Season 5, Episode 9: Ryan Geho, Part 1

0:00Welcome to the Casual Shooters Podcast, your premier podcast for the Casual Shooter. I'm your host, David Riddle. I guess this week while he is a shooter as a very diverse background. He writes on the side, does some other stuff, does a bunch of shooting, went to a bunch of shooting schools. So we're going to cover this might be a long one or it could be a short one who knows, but there's a lot of information we're going to try to get to during this episode. He used to be a Virginian, but he is now transplanted to South Carolina where it seems like a lot of people are moving. So if you would, join me in welcoming to the show, Mr. Ryan Geo.

1:09How you doing, Ryan? I am well. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here. Oh, thank you. And I didn't, I purposely didn't ask how to pronounce your last name, did I pronounce it correctly? You did not, but you were close. It's Geo, just like how Geo, Geo, Geo, Geo, Geo, Geo, Geo, Geo, I just respond to it. I'm just used to it. Okay. I guess people like to add letters to your last name, it's only four letters long. Apparently so. I'm used to it. I hear worse from my wife on a daily basis. That was all good. Well, at least it's not Geo. I'm sure. I know. So. All right. So Ryan, if you would take a brief moment and introduce yourself. Yes. So my name is Ryan Geo. First of all, thanks for having me on this podcast. You've got a wide array of guests that are distinguished shooters. I just feel honored just to be even mentioned in the same name and be here.

2:10So thank you so much for having me. So my background goes way back. I started, I grew up in Southwestern Pennsylvania. I got into shooting pretty quickly because I became a pro officer and I said, hey, if I'm going to carry a gun professionally, I better damn well know how to use this thing in case fiber need to use it. So went to the instruction there and I it was, I was like, look, there has to be more to shooting than this because that there was basically, here's a five day class. Let's get you to call. I was like, this isn't going to work. So I started exploring schools on my own, started going to different schools, paying out of my own pocket, spending my weekends, going to different classes all over the eastern coast. Then eventually I got a job at the CIA while I was there, one of the things that I did it I was a part time instructor that turned into a full time job and I basically got paid to teach people how to shoot, got to go to shooting schools. It was great. It was like the best year and a half in my life went to a lot of schools, got to absorb a lot of knowledge. And then later on I kind of transitioned to another job in the agency, kind of went to

3:12the dark side. And then after that I transitioned to my last job where I was a special agent with US Department of State Diplomatic Security for almost 21 and a half years. Once again I got to go to a lot of different schools, did some things on my own, still paid for training. And then when I went to our tactical team which is called mobile security deployments, got afforded the opportunity to go to a lot more schools, got to go to mid south almost every year that was kind of part of our work up. And then I just retired in December of 2024 and I currently own a security consulting business right do executive protection for high level high net worth individuals, corporations and I also do like physical security surveys and things of that nature and I also teach firearms on the side. And I'm still shooting competitively but I've been grounded for the last couple of months because I'm basically getting over a knee replacement right now. So I'm kind of working through that right now. So it's kind of a little bit about my background and I'm not chill. Well, we will revisit that anything because I am there and I am, I am as recovered as

4:18I'm going to get and I am not recovered. Okay. I'm not a surge, not a surgical area, uh, 24, okay, full, full knee replacement, full knee replacement. Okay. But not a, not a surgeon error, it was, uh, mine was work related. So it took workers comp five weeks to get me into physical therapy. So I'm done. Yeah. I ended up getting medically retired because I have only 90 degree flexion in my knee. Oh my God. They didn't do the manipulation under anesthesia. That wasn't an option twice. Twice. And he said twice is my limit. He said, we'll do it twice and the first time he said it moved pretty well. He was able to break it free. He said it took some, it took some force, but he could break it free. But the, the anesthesiologist, the woman who did the block in my thigh, jacked that up. She jacked it up so bad that I ended up calling the hospital and having a conversation with

5:25the head of anesthesiology and I was basically told, well, she's, without, I don't think it was my situation. I think my situation was one of many, but that that person wasn't coming. Like he was re overhauling. He was new to the position and he was overhauling those people who were working there and she was not one of the ones who was going to continue working there. Oh my God. So yeah, I got, I got jacked up that I still the other night I felt pain in my thigh where she had jacked up my, it had have been a nerve issue. Yeah. She obviously had a major nerve. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, you're supposed to block the nerve, but I think, not only that, but I think she also did something to, I think when she, so they, you know, they, did you, did you get the block, okay, you know, they use ultrasound to guide the needle because they go in deep.

6:26Well, I think what happened with me was I, I, that time when I had the initial surgery, I didn't feel anything. The guy went in there, did what he needed to do. Man, it was fantastic. Like when I came out of surgery, they were like slow down. This isn't a race because they were like, they made me walk, they made me go up and downstairs and do some stuff before I could go home. And I was like, did it all and the nurse was like, whoa, slow down. This isn't a race. I'm like, I feel good. It's walking up here. They're like, no, you're on the ground. Yeah, it's like, wow, I feel great. But that time, dude, that is the most pain I've been in as an adult in my life. Like I had, like when I had the manipulation, when I, they send you directly to physical therapy from, you literally leave the surgical center and go to physical therapy. That's gotta be torture. Dude, it was all I could do not to break down in physical therapy.

7:27It was the hardest thing of my life that I've ever had to do. But we went back a second time. He said it was much harder to break it and that he had to go in and do some cleaning out. And then that was, he sent me to Richmond to another specialist. A couple months later, when we still couldn't get to do much and the guys like, look, I've looked at your x-rays, I've looked over all your surgical notes, surgically, there's nothing wrong with your knee. He said, this is just an unfortunate side effect. So what is your flexion right now 90 degrees with pain at times it feels like I have a torn meniscus. And I have no meniscus, so it's impossible. You know, it's just one of those things, it's like, and you don't know before, like I've been in, I've done a lot of stuff medically.

8:28And I've treated people with knee replacements and stuff, but until you go through it, you don't know what you don't know. And I didn't realize that I should have been pushing to be in physical therapy the next day or the day after. So I was doing what they were telling me to do. And, you know, I'd have like one or two home health visits a week. So I'm like, okay, I'm doing what they're supposed to be, you know, I'm doing the stuff on my own, I'm doing all this other stuff. Yeah, I didn't, didn't go well for me. So now I, yeah, it's weird, but it is what it is. Yeah, you almost have like a soft tissue block that is really impeding your knee from moving any further. Because obviously it's not a structural issue. So it's a soft tissue thing. Yeah. Yeah, that's soft. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, so it's, but I saw, you know, you posted a video of you doing some dead lifts. Yeah, already. So that's, that's awesome. Yeah, that's good. I'm at 13 weeks right now.

9:29So I'm at the point where, so a couple of weeks ago, my therapist had me running intervals again. And I was like, whoa, let's, wow. Yeah, he was, he was being very aggressive because he knows what I want to do. And he knows I want to give back the high level. And he's like, look, we really don't have a playbook for what you want to do. Because we're just kind of going on field. He's like, there's some general milestones, but he's like, for a knee replacement, most people just want to be able to walk again or play tennis. He's like, you want to be able to like run intervals, cut, run agility, run, like, I run a lot of 12 meter sprints for USPSA. He's like, there's really not a playbook. So he had me on the treadmill a couple of weeks ago. And I was like, timeout, man, after that first session, I went home and I was, I have a cold plunge every day. So I sat in my cold plunge for like 10 minutes. I was just hurting. So I was like, yeah, let's, let's wait till about 16 weeks. So we kind of came up with a game plan, but it's moving, it's progressing slower than I thought it would, but it's moving along. I'll probably be able to shoot my first match.

10:30Probably I'm guessing towards the end of March, beginning of April, but I still won't be 100%. I'll be probably 60% ish, because that's about the time frame. I'll get back to moving, really working on my movement. So I just shot my first USPSA match in three years. Oh my god. Yeah. So it's been, it's been quite, quite the, the path. Now, what is your, what is your degree of flexion right now? I'm sure they, they check it like, so they check it weekly or every visit. Yeah, pretty much weekly. So he just checked it this morning and I can get to 125 on my own. And if he pushes it, he can get it to like maybe 132, 133. But that's, that's pretty painful. That's, that's like where I'm like grabbing onto the table and like, cussing him as he's doing it. So, dude, that was me at 100 with, with double pain meds and the,

11:31and the physical therapist pushing and me, me moving, sliding away from her as much as I could, but she would use the wall behind me and push. Yeah, dude, it is, that's awesome though, that you can get to 125 on your own. Yeah, about 125. I'm, I'm hoping when I leave, I'm at like 130 on my own. We'll see. He's like, some people get to 135. He said, I had somebody get to 140. And I'm like, that's probably not realistic for a woman. And that's what he's, that's exactly what he said. He said, women usually get a flexion and they swell up. Usually. So yeah, well, you got to look too. I mean, this is, this is not a sexist comment. This is, you know, this is just a physiological comment as someone who's been in the medical field for 30 years. And that is, that the muscle density is, is different. Flexibility is automatically different. They are more flexible. Just the way it is. So that's why, as soon as you said, 140, I'm like, oh, that's a woman.

