advocacy are still probably beneficial I don't know. Yeah, I'm not well studied on all of the ins and the outs of unions However, when you add somebody that's getting paid to the mix They've got to get paid from somewhere. Yeah, and so again, this is a sort of functionally a siphon off of the American taxpayer and our tax dollars Now any a Also makes campaign contributions

16:35Oh, and this is where it gets political if we're shadowed we were gonna get political and then 2022 They paid out $55 million dollars now what percentage do you think went to Republicans and what percentage? Do you think went to Democrats? Take a guess So of that 55 million that that group. Yeah, if you're assuming um Some sort of split between the parties. What do you think the the split was? A 2080 and favor of Democrats. So 80% go into the Democrats 20% go into the Republicans You're off. Okay I didn't research You're old. No, I'm I'm just I'm basking in the notion that I'm not the one going in cold today So I'm smiling to be here as if you had a chance 99% goes to Democrats And so this becomes a partisan issue because you do have Democrats Like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden who are very very pro teachers union

17:38Because that's part of their base. Yeah, yeah And so now there's a political incentive to Prepetuate this idea that teachers are underpaid because if teachers get paid more and unions get paid a percentage Unions are going to make a contribution to a political action committee And that contribution is going to go back to the people who are making the decision on how much we pay teachers and how much we tax people And you can start start to see this cyclical problem of incentive. Yeah So Teachers unions are inseparable from the Systems of power and propaganda that influence whether or not we're taxed more And there's no counterpoint. Yeah And I think there's a there's that one percent though Yeah, the Republicans in their one percent, right? So what's the point? What's the point like why why even why even kick a bone to the Republicans from that group? I'm pretty sure that's for the rhinos the Republican name only. Yeah, okay. Yeah, we talked about we learned about them last time

18:39We're definitely gonna get demonetized on this when we learned something this week Yeah, we're getting into the monetization portion on YouTube and If we talk about Political candidates the AI says nope can't can't do that one. So yeah, I suspect maybe that only happens during like you know Election seasons. Well, I want the algorithm to know that the so box Lexington politically endorses giant meteor 2028 Giant meteor. Yeah, so Take a shot. Take a shot might be your last one. Yeah All right, so let me get to another point here. Okay, because the union thing I think it's important to have that framework have that understanding because there is a different motivation than what people are projecting Number two, teacher salary is often only discussed as a starting salary and not as an actual average Okay, so we're getting a disingenuous comparison of what teachers are actually making because a teacher's salary is not

19:42Meritocracy, it's not based upon skill. You can't hire a teacher in who is particularly excellent and pay them more than somebody who is tenured okay, and so What ends up happening is the average shifts based upon the ages of teachers that are their present Average is maybe lower in areas that have younger demographics of teachers But then when you're actually looking at the averages Compared with the the starting salaries people say oh teachers are underpaid they start them at just $40,000 a year in Kentucky Well, the average teacher salary in Kentucky is 56 to 58,000 a year And high school teacher would be 61,000 so right away we've got a disparity of 10 to 16,000 dollars when people are making the plea that they're not being paid enough So we've got a misrepresentation of facts That is compounded by the number of days that a teacher actually works

20:43Right, this is a very important point to people miss. Yeah, I thought summer somewhere was going to come up summer Winter they get a winter break of around 10 days they get a fall break of around five days They get a spring break of around five days the average teacher in Kentucky will work between 180 and 190 days 180 is the number of days the kids are in school And the 190 are the days the teachers have to work as in service and training days How many days do you think a non-teacher works in an average vocation? We should be careful because ktc has basically all of those perks except for the summer Well, that's okay, you know, yeah, but we're operating on national averages and that's what we do Just burn educational institutions some of this logic could apply. Yeah Yeah, now I'm trying to think of 2080 is the number of hours We typically use For our rates calculations, so So do some quick math and don't forget the factor in sick days. Yeah, I'll just give it to you

21:44235 to 260 the putting up on the number of weeks of vacation. Okay And so 200 to go. Okay, that's not right if you Look at that and you compare that to other vocations that have a master's degree or a bachelor's degree requirement um And you Don't look at it as a function of an annual salary, but a function of What you're making in a day worth of work. Yeah Teachers are making between 295 to 322 dollars per day on average The average person that holds a master's degree is making 44,000 to 73,000 dollars annually That's the average okay now people always want to compare those two doctors and lawyers and engineers Highly specialized people with difficult jobs that are not easily obtained and may require additional education compensation and specialty skills But that's not a remasters degree that doesn't account for Social workers and nurses and you know folks that are in positions that are not as well compensated

