Q&A:Why Don't Christians Observe Old Testament Feasts? Is It Wrong for a Pastor to Seek a Call? What Should I Do If Prayer Makes Things Worse? More.

0:00Hey YouTube dealosions welcome to the theology Q&A podcast I'm Pastor Brian Wokemiller Pastor St. Paul Jesus Steph Lutheran churches Austin, Texas joined by pastor Andrew Packer Good Shepherd Lutheran Church Collinsville, Illinois pastor Packer heard a room about you happy birthday Yes last week less Thursday man, man. It's great. How old are you getting old 47? Oh, man. I haven't caught you yet though All right, let's answer some of these questions while you still got time Yeah, I guess they'll why I still see them five glasses The first one's about the old doesn't it decent. Why don't why don't we as Christians keep those ah? So I realize that we do not obey God's commands in order to be saved But I have struggled for a while with why we as Christians don't actively celebrate the major scriptural God ordained festivals I understand that Jesus was a fulfillment of these things and we have forgiveness of sins and life through his death

1:03burial and resurrection But I also see the value in Yom Kippur as a day of atonement and Passover for remembering the great works of the Lord etc Enlightened Christ's work Passover especially confuses me because Exodus declares as to be kept for all generations We have Christ to his overall and in all and through all But why would having a satire meal in light of the gospel be something that we shun or ignore When explicitly states to keep this practice for all generations and In fact of attending a Christian satire meal with a couple insertions for recognition of Christ But it was considered a fun option activity versus something that should be more standard It came from the mouth of God just as a ten commandments I would love clarification as I am confused great question. Oh man So and this is a not an obscure question in the New Testament I mean, it's one of the things that they're wrestling through and you can see it specifically as the New Testament church wrestles through this with the question of circumcision Sabbath and especially the dietary laws basically the ceremonial law in the Old Testament which was the liturgical laws and how to be clean

2:08We'll remember maybe this is helpful to remember that cleanliness and Holiness are related but not exactly the same so it's a different standard of righteousness one is of moral righteousness the others of ceremonial righteousness and access to the temple so you could do things that would make you unclean and Those would be good works like having a baby or like burying your father Those are good works that make you unclean so different kind of standards that are there But that ceremonial law was really how to handle the blood that was gonna cover over the commands It it the ceremonial law is centered in the sacrifice and that sacrifice Has to do with this preaching that God accepts the death of another in my place So I mean I think from the Garden of Eden when the Lord takes an animal and takes the hide to cover the shame of Adam and Eve's Nakedness until the very last animal that's slain on the altar before the crucifixion of Jesus

3:10Every single one of those is preaching that the Lord will accept the death of another in my place But it was preaching Christ and when Christ comes he offers himself as the sacrifice once for all and it brings an end to all the other Sacrifices there's no more need for the preaching of the sacrifice to come because the sacrifice has come and been accomplished So all of those ceremonial laws that have to do with cleanliness and the life of the temple are now Undone by the death of Jesus and we see it explicitly in the word new that Jesus uses when he Institutes the Lord's Supper. He says this is the new testament new covenant It's the Greek and the Hebrew word mean either covenant or testament It's and and it in some ways is both but it's it's a new testament It goes into place at the death of the testator and that new testament then replaces the old So when Jesus after they celebrate the Passover meal that's the last Passover meal ever authorized because Jesus then says

4:12New and when he says new he makes the old obsolete That's the explicit teaching of Hebrews chapter 8 and so this is when you ask why we do this why the New Testament Church does not celebrate The Old Testament sacrifices or the Old Testament feasts Remembering also that all of those feasts Needed the high priest they needed an animal to be sacrificed they needed the altar and they needed the temple None of those things exist anymore, but it quotes Jeremiah 31 31 Behold the days are coming when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand and led them out of the land of Egypt They didn't continue in my covenant and I disregarded them says the Lord for in this covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days Says the Lord I will put my laws in their mind and write them in their hearts And I will be their God and they will be my people and then the writer of Hebrews goes on to say verse 13

