Spencer Matthews: Why I am obsessed with true crime (Part 2)

0:00Cuando cumples 45 te toca soplar muchas velas y examinarte contra el cáncer de colon, ya que al detectarse temprano es más tratable en 9 de cada 10 personas, usa la prueba de colo guard en la privacidad de tu casa y envía la de regreso para obtener tus resultados. La prueba de colo guard es una opción con receta para detectar el cáncer de colon en personas de 45 años o más con riesgo promedio. Resultados positivos deben ir seguidos de una colonoscopía pueden darse resultados falsos positivos y falsos negativos. La prueba de colo guard no reemplaza la colonoscopía en pacientes de alto riesgo. No uses colo guard si has tenido adenomas, si tienes enfermedad inflamatoria intestinal y ciertos síndrome sereditarios o una historia al personal o familiar de cáncer de colon. Pide la prueba de colo guard a tu médico para más información en español visita colo guard punto con diagonal prueba.

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2:05into the underworld, why not join us for a special live show on March 27th at the cork Opera House. We'll be talking about the making of a cartel and all the wild and crazy stories that happened along the way. So why not join us for this special live show tickets from cork podcastfestival.ai. His mind in order to protect himself fractured into different personalities so that he could avoid being Billy. He could speak different languages. He's never been telling these plays never studied the languages so he could reel off shit in other languages so that's the brain that's seen obviously something in Ukrainian on television as a kid and it's taken it and just stored it. It's not possible. I'm Nicola Talant and this is Crime World, a podcast about criminals, drugs and the sins of the underworld. If you like this podcast and want to learn more about crime, go to our new website www.crimeworld.com for stories, extras and

3:11podcasts, subscriber specials. Spencer Mathews first hit the headlines as one of the posh pampered stars of maiden Chelsea. But in recent years he has won over a new generation of fans with his heartfelt documentaries and self-depreciating podcast appearances. Today Spencer talks to Nicola about why he loves true crime and his plans for the future. I'm Nile Donald and this is Crime World, a podcast from crimeworld.com. Do you know who Billy Milligan is? No. Billy Milligan is one of the most fascinating studies of people, one of the most fascinating people in my opinion that's ever existed, right? So he had multiple personality disorder. So he had, I think it's called and I'm so sorry if I get this wrong, disassociative personality disorder, something like that where his mind literally splits into different characters. And I think he had, and again, I'm probably right, he had something

4:14like 20 or 22 people living inside his body. He was the first ever recorded case of committing a crime. He was called the college campus rapist. He raped and beat up a woman and got off completely by being able to prove that it wasn't him, that it was somebody else living inside his body and that he had no recollection nor was he even there. And just in passing, he didn't get off. He avoided jail time and was put in a facility where he didn't go to prison, right? He was shooting at people and there was many counts of rape and lots of different things. One of his characters commits arson and theft and robbery and gunpoint and held up banks. Another was an incredible artist. Another one was stronger than all of the other ones and was

5:17really violent and could fight. Others couldn't fight to save their life. I think it even said that like one was allergic to bees and the other was weren't like like wild stuff, right? The mind is fully reprogramming this person to literally, I think, you know, Em Knight, Shallyman's split, the film that they made with James McAvoy, quite a cool film. What's her name, Taylor Joy? Anna Taylor Joy and James McAvoy, play it and he has I think six or seven different people and he kidnaps the girls and you know, so I'm a really scary and one's a little kid. That's off Billy Milligan. So, so split is not a true story, but it was inspired by Billy Milligan. Tom Holland played him in some Apple series that I can't remember the name of, but but something inside me or, you know, do find that multiple personality thing really scary. You have to say, you know, I find that, you know, really frightening that somebody can jump from one personality or the one of them can,

