Rugby Direct Episode 258: One Last Shot at the Springboks

0:00You're listening to a podcast from NewsTorxidbe. Follow this and our wide-ranger podcast now on iHardRadio. Stuck down the middle. Drop it down, score! Place your fighters going dry! Bees, palms! To the right! Then I back it inside the game from every angle. It's rugby direct with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier, powered by NewsTorxidbe. Welcome into rugby direct powered by Anxier Solutions, elevating you and your business to a higher level Elliott Smith. And not with me, Liam Napier. Yes, as we mentioned on the last podcast out of Johannesburg, Liam didn't come to the United States, left me and my herald colleague Gregor Paul Tseward. And we'll hear from Gregor in a moment or two got Gregor's thoughts on the all black team that has been named for this fourth test match here in Baltimore. I only arrived into Baltimore now, recording this 10.30am on Friday morning New Zealand time, half past six on a Thursday evening.

1:09I only got in today, had a look around the city briefly. Look, there is not much of a fuel that this test match is obviously going on. But you look at the Emente Bank Stadium and there's a lot of signage around there. I spoke to my Uber driver, early get in the day, who was well aware that the rugby match was on this weekend. I think there's probably a sense from people that live in around the city that there is a rugby match on. But obviously the Raven starting the NFL season this weekend against the Indianapolis cults away from home. That'll take much of the attention for the city. And that tends to be the case in these big American city. So a bit of work for World Rugby to do as they count down to 20.31 and the men's rugby World Cup that will take place here. Obviously the all black team name, they need to win to draw the series against the spring box. It's been a weird week because they gone from being full noise intensity around the series to differently having the gears being taken off this week.

2:11Just with the lack of attention that it's garnered both in Washington DC and now in Baltimore. But make no mistake, this is still an all blacks and spring box test and the all blacks are absolutely desperate to win this match and finish the series at two. They don't want to draw, sorry, lose the series and make that three losses in a row to the old foe. So plenty on the line between these two sides on Sunday morning New Zealand time later kick off as well. 9 a.m. A couple of things around the team that I'll tell you before we play the chat with Gregor. But a sickness around the team this week we spoke with Dave Renny an hour or so ago before I recorded this and he said that they had a fair bit of gastro coming off the plane from South Africa. Farbeen Holland has been ruled out through sickness. He said it was early in the week. They would have actually struggled to put together a team. So maybe Greg wrong myself might have actually got a game for the all blacks. But fortunately, it sounds like everyone that they wanted to select on the ground apart from Holland was fit and ready to go.

3:15Big story line is obviously Richie Wonger starting at 10 is first to start since the 2023 World Cup final. Dave Renny stressing very much at the media conference today that they've been happy with Ruben Love. That's the reason they started them in the biggest game that Renny term since the 23 World Cup final. But they also need to grow some depth and have a look at other options like Richie Wonger. That's the reason behind that change. Got black at it. It opened inside Flanker. I think that's a fairly self-expedantry in terms of being a like for like replacement for Luke Jacobson or as close to one as you could find. And Cody Taylor the captain of this all blacks team this week with the absence of Arty Saviour. I guess Luke Jacobson as well who would have been perhaps odds on to captain the same. Should he be fit but obviously he's had to head home due to injury. Otherwise in the back line look at Antelent Brown comes in at center. Josh Moby comes into the starting left wing booth and on the bench Rico Yawani and Bodim Barrett cover the backs and suffer more dropping back to the bench this week as well.

4:24Alright rugby direct. Let's catch up with New Zealand hero rugby columnist Grigor Paul on rugby direct to get his thoughts on this all black side. Well Grigor much changed all blacks team for this weekend. Has Dave Renny made the right calls do you think? I think we knew there were going to be changes. He talked all to about probably using it up to about 30 players across the series. We saw a few changes last week. Summer injury enforced. Summer about refreshing the team again. Pretty similar this week. Summer injury enforced and summer about refreshing the team. It's pretty hard to go for tests in a row. I know that the South Africans are doing that with a few of their senior players. I wanted to all blacks are doing that but I think the team will clearly with no saviour, no look Jacobson, no help me quintupeier. Three senior players to lose and we're going to see three changes there. I think it was almost likely Richie Mawango was going to get a start. He's been brought back for a reason.