12:32So, you know, most men aren't getting there. Like, we'll never get there. No, I, before knee surgery, my right knee was between 116 and 119, depending on the day. So, and it was at that point, they say they typically don't like to replace knees unless you're 120 or below. Right. And I was right in that criteria. So, I would, I was hoping to get to 125. You know, 130, if I got to 130, I'd be ecstatic. Yeah, because that's normal. They say 125 to 135 is normal. Okay, if I can hit that middle number, 130, I would be ecstatic. Well, I'm nowhere near that. But that's, that's what my goal was. I'm like, no problem. I get back to work. I'll do everything I did before. This will be awesome. My knee will be great. And my knee is great. I know, like, my confidence level and my knee is not an issue, because I know that that thing is rock solid. But, you know, it's just that whole flexion thing.

13:35But that man, you are, I think you're way ahead. You're going, like, I kind of struggled. The nemesis for me has been swelling. And I, I'm still swell to this day. I still have, I still deal with swelling. So that has been my nemesis. And I'm a sweller. And that knee has had so much trauma inflicted on it. This is my tenth surgery on that knee. So that knee's been through the ringer. So that knee is pretty pissed off. So, and that's what everybody keeps saying. They're like, look, we've got a lot of trauma on that knee. So that's come to be expected. But yeah, it's, it's, it's not been easy, though. It's been a struggle. It's not been easy. This has been one of the, the more difficult surgeries I've had to overcome. But I just keep chipping away at it every week. But I'm finally getting to the point now where I'm starting to explore different things. Like yesterday, I did a agility ladder drills. I haven't done that yet. And I came out of that pretty well. So that's kind of my next step to, to getting back to running. Or interval running. I don't want to run again. There's a reason why I have this. So, and I have to always be cognizant of that.

14:36This is, this is your last ditch effort is this knee. So you need to take care of it. And do what you're supposed to do. So now, let me ask you this. Would you think about having a revision just to get more mobility? No, I think this point, no, I'm not. When he said he only does two, I was like, I'm fine with that. I'm done like we. In one year's time, I went to 135 physical therapy appointments. Oh my god. That drains your pocket book, man. Well, it's all workers. It's 100% covered. That's a lot of time and effort and just it was for four months. I could not drive because because I was on pain medication, going to physical therapy all the time. I couldn't drive. So I was at home for like four months afterward. Not able to do much of, I mean, I did a lot of podcasts because I was sitting around, not doing much else.

15:38I couldn't do anything else. And the way I worked for Prince William County, which I'm sure you're familiar with being from Northern Virginia, fire and rescue. So they're basically policy is that if you are on no duty, you do nothing. Like you don't work. You don't, I kept telling them I'm like, I had been assigned to our academy for two years, training paramedic students. I was like, I can do that stuff at home. Like, you know what I mean? But their policy is no duty, no duty. That's it. So I didn't, you know, I had nothing else to do, but physical therapy, work on my knee. Now they gave me one of the things I did. Here's how messed up everything was when they delivered. So they delivered this bicycle thing. I was like, what the hell is this? And he brings it in and he sets it up and he's got it like this big like 13 inch tablet on it. And the guy looks at me and goes, you already had your surgery? I'm like, yeah.

16:38And he goes, no, these are supposed to be delivered like five days before you have surgery. So you can get everything set up, be logged in, be ready to go. Oh my god, the next day I had the first session on that bike. And she's, it's an automatic system where it turns the pedals for you. It was a struggle to get my feet in the pedals because I, right, that's, that was a struggle for me for a while. Yeah. Yeah, it's probably already, it had probably been about three or four days. And then, oh, oh, I know what it was. No, no, no. Okay. So I had my surgery Tuesday for 60 hours. I had uncontrolled pain because workers comp had not approved my pain medication. Oh my god. So I had no pain medication at home. And when the nerve block wore off, I was fried. I was like, I went to the ER.

17:38My wife went through and she found some old medicine from a year earlier when I had a meniscus repair. And she's like, here, here's this. I'm like, I'll take it to you know, so I took, didn't touch it because it was extended release. So it didn't do squat. So I'm like in pain that Thursday evening, I finally got my first dose of pain medication. And I was on the bike and that thing started turning. So the pain medication hadn't really kicked in. And the wheel started turning and there's an emergency stop button. So I hit the emergency stop button and it jerked my leg back. Oh, that's the worst. I never got on that bike again. Like not getting on that bike again. Yeah, I was like traumatized. Literally traumatized. I was like, I'm not getting on that bike. That was that pain was. And someone who's trained paramedics and gone over the pain scale of zero to 10. I don't use one to 10 because there's zero.

18:41I never knew. And someone who's had two ankle reconstructive surgeries. So I've had both ankles and both knees operated on. All from like sports or work or whatever. And you know, I one time had pain that I had rated at 10 where I played football while I was in the Marine Corps, 60 days after having an ankle reconstruction. And I dove for a ball and all of a sudden I got, I had so much pain. I was blinded. I couldn't see. So I was on all fours on the grass. My mouth was open and it was like watering like a fire hose. It was just, it wasn't vomit. It was just saliva coming out of my mouth. So I was like, okay, that's a 10. That's a top of the scale. I had pain that went over top of that. So now when I after that, when I talk to paramedics, I'm like, there's no such thing as a 10 scale. Unless you equate it to a Richter scale where a 9.7 is 10 times greater than a 9.6,

19:50which is 10 times greater than a 9.5. I said, because I had pain that was far greater during this whole recovery process than that was. Yeah. I have not approved your pain medication before your surgery. Dude, that entire thing, excuse my friends, was an entire shit show from a workers comp standpoint. Yes. That is awful. Yeah, nobody and I'm still dealing with those people. Because once my block were off, that's when I was, look, this is a painful surgery. There's no doubt about it. I mean, I've seen them do this surgery online and it is not gentle. It's basically like being in a horrible car accident. And they're literally, the trauma they inflict to your knee is horrific. So they're selling bones off and pounding pieces in. So it's a gross motor skill surgery, but it's a very trauma. And it's a heavy trauma inflicted surgery. The nice thing about my surgery and the surgeon who I had to fight to go to this surgeon,

20:58who had treated me for my meniscus repair. He fixed that, but then they didn't want to, they didn't want me to go see him for my knee replacement. I'm like, this, this makes no sense. And it was, it's so weird how I know we're way off course, but I don't care. But the way our county worked is they are, they, they have their own like, it's not self-certified, their self-pay workers comp. So they hire a company to manage their workers comp. They don't, they don't like just have a workers comp company do it. So the workers comp company is telling me, yeah, he's on our list. My county's like, no, he's not. We removed him. So they contacted the workers comp company and said, no, he's not allowed to go see them. Oh, so it was all kind of craziness. So anyway, long story short, he actually uses lasers and all kinds of high tech equipment,

22:06where you have to go to a private hospital for, and they actually took a CT of my knee and X-rays. They created 3D model. So there's no chiseling and pounding and, and all of that. But it's still very traumatic, obviously, because you're removing, they still like, with those models, the machinery actually shaves off the least amount of bone necessary to attach the parts. I still have my knee cap and, and all of that. Yeah, you have the striker surgery, yes. Okay, yeah, yeah. So basically the computer does it ahead of time. So they, yeah, they take the CT scan and the computer actually, the image it out and it does it ahead of time. And then when they go in the OR, actually, the dirty little secret is, the rep actually does the surgery. So, so my wife is a, she's a nurse navigator for a joint replacement at a local hospital here. So she was the one that basically, she kind of walked me through the process.