6:19I suppose really the brain's capabilities. Yeah. And if you want correctly, you don't do that, but if you're not, that's some, that's an example of the brain just being extraordinary, isn't it? Being able to create, so as well, sorry, one last point on Billy, one of his altars, they call them, alter egos, altars, was Ukrainian, right? Yeah, yeah. And could speak like Ukrainian, right? And Billy Milligan has never been to Ukraine. He was brought up on some farm in Oregon, I think. His father used to sexually abuse him and bury him and do all kinds of just awful shit to him, like he used to urinate on him, used to beat the shit out of him and chain him up in barns. And like he had, you know, the worst part of it, you can imagine. And so his mind in order to protect himself fractured into different personalities so that he could

7:25avoid being Billy, because Billy was so traumatized that he would become you go or whatever it was. And he was able, he could speak different languages. He's never been to any of these places, never studied the languages, so he could reel off shit in other languages. So that's the brainless. He's seen obviously something in Ukrainian on televisions and kid, and it's taken it and just stored it. You know, it's not possible, right? But you should watch documentaries called The Many Faces of Billy Milligan, or The Many Sides of Billy Milligan, it's typing Billy Milligan to Netflix, it's all this bill, recommend it. I like it. And lastly, one of his altars was a doctor. And in order for the prosecution to try and prove that he was full of shit and just lying, they got an actual doctor to come in and discuss medicine in an open court setting, right? And the doctor, the actual doctor came out and said, yeah, absolutely categorically, the bloke in there that I'm talking to his doctor, never studied, never been to, you know, so yeah, just mad shit, you know.

8:30You know what's wild? Most people are still overpaying for car insurance, just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry. Jerry's the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurance in minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year before you renew your car insurance policy. Do yourself a favor. Download the Jerry app or head to jerry.ai slash a cast. Do you believe in reincarnation? Yeah, I probably would explain it. Yeah, no, no, so I probably do. Yeah, so not in the sense that like, I die and I come back as a caterpillar or something. But no, I think that there's a great book called Many Lives, Many Masters. Don't know if you've read that. And it's all about, I can't remember the author, God, it's been the end of a very long day. I'll send you the author's name. Dr. Brian Vice, I think, look at that. Dr. Brian Vice, I believe, it's definitely Dr. Brian. And he writes about this, sorry, do you mind me telling

9:33another quick story? Oh, do. It's a good recommendation. It's not bad. It's not bad. It's a pretty good one. He is a psychotherapist and he had a client come to him who's a middle age woman who was not particularly well-educated, like, you know, not, not damn either, but just didn't have a big worldly view and didn't have lots of education behind her. She was a normally anxious woman who was having an affair with a guy behind her husband's back and she was just anxious and generally stressed. She came to Dr. Brian Vice, and he ended up taking her to some Egyptian memorial thing, like a museum. And she has never had any interest in Egypt, but she went because she's shagging this guy that she was interested in and she couldn't care less about Egypt, right? And she went along to this thing just to appease him and found that she knew absolutely everything about Egypt when she arrived, right? So she was looking at stuff and the guy giving the lecture would say, this is an ancient artifact from, you know, this time period, this is what it was

10:35used for and she's a shy woman and she went, no, it wasn't, like, just out of the blue and she was like, that's used to clean, you know, the sultan's clothes or whatever, sorry for us, you know? That's used for something else, right? She knew what it was and he was like, no, no, it wasn't. She has the argument. She knows she's right. And, you know, long story short and you should read the book, it's easy read, lovely. She goes back into therapy, he starts doing past life-regressive therapy and starts hypnotizing her. She starts coming out with like a lot of stories from different times and different places and he's a reesgeptical, he's a psychotherapist. So he doesn't believe in any of this at this stage and he goes away and he fact checks a bunch of this stuff and realizes that like, there's no possible way that she can know these things, you know, he does like a massive deep dive and she's in 1404 and she's in the middle of, you know, the black plague and, you know, she's describing all this stuff that's happening to her in real time and how she's dying and, you know, turns out that did happen then and, you know, that would have

