Stop The Amway Tool Scam Scott Johnson and Peter Mingils talk about Florida Direct Selling News Coalition and DSA and MLM News

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1:27Hello, everyone. Peter Mingles here. You are listening to us on Building Fortunes Radio. It's www.buildingfortunesradio.com. It's Saturday night. It's kind of a heroic day, and we're going to talk a little bit about that, I guess, as we kind of get started, but it's the end of February, 2026, for those people that are keeping the score, again, on February 28th. On Saturday night, at 8.30 p.m. Eastern, 7.30 on the central side, we do a radio show with Scott Johnson. This is actually Scott Johnson's radio show, and we've been doing this for a number of years since I believe 2015. Crazy. We've been doing this for a super duper long time, and as a result of 2015-16 in my mind, for a second, I'm going to tell you in a little bit, but we've been doing this radio show every week. Barring just a couple of maybe events where we took the day off because it fell on a holiday, or maybe something might have happened, but there weren't a lot. We've been here for hundreds of

2:29radio shows. We talk about different and various things in the home-based business arena, and it started as a result of a radio show I did with a gentleman named Roger Van Bliss engine, and Roger Van Bliss engine was writing a commentary for a website called SeekingAlpha.com, and on SeekingAlpha.com, Roger was talking about Herbalife, which is a publicly traded company, and he was squeezing in some stuff with Vima, which is not a publicly traded company, but had the eye of the FTC, with the attention of the FTC. Anyway, so we did this really great radio show series, and Scott called me up, and he said, listen, there's something a lot of you guys are not talking about, and I said, what's that Scott? He said the tool scam associated with MLM, and I did not know if what Scott was referencing was what I was thinking when he said the tool scam. Do I have been associated with AMO3 separate times? I joined AMO3 mostly because I think the first

3:32time maybe somebody kind of pitched me, and I was in a network marketing and the direct sales company called Electrolux. Electrolux is for many people that don't know sold vacuums for a really long time. Dennis Johnson, the owner of the company, saw the wisdom behind adding a network marketing compensation plan, so we had an MLM compensation plan called Superlink, and Superlink added another seven levels down to our compensation plan, and as quickly as it started, it kind of ended because it didn't generate any real significant plus sales across the country. Most people just figured out how to manipulate the comp plan, and there's one thing about a really aggressive direct sales force to look at your comp plan, they'll figure out how to screw you every time, they'll maximize it, they'll cheat you, they'll do whatever, and that's what a lot of the Electrolux distributors did with the MLM comp plan, but that's how it became familiar with MLM, and as a result

4:33of any of that sort of stuff, when I joined AMO3, I'm going to see what it's like in blah, blah, blah, and they spend more time getting me to recruit people, and less time trying to make me sell any kind of product, and I saw that I had to buy these books and these tapes, and go to these functions all the time, where there's a hotel meeting, or a home meeting, or a regional meeting, and I just said, you know, guys like me really don't need that raw raw stuff, I'm interested in knowledge, like on how to sell these things, and pricing, and how the compensation plan works, and they didn't want to hear any of it, they would just like recruit, recruit, recruit, and I'm like, I get it, but when Scott said something about the tool scam, I said, I wonder if he's talking about the same thing, and I asked him if he had a website, and he said he did, stop the AMO2ToolScannedOutworkpress.com, and that's what I realized, and what he was referencing is what I was thinking, and as Scott explained, you know, his version of the tool scam, I dotted my head in the agreement, and I kind of witnessed a lot of that stuff myself, so Scott, let's do some radio shows on this for sure, but I don't know

5:37how much we'll be able to talk about just tools, because everything gets old over time, and we can't talk about it, you know, only forever, but what happened was I didn't really Scott knew a lot about MLM, and herbal life was going through what they were doing with Bill Ackman and the FTC and Carl Icon, and it was kind of high drama, and Vima was in the mix as well, so we started doing these radio shows, and it kind of stuck, I mean, we've been doing this for a long time, and I'll sincerely say, if you listen in, regardless of whether Scott's doing one with maybe an X-Hamway distributor like we did last week, or we talk about different things that are happening in the industry, or a combination of both, you'll get enough information that I can sincerely say, you listen to a half a dozen or a dozen of our radio shows, and you won't be surprised. If you get scammed, you won't get surprised, because we probably covered it one way or another, the type of scam that you might have gotten scammed by, and my job isn't to make decisions for you're a consenting adult, you know how to do what you want to do, and this is like a free

6:41world, and if you want to do whatever you want to do, as long as that hurt and somebody, like hurting somebody, then go do it, but if you get screwed up or you get messed up, or you do things the wrong way, and you lose time or money or resources or friendships, you won't be surprised. My commitment to you is that you won't be surprised why we probably covered it, so having said that in my somewhat lengthy thing over here, I just want to say, thanks Scott Johnson for being here, and I'm going to fill you in Scott on some of the things that I've been working on, and some of the things that have been happened as we start after you go through your introduction, but if it wasn't for you, I don't think I'd be as intuned or as sharp on what's going on in the industry, so I want to say thanks to Scott Johnson for doing his own radio show on Saturday nights at 7.30 Central, 8.30 Eastern. So Scott, over to you. Hey Peter, thanks, and likewise, I probably wouldn't be as interested in all of this, either, even though I'm very interested in it, because you keep me sharp, you send me stuff that I don't come across, and you know, the old saying iron sharpens iron, and you know, tomorrow is

7:46March 1st, which means that this show is the 10 years, 6 month mark, so it's 10 and a half years tonight that we've been doing this, because we started in early September, like you said, 2015, and you go to the end of February, now you're 6 months into the year, so that's where we're at, it's 10 and a half years of doing the show every week, let me say, with very few exceptions. I mean, we've even done a show, it was just a couple days after you broke your ankle. I did one from the hospital, but it's been like, you took two weeks off to visit relatives up in New York City and New York State, you know, well-deserved, and you know, we each had a son or daughter getting married, so that wouldn't have been a good form to be doing the show during the wedding ceremony, or the after party, so anyway, our excuse has been very good, you know, very few,

8:51I think we've only missed like five or six, I think we had one where we had a technical difficulty, but yeah, it's been less than 10, you can count them on two hands, easily, the ones we've missed, so I do appreciate you very much as well, and you know, I have to really kind of thank Bill Ackman for knowing more about- Springtime is almost here, and if you've been itching to redo every room in your home, Bob's Discom furniture can help. When you shop at Bob's, you get well-worthy every day low prices on fabulous furniture for every room, everything from stylish mid-century dining sets and top-rated bubble-pedic mattresses with the best warranties in the business to pop up sleepers sectionals all for a fraction of what they cost elsewhere, so stop in or shop online and get well-worthy pieces for less, only at Bob's. Bubble Wall is here from 2311 Racing, you know it's slower than a pace car waiting at the car wash, that's when I fire up

9:52Chamba Casino. It turns those slow minutes into fast fun. With new games every week, you'll never get bored. Next time you're stuck in the slow lane, speed up with Chamba. Play now at chambacasino.com. Let's Chamba. Sponsored by Chamba Casino, no purchase necessary, VGW GroupFord, where prohibited by law, 21 plus terms and conditions apply. Just the tools cam, because back in late 2012 when he went after Herbalife, I looked at his, I think it was like a three and a half hour, something like 342 slide, you know, presentation that he gave, and what struck me in that is number one, it was very detailed, but also all the similarities between Amway and Herbalife, it was just amazing to me. They had lack of retail sales, they had tool scams, which are two, you know, my two hot buttons, and it was just amazing to me, the parallels, and that's what got me interested in, you know, not only Herbalife, but other MLMs,

10:56that started to notice that other MLMs have a lot of similarities as well, you know, notably overpriced products, which are decoriously difficult to sell to customers, and you know, that's really the linchpin of the whole thing, is the retail sales, and so yeah, I started to get more, you know, educated in other MLMs, because I had been asked over the years, you know, prior to 2012, because I found out about Amway's tool scanning in 2005, and I was asked a number of occasions, well why don't you, you know, talk about other MLMs, and I didn't do that, and I told people, there are two reasons why I don't do that, number one, I prefer not to talk about something, I don't know much about, you know, I don't want to just blabber, like you see a lot of people blabbering, especially now with social media, they don't know what they're talking about, but they're blabbering, and also, you know, it was pretty busy with Amway at the time, because you had,

