RECONsider... Depth vs Certainty: Why Easy Answers Are Dangerous with Bill Hartman

0:00The thing is, is they come back, like, so what I find is people come back when I, this is going to sound really good, when I talk over their head, because they realize there's way more to learn. And so the fact is, is when you kind of show them the depth of what's the next level, they're like, holy shit, okay, wait, what is that all about, like, okay, let's talk into that. And that's what he's going to get. That's right. And so, so ultimately, it's, they, they want to go deeper and you need to keep showing him there's deep, there's more depth, right? I think we do a few shots. Is that feel right? Yeah. And I think going back to point, I think, I, I'm thinking a lot about, like, the uncertainty part of both questions and also what we do, like, that's something very uncomfortable to be in. And I think that a lot of the knockoffs, I think they give a very large sense of certainty. Yeah. It's like, this is, this is what, this is what we're talking about, this is what we're talking about. Well, but this, but this is where, like, so in the world I work in, there are people say, I'll get you five ideas that will get you a million dollars or do this and this

1:01and this and this and this. And I go like, I don't know what the fuck I'm going to find. And, and you have to basically start to battle those people to say, like, they're promising that. But when you really look back on it, they never get you an idea that's worth a million dollars ever. And you've done it a thousand times, but you still go back. And so part of it is to realize, like, you have to call them out on their behavior. Right. And you're always going to have knockoffs. And so you got to, the thing that I would tell you is, is, is let them define the difference. You don't define the difference. So when they say, you know, well, I could go to so and so, well, what's the difference between them and me and the, and they'll, whatever they come up with, they're right. Well, you're more deaf, but you're hard to get on. Okay. Do you want, do you want just easier access with dumb or answers? I don't understand. Yeah. And I like the three answers to the question because that already makes it like it's not certain. That's right. There's, and I think that that's one thing that I noticed, like, people really want like clear answers like this is what, because they don't even taught in school is that there is a correct answer. It's like, it's either ABC or D, right, instead of, instead of like, Oh, I have to actually

2:06reason my way through this. And then I have to actually go through a process to actually determine this because the level of complexity is so high that I don't have this direct cause and effect relationship. Right. So I actually understand what just happened that will lead me to the next, next course of action. It's like people don't recognize that. So one of the things I do, and I, I'm assuming you might do this tomorrow as well, but I, I literally will pull people out of an audience, I've never met, and ask them about something they recently bought. And, and they'll give me some lie and why they bought it, I got such a deal on the car. It was amazing, blah, blah, blah. And it turns out like, no, the old car was broken. This was, you know, a big repair before the rails, you have a big trip ahead of you. Like, there's all these other things that are wrapped around it, you got to go like, and they only tell you this much of the story, but the rail is the story is this big. And so my thing would be is, is I could see you doing like me just walking in today at all 30 people there and say, like, let's just take a half an hour. I'm going to, I'm going to work on this guy and I, I've never met him and I don't know

3:08who he is. And so you can see my approach. And I want you to just take, I take questions and, and write down. And then basically, then they get to interview you and me or you and, and the person you did to say, like, what does it like to be the patient? And what, what was I thinking as he was doing this? I'm like, oh, you know, like, he felt something, but I didn't really feel it, but then he did it again. And like, oh, yeah, I can feel a difference. Like, there's all those kinds of things where, where I think it's good for them to see what the potential of where they could go is. Like, like, how quickly he just diagnosed me and what was going on was fucking unbelievable. I mean, not really. Not really. It's, it's a, so here's the thing is, no, it's like, no, no, it's, so that's your perception for people who have no experience. It took me 35 years to do that. It looks like magic. It looks like magic. And it's the same thing when I come in and say, this is why people hire, like, how did you come up with that? It's like, I only need 10 people. I can tell you how the whole market works and they're like, how do you know that? It looks like magic. But once you break it down to say, like, there's a system and a method to this madness.

