S3 Ep145: Our Interview With Elizabeth Smart

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1:02Canopy's clean moisture, come that's dryness, dullness, and fine lines, while strengthening the skin's barrier and boosting the effectiveness of topical skincare products. With its sleek design, canopy is the cleanest and easiest humidifier on the market. With its unique technology, cleaning is as easy as popping it in the dishwasher. Go to getcanopy.co to save $25 on your Canopy humidifier purchase today with Canopy's filter subscription. Even better, use code podcast to check out to save an additional 10% off your Canopy purchase. Your skin will thank you. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasser. And today, as you see, we have Elizabeth Smart with us as promised. Yeah, over 10 hours, we were just talking before we hit record over 10 hours of actual crime weekly, not including all the research that Stephanie did. So I feel like anybody who's followed this series

2:04up to this point is very familiar with Elizabeth's story, but not necessarily her life or where she is now. And I know for some of you, if you're not following Elizabeth, she's doing some great things out there. She's making a big difference. And we were talking about some other things she's got going on, septic tanks, et cetera. We won't go into the boring stuff. But I was saying in the series, Elizabeth, I got the chance to know you a little bit on America's most wanted. And I almost feel guilty because we had one dinner together where we talked a little bit. And you mentioned in passing about some of your experiences in what you went through, but what I love about you is you don't sit there and you're just not, it's not about me, me, me. You were always talking about how you're helping others. You and Callahan, a lot when we went to dinner. And I have so much respect and admiration for you because now knowing the depths of what you went through, and candidly, I personally think you saved your family's lives. I really do, but based on your decisions and your actions that night, I think that's the reason you're all still here. Just my personal opinion. So knowing how young you are, we're at the time, 14.

3:07I have a daughter that's 13. And knowing that you had the wherewithal at that time to make those decisions under those stressful circumstances, I just gained even more respect for you than I already had. So I appreciate you coming on and talking to us for a little bit. Absolutely, glad to come on. So we can sort of start by, if you want Derek, we can kind of talk about, first of all, Elizabeth has written, you know, she's done a million things. And she's also written three books. I have read two of them at this point. Your most recent book is called Detours, correct? Yes. Now this is- That came out in December, right? December, okay, cool. This is more of a book about how you kind of have moved through things in your life. So whereas your book from 2013, my story, which I used very heavily when I was researching this case, that was more about what happened to you and things like that. Detours is more about, you know, kind of speaking to people who have gone through similar trauma

4:08or, you know, multitudes of trauma and how to sort of move through that and recover and live a life that's full, correct? Yeah, it's- I mean, it's not even what people have gone through doesn't even have to even be remotely similar to what I've experienced. It could be hopefully anything and you'd be like, oh, okay, it's okay to feel sad. Like it's okay to, like, grieve the life I had imagined myself for myself that is no more. It's kind of trying to find those kind of high-level turning points that I found in my own healing journey. I found this book to be incredibly, I guess, uplifting. I don't want to say it in such a basic way because there's so much to it, but there was a lot of- we asked people, did you have any questions for Elizabeth? And there was a lot of people who have been through things that were similar to what you had been through and obviously other things in their lives and a lot of them had questions for you as in, what kinds of things did you do as you moved through life

5:08if you dealt with recurring memories or unresolved things to sort of feel better and to deal with really low days or periods of depression, periods of sadness. And I want you to answer that in your own way, but I think that a lot of those people should check out that book because it's going to be so very comprehensive to help you do that. And Elizabeth can answer in her way now. I'll let her do that obviously, but this book will be something you can return to time and time again, because what I found when you're moving through trauma is you'll deal with something and then six months down the road or two years down the road, you'll deal with something else that you had never previously dealt with. And so you can return to that book then to figure out how you can sort of move through this different season of your trauma journey and your healing journey. But Elizabeth, as far as your response to this, if you can answer for the people listening now, what do you do when you or what have you done,

6:13when you've gone through periods of sadness or low days or periods of depression and you've had to sort of work through that? Well, first of all, thank you so much for your kind words. I certainly hope that my most recent book is like a friend is just like a companion that you can turn to if you need help or suggestions. But putting that aside, I mean, I remember very vividly, just quickly after I was rescued, having the thought into my mind that if I died tomorrow, then the only thing people would talk about my funeral would be my abduction, would be my kidnapping. And I remember just sitting there thinking, by the time I die, like whenever that day comes, I don't want my kidnapping mentioned at all. Like I don't want that to be the only thing that people remember about me or like that's what they associate me with. And so from like almost day one of being rescued,

7:15I not only did I have a huge fear of missing out on things, but I just knew that I wanted my life to mean so much more than just my kidnapping. So I feel like I just have, I don't want to say just like filled my life up with like nothingness, but I have tried to live life to the fullest. Like I don't want to look back and have regrets. I mean, I died my hair red once because I was like, I wonder what I'd look at as a redhead. And I'd always been too scared to do it. And then I remember thinking, what if I get to 81, Dan, I'm looking back on my life, what a stupid regret to not to be like, oh, I wish I knew what I looked like with red hair. So I did it. And so how did you look? Yeah, what's the verdict? Well, I'm blonde again. I'm blonde again. So I had to tell you all you need to know. I mean, no, look, I liked it. It was a fun change every morning when I got up and like walked in the mirror, I was like, oh, my gosh, who is that person that she? That's not me.

8:17But again, like I said, I'm blonde again. Glad I didn't. But I do think there is some truth that time has the power to heal or at least less in pain to a degree. So that, and I say all this, because now when I'm like on my own or like in my quiet time and I start reflecting back on my life, my brain doesn't just go immediately to when I was kidnapped. Like, yes, that might be one of the single biggest experiences of my life, but that's not all of my life. And I'm like, for me, it's been helpful to be able to experience more things so that I do have more things to like look back on and be like, I did that. I'm so proud of myself for doing that. And actually, it's to a point where I actually think I talk about this in my most recent book where I've ran a few marathons. And usually around mile 18, I'm like, I hate this.

9:19Why am I doing this to myself? I'm actually paying to be in pain, to get like a banana and a little metal that everyone gets at the end. Like, why am I doing this to myself? This is, here, idiocy, but then usually that's like my brain can't be like Elizabeth. Like, you're stronger than this. You're better than this. You survived nine months of being kidnapped. You can survive the last eight miles, six miles, whatever it is. Like, you can finish. You can walk it, but you can finish. Stop being, you've done much harder things. Like, get back up and keep going. And so for me, it's almost like something that was so terrible once now reminds me of how capable I am now or how strong I am now. And have there been difficult times? Absolutely, 100%. I mean, like, everything leading up to the trial, which was eight years from the time that I was rescued.

