Standing Firm in Unstable Times (A)

0:00death is reality and God's people die and Satan's people die. But that's all within God's purpose and plan that he allows those things. He gives evil, even Satan is his servant. He gives evil its space within his confinement. Welcome to Grace to You, the Bible Teaching Ministry of John MacArthur. I'm your host, Phil Johnson. Now, if you're old enough, you no doubt remember where you were 25 years ago when you heard the news that a plane crashed into the World Trade Center. Like many people, you may have watched the horror unfold throughout the day. As another plane struck the second tower and a third hit the Pentagon and then a fourth crashed into a Pennsylvania field. And perhaps you wrestled then and still struggle now with questions like, how could God let

1:00something so terrible happen? Well, today you'll hear an interview that I had with John MacArthur the day, not long after the terrorist attacks. In it, we discussed why God allows tragedies like 9-11 in our lives and what you can learn from them. The interview is titled Standing Firm in Unstable Times. Before we start the discussion though, some years ago we asked John what his thoughts were during those first sobering hours after the attacks. Here's what he said. Well my initial thought on September 11 was sitting in front of a television watching airplanes flying to the Twin Towers like everybody else and just being absolutely shocked. The whole thing was incredulous and then of course everything unfolds. And it wasn't long after that that I was contacted by the Larry King television program CNN and they asked me if I would come down and have an interview with Larry because he had

2:03some questions about what this meant and what was the significance of it. That began a long relationship of interacting with Larry King over many, many other issues. And people were asking questions. Larry was asking questions about God's sovereignty and his love and the nature of evil and how Christians should respond to Islam and terrorism and how we live with anxiety and fear. And Larry's big question, what happened to the babies that were killed in the Holocaust of 9-11? So as a result of that, we did a little interview called Standing Firm in Unstable Times. I tried to react to that. I remember it happened on a Tuesday, I think, and I needed to preach on Sunday some kind of a message on that whole thing. I put all that together and Phil and I decided to take a more in depth look at the issues

3:04that September 11 raised. So you're going to hear that conversation today and tomorrow on Grace to You. Stay tuned as we go back to the aftermath of one of history's greatest acts of evil and see how God's word answers the most challenging questions. Friend this interview today and tomorrow will not only help you make sense of the 9-11 tragedy that unfolded 25 years ago, it will also equip you to handle any hardship you may be facing today. So here now is John to kick off this special interview called Standing Firm in Unstable Times. No matter where you were or what you happen to be doing on September 11, 2001, there's no question that things haven't been the same since. The terrorists attacks brought sudden sweeping changes to our nation, in fact, to our entire world, and in some ways to all of our lives. And at home families, I guess for the first time ever, in some cases, are discussing the what-if scenarios that come with rising unemployment and even a war threatening our own

4:09shores. No question, things are very different. It seems people everywhere are doing what just a day before this event was politically incorrect. And that's talking about God and faith and the future and life and death. It's those kind of questions that I have in mind as we bring this special grace to you interview with you, we're calling it again Standing Firm in Unstable Times. And in the interview, I'm going to try to expand on some of the questions that I'm hearing most often these days. Questions about evil and God's power or lack of power to stop it. Questions about truth and questions about the Bible's claim to being the only source of truth and the only way of eternal salvation is found therein. Also going to address bluntly some of the serious theological errors that sadly are getting a lot of airtime. And I'm hoping that will help you stand firm for God's truth. Larry King's first question and the title of that broadcast was, where was God?