4:10This is how this works. This is, this is what you can do. That's the intent of the courses and also, like, we recorded your sessions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have a series on the network. So you should, so you should be able to use me for this and then talk through what my diagnosis is going to be and then, and then you can talk through what, what we've been doing. And then I can talk through the, what the masseuse has been, I can get through the masseuse on the line as well. So that's exactly the, that's what these cases, like what you can use, like, Andrew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's back. And back. And stuff. Bill and I talk about it. Yeah. We have a whole series of episodes like this. But, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, no. Just, I literally just fit you with you together. But, but, but, but she's been having all these things with her feet and everything and she's gone to the orthotic people and she's, yeah, yeah. She, she was a big doctor, person and now she's realizing, like, doctors and physicians. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, she's very regular shoes.

5:10Yeah. Dr. would never have gone through anything they were talking about. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things I would tell you as a way for certification is to make them do a case study as part of, oh, there's no question. So don't listen. So the end of the second day is like they actually have to do everything that we talked about over the two days. They actually execute. So they'll have an opportunity to do it. A certification process will involve having to come here with a small group. Oh, yeah. Four days. Yeah. And at the end, you will be, you know, the start track at all. Yeah. Copy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to get a possible situation where you come in this room with Bill and you. Question on the whiteboard or patient case on the whiteboard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then if you do it, then you can use it. And you will fail miserably under all circumstances. Because the hard part for you is you can see that the question is probably 70% right. What do you do? Oh, yeah. Well, I'll just mislead them. So you've been through it.

6:10You've been through it, right? You had wrapped it. Yeah. Yeah. So all the little plaque there. Yeah. Those are my students over eight years. And he was actually, he was an unofficial student for about eight weeks. But no, each one of those would have to go through essentially a day where they had to do a case presentation. They had to provide all of their logic exactly what happened. And then they literally had to go through the entire process. In front of, we, at the time, we had a big staff. We had about eight and eight people in here. And literally they're so that you're of you. Oh, yeah. Like of the worst kind. Yeah. Because I would give them two scenarios to choose from. And then they would, they would choose a scenario. And then they would like literally go through the process in front of everyone. And then my guys were so loaded for bear that they were just grill. Yeah. Yeah. And they would go there. Absolutely. It was just horrible. And you're not sure whether you're not sure whether you did it right or not. The thing is, is they just got to get over their fear of doing it wrong.

7:12And they know it. Yeah. So it was, it was always a great, it was always a great tongue. And they all benefited except for one. So the thing. The thing that. So. There's one of that. It says. I was going to say that was that vault board or was that. It just wasn't, he just wasn't. Yeah. It wasn't a good, it was not a good match. Yeah. I've had a guy who basically has come to every one of my sessions. Any public. Public wherever he literally finds it. He's signed up for it. He's been doing it for 15 years. Still has not done hasn't done one interview. We will not talk to one customer. It's too afraid. I'm just like, dude, you can't come back until you've talked to a customer. I can't do it. You have a groupie. Yeah, it's exactly what that is. It's not a lot of second. For sure. Yeah. Well, it's part of your job to protect him from that. That's basically. That's right. Yeah. He runs interference quite well. Start about this. We're trying to protect bills time.

8:12Yes. Well, the hard part is most people don't know that they're taking advantage of bill. Yeah. I don't think they think that. I don't think they're intentions. No, they don't have that intention. But the fact is like if there's stuff they could learn in other places that. That they should be coming to you with the more harder stuff, not with easy stuff. And so. Well, it's true. People, you know, from my perspective, like people taking bills very generous with this time. You know, let's see. It's just as attitude. But I can see it as like people are taking advantage. And I do think some people have. Yeah. I would tell you that. I can't see it. I'm pretty sure he can't see it. Yeah, I can't. And you can. And you. I can't see it until it's done. Yeah. I can't see it going in. Because I'm. I'm just like loaded from like. You got a question for me, dude. I want to answer it. And you realize like, okay, that was just a waste of time. Yeah. But see, that's great. So that's what Greg is for me. I'm an optimist. And Greg's the pessimist. And we. And we. And we. But I've learned. Like, look, I'll be in front of a. You know, in a talk of a thousand people and Greg will tell me to stop.