10:22Like, there was so much frustration involved in that. There were times I was like, I don't want to talk to anybody else. I've already talked to people. You're asking me the same questions that everyone asked. Why is this even a question? Like, everyone knows that these two people did it. How can they possibly, how can there be a world where there's a statute of limitations where they could possibly walk free? How could that possibly happen? So there's been, yeah, there's been hard times. And I think another point that I bring up in my book is talking about pursuing connection fearlessly. I think, for me, that's probably been one of the biggest influencing factors in my healing is just finding people who I know will show up for me day or night. People that I can trust, people that I can talk to, and maybe I've talked to them about the same thing,

11:2320,000 times, but they'll still be there for the 20,000th and first time to listen to me. And they're not just like, oh, Elizabeth, just get over it. Having those people in my life has been huge because now when I do feel sad, I can call them up. And I just be like, I don't know why, but this is, I'm just really struggling today. And I don't think this is fair and I don't want to be unhappy or I don't want to be here. But having, like having that safety net in my life has made a huge difference for me. Do you think that was one of the hardest parts like when this happened to you, you were 14. So afterwards, if you didn't already trust somebody and know that they were a good person, was it hard for you afterwards to move forward and open yourself up to trust or get to know anyone else new? I would say I was a lot more cautious after. And I, I mean, frankly, I was nervous to be around men by myself. Understandable.

12:24I mean, I just, yeah, I just, I wasn't comfortable about with it. And you know, people have asked me so many times over the years, like, oh, how are you married? Like after everything that you experienced, how are you okay being married? And you've got kids, like, how are you okay with that? And I'm like, how am I okay having sex after being raped? Is that what you're asking? Yes, that's what they're asking. To answer that question, but even bigger and more broadly, like, you know, when I was rescued, I was 15, I was still a kid. I wasn't coming home to an arranged marriage. I wasn't forced to be with someone who is older than my dad. I was allowed, as much as possible, to go back and be a kid, to go back. And I guess life was different. Life never returned to the way it was, but I was allowed to some degree to reclaim who I had once been. And I feel like that gave me the time that I needed to grow

13:25so that by the time I was ready to like, date and have boyfriends, it was very different than being kidnapped and by the time I got married, I mean, you know? Here this young man was getting down on his knees, asking me to marry him. Whereas when I was kidnapped, with all your many hours of research, you know, nobody got down on their knees to ask me to marry them. I was pulled and forced. So completely different experiences. Well, I think you said earlier, to mourn the life that you thought you would have. So leaving that situation, obviously, you're not going to want this life you thought you would have of romance and having somebody get down on their knee and propose to you and love you and support you and start a family with them. You're not going to let Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzi steal that from you when they've already taken so much. You're going to try to eventually open yourself up

14:25to having that happen because that's what you, you know, that's I think whatever you want. That's what you deserve. Yeah, you know, that's what you deserve. And you have a beautiful family. Obviously, I follow you along on Instagram and I can see the support system around you and to what you said earlier, as far as not letting the kidnapping define you, you've done that, you've accomplished it. I mean, for me, one of the defining moments when we were covering your case, just that made me proud to be your friend was seeing you up there in your first press conference after the trial and you take that time to highlight another case. I mean, if that doesn't right there define you, I don't know what will. I mean, that's such a powerful statement when it's about you. It's supposed to be about you and your vindication, your justice and yet you decided to highlight someone else's tragedy that was ongoing. So you've done it and you're continuing to do it and I love that you were able to take something that's so horrific and find a way to motivate you because people have choices in life, right? We all go through tough times and you can either let it break you or make you

15:27and you can take that and say, hey, I was able to do this, I can do anything. And I think that's what the message is when I hear your story is, here's a young girl who went through basically the worst thing you can go through and she's using it even now as you're telling us in marathons to motivate yourself to go that extra mile. And I think whether you've been through something, you've been through or just something that was tough for you, that's something that we can all learn from when we're trying to push ourselves to go outside our comfort zone. So you're definitely accomplishing your mission as far as being more than your story from many years ago. You know what's frustrating? Realizing you probably could have used therapy during a really stressful time, but the moment you actually try to find someone, it suddenly feels impossible. Yeah, finding a therapist can be hard enough, but finding one who actually takes your insurance, that's where people usually hit a wall. Exactly, that and scheduling, you have to wait weeks, sometimes months before someone has an opening.

16:28And a lot of online therapy options don't work with insurance at all, which means you're paying the full cost out of pocket or committing to a really expensive subscription. But Rula does things differently. Yeah, Rula is a healthcare provider group that partners with over 100 insurance plans, which brings the average copay to about $15 per session, and depending on your benefits, it can even be zero dollars. And it's real care from licensed professionals, therapists and psychiatrists, that's actually covered by insurance, which makes taking care of your mental health feel realistic instead of overwhelming. And Rula doesn't just match you with whoever happens to be available next. They look at your goals, your preferences, and your background to give you a curated list of licensed in-network therapists who actually are a good fit. They work with more than 15,000 therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, and there are no wait lists. Like I said earlier, sometimes you have to wait weeks or months, no, not with Rula. Appointments can be available as soon as tomorrow, which is amazing. And Rula stays involved in your care as well.

17:30They don't just hook you up with someone and then leave you hanging. They help with scheduling, they check in on progress, and they make sure you're getting the support that you need. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by your insurance. And listen, we've talked about mental health a lot on this channel. I've definitely gone to therapy. I think Stephanie has said that as well. And it doesn't always, there's a stigma around it where if you need therapy, there's something wrong with you. I like to do it as just a personal checkup, a check-in to speak to someone who's objective about the situation, is not personally connected to it, and is there, and is licensed in it, and has a background in it and knows how to treat whatever's bothering me from a scientific level, not just as a friend. And I think everybody, regardless of what you're going through, regardless of how things might be in your life, everyone can use someone to talk to. So visit Rula.com slash crime weekly to get started. After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. That's r-u-l-a.com slash crime weekly.

18:31You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budgets. And a lot of people did have that question. How do you handle being a mother? How do you handle parenthood? And how has that affected the way that you parent? Just for, you know, your outward behavior with your own children and your internal kind of conversation with yourself? I think it's made me a much more aware parent. Just aware of what can happen, what does happen. It's influenced me to have a lot harder conversations, a lot quicker, much quicker than I would have ever imagined I'd be ready for. I mean, honestly, I still don't feel like I'm ready for them, but I'm still having them. I mean, usually when I tell my kids no to something, I do understand why I'm saying no. Like, do you know why? And they're like, oh, it's because you just

19:33want us to be safe. I'm like, yes, it's because I want you to be safe. And that's why we have some of the rules that we have. Like, we do not do sleepovers in our house. And I would say it definitely has affected a lot of how I parent it or how I parent today. I don't know that I would. I think I probably would have just kind of continued on in like the bubble that I grew up in thinking like, oh, we live in a nice neighborhood. Like, we're a nice family. Like, nothing bad could possibly happen to us. Like, we don't have enemies or we haven't like heard anyone else. Like, nothing bad can happen to us. I think it would have been very easy just to kind of continue on in that mentality. Whereas now I'm like, who are you? What are you doing? Mm-hmm. Why do you think that's okay? No, you can't go there. Mm-hmm. 100%. We were literally just talking about this because my oldest gives me some pushback now when I'm, she wanted to basically go with a friend's nanny to go to the mall and I was available.