5:32He said he's had all the game time so far. I think that was pretty obvious. Rick O'Youani has been sharp on tour. Ethan Blackadder comes in for Luke Jacobson. I think Ethan Blackadder has Luke Jacobson 2.0 similar player tough rugged. So where's the number 7, Josie? Paddy to Piloto has surprised me a wee bit because the semt have gone off him a wee bit on the tour but again I think they might want a heavy wee ball carrier to punch up the middle of the field and the change at tight head I think reflects maybe the scrummaging form that Fletcher Nielson when he's come on. There's zero in on Richie Mawango because that's probably the headline selection. I guess from many people now Ruben Lover started every test match to the point to this point. There's so far this year but now they've made a little bit of a change. Does this signal they're not happy with Ruben Lover or do they want to expand their options for me? I think they want to expand and go. We can't just go with one first five to the next year's World Cup and as it stands, but Barrett seeing more as a fallback and so to Damien McKenzie.

6:34I think you've kind of answered your own question there to an extent. Next question. No, I think there's a little bit of both the little bit of everything in there. Now they'll be very happy with Ruben Lover. He's a young player. He has never started a test match at number 10 until the beginning of this year. If he hasn't played a huge amount of first class rugby at number 10 because of Hurricane's adamant fallback. I think he's been brilliant for his experience. He struggled a wee bit maybe in Cape Town. He struggled a wee bit maybe in Soweto. That's line speed, that's pressure, that's a lot of things going against the old legs. He didn't go kick all that well in Soweto. He's a guy that has put on the record he wants to be the best player in the world. He will have learned a huge amount all season but particularly in South Africa he would have learned a huge amount. I don't know, they'll be really happy with him. But look, they need to develop options. We know that guys get injured particularly at number 10. Moonga has come home. They've paid them to come home. They've lewd them back.

7:38This was always going to happen. They were always going to have to manufacture an opportunity to put them in the team. This one seems about right. Love, it's probably due a little bit of a break. What it does mean is that that jersey is competitive again. The Ben X expectation that Moonga is out there to see, hey, you've got the young buck playing but look at me. I can play, put me in the team. We've seen Bodden Barrett named on the bench this week. That hasn't been traditionally a specialist playmaker. Women's Endaverne do that in a game so far this year. What do you think that signals? Is it a case of maybe Moonga's not up to playing 80 minutes of test rugby yet? I think again, Barrett covers full Becky, covers 10. He's got 144 test caps. This is a huge game. When we can play a role in the narrative as much as you like and say, well, it's here in America. It's serious, it's over. It's not over. As much as traditionalists like myself and I think you don't really like the fact that they've got this game tacked on. We have to get over that fact because it is here. It is a fourth game and it does mean that New Zealand have got the opportunity to level things up.

8:45Above all else, I don't really want to lose three in a row. There's a lot of psychological damage that can be done here. Bodden, I think, is in there because he's at a tough old season but he's starting to come right. He's a player that they can put in a full back. If they're not happy with Moonga, they can put Bodden in at 10. But maybe things are tight in the final 20 minutes and look Barrett, surely he can be a game changer off the bench. It's how he started his career. It's how he kind of re-impressed in 2024 when Scott Robertson clearly wasn't sure about him and he fired his way back in to be a starting player again. A lot of people have the doubts about Bodden. I understand that. He's 35. He didn't have a great blue season. I haven't got any doubts about him. I don't think, but like Dan Carter and similar situation and 214-215, the guy can play. He knows what he's doing. I think a big occasion coming off the bench, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't make a really impactful contribution. The midfield is interesting to me. Anton Lennor Brown has sent a replacement in Quinter Pire. Anton is a really good replacement off the bench for people of question that what he's doing coming off the bench.