22:51And so when you take all of them into consideration And the days worked versus the salary range Folks with a master's degree are making between 169 and 311 dollars per day Let's go back to the teachers then which is 295 to 322 Okay, so the range for teachers is Within the range of the masters and at times exceeding So on the con on the conversation of our teachers adequately paid and they want to say oh well Look how we compare to other people that have similar credentials That is a multivariate problem that has a univariate approach that is dishonest Because that doesn't take into consideration time off Which also affords additional income opportunities Because teachers can get summer work yeah Teachers often will coach sport or doing after school activity Or a club so there are or tutor There are lots and lots of earning opportunities that teachers haven't

23:52I know the counterpoint to this. I've heard it a million times. Well teachers do lots of work outside of school too They've got to grade papers. They've got to do lesson planning Okay How how much of that are you really doing At the high school level you're probably doing more At the elementary school level you're probably doing the whole lot at the beginning of the school You're to set your classroom up and then after you've done it for a year or two you're kind of on autopilot And that and that's certainly certainly fair in terms of like creating the courses and things but the We're gonna have both taught My first year teaching I had to come up with every lecture I had I had to learn the assignments and the readings as I was grading them and now I can just show up I can deliver the lecture No problem. I might update a couple things here or there if I've got a specific example that's You know seated in oh well in the last five years X or the current technology why I totally grew that But I thought you were talking about grading papers and and the things that you have to do everything well

24:53To a certain degree I am but even the grading has gotten easier because I know what to look for And so this notion of oh well, it's just it's this It's a labor of love and they're always doing it and it's an assault on the senses. It's like well That might be true at the beginning But that's not true throughout the course of the entire career That's a dishonest framing based upon the experience of the young teacher that's undercompensated for the work versus the seasoned or tenured teacher that is honestly probably either Found efficiencies through experience or they've gotten lazy in their taking shortcuts Which is not every teacher, but it exists and we have to we have to approach this conversation honestly if we're gonna have an honest approach to Yeah, I feel I feel I feel we have a little bit of a well with a disadvantage here because we don't have a teacher here That's a public school teacher you and I our teaching perspectives are Very different than what we're talking about here. I would I taught high school physics for three months Including grading including lesson planning So I dip my toes in the water

25:54But well again my point is not having someone who's done this you know for a while that It is are the people that are talking about being being underpaid So we don't have that and then yeah, I feel like you've got real real Concrete numbers and fat and and and things you're throwing at and the counterpoints I'm hearing is More anecdotal right? It's it's like I think the the whole argument is anecdote I think when you have concrete numbers like average salary and hours worked. No, I get all that any any person that wants to fight this is not fighting a fact They're fighting a feeling. Well, well, yeah But again the counterpoints that we need is to know like Literally how much time are you spending after school hours Doing this stuff and you're you're flipping away like, you know, it's not that I taught for three months It's not that big video, but well I taught for three months My ex-wife was a teacher her whole family were teachers my whole family were teachers So I have an understanding of the family impacts the after hours

26:58But my where are the pages for that Like where do you want to quantify it? Yeah, my previous point I think stands here and that is that The people that are trying to quantify it have an agenda and they're already misrepresenting the facts So that self-report data is not going to be reliable because the incentive isn't there for them to say it truthfully I see the the cyclical Picture you drew and that and that makes sense from a union standpoint But the folks I talk to are the teachers that Very want to get paid more that very well may not be aware of the cycle, right? I mean, it's very possible that most of the teachers we talk to give you that point I think that a lot of them are not part of the politics. Yeah, they don't they don't get that I'm willing to grant that one to you. Yeah, so I'm I'm picturing And this is anecdotal, but it's all I got because I You know But anecdotally, you know, I hearing from My friends and neighbors and and not not all my neighbors, of course You got one

28:00Yeah, probably agrees with me Oh, he might yeah, we'll get him on the book Um, we need a beat button so we could just say his name, but also beep it at the same time right It that's gonna just be that right Howard Howard's not Howard I hear things like having to buy their own school supplies and having to You know because the the budgets aren't here for this and that and then you know the working after after hours Even through summer and and I totally agree the first time you teach a class is infinitely different than the I've taught GIS since 2012 and it it definitely changes. There's no doubt there But you know, we're talking high school. We're talking a lot of room full of students Um, and now we're talking about trying to combat AI Um, I gotta imagine the that Teachers are now having to Really really puts extra steps into grading because now you got a about their training AI agents to do the grading for them