23:07And I kind of had, I kind of had some VIP treatment a little bit. So, you know, due to my, my great wife. So, but yeah, she, the basically the rep does the surgery. So they basically walks. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah. All right. Well, it was nice when I went to that other doctor and Richmond that they referred me to to for a second opinion. It was like, yeah, he's like, typically, he's like, when people come see me and I look at their knee, their, their, you know, X-rays and everything else, he's like, I know where the problem is. He goes with your knee, he's like, if I were to open your knee up, it would, it's an exploratory exploratory procedure because like, I don't know what I'm looking for. I don't see anything. There's no, there's nothing structurally that's causing your issue. So then we were like, okay, it is all just soft tissue issue here. And I mean, he had me, I think three times tested to make sure I didn't have an infection going on

24:08or because of the, you know, he wanted to make sure I wasn't reacting to the metals or anything inside and everything of that came back. So the only thing we can go back to is it took five weeks to get into physical therapy and we were never able to reverse that. That's a long time. That is a very long time not to bend it, you know. Everybody, I say that too. They're like, their eyes get huge. I've said that to, I don't know how many nurses in their eyes get used to like, what? Yeah, they're like, that's incompetence. That's literally what everybody says. That's incompetence. Yes, it is. And so, but it's still dealing with the workers comp. So, but they end up, it's your body and they screwed your body up. And now you have to live with it unfortunately. That's the sucky point. So it is. Yes. So I think I think I may actually need to consult with somebody. I have a lawyer for workers comp, but I mean, you need to consult with somebody else dealing with incompetence. So, but a whole other story there.

25:10All right. So you said you grew up in Southwest PA. I feel like people when they say they grow up in PA, I always think Western. So like, everything west of Philadelphia one, you know, is west. And rural, you know, obviously you've got Pittsburgh and you've got some other towns and stuff in there. And I feel like everybody is a deer hunter from PA. They are for me. Yeah. So yeah, and like I knew a guy when I was at third recon battalion, we were, roommates and he was from and they did a bunch of coon hunting and we did mink stuff, all kinds of stuff. So I feel like people from PA do a lot of outdoor hunting in general. So that's what your background is. I was a fisherman growing up. I didn't hunt. My father was never a hunter. So I didn't hunt. I had friends who hunted. I had a ton of friends who hunted. But I just never had anybody to basically show me how to do it.

26:11So I mean, I wasn't, it's not that I didn't want to do it. I just, my family wasn't into it. So I was, I grew up a fisherman and I actually grew up way in southwestern Pennsylvania. I grew up right on the West Virginia border, a little town called Union Town. It's about 50 miles south of Pittsburgh. So it's about 30 miles north of the West Virginia border. And a county called Fayette County. Yeah, so I never, I always wanted to learn how to hunt, but it just never did it as a child. So, and I didn't grow up in a gun culture either. I had BB guns, slingshots, that kind of stuff, but just didn't have a gun in my house growing up until later on. Yep. Okay. You said, you said you were a parole officer. Okay. Okay. So, well, first off, before I go there, when did you find the shooting sports? Let me get that first. I did not find the shooting sports until the last five or six years. So I knew about them, but I, I didn't start competing until like around,

27:16I think it was around COVID actually. I think it was the year of COVID, which is really 2020. Yeah, I had a lot of time. So we'll come back to that later. But yeah, it was like 2020 is when I got into the shooting sports, but I knew they existed. I mean, I knew who Rob Latham was. I knew who Jerry Barnhart was way back from the day. I knew all these people were. I used to watch, what is the shooting show? What is the name of the individual? Top shot. No, it was, oh, it's an old shooting show. It was like, it's a half hour that used to come on. I used to watch that all the time. I think it, I don't even know what channel it came on. The individual who narrated it just passed away about a year or two ago. No, I don't know. I can't remember the guy's name, but anyways, I used to watch that show. So right before I became, I knew I was going to get into law enforcement. So I went out and bought my first hand gun. I think it was like a Ruger P85 or something like that.

28:19Learned, I mean, basically shot some, some bottles at a local range. If you wouldn't even call it a range, it was more like aashed up with just throwing bottles out there. So that's where I, basically, that was my first experience to shooting. I mean, I had a 22 rifle before that. I would just plank and things like that. But I was never exposed to any formal training. And like I said, my family wasn't into a gun culture. I was the first one that wanted to have a gun and own a gun. And then they just kind of transitioned all through my career and it kind of fell into place for me. So okay, that's where I was trying to decipher what was going on there. So did you? All right, when you knew you're going to get into law enforcement, you buy a P85, what made you decide to become a parole officer? So I went to college, I majored in administration of justice. So I knew I was, so I wanted, let's back up real quick. I wanted to go on the military right out of high school.

29:19I wanted to get a ranger contract and my father was an officer in the military. And he's like, look, just, he's like, just do me a favor. Go to college. I'll pay for like your first semester. If you like it, then whatever. He's like, but if you don't like it, then go to go down to the recruiter. I'll go down to the recruiter with you can do what you want. So I said, okay, I'll give college a shot. So I go to college. I realized you could drink beer, chase girls, and just hang out. And I was like, this is easy, man. Nobody's telling me what to do. Nobody's on my ass. I'm like, this is easy. I've never, I've always been an anti-authority type figure. I never responded to anybody telling me what to do. Like through high school, I didn't give a shit about anything because I would go to class, but it just showed up. I didn't care about. I'm like, please tell me how this is going to translate in the real world for me. Tell me how this geometry class is going to make me money when I'm 23 years old. I mean, maybe I could see the big picture back then, but I probably had ADHD as a child. But I just, I was never into school.

30:21And then I went to college. I was like, this is easy. This is like, what is not, what's not to like about this? I was like, oh, let's put this military thing off for a while. So I basically majored in administration of justice. Then it kind of went in that angle where I was like, okay, I think I'm going to transition, try to eventually transition into federal law enforcement, maybe the FBI or something like that. And that's kind of the power that way. So, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. So at what point did you make that transition then from parole officer or whatever you work the time to federal law enforcement? So I was a parole officer for about three and a half hours where I grew up in Fayette County, which, and honestly, it was probably the best job that I could have ever had right out of college because I learned to deal with straight up felons right from the decade. So I knew like everybody had a story. I mean, everybody had an angle. Everybody was always innocent. They were always innocent. They were always set up, right? So I knew how to deal with people.

31:21And I was dealing with murders, rapists, people that committed grand larceny, like I was dealing with these people every day. So I knew that job gave me the skills on how to handle dangerous people and how to basically figure out their angle and how to deal with them. That is the biggest takeaway from that job. It set me up for later in life. Whether I was overseas or on gang task force, domestically or whatever, that job really set me up. And then that's when I realized, I was like, look, at that time I was really big into martial arts. So I was real hard and heavy into martial arts. I would travel down to Pittsburgh like two, three nights a week. I was into G. Cundo, Filipino martial arts. I was into Moesai kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I would just take everything and absorb it. And at that time, I was like, look, if I'm going to carry a gun professionally, I better know how to use this damn thing because the training that they give us is just awful. It's basically five days. Okay, here's this beat, I don't know, 27 target or whatever it is.

32:24Just shoot holes in the center of it and get to qualifying five days and we'll be done. I was like, there's got to be more to this shooting thing than what they're telling us right here. So that's when I started going out. And these were the days right before the internet was a big thing. So you kind of had to call people and everything was worth a mouth. And I just started going to schools like John Farnham. I don't know if you're familiar with him. There was a training facility in West Virginia called Storm Mountain Training Center. I took a couple classes there. I traveled down to a facility in North Carolina called Trick or Time Inc. It was run by a guy by the name of Tom Bullins. I think at one point in time, he was nationally ranked USPSA shooter. He, I think he may have won USPSA one year actually. But I went to him a couple times and just started sticking training. And it just started getting better. And I was like, okay, I can see where this is going. And then that kind of became a hobby. And then just started shooting all the time. When you joined the federal law enforcement service, were you able to get into what you wanted to get into initially or did you just have to get in

33:24and then work your way to where you wanted to be? So I first joined the CIA as a police officer. So they have a police force that basically they have jurisdiction on their compound and just off their compound. So I did that initially. And it just turned out that I was in the right place at the right time. So I came on with them. And I knew that they had auxiliary positions like you could become a part-time defensive tactics instructor or you could become a part-time firearms instructor. And they also had a cadre. Back then, they weren't called GRS. They were called POC, protective operations cadre. Basically, they would they would take you TDI. If you went through the training and then you would go over seas and protect case officers and things like that. So they had all these things. And that's what I eventually wanted to get into. But 9-11 happens. And all of a sudden, we had a need for more instructors. And we actually lost some of our instructors to the air marshals because at that time, the air marshals was hiring everybody and the mother. So I just happened.

