SungAh Lee, International Organisation for Migration: Sudan needs us

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Available now on the documentary from the BBC World Service. Is Europe turning against net zero and pro-patriol cars? German electric car makers fear they can't compete with China. And in the Czech Republic, a party devoted to motorists is in government. Join me, Chris Bulby, for assignment on a new force driving European politics. Listen now, by searching for the documentary, wherever you get to your BBC podcasts. Hello, I'm Wahegam Waura, presenter of Focus on Africa. And this is the interview from the BBC World Service, the best conversations coming out of the BBC, people shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united.

1:03Do not make that boat crossing, do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treating like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I speak to Song Ali, from the international organisation for migration, where she is deputy director general for management and reform. She recently travelled to Sudan, where the war has entered its fourth year. As the civil war in Sudan enters its fourth year, donors are meeting in Berlin to discuss ways to mobilise aid and revive peace talks. Sudan is burning. Three years of a shattering war has left one of Africa's ancient nations on the brink of collapse. Tains of thousands are killed, and millions are forced out of their homes. So, Dan Silva War erupted in 2023 between the army and a paramilitary group that rapid support forces, with its roots in the notorious Janjaweed militia.

2:05The conflict has seen human suffering on a huge scale, with 65% of the population in need of food, water, shelter and medicine. More than 150,000 people have died in the conflict across the country, and about 12 million people have fled their homes, leading to what is considered the world's worst humanitarian crisis. Song Ali describes what she saw on the ground, and how it felt to return to the war to a country she had spent time in as a child. So, it is a really severe crisis that I'm seeing here in Sudan. In cartoon, it was actually a very emotional roller coaster for me. So, I had the opportunity to visit the home time that I grew up. And first, I was really excited at the fact that after almost 40 years, that I could visit that place. But then I saw the damage, the loss, the buildings being destroyed,

3:12the infrastructure being completely damaged in that area. And it was heartbreaking. You'll also hear Song Ali explain how current conflicts are changing migration patterns. And the impact, the international organization for migration believes, cuts to government aid budgets are having on people affected by war. So, when humanitarian development aid funding is reduced, people are left with fewer options. And when I look at what is happening to the attorneys, when I look at what is happening to the displaced population, if they don't find stability, if they don't find livelihoods, if they don't find a way to survive and where they are, the movements are going to be more dangerous, and the movements are going to continue. Sometimes we need to understand that now, might lead to more costly intervention in the future.

4:21Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Song Ali, from the international organization for migration. In a conversation, I recorded last week. I know you've been in various parts of Sudan over the last couple of days. What have been your observations and your biggest concerns whilst on ground? So, I'm seeing one of the worst humanitarian crisis and the biggest displacement. I've been to Port Sudan, I've been to Khartoum, I've been to Al-Jazirah, Guadarraf, and now I'm in Kassala. And there is about 34 million people who's needing humanitarian aid. If you actually think about it, that's half of the UK population, so it's massive. If we think about displacement, at peak, it was 12 million.

5:21Now it's about 9 million based on our data. Again, if we think about a comparison, the whole population of London being displaced. So it is a really severe crisis that I'm seeing here in Sudan. In Khartoum, it was actually a very emotional roller coaster for me. So I had the opportunity to visit the home town that I grew up. So I spent a part of my childhood in Khartoum and I had the opportunity to visit back the area that I lived in and even the apartment building that I grew up. And first, I was really excited at the fact that after almost 40 years, I think it's 37 years that I could visit that place. But then I saw the damage, the loss,

6:23the buildings in destroyed, the infrastructure being completely damaged in that area. And it was quite sad and heartbreaking. So that's what I see saw in Khartoum. I also went to visit a mobile clinic. The health system is close to being collapsed. And I think there's about 21 million and not having access to basic health services. In Gedarev and Kassala, these are the states that have been hosting displaced population. So already with the climate impact, the impact of the war, the infrastructure is really stretched. And because they're also hosting big number of displaced population, there's really a need for basic health system, education, water and sanitation.

7:23I've seen people not having access to clean water. And also there's a need for shelter, a food. So it's really a very severe situation. You met government officials. Obviously these are government officials allied to the military in Khartoum. Who are working on different sectors? Water, health care, education. What resources do they have at hand to begin to rebuild? And what pressing challenges do they have at this time? In those three sectors, water, health care and education. So as I mentioned, the health health care system is facing severe challenges. We are working together with the government, but there is still a lot of support needed, like the mobile clinics that I mentioned, that IOM and other UN agencies are operating, because there's still 21 million people who don't have access to basic health services.