20:34And I'm like, no, I'll bring you guys. I'll keep a safe distance. You'll have your phone on you. But if something happens, I'm within reach of you. Oh, dad, you're just like that because of what you saw when you were a detective and I'm like, yeah, partially, but it's educated me and I use it to try to make sure it doesn't happen to you or someone I care about. Is there anything that you would offer advice towards? I mean, obviously you have your own practices. You said no sleepovers. I'm kind of on board with you there. There's been a couple exceptions that I've made. People think I'm crazy, but I kind of agree with you. A lot of the cases that I worked, they usually started out of sleepover or a party like that at someone else's home, even when they had met the parents. So I'm kind of on board with you there. Is there any other tips like that you can think of that may help others? I mean, I think like a lot of parents will be like, well, Elizabeth, like how do you talk to your kids without scary them? Like when do you start talking to them? I'm like, well, it's not just like one day you're just going along and all of a sudden you're like, okay, let's talk about rape, rape culture.

21:35Let's talk about human, like I was like, it's not, you don't do that. Like what really should have happened is like from the time that they're like little, you know, when you're talking like, this is your nose, this is your, you know, your cheek, your lips, your teeth, like, this is your elbow, like, this is your penis, this is your, you know, your vulva, your vagina, like it should, like the conversations should honestly start, like that, very young, very basic, not just refer to them as your private parts and case in point, you know, day after I was rescued, I was brought to the Children's Justice Center, I was told if I was, if I had to speak to these two psychiatrists, well, I actually wasn't told, my parents were told, if I spoke to them that they could stand proxy for me during the trial, so I went in there. It was very like intense interviewing, they wanted to get all the graphic nitty gritty details, and I ended up being two men, two middle aged men,

22:38who were both like clearly religious, and like we didn't share a religion, which like that's fine, like that, I don't have a problem with that, but just like at that point in time, they were men, they were a similar age to my chapter, they were both religious, like the imbalance of power there was already like way off, like I definitely felt threatened, I definitely felt unsafe, I definitely did not want to be there. There were all of these factors that played into this that already made me feel tense, uneasy, scared, nervous, I'm like, it was like the first full day that I was gonna be home, there was no way I wanted to go, the children's justice center to like rehash everything that had happened to me. So these two psychiatrists, they're like, well what did they do to you? They're like, well they hurt me, and they'd be like, well how'd they hurt you? And they're like, well they molest me, well how'd they molest you? And they'd be like, well they raped me, and they'd be like, well do you know what rape is?

23:40Could you explain rape to me? And I was like, well yeah, he forced himself inside me, and they'd be like, okay no, we need you to like spell it out, can you use anatomically correct body part names? And I was like, well, it got to the point where I had to say he repeatedly forced his penis into my vagina, and as a 15 year old girl who really grew up only hearing like people referred to like those genitalia as your private parts, that your private parts, that your private parts, or like, you know, I've got four brothers like them being boys, like I'd never said that before, and honestly it was mortifying to me because there was already shame attached to the word penis, or to the word vagina. So that was, I mean like everything about that situation was terrible to me, was horrible to me. So when parents say like, well where can I begin today? I say, well, like, when you're teaching them body parts, just call a penis a penis.

24:42Like, that's what it is, and it's a body part. Like, why is there a shame attached to it? If it's just like, it's a body part. It's like elbow. Yes, Stephanie calls me that all the time, just in the other version of it. But I mean, like I do just think like there is importance in teaching like the anatomically correct body part names because it's so funny. I mean, I guess like maybe it's specific to Utah, but in my, actually in my experience, I'd say it's pretty calm in everywhere that people have like their funny names for genitalia, and like, there are a few people just like refer to it as, yep, you know, my vagina hurts, my penis hurts, whatever. And there's like other motions. Yeah, other, like other motions are attached to it. And if you were like already coming from a conservative background,

25:44conservative culture, then it just makes it even worse. And so like that's like something so easy that you could start off with right out of the door with, talking about and just be like, yep, this is what it is. And then, you know, from there, like as they get a little bit older, like kids naturally have kind of like that shy, not all kids. But in my kids, I've noticed like when they meet someone for the first time, like they're not just like running up to them and be like, hey, like they're a little bit standoffish. They're like, who are you? And they like stand behind me and like, you know, they're just more cautious, but also then reinforcing to them that like their body is their own, right? So my mother-in-law, she lives in the UK. And so we don't see her very often. And it's always a big deal when she comes to visit because it's so far away. But also helping my kids realize that if they did not want to give her a hug because they didn't feel safe or then it felt comfortable that that is their body, that that is their choice, that they don't have to hug anyone they don't want to.

26:47And you know, that would be a very easy thing for me to be like, but you know, this is your grandma. She came all the way from from England to come and see you. She came all the way across the world just to see you. You don't want to give her a hug. It would be so easy for me as a parent to do that. But then what is that doing to them? That's reinforcing them that to some degree their body is not their own, that they don't have ownership over their body and that they can't make decisions for their own body. And children should know that this is your body. Yes, there might be times where, you know, you like a doctor might need to look at you, but that also being said, like, I should be present. As your mother, I should be present. Even if it's someone that you think you should trust and they're like, oh, it's okay, we can get just, we can just get changed naked together and you don't want to, you don't have to. Like teaching them that body autonomy, that their body is their own, that is a huge, that's huge. And letting them know that you support them in what they choose for their body, that is huge.

27:50Not just overriding them and like being like, oh, that you never see or go give her a hug. Like these are, this is not just sitting there and talking and being like, oh, okay, well, we don't talk to people who we don't know because half the time strangers probably are the safer people than the ones you do know. But just starting with those, those are really basic easy things. And then these conversations, it can't just be one and done. Like if you have a conversation with me once, I'm sorry, there is a very good chance that I will not be able to tell you, I might remember us talking, but I probably won't be able to tell you what we talked about if it was just one time. Like I need the repetition or I need notes taken during the conversation or a calendar invite because if I don't have any of those, it's just not gonna happen. I completely agree on the bodily autonomy thing with your children and I find that it can, for some reason, seem controversial within family dynamics, extended family dynamics.

28:51And you have to really make your boundaries clear on that to people because especially older generations they don't understand. I was raised in a family, we were Italian and it was like, no, you're seeing 75 of your uncles and cousins and aunts today and you're gonna hug every single one of them and you're gonna, if they wanna give you a kiss, you're gonna give them a kiss because it's your family, it's what you do. And I remember as a kid being like, you know, I don't feel, it just happens to be today, I don't feel like being touched, I don't wanna hug everybody, I don't feel like it today. And not having that autonomy to say that as a child, it adds to the powerlessness that you already feel as a child and you have to explain this to in-laws and even your own family. It's nothing personal, but if my child does not want to give you a hug today or if my child doesn't want to go to your house today or if my child doesn't wanna sleep over at your house because they wanna come home, this is not something you get to make them feel guilty or bad about because that's not how I'm choosing to raise them and having to communicate your boundaries

29:52and make sure those are clear to people even in your own family. It can cause pushback and some, yeah, because they don't understand it and they don't think that you should be raising your kids that way for some reason. It's so important and I completely agree and it might be considered controversial by some even in our own comments section because Derek and I are always saying things. Yeah, I agree. In our comments. We said no sleepovers and a few episodes ago and we had people being like, that's ridiculous. But no, this is, we do true crime. We're in this world and we see these stories every day and this is how we feel we need to raise our children and exist in the world in order to sleep at night and not be completely stressed out all the time and that's what happens. And even beyond that, you can do everything right. You can have the conversations, you can have the rules, you can do everything right and bad things can still happen. I mean, like I'm not saying my parents were perfect.