9:53But I think he's a good two- I see the Jorri Barrett or Quinter Pire, but I don't know. You can have both of them together. I would have rather gone with Arrico Yawani for that punch in the middle of the park. But we heard Dave Rennie say last week that Anton's a bit of defensive player. Are they zeroing in on that reason? Do you think by starting him this week? Well, I sounded like it last week when Dave Rennie gave quite a detailed and critical answer about it. The question was actually about Rico Yawani rather than Anton Lennor Brown. Any kind of managed to put a few put downs in there, which is obviously what they're talking to Rico about behind the scenes. Clearly they wouldn't say it to us if they weren't saying it to him. So yeah, probably they feel that work, like Dave Rennie loves work rate. He clearly has a relationship with Anton. They played at Kobe with him to the overlap at the chieftain. So Dave got it. Yeah, they did. Yeah, they did. So yeah, there's, look, sometimes coaches have a relationship with the player. They know that guy better than the other ones. So they lean into that.

10:53But they've obviously measured Anton's work rate. They like the way Jantzont has feet. Rico Yawani to me. He looked, he slimmed down. He's about four kilos lighter. He looks quick again. He's impressed. On that element, like when he's had the ball, he's looked like his old self. But I haven't watched him in the same detail or tracked him in the way that the Oblux have to say, well, actually, yeah, he's not covering the ground defensively. I mean, I've felt that Rico was a massively improved defender as a center, as he played in that position after 2019. And to the point where by the World Cup, he felt like he was one of the best. So I'm a wee bit surprised that Dave has said Anton's the better defender. Maybe that's to do with work rate. I don't know. I think a lot of criticism about Rico, how he used the ball last year and the year before. But there was never any criticism about his defense. But maybe we're not, maybe we know nothing about the game earlier. Maybe we're not watching the right things. Quite possible. Cody Taylor is Captain, interesting selection, although not really surprising.

11:55Jodie Barrett probably the other option, but I think they're like a Ford to be Captain. But he wasn't selected last week. They went with our Moore, who I thought played really well. Now they've gone back to Cody Taylor. Is that solely because of the captain's seed, you think? No, I don't think so. I think if you look at Cody, he hadn't been injured prior to coming on to. He wasn't fit enough to play until the Bulls game, which was a Saturday before the first test. So he played in that game and then he played two test matches. So in essence, he'd played three in a row, coming back from injury. And he battled a wee bit in Cape Town physically. So I was curious, he was a wee bit off. So I think they said, well, you need a week off. But it's hard when you come back from injury to keep stacking the games back to back to back. So I think that's what that was about. I didn't read it as a changing of the guard at that point. I mean, our Moore is the man that everyone is looking at right now. He's a little bowl of muscle. He's just a cannon that you can fire at the opposition and he can sort of splatter them around a wee bit.

13:00Why not throwing a wee bit to be worked on? So the our Moore is a crowd-placer, but he's a bit more than that as well. He's pushing really, really hard on Coddy. But I think Coddy's the guy that you're going to keep in the squad through the World Cup. And our Moore is the guy that's going to put a lot of pressure on him. And you're going to have them start and swap off the bench. And you can play around with that, which they should have due for the remainder of the season. This game, as you said before, quite weird in many regards. It feels like it's gone under the radar this week, even from our own sort of being in a different city to where the game is. Moved countries to the United States, all that sort of thing. But can the all blacks turn around the last couple of weeks and get a series draw out of this, do you think? Yeah, look, I think they can. Excuse me, to the point, their own sense at the exceptionally close to the spring box. I don't doubt that. I don't dispute it in any way. I think it's fair for them to say, yeah, the first text actually could have gone, I think, so I think I'll walk away from that one going cheaper as we were one scramble away from winning that one.