5:14He posed that question to a well-known rabbi this way. These were his words. He said, if God is omnipotent, he could have prevented this. Could he not? And the rabbi, you may remember, answered, no. He said even God couldn't have prevented this. And I wonder what your thoughts on that, Arjun? Well, I have to tell you Phil, it was very frustrating because I had all kinds of thoughts and ways that I wanted to answer that. I never got the opportunity to give a complete answer, so I just tried to proclaim the truth. But in answer to the question, where was God? I immediately went to Isaiah in my mind. I mean, I'm so biblically arranged mentally that that's where I went. And I went right to the fifth chapter of Isaiah. And there I was in the fifth chapter of Isaiah. And Isaiah receives this revelation from God that it pronounces a series of curses on Israel, on Judah, actually, and Jerusalem. And the prophet receives these messages that God has found Israel to be a fruitless vine

6:21that in all his provisions and all his goodness and grace and mercy to them and blessing should have produced good grapes. But instead, there are any grapes. There's just sour berries, which is symbolic of the fact that they're in idolatry and iniquity and sin. And God says, I'm going to come down and I'm going to rip up my vineyard, Israel. I'm going to take away its protection. I'm going to trample it down. I'm not going to rain on it. And this is a huge curse pronounced by God on Israel. And then that sequence of woes that follows the opening verses delineates the sin, sins of materialism, sins of drunken sins of corrupt leadership, sins of perverted morality. And he goes down, woe, woe, woe, woe, through all of these things. And then he pronounces at the end of the chapter this horrifying prophecy that the

7:27enemies of Israel are going to come in a massive force and just wipe them out, just total destruction. And it's a frightening passage. I mean, it would be worse than knowing your twin towers are going to be attacked by some Arab terrorists. I mean, it was total wiping out of Jerusalem and the whole of the of the Southern kingdom. And Isaiah immediately is seen going to the temple and he goes to the temple and he wants to check in with God because he wants to find out where is God. Where is God? This is this can't be. This is the covenant people. This is God's own chosen people. This is the seat of Abraham. And he goes to the temple and I think the most startling thing occurs in the opening of the chapter. And that was the final straw because Isaiah ran 52 years. And Isaiah was the symbol of God's blessing, the symbol of God's protection.

8:33And he died and God killed him. He stepped over the line from the kingly roll to the priestly roll and God struck him dead. And that was the final blow. In the ear king, Isaiah died when all trauma from God was falling on Israel. He said, I saw the Lord and he was high and lifted up. And it's just it's just shocking. He wasn't in the rubble as the LA Times guy said. He was right on the same throne he had been on all the time. He hadn't abdicated. He hadn't lost his sovereign purpose. He hadn't diminished in his glory, high and lifted up in his train fills the temple. And holy, holy, holy. And you see God in all his full sovereign, majestic glory and everything that is happening is happening within the framework of his perfect purpose. And his purpose happened to be for judgment on Judah. And I will say this, I don't know what the purpose of God was, quote, for America.

9:35But I do know what the purpose of God is when something like that happens, it is for judgment on some because they perish. And God has every right to bring that judgment on the ungodly who have rejected him. It is for those who believe the blessing of all blessings, the Christians who died in those events. For them it was an entrance into glory. God was in control of all of that. God is in control of judgment. God is in control of blessing for his people. And that fits within the righteous pattern of God as he expresses his purpose and his will. Amos the prophet said something very, very interesting. He said, is there a calamity in the city that I have not done? It's God. It isn't that God is in the evil of the terrorists. But it is within the framework of God's purpose of judgment that that came to pass.

10:36And in fact, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that God's judgment can also be his blessing, that people who die in a disaster like this, some of them are righteous, some of them are evil. We can't tell from looking externally whether in any given instance, this was an act of judgment or an act of blessing, it could be either one. Yes. And that's why I've said that God's providence does not discriminate. Providence doesn't discriminate. A flood doesn't discriminate. A plane crash doesn't discriminate. A war doesn't discriminate. A sinking ship like the Titanic doesn't discriminate. Train wreck doesn't discriminate. You remember the famous sermon by Spurgeon in which he was trying to explain to his people that the train wreck occurred. And there were the mangled cars and mangled people. And it oversimplifies to say, this is God's judgment on the worst people. They're not the worst people. Death is reality. And God's people die and Satan's people die.