5:14In that he says a new covenant He has made the first obsolete Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away So that new covenant that was promised by Jeremiah Jeremiah 31 31 and following that was then set up by Jesus in the institution of the Lord's That makes the old covenant obsolete So all of the things of the old covenant are obsolete now The question and the beautiful question is how can it be like the Lord said to Abraham I'll make a everlasting covenant with you and he gave him the covenant of circumcision The Lord says at the Passover this will be a perpetual covenant for you So how can we say those things can come to an end? Well the only way a covenant comes to an end is if the one who made the covenant dies And and this is I mean, it's an amazing thing to realize that when for example the Lord has Abraham Fall asleep and he alone goes through those carcasses that are cut in half at that covenant ceremony

6:18That we think well that covenant will never end because God will never die But he in fact does So that when when God dies when Christ is crucified that old covenant comes to an end So as long as the Lord lives that covenant is in place, but the Lord now It's died and now his resurrection brings about the new covenant That's what he's talking about in his death and his resurrection why baptism the supper and the absolution are so connected to the death and resurrection of Jesus So I think that's the biblical answer to why we don't celebrate the feasts Yeah, I'm just gonna add I think we understand that Jesus is the fulfillment of everything of the Old Testament That he is I was just preaching on this last night from Galatians 3 16 right that Abraham does it the promise Abraham isn't to seeds plural, but to seed singular that is Christ so that All the promises are fulfilled in him he is right Israel reduced to one. He is the totality of everything promised

7:19He's and he's greater than every I mean he's he's Once you have Christ the other stuff you look back and you're like oh It was just pointing forward to it. I should have never got caught up in it like I should have just I don't want to stay with that stuff Like why would I go back to that Which is Hebrews are he's about that too right don't return to these things you have Christ now So every washing of the Old Testament is now replaced with baptism So if you're baptized you've received the fullness of what all those things are pointing to If you have the Lord's supper then you have the fullness of what every single Meal of the Old Testament was pointing forward to like it was all an anticipation of the Lord's Supper So if you have the Lord's supper you don't need a satire meal you don't need any of these other feasts of the Old Testament had because you have The fullness of it And you're actually receiving Christ's body and blood with the bread and wine so why would you need The pictures the things that were pointing forward to this great thing So once you understand that all of it's just pointing to Jesus and leading up to Jesus and that now you're getting even

8:20Again the fullness of all those things plus even more right? It's even greater than we could have possibly imagined That you're like well, of course, I don't I don't have to do those things anymore because Jesus fulfilled all of them In his death and resurrection and now I have one washing and one meal and they're greater than all the previous ones combined Right that's once you got that then the rest of it's like oh, I wonder we don't have to do that anymore Or even that the phrase um Right for like all generations Well, yeah, the Lord's Supper is a fulfillment of that and it's Better and we're gonna have the marriage piece of the land for all eternity So in one way you're getting it plus a whole lot more and you're getting it forever Right not just here on earth, but on the new earth as well Yeah, you know, we do so much And this is right of saying hey old Testament New Testament same God Same doctrine same gospel same salvation by grace through faith et cetera It is good for us to circle back to remember, but they are different covenants

9:22They are unique and one was pointing forward the other was pointing back So we have we have the same gospel, but we have a different delivery system in the Old Testament. It was being delivered By the priesthood at the temple through the blood of the sacrifice in the New Testament being delivered By the word preached by baptism by the Lord's Supper same gospel same Jesus Same father son and Holy Spirit same law and gospel same command and promise but a different System established by the Lord So a different liturgy that's the same church different liturgy All right next question This one's on the LCMS Lutheran Church was very soon. It called process And Gettinat is a pastor seeking a call a bad thing I am going to reword this one just so like there's no I don't want anyone to inadvertently get thrown under the bus here So I will just try to reword this the best I can to get the main point across Basically, they're new LCMS and don't quite understand our call process. Okay

10:26And what they want to know is if this is a divine call And you have a divine call and you start actively seeking another call They can pair it to like synergism basically in their question Um, if you are you know if a pastor can kind of Have this divine call they say it's divine and then start putting feelers out to see who else might want them Um, one they're wondering what kind of samples that set for the church Right about loyalty steady-est steadiness faithfulness etc and Are we just using God's will or divine call as a protection for for this kind of thing um, so How should we understand that is it wrong for a pastor to seek a call Um, how do we understand it to be a divine call seems like those are the two driving questions behind this good Good question. Let's talk about a little bit. So here's the maybe theological background that's super helpful to me