14:08But again, you look at the look two and three and you can you can make arguments to say New Zealand, one play, whatever it might be, one kick off caught in Soweto. And it's a different, it's a different game. So or different outcome. So look, I think that would hear. I feel a bit of the heirous come out of the thing because we've been in South Africa, we were in South Africa for a long time. It felt like the all blacks were clearly chasing two wins over there. And I don't think they would go ahead with one the series, but they would have a mini celebration at that point because it would have been a series within a series. So, but they'll be pretty motivated to win. I think they're taking the whole four testing seriously. But yeah, look, I think they've got to show that they've learned how to beat South Africa because they've manipulated them. They've scored 13 tries. Shouldn't they get around the outside of them? They haven't gone through the middle of them too much. But they've got to improve this scrum. Whatever, well, I don't care who's cheating, who's not cheating. So, the outcome has to be bittersweet for you to. Because you cannot have an all black pack going backwards at the rate of knots that they were for that penalty try.

15:15You can't have a rolling wall start outside the 22 and end up under the pulse and a try when you're the all black sets. That's not okay. You can't have that. So, all the talk about, oh, what is this happening and that was happening. That just needs to be fixed. And that can't happen again. And if they can do that and hold or withstand the physicality that South Africa are producing, then I think they've shown that the better at using the ball than South Africa. 13 tries to make Blair talking about that. You know, we're talking to Mike Blair about that. It's a wee celebration for them. They can't say, hey, we score 13 tries and hey, but we didn't win the series. But it is an indication that they can attack, that they understand their attack game and it is working 13 against South Africa. That is a lot because they typically only give away one or two max in a game. Just finally, obviously, as you said, in Baltimore, I don't think either of us are huge fans of the Takedon 4th game. We were at the Baltimore Ravens facility, got it lucky enough to have a tour of that earlier today.

16:19Funnily, I think my Uber driver did know this match was on, so any questions around that regard. But it's hard to get a sense. You're on from being in the pressure cooker leading up to the series, the test series of all the tour games in South Africa. And to your point before about the, you know, the air coming out of the series a little bit, you go from it being everywhere you look to being nowhere essentially you look. I don't think that's actually healthy for the series as a concept, even if you are managing to cash in a little bit. No, I don't think it's healthy for the series. I think it's going to be sold out, so that's fine. But I think I would imagine that the vast majority of tickets have been sold to X-Pet South Africa and some Kiwis. And the USC rugby fraternity that would love, they would love in the fact that these big games are getting played here like we would go down NFL game if it was played an Auckland type thing. So, yeah, I don't love it for the, for the series. You know, we're actually thinking about five minutes away from New Zealand rugby chief executive Steve Lancaster. I had a chat with him yesterday, yeah, sort of asked him these questions and he, he, he, he got a bit sprightly in return about, no, no, look,

17:23it's a whole new group of people that get to come to watch. Very important for us to be here. We're spreading the gospel, we're taking RGR and showing how good this rivalry is to hone your mind. So, yeah, you can make all these, all these stories and, yeah, look, they're, they are making a lot of money by the way, $7 million. It's the most, yeah, each team is the most lucrative game in New Zealand or the old decks have ever played one off. So, I mean, if you're going to sell your soul, I suppose sell it for something, you know, that, that's top dollar. But again, I just wonder if all that, you know, you can, you can always make, you can't use money, making money as an argument to trump everything else because then you become a drug dealer almost because you can, you can make any argument you like to say, I don't think that's a healthy proposition. But, you know, they're here. It might be a great game and we might feel differently at the end. So, Greg, I pulled there joining us on rugby directors. I see a bit of a different rugby director for you this week. We'll check our diaries, hopefully catch up with Liam to wrap up the series at some point over the next wee while once he's back in New Zealand and once we are back in New Zealand as well.

18:36We'll have an update for you on that in the next wee while. But in the meantime, the old black is looking to draw the series against South Africa 9 AM on Sunday morning. You can catch it live on Newstalk ZB. Look forward to your company. Then, thanks to Mark Kelly for producing as always and rugby director powered by XC solutions, elevating you and your business to a higher level. For more from Newstalk ZB, listen live, on air or online and keep our shows with you wherever you go with our podcasts on I-Hard Radio.