Remembering Dolly Parton's Musical and Philanthropic Legacy

0:00It's on! Tally Parton died last week after more than 60 years, delighting us with her music, performance, quick-witted interview appearances, big blonde wigs, boob jokes, her books, movies, theme parks, and probably most importantly, the legacy of philanthropy that will continue long into the future. She was a planner and a hard worker, so she made sure of that. There are only three contemporary heroes I revere, and Dali was at the top, so I wanted to talk about her life and legacy with some of the smartest women I could think of. Later on, we'll have country artists, Shelley Wright and Rolling Stone culture writer, Marissa Moss, to talk about Dali's musical impact. But at first is a professor of sociology and certified Daliologist, Tressi McMillan-Cottom, who's a wonderful writer about Dali, and we share a great love of country music, and I'm excited to talk to her.

1:01I think it's important to talk about our heroes. We talk so much about we don't like in the world, and everybody likes Dali, but it's more than that. It's more than something we can agree on. The way she lived her life was a map for the rest of us, even if we can't reach it. And it's really important to talk about what she means and what she's going to mean to the future, because I have a feeling she'll continue to have an enormous impact, so stick around. Thank you for coming on on. It's a real pleasure to be here. So Dali Barton was 80 years old, and she herself had talked about her health issues for months, so it's not a shock. But it still felt like a shock, because she was quite vibrant in those communications, and had that aura of being sort of eternal in a lot of ways. The outpouring online has been extensive. Like, it's all new kind of stuff. I just first, what was your experience on hearing

2:04that she had died? I'm a university professor by day, it's my day job, and I was in a research meeting, and we just opened the meeting. And you know, you opened the laptop, and I hadn't turned off, turned on the do-not-disturbed, just yet, which meant I saw the text message from my editor, and it was just two words, Dali died. I immediately ended the meeting. Everyone understood, by the way, I went back to apologize everyone later, and they were like, oh no, no, no, no, no. Like, this is important. Everyone understood that something really significant had happened, and I also really appreciate how many people thought it would be significant to me, but I think a lot of people felt that way, that this is something that had happened to them, which I just think speaks to Dali's ability to make us feel like we are in a relationship with her. You know, it's a social issue. It's weird. It's weird, you know, for everyone, but I think Dali Parton did one of the best jobs of making it feel less weird for people. This was the pair of social relationships, I used to say, that I really want this one to go to distance.

3:05You know, if she can just survive, Black Lives Matter, me too, like I just, everything, everyone that would come up, and she just kept nailing it, you know? And right to the end, right to the end, it was the relationship that had been worth it. I've been listening to Dali since very young age. I was a bit, I'm not a likely country music fan, but I am. You know, I've been listening to all country music, Rebo, you know, all of them, every one of them. Of course, like you have to be going down that path. Unlikely, but also the same. Yes, exactly. And my son actually called me and said, are you okay? Like, because I had made him listen so much to Dali Parton over the course of his life. And she was sort of the central figure. And then there was all kinds of blue grass around her and everything else. Yeah. In the wake of her passing, you wrote a wonderful piece in the Times. And there were so many pieces. Look, everyone sort of had their reflections on Dali Parton. Whether there are stories, it was interesting online. There were regular people who just, like, someone who she gave a coat to, gave a wonderful story. I saw that one, Chip.

4:06Did you see that one? That was like, you know, oddly enough, everyone had like an interesting story, and they all had the similar kind of thing. But I really appreciated your piece because you were talking about her as a writer. So you talk a little bit more about the dedication to her craft and how it inspired your own writing. I really took issue with the way a person had been as famous for as long as Dali Parton had been famous, but yet hadn't been treated seriously. We're like, how does someone do that? How do they accomplish that? So, you know, the entrepreneurship taken her seriously as a business strategist, which by all accounts, she was a killer business person. In fact, as said, many times in herself, that she was proud of her business, acumen, and her success. And on the flip side, for me as a writer, I thought, we haven't taken her craft seriously. And it was clear that she was deeply proud of her writing ability and would say over and over again, the way that I want to be known is as a writer. And she was also deeply confident about it,

5:08which was very inspiring to see a woman, I think especially of her generation, for all the humility that, you know, I think she performed while being ridiculously famous and ridiculously wealthy, the one place where she allowed herself to own what she was was when it came to her writing. How does someone who does not come from a place where we think of our great writers emerging right from from the Appalachian Mountains, from generational poverty, just be so committed to the fact that she's a creative person with craft. And I've seen her hold her own against men, you know, major musicians and say, no, I'm a writer, I'm a very good writer. In fact, if you're lucky, and if you're lucky, I'll let you write with me. And I thought I wanted to give her the opportunity, and frankly, for myself, very selfish. I just say the same thing, the one interview I wish I could do was with Dolly Parton, but I would only talk about her writing, how she thinks about it, how she approaches it,

6:10how it has developed over her career and over her lifetime. And I thought that we'd gotten to the end of her life, and that she did not get a chance to see us really appreciate her craft the way things start. Exactly. Well, she also put that in your way. There's so much noise. She was so much noise. There was so, and she knew it. Right, there was so much hiding in plain sight, kind of situation, because the words were out there. So you saw the craft, right? But what was interesting is everybody was looking at all this, which I think was part of it. You know, when she joked about being in drag, in drag, I was like, you are. You actually are, but it's part of the messaging that you're trying to do. And I was always like, and I think she enjoyed it. I don't think it was to hide in a painful way, oddly enough. That is saying, I always think of our great comedians or that way. You know, I think of Robin Williams, for example, who, you know, there's always this vulnerability and pain. But if they're genius, the thing about dollies