30:54We didn't have a lot of those conversations because we didn't know, but they certainly did their best and I was by no means like a wild chop. Nobody would have ever looked at me. Like as a 14-year-old, they'd been like, oh, gotta watch that one. Like she is a rebel. No one in their right mind would ever have thought that about me, honestly. No one now probably would think about that about me now. But like I lived in the right neighborhood. I lived in a nice home. I had a nice family. Like I went to bed when I was supposed to go to bed. I wasn't wandering down dark alleys. I wasn't like on, what was it back then? AOL or whatever it was back then. Yeah, like chatting online, going into chat rooms and talking to people I didn't know. Like I wasn't doing any of those things and it still happened to me. So even doing all the right things, bad things can still happen.

31:55Yeah, but I still love the premise of what you're saying and it's interesting because I'm learning as a parent every day, but the programming of your children, connecting those neurons and setting them up for something where they may have to make a decision and push back on something. I love that because with my kids, I pushed them a lot on like, hey, you never put your hands on someone, but if someone puts their hands on you, you have the right to defend yourself. You don't let people hurt you. And I've never had that conversation where it's like, hey, if you don't feel like giving someone a hug or a kiss, you have the right to say no. I've never had that conversation. Now, I will because I want them to start to correlate, hey, I don't feel comfortable with this. I have the right, even if you're an adult, to push back. Because like you said, it's their body. And I have two girls. So it's something where I try to have those conversations as the dad. It is difficult sometimes for me, but I'm trying to get more comfortable with it. And that is something where I love the idea of programming them young to have this ability to know that when someone an adult doesn't matter who it is,

32:57wants to touch you. You from the get go have the right to say no. It's your body. I think that's the underlying theme there. It's your body. And it's a very interesting perspective because that could help them down the line. Now, your situation was a little different, obviously. But I think on a more surface level like sleepovers, if they're programmed to think, hey, if the adult pushes me to do this, I have to do it. Because that's what I've been taught. And so I do think there's something to that. Well, and then also just like taking it a step further, you know, we have cancel culture today. We have like, if you... What's that? I've never heard of it. You don't know what it is. You know, I don't know either, actually. But like, I think it's good to be as accurate, as compassionate, as possible. Like, yes to all of those things. I think being polite is good. I hope nobody would ever come across me and think, well, she is just... She is so rude.

33:57Like, who does she think she is? Like, I hope nobody ever has that impression of me. But I also just want to say that I think many of us, and probably more females as well than men, males, I would say they prioritize other people's feelings over their own safety. Like, I was given this example, I don't know, years ago, and it's always just kind of stuck in my head. And maybe you've already talked about it, or you've probably already heard it. So I'm probably just saying something you've already heard. But it just like affected me so much, I've never forgot it. In the animal kingdom, you would never see like a gazelle willingly get into an elevator with a lion. Like, there's no way. It's not gonna end well. Yeah, it's not gonna end well. Like, as a woman, you know, like, if I'm going to the airport, like, and I get open to the elevator, and there's someone in there that I'm like, oh, oh, it's almost like I just get in regardless

35:02because I'm like, oh, well, I'm waiting for the elevator. It's gonna look weird if I don't get in. There's just one person in there. Like, it'll probably be okay. And isn't that just like kind of sad that I'm, and then also in my mind, I'm like, well, what will this person think if I don't get in? What if he thinks that I'm not getting in because of the way he looks, which wouldn't fully be wrong. Yeah, yeah. But so you mean don't ignore your instincts. Like, if you just don't ignore your instincts, it's to make somebody else comfortable or to not hurt their feelings. Yeah, I'm glad I don't do that. Yeah. I like it. Like, if you're on a date, like, I mean, I haven't been on a date for a really long time. Like, with someone besides my husband, and I haven't been on a date for a very long time. But like, even back then, I can remember like, thinking like, oh, well, he just probably thinks this. Oh, well, he probably's just thinking, oh, well. And like, like, space, space, more space, and more space, excuses, excuses, and more excuses were given to us. Like, I'm really not okay with this. And I should have, I stopped it right when I had my first like,

36:03winch of something in my stomach instead of waiting in to us. Like, this is a red flag. This is not okay. Yeah. I completely agree. I think it's amazing advice, especially nowadays. Better be safe than sorry, right? Absolutely. Women do have a tendency to ignore their instincts because they're trying to make other people comfortable or they're afraid of hurting feelings or they're afraid of being called a bitch. Or you look like a, you seem mean. They're stuck up. Yeah. That's great advice for our audience. Who is, you know, I would say majority female. Yeah, about 80%, 90% female. Yeah, for sure. You know what people don't talk about enough when it comes to quitting smoking or vaping. The habit itself is not just always the nicotine. It's the hand-to-mouth motion. That little pause during the day, the muscle memory, this thing that you get used to doing that's beyond, you know, dependency on a certain substance. It's what your body and your brain becomes used to.

37:04Yeah, that loop, your brain expects, right? Where you break that pattern and suddenly your brain's going, wait, what am I supposed to do now? This isn't the norm. Yeah, exactly. And that's where fume comes in. It's actually kind of genius. It's a flavored air device designed to help people quit vaping or smoking by replacing that hand to mouth habits. There's no nicotine. There's not even any batteries or vapor. It's just a weighted, fidget-friendly device that gives your hands and mouth something else to reach for when those old brain loops pop up. Yeah, and honestly, for me, the fidget factor alone is extremely helpful. I talk about it all the time. If you're watching really closely, you'll see that I'm using, I usually got something in my hand. It's usually the fume. I love the look. I love the weight. And I do like the fidget aspect of it. You got the twist and you also got the magnet. Although, I do have to be careful when recording so that the mic doesn't pick it up. I've had moments where I've picked up the fume just to fidget, not even because I was thinking about a craving and that interruption is the whole point, right? It breaks the old pattern before you fall back into it. And if my new pattern is just fidgeting

38:04with the fume device instead of, you know, doing something that's not so great for me, then I'll take it. Yeah, and the flavors are intentionally lighter than vaping, more like a flavored water compared to like soda. And my personal favorite is the orange vanilla. I like the fruity air ones. The raspberries are really, really good. The, what did you say was the orange cream cereal? The cream sickle one. Yeah, I think it is orange vanilla, but it tastes like a cream cereal to me, so I always refer to it as cream sickle. There's subtle fresh, but really, really satisfying. Yeah, and fume has already helped over 700,000 people take steps toward better habits. Now it's your turn. Stephanie, tell them where to go. So when you grab a journey pack, you're also going to get a free gift just for using our code. So head to trifume.com. That's T-R-Y-F-U-M.com and use code crime weekly to claim your free gift today. Hey there, it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway. It is stock up savings time. Now through April 2nd, spring in for store-wide deals

39:06and earn four times at points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Goldfish, Kebler, Doritos, all. M&M's Drumstick, Outshine and Kellogg's. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event-long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pick up or delivery. Restrictions apply, see website for full terms and conditions. It's tax season and by now, I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to hear. $16 billion. That's how much money and refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. Here's another one. One in four honest, hardworking, tax-paying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. But it's not all grim news. Liflock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, Liflock's US-based Restoration Specialist will fix it, backed by another good number. The million dollar protection package.