11:39But that's all within God's purpose and plan that he allows those things. He gives evil, even Satan is his servant. He gives evil its space within his confinements. And then uses it for his glory. Yeah. Because I said, what happened in that tower was severe. Obviously, it was the ultimate severity for the ungodly, but the ungodly perish all the time. They perish all the time. But it was there a severe mercy. I mean, look at the results of it. Everybody talking about God, people going back to churches, people, you know, it's not a good day to be a comedian. A frivolity and the trivial and the shallow and the cheap and the taudry has lost its place in the public discourse. That's right. And is that good? Yes. Well, you know, evangelists can create that. You can't hype that up.

12:39It takes something like this, which I call a severe mercy. It may be wrath on the ungodly who die at the same time blessing on the godly who die, but for the rest who live, it is a severe mercy because it is a wake-up call. And that, you know, we all know this, that God would have every right to take our lives immediately. All of us. I mean, the whole world of sinners, but we live and we enjoy what theologians have called common grace and the sun shines and the rain falls on the just and the unjust and we enjoy life when we have no right to life. And then when somebody dies, we say, what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? We all deserve, but we're all living on borrowed time. We're all living under grace, really. And when these kinds of events happen, I think they shake people to the core. I mean, Phil, just think about it. One day before September 11th, on September 10th, God's name wasn't in the public discourse.

13:40I mean, you didn't speak about God unless you were being sworn in somewhere in a courtroom or unless you were overstepping your bounds. Now everyone is reaching out for the sky hook. And as I said in the introduction, I mean, we can all assume that they don't know the God they're crying out to and they may not be crying out on his terms, but on their own terms. But that ought to be evidence enough that this is a severe mercy. One of the interesting thing about the Larry King interview is that he asked you, what did you think would happen? He said to a two year old baby at the bottom of the World Trade Center, I happen to know that you were planning to preach on the question of what happens to infants who die. So you'd been studying that issue anyway. Take a little time and give us an answer about what happens to infants who die. Yeah, that was one of those things that just came out of nowhere. I mean, I don't... That's obviously a question on people's minds. And it was on his mind. I didn't know it was coming. He just looked at me and said, what about a two year old baby that's at the bottom of

14:42the trade towers? I said instant heaven. That's what I said. I said it twice because then he responded by saying, didn't sin. And I said instant heaven. I didn't necessarily agree that they didn't sin, but I said instant heaven because that was the right answer. But I remember being on a panel with the four pastors and the question was asked from the audience in a big conference, what about babies that die and three of them didn't know. And I thought, how can that be? How can you not know? This is a massive issue here. I mean, it is conceivable that more little ones have died than have reached adulthood in the history of the world. Wow. I mean, that's conceivable, isn't it? I mean, mortality rates in the past. I mean, you think about... Look at the puritons and the reformers and how many kids they had that died and go back a few centuries before that and people were having babies die all over the place. And even now in some parts of the world. In some parts of the world, it's possible that half the babies conceived die even in third

15:42world areas today. So you're talking about millions and billions of souls that are souls. Psalm 139, God, you know, wove me in my mother's womb and knew me before I ever set a word and these are real souls. We need to have an answer to that. And I believe the right way to understand that is that God, in grace, gathers them into his eternal glory. He saves them. And there are a number of reasons why I believe that. I believe it because Jesus said, permit the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for such as the kingdom of heaven, Mark 10. I believe it because of a wonderful verse in Matthew 1814, where Jesus said, the Father would never let one of his little ones perish. I believe it because of David's confidence in the death of his baby son when he said in 2 Samuel, he cannot come to me, but I shall go to him.

16:46Other number of other passages. I believe in the scripture. Job said when he was really into spare, he was really at the end of his rope. I mean, he lost everything and he said it would have been better for me if I had been still born because then I wouldn't have this misery. I would be at rest. And here was the confidence of Job that the little one who is still born escapes pain and suffering and goes into rest. There are a lot of scriptures like that. And I also believe that the sovereign salvation of infants is the most magnificent analogy to how God saves adults because in saving an infant it's all of grace because an infant can't believe. He can't do anything. God saves them purely by his grace and we know that he by nature is a savior. He saves them by grace. That's a perfect analogy of how he saves us, even as adults.