7:11is that there wasn't. There was just this really core sense of, if not happiness and joy, but she was of comfort. She was very comfortable. And to see that kind of creative genius without the pathos, I also thought was a really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And I always wondered how she achieved that. Right. Right. It's interesting because you sort of compared a loretta Lin or a, you know, a Patsy Klein, which is just aching with pain, right? Like exactly. Or almost any of them, even Reba, with my favorite song of all time, which is Fancy. But same. One of the things in your essay, and when it stick with it, was The Bridge. First talk a little bit about that song and how you talked about it within the essay you wrote about The Bridge, which is an incredible song, especially at the time when she sang it. That's right. You know, I think she, in the 60s, right, in the early 60s, when she sang it for the first time. The idea, like, you know, now it kind of sounds, you know, glib to say, but to realize that she writes the song about a young pregnant girl whose boyfriend,

8:12the father, has abandoned her. And she's standing at a bridge, you know, kind of like the ode to Billy Joe. Billy Joe. Billy Joe, right? Was she standing at the bridge, but Dolly finished a story where she's contemplating suicide? The pain and the reality of living as a young woman, you know, before Roe versus Wade is what she's capturing, but she's also capturing, I think, there. The pain of that when you are poor, where marriage, when you are a young girl from a poor place, it is not just about love and visibility and safety in your community, it's about, like, economic security. And I always thought that wasn't thread, but he dolly's vulnerability in her writing, which is that, you know, the decisions about who we love when you come from a place where she comes from is really about more than just love and romance. It's about having her home. It's about having land, it's about having some economic security. I'm listening to the song and I knew the song. Yes, it's not one of her best known, it's earlier in her career. It didn't get played on radio because it's as far to progressive,

9:13but you didn't tell her. You didn't tell her. You didn't tell her. You didn't tell her. That's right. Which speaks to how much power she had gotten from Porter Wagner, right? That she was able to do that. And then she wanted to do it. You kissed me for the first time here and help me. Oh, every time. And the bridge became a favorite place. We came here often in the night. And so I knew the song, I kind of knew it intellectually. I knew it was important, you know, so that Southern Gothic storytelling, which is actually what I think dolly was her best, was so good at that stuff. But then I'm listening to it in my 30s, right? And I just had a really devastating pregnancy loss. As you know, everybody has their traumas. This one's just mine. It's not special, but it's the one that happened to me. And I know when I lose that baby, that I'm just not going to have children in it. And choosing not to have children is very different than the choice being made for you. And I was in my car and the silence was just too loud.

10:15I just flipped on the radio. Didn't want to hear commercial, so I turned on college radio. And for whatever reason, they were doing some retrospective and they were playing this song. And I just started weeping. I had to pull the car over, in fact. And I remember thinking, I've listened to the song so many times, but I never understood it until I needed to understand what it would mean to be that desperate and that scared and alone, which is very much how I was feeling. With our own more child. And at the end of that song, I really was a different person. I mean, I kind of got on with the business of life after that. And it was just spoke to the way that I think a piece of art can find you when you need it. But somebody has to be brave enough to do it for us. And I think dollars just did that over and over again.

11:17And many songs, many of her songs, so many. I was thinking of traveling through about trans people way before anybody. You know, was being supportive of the trans culture. So talk a little bit about that. Her place in American culture and history. And I think a lot of people, of course, are pointing to the fact that everybody liked her. And I am a long time attendee of Dollywood. And one of the things that I loved about it was that when you went there, like literally red necks, gaze, as people. And everybody was there. In a really jolly way. And the minute you walked outside, it was more like long. Exactly. You get the pigeon forage and you see the world's biggest gun store. And you're like, what? I think it is so fascinating that it exists right there. And I have got this, yeah. Right outside the gates of Dollywood, it is like a, you know, yeah, you're back in the real world. In fact, you know, I've walked down that main street where they've got all the, you know, the shops and everything. And they've got, you know, lawn jockeys and Aunt Jamama dolls. They're going to go there.

12:17And then, you know, here I am, this black woman walking through. And then you enter into Dollywood. And it is her vision of what she thinks her culture really should be and could be. I really think of Dollywood as being her trying to say the country, people, the southern people, the Appalachian people, I know are capable of this. And if I create the right world and the right boundaries for it, people will see my people the way that I've seen them, which is that they are not inherently racist or classes. Dumb or racist. Right. Dumb or racist, right. That this can happen. And it is one of the few places in country music, you know, popular country music, live shows and thing parks, that kind of thing where I have felt comfortable. And that's, you know, that's a story so many people have. I've gone to a Dolly Park and Concert. And at the height, by the way, of like, Trump 1.0, right? Where, you know, you've got people who have clearly pulled up, you know, in the pickup trucks, flags, waving.

