Season 5, Episode 12: Jay Beal, Part 2

0:00Yeah, absolutely, especially getting that first one on your belt, you know, knowing what it's like. You can look forward and have that memory and that experience to draw from. But I can't imagine that you would shame, I'm not going to say that. That's not the correct phraseology. I'm sure you're going to look at places where you can push it nationals, but at the same time, you know, you still have to qualify for the next world. Well, yeah, I mean, that's the other thing is you can't, yeah, I mean, qualifying for the team is not a given ever. Right. Right. There's so many people that are really, really good and that are becoming very, very good.

1:05But at the same time, I'm not, I'm okay risking that spot. Even if I go to World Shoot as an individual to, you know, get more practice changing who I am, instead of, you know, playing it safe, because I can play it safe and get a slot and continue to finish in the top 10 at nationals or whatever. But I'm not interested in that in that. I'm interested in winning and those are two different things. They are. So does that translate into then being more aggressive to win a national championship? Oh, for sure. Yeah. Okay. You know, to put myself in the mix more and figuring out what that's like, it's not like I'm going to go and intentionally, you know, bomb a nationals and cheer badly. But, you know, in the right places, using more of my skill that I have to get a better

2:07score instead of, you know, waiting for other people to make mistakes, which works really well at big matches. I mean, that at nationals at World Shoot, it works pretty well. Unless you're competing against people that are doing the same thing that are better than you. Yeah. But I mean, how many of there aren't that many percentage wise that, you know, fit that bill because 99% of those people are not at that level, even at World Shoot. Right. There's enough of them that you'll get beat if, or I'll get beat if I play it safe. You know, like it's not, this is not production optics in 2022. This is, this is production optics in 2025 and beyond when it's a different, a different game. You can't win doing the same things that you did to win back then.

3:13There's too many people who are too good. And that, and that, that division being so freaking popular, it's just going to get more crowded at the top. Yeah. And it's a little bit divided now with limited optics, but we still get, you know, factory gun nationals, which is good, which I hope everybody will just this year at least shoot carry optics and nobody will shoot production. So it'll be good. It'll be good. We'll still call it carry optics nationals because that's what it is. And it's probably, probably going to be a very large percentage carry optics, guarantee it for sure. I was just looking at, I did a, I posted some videos on the sub-stack earlier and I was going over just the area matches and still, you know, area one this year has 175 carry optics shooters so far, 141 at area five, 171 at area seven,

4:20your neck of the woods. Yeah. A lot of guys shooting optics. Yeah. And 117, so it is still the number one division in all of those area matches. And what's number two, limited optics. And then there's a massive gap from there to open, even PCC, all of these, all four of those J have between 20 and 30 iron sided shooters. And that is it. That's right. This is an optic firearm, everything. It is crazy. Yeah. I mean, it's not surprising when you see it at locals where there's like one person with iron. Shooting the irons. Yep. Yeah. It's nuts. Pretty wild. It is. So yeah, it's just going to, that, and I saw posts over the last few days where people were like, my goal is, you know, World Shoot team in 2029, I'm like, man, this is, that's

5:23a hard goal because the competition is going to be so hard. And there are, there are people like you that have reached that upper pinnacle. Maybe you haven't won a national championship yet, but you've been at the cusp of that, you know, a few points here and there that could have changed the order of things. So they have to surpass that. So that's a, I was in my mind. I'm like, man, that's a tough goal right there. Yeah, it is. I mean, it is. And it still is for any of the guys who made the team prior, you know, because it, nothing's guaranteed, you know, you're, you're dealing with a lot of variables. And so, in qualification starts next year, you know, we don't, we don't have a year off of qualification, so everything counts. So it's exciting. I mean, I like it. And again, it's, you know, I, I want the best teams to be selected.

6:25And if I'm not on that team, then, then so be it. But I feel less pressure in the sense to qualify for a team and, and more pressure to get more of my potential in competition out. Okay. Is that mean you're going to shoot more local matches, more level two matches? What does that mean realistically? Realistically, it means that I shoot some more local matches. Okay. Uh, I wish it was, well, I mean, I, I wish I, I'm happy with, with how many matches I go to, but it would be cool if it could be shoot more area matches. But it's not going to be like that. I'll shoot one area match and a couple of state matches and hopefully a bunch of locals. In the past, if you always show to look, shot a local just, have you used it for training

7:29or do you use it as match prep? I mean, I've tried to use it as training, but again, like changing who you are is harder than like thinking your way through it. It's a fundamental change. Yeah, you have to, it's very uncomfortable. And so, you know, giving myself more exposure to that at local matches is what I need to do. And I've been doing that this winter at a few matches. And the first one, it was like, you know, it was not happening. And then the, the next one, it was getting a little bit more like, I'm feeling a little bit more free to shoot and make mistakes. But again, you know, you always have pressure to win locals as well. And so, you know, playing games with friends of mine as far as, you know, they're, you know, being like, hopefully for myself shooting recklessly in a good way enough that they're