12:02not only finding out about the tools cam, you had, you know, people getting kicked out of Amway for various reasons, and you had lawsuits, the Pecorni lawsuit was, you know, a class action lawsuit, Amway sued me back in 2010, so I was busy with that, I want actually, if you want to see the actual settlement, you can go on my website, the one that you mentioned, stop the AmwayToolscam.wordpress.com, and I think it's the very last section, because before I settled with Amway, we didn't go a trial, we settled, I said, hey, if we settle, I want this settlement to be able to be made public, and Amway agreed to that, which is unusual, you know, whether it's an MLM or non-MLM type of a class action or any kind of a lawsuit, really, one of the outcomes usually is that you don't know what happened, you know, they just say, hey, we settled, or you might get little pieces like we settled,

13:06and there was a monetary exchange, or, you know, you won't get the whole story, though, but you'll get the whole settlement looking at that website, and you'll see that I won, because it's a thing where I didn't pay them any money, I agreed to do a couple things, I'll say that they clipped my wings ever so slightly, because I agreed not to communicate with a current AmwayIBO distributor, although there's limitations there too, I can't communicate with them if it's reaching out to them on their platform, you know, their phone number, their email, their website, but if they come on any website that they do not own or operate, it's allowable by the settlement for me to interact with them, and so, you know, no one could foresee the evolution of social media back in 2011 when

14:08this got settled, but that's become more and more advantageous to me over the years as people you know that are in Amway go on other sites and make comments, I can go on there and interact with them, because the settlement allows me to do that, so the other big thing, I'll put in quotes big thing, is I can't use cuss words when I'm talking to an AmwayIBO, so, and I won't go into the long story behind that, but it's no big deal, because I don't normally cuss anyway, and it was one of those things that it was easy to agree to put it that way, it's easy to give up something that doesn't run bad or to you, and get to the end point, you know, and make a deal, like Donald Trump would say, let's make a deal, and so it was a good deal for me, a really bad deal for Amway, not that I'm the only person now that's speaking out against them, I'm pretty much probably insignificant compared to all the other stuff that's going on, you know, with the internet

15:14and social media in particular, but it's nice to have that freedom, so anyway that's a little bit of background. Springtime is almost here, and if you've been itching to redo every room in your home, Bob's discount furniture can help. When you shop at Bob's, you get wow-worthy every day low prices on fabulous furniture for every room, everything from stylish mid-century dining sets and top-rated Bobo-pedic mattresses with the best warranties in the business to pop up sleepers sectionals all for a fraction of what they cost elsewhere, so stop inner shop online and get wow-worthy pieces for less, only at Bob's. Tyler Reddick here from 2311 Racing, another checkered flag for the books. Time to celebrate with Chamba. Jump in at ChambaCasino.com. Let's Chamba. No purchase necessary, BTW Group. Boyd, we're prohibited by law, CCNC, 21 Plus, sponsored by ChambaCasino. And I mentioned, and you mentioned, you know, the tool scam, and let me explain for the new listeners what that is. In Amway, the upper level distributors, they call them IBOs,

16:16now independent business owners, they sell the downline, people in their organizations, various things that are called tools. The more formal term is BSM, business support, materials, but these tools are things like tickets to meetings that you pay for. These are things like books that you pay for, recordings, website access, voicemail, phone apps, all these things that are done with the intent to educate and motivate the downline, which I think they do a decent job of doing that. What they don't do and what makes it a scam is they don't tell people, hey, this is where we make most of our money. It's not Amway, we make most of our money from the tools. If they said that, it would no longer be a tool scam. It would just be another profit center, but they don't do that. Amway doesn't want to do that. In fact, you can go on my YouTube page,

17:17and I'll give you where everything is kind of centered around my websites, my YouTube, my email, my phone number, if anyone wants to, you know, discuss things. If you go to facebook.com, slash, stop the Amway tool scam, all one word, stop the Amway tool scam, you'll find links to various websites, YouTube, my input in 2022 to the FTC, when they requested information on what they were interested in, which is product claims and income claims. I gave a very detailed, I think it's the most detailed response that's posted on the FTC website. It's also, of course, on my Facebook page, it's the pin story at the top, so it's easy to find, as well as all those other links. There's also on my YouTube channel,

18:20a couple things. One is an audio recording by Rich the Boss back in. I think it was 1983, basically telling the app line, hey, we know about your tool scam, and you better not get off, there's going to be serious consequences. Well, that never materialized, so that's, you know, words are easy, actions are something else. And then there's also a video. In fact, it's the only video on my YouTube channel, the rest of them are just sort of a sampling of some of the older shows that we did in their audio's only, but the video is done by a guy by name of Andy Andrews, who at the time was a diamond in the early 2000s, and they had approached Amway with an idea that they would sell like two or three hundred dollars worth of tools to a brand new IBO, and then they would share the profit, not just at the top, like it's been done for several decades,

19:20but all the way up and down the chain, you know, just like the Amway profit is, you know, share it up and down the chain when somebody buys something. So I should say up the chain, not down the chain. So anyway, Amway's on board with this, but then they changed their mind, and this speech that Andy Andrews was giving, if you've ever been an Amway and been doing a major function, you'll understand right away, he's talking in a major function. In front of a bunch of IBOs, probably at least thousands of them, and he was saying, look, Amway went squarely on us, we're trying to bring him back to our side, and I was on a phone call with them, and they told us on the phone that only the top two percent of the distributors, you know, the IBOs should be making a profit from the tools, and the other 98 percent should not even be aware that there's an opportunity to make money from the tools. And he says,

20:22man, I wish they had put that in writing, and then he opens up, you know, his jacket that he's wearing pulls out a letter, and he says they put it in writing. Now, I've never seen the letter, but I do believe that he was being accurate, because at the time, remember, he's trying to get Amway to change their mind back to supporting them. So for him to make up a letter like that, and just lie about it, you know, would have been counterproductive. And so I believe that that letter is legitimate, it's real. In fact, when Amway sued me, my attorney contacted Andy Andrews, one of his representatives, to get a copy of that letter and they declined. So I don't know, maybe they agreed with Amway to, you know, not others the letters who knows, maybe they just didn't want to get involved, which is what most people do. You know, when they leave an MLM after being scammed, and they just don't want to deal with it anymore, they're afraid, whatever,

21:23whatever their motivation is, they don't do anything, which is frustrating, because I think if more people spoke up, we wouldn't have this problem that we have with these MLM scams. So anyway, that's the tool scam, short and sweet. And I should also point out my favorite guy, I like to talk about, you know, my poster child, and I call him, the guy by name of what's his name? I can just try to say, Brickhart, Brickhart, Brickhart. So he spelled his name, BRIG, H-A-R-T-400s, and each name. And Brickhart was also an Amway distributor, and also coincidentally, just like Andy Andrews got to get down in the early 2000s. And so he joined another MLM, and if you Google his name, Brickhart, and Salt Lake City, because he gave an interview

22:25to a Salt Lake City media outlet, you can read the article yourself, you know, just do an internet online search, Google, whatever you use, and you'll see this article pop up, and he basically says, I was making almost a million dollars a year from Amway before I got kicked out. And he was a big, I think, double diamond, very popular guy back in the day, very well known, even though he was not in my direct upline, he was very well known across, at least, you know, my upline organizations, and you know, it's very outgoing, effervescent kind of personality. He was a performer, a surfer dude, up in your neck of the woods there, Peter, in the Jacksonville, Florida area, and you know, he's a pothead, and then he found Amway and got rich, and you know, you know, the story, if you've ever listened to an Amway recording, I was this dirt bag, and then I found Amway, now I'm rich as heck, and you know, I've dumped all my, you know, former lifestyle, all that kind of stuff. Anyway,

23:28he says, I was making almost a million dollars a year from Amway, but I was making about eight to 10 million dollars a year from the tools. And the reason I call him my poster child is because that's the largest multiplier that I've come across, because most former high-level Amway people do not speak up after they leave, they just leave and do something else, and you never hear from them again. But some of them, not very many, but a good handful, and all of them that I found are on my websites. They will talk about, you know, they may at least twice as much from tools versus Amway, which by the way, that's two-thirds of your income. So, you know, you're basically lying by omission about two-thirds of your income, and they like to show off their lifestyle. And Amway is kind of clamped down on that in recent years, but even just the fact that, you know, you're able to not have to work anymore, that you can work Amway full-time, they call it retiring. You know, you basically