13:18And are standing in line to get inside with like, you know, a gaggle of drag queens. There's almost no place else in this country that I didn't think about. So why was that? You know, you called her an NSA. This was our unproblematic faith. Like, yeah. What, why? Why this person? I think we could spend a lifetime trying to unpack that, which is, you know, part of what I've done really is that this is not even my core work. I'm just fascinated by her. And I think some of it is she defused the big, strong emotions that have come to define our political and civic life. You know, nobody now can just roll their eyes. Everything now has to be, you know, a knockdown drag out, nuclear war between people. We've lost all the affect in the middle. And something about the way Dolly treated these things that were being ginned up as these major conflicts, right? She'd come in and she'd go, well, no, you think, uh, we're the only people, you know, think I really white asses and only people who matter.

14:20Of course, black lives matter. Do we think our little white asses, are the only ones that matter? No. She just almost would write size, the cultural conflict, so the size it should be, which is just, this is not even a big deal. Right. Something about her ability to do that, I think would reset people's emotions. She's seen it online, you know, everything is set to 10. Right. You can't just say, hey, I'm not into this. 12. Right exactly. 12. 20 is where we're headed. You can't just say, you know, not my thing, right? But Dolly had a way of reminding you that you had, you had another option. And she said, if you want to enjoy me and we really wanted to enjoy her, you will do it this way. Right. She's reminding me sometimes like a kindergarten school teacher, which sets the roles and holds the boundaries while lovingly and kindly. Right. But she did that for adults. That's great. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. What, from your perspective, as a sociological phenomena, is there, are there versions of her over time?

15:22Or how do you look at that? I can't think of it. In Franklin? No, I can't. I think. Either, and part of it is, you know, she is a singular person, but she's also, you know, becoming Dolly Parton in a moment where like all of these things make that even possible. Right. So some of what I've thought about is the grief of losing her, but it's also the grief of losing. Like, I just don't think we produce that type of popular artist anymore. We're just way too fragmented now. I think for Dolly Parton to really emerge. But also one that existed before the sort of performative politics that every celebrity now must have, or she didn't get sullied, I think, by all of that the way a young artist would now. And so it's not just that Dolly Parton was singular. She happened in a moment where only Dolly Parton, I think, could have happened. But no, maybe there are some in various communities. And here's something like a Paul Robus in it one time, but who was deeply hated, however, by the majority. But he was wildly popular in that sort of way that confounded expectations.

16:25But no, I find it is very hard to think of another artist. Not a Taylor Swift, for example, who would be her, her, her similar, right? I mean, gifted songwriter, gifted business person. Yeah. Hugely popular, whether, but she has quite an angry, an angry group at her. And cannot, this is what I mean about Dolly's ability to sort of shape her fandom. No popular celebrity anymore can shape their fandom the way that she did. You know, you think about the beehive of Beyonce, who are known as being, particularly vicious to people online. And deserved the sweet. And you know, you got to retake the call line when they go. And the same like Taylor Swift, right? But they can't, they cannot sort of shape their fandom, I think, in the way that Dolly could, or neutralize the opposition, the way that Dolly could. They just don't have that skill. Her politics were obviously liberal, like so obviously, deeply,

17:26even further to, I was like, she's far left and I am. Like, you know what I mean? I mean, I'm something. Talk about that. Why did it work for her? Because she was, by all, so like feminism, the Black Lives Matter thing you mentioned. That was a big deal. The vaccines, vaccines, all. Yes. It wasn't a little statement. It wasn't, it was a big statement. No. All those things were big statements. I think she really leaning on, I mentioned this in my column. You know, we have this, which I think you probably are familiar with that. I know how much we have in common here. You would call it country dumb, which is leaning into people's low expectations of you while navigating and getting done what you want to get done. And Dolly Parton is one of the best at this that I've ever seen. So I think part of it, I think the vaccine case is a really good example of this. She knows it's deeply unpopular. Right. So one thing is that Dolly was very smart, very well read, understood, I think a political moment at that sort of like visceral level that really brilliant people do and could quickly prescribe.

18:29Right. What needed to happen? Well, hey, it's me. I'm finally going to get my vaccine. I'm so excited. I've been waiting while I'm old enough to get it and I'm smart enough to get it. So I'm very happy that I'm going to get my Moderna shot today. And I wanted to tell everybody, thank you, should get out there and do it too. I haven't changed one of my songs to fifth the occasion. It goes vaccine vaccine vaccine vaccine. I'm begging of you, please don't hesitate. But when she would weigh in on the issue, people are so conditioned to underestimate her that I just think she'd already accomplished what she wanted. But by the time they figured out what she was doing, right. And I think that is the case with her over and over again that she was able to take these political stances and positions on things that people didn't expect her to have a good right position on. And by the time they got it together to be angry, she had already won. She had already captured the headlines. She had already made the donations.