11:40been something that they would have used and that is the kind of medicine that was used in that time and she knew all of this stuff. And then when she was her normal self, she would never clue about any of it, like he'd chat to her and she'd just be blank. And of course people can go, well, yeah, she's just like pulling his leg, but it's a bit of a random thing to do to someone. And also, you know, she would describe dying and she would describe, because each of her experiences would end in a death and she would come back as somebody else and she would always be at the kind of shallow end of stuff so she would always have a really rough life this woman. So shame, isn't it? Yeah. And, uh, she comes back as a queen at some point, but she didn't, uh, anyway, unfortunately. And, uh, and she, uh, she would describe the same process every time when you die. It starts with pain, then the pain ceases, then there's a bright light, then you're transported up through this kind of portal, then you chat to these, these kind of, like, hooded individuals who were called the, uh, the masters, it's the name of the book. And they would, um, you know, speak this godly language onto you and she would regurgitate it to the thing and he found himself just like not, you know,

12:42finding it all incredibly inspiring and, um, and then they would decide whether or not you, uh, went back to earth, uh, or, or died and they would put you in a new body and, and that's, that's her experience. That's your back, wherever, over and over and over again, experience. So, I don't know. That's, yeah. If you asked me about, yeah, yeah, I did, I did because I think that's sort of always feeds into the multiple personalities thing, uh, perhaps, you know, there's something there. We're getting a bit deep. I'm going to bring it back to, uh, our quickfire questions on this. You're obviously very well read and you watch a lot and you, you like to take in, yeah? I find things fascinating. I'm really curious. If someone tells me that something, you know, godly is happening over here, I'll go and watch it. Yeah. Yeah. So, let's start with who is your favorite TV detective and or criminal? Who's your favorite criminal? Hmm. Your favorite, like, is it? That's a bit of a difficult one. Your favorite criminal. Uh, Hannibal Lecter's hard to beat. Yeah. Well, but, you know,

13:45I do love Anthony Hopkins as Oscar winning performance and silence of the lambs. You know, I think I think he is, uh, I love his intelligence. No memory of it. Yeah. I love, I love his nature. Well, you know, I find it fascinating. I think he's, um, he's a very interesting character. You know, I could watch a lot of him. Um, there's a strange, uh, kind of like drama and, like, intensity to Andrew Conanan. Do you remember him? The guy who killed Johnny Versace? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Basically was just looking to get a leg up in life and, you know, ended up making a mistake. Basically then was on the run quite violently in Miami. He's an interesting watch. Um, I quite like Benoit Blanc. The detective played by Daniel Craig. Yes. A bit of a Poirot vibe to it, but a little bit less gimmicky. Yeah. And, uh, no, I like, I like Daniel Craig. Um, so you watch loads of that stuff. I like a murder mystery job, you know. What would your death row meal be? My mom's roasts probably, you know, okay. I like that kind of thing. Uh, also, you know, nice and simple, maybe for, for death, you know, just, just, uh, to

14:50exit gracefully. Yeah. Um, you know, nice sandwich, maybe like hard to beat ham cheese and pickle sandwich is pretty good. Bread and butter, like a baguette with nice butter, just salt loads of salts. You want it in the well season. The problem is in prison, right? On death row. If you order like some delicious tea bone with, you know, mac and cheese, they're not going to, they're not going to season it. And then you're going to, it's actually going to be disappointing. It was disappointing. That's the thing. Yeah. Like you can't order like, you know, if you can choose where it comes from. Yeah. And possibly you'd have the tea bone from Dorian in Notting Hill or something like that. Or, you know, you get Tom Sträker to make you as, as muscle bread or whatever. That's not muscle bread. Muscles, obviously, you know, delicious. Um, you know, but no, if you're just asking the, the prison to get it, if you'd better, you'd better go simple. Sambo. Yeah. Yeah. Do you say a salmon bowl? Sambo, I said. Oh, Sambo. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, say, yeah, yeah. Ham cheese and pickle. You should be used to the, the double and eggs. Yeah. Sambo. I love a Sambo actually. No. Have you ever been the victim of a crime? Look, I'm sure we all have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Stuff, stuff's happened to me.