40:08In fact, Restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Liflock identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Visit lifelock.com slash iHeart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% off at lifelock.com slash iHeart. Terms apply. We had a lot of questions from our audience. We're gonna get to them. We had some Patreon questions. We had some questions in the comments. I personally have a couple of questions because our format is definitely kind of tell, she does all the research. She tells me the story and then I ask questions to her. But there were a couple of questions I wanted to ask you and they're not necessarily to do exactly with the case, but maybe the trial as well. The first question I had, which you may be able to answer it, you may not, but just being around Brian David Mitchell for as long as you had been around him, at some point he may have become, I guess, bored, right? Being up there, let's say that they didn't find you,

41:08that they didn't identify you, that they didn't bring you back home. What do you think the end game for Brian was? Do you think that he would have let you leave at some point? Do you think he would have killed you? What do you think would have happened if you were up there much longer than you had already been? He would have never let me go. Never. No, I don't agree, he would definitely not. He would have never let me go. I feel like a little bit torn saying this because the whole defense in the trial was a question of competency. Could he be made, could he be made competent to stand trial right now and could they prove competency back then? And everything just circled around whether or not he was competent then and now. And so I've always been like really hesitant to say like he was crazy or he didn't understand what he was doing because he did. He did. And he knew what he was doing.

42:09He found out the best way to manipulate people and he took advantage of it. And ultimately I think what it came down to was just he wanted to rape little girls. He wanted to feel like he was in control. He wanted to feel like he was powerful. He wanted to do what he wanted to do without getting in trouble. So I don't think he would have ever let me go. I think he would have continued. I know. Well, I mean, he did make two other attempts to kidnap other girls. That's right. I think he would have kept trying to kidnap more girls whether or not he was successful. Thank heavens. I am a late bloomer quite literally in every sense of the word. You know, I didn't start my period until after I had been kidnapped for six months. So like I, I don't only had a period three times before I was rescued and like they weren't regular. I know this is all territory you wanted to go into. Totally. But like they weren't regularly. Like I, I bled nonstop. But no doubt like eventually they would have become regular

43:12and I would have gotten pregnant at some point. Yeah. And I could have died. I don't know. Like he could have killed me. Like he would not have let me go. That's, that's why I asked because and I hate to use the word lucky. I'm not, you know, I won't. But a lot of the cases that I worked where something similar occurs where there's, there's molestation for an extended period of time. The offenders will, like you said, they're not going to let you go because you're a liability, right? But also they get fatigued and then they ultimately will kill you. So I, I don't want to say lucky, but the fact that you're still with us were so lucky to have you because it could have gone the other way where if he had gotten fatigued and no longer felt like he quote unquote had used for you, he could have killed you. And we could have found you in those woods. And I'm so happy that's not the case, but that's something where it could have gone either way. And I hear this story and I think about how long he had you there. It could have ended a lot. I wish it would have ended a lot sooner, but that lucky for us, he didn't go to that extreme. He wanted you around. Like you said, he wanted to bring in more girls,

44:12but that is something that I think about because just one day if he came up that mountain and said, you know what, this is just too much. This is getting to be too much about hassle for me. It could have been a different story. I'm so glad that that's not the case. Me too. Yeah, you too. I know Derek wanted to also talk about the time in the library when you were there with Brian David Mitchell and Wanda and the detective came in the homicide detective and he was looking for you because there had been a report that you were there and somebody recognized your eyes. And you know, he was asking you to remove the veil and they wouldn't let him. And how did you feel in that moment? Because obviously you talked about it in your book and we theorized, well, how would you have known that this was a man you could trust when you had already been shown that you couldn't trust this other adult man that you were with? How did you know that even if you had removed the veil or grabbed him like this detective said, you know, she could have just grabbed me and then she would have been safe. I mean, this Brian David Mitchell was convincing

45:13this guy that he was related to you in some ways. So would the detective have actually just snatched you away and brought you to safety? How would you have known that not only as a child but as a child who had gone through so much and had their reality so skewed? So what was your feeling in that moment when you were in the library? I was scared and that is another question I have been asked so many times and for years, I didn't even know how to answer. Like I felt angry when people used to ask me it because in my mind, it was always just like so clear. Like I didn't know who this detective was and actually funny enough. I didn't even know what the word homicide meant back then. So he's like, I'm a homicide detective. I knew what detective was, but I was like, I have no idea. I don't know what homicide means. Like he didn't say I'm looking for Elizabeth smart. He never at any point in my memory ever said Elizabeth smart. He just said we've had a call. We're looking for someone, you know, you've been mentioned.

46:14We just want to see your face, blah, blah. And now by that point, you know, I had been held captive for like four months, three, four months. Like it had been quite a significant amount of time. And in that time, no one had ever stopped him from hurting me. Nobody had ever stopped him from raping me. No one had ever stopped him from like withholding water or food or stopping me from sleeping. Like no one had ever stood in his way and protected me. And I feel like for me, I just had to, the only person I could rely on was myself. And I had realized early on that my best chance of survival was to do what they said. If I did what they said, then maybe they would like me or a little bit like me. And if they liked me a little bit, maybe that would make them a little bit less likely to kill me

47:17because they could kill me. They 100% could kill me at any point in time. And so that had more or less been my strategy of survival. Just do whatever it is you have to do to survive. And up until that point, it was doing what they said to survive. And, you know, my captors said, you know, if you ever scream, if you ever run, if you ever do something we don't want you to do, you know, we'll kill you. We don't kill you, we'll kill your family. And like after experiencing everything that I experienced at their hands, those were very, very real threats. And so again, like although this man came up and he was like, I'm a detective, like I didn't know who he was. And like I didn't have any relationships with like, I didn't know anyone who was a police officer. The most interaction I had with police officers prior to my induction was the dare program in fifth grade. That was as much interaction as I ever had with the police officer. And so I didn't know if they were capable of protecting me.