8:27Water, I have seen in Al Jazeera and also in Gedarev. There is a lack of clean water. And also these are agriculture sectors, where the irrigation systems are damaged. So there is a need for water infrastructure as well. Education, say, education system has been struggling. And we have seen in places like Kisala, because there was a lot of displaced population. Also being displaced in schools, the school system has been damaged and also having difficulties as well. So we are working together with the government, especially in the state level, are very much focusing on recovery and providing these services. But it is obvious that they need a lot of support from the international community as well. Did you meet any of the leaders of the warring factions whilst on your tour?

9:31And so, IOM is really focusing on providing immediate humanitarian aid and also making sure that we work together to lay down the foundational work for all the attorneys coming back to their original home state. We have so far seen 4 million people returning and we anticipate just in cartoon there will be additional 2 million returning to cartoon. But it would be very difficult for the attorneys when they come back to rebuild their home because the reality they're coming back is quite stark. So I think it is important we make sure that the return can become a pathway for recovery and development and not another circle for survival. What do you think and what sense do you get about

10:33what the conditions are elsewhere? Because these are areas where you have access to and relief agencies have access to. But we know that fighting is still ongoing in some parts of Darfur, in Kordofan states as well. And what are you hearing about the conditions there? Yes. We are getting some reports. However, those places the humanitarian access is being challenged due to the ongoing conflict and attacks and also some of these bureaucratic impediments in making sure that we can get all the travel documents cleared. So it is a challenging situation to access but the report that we are getting it is a very severe humanitarian crisis in those places as well. Well, we know that several countries recently gathered in Berlin a conference on Sudan and pledges were made to the tune of I think is $1.3 billion if that's what I last heard.

11:33But we've also had certain players say that it's one thing to make pledges. It's another to deliver them. What sort of shortfalls have you seen in the delivery of pledges to Sudan and what are you doing to try and you know, some on to those challenges? So as I mentioned, Sudan is facing severe humanitarian crisis and there is a huge gap in infrastructure, basic services to the population. Also, as I mentioned, the people who are returning, it will be very important for them because I see the resilience of the Sudanese people trying to rebuild but it will be extremely challenging if there's no basic infrastructure and basic services to provide that opportunity. And therefore, it is important that the states, the commitments that made is, the commitment they have made is delivered.

12:35And I think the international attention and collaboration is really important. It is a pivotal moment for Sudan. I mean, sorry if I'm pressing on this issue but I'd like some specifics where possible. How much do you reckon is needed to provide basic support in the areas that you visited? And how much is available at the moment? What's the balance? So for IOM, we have pledged for $170 million or 2026 or the Sudan response. Currently, we have received about 40% of that amount. But if we think about also what's happening in the neighboring countries and the returns and cross-border movement, we have pledged for $270 million for Sudan and the neighboring countries as well. So the gap is still big and it is really important

13:35that we put attention to this issue. You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. Available now on the documentary from the BBC World Service. Is Europe turning against net zero and pro-patriol cars? German electric car makers fear they can't compete with China and in the Czech Republic, a party devoted to motorists is in government. Join me, Chris Bulby, for assignment on a new force driving European politics. Listen now by searching for the documentary wherever you get to your BBC podcasts. With a conflict in Sudan entering its fourth year, I was keen to look at the situation of displaced people and so when this opportunity to interview Sun Ali was made available, I was grateful,

14:35especially because of her personal connection with Sudan which came across in this interview. She wasn't just talking about a place she visited once or she read statistics about. But this is a place where she grew up and she knew what the country looked like. She knew the people. And now when she came back for this visit, it was a completely different situation. Her knowledge of Sudan surprised me but also made me glad that there are people who are supporting the humanitarian cause there who are aware of what Sudan used to look like, at least her tomb, and hopefully one day this vision will come back to life. Listening to Sun Ali and then hearing from analysts, familiar with the warring parties, makes one thing very clear. There's a massive gap between what the leaders want and what the people want. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Sun Ali. What considerations did you make as to where you want to visit? This is a country that's been in turmoil for the last three years.