8:36at risk for beating me and in the same, in the same way, helping them out so that they're at risk for beating me or whatever it is. You know, playing games like that, adding more pressure and at the same time, still getting what you need to out of the matches as far as training. How much harder do you think it is for you? Because I always feel like you're kind of isolated up there, like where I live, where I live, there are a bunch of GMs. You've got Todd Jarrett down here, you know, if I travel three hours south, you've got all of North Carolina, all those guys, great group there. Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of three hours in any direction and you've got great shooters where I feel like you're way more isolated. How much harder do you think it is for you to grow as a shooter without all those other people pushing you and to be able to talk to? I think it's, I mean, I've made the best of it as far as my circumstance, but I know

9:40that having a group of guys that are really, really competitive would be super helpful. Like a good friend of mine, Kyle Narcum, and even Dylan Pullen, those guys shoot together at locals all the time and you know, talking to them like that helps a lot for their development and so when I get to shoot with them or, I don't know, it's spaced out enough where I feel a little bit like I wish I had that, you know, but at the same time, I don't know, I get to have a little more freedom like I don't always have to go to a match and be thinking about other people in that way, so I don't know. Do you ever find it hard to stay motivated to keep improving?

10:40This is a lot more work now, Jay. You know what I mean? Like when you're at, when you're a B class at 65%, it's a hell of a lot easier to get to 75 than it is for you to go from 99 to 100. Yeah, so I have to find, I mean, this is where it is, kind of been what I've been talking about where I have to fundamentally change who I am as far as how I shoot matches and doing that is very difficult. I think I'm in plenty motivated to do it, but okay, as long as I'm directing that motivation in the right area, which I think I'm way more on track than I was two years ago to finding that direction. Well, I say that too, because you don't work in the shooting business now very quite intentionally. Okay, but you know, there are a lot of people, Mason, when I talked to Mason last, it seems

11:41like he has learned that point where he now knows where he can take risks, where he doesn't. You know what I mean? Like he has learned a lot, but he also he shoots with Phil, he trains people at Sig Academy. So he does a lot of stuff to help himself in that realm. You know what I mean? Yeah. Whereas you, when you're not shooting, your focus is other stuff. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So it's also more work in that regard. So that's why I'm wondering like, so you haven't lost any of the desire to do all of that additional work, because it's a lot of work to do what you're doing. I mean, I think it fluctuates. I'm careful to take time away from seriously thinking about it all the time, and you know, giving myself time in the winter to think about other things and direct my attention.

12:43So then I can come back to it really strong. Okay. How much time do you take off during the winter? I mean, I still dry fire every day, but, but I'm not fire firing right now. Are you dry firing to improve or dry firing to maintain? I mean, dry fire to improve certain, certain skills and then to maintain others, okay. But the volume is way down on dry fire, and on life, I obviously, right. But when things roll around, I mean, I think that not being around it and not being amidst a bunch of people shooting local matches all the time gives me time also to focus on like that. I talked a little bit earlier about the like practicing rehearsing stages and matches and things like that, because I can't go to a match every weekend.

13:45And so I watch other people's match video and then memorize their matches and then shoot there. Really? And I've been doing that for, I don't know, five, six years. And other matches I care about, like I memorized matches from the World Shoot range. And then you shoot them in your mind. So I, you know, I get exposure in that way. It's actually really cool. Okay. I enjoy it. I'm pulling up the, I was trying to remember the exact date. So factory gun is in mid September this year, not June like it has been. Thank God. That's great. You actually have some warm weather training you can do before factory gun nationals. How is that going to affect your training this? Are you going to wait a little bit longer before you really start getting into it? Yeah.

14:45I mean, most every year I've been at this point plowing out the range and, you know, setting up stuff and shooting. And I'm going to wait until the snow is gone to do that. Okay. And, you know, wait, wait for some good weather. And then I can, I think that will help to with. Like that motivation piece and that, that focus. Just because the timeline is a little bit more normal or feels more normal to me. Okay. With the nationals in a proper timing of the year. Yeah. Yeah, they should, they should never, nothing should be in June. It shouldn't be. No. It's just not enough time for the northern states to. There was optics nationals in what 2018 or 17 in March in Florida. Yeah, that should never happen. That was really weird. I was. Yeah, that's right when I started, but. Okay. That was, I didn't get into it until 2018.

15:47So that's almost before my time. But yeah, I mean, the, I like this, I like that they're doing. I think race guns is still going to be hot August 19th in Ohio. That's going to be a warm one. Yeah. And then I'm sure Utah in mid September is probably going to be. Slightly warm as well. Yeah, that'll be good. And then we got IPC nationals right after that. A couple of weeks later. Yep. It's three weeks. Yeah, two to three weeks later. Are you going to do that one? Mm-hmm. Okay. Signed up. It's a qualification match. So I have to go. It is. Yeah, I mean, well, you have what, 25, 26, 27 and 28, right? Or no, 26, 27, 27, 28, so six nationals. So yeah, you've got to do all of them. I mean, yeah, I guess you, what is it? You don't have to get to the six. Yeah, so you have to do three. I could be wrong about that. You have to do three or four out of six.