48:18I mean, my captor used to bring back newspaper articles of the search being put on for me or the missing flyers that had my face on it. He'd bring them back to the camp and you'd be like, oh, the whole world's looking for you, but nobody's ever going to find you because I have you. And it felt like that was true. Like people came so close, so many times, to finding me, but then they didn't. And when that happened, after that happened enough times, I mean, it really did just begin to feel like my chance of rescue would be out living them, would be just share age. Yeah, I mean, I never looked at it from the perspective of you did anything wrong. Like you're a young woman trying to stay alive, exactly what you just said. I did give the detective a little bit of shit in the episode because for me, I understand it was a religious thing, but considering the circumstances and I had talked about how I would have handled it,

49:18but you would have been taken the veil off. It would have been there or it would have been at the station. And I know that's kind of like Monday morning quarterbacking it. But I guess like a follow-up question would be, and I'm sure this detective feels horrible about it. Have you ever had the chance to speak with him? I did, actually. I met him during the trial. And actually, I think he has since passed, since then I want to say he died of cancer perhaps, but I mean, he was crying when we chatted in the trial, but also like to cut him some slack, I think if you go back to 2002, like the time that I was kidnapped, it was only nine months after 9-11 happened. And I guess I can't speak for anywhere else in the country, but from my perspective as a 14-year-old kid, watching the twin towers come down, watching everything that happened after that, there was a level of fear. I feel like within the country, around any kind of extremism,

50:20there was a level of fear around Islam, at least that is what I perceived as a 14-year-old child. An adult might have a different perspective, but that is my perspective as a kid. Because I remember like on the few occasions that he'd bring me down into Salt Lake, we were dressed in robes. We had on veils. I mean, people refer to them as burkas, but like people would see us walking down the street, they would stop, they'd cross the other side of the street, they'd keep walking till they were past us, and then they'd cross back over. Or people would roll down their windows and stick their heads out of their windows, and yell, oh, Salma, add us. So I mean, like, to give that cop some, like... Leigh Way, a little bit of... Leigh Way, give him a little bit of a break. I mean, I do think it was an incredibly, religiously sensitive time in the country. That's fair. I still would've made you take the veil down, but that's fine. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.

51:21So I don't know about you, Derek, but we've actually been kind of lucky this week with weather. We've had sun. The temperatures have gone up. Is it the same for you? Yeah, 65 degrees today. It's really nice. The sun being out is amazing. And then suddenly, it's like you're breaking out of this winter coma, and you're like, oh, yeah. In a few months, short season is coming. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then in that moment, that's when you realize, like suddenly, there's a lot less options as far as food's concerned. If you want to look like, you know, you haven't been hibernating all winter. That's honestly where a factor has been super helpful. Somewhere between a busy schedule and trying to eat better, cooking every meal just wasn't realistic. In fact, we're solved that with fully prepared meals designed by dietitians and crafted by chefs. Yeah, and the convenience is probably the most important thing to me. They're always fresh, never frozen, and ready to eat in about two minutes. Yeah, it's easy. No planning, no grocery shopping, no cooking, which makes it way easier to actually stick to your goals

52:24instead of giving up halfway through the week or the month. Yeah, and the ingredients matter, too. You're getting lean proteins, colorful vegetables, whole-foot ingredients and healthy fats with no refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners, and no refined seed oils. Yeah, so I actually had the Tex-Max chicken bowl, and it was honestly the best decision I made all day. It felt like a real meal, not just something quick. It was hearty, it was delicious. I felt good afterwards, so really, really happy with it. Yeah, love factor. I've been with them for years now at this point, and the meals I like that they're constantly evolving. Plus, there's a ton of variety as well. 100 rotating weekly meals, so you don't get bored eating the same thing all the time. Yep, and you can choose from high protein, calorie smart, Mediterranean diet, GLP1, which is big right now, ready to eat salads, even the new muscle pro collection, which is perfect if you're getting back into a workout routine. So whether your goal is healthy or eating more protein or just having dinner handled without distress, factor makes that doable. So head over to factor meals.com slash crime weekly 50 off

53:28and use code crime weekly 50 off to get 50% off and free breakfast for a year. This offers only valid for new factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase make healthier eating easy with factor. Hey there, it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway. It is stock up savings time now through April 2nd. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times of points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Goldfish, Keyblur, Doritos, all. M&M's drumstick, outshine and Kellogg's. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pick up or delivery. Restrictions apply, see website for full terms and conditions. Skincare experts and dermatologists have often touted the benefits of indoor humidity as essential for healthy glowing skin. But did you know dry air can start to harm your skin and has little is 30 minutes?

54:29For years, many people have relied on humidifiers for better skin, sleep and overall wellness. But traditional models, bulky, multi-prone and difficult to maintain. That's where canopy humidifier comes in. Recommended by leading dermatologists, canopy is a completely reimagined humidifier designed to elevate any space, offering the ultimate in skin care and wellness benefits. Canopy's clean moisture, come that's dryness, dullness and fine lines, while strengthening the skin's barrier and boosting the effectiveness of topical skincare products. With its sleek design, canopy is the cleanest and easiest humidifier on the market. With its unique technology, cleaning is as easy as popping it in the dishwasher. Go to getcanopy.co to save $25 on your canopy humidifier purchase today with Canopy's filter subscription. Even better, use code podcast to check out to save an additional 10% off your canopy purchase. Your skin will thank you. Somebody had asked if you could face Brian David Mitchell now and stand in front of him, would you do that? Would there be anything you'd have to say to him

55:29or is this kind of like, you're not even on my radar, you're not worth my energy, I have nothing to say to you. Why would I, you don't even exist? No, I don't have anything to say to him. I mean, no, I have no desire to see him or to see Wanda Barzi like, I have no desire to have anything to do with him ever again. What do you think about we talked briefly at the end of the last episode, Wanda getting out and then being arrested because she's in a park where she's not supposed to be and then she says, it's because God told her to go to this park and I said, listen, this woman, we can say what we want about Brian David Mitchell, I don't think there was ever a point where he was insane or didn't know what he was doing. Wanda Barzi on the other hand, the woman's not in her right mind, never has been and I mean, even her own children said, so why is she getting out and then why after she's clearly saying, God told me to go to the park, which either you're manipulating people

56:32and I think she's smart enough to do that or you actually, there's something mentally wrong with you and you need to be someplace where you can be watched. What is her, she got arrested but after she violated a parole, but she's back out, she's out there, not correct? Incredible, it's insane to me, but that's my opinion. What do you think about that and how does it make you feel and what do you think she should be in prison forever because I think she should be in prison forever. 100%. I was, I was very disappointed when she was released. I remember just feeling like she was right there. She watched it happen. She was, you know, she planned. She helped plan the kidnapping. She watched it happen. She prepared me to be raped by him. She encouraged it. She watched, like my mom, when I was little, I remember she told us that if we ever saw bullying like on the school bus or a school,