24:34don't have to have a job because you're making enough money at Amway. Now, you have to work your butt-off, though, because Amway and every other MLM is in a constant state of collapse. You have to put people in faster than they're getting out, and they're getting out fast. So, you got to put them in faster. It's a lot of work. So, it's not like you just sit back and relax after you quote-unquote retire, and now you're doing Amway or whatever in the LM full-time. It's not that way. And so, anyway, you know, that's the kind of thing that's on my websites, as examples like that. A guy by the name of Orrin Woodward, who got kicked out back in 2007, said that my emeralds and above make four to five times, or they made, you know, past 10s, four to five times, more from the tools and from Amway. And this goes back into the 70s. I've got a guy that was with Amway back in the 1970s, who says, oh, yeah, we're making several times

25:40more from tools than from Amway. So, it's long lived. It's really across the board. I'm not saying every single organization, but it's probably, I was talking to a guy years ago, who sort of, I don't know how he exactly, became an emerald, but he was basically, he bought it, or somehow he inherited it from a friend or something. But he was in a meeting and he said that he estimates less than five percent of the ideas in Amway are not in a tool scam type of an organization. So, that just gives you an idea. It's a very small minority. So, anyway, that's the tool scam. Springtimes the perfect time to turn the page and refresh your home style. The only problem, it can be expensive. Luckily, there's a better way to shop well-worthy pieces for less, at Bob's discount furniture. Bob's negotiates with manufacturers to get you the best everyday low prices, giving the shopping power back to you. The power to get more style,

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27:47and I'm willing to consider particularly the service type MLMs, like the insurance, and some of the real estate type MLMs, and some of the high-dollar MLMs, things where people don't necessarily want to be involved as distributors, but they're willing to be customers. And I can't think of a high-dollar type product off the top of my head, but certainly, most people do not want to be insurance salesmen. Most people do not want to be real estate agents, but a lot of people are interested in looking at insurance for themselves as a customer, or people buying sell houses from time to time. And so there are markets for that as customers, and I think that those particular MLMs probably do have pretty good retail sales,

28:55and when I say retail sales, let me define that, because a retail sale is someone who has not signed the MLM contract, right? They're not eligible for MLM compensation, and that's what makes them a customer, is they trade their money for a good or service, and that's the end of it, just like you go into a online or a brick-and-mortar store, you know, there's no massive contract or agreement. When you go to Walmart, you just go there and you buy it, that's it, you're done, and that's what a customer is. And so the issue with MLMs, most of them have very over-priced products, and so they don't have very many customers, and that is actually the definition of an illegal pyramid, despite what you might hear out there from other people. That really is a definition of an illegal pyramid, and I say other people, I'm including the FTC, because they don't have a clue what an illegal pyramid is either. So, and you can go to their website and read all about,

29:56what they think about illegal pyramids, and you'll probably get confused, because it's just a winding road of nonsense and different scattered, you know, random ideas that really don't have any commissiveness, and really simplicity, which is what you need for the average person who maybe just getting involved with MLM, they don't even know what MLM stands for. You know, some people think it's been loving men or something, because that is what MLM stands for in the gay community, but multilevel marketing. Most people aren't even aware of it, you know, let alone know what it means. And so when you go to a website like the FTC, the very low percentage of people that do, by the way, because most people aren't even aware of the FTC or what their function is. And so, you know, it's really kind of a waste of government spending, in my opinion, for the FTC

30:56to even have a website, particularly since it's not very useful, and they really should be honing in on, you know, looking at things like, well, what really is an illegal pyramid? Let's really sit down and figure that out. You know, what's the real root cause? What's the real simplistic source of the problem? Not all the scatter-bring random nonsense that they participate in. Anyway, I'll stop by so far. So the lack of retail sales is what illegal pyramid is. And I think most MLMs, particularly the product-based MLMs, have that feature, that they don't have retail sales to any extent. And, you know, the next natural question is, well, how much is enough? And what I do is I use the FTC's settlement with Vima and Herbalife, that you mentioned earlier, both those companies settled with the FTC back in 2016. And when they

32:05agreed, and when I say they, I mean, you know, both Vima and Herbalife with the FTC. So each one of these groups said, this is acceptable to us. We're going to sign off on it. And in both cases, it's around 50%. Vima, it was 50.01% minimum retail sales to customers. And the Herbalife was a little bit more complicated. It was a sliding scale and kind of weird, but they made it happen. The middle of it, though, is 50%. And so that's why I use 50% as a minimum. You can always exceed minimums. So you have to have at least 50% of your products or services being sold to customers, people who are not distributors. They're not in it for making money or anything like that. They're just saying, hey, that's worth the trade off between the money and the product or service.

33:08But I think you'll find most MLMs, it's like AMway. And it's in the neighborhood of 3.4%, which is where AMway is based on a lawsuit that Warren Woodward, who I mentioned earlier, did after he got kicked out of AMway. And he actually disclosed what was a confidential study in AMway counter-suitum for releasing confidential information. What's interesting is AMway did not sue him for being wrong about the 3.4%. They didn't say, that's not the right number or you took out a context or you exaggerated or anything else. The only thing they sued him for essentially was you disclosed confidential information. You weren't allowed to do that. But it was in a public lawsuit, so it's out there. Now AMway's done a pretty good job of scrubbing the internet, but I've got that lawsuit on my website. You can read it. You can actually

34:10jot down the lawsuit number and look it up on pieceer.gov if you think I've doctored up the lawsuit. Check it out yourself. So anyway, that's kind of a high-level overview of both the lack of retail sales being an illegal pyramid. And the tool scams, which again, not every MLM has one, and I think that's Rico Fraud or at least Business Fraud because you're essentially saying to somebody when you approach him to joining MLM, hey, join me in my business and let me show you how it works. But if you leave out the fact that there's a tool scam where most of the profit is being made, then you're really committing fraud because if you lie in a business environment, it's fraud. And I don't know why the FTC and the FBI haven't done anything. I've contacted both numerous times, but here we are. That's one of the reasons we do this show a few weeks is to keep educating people, keep that process going. One of the challenges

35:16is a lot of people when they learn what's going on and they complain about it, they take the position that once they know about it, that everybody should already know about it. And that's just not the way to think about it because in this country alone, every year there's about four, somewhere between four and five million people who turn 18 every year. So you go from 17 years old when your biggest challenge is how to minimize the zits on your face, for example. And then 18, you've got a big target on your back because now you're at legal age and MLMs are targeting you. And there's, again, between four and five million people every year that become that age. And if you think about the first 10 years of adulthood, let's say, now you're talking between 40 and 50 million people. That's just the United States alone that are in that sort of sweet spot where they probably don't know about MLM because they

36:18have been approached. And so they're the suckers. They're the ones that are picked on the most, not that older people are exempt or immune or anything. But I can start that first 10 years, that first decade, but adult life is when you're sort of most, and I'll use the word I don't like the anti-MLM or to use, but you're the most vulnerable. You're the least educated about life. You're probably not doing well financially. That's pretty common when you're young. And you're looking for other avenues to make money. And you're easy pickings. And so that's just the way, you know, that's the way it is. And so that's why continuous education is necessary because it's a continuously replenishing population that's being targeted. It's not static. It's dynamic. It's refreshing constantly with new people. And that's why, you know, I'm frustrated

37:24that the other, I shouldn't say other anti-MLMers because I'm not anti-MLM like you, Peter. We're both not anti-MLM. We're only anti-MLM if it's done wrong, i.e. tool scams and lack of retail sales. And we're pro-MLM if it's being done right. If you don't have a tool scam, you know, you're either honest about the profit or you don't make a profit. And if you have retail sales, 50% minimum, then you're fine. Not that there's not other issues, right? Because every company whether it's MLM or not MLM has issues because it's made up of people. And people have issues. And so, you know, we're not going for perfection here. We're saying, hey, these are the two big areas that you need to know about. And once you sort of filter a particular MLM through these two things, you probably have a pretty good MLM on your hands. Now, you're going to have to work hard. You know, you can't be lazy and complain, which is what most people do. You have to apply yourself,

38:31you're going to have to be willing to learn and work hard and apply yourself. But it's probably a legitimate business. You know, it probably is a good MLM. And so, you know, that's really, you know, the overview of what we try to cover here, particularly for the new people. And also the stupid people like Marco, you know, has to have things repeated about a thousand times. And then it might start to sink in. But anyway, I'll stop there, Peter, because I know you wanted to say some things. You can make comments on what I said. And also, you said you wanted to get into some other areas tonight. So go right ahead. Sure. So a great review for those people with thing in, you know, you talked about the tools business and the retail sales. You know, the things about medical claims and income claims and other sort of stuff. The FTC usually deals with as far as deceptive claims. And Tina.org just recently had a highlight