29:01Doing less I'm in and this part ones are maybe some dumb ones aren't on the book. Okay, buy your own supplies I don't have a note here, but I've got beef with that one too because one When you do your own taxes at the end of the year That there's a line item for that sure Two, so you get a 20% discount on that maybe okay, but two I have paid multiple fees to my child's school for science and art classes Where additional supplies were needed and I'm covering that expense not them. Yeah, well actually a lot of Shopping list at the beginning of the school year is bloody expensive and I'm not just buying school supplies I'm buying Linux for the classroom. I'm signing up for snacks So I I'm sorry, but you know what teachers you don't get a pass on that one because I'm subsidizing that too So you chose to be there. Yeah, and I get I get the feeling that like I can't really quantify the difference I mean buying a box of tissue at the begin in the school year versus, you know a teacher actually Buying supplies. I mean, I mean supplies are they buying throughout the year? Let's quantify that one Yeah, no, no, that's my point is I don't really think we can use that argument without let's take the Demetrius Liggins personal assistant supply

30:07Cost and spread that out over clinics for the year. Is this argument Specific to Fayette County or are we talking just in general? I'm speaking in general, but In general in the United States as I understand it and my I have to make this argument locally Because across the nation you're gonna have teachers making $200,000 a year in California And you're gonna have teachers making $30,000 a year in Arkansas. Yeah, so You're gonna have disparities, but I think that If you go back to that other point of cost of living and The only competition being geographic. I think it's self-regulating and that's gonna get to my final point So I'm gonna sit on that one for a moment. Okay We're continuing with this. Yeah, so yeah, I've already spoken to this one But the larger package of teachers benefits is often not accounted for and when I say I already spoke to this I'm talking about the time off portion A lot of time off which is really nice because even as a tenured KTC employee we get four weeks of vacation

31:12We get a nice Christmas break Christmas break and you know, you counted a lot But it's probably what six weeks in total. Yeah, I think that's probably a fair characterization Summer break for teacher ten weeks Christmas break probably two weeks Spring and fall break Week each right so you're looking at a substantial amount of time off Which is nice we've already talked about that. Yeah teachers jobs Generally have a pension instead of a 401k and a pension is a guarantee pensions in this country are going away and so it teachers pension is nice Teachers have the security of being fairly recession proof plus tenured So once you get the job It's not likely you're going to lose the job unless you're just painfully inadequate, right? And so there's a level of security that is a trade-off That some people in private industry don't have There's always a need for teachers if the technology market goes up or down if supply chain issues happen It doesn't matter. We always need to educate the next generation of the population and so the

32:14Security I think needs to be underscored and I think the The notion that teachers are necessary for society is often one of the counterpoints in this argument, right? And you made this at the beginning. Yeah. Oh, yeah Well, we want to make sure that even our our barbers and our what'd you say? I mean, it's the full gamut right you've got low You know low-paying jobs versus versus doctors and lawyers and engineers they all start somewhere sure But I think Because we have that Idea of teachers and not everybody shares that idea of teachers by the way, but I do I'll I'll join team Eric on this one. I think teachers are important. I like an educated population one of my Most frequent complaints are stupid people. Oh, they're not willing to set up their own printer Oh, they're not willing to try to learn a new skill, right? So like I would be a hypocrite not to be an advocate for a more intelligent population but Let us not confuse necessary for society with special

33:14Teachers are not special You're not Nobody special go watch fight club. You're not a unique individual snowflake We should have a little ticker on the bottom Number of friends that have deep-friended fall I'm sorry. You're not special for being a teacher. You're special to me guys. You're special You've probably heard it said those who can do do with those who cannot do teach. Yeah, my dad used to say this growing up So he'll probably give me a thumbs up in the comments and again just lost another friend One of my favorite things that I think maybe we talked a little bit about before, but I once got roasted I'm glad man the next door to your folks. I think we remember this, but I don't remember the detail Yeah, so for my birthday Kristen planned a surprise where I was out Getting something I think paintball Paintball gun ammo or something like that. Yeah, and I came home and how's full of friends? I were all in the backyard and I got back there and they were all lined up ready to roast me and man people had notes