15:38I know there's a lot of different areas you could have gone to. Why did you decide on these particular states? Is it a safety issue where you can actually reach? Is it where you feel the biggest needs are, give us a sense? Absolutely. Yes, there's also a safety issue, but also because Khartoum and Al Jajira are the two states that we are anticipating the biggest return. Or Khartoum, we have seen already based on our data, 1.8 million people returning, and we anticipate another 2 million. In Al Jajira, based on our data, about 80 to 85 percent of the population have already returned. So we need to work together to make sure that these returns can go towards recovery and stability. Kisala and Jada Reff are the two states that are hosting a big amount of displaced population. And this is important to make sure that these populations

16:39have a way to get a basic humanitarian need and therefore have some stability. We will also see these populations moving back to their home and states as well. And IOM is here to support and deliver or those movement and populations in need. I know you've spoken to government officials, you've spoken to citizens in the different places you've visited. What are their reflections on the state of their country and their future? You know, as we get into the fourth year, are they hopeful that a brighter day lies ahead or are they more sort of despondent with the fact that the world has been unable to stop the conflict in Sudan? So many of the government officials I met, especially on the state level, they knew very well the issues. They knew where the gaps were.

17:40They knew the critical lack of services and infrastructure. So they were very much hoping that we can work together with the government so that we put at least the foundation around for the people to rebuild. The people I met, for example, I met with the women groups and one woman told me that she lost her husband and the son at the same time and she came back to her home state. I cannot imagine how devastating that will be, but she found support from other women and from peer groups and they're working together to support each other, to provide a psychosocial support, but also trying to think what kind of income generating activities that they can do together. I was partnering with these women groups and I see resilience in them. OK, I mean, even as we reflect on Sudan,

18:40there are conflicts in other parts of the African continent and I know IOM looks at migration patterns. What can you tell us about migration patterns in late 2025 into 2026? Anything different, anything stand out with everything we're seeing in the world, conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, for Africa, what are the migration trends like from where you sit? So what we're seeing from these conflicts are, these conflicts are reshaping, how, who and where, the migrations are happening. If we look at the conflicts zone like Sudan, Afghanistan, and Horn of Africa, these conflicts not only just increased the number of migration, but it has made the migration route more complex, more fragmented, and more dangerous and lethal. Also, we actually see these movements

19:43usually as far as happening within the country and also in the neighboring countries. And sometimes we see a longer pattern of a stranded migrants in this transition. And afterwards, they move forward. We are seeing Libya, especially Eastern part of Libya, re-emerging as a transit hub, and we also see the changes of nationalities that are arriving in Europe. I think it's important to note that enforcing border and just focusing that doesn't reduce the number of arrivals. What happens is there are new emerging routes coming out, and these routes are more complex, more expensive, more lethal, and dangerous. And therefore, it is important when we look

20:44at our partnership and international collaboration to also see how we can support the displaced population within the country and also supporting the transit countries as well. It's important to note that 80 to 85% of the migrants in Africa is currently within the region. So supporting the stability of the region will be also an important aspect. I mean, you've read some interesting aspects. One, I want to pick up on EU nations have been signing pact with African countries to stem migration at source. Is this a sustainable route in your view or approach? We believe it is very important for regional coordination and collaboration, because as I mentioned, these routes are much more fragmented now and becoming complex. No one nation can solve or address these issues. As mentioned, also these partnership and collaboration

21:47should not only look at the border management and enforcement, but also looking at how we can support the transit countries as well as regional collaboration and the stability community as well. Maybe my last question then would be with what you've seen whilst you were in Sudan, what impact would you say aid cuts have had on those who most needed and on migration? So when humanitarian development aid funding is reduced, people are left with fewer options. And when I look at what is happening to the attorneys, when I look at what is happening to the displaced population, if they don't find stability, if they don't find likelihood, if they don't find a way to survive and where they are, the movements are going to be more dangerous and the movements are going to continue.

22:48Sometimes we need to understand that aid cuts now might lead to more costly intervention in the future. And one last word from you on your visit to Sudan, one last reflection, I'll leave that up to you. It has been a sobering and a humbling experience coming back to Sudan at this moment, I have also seen resilience of Sudanese people, their hospitality to displaced population, and even with the stretched infrastructure and services, they were welcome in a hosting displaced population. I do think we need to focus both on humanitarian aid and recovery efforts Sudan needs us. Thanks for listening to the interview. If you enjoyed this conversation,

23:48you can find many more episodes of the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including ones with Wini Bianima, the head of UN AIDS, Muhammad Idris, Nigeria's Information Minister, and UN Chief Antonio Guterres. Until next time, it's bye for now. Available now on the documentary from the BBC World Service. Is Europe turning against net zero and pro-patriol cars? German electric car makers fear they can't compete with China, and in the Czech Republic, a party devoted to motorists is in government. Join me Chris Bulby for assignment on a new force driving European politics. Listen now by searching for the documentary wherever you get to your BBC podcasts.