39:32on Jay Nolan. So that's one thing that I'll just kind of reference. But before I get to Jay, before and before I forget, when I was thinking about when we started, it was 2015. In July of 2015, the dot news domain name became available. And a lot of people may not even know that even today the dot news is a domain name register. But there's like 4,000 if you will different types of extensions. So you can probably find a domain name in, you know, different kinds of things all the time. Whoops. I got that news calling. I'm going to let that one roll. So spring times the perfect time to turn the page and refresh your home style. The only problem, it can be expensive. Luckily, there's a better way to shop well-worthy pieces for less at Bob's discount furniture. Bob's negotiates with manufacturers to get you the best everyday low prices, giving the shopping power back to you. The power to get more style, comfort and quality for less

40:33on amazing pieces. Like stylish mid-century dining sets made for hosting those big spring branches, pop up sleeper sectionals with all the bells and whistles so you can turn any room into a guest room and next level Bobo-Pedic mattresses so you can get a great night's rest after you've finished redecorating every room. So when you're ready to spring into new style, stop into your nearest store or shop online and see how you can get well-worthy style for less with Bob's discount furniture. It is Ryan C. Crest here. There was a recent social media trend which consisted of flying on a plane with no music, no movies, no entertainment. But a better trend would be going to ChumbaCasino.com. It's like having a mini social casino in your pocket. ChumbaCasino has over a hundred online casino style games all absolutely free. It's the most fun you can have online and on a plane. So grab your free welcome bonus now at chumbaCasino.com. Sponsored by ChumbaCasino. In July, I'm so sorry, I'm going to let's just go. In July, I bought MLM.News.

41:39So for those people that are ever wondering that how old MLM.News is, and then I bought its sister websites. I'm going to call it like multi-level marketing.News. Pretty much we'll grab that. And then I bought anti-dash MLM.News and anti-MM.News without the dash as well. So I bought a whole bunch of dot news domain names. And we have like travel agency.News and health food.News and health coach.News will recently, there's a gentleman, his name is Gordon Hester. Gordon Hester is putting together a Florida division of coalition of direct sales or something like that. And there's another one of those in Texas and Utah, I believe. I don't know that much about them and I'm still kind of fuzzy on how this is going to work, but they're working towards handling regulations in direct sales and MLM by extension. And I was thinking, you know what? I'm going to go see if I can buy directsales.News and I can't believe it was available. So I bought directsales.News and direct selling.News was not, it was

42:42available at a premium price, but I figured that out too. So now we're launching directselling.News and directsales.News. And I'll probably be working one way or another with this Gordon gentleman who is working on the political framework of direct sales and maybe even David Grimaldi. But a really nice conversation with David Grimaldi earlier this week, Scott, and I'll tie you into it when it's appropriate. And he's super, super busy, but he called me back. We spent about 30 minutes on the phone. I left to hear my story, pulled him about the stuff that we're working on. It was a really great thing. It was very anxious to learn more about my background and some of my views. And I will say that he is definitely the right guy to handle the political thing. And I'll affectionately say he's, he was a college student in MLM, which means you probably know nothing about MLM. If you're a college student, you do an MLM. Because you could be an MLM, you could be an MLM for 30 years. And I don't know anything about MLM,

43:47meaning from the legal side. Most MLM people, they couldn't explain Scott what a pyramid scheme, or pyramid scam, or Ponzi scheme, or Ponzi scam, or, you know, on a registered security was, both people in the profession never learned the profession. But a really nice conversation with him. So who knows where it goes, but we launched directselling.News and directsales.News. And a whole bunch of other stuff on the Building Fortunes Radio side. If you go to the Music side, you'll be able to hear that. We put some deep dives together. So we're just doing some things to kind of raise the awareness. One of the conversations I had, now this is interesting, Scott. For those people unfamiliar with Electrolex, the vacuum cleaner company, it's no longer there. So Electrolex was a brand name brought over from Sweden, and then eventually sold to Sarah Lee, and then eventually kind of bought back themselves, and eventually sold to a gentleman named Joe Erso. Joe Erso is a direct sales billionaire. He runs lots of companies. He bought Electrolex

44:52for a steal, and bought it for the manufacturing facility. And of course, they're a distribution center. But they had five years. He did like a Gordon Gecko, kind of the thing. If you remember Gordon Gecko, the stockbroker kind of guy on Wall Street. He basically sold the brand name Electrolex back to Europe, or I don't know what the number was. Whatever it was, he sold it for 50 million dollars. I believe I was told I don't know if that's true or not. But the European Electrolex gave them five years to unlink the name Electrolex from their name. So now it's called Eris. And they sell other things. But Electrolex, if you walk into like a Best Buy or Home Depot, when you see Electrolex refrigerators, or you see Electrolex washing machines, that's not the company I worked for. However, long-winded story, I was talking to my friend who's still running one of those offices, and I said to him, you know, how, you know, things

45:57must be really different. We were talking about ring cameras, because we used to do a lot of direct selling, meaning knock on people's doors. I said, you know, I said, with all this stuff going on with ring cameras, that's got to be horrible. He's like, yeah, it's really tough with ring. And he kind of said, he wasn't hiring people anymore. And I said, why is that? And he said, because the laws have changed where now they have to hire people as employees, not as independent contractors. And for anybody that knows the difference, that's huge. So the only reason why I gave you that little long-winded story is because without the political tabbiness and pressure, that law should have never been approved, where they had to hire those people as employees, and not as independent contractors. And he's an Illinois. So I'm sure in California, that way, Illinois is probably that way, and some other, you know, democratic states are probably like that. I don't know. And then I said to him, actually, I shouldn't, I should correct myself.

46:58I said, is that the way it is all over the country? And he said, yes. And I'm not sure if I got it wrong or I didn't clarify. But the reality is, is that these direct sales companies that now had to hire people as employees, that really, really, really, really takes away from their ability to be able to expand their direct sales force. And puts a lot of pressure on them in different ways. So I just wanted to kind of mention that Scott, because we, meaning me and you, might be having more conversations about stuff that might be going on with, like, things like, with the state of Delaware, maybe we'll kind of educate Dave on some of the real concerns that he should be focused on with the political nature of direct sales and MNM. So we'll see. So some interesting developments. We'll see how it kind of shakes out. Well, congratulations, Peter. You got Dave to call you back. And then we're at that success. I've actually talked to him a couple of times, but he was really busy and he said he would call me back and it hasn't. I've also texted him and he said, I'll get back with you and he hasn't.

48:02So anyway, maybe we'll have him on the show in the future. That would be great. Now the interesting, interesting, just coincidentally, I also came across that the two guys, one from Florida, one from Texas, who are, in my understanding, is their major role is to sort of be the DSA at the state level, right? They're representing MLMs and direct selling companies, which, by the way, are fundamentally different. I won't go into the details of that right now. We've talked about it before. But they keep a closer eye on the state legislature and also, and it's right in there, their Facebook or whatever social media page guy was looking at. The guy from Texas is a long time, Mary K. Guy, employee, not a distributor. So he understands the industry quite well.