16:49But again, like you're out of slight disadvantage if you don't do them all. You are. Because you miss out on, on a potential good score. That's why that's why I was saying. I think 20, 20, 25 was a world shoot year. But I think those scores should have counted for 20, 29. And I say that because keep the same number that you need. Let's say it's four. Let's say it's four out of six right now. Keep the minimum of four. But now you've opened it up to eight opportunities. So if you're a female and you're pregnant and you miss a year, no big deal. You still have an extra two matches in a year. Or, you know, if you, when your wife was having children, maybe like, like Jay, like Jay Slater, you know, his wife just had a child not too long ago. You know, it would give him time to maybe miss a match or two

17:52and it doesn't hurt you. No, I get, I get that as well. I, I like the idea of forcing consistency to be a factor. Whereas if you are choosing best three out of four matches, then you have to perform well three out of four. And if you're choosing, you know, three out of six, then you only have to perform well half the time. I mean, I guess I'm a little bit biased on it just because I don't want to be forced to travel to two nationals every single year. You know, it's financially, it's more, it's more demand on the family and travel and things like that. So if, if qualification is condensed, then I kind of like that. You know, I feel like the year before World Shoot, they're like, there's, here's three matches this year. They're early in the year. We're going to select teams from these three matches.

18:54I think that that would select the most hot talent to fill the teams right there, where you're not filling teams four years prior to a World Shoot. Right. Yeah, I see what you're saying. But, but also I, you know, I see your points as far as that goes to. I don't think there's a perfect answer. Yeah, I think there's benefits and, and, you know, present cons for both. Yeah. So. But I, I get your point because last year, you know, they were, they were taking scores way back to like 2021 or whatever. For PCC for sure. I think. Yeah. It was PCC. So. Yeah. It is nicer to have it more condensed closer to the World Shoot because you're going to get a better representation. Yeah. So. At least for recent talent, you know, like people come up in the sport in two years. I mean, if you look at Adam,

19:54Adam Graham. Yeah. And, you know, people like that come up in 2027, 2028. They miss out on half the qualifiers. You know, they're just not going to have an opportunity to qualify. They may be the one of the best shooters in the, in the country and they, they can't be on the team. Yeah. I mean, if you keep the same number of qualifiers, though. So like, let's say it's three out of six. If you add two more matches, it's still three out of eight. So if they, if they crush 2028, both Ipsick Nationals. And let's say they went Ipsick Nationals and Nationals. And then, you know, they were top 10 the year before. So those are their three highest ones. They might actually bump out somebody from before, you know. Sure. Yeah. But, but again, I, I still understand and get your point.

20:54So. Yeah. I, yeah. Yeah. I, I'm, I don't envy the people that are coming up with the qualification process. Right. Yeah. And again, like, I'll go to the matches. You know, like I, I even said when. I was, you know, telling a friend like, oh, I'm not signing up for Ipsick Nationals. And then, you know, a couple of minutes later, saying I signed up. Boy, you know, just, just is like, well, I guess I got to go. Even though you can miss a couple of them and still be fine. Right. Yeah. You can still shoot enough to get points. But, and that goes back to your point. Then you have to be consistent if you're not going to all of them because. Yeah, if you're not going to all of them, you have none to throw away. Yeah. It does. Yeah. I think it would, I feel like it would make you a slightly more conservative shooter. Because you're not going to be is, you know, you want that. High up finish, but you don't want to make a mistake.

21:56So grave that it drops you far enough in the standings that. You're now fifth. For the two. Exactly. You know, and now you're a fill in instead of a primary member. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a whole, I don't know, it's a whole nother game, which I kind of like it. And to play those qualification games. It's kind of like a classifier system. It is on. Yeah. Absolutely. You've heard me mention mental management on here before, whether it was Steve Anderson, Megan Sullivan, or Don Grant. Well, now you can sign up online. Participate from the confines of your own home and get 10% off with Steve Anderson. Just go to Anderson shooting dot com, click on the training tab at the top. Select any online mental management class and use code CSP 10. That's CSP one zero for 10% off the cost of the class.

23:02And the infamous words of Steve Anderson get to work. So now what did, what did you think about? We, you spoke about it briefly that you like the top 10 stuff. Yeah. I, I'm going to run that thing all the way through the end of the decade and come up with like shooters of the decade of each division. Yeah. I think it's cool. I, I think it's fun for people who are fans of the sport, which includes me. And you get a really cool picture. Like, you know, some. It's a name recognition thing where you're expecting certain names to be there. And maybe you're surprised by some. And it's a fun thing to follow. And like you can come up with the same rankings. I mean, we did on the hip actor podcast years ago where you come up with like, they're doing power rankings where it's just arbitrary, but you're, you're pulling names and putting,

24:04putting them on a top 10 list. It's interesting. It's fun. It's entertaining. Right. Yeah, I'm trying to use, I'm just trying to use match performance at nationals. So, but it is, it is interesting because I expected a couple of names to show up. And I was like, why aren't they here? And then you go back and like, oh, they actually didn't participate as much as I thought they did. Yeah, I mean, you look at carry optics and Jacob's name isn't on there because Jacob didn't start to shoot carry optics until 23, 24, 23 and 24, I think. Yeah. I don't think he shot it in 22. And he didn't shoot it in 25. Yeah. So he's got two matches in there. Yeah. And so in that sense, it rewards consistency for a division. But again, you know, it's, it's rewarding for a prize that doesn't matter. But that's why it's fun. You know, like people are upset that certain people aren't on a list, but it's like for what reason.

