Shenzhen's school uniforms back in focus

0:00The back-to-school scramble used to mean overpriced uniforms and endless waiting, but not in Chengeon. Parents there pick up a standard school shirt at the corner store, the supermarket, or through a delivery app, all for the price of a meal. The city set a unified design, then stepped back and let the market take over. And it worked. So what's the hidden formula and could this same approach reinvent how we deliver other public services? Live from our studios in Beijing, this is Round Table, I'm Steve Hatherley, thank you so much for being with us today and for the show, I'm with Fei Fei and you, Sean. Imagine starting a new school year and realizing you don't need to wait for your school to order uniforms. In South China's Xinjiang, parents can simply walk into a neighborhood shop or a supermarket

1:00or even open a delivery app and buy a standard school uniform for just a few dozen yuan. The design is unified across the city, but production and sales are left to the market. So how did Xinjiang turn school uniforms into a low-cost, widely available product and could this model work for other public services, Fei Fei and you, Sean, good afternoon to you both. Yeah, I've never worn a school uniform ever in any of my school days, elementary school, middle school, high school and of course university, no. But yeah, in Canada, it's just not a thing unless you're going to private schools. But I think we used to complain a lot about school uniforms when I was in high school elementary and junior high school uniforms because all the school uniforms are kind of baggy, oversized, oversized so people don't like it because they're... Not so fashionable. Yeah. Well, we're not here today to debate the merits of school uniforms or not.

2:01We're here to talk about what Xinjiang did with their system and why people are talking about it now because what they did with their system is not entirely new, but yet it's back in the news once again. Yeah, so the other day I was trying to search for a potential topic that we can discuss on roundtable and this is what pops up. A hashtag called Xinjiang School Uniforms are truly amazing so I click in. And the picture shows the iconic blue and white uniforms and if you look down, the price is all under 100 yuan which is relatively affordable in terms of school uniforms and they are already readily available at supermarkets, stationary stores and even futilely prep forms which is totally different from how school uniforms was once sold or provided to us when we were child like 10, 20 years ago. And then there's another good news on that same article too. So on August 27th, the country's first group standard, well, first group standard for school uniform colors, Xinjiang primary and secondary school students uniform colors

3:05was released and that one is to clarify on the types of blues, navies and whites for school uniforms, the colors, specifically on the colors of how it should be used. And what colors are allowed? Yeah, because when it comes to Xinjiang school uniforms, it's not really new anymore because for the past decade, more than a decade in the city of Xinjiang, they've been adopting the same style for all school uniforms across the city. But the colors, when it comes to the color blue, we probably have a dozen different choices as well. We have sapphire, we have light blue, we have sky blue. So these group standards basically clarifying on what kind of blues, what kind of navies and in particular, what kind of whites can be used in this school uniform. I'm a little confused by that. So the school uniforms all across Xinjiang, no matter which district you're going to

4:05school in, it makes no difference. The design of the school uniforms is going to be exactly the same. And it's going to be exactly the same in elementary school and junior high and high school. So all through your school years. Yeah, so if you go to a street in Xinjiang today and you saw a bunch of school students, you can't really tell which schools they're from because they're wearing basically the same thing. Unless what's the differences here is all the seasons, like of course summer clothes, will we do different from winter clothes? But the colors, the design, the stripes, lawnslave, short sleeves are exactly the same. Okay, so when you said there's a debate about the shades of blue or the shades of white, what exactly are you talking about? I mean, I'm going to use the color white as an example. I think when it comes to white, when you're by a white shirt, see through can be one of the problems because sometimes you need, you buy a white shirt.

5:09Sometimes you don't have the problems, but sometimes you can see through your underwear. If it's too fair, yeah. And in these standards, the new rules enforce a strict anti-seer through index of at least a 93, that's their rating measuring index. So for any school uniforms in the city that's been manufactured and produced, they need to have that density rating system where the fabric conceals, conceals undergarments and their normal daylight to protect students' privacy. And that's one of the standards within these newly published school colors. And also when it comes to, for example, the color blue, they also specified on the certain type of blue can be used in school uniforms. And another thing is about the digital quality control. So every approved garment carried a unique QR code.