49:07They are very focused on the state level legislation as well as developing relationships with the state legislators and other regulators in the state and so forth. It's the whole shmoosing political thing, which is part of life. This was Texas. Yeah, because this guy Gordon is basically doing the same thing in Florida, and he said they were two other states doing the same thing, Texas and Utah. Yeah, of course Utah, you're probably talking to the counterpart. Yeah, Mecca. Yeah, Utah is kind of the Mecca of MLM, you know, so many MLMs are based there. And I think there was somebody from the Utah organization last summer when I was at the Delaware Senate Committee hearing that got up there and talked about how great MLM is. I think she was either ahead of or part of that organization

50:10in Utah, you know, basically representing it from a Utah perspective, which is probably the most powerful state in the union as far as MLM influence, right? Texas and Florida big because there's a lot of people living in both states, but they're not really known for being hot beds of MLMs, even though Texas does have several, but not nearly as many as Utah. But anyway, yeah, I came across both of those guys just by coincidence this past week and started looking into their backgrounds and you know, who they were and what their roles are basically. So I kind of see them as the state level BSA, you know, so that Dave doesn't have to do everything because, you know, to try to keep track of 50 different states, you know, or all the different things that are going on, you get spread pretty thin and you can't really have very good, you know, relationships with people when you spread that thin. So, you know, those guys are definitely,

51:16you know, fulfilling that role at a state level. And I'm sure there's some bleed over to the national too, you know, those both directions. But I also happen to come across and I think this, I think I came across this on the DSM direct selling news because I get springtime is almost here. And if you've been itching to redo every room in your home, Bob's discount furniture can help. When you shop at Bob's, you get well-worthy everyday low prices on fabulous furniture for every room, everything from stylish mid-century dining sets and top-rated Bobo-pedic mattresses with the best warranties in the business to pop up sleepers sectionals all for a fraction of what they cost elsewhere. So, stop in your shop online and get well-worthy pieces for less. Only it bobs. Hey, it's Bobo Wallace from 2311 Racing. You know what it feels like forever? Sitting on a plane waiting for take-off. Good thing I've got Jumbo Casino. With daily boost and social casino games on tap, this is a kind of fun that makes time fly. Why not

52:19charge it down time? Play now at jumbacacino.com. Let's Jumbo. Sponsored by Jumbo Casino, no purchase necessary. VGW GroupFord, we're prohibited by law 21 plus terms and conditions apply. Text from time to time is that the federal government is now sort of dialing back on the rules that the Biden administration was pushing to try to make more people employees and less people independent contractors. And so now the Trump administration is saying, no, we're going to go back to the previous way, which is where more people would basically be qualified to be independent contractors and less people would have to become employees. So that might impact the guy you were talking to so they won't have to become employees. And like you say, employees, there's a whole lot more overhead. You have to pay them at least

53:20in hourly wage, if not a salary. And typically if you're an employee, you get things like vacation and insurance and different things that they cost a lot of money. And you just can't do that with an MLM because, like frankly, most people that join MLMs have no idea what they're doing. And they don't do anything. And so you can't bring somebody on that is unable and unwilling to perform. And that's basically what happens with MLMs. You really have to stay with the independent contractor. Now I'm in favor, as we've talked about before, of changing some of the rules around how you actually add distributors and you need to be more judicious with that. I won't go into those details here either because it takes a while. But it does look like it's

54:20coming back in a more favorable direction to MLMs that they're not being forced to make distributors employees. And that was a lawsuit I think in California recently. I think it's still open. And I can't remember which MLM was an herbal life. I can't remember. But they were trying to define distributors as employees, which is nonsense as far as I'm concerned. It's so much more productive to not focus on employee versus independent contractor. And it's so much more productive to focus on illegal pyramid versus legitimate MLM with retail sales. So to me, that's just a category far and above more important, even though it does affect that guy you were mentioning. So it's interesting. In fact, there's a document that's out for comment right now.

55:26It just came out where the, let's see, it's not the FTC. I can't remember which, I can't remember which federal agency it is. But anyway, they're looking for comments on sort of going back to the old way. I can send you the link after the show. It's like 146 pages. I'm only about 20 or 30 pages into it. But basically, they're saying direction to Biden is trying to go in is nonsense. We're going to go back to the old way. We're not going to force every person in the country to be an employee that there's a real role for independent contractors. It's not just MLMs, by the way. It's things like seasonal crop pickers. People that pick our crops. For people, in fact, it was a lawsuit. Interestingly, I've never heard this before. There was a lawsuit against

56:27a, I think it was a coal mining company. And this is years ago. And so what they did was they kind of had a split decision within the same company. They said that the people who offload the coal cars were employees because they had a specific job and, you know, they didn't have much creativity and so forth and so on. And so they had to be classified as employees. Whereas people in the same company that were the truck drivers, the people that hauled the coal, I guess from the mine to wherever, that they were not employees because they bought their own trucks and they used those trucks for things other than delivering coal. And so they were independent contractors. So it was interesting. People within the same company, you know, the dividing line for some of them where you need to be an employee, the others you need to be an independent contractor.

57:31Really interesting. I had never come across that before. And you know, two or three years ago, we had an absolute expert on this show. This is where she does is this kind of employment type thing. And she was telling us about the history of all this too. And it's really fascinating how you know, there's all these different rules with, you know, what makes up an employee versus an independent contractor. And it's not, it's not cut and dry. You know, there's at least five or six major categories. And those are not the only ones. You could also make up your own categories. And they're not all, you know, what they would call determinative. In other words, you know, if this particular category means you're an employee, there might be another category that says you're not. And then it's very subjective on where you make that decision, right? Because because the decision is digital, right? It's either a one or a zero. It's either an employer or an independent contractor. Whereas the factors that go into that decision are extremely numerous,

58:38extremely subjective instead of objective. And so it's really fascinating how the whole process works to properly categorize people. So anyway, it's really interesting. You came across those things. And I just by coincidence did also this past week. And so, you know, we'll see what happens. But, you know, that's my understanding of those state level guys is they are basically state, DSA. And they're going to be able to develop those relationships with the politicians and the regulators and so forth to push their agendas, which, you know, I only have a problem with that's America. Now, I have a different perspective probably than most of them, you know, based on 10 and a half years of this show and what we focus on. But I have to say this, you know, that the DSA actually proposed a minimum 50% retail sales back

59:42in 2024, I believe it was. And the FTC kind of pooped it. You know, the FTC said, there is no minimum, which makes you scratch your head because you could say, okay, there is no minimum because they didn't expand on it. They just said there is no minimum. So, okay, you could say if there's no minimum, that means you could have zero retail sales. And that's okay because there's no minimum. Or you could also take the other extreme and say, what if you add a thousand times more of the products being sold to customers than the distributors. And, you know, if there's if there's no minimum, then a thousand times it's not even enough because there's, because there's no minimum amount of retail sales that's required. And so it makes no sense, is what I'm trying to say. The FTC, when they make these one-line statements without expanding on it, you have no idea what they're thinking is. But what's interesting, like we mentioned earlier,

1:00:44the settlements with theme and herbal life, both of those required retail sales levels. So, you know that the FTC is aware of it, but they still cause more confusion than they provide guidance, which is really a major function of any regulator, is to sort of translate the law into practical policy. And that's what the FTC does a very poor job of in my opinion. They cause more confusion than they're worth as far as I'm concerned. When it comes to NLM, it would be better if they didn't exist, because that way you can make the statement buyer be aware, right? You're not being protected by the FTC, you know, you need to be buyer be aware, you need to watch it yourself, because you can't count on the FTC to be doing their job. And that's what a lot of the pro-MLM people say is, whoa, gee, we've been around for years or

1:01:46decades, even. And we would have been shut down by the FTC if we were a bad operation. Well, not if they're incompetent. It's actually a false sense of security. So, anyway, I'll stop there, but it's fascinating. You came across that stuff, as I did, just by coincidence, this past week. And I'll try to back to you. Well, I'm a big fan of the channel of selling, because that's where I kind of grew up. I didn't start off that way, but that's kind of like where I was attracted to. And especially now, with all the job moving around that's happening with AI, or AI-driven job shifts and changes, I think a lot of people are going to have no other choice, except for to kind of figure out how to be in business for themselves. And even though you might not be owning your own business, if you're in direct sales and you're on your own direct sales crew, it's probably the closest next best thing to being involved in having your own business. So, you know, we can get into

1:02:50the series of challenges associated with calling it your own business, but it's pretty damn close, as long as you do things the right way. But there's a lot of other things we can talk about Scott, but I just want to let everybody know directselling.News and directsales.News are two new online publications, and it'll tie into the stuff that we do with MLM.News and anti-MLM.News and all that sort of stuff on the Building Fortune's radio platform as well. Springtime is almost here, and if you've been itching to redo every room in your home, Bob's discount furniture can help. When you shop at Bob's, you get wow-worthy everyday low prices on fabulous furniture for every room. Everything from stylish mid-century dining sets and top-rated Bobo-Pedic mattresses with the best warranties in the business to pop up sleepers sectionals all for a fraction of what they cost elsewhere. So, stop inner shop online and get wow-worthy pieces for less. Only at Bob's. How to have fun anytime anywhere. Step one, go to Chambacasino.com. Step two, collect your welcome bonus.