25:06Right. And you're not giving out prize money. So I am not, my name is not Hunter Constantine. Maybe I can get belt to support it. Maybe you can't. Yeah. We'll have a top. I used to do the shooter of the year thing. Maybe I should bring that back and talk to Hunter. That'll drive up a little competition. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think it's good. I think it's obviously helps a ton. Oh, yeah. Gets people emotional. It's great. That is funny. Yeah, it gets people really worked out. I want to throw out something else to you because when I started doing this, I am now a proponent of doing away with stage points. I was stage points. Yeah. Completely doing away with it.

26:07Okay. So how would that work? So unless the, I would, well, what it would work is you still get your hit factor and all of that. But now your match standing is your overall hit factor for the entire match. Okay. So I imagine it shakes out relatively similar. It does accept. It actually rewards people who are more consistent because if you have, if you're one of those people that has wild swings up and down, then you can actually drop further in the standings on one of those. You know, if you're one of those people who's always swinging for the fence on every stage, well, you might be, you know, second, third, fifth, first, second, third, 79th, 147th, third, two, 15th. The stage points actually hurts those people more.

27:09Yeah. We're interesting to run some tests like that. I mean, I'm sure you can simulate them. Yeah. Well, looking at all of these. I mean, I have a spreadsheet that's 20 tabs big because they're all the nationals. And when I go in, I actually looked at them by hit factor. And it's like, whoa, some of these people actually had a higher hit factor than people above them. But yet they, you know, were further down in the rankings because of stage points. It's interesting. Yeah. There were a few of them like that. And I was like, and that's where, you know, doing these things, I'm learning more about hit factor than I knew based on what I'm seeing. Actually, total overall hit factor. I would say in general, reward speed.

28:12But when the current way that we're doing it based on stage points, rewards points. Yeah. I don't know. It's. It could be interesting to run scenarios. It would be. I think I'm going to do that this year for each nationals, since there aren't that many. And maybe I'll look at area matches where there might be more fluctuation between shooters. At least in the, at least in the top 10 or 15, there's going to be much more fluctuation because you don't get, you know, the top 10 at nationals, those guys are all solid, the top 15, all very solid shooters. So there's typically less dispersion between them. As you go on area match, you don't get that many high shooters at an area match. Yeah, I would one, I wonder how it would separate people.

29:12Like if this separation becomes smaller. And so if it makes things too tight, then it becomes uninteresting. You know, if it compresses everybody at the top. Right. And it would, because then you, you end up with people winning who are not the best. And the only, I have seen so far everything I've run, it doesn't change who wins a match. Okay. And it's, there's only a couple of people like maybe two people in every top 10 where there was one person though, I'd have to go back and look, I don't remember now. But there was like, instead of being eighth, they would have been fifth. So I was like, whoa, that one really got me. I was like, damn, that's a big difference. The other thing is minor. So doing all of this, I started running into the problem. At the very beginning of the 2020s, everybody unlimited was major.

30:15Everybody in single stack was major. By the time you get to 2025, I think it was single stack. It had 60% of people shooting minor. So now I'm like, okay, now I can't compare apples to oranges. So I had to convert all of the major scores to minor scoring. And then compare. And then I saw people that really, there were some real interesting fluctuations there. That was really wild. It's like, ah, some of these people, and now I firmly believe that major scoring reward slop. And I've got numbers to prove it. Yeah, I could believe it. 100% slop. I mean, I would rather have major scoring. Oh, sure. Yeah. 100%. Because you can be a little sloppy.

31:16You can be a lot sloppy. And so then it be, I don't know, it's interesting then too, because you can, if you can be a lot sloppy, then that you can go faster. Yes. And if you can go faster, then yeah, but you, you push the hit factors higher than obviously, we see that in major, major power factor divisions. The, the one exception is Christian Tyler. Sure. Because when I convert his, like he's a 9.3 and major and he's a 9.03 and minor. So he's still very, and actually the gap with him grows when you convert all their scores to minor. So who is very interesting? Which also explains why he is doing so well in the other divisions that are minor, because he shoots the same way. You know, minor divisions, yes, suit him very well.

32:17Yeah. So it doesn't matter to him whether he's shooting minor or major. He's still shooting like an 82 to 85% alpha rate. And, yeah. And fast. I think things get interesting when you have multiple people, which you don't right now in a lot of the divisions at his level. And then that changes the behavior of those people. And yes, you know, he, you then end up doing things that, that take on a little bit more risk, a little more slop happens, and then you get different things. So it's interesting looking at his points over the past, you know, a few years when he is leading matches by a lot, and then not needing to do anything to stay in the match. And then it affects other people who are doing things to stay in the match. Right. That then changes what they're doing.