9:14Like in the back of the room, I'll just stop. And everybody's like, who. Who's that guy? Like how can. How can. And I know whatever he's doing is that I'm either doing something wrong. There's something that's going to happen that I didn't know. Or like, he's just looking out for me. And so I can. That was a percent. I don't pay any attention to time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so then you just go and go and go. And then he goes, uh, why don't we take a. Take a break. I'm going to take this back. First sensitive of time when it's somebody else. Oh, probably. Because you just looked at your pocket. I don't want to take his. Yeah. So you're sensitive to time when it's his time. But when it's your own time, like it's like, I'll just give him freely. This is the problem I have to. I feel so good about my problems today, Bob. Thanks to you. Wow. There's not really problems. There's side effects of. Yeah. No. It's just the blessing that you got. It puts me a little bit at ease about some stuff. Yeah. That it's like, okay, I'm not the only one that deals with this kind of thing. No. And I think I think. Like there's something about 30 years that once you get past 30 years of doing something, you.

10:14You. You. You know you don't know it. But you know you know it better than most people. Yeah. There's just this comfort of. I'll talk about it because I don't really know what I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm more comfortable being uncertain. Yeah. Then I ever have been. That's right. Right. It's like. It gets worse. I can only imagine. Right. At some point it gets worse because you. You just start to like not even listen to questions anymore. Because it's like, yeah. Well, I. I would prefer to spend more time by myself. Yeah. Thinking. Thinking. That's what I'm doing. Then. Then. Then. Or with a few. With a few people. Like for me. Well, it's like. Yeah. It's like that's why I bring people like. Yeah. That's why he's here. And that's definitely why he's here. You know. Yeah. Yeah. But again. I've kind of changed my goals. My goals were, you know, I wanted a million people in the world to know what jobs we've done is. And I realized that. It was very shallow. And very broad. And it turned out to be not really motivating for me.

11:15Like. Yeah. I used to give the big talks in the circuit. And. Yeah. And then I started doing classes. And. I realized that like 90. Like it's really 20%. If I have a. If I have a class of 20 people, I might have four people who really get it. That's my. That's my number. Does this sound like when I. When I talk about the intensive. It's. It's like. It's like. I could put 100 people in the room. But you're only going to get 20 that I get it. What exactly? It's like, so I just bring the 20. Yeah. So that's the thing is the way you do that is you the raise your standards to get in. Yeah. Because those people are willing to put the extra effort to get in. Yes. Or the fact that you make a very high screen criteria or you basically make sure that there's a pre like a pre course that they have to take. And we're doing both of those as well. So that's how good. I feel. Yeah, but that's. That's the way to do that. Because at some point. Yeah. I'm pretty sure also. Years. I mean, three years. I know about six. I'm pretty sure a lot of our conversations. We've talked like this all this. Oh, man, jealous. I'm telling. Oh, story about the purple.

12:17Yeah. No. Okay. So I worked in Florida in the mid 90s. And I was introduced to the new company. Like literally the weekend I got to Florida. There was like a company picnic. So I met a bunch of people. And I meet this guy. That you wouldn't think would be like a very professional. It's like he's got spiky colored hair. He's got like like a ring of ear rings. And he's very heavily tattooed, but the beach. So you can see. And he goes, hey, he goes. He goes, I know Thursday that they want you to move around to some of the other clinics. So you can meet some of the other staff. He goes, he goes, you guys are going to be in the areas that come by my clinic. And I say, so I go by his clinic. I go in and, you know, I get my tie on and everything. And I'm expecting to see the same guy that I saw at the beach. Right. And so I go in and they introduce me to the, to the manager of the clinic. And I go, oh, hey, it's like I'm Bill. He goes, we met. And I was like, what? And it's like, okay, wait a minute. This is the same guy that I met at the beach. He's got his hair slick back. He's got a suit tie on everything's covered.