15:51I won't dig into too much. Just because like I've been in, I'm sure you've been robbed. Yeah. I've been robbed in the street. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The odd street fight. Yeah. Ever got a dump. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Definitely. I can't tell. Yeah. Yeah. You should be able to tell me. Yeah. No. Of course. Of course. Crimes all around us, really. You know, petty crime and whatever else. Yeah. I mean, we are sure I've been short-changed in a deal once or twice. You know, without being told, that's technically a crime. Some stuff's happened to me as well that I'd rather not go into. Yeah. How do you feel about seeing a corpse? I've seen corpses. I've seen dead bodies on Everest. I was on Everest for five weeks looking for my brother's body. I made a film called Finding Michael. We returned a dead body to a family, actually. So I flew down from base camp in a helicopter with a dead churper who we returned to his family. And the daughter was my age when I lost

16:53Michael. She was 10 and she was incredibly upset to see her father like that. And for a second, I thought we'd done the wrong thing. Although in the poly culture, he can't pass the afterlife until he's cremated. Okay. So he was stuck up there. So his family were deeply grateful. And it would be a huge comfort to them. I'm sure they're that belief. Yeah. I think the daughter also came around to it. Yeah. I think it was just the initial shock because he was frozen stiff, obviously. So yeah, I, you know, I spent several hours with a dead body. I've seen dead bodies in in Arusha. I've seen dead bodies in Morocco, like, yeah, I don't think it's some. Yeah, I don't think it's creepy. I imagine, and I've only seen photographs of murder victims. It's a totally different thing. The violence of us, the contorted way. They are left. Those kind of things are totally different, but a peaceful, you know, person who has passed away is a different thing altogether. Going for an app and not waking up would be a nice way to go. Oh, for God's sake,

17:58I mean, what percentage of people do that? And now, is it quite a lot? Is it an app like during the day? No, I'd like to go nice. Oh, does it matter about the time? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'd like to do afterwards if you were just going for an app like you could be going out or something, your disaster. Yeah. I suppose, yeah, if you had dinner reservations, you'd maybe rather open the office. No, it happened at night. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities, so do like I did, and have one of your assistance assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra, default terms at mintmobile.com. You know what's wild? Most people are still overpaying for car insurance, just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry. Jerry's the only app that compares rates from over 50

19:00insurance in minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year before you renew your car insurance policy. Do yourself a favor. Download the Jerry app or head to jerry.ai slash a cast. I read stuff about sport. I recently read in jaw by Alex Hutchinson, an amazing sports book. Obviously this isn't a sports podcast, but if you're into the body and the mind and how you push yourself really far, this book is incredible. But no, maybe I would like a bit of crime. Yeah. Oh, what about that guy recently? Is it Des? He just killed a bunch of

20:01people and just had like bone stuff in his in his plumbing? Like can you remember? Yes. Yeah, I think it's called Des. It's on Netflix again. Okay. I look if you haven't noticed that. I like that name that you'd expect. I think it's called Des. Yeah. Murderer is called Des. And he's played by Desmond. Well, yeah, I guess. Yeah. Desi, like a Des. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Well, we'll look at that. Yeah. So this guy in this play, yeah, it was just killing people and just stuffing them like down the drains basically. Dends drains. If you had to commit a crime, what would it be? I would sell stuff with incredibly high margins. Yeah. Yeah. I do the same. I actually went once to Indonesia posing as buyers for, you know, tobacco. And we actually got a deal to have us brought into Croatia and then we were going to sell us. Like, I mean, this was all this sort of tobacco you say, like fictiony sort of character. Yeah. Because I thought tobacco was okay. So I've drugs and it's okay. And then I was looking at the kind of how much I could make. And I was never so tempted in all my life.

21:03And then you thought, this model is interesting. I know. And I would just go once, make a little, you know, a packet and that be as I would never go back to it again. I think that's the problem with it, isn't it? I think I think the same as most things. If you dip your toe and you pull it off, I've got an addictive personality. It's just, you know, you can imagine it being quite easy money. So it's kind of like, you know, you look at it and you go, you'd be just, I'm just not, I'm just not going to start because, you know, if I get that easy, you know, easy money, it's quite hard to come by. I don't mind a bit of risk, you know, but it's kind of it the buzz. I think I think back to our very first point, almost is, you know, I'm very lucky with the upbringing I've had, I'm very lucky with the set of scenarios that I have in the life that I live. If I didn't have a lot of the options that I do have, what could be very dangerous? Absolutely. And some Matthews, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a real pleasure.