57:34that if we didn't stick up for that kid that we were a part of the problem. And maybe that stuck in my head, maybe a little bit too much, maybe not, because I look at her and I'm like, well, she didn't stick up for me, she's guilty. And then when you take into account that she had a prior marriage where she had six children in her prior marriage, like six, not one, not two, six. And like whether or not she was a crappy mom, like I don't know, but she kept them alive. And there were six of them. Now Stephanie went into that a little bit. We talked about that as well. And she wasn't a, she wasn't a, she wasn't known to be a great mother now. Yes, I know that's probably no surprise to you. I'm not saying no, we had another question from a Patreon member, her name's Alexandria. She said, what was it like to navigate the court system as a survivor, especially having to testify and face cross-examination? And how do you view the justice systems role in supporting victims or failing survivors

58:35during that process? Because we had some opinions about the defense team and some of the choices they made. Well, as do I. We don't have a justice system. We have a legal system. I will never get back what was taken from me. No one can do that. No one can give back to me what was taken. No one can give back the life that was taken, the experiences taken, the whole life change that came about because of my kidnapping. No one can go back and give me the life that I would have had. No one can go back and give me back my childhood. Like those things are gone. So we have a legal system. And it is not victim-friendly. It is, I know this will never happen. And I'm not trying to sound pessimistic. It's just, it never will. But when it comes to crimes, sex crimes, and specifically, sex crimes against children, it shouldn't be innocent until proven guilty.

59:38It should be guilty until proven innocent. In my opinion, it's not fun. It's awful. I understand why victims don't want to press charges. I understand why they don't want to go through the courts. It's not a pleasant experience. It is a miserable experience. And it feels like the whole court system is giving all the advantage to the perpetrator as opposed to the victim. And I mean, whether that's true or not, that's just how it feels. And it sucks. Yeah, you experienced it. No, we talked about it a lot. We just, for me, in your case, and you already said it, there are some circumstances where allegations can be made and it's a slippery slope there, right? But with your case specifically, it was a no-brainer. Nobody was disputing the fact that he did what he did. And by having those loopholes in the court system, he immediately went to, from being very coherent, in my opinion, during those initial interrogations,

1:00:38to singing Bible verses and hymns and all these different things, because he knew what he needed to do to try to get to that level of being incompetent. So the system was set up for him to try to beat it. Fortunately, he didn't, but to your point, I do think the justice system failed you to a certain degree because I think Wanda is equally culpable, and yet she's walking amongst us today, so that even though you've been able to move on with your life and you have a beautiful family and you're doing a lot of great things, the fact that you as a victim have to know that one of your offenders, in my opinion, they're pretty close to equal in my mind. No, I'm with you. The fact that she's out there that it revictimizes you. You may be strong enough to move past it, but you shouldn't have to. Yeah, I was not happy when she was released, and then I remember the governor coming out and saying, we're gonna keep her on a very short leash. Like we're gonna be watching her. And yes, she's been out now for a long time and apparently that leash disappeared, because- Of course it does, it always does, until they re-offend.

1:01:41And then they'll go, oh, you know, but that's the system. We're sorry, it's the same thing with just sex offenders who get out after committing a heinous act, and then they're on the sex offender registration, and supposedly that's supposed to prevent them from doing it again. Again, I don't wanna go off on a tangent, but yeah, it drives me insane. I mean, I feel like chemical castration should be put on the table, but- It's me. Elizabeth, we knew you were our people, because you know, we get canceled for the shit all the time, but we have no leash for anybody who commits crimes against children over here or crime weekly. It's one of them. We meet there. Okay, good work. It makes me question, like if you can't understand that, then what's in your closet? Yeah, yeah, well, yes, right. No doubt. Which is a whole other kind of- I mean, once again, does it come down to being afraid of offending somebody as opposed to protecting everyone, right? That's where it comes down to when it's like, oh, you know, people are afraid of offending somebody and people wanna be politically correct and nobody wants to get canceled. And what is the price we pay for this surface politeness

1:02:45when under the surface what's really happening is ugly, and we don't want to acknowledge it because it might offend somebody or it might make somebody feel bad or not even just crimes against children, crimes in general with bail reform and how we see people continually get out to commit again, commit again, commit again to the point where it's like, okay, how many times do they have to hurt somebody innocent before we're like, maybe they shouldn't get out again. Absolutely. And, you know, I believe in compassion and I believe in trying to give people the opportunity to change, but no one changes who doesn't want to change. And you should, I don't know what needs to be in place. That's not my job to know what the bar should be, but like- No, it's simple though, if you offend and you're found guilty of a crime against a child, that should be one and done. We should do our jobs as a parent, as adults, to make sure that you can never do it again.

1:03:45Period. Full stop. Did it once, you were convicted, you went through the due process, you were found guilty, we're gonna make sure that you're never able to do it again. I'm not saying it has to be to the extreme of lethal injection, although, depending on the crime, I'm not opposed to that. What I am saying is, at minimum, we're gonna put you in a circumstance where you're incapable of hurting anybody else. That's our job. That's our job as adults. Yeah. Well, we know that you probably have things to do today. You have a family. You have to take care of your kids, and you're very busy. And also, probably at this point, you value the quality time that you get with your family in the evenings and on the weekends and things. So we can wrap this up, Derek, is there anything that you want to say specifically? Or I know there was a few questions you wanted to ask. I got my wandabarsie question in. We get the library question in. I know that a lot of people have said that you are inspiring to them, that they have gone through similar things,

1:04:47and it's really helped them to see your strength. And I mean, there was a question that we had from Patreon, which I'm also curious about, because it's been a long time at this point between then and now. And they wanted to know, is there any current fallout? Like, do you still go through periods of unexplained anger, depression, isolation? How are you managing your mental health now? Is it pretty much something that you have compartmentalized? And you're like, hey, I'm not going to let it bleed into today. I'm focused on living now. Or are there still times when it sneaks up on you? I feel like things are pretty well compartmentalized for me. I mean, I do quite a bit of speaking and presentations and with that comes a lot of like meeting greets afterwards. And I definitely have come to recognize, like, I have a bandwidth. Like, I, and once that bandwidth is hit, like, like, I need to be done.

1:05:48I would say, like, the bandwidth is pretty, I've got a pretty decent one. But also, like, that kind of comes a time I'm like, okay, I just need to like have a few days where no one needs anything from me except my kids, because they're not going to need anything from me. That's like, read this book about being abducted or, you know, like the things they need from me are like, what's for breakfast? What's for dinner? Like, did you get my book? Did you do this? I can deal with that. So yeah, I definitely find myself like making sure I need to just like, recognize when that bandwidth is done, like, take some time away before coming back in, because otherwise, yeah, that's one it. If I don't have that, that's kind of when I start to virus, not the right word, but it starts to, it starts to bleed in a little bit. I become less polite to be around. Yeah. And if you heard like my inner dialogue, you'd be like, holy cow, she is nasty.