19:29She had already done the thing. So I think there was a lot of that. And I also think there was something to we really didn't, I think a lot of people would say they don't know her politics, didn't want to know them. And she gave them that gift. She said, okay, I'll give you some plausible deniability. Did you want to say you just like me because I'm blonde or because I'm funny, I'll let you have that. But she I think always knew that who she was really talking to were the people who understood what she was doing and why. We'll be back in a minute. Hi, I'm Bella Freud. Each week on Fashion Neurosus, I invite guests from the world of fashion, art, film, music, sport and literature to lie on my couch and explore the connection between identity and fashion. This week on Fashion Neurosus, I welcome Charlie XCX. To be childlike as an adult, I think, takes a lot of bravery because there's always this fear of

20:34being embarrassed, I suppose. You also have to kind of like be willing to completely fall on your face all the time, pursuing that child likeness can sometimes really open you up to ideas that maybe you would feel to embarrass to have if you weren't doing that. And I think that's quite scary, I think, but a really beautiful thing. Find fashion neurosis on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bella Freud. Each week on Fashion Neurosus, I invite guests from the world of fashion, art, film, music, sport and literature to lie on my couch and explore the connection between identity and fashion. This week on Fashion Neurosus, I welcome Shenaya Twain. I did really want to flaunt it. I just wanted to be myself and be natural. Like, you know, this is my body. And so why shouldn't I wear things that flatter it and that I enjoy wearing that make me enjoy

21:40my body instead of not wanting my body? I resisted it until I started making videos and then man, I feel like a woman was that was, oh, now I'm like, oh, you know, this is way too much fun. Like, this was blowing my mind. Find fashion neurosis on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. So like any good millennial, I have a love hate relationship with Gen Z. It's the phenomenon rattling millennials. They just look at you. They want something bigger themselves, lifestyle's a priority. Motivation is being inspired. But regardless of how you feel about Gen Z, it's undeniable that they're changing national politics. Generation Z is increasingly showing less loyalty to traditional political parties. Many now more likely to identify as independent. So what is going on with the kids? I think the biggest misconception about Gen Z's politics right now is that all of a sudden they're all socialist. That is just not the case. Yeah, yeah, they are embracing candidates who are

22:43offering new bold ideas in the absence of those ideas from establishment Democrats. This week on America, actually, Gen Z researcher Rachel Jem Faza joins us to separate Gen Z fact versus fiction. It's not rocket science. And this is, you know, I keep saying like, young voters aren't that complicated after all. It's pretty simple. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. So you tell a story when you were a little kid, your mom caught you standing too close to the TV. I remember that time staring at Deli Parton, like many black Americans Deli Parton drew you in. She also collaborated with black artists, Beyonce, Paddy LeBel, Queen Latif, among others. Talk about that because it's also that was another thing at Deli Wood. It was so racially mixed. I've never seen a more racially mixed group of people in one place. In a place I did not expect it to happen. Right? Like that's the thing. Well, country music and black popular music have something in common. And I've written about this before. And in some ways,

23:43country music and hip hop music are the two genres most obsessed with authenticity. Right. They police who is legitimately authentically country. Authentically hip hop. They're primary obligation to the culture. In of a genre, what authenticity means everything Deli Parton was the most authentic. I think what I was really responding to her as a child was this is a person who, yes, there's a lot of artifice. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors. But there was something undeniably authentic about her presentation of herself that did not have to be like my presentation herself. She didn't have to be black. She never tried to say R&B. I always love this about her. Like she would partner with these audiences, but never tried to sound like them. Which can be, yeah, which can be a little condescending. Right? The idea that you could come into somebody's genre and own it, right? She never did that. No matter what she did, she did her. She never

24:44tried to blow out a voice. She never did big runs. She never tried to do that. I just saw her to come to my window and I'd never heard it that way. And yeah, it was not the way she was doing it with Melissa S. A. Ridge, but she was the lead singer, which was I was like, oh, look at that. I saw her singing with a South African band. And she's in the pocket. But again, not trying at all to sort of do a mimicry of the culture. And I'm telling you something, black audiences love, love when artists respect us enough to come into our culture and not try to mimic us. You know, one of the, you know, we talked to black artists, you know, from the 50s and the 60s where it's this really big push for them to quote unquote, cross over to the mainstream. And those artists would say, you know, why do white audiences never cross over to us? And in Dolly's respectful engagement with them, she did. She would go, no, I'm crossing over to you. And I'm going to act like a guest in your home, but I'm also going to do my thing. And I think that really

25:46resonated with us and why we gave her so much credit. You know, when people tried to make black audiences doubt whether she was really, whether she was really about it, you know, all of that, we all just said, no, we're going to let Dolly cook. We trust what she's doing. And I think that's why what do you think her legacy will be? A lot of people have had different reactions. I just had Caitlin Collins on my pivot show. And she was like, I just feel like I got to live at the same time that she got to live. I feel very good about that. Another person was like, I think it's going to have an impact on politics because people, and they're like, I feel woken up, like, suddenly, like, I've had it with this because the contrast to Trump is so incredible. Just, just she haven't effected. And what do you think it will be? We've just been in this, you know, this Trump moment, this moment for so long, it starts to feel like normal. And it does sometimes, it does take an external shot to just go, wait a minute. No, the water's gotten really effing hot. Right. We're boiling here. And I can't see this being one of those moments. I also

26:47think that comparison really draws for people a clear, you know, black or white that this was a choice. Sorry. Like when Donald Trump embodies something, you can't say always a product of his time. You can't say, oh, extreme wealth does this. When Dolly Parton is his peer and shows a very different type of way to exist in the world. And so I also think about that. I mean, I think the cultural impact goes without saying, but I think there is like a sort of collective grief we have right now that we lost Dolly Parton in a political moment with this administration who in no way deserves the right to memorialize her. Right. And I do think people feel that as a call to arms, do we wish it were the fact that babies are being arrested? Sure. Do we wish it was about all of these other horrible things, but you know what, you take the moment you've got. And if it's that, we looked up and realized, wait a minute. President Trump gets to preside over our national mourning of somebody who represented the best of who we hope we can be. Again, don't