34:19It was so some of the five I think we recorded on video. I might have to dig it up, but So some of the lines were great and of course John and white gets up there. I've been playing music with for For years and he goes He goes. Yeah, I you guys hear that Eric starting his PhD And he made the line, you know, those that can't do teach and he's like so why isn't he getting a PhD in music? Nice That's a that's a good one. Yeah Totally off topic going to do rabbit trail for a moment. Might as well probably my favorite roast Came from our mutual friend clay cobs wedding. Oh, there's a roast at the wedding. Yeah, so his I think it was best man At least one of the groomsmen a good friend of ours Brian Gatlin who One-year-one funniest man in Lexington. So oh, yes, he was hilarious He used to do stand-up comedy and then the world went woe can you can't be funny anymore without getting canceled? So he doesn't do it anymore. It's coming back. It's coming back. But yeah, Brian give it another shot now

35:21I think it's your time to shine again get out there, bud But he stood up in front of all of Clay's friends family and folks that were now new friends and family and didn't know him And hit him with one of the best roasts. I've heard in my life. Clay's not tall man. No, no, yeah So he's often The receiving end of some short jokes in our friend group because in fairness, I'm short for our friend group We have a lot of like six foot and above folks that hang out with us for whatever reason We just I guess all hang out at the beans talk together or whatever People something in the water something in the water But Clay's the shortest among us so he catches the most crap and Brian stood up in front of everybody and said you know I'm really surprised that Clay gave mercy his now wife the ring Because the last time he received a ring Gandalf told him to throw it into the fires of Mount Doom Well done So yeah, I appreciate a good roast. I think those are fantastic when done right yeah All right, so yeah, I actually have

36:23It's important, but not special written down because are the essential for society absolutely yes But what's not in modern society COVID kind of Peeled the veil back a little bit on what we really consider to be essential yeah, and I don't think teachers made the cut Well, it's actually that's that's Kind of funny because we I think we realized we probably shouldn't have Uh Done what we did and we we should have had the kids going to school. I you know, we didn't there's a lot we didn't know sure But but we were able to you're right we were able to Continue in some fashion with the NTI and yeah the NTI was a whole lot of work from home a whole lot of just kind of I think it revealed the amount of downtime and busy work that happens in the average school year Because now parents were fully privy to what was happening And maybe that was a lack of resources, but you know who was most necessary The folks that had to show up to their jobs every day the grocery store clerk

37:25And the guy that delivers the truck with the gas station stuff The toilet paper manufacturer good goodness gracious, right I still have a sprayer on the back of my toilet now because of insecurity that I might not one day be able to To get delivered clean up my situation. I a toilet paper psych What do we go out and wrap it real um We've always just stocked up on those paper goods in in the basement. So like we paper towels Kleenix and toilet paper and we must have just stocked up before covid hit because we You liar you're one of the hoarders. Oh, well, I mean we pre before it happened We you know, we I think it was just oh we're out of all this stuff. Let's talk back up. Yeah, it was lucky timing Um, you're over there with your Charmin. Yeah, in fact, we did um, did you teach during Lockdown? No, I was getting my master's turn the lock. Oh, right, right. So so I One semester I had six students started in person and had virtual

38:25It was it was awful. It was weird I think I only had six students though, too Which is also weird for your class because you're usually running 20 or so So it was a it was a strange semester all around obviously But I remember that the the college of engineering or civil engineering department one Asked us to shoot video incur it was a graduation like encouraging these the first That first semester grad to the where the students graduate. They probably didn't get to walk, right? Um, I think yeah, I didn't get to walk didn't get to Have even a social experience. Yeah for my entire master's degree. It was online. Yeah, the whole world was shut down And so I graduated only seeing a thumbnail picture of my professors. Yeah, some of whom now I teach alongside because I got offered a job to work In the same department. I got the master's degree in as a teacher like just adjunct and it was like oh wow Yeah, you look like your thumbnail also way more gray Maybe up nature picture guy, but So anyway, so they asked us to shoot video encouraging these students, you know being proud of them and all this and and I remember I still have my graduation cap

39:34so I was wearing it and I was shooting the video and behind me. I've had every roll of toilet paper in the house You animal and they cut it they cut it I can't believe it like I mean I was a choice somebody made that choice. Yeah, I was like this was funny come on Well nobody had a sense of humor for a while and then we all recovered at least in that way So here's the last point and this is actually again Going back to the name here because I'll forget Ken Lacourt This was this was something from his video and I loved it There was an economist from 1759 this guy Adam Smith who said that everyone's self interest leads to the best version of fairness and so When we make this claim that teachers are underpaid We are asserting an assumption that That's true and I would argue that's not true as that you can find anecdotes you can find out liars You can point to the teacher the dispending an extra eight hours of his or her time