6:10And so for parents and students who scan this code can be, can know and trace where their products are from. And even, you mentioned earlier that this is not entirely new, even back in early 2000 in 2002, Shenzhen already selected a unified uniform design through a public design competition. That's how they get the gather the ideas from not only students and teachers, but also parents, what kind of color and design do they think that's the most proper. And then in 2018, Shenzhen also ended centralized procurement and removed the government's that guidance prize in terms of just school uniforms, opening this market to competition. So meaning that at least for Shenzhen locally, that's how it's been for the past two decades. And that's why you say when deciding on a shade of white or when deciding on a shade of blue, the general design and colors of the uniform still remains largely the same.

7:12But there is some flexibility in there on things like that. So the new rules say, okay, you can go with different shades of white, but at least it can't be somewhat transparent. Yeah. You have to make it a certain thickness so that you can't see through it. Also, for the quality control, you have to have a little QR code thing on there to guarantee the quality of the uniform. And the reason for all of this is because schools are not in the purchasing business anymore for school uniforms. They no longer order uniforms. They no longer collect money for uniforms. They don't manage supplies. Parents, it's all up to them. They decide when to buy, how many to buy, where to buy them. And that could be local shops and supermarkets. It could be as you mentioned online delivery platforms. And the reason for these quality control standards is because it is open to the market. That means you have a lot of suppliers.

8:12You have various companies producing these uniforms. And obviously they are not all going to be of the same color and all the same quality. Yeah. And this makes sense now because traditionally it wasn't always like this. Like I mentioned earlier, before each school has its own design, its own color coordination. Even like for example, for the high school or junior high at least that I attended, they even have differentiation in terms of color for boys and girls. So that's all the design variations one school can come up with. Plus the additional school badge they add at the left chest of the school uniforms. They're dispatching to the students. And also traditionally the schools act as some sort of a middleman because they buy uniforms in bulk buy from designated suppliers. And then it's kind of like given as a set meal for the students to purchase. Like it's done every once in three years.

9:14Sometimes every school in the start of a school year, you know the teachers will go to the classroom saying, you know, notifying all the students is time to buy new clothes. And the students of course will order through the teacher. And then of course the teacher will handle that list to the school. Then make place orders with the suppliers. And that's how you also get the uniforms. The school will later, you know, distribute all the uniforms within the school. So the kids show up traditionally the kids would show up to the first day of school wearing just like a t-shirt and a pair of shorts or whatever or whatever they want. Yeah. Then they give their order to the teacher. The teachers all collect those orders and the school has a deal with some certain suppliers with some manufacturer or supplier. And that's a relationship that may have gone on for a very long time where that specific company would be supplying the school with all the uniforms for all the students.

10:15You mentioned the school badges and the new way of doing things in Shenzhen. You don't have that. I was going to ask. So the school badges are gone too. Yeah. So your car really tell which school, because when I was a student, you can basically tell which school this kid is from based on the color or the design of the school uniform. But of course, now in Shenzhen, you can't really make that difference because every kid wears exactly the same thing. So yeah, putting the badge on the uniform would completely defeat the purpose of having all of the uniforms look uniform, on the pun intended. Why did Shenzhen do this? Because this, it goes back a long time to 2002 and then a reform in about what, eight years ago or so. Why did they do this in the first place? Because we've talked about how school badges and colors and design can make one style of uniform looking distinct. So this, we can call that a one school one style system. This system itself had nevertheless created a culture of comparison among the students with

11:19differences in quality and huge price gaps between schools and families too. So in order to address this, the school uniform design competition was held, like I mentioned earlier in early 2000, to gather extensive input from students, parents and the public. And yeah, also in 2002, it became the first city, Shenzhen, in China, to standardize the school uniform styles and colors across all schools backed by regulations on just standardized dress too. So when you say, like for example, a culture of comparison. Yeah, that can be much more than just for like schools who are like quality with the clothes and stuff. Like for example, for after school, external study rooms and sometimes students from different schools can gather in one study room. And back then, depending on which color and which style of uniform you're wearing, the teacher may just tell which school you're from. And that can create just a little bit of nuance of, you know, if you're from one of the

12:24good schools, it's very obvious, of course. Yeah, you sit at the front, you get all the chances to answer questions. So you might be, you might have been treated differently. Could be. Could be, that. Depending. And also I think the price can be another factor. Meaning when we are having that one school, one style model means when it comes to suppliers, they are sort of making customized orders for each and every one of the schools. That means the prices of each school uniform uniforms can be more expensive. I remember when I was a high school student, my school uniform was priced somewhere around 200 to 300 yuan. Yeah, similar here. Yeah, for the host that. Sorry, how much was that? 200 to 300 yuan for the host. Would that be considered expensive or a good deal? Well, if you consider the quality and the demands when it comes to school uniforms, for kids, they outgrow basically the clothes every year. So you probably need to buy a new set of school uniforms every school year.