34:25I was already a part-time instructor. And they're like, hey, do you want to do this full time? And I'm like, sure. Do I want to be a police officer or go to the range and be on the range full time? I'm like, that's a no-brainer. So I trained, I taught it two of our facilities in Virginia, one in Northern Virginia and one in Southeastern Virginia. That would kind of TDI back and forth. And that's when I really got my first exposure to really, really formalized pistol training. I got the opportunity to go to a lot of good schools. I got the opportunity to attend Ron Avery's. I think it was a five-day handgun instructor class. Got to go to Jerry Barnhart. I went to all the H&K schools. What else did I get? I went to the Glock instructor and armors course. Got to go to a couple schools of Blackwater. So at the time, actually, a funny story is our facility, the agency's facility in Southeastern Virginia. I'm not going to say where it's at, but everybody knows where it's at. It's a worst kept secret in the world. When Blackwater was first built,

35:26they actually came up to our facility. And they looked at how our bunkhouse was right next to our range and they actually patterned that off of Blackwater. And they built Blackwater to look like our facility. It's actually a story a lot of people don't know about. But we had a, so back then, we were the one agency that actually kept Blackwater afloat before they basically came before they inked the deal with the State Department Whips contract. They were struggling back then. The CIA was one of the first agencies that actually basically bolstered them financially. And we kind of, that relationship went on for years. So we would always go to training down there and they would come up to us and vice versa. But I would basically go to a school for a week, come back, take what I learned, update lesson plans, and then teach whoever were the customers for the next couple of weeks, then go to another school. It was the greatest year and a half of my life. When I wasn't teaching, I was always shooting. So that's when I really developed my skills. It was always shooting. And there's nothing better than shooting free government ammo.

36:28No, no, absolutely right. When you have to stop doing that, that's when you realize how expensive it really is. Yes, that's me now. Yes. Yeah, I'm super well on speed down now, so. Oh, no. What would make you want to leave that position? So it's just a natural progression. I wanted to go do things overseas. And you know, at the time, I was still, I was still doing other things at that time that I really can't discuss. I just had that, I always wanted to get things out of my system and go overseas and, you know, serve my country and do whatever I had to do. And I just had to get those things out of my system. So, and then I eventually transitioned to the directorate of operations, which it was called. I don't even know what the name of it is now. I was in a specialized unit in the Counterterrorism Center. And I wanted to go overseas to do like counterterrorism operations. I did that for a year. Yeah, I did that for about a year. And so this is a funny story.

37:29So at the time, I had applied for State Department Diplomatic Security Service. And I never really thought anything about it. And then they call me. I was on the beach one day of my wife, her own vacation. I think I was at the other banks in the college. And I'm like, hey, this State Department Diplomatic Security. Would you like to take the job? And I was like, nah, I was like, they said, you could be on a registry for 18 months. And I said, look, just put me back on your registry. I'm just not interested right now. At that time, I thought I was going to spend my career with the agency. So they call me back like another four months later. And I was like, nah, just put me back on the registry. And then fast forward about a year later, it was like, I think it was like almost the 18th month where I was getting ready to expire from the registry. It just, the stars and the moons align for me. So it was my 30th, but I just turned 30. And I went to my boss and I walked into his office. And my boss was a hard charger. He was from a former J-Suck unit. And I go to him and I'm like, hey, when am I getting promoted? And his Zach words, he's like, how the hell would I know when you're getting promoted?

38:30He actually said something different. I won't repeat it on your podcast. So I was like, okay, Roger that. So I go back to my desk and my phone rings. And it's their like the State Department. Last and final offer. I was like, screw it, I'll take it. And I'd actually been talk so at the time, there was a DS agent who was detailed to the agency. And he was like, hey, look, I think your name's going to be recycled. He made some calls. And he told me how he spent most of his career overseas. And it was a good job. And how, you know, you'll learn all these skills. So I thought about it with my wife. And at the time, I was a GS-8 living in Washington, DC, Northern Virginia. I'm a short story. We were actually on vacation one year. It was like about a month or two before this. We stopped. I think we're at the Outer Bank. So when we came home, we stopped at a McDonald's. Probably somewhere south of Fredericksburg. And after I filled up my tank of gas, I had, I think, I looked at my wife. And I was like, yeah, I think we have about $3.89 left for the week to spend. I mean, we were living paycheck to paycheck.

39:30So, you know, they offered me a raise. I was like, okay, I'll take it. So, that's history. So I basically took the job. And I was there for almost 22 years. I just retired in December of 2024. Okay, it's a good, it's a good point right here to pause because I got so distracted with the whole knee conversation that we need to go back because I need to ask you a few opening podcast questions. What is your favorite movie? So that's probably a two tier to answer. So recently, I would say anything in the John Wick series. And look, I love Keanu Reeves, who doesn't love Keanu Reeves, but probably more so because of the Terran Tactical Guns. I've been with Terran since 2012. I've been dealing with him since 2012 before. People even know, they didn't even know who he was back then. So, once he introduced those guns, I think it was the John Wick two series.

40:33That just kind of did it for me. And Terran's always, people, I know people knock him online or whatever, but they've always, every time I call and I need something, they always take care of me. They're an awesome company. But probably going back to my childhood, I would say probably Roadhouse. I could, oh wow. He grew up in a bar just like that. So, yeah, we're talking Patrick Swayze Roadhouse. He grew up in a bar just like that. Man, there was barbrows every weekend. Man, there was always chairs flying, tables flying constantly. That was my childhood. That was a horrible kid. Matter of fact, remember the, what was that movie called? You ever see that movie called The Bronx Tale? I did not see that movie. No, so there's in that movie, there's a bunch of bikers to come into this mafia bar. And the owner, he's the head of the mafia in that part of the Bronx. And he's like, look, give him a beer and then they'll be gone.

41:33So, they come in there to drink beer and then they start throwing beer bottles. He's like, look, I told you, have one beer and leave. So, he walks up to the door and he locks the door and said, now he is can't leave. And they just basically a brawl and suit and they just beat the crap out of all these bikers. That happened at our bar one night. There was a bunch of pagans that came in and the owner were friends with. He's like, look, you have one beer and you leave and they started carrying off. And my friends and I were all big guys and I was friends with a lot of college football players. And he basically went up to the door. He locked the door and he's like, now he is can't leave. And we took him outside and just beat the shit out of him. We ended up throwing him in the dumpsters out back. So, you know, I've actually, I've not seen the movie, but I have seen that scene. Yes. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yes. Yeah, I love that. He was like dressed all nice too. Yeah. Yeah, my friend was a big Italian guy. He's like, now he is can't leave and he's locked the door. And they just, the look on their face was just like, you can hear a record just, the record stopped in the bar. So, discrete.

42:35Yeah, they work on intimidation. And when that doesn't work, it works well that night. Yeah. Okay. Now, and we'll get into the other stuff later. But you write and you do some stuff. So, I had to give you this question. What's your favorite book? Did you have to have read a book or two or a thousand? I would say the first Vince Flynn book, term limits. So, that's kind of where that genre started. Yeah. And I kind of, my writing style is very raw. And I kind of like it. I don't know if you read any of my stuff on the sub stack, but my style is very raw. It's very violent. It's very in your face. I probably, I would say that book kind of did it for me. That was kind of what started me on that path of that genre. And then obviously, he obviously passed away, which was unfortunate. But, you know, there's other people like Jack Carr, Mark Greeney, in that genre that kind of carried it forward.

43:38Now, there's a lot of authors in that genre now. But I would say that's probably my favorite book. I read that book on a deployment overseas. And I think I read it like two more times after that. We passed that book around during that deployment. People were like, oh my god, you got to read this. I always liked it because it was plausible. It was somewhat... Yes. I was a huge Vince Flynn fan. I think I read five or six of his books. And then he passed. And then I was... And right in the middle of a book. So, you know, they had another author come in that they contracted with, complete. And he's still writing Vince Flynn's books. But I have not picked up a Vince Flynn book. It's not the same. And unfortunately, there's a new writer that was just contracting. I can't... His name escapes me, but I haven't read any of his stuff. But I believe it was Kyle Mills was first contracted. And I tried to read his books. And I just... I couldn't do it. I was like, this is not even anywhere in the same... Same.

44:39Which is it? Vince Flynn is like one of... He was just gifted. The ability to write the way he wrote was just... Wow. And I mean, I was on his newsletter. I would look at, you know, his social media, all of it. And then when he got cancer and died, I was like, horrible, just a horrible death. Yeah, it was terrible. I actually... I'm friends with Mark Greeney. And I actually helped him with one of his books. It's called The Armored Series. It was called The Sentinel. And it was about a fictitious DS agent. And I kind of helped him with some of the technical stuff in that book. As far as the DS-centric stuff, State Department's centric stuff. I mean, I... He always said, hey, thank you. Thank you so much for helping me out. And I'm like, look, I just gave you a little bit of information. You're the one who wrote the book. I just gave you a little bit of information that you needed. But he's a phenomenal guy. And so, yeah, he... I think he just had a new book that came out last week.