1:03:50Come to Poppa Welcome Bonus. Step three, play hundreds of casino-style games for free. That's a lot of games. All for free. Step four, unleash your excitement. Chambacasino has been delivering thrills for over a decade, so claim your free welcome bonus now and live the Chambalife. Visit chambacasino.com. So, there's a couple of other things that I ran across. One of them was on behind MLM and I just want to highlight this one article. We can talk about some other ones if you want, but there was one about Ray Hague-Din, Owing, or given back $150,000 in Ilgot and Games about the Trader's Domain Name thing. So, it's not something we've spoken about a lot recently or even a lot when it happened because it was not necessarily a traditional MLM company, but Ray Hague-Din just got nailed with Thor Agreed to that'll for 150,000. And what is most surprising for me is that it happened.

1:05:00Like, there's 82 or 83 people on this list that was leaked by Coffee Zilla. So, somewhere another Coffee Zilla got a list of the net winnings of these people and they posted to them and I didn't know if the receiver was going after anybody. Like, we know we went after the owners and the top, top, top guys and we know they went after Holt and Bugs, but I didn't know they were going after the littler guys and the receiver went after Ray Hague-Din and his wife and they're settling and I'll let you comment on this if you want to. Sky, we can still comment a little bit more about what the settlement looks like, but I was somewhat pleased to see that some of these people on this list might actually be getting some heartburn from the receiver. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, this was kind of surprised because we hadn't heard all these other names.

1:06:03I didn't know that Coffee Zilla had a list. I'll have to go look at that to see who else is on that list. You recall any names? Maybe we've that are well known in the industry. Eric Worry for sure. And not only Eric Worry, but his wife and his son. And I think his dad, though there's a couple of the Eric Worry family, couldn't happen a better guy and I don't know anything about his wife, but I can't, I don't know anything about her. I feel bad for her if she's married Eric. That's not a nice thing to say, but that's a different thing to say. His son is a good kid. Unfortunately, if his dad wasn't who he was, he probably would have never been involved in MLM, probably chose a better career path for him, but his son is a good kid. Taylor, I think his first name is. I think I was on a radio show with him with Thompson Alt, but then other people like Jesse Lee Ward, as she's now dead, but people

1:07:04like Jack Fallon, who's an MLM company owner, and lots of other ones as well. A lot of company owners, Brian Carothers, big distributor with legal shield. Brian, what are you doing? What didn't air Mr. Ethical with a legal shield when you're telling every news, fooling around with Trader's domain, holy cow Brian, a little bit different from the shit that you post. There's a couple of other people in there as well that you may or may not recognize, but there was 80 somewhat different names that were there. Many of them were companies or variations of the same people, but probably like 50 unique people in the whole thing. Mike Sims, who is I think in jail? I think. I don't remember, but they go in after him, and a few other people as well. But it was kind of interesting. It's an interesting list, Scott. So if you go to the behind MLM, we'll give them credit for posting this. If you go to behind MLM, and then you kind of look in there, you'll see it says there's a list of people released from coffeezilla, like leaked from coffeezilla in 2024. And when you click on that,

1:08:09you'll be able to see it. Great. Yeah, just a quick comment on the very hinting thing. Apparently, the receiver wanted to get about $240,000 originally, and then they talked them down to $150,000. So they got a pretty good chunk of their butt. Maybe not the whole thing, but that's what negotiations are all about, right? Well, yeah, that'll be a little bit more than that. I guess Ray couldn't cut a check for it. So if you read it, I know you're just looking at that article now. But if you, Ray didn't, you know, wasn't able to use just kind of write that check. And anybody who's ever dealt with Ray Higden before, and rank makers, you've heard Julie Anderson talk about him and all that sort of stuff, you would think that somebody like Ray Higden could just swipe a check or you know, cut it, put it on debit card, Ray. But he's got payments that he's making $25,000 a month starting next month. So he's probably a little stressed out. So if you're

1:09:10if you're in a coaching program with Ray and he's kind of like really hard-closing yet, it might be because Mr. Wonderful might be having some challenges. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it was a cash flow thing that he was trying to, you know, to control. I don't know how much money he's got. You know, maybe he could have cut a check and just, you know, wanted to negotiate, paying it out over a period of time, who knows. But $150,000 is no small change and it'll certainly get other people's attention as well. That's what's good about these things when they become public is, you know, people sit up and particularly the behind MLM website, when when you go on that website, you can do a search for, you know, a person's name or a company name and it'll pop up. So, you know, if you want to know some some history of somebody or some company, you can go on behind MLM.com and just do that in their little search box and

1:10:15it'll pull up everything. Every story that mentions them and you can get an idea of, you know, maybe they have a long track record. It is not so good and you'll find out some details that you're, you won't hear from the, from the individuals or the individual company and you'll be able to see that, you know, check it out for yourself. So, all of that's good, in my opinion, as far as, you know, all that stuff that's going on. So, was there any interesting things? Yeah, no, but the thing I want to highlight is, you know, Ray Higden was number 72, I think, on that list. And they actually went after his wife, I think, and maybe he put it under his wife's name for whatever reason. But he's got him and his wife out to cut the check. But just the idea that there was a receiver going after people that were net winners on that list was somewhat very interesting because that means, if they went after number 72, and if you look at where the other people are, there are some people up on that list, like the Eric War is of the world, who had the millions or tens of millions of dollars.

1:11:21And I'm just kind of curious, I wonder if the receiver's going after people like that. So, we'll see. It'll be interesting to see how this whole thing shaked out. But yeah, so when you say 72, it was, it was, it was sequenced by the dollar number. Yeah, yeah, so there was 71 people above Ray Higden, okay. Yeah, what, I guess, I guess he's a real rank maker, huh? Yeah, yeah, at 72. This is one, this is one you didn't want to really be up on top of. But you know, it went from, it went from a couple hundred thousand, you know, to, I think, some of Eric War's children made like, you know, less than 200,000. I want to say, made less than 200,000. That's what the receivers claiming. There might be some stories behind that, I don't know. But then you got it, you got some pretty significant people in there. Some company owners, some leading distributors, Stormy Wellington, if you're unfamiliar with Stormy Wellington, total life changes, you know. And then you got people like some other ones, Jack Fallon,

1:12:26who's a company owner, there's several company owners, several company owners in there. And they were in the millions of dollars. So that probably means they fleeced their flock. So they probably like, Holton Bugs went to people from Ibumerang and got them to get involved in this. Though he made a ton of money, I think he gave some to his wife for his mom as well and put them in different positions. But also the idea that they fleeced their flock in their regular deal to get them into Trader's Domain. And now these things are happening. So it was really kind of interesting just to see the net winners list and to see if their receiver is going to go after them. And which means there's probably more that'll be figured out or settled that we may not see right away. But there's probably some sweat and going on or some nervousness. And unfortunately, and we don't know all the details, there was one guy. I think his name was Peter Hirsch.

1:13:28He was number 33 on the list. He had a couple of million dollars that was, I guess the guy was going after and he killed himself. I don't know if he killed himself. People killed themselves for lots of reasons. I mean, not about anything to do with this. But if it did, there's considerable pressure on people that are now under, you know, having to pay a significant amount of money back. Yeah. This was an FTC thing, right? Or CFTC. Yeah. They're basically selling investments. You know, and Trader's Domain was basically, you know, you put in this amount of money, you're going to get a certain amount of money when you recruit some people. And like a, almost like a stock. That's where they got them to the investment contract side and the lifestyle claims and things like that. But they really got them for basically, if I'm not mistaken, telling illegal securities. So, you know, basically like

1:14:29investments without being licensed. So they got, I think, I don't know if they got the company owner or they even know who that is. But the reality is a lot of people tumbled and fell. And Coffee Silla so much was on top of it as well for those people unfamiliar with Coffee Silla. He's somebody who's like an investigative journalist kind of reporter. And he's got, you know, skeptical as best as far as some of the things that he's done. And I know Marco talks to him for a probably legal advice. Because Coffee Silla was being sued by, I guess it's Logan Paul. And for a whole bunch of other things relative to Crypto Zoo. Spring times the perfect time to turn the page and refresh your home style. The only problem, it can be expensive. Luckily, there's a better way to shop well-worthy pieces for less. At Bob's Discount Furniture. Bob's negotiates with manufacturers to get you the best everyday low prices, giving the shopping power back to you. The power to get more style, comfort and quality for less on amazing pieces. Like stylish mid-century dining sets made for hosting those

