Speaking up for Gaza

0:00Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he wants to strip citizenship from two Israeli directors who made an acclaimed documentary detailing atrocities in Gaza. Also, Maccomore is back. What do these things have in common? Well, boycotts and protests of pro-Israel Israeli artists, Israel critical Israeli artists, non-Israeli artists who are pro or anti-Israel artists who don't want to say anything about Israel at all and artists who just wanted to say, free Palestine. Our leading to cycles of cancellation, retribution and resignation. So, is any of this helping people in Gaza? Is that even the point? We're going to ask coming up on today explained from Fox. Support for today's plane comes from Anthropic.

1:02The team behind Claude. Anthropic is a public benefit corporation founded on a hard question. That question is, how do we make sure AI goes well for people? They're working on it, publishing what they find even when it's uncomfortable. There's hope in hard questions. Ask your hard question at claw.ai slash today explained that's c-l-a-u-d-e.ai slash today explained. If your best finance people are doing expense reports, chasing receipts or spending time on month and close, it's time to get Brex A.F., agentic finance that eliminates that work before it starts. Learn more at Brex.com slash A.F. This is today explained. I'm Newell King. Most people haven't had a chance yet to see the documentary in Gaza, but Bilga Beary did at the Venice Film Festival where the filmmakers Yvall Abraham and Rachel Zor got a 25 minute standing ovation.

2:03Naza is a very grim documentary in which one of the directors Yvall Abraham sits on various rooftops in Tel Aviv and interviews 24 different Israeli intelligence agents and soldiers about some of the things they did during the Gaza war. And most of what they talk about are the different systems they used to effectively destroy homes and buildings in Gaza. The term Naza refers to collateral damage. It's a collateral damage figure. So for example, when they say something has four Naza, that means there are four other people killed besides the main target in a bombing. So at various points, different interviews talk about five Naza, ten Naza, twenty Naza, two hundred Naza. And all the different interviews are hidden.

3:09They're kind of covered by night because it's all shot at night. It's all shadow. It's a very dark, dark, like visually dark movie. So we don't get their names. We don't see their faces. And we've also been told that their voices have been modified. Some of them are very regretful. Some of them talk about how they kind of got into this, how they felt doing it, how they felt afterwards. One of them talks about how when he was younger, he went to Poland to learn more about the Holocaust. And he was kind of obviously knew about the Nazis but was kind of appalled at what he saw. And then even at one point says, I still think the Nazis are pure evil. What does that make me? Another one agrees that it's a genocide. While we see these interviews, there are also cutaways to buildings in Tel Aviv. This is kind of a very calm place. And Gaza, which is not that far away, has been basically completely obliterated. And there's kind of a contrast being presented in this.

4:15A couple of people talk about this notion that Hamas uses human shields, which is a way of saying, well, you know, there are homes where there's also military operations happening. Obviously, the implication is that that's a human shield. At the same time, you know, the film makes the point, Tel Aviv is also where the Israeli military is headquartered. And in fact, at one point, among all these homes that we see in Tel Aviv, we see what appears to be a military boardroom with soldiers and fatigues inside it. So why is that not considered a human shield? That's kind of the question they're almost asking. You know, so there's a certain sort of exposing of the hypocrisy behind that statement as well. I saw your review in New York magazine, like a lot of people. The headline called this one of the most important films of our time. I don't think of you as an exaggerator. Tell me what you meant by that. I think Nasa is one of the most important films of our time, not just because of what it exposes, although what it exposes is extremely important.

5:16And even though it's not graphic really at all except for one brief section at the end when we do see Gaza, and I think that moment is very important, it's there to make you feel a kind of visceral outrage at what you're hearing. And you start to imagine what this could look like. Because people talk about how they can hack almost every phone in Gaza and they can listen in on families while they bomb them. And they can hear moms screaming over their dying children. You know, the filmmakers have talked about how they are, in fact, using their privilege as Israelis to essentially put this out into the world. Because the reporting in the film is not new. These reports have been published in the Guardian in 972 magazine and other outlets. They also talked in their press conference about how Palestinian journalists have reported on this stuff. I think if a Palestinian, you know, Palestinian colleagues and journalists would try to