17:49We can't do anything to contribute to our salvation either. And purely out of his sovereign grace he saves us. So I believe that there are a lot of other reasons, but I believe that when I said instant heaven to Larry King, I had a lot behind what I said. Another interesting thought about that, you know, reading the Bible that heaven is a place where there will be people from every tongue and tribe and people in nation. If you think about it, not every tongue and tribe and people in nation have necessarily heard the gospel. But if the Lord is rescuing the little ones from all those places then they'll be representatives of every tongue and tribe and people in nation. I know in the midst of all this uncertainty and with all of the threat of war, US attacks, retaliation are now underway. And there's almost a guarantee the news media are telling us that there will be further retaliation from the terrorists. In the midst of all of this, fear isn't very far away even from Christians.

18:53It's hard to avoid anxiety. Let me ask you first of all, is fear always a sin? I wouldn't want to say that. I think when fear spills over into distrusting God, you know, when it becomes a settled fear that goes against the grain of divine revelation about God's promises to care for his own, then it's a sin. But there is such a thing as a responsible fear that makes me watchful, careful, protective of myself, my family, people around me. I think there's a whole some sense of self protection, a reasonable fear that keeps me from putting myself in dangerous places and dangerous positions. You could almost say that fearlessness could be a sin because fearlessness could step over a line into presumption. You know, the old story of, do I trust God so much for my life that I'm going to lie down in the freeway?

19:54That's presumption. That's overstepping the bounds of trust and you've now entered into presumption. On the other side, you can, you can overstep a reasonable sense of fear, a reasonable common sense approach to life that takes care about where you go and what you do and how you protect yourself and those around you. You can step over that line into a settled distrust in the divine purpose and the divine care of God, which is pledged and promised to a believer. Now, I know you've written a whole book on this subject, Anxiety Attacked. Yeah. But let me just ask you to give us a brief summary of the advice you would give to someone who's struggling with anxiety. Well, you know, what I do in that book is in the back, there's a whole bunch of Psalms and what I've told people through the years is just start reading the Psalms because so many of the Psalms were written in a time of either the Psalmist's distress or Israel's

20:58distress and they start out with a dilemma and they end up in confidence. They're just great confidence builders because they affirm who God is and they affirm what God has done. And again, I believe that fear is connected to two things. It is connected, first of all, to a lack of information and secondly to a lack of trust. What I mean by that is it's generally fear of the unknown that panics people. If you can see it coming, if it's there, if you can analyze it, you can deal with it. It's the blind side thing. And I think from the standpoint of a Christian, we can eliminate the lack of knowledge side of it by understanding Scripture. All that the Scripture says about life, all that it says about God's control over the circumstances of our life, all that it says about rejoicing in trials, all that it says about casting

21:58all our care on him for he cares for us, all that it says about he never slumbers or sleeps. He's always the watchful shepherd over his flock. Learning everything you can from the Word of God so that your knowledge of God is accurate. And when you know God who is the God revealed in Scripture, then I think you have the foundation on which to trust. Why do I trust God? I would not because I've cranked up my emotions. It's not because I've gritted my teeth and said, I'm going to hang in there and tough this out. The reason I trust God is because I know who he is and what he's promised because I have the information revealed to me in Scripture. And I think, when this is something very sad, there are so many people in the Christian church who have such a shallow understanding of the Bible. They have such a limited understanding of God. Many of them have been in these experiential kind of Christian churches or these seeker-friendly

22:59churches where they are literally injected with a placebo or their swallowing Sunday placebos instead of any nourishing vitamin. Anything that's going to make a difference in their life, that when it comes to the crisis, they have absolutely no foundation of the true knowledge of God on which to stand. When Larry King said to me, you don't have any fear of death, I said no. It's not because I'm better than anybody else, not because I have more resolution than anybody else or because I'm a tougher guy or because I'm more self-disciplined. It is connected completely to my understanding of who God is and what God has promised. So the direction you have to go in relieving anxiety is to know your God. It's that old thing that JB Phillips said long, long ago your God is too small. And if your God is too small, you got problems because when you hit the crisis, he's not big enough to carry you through it. And we need to know that our God is not small.