22:59Which is just a click away. So we're going to do a rest here. We're going to start this tone which is the sort of the life and crimes of Christy Kinahan, senior who has to be the most fascinating individual in the entire sort of Kinahan Cartel set, you know, the, I mean, he is an intriguing character to say the least. I think he's the most interesting of all the Ganglang criminals really. If you see where he's come from and where he's ended up and how he's managed to navigate through all of those eras of organized crime. An incredible story. If in a nutter, if he was involved in a nutter arena of life, it he'd be regarded as as a kind of her heroic Mrs. Man, but of course he's not. He's involved in a murderous cartel, but an incredible story. And there's a little bit of intrigue and mystery to his background, which we're going to go into. Some of it is clear. And other bits, the stories that go around the mix and you can never,

24:03like for example, you know, some people would say he was a heroin addict. I know he did tell the courts at one point that he did that, but he did it for a reason. And the reason was he wanted a free education. Yeah, no, I mean, it's very interesting, the heroin addict. And maybe we'll come back to that. We'll come back to it because that is something that's, you know, certainly some people close to him say that was never the case. Yeah. And those who were sort of, I suppose, become his enemies in more recent times would definitely say that like it's a stick to beat him. Exactly. Yeah. But there's other little bits that are unusual. We'll start and we'll we'll we'll go through as much as we we know factually. And then we'll also discuss the rumors. So he's born in 1957. He's six years older than Jerry the monk Hutch, which just gives him a little bit of a, you know, we can we can see where he is. He's what I would always say was into the bosom of a respectable middle class family in their summer tree comes with this. His father to my understanding was a taxi driver who worked the Gresham rank on Stephen's green.

25:07And that would have been a good job. That would have been a good job. A well-earning job, certainly taxis back in the day when taxis were protected. His father was also at some point registered or I think on as a as a dairy farm manager. And also people would say he was involved in kind of street trading. Not, you know, as a lot of people in Dublin would have been over the years, involved in some stalls and selling and that sort of arena. So he, Christy Kinnon is raised in Cabra, but his bachelor says that he was born in in England in a place called Perry Vale in near Ealing, I think, in London. So this is the 19, the late 1950s when at that time in Irish history, we were, you know, there was high unemployment. A huge number of people left Ireland to go to England at times to get work. Many of them returned, but that would have been one of the big points of emigration where young couples got married and went over

26:13there. Certainly Christy Kinnon wasn't raised in England, but he certainly does seem to have had lived there at times. He's had connections to Birmingham and that sort of area, maybe all his life. So he's described, I suppose, as a middle class, having a middle class upbringing. Well, I suppose the first house that we can look upon that we know he was in as a child, and he was the only boy in the family of three girls, Denise, Maria, and Sally Ann. The mother appears to run a B&B from what is a generous Edwardian house? Do you know the name of the road? Charlesville Road. So I mean, yeah, I know it well. I mean, I would have grown up very close to there. I mean, those houses are a huge amount of money. Now, like a lot of houses in that area, for example, those big houses on the North Circle of Road, which aren't far away, and there probably would have been times where you would have picked them up at a bargain price, but it would be a very, very far away from some of the figures we've discussed, for example,

27:19the grinding poverty in which Jerry Hutch would have been born into. Certainly, Christy Kinnon would have been raised in something that's now worth a huge amount of money that home, and it's part of it. Would they have always been a middle class sort of a home or are you using that term very loosely here? I, I, I, you know, that's part of East Cabra. Yeah. Now, if you walk through East Cabra now, you can't, there's, there's organic coffee shops and all of that sort of stuff and houses being sold for routinely close to half a million. Like back in the, in the 60s, it wouldn't have been so much like that, I think. And those houses, like a lot of places in, in sort of stony batter, or somewhere like that, they, those houses wouldn't have been seen as, as, you know, posh houses. What, what, what a taxi driver's wage have bought that house? Well, it would have, you know, it would have, I mean, it would be, it would be far, far bigger than most houses in that area and would have cost a lot of money. But I suppose it's a different context