6:18call Israeli intelligence officers, you know what will happen. Like they will be maybe arrested indefinitely or killed and murdered like 200 journalists in Gaza and dozens across the West Bank. So we are examining a system where we know we have privileged. And I think by making a film, by premiering it at a big film festival, by kind of drawing the attention of the world on you, they feel that they can bring about more effective change that way and actually get people to cover it as we're seeing. There's more coverage of Gaza than there was of these revelations earlier from the Guardian or from these other papers. So my name is Shani Lytman. I'm a journalist for Harat's newspaper. I'm writing magazine pieces and also op-eds and sometimes film critics. Have you seen the documentary NASA? I haven't. I asked the PR person of the movie to send me a link and it's not possible.

7:22They don't have available links at the moment. I mean, considering the huge storm that came out now, they're probably rethinking how to handle the distribution of the film. We're going to be talking today about what the reaction to this film in Israel has been like. But I think what I hear you saying is it's safe to assume most people in Israel have not actually been able to see the movies, right? Yes, that's correct. But they are aware of what is in it. Let's talk about the conversation around this movie in Israel. It's the reaction that Mike. So I think you can find many different types of criticism from all sides of a political range, by the way. It's not only right wing people or people who are supporting the war. The claims are first that maybe the film itself is not verified. They have witnesses that are anonymous and you cannot, and they didn't verify well enough.

8:28But I think most people are just, they just feel that this is an opportunity for all the pro-Palestinian anti-Israelian anti-Semite people in the world to attack Israel. Naza is part of psychological warfare aimed at the Israeli public and IDF soldiers. Inside Israeli society, the film becomes an internal voice telling Israelis the war they are fighting isn't just. They have internalized Jew hate and in turn used their Jewishness to kosher anti-Jewish ideas by assuming the role of the good Jew. It will not protect them. But in the process, it can do untold damage to the Jewish people. Israelis from all sides are afraid of the way the world is seeing us at the moment. It's something that is really important. Is anybody in Israel saying, hey, we're glad that they did it. We're glad that they made this movie.

9:29Yes, there are people who are supporting you, Valender, Held, the filmmakers, supporting the right to criticize, to investigate. Because a liberal country, we should be able to investigate ourselves, to criticize ourselves. And this is something that they are doing. They are doing their work as journalists. There has also been a reaction from the Israeli government at a more official level. What has the Israeli government said about this film? So the first person to react was the minister of culture. I will act immediately to revoke the Israeli citizenship of these despicable creators for treason against the state. He said that Israel should, the nationality of Yuval and the Raqel, the filmmakers should be revoked. That we should take their nationality. They should not be Israeli citizens anymore. And there's a really long history of films that were criticized especially by different

10:38culture ministers. But the way, I mean, I haven't seen anything like this, like what is happening now before. This is really frightening. I don't know. I'm completely horrified by this. I already saw some clips on social media. By people who were filming themselves, where you can see, like in the background, you could see a house. And someone was saying, you can all come here. This is the house of Raqel Shorl's parents. They live here and you can do whatever you want. I invite you all to come here and take revenge.

11:38And there were several clips with the same message, I guess. I'm guessing they're not coming back to Israel at the moment. I think it has become really dangerous for them to be here. And it's a new level. I've never, even I published an article about this. I didn't do the movie. I just published an article supporting them at Haaretz, in Haaretz. And my mother is afraid that someone will attack me. I mean, this is also, yeah, like the echoes of this event are, they're going very far now. Shani Litman of Haaretz, you also heard from Bilga Abiri of New York Magazine, thanks to them. When we come back, the boy cuts.