24:01We need to know our God. And that's why I've said preaching through the years that the goal of all preaching should be the revelation of God. Above all things, his greatness, his glory, his promises so that our faith rests truly in the one who is God. And then we can face anything, including death, unwaveringly. He's us right back to where we started when you used that illustration about Isaiah, who in the midst of all this tragedy that was falling on the nation, he saw God high and lifted up. And that's exactly what he needed to see. He needed to see God is on the throne, God is sovereign, God is holy. And this is happening within the framework of his sovereignty. This is happening within the framework of his holiness. He hasn't lost his control of anything. He is holy. And if you just think about that, God is not in the rubble. God is not up there, ringing his hands. God is on the throne. And the angels are saying, holy, holy, holy. And holy, holy, holy means that whatever happened was consistent with God's holiness. And I'll tell you what is consistent with God's holiness.

25:03Sinners die. They die in a building. They die on a deathbed. They die in a hospital. They die in a car wreck. They die here. They die there. But that's consistent with God's holiness. So why would we question where is God then, then at the death of anybody else any other time in the world? And I think I read one time where 78 or 80 people die every second. And I think it may be more than that now. Whereas God, I mean, death, I'll tell you where God is. God has every right to take the life of an individual who's the sinner because the wages have sinned his death. The only question, and this is what I kept going back to, the only question is, are you ready for your death? You have no control over it. Within the little break, I said to Larry, I tried to say, I said, I forget exactly what it was on air off, but I said, there's a terrible evil in the world. And it's getting everybody. And he sat back in his chair and he said, you're right, there's a terrible evil loose in the world.

26:04And I said, yeah, and it gets us all in its death. And the only question is, what are you going to do when it happens? That's the compelling question. And he understood that that's the question. So I think the way you resolve that question is to know the God who is the source of eternal life. You're listening to Grace to You, the Bible teaching ministry of John MacArthur. Today, in light of the 25th anniversary of the September 11th terrorist attacks, we aired the first part of a discussion I had with John shortly after 9-11. Well, friend, know that we at Grace to you want to do what we can to encourage you and the trials you face both now and in the future. And to that end, we want to send you a copy of John's book called The Power of Suffering, Free of Charge if you've never contacted us before.

27:05This book explains the gracious, good, and loving purposes God has for the pain and hardship in your life. And for a limited time, it's yours free if it's your first time contacting us. So request your free copy of The Power of Suffering when you get in touch today. You can call us at 855 Grace or visit our website, gty.org. With helpful chapters on preparing for suffering, dealing with trials, and examples of people who have faithfully endured hardship, the power of suffering will equip you to deal with tragedies and to understand God's care in the midst of them. Again, the power of suffering is free if it's your first time contacting us. If you've been in touch before, it's reasonably priced. Shipping is free. You can order your copy of The Power of Suffering by calling 855 Grace or go to the website, gty.org. And thanks for remembering to pray for us at Grace to you, pray for our staff, pray that

28:09our ministry will faithfully proclaim biblical truth as long as the Lord allows. And pray that those listening to this daily radio broadcast will be transformed by God's Word. We need your prayers. It's the most important way you can partner with us. And so thank you for doing that. Now for the entire Grace to you, staff, I'm Phil Johnson. Be back tomorrow as we continue to remember 9-11 with my interview with John MacArthur, called Standing Firm in Unstable Times. It's another half hour of unleashing God's truth one verse at a time. On Grace to you.