27:51know if that will translate into like big P politics, electoral politics, but I do think it has the ability to bring back a little shame. And frankly, we need that. If you had to talk to her, I know it sounds crazy. I always think what would you ask her if you had one question. I think I would have asked her what she wanted to write that she never got the chance to write. I want to know the story of all the way she has done. That's what I'm hoping. I'm hoping to actually throw open her archives, by the way, and we do find that it's in there. But I always felt like she wanted so much to control her story, which go, you know, totally reasonable. But I thought there was a story of herself she wanted to tell when it was safe for it to be told. And I have had a dream of fantasy that there's a secret autobiography and the archives that has been held,

28:54you know, upon my death. Now you can do it. That'll just go because you know she's got the stories about the worst actors in the industry and the business and the bad behavior and what she survived. And I always wanted that stuff from her. And I'm hoping there's a secret biography out there. Oh, that's great. And I have one last question. One you talked about her as a writer. And that's what you're asked. It was about is there one line that just amazed you? It's getting to the point where it don't add up. I can't keep saying I've come this far with my guitar on pure dumb luck. Oh, great one. Great line. Yeah, I think I have to say it's got to be light of a clear good morning. Everything. Not everything's going to be all right. That was all wrong. That's to me. It was the greatest line, you know. And that because that's it. That's everything is all we can do. That's right. Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, Tressie, you're a wonder. I really, I really love your work. And I really appreciate your thoughts here. Thank you very much.

29:55Joining me now to talk about Deli's legacy as a musician is country artist, Shelley Wright, an author of like me, confessions of a heartland country singer. And Rolling Stone culture writer, Marissa Moss, Moss wrote the book, her country, how women of country music became a success. They were never supposed to be. Marissa, Shelley, thanks for coming on on. Client to be here. Glad to be here. And it's such a good topic to talk about, by the way. I'll start with you, Shelley. And then Marissa, and you can answer after that. Is your immediate emotion when you heard she had passed, Daly had passed away? I think she was not well. I think she was not well. I was shocked and sad. And it took me a couple of days to wrap my head around that Daly Parton is not somewhere doing something great. And Marissa. I think she was the definition of someone that we all needed and wanted to believe

31:01could live forever. It's hard to imagine a world without Daly in it. And think living in a bit of denial. If someone's going to make it to 150, that'll be Daly, because we need her to do that. But the same, Michelle, is that it's been taking a minute to sink in. Just I feel like finally this morning I was driving my daughter to school and I put on light of a clear blue morning. And it just finally hit me. It was just like, had to take a minute. I'm going to say with that. Yeah, I'm so glad that song is getting a lot of attention now. It's one of my favorites. Now Marissa, you wrote a piece in Rolling Stone and my Daly was such a beloved figure around the world. Why did her music make it easier for people to connect with her and with maybe each other in a lot of ways? Yeah, I mean, Daly is the thing that we can all agree on, right? Everyone from any kind of local party, any background can unite on loving Daly. And she came from poverty in East Tennessee

32:06and she wrote stories from the heartland, from that experience, from Appalachia about what it was like to be a human in this world dealing with human things. So she could write everything from stories of love to stories of loss to just so many different stories about the human experience and all of us can see ourselves in Daly's songs. Shelley, at the start of your career, you kind of followed in Daly's footsteps because coming one of Porter Wagner's so-called girl singers on his TV show, when you were starting out, were you looking to her as a model of what you should do? Talk a little bit about that experience. Yeah, 100%. So Norma Jean was Porter's first girl singer that you may have seen on the Porter Wagner show. And then Daly stepped into that role. And then in the early 90s, that was the job that I had. And I had been following Daly and her example since I was a young kid back in a farm in Kansas,

33:09the kind of my musical landscape was really born of Loretta Lennon, Daly Barton. That those were my two biggest influences. And so, and then when I got to Nashville and got to know Daly and was lucky to call her a mentor and a friend, I followed her not only her music, but the way she conducted herself through the business lens. She was peerless in this space. And so, I did try to emulate her in every way and fell short at every turn. But those of us who made made our way to Nashville with a guitar on our back, everybody was paying attention to how Daly conducted business and how she made her art. And that included me for sure. Which it liked to be a girl singer on a TV show? I mean, the Porter Wagner show was just classic. And of course, he had lessonless influence over time, but initially it was critical. Well, yeah. And that kind of was the role. Before I got to Nashville, I worked in Branson,

34:12Missouri on a show called the Ozark Jubilee, a pretty storied historic show there. And the role I played there was girl singer as well. And so, you know, even into the 90s when I started making records, that's how we were kind of talked about is, you know, you can't have more than one girl singer on an outdoor festival that has eight or nine different acts. I can see Marissa smiling, because she's been deep in this conversation for the past 20 years. But it was, there was definitely kind of a role for girls and women. And it was, it was as we look back now, pretty dismissive and be littling of women. But as Loretta told me early in the career, she said, you're not going to change the industry, bend, but don't break. And you can't change the game if you're not on the field. So that was the role that most of us were happy to play because that's how we got on the field. Right. When you think about that, I mean, because she was a girl singer, but transcended that