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15:53This is today explained. Arnold Rosenfeld is the Washington correspondent for Harret's. He's been writing about boycott of art and artists from Israel and those who have spoken about Israel and Gaza. So the Sheeran craft, Macklemore, debacle did not exactly catch him off guard. Yeah. I think that the sort of boycott and then reverse boycott, which you can sort of view this as right that is reported that Robert Kraft put pressure on Ed Sheeran to drop Macklemore. And then in response, other musical acts, basically boycott Ed Sheeran's tour. And there have been fans who are very upset to some degree, this speaks to the immanence that a lot of people feel about the actual events in Israel and Palestine, right? That policymakers are not actually changing the facts on the ground. And so it's incumbent on them to do something. And that comes out in these boycotts, but it's certainly not limited to one side. The power dynamics are different and interesting. But yeah, everyone's boycotting everyone it seems. The movie, NASA is particularly interesting because it brings attention to atrocities

16:58and Gaza. But there are people who are denouncing the movie not because of what it says or doesn't say, but because it was Israelis that made the movie. What's going on there? Yeah. So I think it's a few things that are going on. One is sort of a legitimate critique that we often hear. I think it has its own problems. But it's basically a complaint that when Israelis call out Israeli human rights abuses, they're taken more seriously than when Palestinians call out those same things. So sort of like, why did we need an Israeli film to tell us about these things? We've been saying them for three years or 10 years or 20 years. And I get that. I don't think it's that unusual. This is a pretty common thing that when someone who is on the side that is being accused of wrongdoing, acknowledges wrongdoing, that's given greater weight because their view is like less biased. But I get why people think that's problematic. What we're also seeing though is just this kind of complete and total demonization, not just of Israel, but of like anything associated with Israel.

17:59So the fact that the filmmakers are Israeli, even though they share the political critique of Israel's, you know, opponents and critics abroad, is viewed as like, it must be disqualifying because Israelis are bad people. I'm not supporting anything made by proud Israelis, even if it's supposedly pro-Palestine. The half hour ovation is simply ridiculous. Naza is a couple liberal Zionists that see their apartheid occupation is near its end. So they're trying that old criminal's trick. See ya. So I don't know what to do with this information that Israelis made a film or are engaged in a critique that I share. And you know, a lot of it is just about this kind of vitriolic hatred toward Israelis regardless of the political context. This is not the first time that this has happened since October 7th. You've written about other examples, other complex examples. Tell me about something that you followed. So you know, Nadav Lapid, who's an Israeli filmmaker who's sort of been living in self-imposed exile in France, was sort of kicked out or pressured to leave a film festival in France

19:07because the film that he had produced, which was very critical. It wasn't a documentary like Naza, but it was basically also accusing Israel of genocide had received a grant from, I mean, the justification was sort of that it had received some grant from some quasi-governmental or an NGO in Israel that received government funding and that therefore he was complicit even though he's like one of the main public enemies of like the culture ministry. And he said at the time, like, what do you want from me? Like I left. You think like Jews have unfair privilege in Israel or that Israeli Jews should leave. Like I left. I'm in France. Like you think we should speak out against the government? I'm speaking out against the government. That's what my film is about. And you know, still that wasn't viewed as sufficient. So it's a fractured thing that we're seeing similarly with Naza. I wouldn't characterize it the main response as being a critical or calling for a boy god of the film. It's just elements within the movement, but it's a real, you know, line of division. A similar incident. Israeli authors. There's been a lot of Israeli authors talking about difficulty being published or getting

20:11their books into translation. There have been, you know, Israeli musical acts who have faced protests or interruptions at their concert. So, so yeah, that's been going on for a long time. It's just interesting now that it's also spilling over into the Israelis who are being critical of the government. And that's still not viewed as good enough by some people. Historically, there has been a difference between people complaining online, even if we're talking about like hundreds of thousands of people complaining online and a formal boycott. What form are these critiques taking? Are these formal boycotts? Are they informal boycotts? Like what is behind them? So the BDS movement, which stands for boycott, divest and sanction, is this sort of global, you know, nonviolent campaign to pressure Israel to, it depends who you talk to, but to change its policies to the Palestinians in one way or another. And so the idea is, you know, one tranche of that is boycotts that kind of anyone can participate in.