33:17To, you know, to put themselves in a position of contention when they weren't before. And that requires more risk. Which then drops, maybe drops your, your alpha count. Yep. And yeah, I don't know. It's everything is subjective to the moment. And, uh, in the day and the stage. Yes. Everything. Because every match is different. Yeah. Which is why I like this game. Every stage is different, even if it's a classifier set up in two different areas. Like everything's a little bit different because of who is around you. The situation going into that stage. Uh, even at local matches like everybody usually knows what score they need to get on a classifier to class up. Which then affects maybe how they shoot the stage whether it should or not. So what are you hearing from people with the new. Qualification system where there isn't no more zero or hero because that that could play a negative factor here.

34:22I mean, I like it. I think it's cool. I, I love it. I always kind of shot the classification system that way where I don't have a lot of scores that are below. You know, that I'm tanked badly. And so it was always, you know, consistency for me. But now that you can score above 100% to I think it. It's a little. It's interesting in that sense. Yeah, I don't know that I like that, but I don't know that I like that either. I think it's cool that you can see that number, but I don't know if we should be counting that. Because then it, because then 100% is not 100%. 100% is 90%. So what are we, what are, what are the numbers mean? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there should just be a hundred that's as high as you can go. Anything above a certain time is just or faster than a certain time with certain points.

35:23It's still 100. That's all it is. But again, I'm not. There's a reason why I'm not coming up with these things and being the person designing this. I just like the game. Because I think it balances speed and accuracy in a very interesting way. Yeah, I like the fact now that people can't just go shoot a class fire. And, you know, do whatever they, they can to try to get a higher hit factor knowing that. You know, the whole game of, oh, if I'm not doing well, I'll just, you know, throw a miss or shoot a no shoot or whatever. You know, throw an extra shot on a Virginia count, whatever I need to do to get low enough that it doesn't count, you know. Yeah, I think it helps the classifier. I think the game that, that is the system. I think it makes it a little more legit makes it a better game. Yeah. Keeps people more honest. Yeah. And I think it, I think we get less reshoots of classifiers as well.

36:27Just because what, what, what happens? You average the two or the most recent one takes it. I forget what the exact system is. Yeah, if you reshoot it, then you get an average of the two. Yeah. And then really aren't not reshooting. Which is great for matches, especially indoor matches with huge squads. Where people aren't not hanging around. Oh, right. And then you got like five people wanting to reshoot the classifier. So I don't mind that part. Yeah. But yeah, it's a better game, a better system. Yeah, I'm going to have to do some more, some more work on the aggregate hit factor. That's what I'm calling it aggregate hit factor. Yeah. And I think we've felt it like global before because it gets a good impression of what the match was like. Yeah. I think world shoot for production optics was in the eights. For the winner. Wow. Which is pretty high.

37:27I was going to say it's high for an Ipsich. Very. I was think of like five, you know. Yeah. And then you know, carry optics nationals, I think was low sevens for the winner. And then most everybody else was, I'm thinking of 25. But you know, it's a good tell on the match and what the stages are like. And what people are doing. Christian one with a while. I mean, the hit factor I have is the aggregate hit factor. Yes. That's the one now. It was so globally was 8.040. Okay. Everybody else was mostly seven and a half. Okay. But that's where I'm talking about like he. So last year. He was the fastest carry optics competitor. And he had an alpha percentage of 86.10 with no, no mics. And only, well, he had seven deltas.

38:29I say only had seven deltas. He had one penalty. So that means he had a no shoot. Yeah. And mine. So he would have had a single no shoot. But he was 86.1% alpha. You had an 84.39. You were the second highest in the top 10. Yeah. So you still had a very high alpha rate too. But for him to do that in the time that he did it. It's like damn. Yes. I'm looking at. I'm looking at Mason in production. Is he won production. And he had an 81% alpha rate. And he was the fastest also. So. It's interesting looking at this stuff for sure.

39:30You can actually, I didn't realize how much information I could learn just by looking at numbers in comparison with the different shooters, you know. Yeah, there's there's a lot to be scraped up to be used to get better. Oh, absolutely. It's still pretty wild that you memorize other people's stages that matches and then. Yeah, and I'll shoot him the way I want to. Like sometimes you you pull video from people and you're like, well, that looks kind of dumb. I'm going to shoot that stage differently. But you learn the stage. And then. And then you shoot it. So I think if it is match practice without shooting a match, it's actually free. Are you setting it up in light firing or just dry fire the stage? No, none of it. None of it. It's all in my mind. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So I shoot the match in my mind or a set of stages.