45:41Hmm. I don't know who that is. You've heard me mention mental management on here before. Whether it was Steve Anderson, Megan Sullivan, or Don Grant. Well, now you can sign up online. Participate from the confines of your own home and get 10% off with Steve Anderson. Just go to AndersonShooting.com. Click on the training tab at the top. Select any online mental management class. UCSP10, that's CSP10 for your code and get 10% off the class. Right now, there's a special request session specifically for juniors in March. The dates of that class are March 9th, March 17th, and March 25th. A parent, both parents, the entire family, can all participate if you like from a single device.

46:41If you have a child in sports and want to help them with their mental game, now is your opportunity. In the infamous words of Steve Anderson, get to work. Have you, have you read any of David Morels stuff? He's the guy who wrote first blood. First blood. I read a book from him in Iraq. And I can't remember the name of it. It was about a former Delta operator. I can't think of the name. The name escapes me. It was a paperback that I had. Way back in the 80s, I read Brotherhood of the Rose. And it was about two orphans who grew up. And I want to say the end of that being part of Masad. I don't remember. It's been a long time. But there were three books in the series. And I ended up reading them all from him. And they were freaking amazing. I'm trying to think Chris and Saul.

47:45Yeah, I can't remember the name of it. Oh, raised by a mysterious CIA agent. That's what it was. But oh, so Brotherhood of the Rose is the first one. Then it's fraternity of the stone and then League of Night and Fog. Man, what an amazing freaking series of books. I have to check it out. That was a really, really good one. The author of it, I felt like, did a really good job. But initially it was Jack Carr, his first book. Because it was very raw, very dark. I can't, the name escapes me because I read so many books. It's the first book in his series. Yeah, I'll just look it up real quick. He basically had a list of people that he wanted to go down and basically terminate. And it was very raw, very dark. And that's kind of the way I write. I wonder if that was at the terminal list? Yes. Okay. Yes. And he said, yeah, yes.

48:47Yeah, the terminal list. There we go. That is a phenomenal book. He took a break. A lot of good books. He took a break from his main character. He just wrote a book about Vietnam, about Vietnam and McVeesog. I'm actually just, I just started reading that recently. Because I've been doing more writing than reading recently. And then I'm going to read Mark Greene's book. And then I'll probably, I think Jack Carr has another book coming down. I'm going to say the summer, late spring summer. It's basically his modern day interpretation of have gone well travel. So it's supposed to be pretty good, yeah. Okay. Man, when I was a teenager, a young teenager, I was all into the Mac Bolin series, the, the terminal, no, not Terminator. Executioner. That's what it was. Okay. And Mac Bolin, so he was a Vietnam veteran

49:48who ended up running into the mob somewhere and having a bad experience. So then his whole life revolved around killing mobsters. And he just book after book after book after book. He is just annihilating these people. I'm like, this is the greatest series of book. You know, I was like 13, 14 years old. I mean, this is fantastic. This is my hero. I want to grow up to be like him. So it was, you know, it was like Batman, but darker. It's crazy. So it's, yeah, it's pretty wild. And then recently I was like, oh, I used to be part of this, I don't know, book, email, thing. And one time I was, they send you an email every day with like books that are 99 cents or free or whatever. And one day it was like the first three books of the executioner on Amazon for free. And I was like, oh, download, read them all in like a day.

50:49You know, it's like, all right, this is good stuff. So many good books out there. Oh, so many not enough time. And it's unfortunate that, you know, kids and adults nowadays don't, don't read as much. They don't listen to audio books. They don't even do that. Right. Yeah, that's fine. All right, this should be an interesting answer. So back originally, the first two questions are part of the original list I had created. Then I'm going to throw in a couple here that are from the newer list. Okay. And I wanted to throw this one in because I think based on your background, your experiences, your reading and writing and all of that, if you could have dinner with anyone from history, who would it be? Oh, that's easy. George Washington. Oh, I love it. He's my hero, man. He is, there is a reason why he is the father, the undisputed father of our country. And if you just give me, if you just allow me a second,

51:52yes, there were some of the moments in his life that basically set him on the trajectory to doing the things for our country that he did. The first one was when he was 21, when he basically went on the diplomatic mission from, I think at the time it was Lieutenant Governor Dinwini, went on a diplomatic mission to Fort LaBuff, which is currently in Pennsylvania today, to basically tell the French to leave the Ohio Valley. And the French, you know, basically said, yeah, screw off, see you later. And on his way back, he falls into the Allegheny River, which was basically all icebergs at that point in time. He narrowly gets pulled out of the river by Christopher Guest. He was supposed to be dead back then at 21, gets pulled out. That kind of, that story kind of builds his legend as he goes later on through his life. Then fast forward two years during the French and Indian War, the battle Menonguehela, he was the aide to camp to General Braddock. I think it was a lieutenant, lieutenant colonel.

52:54He had two horses shot off from underneath of him. Four cannonball shots basically through his jacket and he was completely untouched. There was actually a story 15 years later when he was, he met a former, like, I think it was an Indian chief that was at that battle and said that he actually took 13 shots at Washington during that battle. And it was almost like he was protected by this just like outer being. And basically Washington writes about this all through his career. It's called Define Providence. And he really, like, if you read anything that George Washington has written all through his career, he basically makes that point on and on and on. And then let's fast forward to when he crosses the Delaware during the Revolutionary War, that should have never happened. They were three to four hours behind the timeline. He basically got his troops that night to cross the Delaware. They take Trenton. A lot of people don't know this too.

53:55James Monroe and Alexander Hamilton were involved in that battle. And James Monroe was actually wounded during that battle. But that's another thing. They get the Hessians to basically, basically, basically throw up the white flag that night. They get them to surrender. That basically saves the war cause at that point in time. And then let's fast forward to the Newtburg address, where our army at the time was about ready to basically go full mutiny because they rode back pay from Congress. And he basically stands up to the podium. And I'm just paraphrasing what he said. I can't remember the exact words. He said, I'm not of only if I've grown gray in the service to our country. But now he basically picks up the spectacle. And now I've gone blind as well. And there wasn't a dry eye in the room. And basically everybody dropped the mutiny at that point in time. And that kind of said him, I believe those four moments kind of set him on the trajectories to doing the things that he needed to do to build our great country at that point in time. And there was no other person that could have done that except for him.

54:56And he was made fun of and ridiculed back in those days by John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, because he wasn't formerly educated. But there's people in the history that just have that effector. And there was nobody else in that effector. I mean, look, James Madison wanted to be the president. So bad, he lied to him to get him to Philadelphia. It's true. Yeah. You know? So, and I love James Madison. He's only, I mean, his house is only 40 minutes from me. So I've been down there. So there are certain key people. But yeah, I mean, he didn't want the job. He didn't want to be there a second term either. You know, you said I'm not going to be a candidate of it. I would actually, my favorite historical place in the country is Mount Vernon. I would love to actually go there on our 250th just to be there on that day, just to look over the Potomac River. I love being on that back porch at Mount Vernon. So that is like my favorite place in the world. And when you go there, that, I mean, we had this discussion earlier before we were online.

55:56But that, that is what Virginia is about. And people have lost sight of that. And I feel like Virginia is so is gone now. And people just need to, it should come back to that. And that, that's what Virginia was built on. So 100%. Yes. Yep. Home of the presidents. I'm glad you took a moment to explain. I was very good. I'm glad I kept that quiet. I'm glad I added that question. All right. A little easier one or a little, I won't say easier, more personal. What's one food you'll never grow tired of? Oh, probably hamburger. Smash burger. Love it really. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a health food nut. But when I go out to eat, I like to just completely just slum it up, man. I cheat like twice a week. And when I cheat, I cheat. Just I have to do it for my, my mental well being. Because my wife keeps me on a regimen. My wife's, she's healthier than I am.

56:59And when I go out, I'm like, look, I want to cheat. I want something. I want fries. Smash burger wings, something like that. I never get tired of a good smash burger, man. Why smash burger over a regular burger? Either wore it doesn't really matter. Either wore it. Okay. Yeah. I'm actually not a fan of a smash burger. No, that's why I, and it's only because I don't like my burgers well done. I don't either. I like it like medium rare or medium. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm a, I'm a medium. I can, and I always say I like everything medium. Because if you under cook it, medium rare, I can eat it. And if you do a medium well, I can eat it. So the medium's a good middle. I just, like eating healthy all week and taking care of myself. It's just, I got to go out from my mental well being and have that cheat meal. Just to reset my, my psyche. So there you go. All right. The last one I have specifically for you. And this is what triggered me to go, oh, we need to pause.