1:06:49Well, I mean, I get it. Derek sees me hide under the table sometimes at conventions because I've, it's a socially tapped out. Yeah, she's done. It's true crime and you have people that come up to you when they tell you their stories, because they, a lot of people are interested in true crime who have gone through it or family members and things like that, and we meet family members of people who are missing who have been murdered. And when you're an empathetic person, you absorb it, you absorb it, you absorb it. And then there's only so much until you're like, okay, I need to step back and that goes back to listening to yourself, right? Like you were saying, listen to your instincts. Hey, I've had enough right now and I can't be of any help to anybody if I'm not whole and if I'm not strong. So I need to step back and take some time because you don't want it to bleed in. You kind of have to keep up a certain amount of protection and a certain level of borders. And then if those start to fall, you need, you need to know you have to step back and take care of yourself. And I think that goes back to listening to yourself. I mean, and that's like, I would say that's true of like,

1:07:52like media I consume or like like when my kids go to bed and I'm like, oh, I want to watch the show or whatever. Like if he turns on something that's like, violent, I'm like, nope, can't do this. They're like, honestly, like even like documentary. Oh, absolutely. So I'm like, well, I can't watch. This is going to be a book night. You feel free. You watch that. I'm going to sit over here and read my book that has nothing to do with any of these things. Are you just watching Gilmore Girls for the 50 Fits time? I mean, for me, it's the British baking show, but yeah, all he has, all right. Or like, there was that book with a crawdad sing. Yeah, like my friend reddened. She's like, oh, you'll love it. She's like, this is my favorite book. And I read it and she's like, what do you think of it? And I was like, I hated it. Yeah, actually, like it's sad. I mean, it's well written. Yes, I'm like, do I feel bad that that guy died? No, I don't feel bad. Am I like happy? He died. Sure, I'm happy he died. But like, it's just not, it's not realistic.

1:08:54How many victims actually turn around and kill their perpetrator? Not very many. And the ones that do have the time, they're the ones that end up behind bars. Like, how many cases of that have we seen? We've seen that, right? Yeah, no, yeah. Or like when I saw the movie Finding Nemo, I feel like that came out shortly after I was rescued. And like, I went to see it with like a group of friends and we went and saw it and I was like, oh, it's so cute. It's so cute. It just keeps swimming. And I was like, I hated it. And they're like, I actually hate it. And I was like, kidnapping is not fun. You don't get kidnapped. And like go to some cool new place, make all these cool new friends and plan an escape like it's a big adventure. I was like, that is not what kidnapping is. And now I know this is like a kid's movie and this is me going off on it. But I'm just saying, like, That's an interesting perspective, actually. Your friends are sitting there with them. Yeah, like, can't watch a movie with Elizabeth. Pretty much.

1:09:56Because it's simplifying something that's simplifying and kind of making something seem innocent that in reality, if it was really happening and it wasn't a cartoon, would not be simple or innocent. So I completely, I've never thought of that perspective and that's very interesting. I get you can't, I mean, if you tried to like, keep everyone's sensitivities in mind, like you couldn't make anything. It would just be a white screen, right? You're always going to set someone or offend someone. So I guess a small of the story is just like, be the best you can be, live life the best you can do. Not everyone's going to love you too. It's better just to be honest. No, I mean, listen, if we, if it was up to us, we could talk to you for five hours. We've been talking about you now for five weeks. So having you here, it's, you know, it was weird the whole time hearing about you, knowing that I had already met you. But we want to be respectful of your time. I will let everybody know. We had a lot of questions come in. We didn't get to all of them. We tried to integrate them and honestly, Elizabeth, you answered a lot of them without us even asking you. So I think a lot of the questions I'm looking at right now

1:10:58from our Patreon members, from the YouTube page, from Apple Podcasts, we tried to get to a lot of them, can't get to all of them. But if you want, you can go pick up Elizabeth's new book, Detours, I saw it's available on Amazon right now. It's probably available in bookstores as well. And she has multiple books. My story is there one more? Yeah, my second book was called Where There's Hope. Where there's Hope. So there's three different books you can go to. Where can they follow you, Elizabeth, for what channels you're comfortable sharing? Where would people, if they want to follow you now on your journey? I'm on Instagram, Elizabeth Smart Official. My foundation is on Instagram, Facebook, which is just Elizabeth Smart Foundation, really original. I know. I mean, you can go to ElizabethSmart.com or ElizabethSmartFoundation.org. I recently started a YouTube channel. So how we saw, we got you, we got your video. When you were going to the campsite, yeah. Yep. Which was, by the way, just incredible that you were willing to go back there. And the way you talk about it, it's very grounded where I can follow you. But then I think about the context.

1:11:58And I'm like, the fact that she's back there is just incredible that you're willing to go face that head on. Even though I mean, it's been years later, a lot of people wouldn't have the strength to do that. Oh, yeah, still. Yeah, it's incredible. Also, it was a docu-series on Netflix, right? It was a multiple episodes. I just documented just one. Documentary kidnapped, right? Kidnapped ElizabethSmart on Netflix as well. Very successful. We appreciate you being here. You didn't have to do that. And I appreciate you coming on and spending some time with us. And we just wish the best for you. Anything we can do to help in the future, for anything you have going on and your advocacy efforts, you have my number reach out where there for you. Okay, thank you so much. Thank you so much, have a good night. You too. So we are so grateful to Elizabeth for coming on and talking to us. And Derek said this before, we started filming the outro. We could have talked to her four hours and hours. And I know that everybody had questions. And as Derek said to Elizabeth, I think a lot of those questions were addressed and answered during the conversation with Elizabeth, which I would love to sit down with her,

1:13:01have some time to really dive deeper into the whole psychology and trauma aspect, because I think that her perspective could help so many people. But as I said, I do believe that her book, the one that she just came out with December of 2025, would be so helpful, because there was so many of you in the comments and in the questions who have gone through horrible things and are struggling with that as the passage of time goes on. And I really do think I read this book. I found it to be incredibly, as she said, a companion to return to. And I have returned to it multiple times. So I do think it would be very, very helpful, a comfort and a guide and a compass for many people who have voiced their struggles because it is very well written. And like I said, her perspective on this is very important and relevant. So check that out. Thank you all so much for being here, Derek. No, thank you to Elizabeth.

1:14:03She didn't have to do this. You could kind of see she was doing it from her home. She's doing a lot of interviews, especially with the Netflix thing. So I appreciate her taking some time to hop on here and speak with us and answer a few of our questions. And again, thank you to all the commenters who left questions. Thank you to our new Patreon members. The Patreon thing, cute success. We actually sold out of the partner and crime tiers. Give us a couple of months to see if we can handle that amount and maybe we'll open it up. Stephanie's already like, can we open it up for a couple more people? And I would love to. I just don't want to decorate the quality of what we're doing. We want to make sure we treat everybody's request with equal care. So let us just get a grip on it and we'll go from there. We're going to do the bonus episode. We're going to have to live this month. So if you're subscribed to Patreon, you're still going to get all of that. But yes, thank you to everybody for the questions. Thank you to Elizabeth. We appreciate you being here. We'll be back next week with a new crime weekly news, new crime weekly episode. This case we're going to talk about, a little bit more obscure. It's going to be a good one. Yes. We won't spoil it here. So until then, everyone stay safe out there and we'll see you soon.

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