13:27It can be more expensive. But now in general, we're talking about, I think in some cases, 20 yuan for a shirt for the school uniform, that's very, very affordable. And the reason for them to be able to reduce on the price is really about the bulk of orders going to the supply. I mean, the whole city's been ordering through certain suppliers. So of course, the price can be lower. So the parents are in support of this. There was a quote from a parent that said, with one unified, blue and white uniform across the entire city, parents are spared decision fatigue and don't have to worry about their children's differing tastes and aesthetic demands. As a parent, Fei-Fei, would you agree with that? I would. I would. You know, I need to sort of order or purchase school uniform for my daughter pretty much every semester, making that decision. And they have like different options. They are of course the short-sleeved shirts. They're of course short-sleeved shirts with color or without it.

14:32And then it has cardigan. It has some sort of a suit style jacket. And they also come with wind blazer, sometimes a regular jacket. I mean, all the choices I need to make, I don't know which one is going to come into using what occasion and what the school wants. I'm always baffling about what kind of clothes I need to buy from them. I can feel the stress in your voice, actually even just talking about it. And here, sorry, this is another question I just thought of. As a parent, do you feel pressure to dress your kid up, even though the uniforms are all the same? Do you feel the pressure to dress them up as best you can? Like, oh, I'm going to get the blazer because that's maybe the most expensive one. And it's the nicest piece of the puzzle. And I'm not sure when they're going to wear this blazer, but at least they'll have it so they'll look really good. Is there pressure there, too? I don't have a pressure on that sense, but I do have the pressure of, I'm not sure what kind of clothes will come into use under what occasions.

15:34For example, you might as well get all of them. Yeah, just maybe in a more sort of formal occasions, maybe the blazer will come into use. I'm not sure. Maybe the spots where we'll be used more often than others. But when it comes to the different types of spots where there are long sleeves or short sleeves, they're in blue. There is the ones in white. I don't know which one to choose. I want to know this because when you put it to an open market, are there winners and losers here? It obviously creates competition. You would have different companies trying to compete with each other. But does anyone come out on top in this type of situation? Depending on which parties that voice we're hearing from. I think some schools just stand out and say, well, this is actually saving us a lot of troubles. For example, Xu Yonghong, a principal of Donghai Experimental Primary School in Xinjiang's

16:37Futian District, this person says, unified uniforms give parents peace of mind and also save schools from one more administrative burden, which is to make less decisions on the uniform design and stuff. Even also within a single family and older siblings, outgrown uniforms can actually go straight to a younger one, meaningfully cutting costs for a family. That is a huge advantage. Yeah. You wouldn't be able to do that before? Yeah, because different schools have these different styles. Even within the same school, sometimes they decide to change the design for the next new semester. And in that case, you can't just wear the old one. Yeah. Sometimes they even change the color. Of course, you can't. For example, the school uniform is in green, but in the past was red. Yeah. For our case, it's now purple for girls and gray for boys, but in the past is navy blue and white for everybody. So that means that those navy blue and white uniforms become useless and obsolete the minute

17:40they changed over to purple and gray? Exactly. Nobody wears it anymore. What do you do with that, by the way? I mean, do you hang on to it for old memories? I mean, I still have it, even until now. My mom has just the sportswear. My mom wear them. Oh, that's my mom. That's so cute. Okay, so that's from the school's point of view, less stress for them too. What about from the manufacturer's point of view? Well, I think they are also pretty psyched on this sense as well, because there's often some sighted stars saying that one uniform brand recorded roughly 8,000 online orders alongside 10,000 offline sales in one single month. And so, of course, they are seeing more orders. I mean, it's more straightforward. They have a clear design. They don't have to worry negotiating with the schools, for instance, about the design. And the color is also set. So they don't have to worry about that. All they need to worry about is basically the fabrics, the quality, the safety of the school uniform. I guess it would be much more easier in this sense.