40:34Before and after school doing the work the one that's you know buying hundreds of dollars worth of of classroom supplies You can also find the anecdote of the lazy teacher who's giving you a scantron not grading anything themselves and spending zero dollars Right the anecdotes don't matter what what ultimately matters is the fact that We are self-selecting for this profession and because we're self-selecting for this profession and because the incentive structure exists So that the individual is their own advocate and there are political Processes at play that are beneficial both to the politicians and the unions and the individual teachers themselves What we have as a system that's Mostly pretty fair because I could make the argument teachers are overpaid And I could probably substantiate those more friends lose more friends I could substantiate that if you want to compare them to other people that have a master's degree Because if you want to make a fair comparison It's a calling it's dealing with Sometimes difficult to deal with Segment of the population. There's a lot of odd after hours sort of needs and it's taxing on you professionally and personally

41:37Social work But nobody talks about the social worker, right? But everybody wants to talk about the teacher So I think that self-selection the idea that there are benefits to you. Maybe you're a mom And you want summers off with your kids and you want to have the same time off that your kids have There are things that are not going to be measured in the way that you were compensated There are alternative types of compensation like the pension The health benefits and some of the things that we didn't get into that need to be accounted for I think The go one for team Paul here. I think There's an option to have your your kids go to the same school you teach at even if you're out of out of the district And that's a huge benefit from just Rides and logistics of your your family operation And so here's here's the thing am I saying Teachers are bad or teachers wrong or teachers overpaid. I'm not making that claim I am making the claim that teachers are not as dire off as They like to represent and the incentive structures are set up in such a way where they have to make that case

42:40Hmm, I again, I don't I'm not an expert here. I really goes based on What you know friends and colleagues say and I hear this a lot You know got a good friend that's got his own podcasts That you know talks about I think a lot of these issues would be interesting to Kind of reference those and see if there's a different a different layer we're missing here But I like like you said and like this this Adam Smith guy whoever that is Uh said I I mean you want uh You want it to advocate for your own interest, right sure and and you even said it, you know, hey, I want to get paid more So having them say this I if I'm understanding I'm trying to steal man your argument What you're saying is yes, they should advocate for getting paid more just like everybody else and it's not a special Yes, but let's do it more honestly. Yeah, let's not always frame it as this victimhood mentality this falling on a you know

43:40on a My my cross to bear right yeah, because nobody forced you to be a teacher right you chose to be a teacher It was a calling there was a certain benefit structure if it wasn't in place you wouldn't do it you wouldn't do it for free Most people and so I think we need a more reasonable approach here and maybe that reasonable approach Includes a different way of approaching funding rather than it just always being the burden of the taxpayer maybe we need some sort of market adjustment or A tie like like minimum wage I would make the argument minimum wage needs to be a function of purchasing power in society Maybe some of these government funded jobs need to be tied to Gross domestic product or the consumer price index or something that's going to allow people to Always have a similar standard of living And then we decide what is the value statement of that profession and what should that standard of living be one of the things that frustrates me when you start talking about student athletics is you know the fundraising that goes on because they're there's very clearly a a

44:44funding limitation to high school sports where you know you pay for a coach maybe an assistant coach and some you know Field fees and that's about it like you know a ball or some nets or you know whatever and it's it's The fundraising that makes those programs successful and I watch it time and time again where you know the nicer schools To Frederick Douglass done bar Lafayette, you know get a lot more funding because they've got parents with you know expendable income and So they get more opportunities and and I see that kind of it in the academic level two With where they can fundraise more and so there's that's another kind of the funding option, but it's it's not it's not fair Well, it's not perfect, right? It was not perfect, but it's the fairness or that I Can we use the word equity without getting cancelled in 2026 the equity portion would be Rather than one school benefiting from their individual effort. Maybe it goes to a pooled fund

45:45Then it's distributed based on the populations. I'd love to see that because it really is is a shame that you know the you know Lafayette girls get to pop in a big old Womble's bus with a bathroom and drive down to Gatlinburg and have a good time, which I loved I loved that we could do that Some of these other schools just can't do that Yeah, I don't disagree and speaking of funding if you'd like to sponsor or show we are now looking for sponsors here at the soapbox So hit us up on our DMs if anybody is even still listening because I'm pretty sure I've alienated about half our audience I'd say I'd say you did yeah, all right Thanks for listening to the soapbox We've got a brand new website. What is that site? That is soapboxlex.com so you can check us out on the web You can also check us out on your favorite streaming platforms including We're on Spotify. We're on Apple and we're on Amazon Of course if you want to check us out and actually see what you're Listening to we do have videos well on YouTube and I don't know if you knew this, but Spotify does video too