35:14with enormous power. Yeah. And I just listening to you tell those stories and thinking about that idea of girl singer, we may not call women performers girl singer anymore, but we still treat them in that role in country music, just thinking of how many, you know, how many women in Nashville have to get on the country radio charts by singing with the man. It's like that. But I mean, Dali didn't call herself a feminist. I always talk about how she was such a master of words. So she knew that using a word would be divisive, but her actions were uncategorically feminist. You know, I just think of one of my favorite Dali songs is just because I'm a woman. And she wrote that song after having a conversation with her husband. They had been newlyweds and he asked her if she had ever slept with anyone before they were married. And she said, yes. And he got really upset. And she was thinking to herself, well, that's not fair. We don't care if men are sleeping around

36:16before they get married. And so she wrote that, that's what that song is about. And I mean, I talk about revolutionary for that time and even for now, if there was a song on country radio right now that was about that, I think it would still be kind of revolutionary. So was the bridge. So was dumb blonde. So there were a lot of them. Absolutely. There were times of Barbie. She was good at a lot of things. Obviously one of the things that was really special about is her excellence throughout, right? That it was just whatever she did singing and songwriting, chief among them, but also business, creativity, branding. What do you think about first when it comes

37:22to Dali? Shelly, go first. When I think about Dali, I think about, I know this sounds a little too woo woo, but I think about Angel Wings. I'm not kidding you this woman. And Cara, I don't know if you ever had a chance to meet her in person. But when she walked in a room, whether it be an industry event, a fan event, whether it was, we called it fanfare back in the day, which is now the CMA Music Fest or a restaurant in Nashville, people had a spiritual kind of visceral reaction. And she really did emit a light. And she really was an angel walk in the earth. And to the kind of political piece that she really was careful to not align herself with the political party. And the point being made that you could see through the lens of now that she was quite progressive and some might even say very liberal. The things that she talked about weren't the things that

38:25identified her politically, which she didn't want to be. It was the things that she did. IE, providing uniforms and funding for Black marching bands, giving the monies her performance royalties for I will always love you, Whitney's version to the Black community. So she didn't have to express a political belief. She just did things and that we were supposed to know her by her fruit. She would love that I've used a biblical reference here. We were to know her by her fruit. And her fruit was angelic. One of the things that I come to mind and the only interview I wish I'd done was with her talking just about business, only about business. That's all it because I really think she she didn't hide it completely, but she didn't express it as much. She'd say I always get one over on them because they think I'm dumb. That was pretty much the extent of it. But she famously turned down and she talked about it. Elvis Presley's request to record. I always love you because he wanted

39:25the publishing rights or at least half of them. She wanted to own all the rights to her own music, which was very unusual at the time. If obviously paid off big time when Whitney used and sang it and became a bestselling record, both Mercent and Shelley talk about this, this pressures and what it meant to be so protective of her intellectual property even as a young up in Cumber. Yeah, I mean it is something I think of when we were talking about when Taylor Swift is you know, has been kind of battling to own her publishing rights as part of like one of sort of the foundational lessons of her career. When women come to Nashville and I'm sure Shelley can talk even you know even better about this than I can having lived it, the degree to which you're expected to sign away and give away just in order to have a career. I mean it's huge. Like you will do anything. You are not being advised by people that are always looking out for your best interest that probably aren't. And you're trying to fight to be that one woman in the room, one woman on the radio.

40:29And so it's kind of expected that you'll do whatever you have to do and a lot of times that means giving up your publishing rights and signing these ridiculous deals, you know multi-album deals and all of these things. But Dali was really a model for advocating for yourself as a woman in the business and I think she didn't shy away from showing that she was a business person. So at that time especially and that particular artist was the most popular artist in the world, one of the most popular artists. Imagine telling him no. Yeah, yeah, as a young woman. Shelley talk about this owning your own stuff. Yeah, plus one to everything Marissa just said, the things that we will do when we get to Nashville when we've got a major label or anyone saying, hey, we believe in you, we want to help you. You just, you don't come to town to be a business person. You come to town to make records. And so when I think about what Dali did when she did it in terms of her publishing,

41:29you know, it's why she was a problematic girl singer. It's one of the reason, I mean, she before she was seen as an advocate and a pioneer, she was just like a girl singer who was breaking the rules and causing some trouble. But when Colonel Tom Parker, Elvis's manager called her and said, yeah, but we're going to need to have that publishing. She had already had a hit record with, I will always love you. She knew the value of that copyright. But I think even if that were a newly licensed song and no one had ever cut it, I still think she would have said, you can't have my publishing. So the name of Dali's publishing company was Opa, Opa, I believe, own part. And that was after her uncle Bill Owens and Parton. And which is why I named my publishing company in the early 90s, Henri. My mom's maiden name was Henry. My dad, of course, I'm a right. One of the things about Dali is she saw the whole field. She saw the long game. And she knew she