1:15:30big spring branches, pop up sleeper sectionals with all the bells and whistles so you can turn any room into a guest room and next level Bobo-Pedic mattresses so you can get a great night's rest after you've finished redecorating every room. So when you're ready to spring into new style, stop into your nearest store or shop online and see how you can get well-worthy style for less with Bob's Discount Furniture. It is Ryan C. Crest here. There was a recent social media trend which consisted of flying on a plane with no music, no movies, no entertainment. But a better trend would be going to chumbacacino.com. It's like having a mini social casino in your pocket. Chumbacacino has over a hundred online casino style games all absolutely free. It's the most fun you can have online and on a plane. So grab your free welcome bonus now at chumbacacino.com. Sponsored by Chumbacacino. No purchase necessary VGW group void for prohibited by law on 21 plus terms and conditions apply. That's an interesting thing. But Marco was talking to him recently probably about like how am I going to be able to keep anything that I got going on with YouTube

1:16:33or whatever. But it's kind of an interesting thing. But coffee is always somebody to follow. And you got it just like behind MLM. You follow him and you understand where he's coming from. So you praise the things that he does well and you kind of either criticize or watch out for the things that he does poorly. And that's coffeezilla. But one of the things he did well is he leaked out. He got this list and he leaked it out. Yeah, for sure. And his major presence is on YouTube. Is that what you found that list was on his YouTube channel? No, I found that list from behind MLM referencing it. And he probably did a video on that. Coffeezilla probably did a video on that as well. So coffeezilla for those people are familiar. He's he used to brand himself but wearing like suspenders. I don't think he does that any more because I think he's got the shit kicked out of him. He probably needs to be able to drop his pants

1:17:35faster. But the reality was is that he wound up uncovering scammers and he's done a really good job on some people. And one of them I think it was Logan Paul was doing something with NFTs the non-fungible tokens. And with this crypto zoo think I what I think it was kind of some bizarre thing. But he got his investors. I'm sorry crypto I'm sorry Logan Paul got his fans basically get all hot and bothered about being in a business with him. And they did this crypto zoo thing that completely fell apart and coffeezilla was on top of it and calling Logan Paul out. And then Logan Paul said he was going to refund people and he wound up doing some half-assed I'll just say allegedly bullshit refund and never really did it. And coffeezilla called him out on

1:18:39that as well. And then Logan Paul says I'm going to sue this fucker into oblivion basically. That's what he did. So now he's suing coffeezilla into oblivion. I don't know how much money coffeezilla has but he's got a lot of you've got a lot of stuff going on on YouTube. So he's probably got a significant bankroll not enough to be able to handle the onslaught from a coffee zilla lawsuit. But he's fighting back and doing a decent job and Logan Paul is a billionaire many times over I think. Though he's got plenty of money but he's getting this kind of reputation tarnished a little bit a little bit. But he's going back and forth. There's a YouTube channel call they think it's legal bites. The legal BYTES that talks about these types of things and legal ego has jumped in and legal ego is somebody who I don't like anymore. I thought he was pretty good but then I followed some of the stuff that he does and he's just whatever he is. He's on coffeezilla side as well. But the reality is coffeezilla has got a fight and chance to be able to

1:19:44either get this thing dismissed and if he does he's going to win his legal fees back I'm sure or kind of be putting the world apart even further. And Logan Paul I think is willing to go for the ride legally. So it's very interesting it's kind of fascinating the law fair and then Marco our Marco Mukubair guy calls coffeezilla from time to time to probably you know talk about stuff including probably get some legal advice. Now if you want to hear the kind of relationship the coffeezilla doesn't know that he has with Marco if you go to one of the websites I'm not really sure which one it is always Marco dot l l or Marco Mukubair dot com or Marco Mukubair dot gay forget which one it was but you'll be able to hear Marco calling me presenting himself as coffeezilla though I don't think coffeezilla would probably appreciate that but it's up there on the website you'll be able to pick it up if you go to any one of those three check out all three

1:20:48anyway but if you go there you I think it's on the always Marco dot l o l one although it might be on other so you'll find that voice mail where Marco was impersonating coffeezilla. Yeah those those websites are if nothing else they're entertaining absolutely no doubt no yep and if you go to the for those people listening in if you go to buildingforgerideo.com click on the deep dives though on the deep dive link it's up on the top or on the side depending on what you're looking at on the phone or computer but find the one on deep dives and if you scroll down you'll see some on Hana Alonzo when the young living thing and then you'll also see one on Marco and some of his legal challenges they did a deep dive review it's got me and you were mentioning it it's amazing how that happened but it's kind of amazing and fascinating and we've we've actually played it on this radio show the Marco Mukubair deep dive review as well and then

1:21:51Scott we I don't know if we mentioned it last then I know I'm rambling a little bit but talk about just um stuff as far as anti-M11ers um for those people that may not have seen it you could see the hostage slash retraction slash apology video short video from Hana Alonzo relative to young living I think it's got it's like it's probably one of the shortest videos ever anybody's ever done it's like certainly less than a minute I think but she yeah I forget everything that she said I think it's 31 seconds yeah it's shorter than the ones you did for which McCall at Malalooka yeah in fact I you sent me a link and I watched it and it it looks like it was made in several segments because it kind of jumps from one sentence to the next but it's about four or five sentences and it just kind of jumps you know

1:22:52from one thing to another um but yeah it reminds me of the Malalooka uh me a culpa um yeah at the end she said I agree before saying anything about uh you know the company I'll check with them first oh what an yeah what an investigative idea that would have been smaller I'm gonna talk about you know it's crazy I'm gonna talk about some maybe you should comment first you know because I'm an investigative reporter kind of a person but right there you go is the anti-MLN group you know you know you know so I guess I was it because we're sort of in the end of our time here which did you have another thing that you wanted to talk about no um I just uh take a look at um for those people listening and go to teena.org b-i-n-a truth and advertising.org um Jane Olin is getting you know hammered again

1:23:56he's kind of like the Kevin Trudeau lately of the MLM world where like with Kevin Trudeau Kevin got thrown in jail for you know for doing stuff with credit cards early on and they threw him in jail again or we're threatening to throw him in jail they find him for his illegal claims and then they said you know you can't do like these things and then he said well I'll write a book like you can't take that away from him they got him there too and then he said I'm gonna do whatever and they finally put him in jail because of contempt of court kind of like they said with Kevin they said listen we know you keep violating everything we got to put you in jail and uh we we know you're good at hiding the money you certainly tell people are good you know it is to be able to hide the money and we know you got it somewhere you're gonna we can't find it so we're just gonna put you in jail anyway and he's out now just you know for those people listening and Kevin Trudeau is out but Jane Olin is following a similar path of he can't do MLM anymore Jay he worked with big smart and that was a disaster I don't know

1:24:59anything about the big smart thing hearing Jay's version of it he was just a distributor and thought the paperwork because he couldn't afford to get lawyers to do a lot of the things so he probably signed the wrong paperwork then they debate the basic paperwork said you can't do MLM or you can't do anything bad in MLM and then he did with success by health and I'm not so sure you know that's a love-hate relationship you know I was kind of familiar with that because I saw that thing start from the very beginning but I understand the reasons why they got him and they went through the appeals process and he lost and I don't just because he lost doesn't mean I agree with it but the reality was as they told them you can't do any MLM anymore now he's selling something through scriptures so he's moved closer to God and I'm like oh man like just you know I get it I get you you got to you know you're trying to survive in this profession and you're really good at certain things but gosh so Tina.org just basically nailed them and uh what like

1:26:06we'll see what happens but he's God it's not looking good Scott like when the FTC goes after he and they got a folder basically held open for you like they're not even shutting the file cabinets wrong saying no one like I'm sure he burps the wrong way or when person complains the wrong way who knows what's going to happen with Jay so uh very interesting charismatic guy super smart just if I Kevin Trudeau just yeah you got to stay on the right side of the law and I'm not sure if that's what's going to happen so we'll see I wish him luck and I wish and I think he was associated with him caution yeah and I think the FTC like those easy targets right because he's a repeat offender he's really easy to go after yeah so one of those things you know I wish the FTC would be more productive by going after what we talk about in the show every week but there you go you know they like to uh just like any other political