21:11And those are intended to be strategic boycott targets. So you know, we're going to boycott soda stream to pressure them to, you know, move their manufacturing facilities. Honestly, boycott side of string, free Palestine, literally like old annexes, made in Israel, made in Israel. Boycott side of string. And if you want to be a good little watermelon and help out any way you can, I'm going to show you an alternative to the CO2 cylinders if you still want to keep your bubbles. We're going to pressure caterpillar to not sell, you know, bulldozers to the Israeli military. Caterpillar is very much still providing the Israeli government with the tools they need to displace and disprocess the Palestinian people to keep the apartheid going. Zionists in Israeli products have no business in Costco. We don't want to be buying their products. So boycott cat and free Palestine. And so I think the boycotts look like different things depending on the context. When it came to Israeli restaurants in the US or restaurants with Israeli chefs, I mean, you know, there was sort of a sense of you shouldn't go patronize them. Some have since closed and blamed those boycotts for their closure.

22:14It's really hard to measure the impact. And a lot of it is more about online vitriol than it is. I mean, I haven't seen calls on like the New York, you know, the film festival in New York, the toasting, Nasa to like not host it. So in the case of Nasa, it's not even clear that it's like a boycott of the film itself. It's more just like this outrage toward the filmmakers. The response to these boycotts has been interesting in a lot of ways. Some people see them as justified isolation of artists and institutions that support Israel or that get support from Israel. And some say, look, you are pushing Israeli artists out of public life. So there is, there is nuance here. There is nuance to disagreement even. How do you make sense of the nuance disagreement? You know, I think that part of the argument is I am not even sure that there is actually disagreement that these things are intended to push Israeli artists and public figures out of public life outside of Israel.

23:15I think they, you know, both sides sort of agree that that is the goal. The disagreement is whether that is justified. And I think that, you know, the refrain from people who think this is unacceptable or anti-Semitic is that we don't do this to other countries, which is by and large, true that, you know, if you're a filmmaker from China or Syria or elsewhere, you know, you were not expected to answer for your government's actions. And I think the retort is that the Jewish Israeli public is much more supportive of the things that people are mad at the Israeli government for. So there was widespread Israeli Jewish support for Israel's campaign in Gaza. The flip side of that is that, of course, many of the Israeli artists and professors and other public figures who are traveling and speaking and doing events abroad, especially those who are not doing those things to defend Israel, are critics of the government or are more likely to be more liberal and more sympathetic to the protesters. But I think that, you know, the discourse became so polarized that the request was not

24:18just for you to express concern about Palestinian civilians. For example, it was really for you to completely disown, you know, Israeli identity, condemn the Israeli government, fully embrace sort of anti-Zionism. And that was something that like Israeli non-starter, even for many very liberal Israeli Jews. And so that's where kind of the tensions kicked out of the forum. We would assume that the point of a boycott is to change the conditions that people are so appalled by, right? Put pressure on the Israeli government to stop what is happening in Gaza. And I wonder, you know, whether in this case we see any of that actually happening, whether there is any evidence that the Israeli government in the face of boycotts and protests and people talking online, people canceling each other and canceling other people, whether there is any evidence that the Israeli government is changing tact here. I think the short answer is no. And I think that it's a little bit misguided to view the boycotts and the other pressure

25:21as an attempt to like specifically change Netanyahu's like personal policies with the Israeli government's personal policies or even to like directly appeal to the Israeli public. I think there's an understanding that they are not receptive to protests in, you know, New York or London or Antwerp or what have you, but that the governments might be, right? And so that all of this public pressure may have played a role in the United Kingdom and France and Canada, you know, releasing these sanctions targeting, you know, goods from the West Bank or targeting settler leaders, et cetera. And so I mean, a lot depends on the upcoming Israeli election, right? Netanyahu seems pretty set on not changing. But you know, if you get a new leader in there, even if they're not, I mean, they're not going to elect like a truly left-wing leader, but they might elect someone who says, you know, what like the praise that we're paying for defending violent settlers in the West Bank is not worth the cost of these sanctions. So it's hard to draw one to one. I don't think the boycott movement has always been extremely strategic, but I think that's

26:25the chain that they see, you know, it following. Arno Rosenfeld, Washington correspondent for Haaretz. Today's team, Ariana Sputu, Jolly Myers, Bridger Dunnigan, Kelly Westinger, and me, Noelle King. It's today Explained.