58:01You said you've, you know, traveled of all the places you've been in your life, which was your favorite. Oh, that's kind of a loaded question. I'm going to give you an answer. And you're going to think that I'm absolutely crazy. But I would say a rack. Oh, yeah, I would not have guessed that. But please explain. I had a blast over there. Honestly, like, I was there in 2004. And those were the days of the Wild Wild West. And I felt like, I guess the reason why I was able to actually do our job in 2004. I mean, obviously, I mean, the risk factor was there because it was, that's when, that's when a rack, I would say, oh, 406, where the days where it was really bad. And it really started getting bad in like the fall of 04 when I was there. But I felt like that was when I was at the height of my profession of actually doing my job. So that's, that's why I would say that. But the nicest place, I mean, I've been to a lot of nice places. I've been to Thailand.

59:02I mean, I've been, I've been everywhere. I can't even name them. So I've probably been to like 40 or 50 different countries. So, but probably that, that experience of just going there and being in the middle of that is something that I always remember. And that's why I joined the government to go do those type of things that other people don't have the opportunity to do. So. Okay. Yep. Interesting. All right. Now, as a side note, when you said you first became a police officer for CIA, when you first joined, was there any conversation or was there any training based around the shootings that had occurred there in 93? So everything we had done at that point in time was because of the shootings, actually. So basically, that's why all of our training was so modernized, was because of the Miramau Kasi shooting at the main gate of CIA headquarters. So all the equipment we had was updated. We had MP5s. We had M4s already.

1:00:03We had Glock 17s. All of our, honestly, the training that I got at the agency was probably the best training that I ever got in the federal government. Our training staff was light years ahead of everybody else. Like, so they had already, they had already been, so they already developed a relationship with Ron Avery at the time who was kind of like on top of his game and they basically developed. They took everything that he taught and basically developed that into lesson plans and basically disseminated down to the lowest level. So we were already ahead of like stance, grip, all the fundamentals of marksmanship. We were probably 20 years ahead of our time. And a lot of our instructors had a competitive shooting background that also translated, which back then people would make fun of competitive shooting. Well, people still do make fun of competitive shooting until they actually go out and shoot a match and get humbled for the first time, but they actually, I always say you could take a great law enforcement shooter and you put him in a match and he'll get his lunch eaten and basically

1:01:06is lunch money stolen by a good sea class year. Oh, wow. Yep, say that. I stand by that statement. So, and that's just due to the lack of training basically. Yep. Okay. Yep. You could take the best law enforcement shooter at your agency and you put him in a match and he'll probably get destroyed by a good sea class shooter. So, or maybe a, maybe a bottom B class shooter. Probably a sea class shooter, I would say. I stand by that, yeah. You mentioned, now you said, Ron Avery, you mentioned Jerry Barnhart. You mentioned a lot of different names, a lot of different places that you've taken a class. What do you think is the, the one that resonated the most with you? I would say it was probably Ron Avery. Um, he was a very tough individual. He had a, he basically, the first day in his class he threw a binder at you and he said,

1:02:10no, this, he's like, I can ask you at any time to teach anything out of this book. And he honestly, he meant that. So, later that afternoon, we're in the classroom, we're getting ready to go back to the range and he picked this guy in the class. He said, come up and teach fundamentals and marksmanship. So, this guy comes up to the podium. It's, now my view is the first day of the class. The guy gets behind the podium and he's just stammering through it. And Ron, Ron sitting in the back of the class. He's like, he's just sitting there doing this the whole time. And he's like, man, man, man. And I was like, this guy's nuts. And then finally, he said, sit the F down. You have no F in idea what you're talking about. Sit, I thought this dude was going to cry, man. And he's like, well, F top, well, I'm a lot, could you imagine doing that nowadays? Doesn't fly today. But he's like, you're all effed up. And that's when we were like, all right, this guy means business. So, that night, we're all like, we're going to challenge. We're literally studying through this binder, like midnight. Like we're all like, and I was like, but honestly, he made you learn it.

1:03:14And his qualification to get his instructor's shirt was challenging. That was the most challenging school that I went through at that point in time. But his techniques, he had everything broken down to a science. Basically, he studied human kinesiology. And he had all these terms. And he had all these basically like, he broke things down to layman's terms that you could understand. And that really resonated with me. And I still use a lot of those techniques to this day. Now, things have evolved, right? Shooting all these evolves. And you go to different instructors and you're like, okay, you pick that one thing up from this guy. Or you pick something up from this guy. But I still use a lot of his techniques to this day. And I still think they're pretty relevant to this day. And he's another one God, God rest his soul. He passed several years ago. And yeah, he definitely made an impression on me. So, okay. I always say the best, the best instructors one who can maintain your attention the longest. Yes. That's the individual who's going to be able to get the most attention.

1:04:15I mean, the most information to you. Jerry Barnhart, great shooter, phenomenal shooter. Probably one of the best action shooters for time. Not very, not a very good instructor. Not a great instructor. Very able to relay that information. Every lay the information. And then a lot of times he's like, hey, Jerry, you have this written down anywhere. No, it's all in my brain. Well, Jerry, we're not asking you if it's your brain. We just need it for like a reference. No, he wouldn't, he just wouldn't want, he didn't want to write it down because he didn't want anybody taking his information and doing anything with it. So, but. Oh, wow. Great instructor, phenomenal to do it as class. But if you didn't get it, you didn't get it. And he just kept moving on. So, there's a lot of people that struggle with that because they're just not good shooters. And he didn't really carry. He just kept moving on. So, yeah. And that's the view. Go ahead, not good. There are a lot of schools out there that don't necessarily have the highest level shooters.

1:05:18But they give, they still give good information. Were you able to go to any of those where somebody at like an off brand school was like gave you a little bit of information that kind of helped the light bulb come on? Yeah, I mean, I would say the first person that really helped me was John Farnham. I was not a good shooter when I first started shooting. I had a tendency to to jerk the crap out of the trigger. Now, I mean, everybody jerks the trigger. I mean, because we're moving at such fast speeds. And now we learn that grip is really the thing. You really grip a vision or things you really need to concentrate on now. But as a beginning shooter, you really have to learn the fundamentals. And back then, I used to jerk the dog shit out of the trigger. And he would just smack me and he'd be like, just quit doing it. And finally, he was the one that got me over that. And I never really did it again after that. I mean, I still did it again, but not to that extent. And he got me over that. He got me over that, huh?

1:06:19And I, you know, he was one of the original guys back in the day that was out there doing this stuff. Back with like, I think it was Colonel Cooper. I mean, there was a bunch of people back in that day. But he was one of the original people. So he really got me over that, huh? Was there something in particular he said or was it just working with you over time? Working with me on that individual basis. And basically saying, hey, this is a mental thing. Like, you need to overcome this. This is a mental hurdle that you need to basically train your brain to get over. It's not a physical thing. It's a mental thing. And that's when I was like, okay, like I'm overthinking this whole thing. And that's when I just realized, okay, it's a mental thing. Let me just get over this hurdle. And he was right. I've actually got over it. And he pushed me to get over that hump. And I never forget that. So, but now- No point did- I'm too good. No, he wasn't. I was going to say at what point during all of these classes, did you learn about dry fire and the effectiveness of it?

1:07:20Back in the day, I don't think it was as important. Or it wasn't, it wasn't, there wasn't a lot of information on it. So Ron Avery was the one that really talked to us about dry fire. So did Jerry Barnhart. And then that's when he was like, look, I have a dry fire regimen that I do every day. And then he basically told us how he does his regimen. He was the first person that actually broke it down because 15, 20 years ago, it just wasn't talked about like it is now. I mean, now you can buy targets. You can buy dry fire of manuals. Those things didn't even exist back in the day. Nor did the internet really. So you kind of had to go out and seek that information. And he was the one that really said, look, you need to get on a dry fire program. He's like, because I basically build my skills in dry fire. And then I basically take him to the range, life fire. And I just basically just confirm them life fire. Because he's like, not everybody can afford to shoot as much as I can. So you really, that's why dry fire needs to be imperative. Because that's where you, it's your skill builder. That's where you learn your fundamentals.