13:18It's like you can't tell us the same guy. It takes me into the clinic. Right. And it was, it was an expansive area. It looked like more like a living, a big living room than a clinic area. Lights fairly low. Lighting. I say you had light candles. And he had, like, if you listen closely, you could hear the music in the background. He's like, just below, like, conversation level. And you could smell lavender. And then very sensorial. Oh, it was like powerful. That's great. Like, I walk in and, and, and, and, and he, and he, he, I, I've used this story. Like a thousand of you. And he goes, it's a home field advantage. That's exactly right. Right. And it was like, oh, I get it now. Like, every time, every time I've had the opportunity to do this, I, I don't like, I don't like this color at all. But I do know that the, the, we, like, the very first soothing, it's very, very, very, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, there's attention. Like, if you measure somebody's stress coming in. Yeah. The, the, the out there, they're worried about what's going to happen in this room.

14:19Like a big red wall out there. It's like, yeah. That's right. And then they come in here. And then this allows me to tune down. So this is my home. This is my home. This is my home field. So I have, I have an office that's really three blocks from my house. It's a 5,000 square foot office. It is set up like an apartment. Nice. So when you come in. It, like, you, you walk up and it's like, there's two kitchen tables. There's really bit, you know, you can work kind of anywhere. And then we have these rooms with whiteboards all the way around. And they're, they're windows and whatever. But it's like this place where it's like we call it the safe space. So people can like say anything they want in that room. And like people once they leave, they all want to come back because they, they felt like they could be themselves for the first time ever. And so I have people from all over the world fly in to do that exact for the home field advantage. And once they come, they will never want us to come see them. So that's my strategy. Oh, I basically travel less and less as I just make them come to me. Right. Well, that's, and I prefer that too.

15:19Who tries, he rips me from my home. Yeah. I don't mind going to Florida. Yeah, she does like to leave the house. I'm more of like that. What is your wife? She's a surgical nurse. Okay. Actually, yeah. She used to be a. Spine. Okay. Yeah. She used to be a flight nurse. So she actually had to learn how to repel from a helicopter. Use a, use a handgun. Like she was pretty, very pretty badass for a while. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's got skills. She's got skills. But yeah. But she's been a nurse for 35 years. Yeah. Kids. She has had to. Okay. You don't have it. I don't have any. I'm not allowed. I didn't pass the test. We're all laughing about that. But there is some truth to having something like that. I'm really not caught.

16:20I didn't have the representation. My mother was a saint. My dad was not. Like there was a moment. There's. I. I look back on this. And it's like there's. There was a value to having him for a father. Because I'm happy with myself. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like. It's like so. So how could that be like the worst thing ever? But. But my mother was. So the way I say this is that. Though my dad was as evil as I could ever imagine to me. I wouldn't be who I am today without it. Right. And so I have to. I have to embrace it. And basically I don't have to say. I don't wish it upon anybody else. But to realize like I've had this. This gift of. Of all these things that happened that basically made me in who I am today. Right. Like there's a certain intensity that. That I probably draw from it. Yeah. You know, and then. I learned that how to. My inner voice. You know how to talk to yourself. Oh, sure. Like. So my thing is I realized that a lot of it was my dad. And so the moment that I kind of kicked him out. And basically brought my mom in.

17:20And basically brought it myself to basically have conversations with. Like there's no more yelling. There's no more assholes. There's no. Like I realized like he was the bad side of my inner voice. Right. And so that was very. That's an interesting comment. But if you didn't have that comparison. That's right. Well, I feel. I feel sorry to be honest. My children growing up didn't have virtue. What I would consider. And they've had trauma of some sort. I know that. But not to the expect. I have it. But the real is like they. Like I. I can walk into just about anything. And just figure it out and be comfortable with it. My kids. There's no way that they have that level of comfort of any of that stuff. And I'm sure you have the comfort of. Let's just go. Let's try. Yeah. And that comes from. That. If you will shitty childhood. But the same time is like. You had to make it work. Yeah. Well, there's a gift. Well, there's a. There's a confidence of. That you'll survive it. Yeah. I would. The way I say it is like. I might not know how, but I have confidence in my ability to figure it out. Yeah.

18:20I mean, I've been into so many situations. I knew nothing about it. Like I work for the Federal Reserve Bank. And I have no idea what they would want with me at all. And it realizes that they feel like that they don't have any customer. Or they have no idea who the customer is.