1:27:06organization they like to chalk up the victories you know they like to progress their careers by showing hey we won this thing and and whether it's the most significant thing doesn't really matter spring times the perfect time to turn the page and refresh your home style the only problem it can be expensive luckily there's a better way to shop well worthy pieces for less at Bob's discount furniture Bob's negotiates with manufacturers to get you the best everyday low prices giving the shopping power back to you the power to get more style comfort and quality for less on amazing pieces like stylish mid-century dining sets made for hosting those big spring branches pop up sleeper sectionals with all the bells and whistles so you can turn any room into a guest room and next level Bobo-Pedic mattresses so you can get a great night's rest after you finish redecorating every room so when you're ready to spring into new style stop into your nearest store or shop online and see how you can get well worthy style for less with Bob's discount furniture hello it is Ryan and we could all use an extra bright spot in our day couldn't we

1:28:09just to make up for things like sitting in traffic doing the dishes counting your steps you know all the mundane stuff that is why I'm such a big fan of Chamba Casino Chamba Casino has all your favorite social casino style games that you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses so sign up now at chamba casino dot com that's chamba casino dot com no purchase necessary vg w group void for prohibited by law 21 plus terms and conditions apply a win as a win you know you kind of get your ticket punched in the in your bureaucracy and you get promoted and so forth or you leave the FTC and you go into private practice somewhere and you have a good track record look look becoming times I nailed Jay Nolan for example and and see you up and so yeah it's it's a racket there's no doubt but that's you know that's the world we live in so and I know I know a lot about that stuff and I'll share with you and this is just like a little just comment if Jay Nolan showed

1:29:11up at your house or as your neighbor your best friend or some of you worked with he will get performance from people better than almost everybody like he's really good at being a coach smart innovative good at a lot of things good man kind heart he's a good guy it's just when the money is there and the money just messes like people like him up so it's like whether he overcharges for the training or puts pressure on people to buy things and you know you might say yeah but I know but you change your people's lives and there's a lot of people to work with Jay that a lot of the work in with Jay and I'm telling you for most of the people listening in if he was your coach and had nothing to do with money if he was like your brother your best friend your neighbor and he was helping you do whatever I'm telling you he is good I mean good and it just sucks that he's in this situation where he's making his living this way

1:30:18and he's got such a bullseye on him and he crosses the line relative to maybe being a little I'm going to call it aggressive I'm not going to say illegal I'm just going to say aggressive like he'll push like he's the guy that you like if you're on a work bench and you're going for one more you know like he'll push you to get that friggin one more now I don't know if he'll be there to you know get it if you're trying to do that push up or that you know work at you know work bench you know you're trying to get that one more I'm not sure if he'll be there to be able to stop it from you know crashing down on your not but damn he'll get you if there's anybody can get you do that one more it's guys like him so anyway my love paint kind of relationship with saying like darn I wish you would just do it the right way same thing with guys like Kevin Trudeau like Kevin was good Kevin was really good but Kevin's also like one of those guys that just can't do it the right way so anyway so back to you Scott yeah now I agree with all that yep

1:31:20so I was looking at a couple other articles on behind in LM2 there's one year that kind of peak my interest the headline is Matt Gachi I don't know how he pronounces his name Matt Gachi plea breakdown leads to trial and so I'm not that up on you know who this guy is and what was going on it was an MLM called BitClub Network but what really caught my attention was that he rejected a plea deal in 2020 and he's been negotiating ever since so for the past five or six years this is just an illustration of what we said many times how long this takes sometimes to get through the system that he was actually negotiating for half a decade you know with the government in this case it was the Department of Justice the OJ and I just to me it doesn't

1:32:21make any sense for any government agency to negotiate with somebody for half a decade you know it's like with the Clintons when they finally testified this past week about Epstein they were negotiating for six or seven months you know with that House of Representatives trying to you know negotiate is this going to be public or private where's it going to be and how long is it going to be and you know other questions going to be confined to this area all those kinds of things you know it should have been like five or six minutes not five or six months in this case you know five or six years you know you have to sit down all those delays yeah we had the COVID-19 so you get all that stuff in the way as well so that's how people are kind of extended I'm sure yeah that's part of the five or six years for sure but even with COVID I mean yeah on the phone it was zoom yeah you know put the pressure on these people don't

1:33:26don't let them negotiate for a half a decade that's ridiculous but that's the world we live in again and on there's another one here it was interesting and the headline is joby weeks denied permission to withdraw guilty plea now this is dated February 16th 2026 is for reference for people maybe listening later and this guy coincidentally was also in this bit club network thing but apparently he pled guilty and now he's trying to withdraw it and basically the judge said you don't provide any information that would make me want to change my mind you know you didn't really provide any information on why you're not guilty so I'm not going to allow you to withdraw your guilty plea so so he's headed for trial you know maybe it'll settle before he goes to trial but that's you know one of those things that's interesting to me how they try to you know pull the legal

1:34:32system around you know they play guilty and not guilty and guilty and it's just crazy now it goes back and forth and I understand you know why the judges have to be careful and make sure that they give them time to you know to make their pleas and so forth because if you rush it through then you know maybe you cheated somebody out of a right they had you know some kind of a due process type thing and and then when it gets appealed and it gets overturned and I think it's thrown out and then you're you know letting a guilty person go free I get I get both sides but this is just an interesting example I guess of somebody who tried to play the legal system and lost basically you know the judge said no you didn't bring you didn't bring any new information so you're gonna you're gonna stay with your your guilty plea and well I guess actually

1:35:35since it was a guilty plea there won't even be any trial there'll just be a sentence so that's kind of where this guy is yeah and this has been won on since it looks like November of 2020 so again the half of that date for it to come it's interesting it's interesting because you know I've unfortunately I've had some experience with this topic of pleading guilty not me but for people that I've known and I remember specifically one case with Zech rewards where somebody had pled guilty to something that she never did and the the the basic reason why is because they basically said listen if you go to trial the things that we can charge you for can put you in jail for anywhere from 20 to 40 years and you got young kids and they'll

1:36:36ever see you again if you are found guilty in this trial and they said but if you plead guilty to do these two things you'll get a lesser sentence so there's a lot of there's a lot of things that people may or may not know about people pleading guilty but here's one thing I do know when you're standing in front of that judge and you're pleading guilty he asks you a million questions are you kind of a sound mind you know are you under any during you know stress have you been taken any drugs have you been promised anything that we don't know about I mean they go through a whole bunch of questions to basically say do you really know what you're doing because if you say that you want to plead guilty you're screwed you're taking all of your rights away so that this joby weak guy who I don't know pled guilty and now that he wants it reversed that's a really strong uphill battle like that's going to be he's got a really fight

1:37:42and the only way he could possibly be is maybe just maybe just maybe if he got bad advice or is going to claim he didn't get the right advice from his attorney that may be the only reason that he might be able to get out of it and I doubt it and Scott not to throw any shit out joby but I think he was also the guy that was arrested for child something or another whether it was something with a minor or whatever but I think if you look up his name and you look around a little bit I think you'll see that he might not be personally a good guy like I think he might have had something to do with kids and in that a nice way and on a sexual basis I believe don't I don't know if the case or not well I think you're right that's I think I remember something like that too but anyway people can go on behind mlm.com and and type in his name joby weeks and find out for themselves so there you go so I guess we're pretty much done here Peter

1:38:46this has been a great show covered a lot of territory and and interesting how our paths unknowingly overlap this week on our research so very interesting and it's good to see that the direction that they overlap as far as like what the states are trying to do to make the world a better place is a good thing so I think that might be good for the industry and good for people so it'll hopefully crowd up more of the bad guys and some of the good guys will have a fighting chance and for everybody that's ever paying attention to like what jack dorsi is doing most recently jack dorsi is the guy who used to own you know twitter now he owns his own company kick and ask by the way just kick and ask jack dorsi just laid off 4100 employees and like almost 10,000 you laid off 41 done what percent of his employee force and lots of companies are doing the same thing with that so there's a lot of people that are being laid off and you know where

1:39:48they're going to go well maybe not all of them going to find jobs maybe some of them will get involved in direct sales and maybe some of them will choose mlm and they need the world to be a better place so we'll see anyway great great radio show Scott good stuff yeah yeah I'll let you close it up why don't you give your website out one more time okay yeah um if you go to facebook.com slash stop the Emily Toolscam on one word stop the Emily Toolscam that's where you'll find a bunch of stuff there's links to various websites videos and so forth my youtube channel going to the show step into the world of power loyalty and luck i'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse with family conoles and spins mean everything now you want to get mixed up in the family business introducing the godfather at champa casino.com test your luck in the shadowy world of the godfather slot someday i will call upon you to do a service for me play the godfather

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