1:08:21That's where you learn your draws. That's where you learn your reloads, et cetera, et cetera. That's where you learned how to do your transitions. And but nowadays, everybody knows. I mean, you can, you can seek information everywhere on dry fire. It just wasn't available back in the day. Steve Anderson has a whole podcast about it. He does. And I've read all books, read all the Ben Stegger's books. Yeah, there's so much information. And that's a thing like, you see these GMs today. They've been shooting for like two, three months. And they're already a GM. Because you know where to find the information, the most pertinent information. You can get good really quickly and really efficiently. If you know where to look for the information. I mean, look at Jay Beale and Joey Sowerland. They, you know, 90% of their skills all came right through. They just rapidly became good through dry fire. And then at the end, they started doing more live fire to, you know, get to where they needed to be. It's up. You still have, so I talked to, I had a,

1:09:23I had a conversation with Todd Jarrett one time. And I was like, hey, when you won, when you won your first national championship, how much were you shooting? And how much were you dry firing back then? And he told me, I remember I'm going to spit my water up. He said he was dry firing like four and a half hours a day. And he shut like 250,000 rounds that year. I don't even know how you shoot that much. Honestly, no, that's a lot of ammunition. I said, Todd, did your elbows, like, did you get ten initis? He said, nope, I was like, Todd, I wouldn't be able to lift my arms, man, you know. Well, that, that is literally a crazy, crazy number. I'm a, I'm a numbers guy. So I know that that's a crazy number. 250, divided by 365. That's 633 rounds a day, every single day. I would say probably some sessions were probably like two, 3,000 rounds, 4,000 rounds, whatever you know what I mean.

1:10:24Right. But then, you know, I mean, I've had people on who, who talk about, you know, they can't, you hear about Eric Grafell doing like 1200 in a day. But there are a lot of people that can't maintain that focus for that long. So Maria Gashina, who was 6th in the 19, I'm sorry, the 2017, almost at 1917, 2017, Ipsich World Championships, where she was only 40 points behind Ben, who won the title. You know, she's like, I can only shoot 250 to 300 rounds in a session, because then my focus starts to wander and my training doesn't as good. So, you know, I'm like trying to visualize how these other people are doing one in 2,000 rounds and maintaining focus. So, it's good training is hard to do. It is. And I think it comes down to everybody individually. And obviously, it comes down to a cost factor for people like you and I, because we're not sponsored.

1:11:30Yeah, if I, if I, if Superfell sent me, you know, 10,000 rounds a month, I mean, that's, that's a different story. But still, it comes down to a time factor because the range right shoot at is, is a good hour away. So, it takes me an hour to get there, an hour to get home, sometimes a sit and traffic getting back. So, it just comes down to a time factor, then I have other things going on in my life. You know, I have my business, I, you know, I do other things I write, I like to work out, if I spend time with my wife, yada, yada, yada, it's just the normal thing. So, it's, I guess if you're sponsored, and that's your full-time job, it's probably one thing, but for someone who just wants to get better and compete at a higher level in our sport, that's probably, yeah, that's not going to work for you. It's not going to work for your lifestyle. Probably spend more 20, yeah. At 20 cents a round, that's 50 grand. Yeah, can't afford that. Yeah. No. No. I would say in my life, like when I'm really training, I'm probably shooting five, six hundred rounds a week, maybe in the summer, like when I'm really

1:12:31at my peak, probably shooting maybe 250 per session, 300 per session, twice a week, dry firing, pretty much five, six days a week, maybe half hour at a time. I used to dry fire an hour, an hour and a half a day, and it just took out to be too much for me. And I think as you get a certain skill level, you just need to maintain it, you know, and then this becomes the problem. This is what, this is the big, the great eliminator in our sport. And once you learn how to overcome that mental piece, that unlocks a lot of things for you. So, and I feel like that's where I'm at now. It's finally, I'm finally okay with where I'm at mentally. And I think my mental game is way stronger than it was years ago. So I think if you look back, like yesterday, I put out the top 10 for open PCC and revolver for this decade. So I looked at all the nationals from 2020 to 2025 and and they're all ranked and they're based on, you know, where what their placement has

1:13:37been in each one and different stuff. But my point is that I've got all the divisions already done, which I'll be releasing three more today, three more tomorrow. And then the top 15 on Thursday from the entire decade so far from all the divisions, top 15. And if you look at the top 10 of each nationals, they're all high level shooters. Oh, absolutely. Two different nationals. I've talked to nils where he's like, I may have one, but I wasn't the best shooter out here. And it goes to say exactly what you're saying. The best shooter doesn't necessarily win nationals. It's the best competitor that was nationals. Yeah, because they're all, they pretty much all have the same skill level. Correct. It's just their mental game. And you know, they can all have different circumstances at that match or whatever. There could be illnesses involved. Got only knows what's going through their mind right in time. But if you like every time you look at

1:14:42a major match, you'll always see like eight class shooters or M class shooters kind of hang in for the first couple of days. And then they just kind of go by the wayside as the days go on because it's the mental thing. GMs can do it on demand. And they're just used to grinding it out mentally. And that's what separates them. That's what separates the the great guys from the good guys. So I'm going to step out on the limb here and I may get some hate mail for this one. But I think if you go back and look at individuals who have won a single national, I think things fell into alignment for them. It's true. I think the people that have won multiple are the ones who have figured it out and know how to compete at the highest level. That's true. I don't think you're any hate mail for that at all. I think that's that's extremely that's that's very pertinent to what we're talking about. That's the secret sauce. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And like I mean, we could we could go through all the different divisions and all the great shooters. But only those

1:15:47that have figured it out can get back to that top position more than once. Because it is it's all at that point. If you're winning a national championship, it's literally yes, it takes skill. But skill doesn't win that match. Sure. It is all mental. 100% of it is mental. That being said, that's one thing I want to put on my list this year is to take Daniel Horner's mental management class. I've done Anderson's before and it was great. I kind of unlocked a lot of doors for me, but I really want to do Daniel Horner's. He claims that he doesn't shoot a lot. That's what he claims. I mean, I'm sure he does, but he said I don't shoot as much as my competitors. There's my colleagues. But he said he really learned how to leverage this. And that's why he wins championships every year. And his is self-paced. I really want to take it. So that's not my to-do list. Interesting. Yeah. And it's not based. Yeah, you do it. It's a self-paced thing. It's not a live class like Anderson's is where I think Anderson's is over like two or three nights or whatever it

1:16:52is. But yeah, you just do it self-paced. And I want to say it's like $250 or something like that. But he's like, I will give you the keys just to succeed with all of these with all this material that I have in this class. And this is what I've been using for years to win championships. So that's that would be interesting because him being a former AMU shooter and having gone through some mental management training, they're obviously I wonder how I wonder how he's changed it. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like what tweaks has he made that he's found that has worked more dynamic shooting sports. It does work for him. Yeah, he's a beast. I mean, no, I don't know when the guy's gonna who's gonna unseed him. I mean, he's just every year. He's like a machine. So well, that's like Doug cana go. He's won what 29 Bianchi cup titles. It's like the dude wins every

1:17:54freaking year. It's like somebody's got to step up and beat that guy. It's like saying someone needs to step up and beat Eric Grafell. Someone's got to do it at some point. God bless you. Yeah. Yeah. Easier said than done. So yeah, I'm thinking about creating a hall of fame of shooters across different sports because they're all there's a lot of great ones. Rob Latham. I think he's the greatest American practical shooter of all time. He's got 29 USPSA. I've actually done a whole presentation on it. So I've got it put together and he's got he's got well, it'll end up being like an Instagram post type of thing where it's slide after slide after slide. But man, all the stuff that he's accomplished in you know, I through IDPA still challenge USPSA world title, you know, it's just wow, what is he not accomplished? And how many of our top warriors

1:18:57in this country has he taught? That's another thing. He was the guy back in the day that was going down the brag. They used to bring him in all the time. He was the top guy. So yeah. He's also the only American who's won a national title in five different decades. Five different decades. That's crazy. The dude was like 60 or almost 60 or at 60 and he won a title. The thing is too, a lot of people look at him and they're like the guy's not athletic. I beg to differ. He actually moves really well for a big guy. He does. He knows if you look at some of his older ones, he looks a little stiff, but he moves well. Now, I mean, obviously if you look at Todd Jared, like I used to, that guy mesmerizes me and that's what I miss about shooting up in Virginia in North Carolina. I used to try to squad with him as much as possible and Todd is one of those guys. It just doesn't age and his, his movement to this day is still so smooth and it just, he like, when I think of movement, I think of Todd. So Todd is a local guy. I mean, well,

1:20:01he lives in Richmond, but I mean, he shoots Radirksburg still quite frequently. And that dude, you would not guess that he is as old as he is by watching him shoot. He still moves great. He's a great dude too, man. I love that guy. There's a lot of history out there with those guys. Rob's the one guy would love to have on the show just to talk history of the sport. True. He knows he's been here from the beginning. Yes. I had a conversation with Todd about that and how, because Todd, if you get on the phone with Todd, he'll, he'll just keep talking. He won't stop. You know what I mean? And that's not a bad thing. I think I heard your one podcast with Todd and the information that was coming out of his mouth. I'm like, I don't even like it was just incredible. Yeah. So because he was basically back in the day, he was one of the people that developed a lot of like the red dot optics and I was like, oh my god, this guy's just a wealth of knowledge. So developed his own 38.