28:22than Cabra would have been different then. And Christy Kinnon would have been growing up in like in the, in the 60s, early 70s, when he's a teenager. And Cabra at that stage would have been a lot kind of wilder, I suppose, like a lot of areas, it was, there was a lot of homes built at one stage and young people grew up. And, and, you know, it certainly would be a far more settled area, just like places in places like Crumlin and Drinda have become far more settled as the time has gone on. And so he would have been brought up in an area that I wouldn't describe as being sort of upper middle class, middle class area. He would have been grown up in a, in a working class area, in a big house, in a working class area. And yeah, it's the big house. Yeah, it's an impressive looking house that always would have been. We do have some suggestion that the family originally lived in St. Teresa's gardens. Yeah. To go from St. Teresa's gardens to Cabra and to this Edwardian period property is a huge leap. It is a huge leap. And people would have said to me, for example,

29:25that, you know, the connection between the Covenant and the Kennen family, for example, has always been a bit, where does that, where does Barmer Covenant's parents, Barmer Covenant's parents would have known Christy Kennen's dad, they would have been friendly all those people have known involvement in crime. There's no, no suggestion of that, but that it would have been, I suppose, you know, maybe not as straightforward as this is a, he's a middle class guy. It's, it's somewhere along that line, I suppose. And like most Irish people have, you know, it's, it's, the poverty is only one generation away, I suppose. Well, he certainly had aspirations. And he was very smart, very soon school, though, though it is said. And you know, it just shows you when somebody gets as big a new story as Christy Kennen that his leaving search results have been made public. Do you know that? I didn't know that. And maybe not made public. But the, the, the, the son did a story about how he actually failed his leaving. Right. So Christy Kennen looked, there's no data better than being smart, but certainly that was said that he only passed two subjects. And he

30:31would have gone to, it said he was went to Declan's and Cabra first and got expelled and then went to O'Connell's in, in, in the North inner city. Now, O'Connell's Christian Brother School, probably one of the most famous schools in Dublin. And my own father would have gone there. They, people would have got a scholarship and would have seen to have been a really prestigious school. Past pupils would have included James Joyce, Pacquenny, the broadcaster, former T-Shock, Sean Lamass, PJ Mara, and also interestingly and probably a relative contemporary of, of Christy Kennen would have been a Tony Gregory would have gone there, who would play a huge prominent role in the, the anti-drugs marches in the city. So he would have gone, he would have, again, that would have been sort of a prestigious school, but he seems to have not thrived. And then, I think we get into a bit of a gray area when he leaves school. But he excelled apparently in sports and a kickboxing. Yes, and that was a thing that he kept up, I think, through all his

31:34life one way or another. And obviously his sons would have a huge interest in boxing as well. When it comes to managing money, forget the hype and look at the results. Bill has a trillion dollars of secure payments powering our bill pay tools. Instead of just moving money, Bill is powering the financial operations of nearly half a million customers. So stop the guesswork and start scaling with the proven choice. Ready to talk with an expert? Visit bill.com slash proven to get started. And grab a $250 gift card as a thank you. Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details.

32:37Cuando cumples 45, te toca, soplar muchas velas y examinarte contra el cáncer de colon, ya que al detectarse temprano es más tratable en 9 de cada 10 personas. Usa la prueba de collo guard en la privacidad de tu casa y envía la de regreso para obtener tus resultados. La prueba de collo guard es una opción con receta para detectar el cáncer de colon en personas de 45 años o más con riesgo promedio. Resultados positivos deben ir seguidos de una colonoscopía pueden darse resultados falsos positivos y falsos negativos. La prueba de collo guard no reemplaza la colonoscopía en pacientes de alto riesgo. No uses collo guard si has tenido adenomas, si tienes enfermedad inflamatoria intestinal y ciertos síndrome sereditarios o un historial personal o familiar de cáncer de colon. Pide la prueba de collo guard a tu médico para más información en español visita collo guard.com diagonal prueba.