42:32was not going to have a three year career. It was her plan to have a 65 year career. And when you think about the value of your IP and Kara, you know, you know, I'm a super fan. I've heard you talk a lot about doing all you can do to hold onto your IP. How much has that meant to you? Everything. You know, it's yourself. Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of people have been tried different times and tried to get it. And they always go, why do you have to have it? I go, I just want it. I don't have to tell you what it's mine. It's mine. I said it's mine. Because it's mine. Yeah, that's why. And they're always like, well, for what? Well, you may not make money for it. I don't care. It's mine. And Dali had that that was her thinking is that this isn't a this isn't a short term career that I want to have. I'm going all the way. And she did and she owned herself and what a what a gift to herself and into the to her family and her team and her band and to the world and an example for the Taylor Swift's example for me. I've owned all of my publishing and my masters, all of my master

43:35since 2004. That's hard to do. One of the things that was interesting about Dali, the business woman, even as her business flourish was she was never accused of being greedy. Criticisms and capitalism seemed to whizz right by her. How is that possible? Why don't you start shawling then, Marissa? She gave so much away. So, you know, you one could do a quick Google search and see the things that she gave away the massive amounts of money, intentional money, not just checkwriting, but intentional, really focused money. And I can promise you what you can find on Google is not the half of it, not even the quarter of it. You know, when you grow up poor in the Smoky Mountains and to, you know, to room shack and I had conversations with Dali about this. It's all gravy after that. And so, I think no one ever questioned her heart because she showed up with it everywhere, every day, every moment of the day. And she gave so much money away. But again, she did it with

44:35intention and that kind of that coupling, effective writing a check, but knowing where you want it to go, how you want it to go and who you want to receive it, that's power. No one would ever suggest that this woman was greedy. She said, I just give it away and I just just more comes in. More comes in. More comes in. The more I give it away, the more comes in. We'll be back in a minute. So, one of the things that she did do a lot was work hard. Like an incredible, you see, she seemed to be everywhere. These clips that are showing up are like she was there. Oh, she was there. I didn't know she was there. And last summer it was announced she was going to do a six-night Vegas residency. I bought a ticket. It was later postponed due to health issues. But, you know, she was even at 79 still grieving her husband. She was gearing up to work. And she never really, she didn't retire in any ways. Talk a little bit where that drive came from because obviously,

45:37it wasn't about the money at this point or anything else. First, Marissa then, Shelley. Well, we talk about the fact that Dolly didn't have children. I think she still saw her life as almost like a version of intergenerational wealth for people in East Tennessee as a model. First, southerners that are really misunderstood, that are kept away from opportunities by, how they grew up, how our society is structured. So I think she saw that business, not just as expanding the Dolly brand and working as a model to fuel her charitable efforts and being a model for women, but also providing for her people. Because the Dolly theme park is going to keep going on. The Dolly brand is going to keep going on all of her works that she has. I mean, she has like a whole plan laid out. Are going to keep funding people who need that income and some people that came, you know, grew up just like Dolly did. So I think that was part of what really fuel her.

46:41She was her working. What do you think, Shelley? I think Marissa is exactly right. Dolly felt, and I don't want to use the word obligation. I think she thought it was a privilege to go, to continue to work really hard because she did have lots of communities that really rely on Dollywood and to rely on the big Dolly machine. It's not to say people were just taking from her, but she had an opportunity to provide access and opportunity to others who without Dolly's influence and kind of her business ecosystem, they'd lose that. And then I would just add, at the end of the day, Dolly scrappy. She's a hard worker. I don't think she would have known what to do with herself if she weren't working. And I'll say if you were to kind of reverse engineer into all of it, this woman always ended up in a quiet room with the guitar writing something down. That's where the work came from. And I know, I know that, you know, as recently as, you know, within the past year or so, she found herself in a

47:47room with the guitar writing ideas down. And probably if I'm a betting woman, she probably was jotting down song ideas in the hospital. That's at the heart of her economic kind of ecosystem was make up a story, write down a song, reflect the human experience. If she's funding all that philanthropy at the same time, where does the next thing come from Marissa? I mean, there's, there's lots more songs. Maybe there's other things there. I had heard the reason I want to talk to her as I heard she was doing a lot of work around AI and song, song stems and creating stuff. She was endlessly interested in future stuff, which I thought was, I was shocked, sort of shocked by in a lot of ways. And of course, then I was like, why am I shocked? She's an entrepreneur. Yeah. Yeah. Where does it go then? Yeah. I mean, I think we got from her PR agency within days. I think it was maybe it was a day. This has been a blur of a week, but a, a plan of everything went out to journalists that she has

48:53in the works. And it detailed all of her different brands, her hotel here in downtown Nashville, her museum, her play opening up on Broadway. There's clothing brands. There's food companies you can buy dolly cake mix. There are, yeah, there are so many things that she has that exist that are still in the works. But I think she knew that the business venture is even as music, unfortunately, becomes more difficult, becomes more difficult to propel yourself economically, with just music alone. So there's a whole dolly business machine that will keep running, you know. Shelly, you're the first mainstream country artist to be openly gay in 2010. And you've said dolly was one of the few artists who offered her support to you. What did that look like? And what did it mean that someone of her stature was speaking up for you? It meant everything. Again,

49:56going back to dolly, having been one of my biggest influences in my lifetime and in my musical kind of journey to have the defining artist of my genre, speak publicly and about supporting me. And you know, we all knew that dolly was a friend to the queer community. And she, she, I just can't tell you what I don't actually still have words to explain how much that meant to me to have dolly be in my corner and celebrate me. And it wasn't a surprise to me because that's who dolly had always been. You know, one of dolly's, dolly used to say, she said a lot of things, but don't try to be anything but who you are. I keep saying, well, if you're the fine Christian that you're, you think you are, why are you judging people? Why are you, that's God's job. If you're gay, you're gay. If you're straight, you're straight. And you should be allowed to be, you know, how, how you are.