18:42I also have this one actually outlet selling this kind of school uniforms in Shenzhen's bow undistric. Saying she's even seen private schools switching to this school uniforms, because I guess how standardized and easy convenient they are. This would make it quite nice, I guess, for the students. You know, going back to that point about how you might be treated differently if you go to a study room if you were wearing a school uniform from a quote, unquote, not great school. So even, you know, if you think about the attitude or the feelings of the students, even going out and walking down the street might be a stressful thing to do, if you know that's the reaction you're going to get. So that's one clear benefit to all of this. But the reason I asked if the school badges were still on the uniforms or not, and you said that they are not, is because this is a point of contention for some parents and

19:47maybe some schools too, removing individual school badges in favor of just that generic city wide look. Not everyone is in favor of that. Yeah, because like, for example, in Sam and some parents questioned whether a uniform without a school specific badge would make it harder to identify a student's school if they misbehave off campus or even work some schools also worried that without a badge or something, it could be harder to tell whether someone entering their campus was actually a student there. So it can be like a neighboring student or even a student who is older, but wearing the same uniform entering the school gate without people being able to tell if he or she is really from here. Is that happening though? I mean, is that are those legitimate? I understand misbehaving off campus harder to identify where they're from or whatever. But is that even a real concern?

20:48And also going on to other school campus, is that a real? I think can be rare cases in some, because when it comes to going to, why would you go to a different school? Even if you go to a different school, the school that you are not a part of. But you will still have students. I mean, students are actively trying to avoid school. I think so. I think so. I think so. And also what problems can they create, I guess, entering to a school of not themselves? Yeah. I guess what I was thinking was there might be a, I don't know, a school pride, an important thing when you go to school in Shenzhen or anywhere in China. Like if you're an elementary school or middle school or high school, having that school badge on, is it, do people wear it proudly? Are you, are you happy that you have that? I guess what also what I'm asking is the same question. Are you sad if it's gone? I'm just wondering if school pride will disappear at all. I don't think that is a big issue, at least among public schools in China, because think

21:54about students who would think of themselves highly because of the school names, because I'm from this certain, oh, maybe that's me, because I've never, I've never been into a school with more than a hundred years of history. So I don't see that name, the school names really carried that kind of weight, especially a mile, some 14 or 16 year old. I mean, what's matter more is about a look good and I can mingle with my friends. You know, I might not be able to fully agree with you on this, Fei-Fei, because in some high schools, especially high schools, because the students are nearly grown-ups between the fine line of teenagehood and adulthood where they're heading, the schools would try to teach them, this is the kind of like a cold principle of our school that's been inherited from generations before. Some schools with history, like in, for example, in Beijing, or in other cities, major cities,

22:57they may actually use that as an advantage to teach their kids. This is how our school was created this many years ago, and this is where our purpose landed. So being part of this school means that you're sort of being given the expectation of passing this torch on. So with all those kind of education, with all those kind of hope from the school, it's hard for the students not to consider themselves as someone, you know, I'm part of this kind of an environment. So with that idea in their mind, school uniform may mean something different, comparing with just like unified for everybody. It's like Harry Potter wanted to get a different door. Oh, yeah. And they have their own badges. And I'm thinking too of like, even in, now jumping to university age, but I went to St. Mary's University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. We have St. Mary's University and Del Hausy University. Right, they are neighbors. They are right next to each other.

23:58And then King's College at Journalism School right next to that. You walk downtown during the semester and you'll see students with SMU, St. Mary's University hoodies, and you'll see the students with Dow, D-A-L, Dow Hausy. You'll see those hoodies. And there's like a friendly rivalry between the two schools. So I guess that's kind of what I was thinking of. And also the fact that you hang on to these, they are keepsakes later in life. If your mom is wearing your old school uniforms, that would be bad, John, right? Yeah, but I don't think it's because of the school name because my high school at least didn't really have that lawn of a history. And nobody famous being graduated from that certain school. So that's why I don't see the value of carrying this kind of school name in school badges. But if you put into the university's context, I start to understand because when it comes to different names of universities, of course, even sometimes we're getting into some sort of friendly rivalry. Yeah, but they're not doing that with universities here.