1:21:06I mean, you know, the 38 TJ. So, yeah. And but he was talking about how, you know, obviously there was no internet. There were no cell phones. So they're like calling each other on, you know, a hard line every day on a landline every day. Like, hey, what are you doing? What is that? You know, it's wow. It goes back to what you're saying. I mean, the amount of information that is available today, what could those guys have done? How good could they have been had they had all this information already at hand? You know, he was actually so something about Todd as well. He was back with Blackwater back when he first started. So kind of when I was, we kind of had a relationship, Todd was already like on their cadre back in the day. He was there from like the beginning. So with, I think it was Jell, Al Clark and Del McClellan, and they brought him in, and he was teaching classes there like back when they first opened back when they were basically

1:22:07just teaching like open enrollment classes and to law enforcement. So yeah, he was he was one of the original guys there. So that could only imagine how much of a beast he would have been 20 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And you took a you took a Sean Griffith class. I've had him on it. Sean is an awesome instructor of a phenomenal human being and a phenomenal instructor. I learned a lot from Sean, and I would actually like to take another one of his classes. Sean has the ability to break things down so everybody understands them like at a at a Lehman's level. And he's just he's very good at articulating information and he's a phenomenal shooter. And he, if you get him talking about shooting, he will geek out about it all day, which I love. I love to pick his brain. So yeah, that got a lot out of that class. So he's passionate. That's good. He's very passionate. He's a very good instructor. That's probably one of the better classes I've ever taken. And I told him that. Nice. Now here's when you started talking that

1:23:10this popped up in my head. Have you been to a school where you're like, I wasn't I wasn't ready for this. Like I need to take another a different class and then come back to this one. For me, some people talk at a very high level. And it's hard to understand until you've had something that will help you get closer to that level to be able to understand what they're talking about. I kind of always probably not for me because I've always geeked out about shooting. So I was always kind of like trying to learn what the latest information was and process it before I could even go to these schools. So when I would go to these schools, I'd be familiar. Like, for instance, I was it I've always been a cheater. I always believe in if you're not cheating, you're not trying. So before I went to Ron Avery, I bought his video tapes. I basically have VHS tapes. I had all three of them back then. I wore them out at Nazim. So when I went to Ron, I already kind of knew what he was I knew everything. I knew his system, but I just had to put it into practical application.

1:24:13So I've always been that type of person that goes above and beyond and really try to process information ahead of time and try to get ahead of the game. So I just I don't like to go into things. I'm a preparation type guy. Like if I give a presentation, I'm going to work on it for a week before I actually give it. That's just how I am. I feel like I learned best from getting prepared. So I've never really been into a situation where I just that's not me. I just I would feel weird if I went somewhere. If I go to a class and I don't perform, I get performance anxiety because I just demand myself to do things that I'm supposed to do that I know I can do. So I've never been in a situation where I'm really not really prepared. That's just that's not me. I actually get more anxiety when I'm not prepared. So yeah. Well, that's when you embarrass yourself. Yes, but some people don't give a shit. So that's just not me. I just feel like it's my reputation and I don't want to embarrass myself. And specifically, I'm going to pay good money. You know, I want to get something.

1:25:14Well, and I bring that up because my dad was the head coach of the Marine Corps rifle team at one point for several years. And he said something one time, I was young, much younger. You know, I might have been late teens or, you know, 20, 21. I don't know. It was very young. But he said, I can't teach basic marksmanship to people. And I was like, I didn't understand what he was talking about. And then when I was instructing at the sniper school, we would have him come up and teach wind reading. Because he was so good at wind reading when when they would do 600 and a thousand yard matches, he would get on the yard line, read the wind, then go back and tell his shooters to put on, you know, to left or to ride or whatever. And then when they came up to the line, those were those were just bullshit numbers. But the other competitors would be waiting

1:26:19to hear his wind calls. So then he was working off of bullshit numbers on the sites. So if he said, if he went back and told him to left at the beginning and then he gets up on the line and he says, give me two right. So basically there's no wind. You know, he's just re-zeroing them. But other people would listen in to see what he would call before they would make a shot. So he developed this whole strategy. I'm going to give you bullshit numbers at the beginning. So when we get up there, I'll give you the real number and then he'll calculate the other stuff and do the numbers. But he would so when we were teaching the sniper students, he would actually have people in different yardlines tossing smoke grenades and then explaining to the students what's happening and why and all of that. But that was when it struck me. Oh, he could not do that with someone who wasn't at that level because they would never understand what the hell he was talking about. That's funny.

1:27:23So that's why I asked that question. Did you ever get into a class where like, oh, my shooting knowledge level isn't high enough to be in that class because that person can't speak at that Sean Griffith level who can explain it to you in layman terms, right? Now I completely understand that and that's that is it. So when you get at a higher level and that's why I think Sean is so good because so Sean also teaches people every day. That's what he does for the living. That's a fellow trainer center. So he's used to speaking to that lowest common denominator and believe me, I've been to Fletsy several times. So it is a factory, right? It's just a right. Yes. One of them on this speed balance is get him through and call and get him the hell out of you. Right. So Sean can speak at that lowest common denominator and there's actually another you talk about instructors that are they're not known. There's another guy that I'm friends with who as a Fletsy instructor down here Dave White got a phenomenal instructor. You'll never hear his name, but the best instructor you will ever have anywhere. When I was with Diplomatic

1:28:28Security up at our facility in near Fort Pickett, we brought him up to teach our firearms instructors because we were transitioning to red dots and Dave, this guy Dave White basically wrote their curriculum at Fletsy for red dots and we brought him up and he brought all of his guns with every red dot that he had mounted to all of his blocks and we brought him up for a day and our instructors were just they're like this guy, where did you find this guy? They're like he's phenomenal and I was like, I told you, you'll never hear his name. You'll never, but he's just he's a phenomenal instructor because he's not out there. He's still working for the government. So there's some really good instructors out there, but he's and those are the best ones who can talk to every level of shooter. And you know, when you talked about Sean and Fletsy, I wasn't laughing because, oh, they're dumb shooters. No, it's because people who go through Fletsy, one guy could be an A-Class shooter. The other guy could have never held a pistol in his life. Yep. So that's why.

1:29:30And it's not only that is Sean would tell you this probably won't he maybe maybe on the DL, but a lot of the instructors there, they're just not very good. They're just not because they're not gun people. They're there because they basically want to firearms instructor class and they're an instructor. So now they're teaching people how to shoot and they're not teaching people properly how to shoot. And I could see where Sean would get frustrated or how any instructor could get frustrated being in that that type of environment. Yeah. So 100%. Yeah. That's the federal government for you at its finest. So that's the unfortunate side of federal government. Yes. Absolutely. And we and we know that there are certain people that, you know, I saw it in the military. I saw it in local county government. And I've seen it other places where you have a person who isn't they're underperforming. She's like, we're I need to put them somewhere. Where's the least place they're going to do damage. They think the least place they'll do damage.

1:30:35So they just slide them in a spot somewhere and then next you know that's where they're at. Yep. That's unfortunate. We were in diplomatic security. When I was so I ran basically our basic special agent training for two years or actually I'm sorry four years. I basically ran the whole portfolio and we were always the last to get anything. Budget, money, anything. And you would think that agencies would put training on a pedestal but it's just it's the opposite. We get nothing and we have to make do with everything we have. But yet they want these these people to perform once they graduate. They want them to be able to perform at a high level and I'm like that's we can't work miracles. You got to give us resources. And that's just high everywhere. So because when you graduate when you become a DS agent they don't they don't think that there's a difference between agents. They think everybody is mission capable. Everybody's at the same level which we know is not a reality. That's just that's setting people here. They basically in DS they basically throw you in the 12 feet deep section of the pool and they expect you to swim

1:31:40immediately and if you can't swim they're like okay we'll just move on to the next person and that's just how it works. You could literally be an agent then the next day you could find yourself overseas in a high threat area and they expect you to be able to do the job and perform but that's just not that's not realistically what actually happens but that's what they expect.