40:31I'll memorize like five or six at a time. Okay. You memorize. And then. Okay. And then just shoot it. And so in your mind, like sometimes I'll make mistakes in the in the match. Like I'll feel a transition's off. And then I either I send a make up or I don't. You know, it's a fun game. Wow. I know I know certain people like can't do that as well. Like as far as imagining images in their mind. I think. You know, I obviously can do that pretty well, but I like it as a as a fun thing to do. Like I'll tune myself up for matches if I don't have one coming up. And I want to get ready for a major or something like that. At what point in your shooting career, did you get to the point where you could do that? I think around. Around 2020.

41:31I started doing that. About three years in. Yeah, a couple of years in. Okay. Was that just for your desire because of your desire to get better? Yeah. And I wasn't shooting matches. I think it was leading up to like 2020 nationals where. I didn't have a ton of matches to go to before that. And I wanted to feel more comfortable at the range as well. And so. I picked a few matches at Frostproof. And memorized some of the stages. And that was when I think you were fifth, weren't you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you were fifth. And that was your first nationals. It was. Okay, there. Boom. That was. I shot that one. Yeah. That was a good one at Frostproof. It was a good match.

42:32It was. The really good. A lot of movers on stages. A really good match. One of the best nationals for sure that I've shot. I mean, as far as like what I think about the stages. Right. I think that was the one where the stage 19 at the end of the road. It was really big and spread out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then some like 25 yard stack partials. Big stage. Yeah. That was probably. Maybe what 170 degree. Bay. Yeah. You know, from far left to far right target. Yeah. They have berms surrounding most of that that Bay, don't they? Yeah. Yeah, they do. Yeah. So I mean, it was there were, you know, three, three berms. So that wasn't the issue. It was just. It was just. Back that big long backward movement of about what 15 yards.

43:33And then. Yeah. And then you had. So then you had targets out to the right. Back to the left. That was a good stage. Really good stage. A lot of those stages to had. I don't know. There was really cool activator sequences. There was that barber. Between the the hardcover hole. It was. Was that the one to where it had that one? Man, it was. It was a burner where your gun was unloaded on that lectern. It was one of those. Yeah. Yeah. And you had like two bobbers and some stationery. And it was all timing. Yeah. That was a fun stage. That was a fun stage. Yeah. A lot of those. A lot of memories from that. I mean, it helped that it was my first nationals are our first nationals. Yeah. That we remember. Hands off to Shannon Smith. Yeah. That was a great stage design. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, there's also. I mean, that stage with the barber. Between. Or behind the hardcover with the whole. Yes.

44:33There was. That was part of one of three movers on that stage. There was a swinger up front. There was a swinger to the right. And then you'd finish on that barber. Well, my hat's off to you because you remember more of that stage than I did. But I definitely remember that one. I did win that stage. So I partially that. Oh, okay. Well, I remember it. And this might be the only reason I remember it is. Do you remember Leo? Yeah. Okay. Well, me, the three of us shot together at that match. And Leo somehow misses the target. Misses the entire steel and shoots the cable. So now they have to repair the cable on the stage because he shot the cable. I think they mentioned that. That's why the arrows were like, and don't shoot the cable. It's like it's almost an impossible shot because it's not a close shot either. It there. That was. It was about 15 20 yards. For sure.

45:33Yeah. And you had to shoot. And you had steel behind it. So you didn't know. You didn't know. Right. You had paper in the middle. So you, when you shot, when you heard steel, you're like, was that the front steel or the back steel? So yeah, it was a, it was a mind master. It was. It was a psychological trap. Yeah. Yeah. But I will never forget that. That he missed the entire, every piece of steel and shot the cable. We're like, how do you even do that? Oh, man. That was fun. Yeah. Great match. And then I think at one nationals at Talladega and those stages were, were good, if I remember. And then like a lot of the cardinal stuff, I'm, I'm happy to not be there next year. I think the, those wood bermsides for stages kind of limit what they can do with it. It ended up with a lot of stages that are just really similar. Yeah. Happy to get out of there.

46:36And now have you been to Southern Utah? No. Okay. No, but the range looks amazing. Looks really nice. It is. Yeah, I guess. Very, very. A lot of work. The berms look very tidy. Dusty. Yes. Oh, I will say the bays are impeccable. Yeah. But lots of gravel, lots of dust. I do like the setup. I liked, so I was there in December for PCSL nationals. And there were multiple food, food trucks, which I liked. There was a coffee truck there because I'm a, I'm a big coffee person. Food, that, and there was a big building. A couple of buildings. There's, I mean, there was just, it was, I did like the setup. Plenty of parking for everybody. So I did, it is a nice setup. It should be a nice place for carry optics. Or, yeah, I'm sorry, handgun, that's factory gun, whatever it is.

47:40It's carry optics. Absolutely. It's going to be limited optics, nationals, and then carry optics, nationals. Yes, it will be. Those are the divisions that, that will matter more going forward. I mean, as far as like who wins them. Yeah. Like winning those, those matches in the future. I will see with limited optics on like how many top people end up shooting them. I imagine it enough will, but for sure, carry optics is still going to be like, if you win that, it means a lot. Right. Yes. Now, well, it will be interesting because when I, like, when I talk to Mason, he said he's going to be shooting some limited optics here. Yeah, and carry optics. I mean, like either or whichever. But it'll be interesting to me. I wonder if he's going to make the move. Away from production and limited to optics. I mean, I know he does. I'm sure you do. So that would be interesting.