24:59They're doing it with high schools, middle schools and elementary schools. Now, we've only talked about Xinjiang thus far. Let's talk about other places. Are other cities adopting this or are they not? Yeah, there are major cities around China that are adopting self-purchased systems when it comes to school uniforms. In Guangdong, Zhuhai and Hainen's High Court, these two cities, schools no longer require families to buy from designated suppliers like before. And also other provinces are shifting to one city, one uniform kind of policy too. For example, Zhengxi in eastern China and Liao Ning in north eastern China, they have all rode out province-wide reforms. So cities there, they can select designs and set quality standards and companies handle production and sales and parents purchase freely on the kind of like an open market afterwards. So these are all the changes we're making right now. And also in terms of policy, we see that under revised national regulation effective on

26:02July 1st, schools must consult parents' committees before requiring uniforms and families are explicitly free to decide how many items to buy. So here is where I think this is really helpful because schools are from then on, barred from using campus activities or grooming codes to force purchase among students and parents because previously, if there's a big event happening on campus, you are kind of expected to wear school uniforms as a way of remaining unity among the students, at least visually, while everybody's out there on the playground. And I remember when I was young, if you forget, the teacher will call your parents to deliver the school uniform to you. That was a big deal. But now, also I think that's very important. Once the design is chosen by the schools and parents, it must stay stable. And the purchase is generally organized only at the start of each three year academic

27:02face. So I think that's a very positive moving forward that design must remain stable. What does that mean? Because I've been through this with my daughter. She, her school uniform was designed in a certain way for her first year. And then on the, onward to the second year, the school suddenly decided to change its supplier and design. So we automatically, of course, need to buy new ones off from the start. So and also we can't pass the old school uniforms to the friends and other ones. So that can be kind of trouble on some level. But now, with the new national regulation, the schools cannot make that decision that easy. Speaking of passing from one student to another, is it Jungjo in Hanan? Yeah. There's a primary school there. This is amazing. They've run an 18 year recycled uniform program. They've reused more than 10,000 sets, 10,000 sets of uniforms from senior to junior students,

28:05passing them down from the older kids to the younger kids. I love that. Yeah. And thinking about how fast kids can outgrow their school uniforms and even every season, you need to buy them new shoes, new pens, new shirts. If they can be passed on generations after generations, that's a lot of, saves a lot of money. Yeah. And it's a thing that they do, like it becomes a thing, right? That the students do and you create bonds there. I'm sure with the student that you pass your uniform down to, it's more than just that, I would guess. You shine, you lived in the UK. I'm assuming that you've seen school uniforms walking around the streets a lot in English. Yeah. And ties were like the folded style of skirts for girls. Yeah. It's kind of cute. They have a similar situation to China. And in fact, the UK, they've been fighting this exact same battle for only a decade and they've only partially been successful.

29:06So the UK's competition and market authority, they wrote directly to 30,000 headteachers back in 2015, reminding them of their competition law obligations around exclusive uniform suppliers. And they had to follow up repeatedly since 2015 in 2019, 2021, 2022. This is what happened. England eventually passed statutory guidance discouraging exclusive supplier arrangements. But they've done research and they've found that nearly one in five English secondary schools still specify an exclusive uniform supplier. And they do this despite years of guidance and ministerial pressure. One minister publicly called the practice pernicious. That's a very Harry Potter sounding word too. What does it mean pernicious? This means something that is bad over a longer period of time, damaging.

30:08And they say that the crackdown in England hasn't fully landed yet. So basically trying to solve that same problem of the school forcing the parents to buy uniforms that may be too expensive and then they've got the deal with the supplier. Oh yeah. It's the same thing. I had this same sort of encounter in Australia when I went to their public school as well. We spent, I remember, $600,000,000 on a whole set of different school uniforms. $600,000,000,000. That's about $600,000,000,000,000. That's about 12,000 to 1,400,000. Oh good to see. Yes, that's right. Oh my goodness. Even the school, the school backs, you need to buy from designated suppliers. We also called like Uber to go to that supplier store and then place everything from hats, skirts, shorts, pants, shirts, jackets, down jackets, vests, two accessories.

31:13That's how my $600 plus Australian dollars was spent. I checked for many of this Australian family and they probably need to spend 1,200 to 1,800 Australian dollars every year on these school uniform purchases. I just did the math, this is of today, right now. $600,000,000 is $2,899,000. That's the more. That's how much I spent. And you have to do that. How often in Australia? Well, once a semester? Well, once my kid outgrow, they're her school uniforms, I need to make purchase of new ones. Stop eating! Because the school, the school will rely you to stay that uniformity throughout the whole school year, especially for example, for a Monday event, where the whole school stand together and sing. And that's when you are required where certain skirts and shirts. It's very expensive.

32:13So are we, you're in support of this? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it seems like it's good for everyone involved. Sure, school, you know, raw, raw, that might disappear a little bit, but you can figure that out in other ways, I think.