50:57And I think that's one of the reasons why the queer community found such a favor in her and loved her so much because she truly was authentically herself and she wanted others to be. And that, that really interesting intersection of supporting the queer community while also having the deep faith practice that she did, that was really unique. And she allowed a lot of grandparents and parents and neighbors and folks to listen a little bit longer to their queer nephew when they said, hey, anti, hey, grandpa, I'm gay, it was dolly parton who gave them pause enough to kind of listen to their kid. So it meant a lot to me. Yeah. So, Merza, one of the things she also did a lot was collaborations with other artists. And they were, they were all over the place, like that letter to M&M, like, I was like, what? Like, like, it was sort of like, I suspect she saw a lot in common in terms of way he grew up and everything else. But one of the in 87, for example, 1987, she and

52:00Emily, the Harris and Linda Ronsett put an album called Trio. Obviously, Ronsett was more of a rock and roll singer, Harris is more foky. I saw Melissa Atheridge thing the other day and then smitten like Bombazzo. It was all over the place, you know, bluegrass, and then it was pop, and then it was country, and then it was religious, and then it was Christmas. They went and then she just moved along. I said, Tony, she moved all over the map. And like you said, she, she said yes so many times. I think when she could have very easily said no repeatedly. And I think she understood the importance of, you know, being dolly and bringing herself into that conversation. I think of in 2019, when she joined the high women, she's Sprintney Carlyle, Amanda Shire's not only him being Maron Morris on stage at Newport Folk Festival. And then a score of other women that joined the stage later. She did not have to show up that day. Apparently, she had to like charter

53:02up plain just to get in there and they covered her in a cloak. So she could come into Newport without anyone recognizing that it was Dolly. So that's a lot of effort to go through just to be this, you know, kind of short surprise performance with women that were out there. The mission of the high women was more women need to be in country on country radio. And she said, I want to, you know, coastline this. And and that's pretty wild to me. And you can find, you know, Dolly duets with people that maybe you've never heard of because she just wanted to, you know, wanted to support those projects. Last question for both of you. I'd love you both to reflect on what you think the legacy and the future impact is going to be. It will be political. Will people be like reminded of kindness in a way in a profound way? And what lesson will each of you be taking away from her life? Shelly, why don't you start? Yeah, what will the future look like? Well, the world is less

54:04than with Dolly gone. That said, her legacy of using her power and knowing her power, whether it be supporting someone's version of one of her songs or using her power to give money to something that she cared about. She used her power well. And I think her legacy will be a reminder to all of us to know your power and use it, use it often. And and then in terms of, it just in in terms of what it's like going forward, I think it's all of our jobs to remind ourselves kind of what would Dolly do? Dolly was a genuinely is. Let me show you. That's my shirt right now. Oh my god. I got it at Dollywood. There it is. Okay. I'm going to need one of those. Well, great shirt care. And thank you. And and I do think she has made the world kinder. And and I do think that Dolly belongs to all of us right left center north south east west. I've heard from people around

55:09the globe, colleagues from around the globe in the past few days. We are so sorry about Dolly Parton. We're mourning her here in the office. We're playing her music Dolly belongs to the world. And I think that's that's the legacy. Okay. Perissa, you have the last word. Something that I that I've been thinking about and wrote about is this idea that we all can agree on Dolly. And what does that mean and what would she think about that? And I don't think it was an ego project. I don't think she all wanted us to agree on her and love her because it made her feel good and made her feel like she was the most powerful woman on earth. I think there's an important lesson. And I really hope that we all stop and think about this now. And that if we could all agree on Dolly Parton, what more can we do? Can't we all agree with each other more? Can't we find a middle place with each other more? Can't we understand each other's humanity a little bit more? So in that process of all loving something together as a people as humans, what more can we do with that feeling? And I really

56:13hope that now that we're talking about her in the past tense, which sucks so much, that will continue to think, how else can we harness this feeling? What else can we all come together on? Because I don't think we want to let that go. I hope we don't want to let that go. No, no, you know who are alternative? It's so opposite. Trump is so opposite. I'm trying not to bring him up because he doesn't belong anywhere in this conversation. But you're right. You're absolutely right. It's like, what can we? What do we have in common? And she was what we had in common. Anyway, I really appreciate it from both of you. I could talk about Dolly endlessly on all kinds of topics. And I hope we'll continue to do so in the years I had because it's really much needed. For sure. Thanks, Cara. Thanks for having me, Simon. Thanks for having me. Today's show was produced by Nishat Kerwa, Tracy Hunt, Madeline Laplant-Duby, Michelle Alloy, Katherine Milsopp and Kaylen Lynch. Special thanks to Katherine Barner. This episode was engineered by Alia Jackson-Perez. And our theme music is by Tracademics. If you're already

57:16finding the show, then you know about the light of a clear blue morning that's coming. If not, Jolene, go away. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Cara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Cara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.