48:41That actually creates a vacuum. And production and limited. Some what. Yeah, people should just go and shoot carry optics. Just leave it empty. Leave it empty, huh? It can be a vacuum just sucking air. It's fine. Wow, so you are no friend of production, I'm hearing. Well, I mean, I want, I want everybody competing in the same division or as close to that as possible. So everybody should come over and shoot either carry optics or limited optics. Well, and, and for. Is it factory? I can never remember. They keep changing it. So it's factory gun. Yeah. So for factory gun, then the nice thing is that, you know, like Christian. Probably a few others that shoot open will probably shoot carry optics. Yeah. So you'll get those. So you'll get that in flux. We don't get people. Yeah, pulled like limited optics will they'll be pulled into open or whatever. Right.

49:41Which I, I hope for limited optics that it pulls everyone from open. You know, where you just have limited optics. I don't know if you will, because I think there's people who, you know, they're so, they're very dedicated to that. And they've invested a lot of money in that as well, you know. But I could see where all of your carry optics guys in your production and limited guys shoot limited optics at. That nationals, race gun nationals. Yeah. I could see that. So you'd probably still get some swelling. Would you ever consider shooting a limiter? A race gun nationals in limited optics? I mean, I would, but as far as like the next four years is pretty. Things are laid out. As far as qualifying for world shoot teams. And so they're, I'm automatically going to two nationals in a year. And so I'm going to a third one isn't really practical. But what about like 2028?

50:41Or I'm sorry, 2029. Well, no, then you'd have the world shoot. Yeah. I mean, like if it's, if timing is worked out, I mean, so that's where a June nationals maybe that would be fine. And then if there's a couple on the fall. But again, you're still going to two and nationals are, you know, they're, you've got to be gone for five days anyway. Right. Yeah, I'm just trying to think of a year where maybe you didn't shoot Ipsick nationals. And you shot limited optics instead. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I guess the only year that that would be would be 2028, I suppose. Right. If you were already qualified. Yeah. Or 29, 2029. Right. That would not be a qualifying year. Yeah. But again, you still have world shoot that year. So you may only do the one nationals, you know what I mean? Yeah, we're going away for world shoots. A big commitment of time. So you don't want to throw the rest of your year. Yeah. And money. Yeah. With going to matches that. Yeah. I mean, I'd love to go out of all the nationals that I could. But.

51:41At the same time, I travel's hard. It's hard on. On everything. And so I don't necessarily want to. Now, did your family go with you? No. No. Okay. But when we were there, I mean, everything it was, it was kind of like, oh, they should have come along. Because it would have been great. We were all talking about that at the, at the place we stayed. That, you know, we all could have brought our families in. It would have been amazing. Oh, wow. So what did you do? So world shoot being different. Like we talked about. There's four different schedules throughout the day. With people shooting. When you weren't shooting, what were you doing? I just hung out. I was going to say, when you weren't shooting, what were you doing? I just hung out. There was a pool at the, at the hunting lodge area. And so I like to swim a little bit. Layed out in the sun. We actually could shoot there.

52:42So we shot into a dirt pile. It was the most amazing location ever. Did you wake up every morning with the wildlife nearby? Yeah, most of the time. You, you know, well, I mean, I get in a lot of birds too. But yeah, you can look out and see. See wildlife right around all the stuff you're talking about. Yeah. Okay. Did you try any food that you didn't think you would have tried? Or was there anything that stood out there? Like, man, that was really good. So we were staying with the guys from the hip actor podcast. And I think Jeremy Reed shot. And in Paula. And in Paula. And we had in Paula backstrap. Like that night shot a Chevrolet in Paula. Okay. Yes. And that backstrap was so good. Really. How did they prepare it?

53:43I think it was just like quickly marinated in some. Something. And then it was thrown on a grill. Okay. And maybe they sauteed it or grilled it or what? Yeah. We grilled it. Or I forget. I think. I don't know. Jeremy and Bob did some grilling one of the nights too. From stuff that they had shot. And. And so I ate way more meat than I eat normally. And that was that was good. No regrets. So I did have like too much meat. You got meat sweats and. I'm not acclimated to the meat volume. Sorry. That is funny. So what? Were they borrowing someone's rifles to do this? Or were they just using their. No, so it was a hunting lodge. And so it was a little bit out of season. But Jeremy and Bob. Provided meat for us to eat.

54:46Okay. Yeah, a couple in Paula. And then a kudu, which are really cool animals. They got like spiraled horns. Oh, right. And. How tasty was that? Also very good. I still like the, um, the Impala backstrap. Okay. Still my favorite. But everything was really good. Anything else. So we've had kudu and Impala. Uh, that's what's coming to my mind right off. Okay. Okay. What kind of sides do they serve in South Africa? I mean, all the normal stuff like there are salads and, um, uh, everything's just like a little bit different. But the same. Uh, I don't know. Nothing super crazy. Different, but the same. Different, but the same. Like you recognizable, but tastes a little bit different. I mean, they're beef jerky, which is, uh, bowl tongue there. Right. Really good.

55:46More meat. Huge amount of meat. Is it chewier or softer? What's the? Is it the same, but different? It's, it's. That in, for example, is way better than beef jerky here. Oh, really? So much better. Like it doesn't have any. I don't know. It doesn't. It tastes like it should. And some beef jerky here just tastes like. Right. Uh, well, some of it tastes like cardboard. Yeah. So. Yeah. Did they have like the, I buy, I eat everything spicy. So they have like spicy beltong. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, I think the beltong industry there is just very vast. So much. All right. Would you. Would you travel back there for a vacation? Oh, that's definitely. Yeah. Oh, okay.

56:46Yeah. I am. That lodge that we stay at, I follow them on Instagram and they, you know, they post up there, their stuff. And I always think like, oh, I would be so cool to go back there with the family or go back there and shoot a match at the same time. But realistically, it's. That's only kind of a trip that you can do over a few years if you were committed. Right. So the next ones in Italy, do you think you'll take your family to that one? Yeah. That's the current plan. Uh, I think you'll logistically, it's again, nothing's ever super easy, but. That would be, that would be ideal. Well, and your kids will be four years older. So. Yeah. They will be less work technically. You know what I mean? Technically. Yeah. Yeah. It's always technically. Trust me. I mean, we traveled with our kids just from northern Virginia to Texas, but they were, you know, like 15, 16 years old, they were all guys.

57:46So it was like, okay, you guys can carry your own luggage. You can do your own, you know, you've got to hang around with us, but. We don't have to look over our shoulder going, where's our seven year old? They disappear too. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. It's different stuff. I'm sure there's. I've reminded that there are different challenges all the time with parenting, and they always change. Yes. And it's never what you're expecting. But yeah, they're trying to keep track of the four or five year olds running around. Yeah. It's interesting. We were in Florida. We went to the zoo. And that was, they had a great time there, but it was a lot of, like, where are you going? Right. Back over here. Yeah. And as a parent, you're always like, where'd they go? Where'd they go? Yeah. I saw, I don't even know how it came up. I don't remember what it might have been. Must have been Instagram. I don't know. Something weird just in my feed was this. Oh, I know what it was. It was like one of those, um, concealed carry type training Instagram pages.

58:48And for whatever reason, they were showing a guy who body slammed like a full grown adult male, body slamming like a five year old kid. Um, he literally, they ran an airport, he literally picked him up, swung them like a baton and slammed him down on the pavement. Oh, my God, dude, immediately I was like infuriated. Like I wanted to murder this guy. If I could crawl into the phone, I would have just murdered him. I would have inflicted as much pain on him as I could have. And then I read the notes and said, oh, the kid only had skull fractures and vertebral spinal injuries. I'm like, oh, my God, he needs a diahorable death. The adult. Yes. But I was like, that's the kind of stuff that flashed you in my head. I was like, that's why as a parent, you're paranoid because there are people like that that are out there. You know what I mean? Yeah. Oh, that's why I carry a pocket knife. I will still stab you to death if I have to X stupid. Sorry, my aggressive side's coming out.

59:49But I mean, that's, I only bring that up because as a parent, yeah, I went through that stage too. You know, your kids, your youngs, you're like constantly hawking over them. Like, where are they at? Do I have any people around here? They're acting funny that I need to maybe go cut their throat. I want to pay attention to you, which is exhausting. But it's like, yes, you have to do that. You do have to do that. And then when they, and obviously when they're babies, that's a whole different thing. And then when, when they get older, like, I'm not there yet, but it is, it evolves. Yeah. That's where, you know, when we traveled to Texas, they were, I think my oldest was 16 or 17 and the other two were two years younger. So they were all at that point where I didn't have to worry about some adult male coming over and grabbing them and flipping them around, you know, because they were all shoot. My, by then, my two sons were my height or taller. So traveling with that was like, had we gone overseas? There's other things you worry about.

1:00:49That's not it. Yeah. So. Well, Jay, I do appreciate you coming back on. Of course. Thank you for having me back on. It's always always always nice to be asked back on podcasts. It's an honor. Oh. Yeah. There are certain people I want to have on and I'm like, no, you don't want to, number one, you don't want to wear out, wear out the welcome. And number two, you don't want the audience going, didn't we just hear this guy? You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to wear that out either. But it's like, oh, so that's why when I run into you a match or something, I'm like, I try to catch up because I'm like, didn't get a chance to talk to you on the podcast or whatever. I know. I know podcasts are a great way to, I feel like whenever I have conversations with people, like we should just have recorded that. That would have been good. Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. Yeah. But yeah. Anyway, thank you, Dave. Thank you everyone. You're welcome. Enjoy the snow. Thank you. Have a great podcast sometime. There you go.

1:01:49Check him out. All right. J He be safe. Thanks Dave. Thanks, it.