11:26And that is there's a distinction between an immediate call and a mediated call and an immediate call is where God directly says You're my guy in the Old Testament your prophet boom In the New Testament you're an apostle Wow, and when the Lord Immediately calls someone he also speaks through them So that they are those who are authorized to speak and to write on behalf of God It's one of the reasons why we call the scriptures the prophetic and the apostolic word of God Because it's given to us by those who are immediately called by God He also most often supports that immediate call that direct call By giving spiritual gifts and especially the gift of miracles to the people that he called so Paul for example to prove his Um, his call from the Lord Jesus to be an apostle even though he's one called out of order He is given by God the ability the power to perform miracles healing miracles. He raises the dead. He performs miracles

12:29We even his shadow etc Is it Paul's shadow Paul's handkerchief Uh, his perform miracles so the Lord gives them those um Sign gifts to confirm the direct call now. That's different and distinct from a mediated call The call that goes through the church or another institution that the Lord has put in place So in the Old Testament you had the prophets called directly by God and then you had the sons of the prophets Those were called that I mean they went to seminary and they were trained up onto the prophets And they were sent out to preach the words of the prophets, but not their own words They didn't say thus says the Lord they would say thus says Elijah or thus says Moses And the same thing is true in the New Testament you have the apostles called directly by God But then the apostles lay hands on men and and set them in place to preach not Thus says the Lord but this is what the scriptures say in other words they're not getting direct revelation from God They don't have that direct call They have a mediated call to speak the words that have been written down in the scriptures And that's the call pastor Packard that you and I have that's that mediated call

13:32And the indication of that call is not that we perform miracles But rather that we teach the Words of the prophets and the apostles that were called by God So the efficacy and the authenticity the validity of our own ministry is tested against the words of God And so the Bereans for example receive the word with joy, but they tested to see if it was true So this when we're talking about pastors This is what we're talking about this mediated call and we understand that the Lord works through the church Or other institutions, but chiefly through his church to put men into the office But there's all these other things that are there like For example a man has to be above reproach a man has to be able to teach a man has to be the husband of one wife Yeah, a man has to be not given to drunkenness You know the the lists of the requirements for for pastors and teachers in the scripture Mean that it's not a sort of mystical direct call But it's a call that's mediated through wisdom and examination and conversation and so forth

14:36So that I can be confident and you every pastor has to have this confidence That the Lord wants me to preach he's put me into the office I have this call and so it's good that I'm doing this But that doesn't mean that everything that I'm doing in the office is good. It doesn't work the other direction It doesn't mean that I I can't teach falsely. It doesn't mean that I I can't do something wrong In fact, it I can do that and that's Ah Boy that's a that's a even worse sin when I sin in the office It's an even kind of harsher Breaking of God's law than someone who sins out of the office So I think it's an equivalent thing for example to marriage when husband and wife are married to one another Can we say that God is the one who joined them together the answer absolutely what God has joined together let no one separate It's it's holy matrimony. It's a divine work But does that mean that human wisdom and deliberation and careful consideration was not involved? No

15:36In fact, it is so that those two things are working together in the call So so that's our the kind of basic doctrine now. How do we apply that to the Circumstances that we have? Well, it may be reflect on that a little bit But let me pause and see if you can flesh that out and make sure I didn't miss anything or you can correct No, it's doctrine Yeah, yeah I'll bring open charges immediately after we finish recording No I think it's I think it's that that's the distinction in tellful because I think Sometimes the way we talk about the divine call We almost do The way in our struggles can be talked about is almost as if there is not mediated right that it is kind of some kind of direct thing Not God working through human means because if we forget that it's working through means And I think we forget that on the other side on the pastor side There are very practical Decisions that go into that as well like yes, it's divine call But if if I was called somewhere and I look at the call documents and I'm like There's no way I can provide for my family

16:39Like there's there's you know, there's no way for me to do this like humanly speaking. I don't know how Maybe a single guy can make that work, but there's no way I can make that work like That's not saying it's not a divine call, but it's also saying there's there's other factors That go into a pastor making a decision beyond just This is divine call because as a pastor we already have a divine call So now we're discerning between two calls Which means you have to make some very practical decisions Walter talks about some of those things right like Does it give you a greater way to use your gifts for God Which I think is again, but that's so subjective like you're still weighing things that you don't fully know the answer to So Walter gives a lot of things like that like how you're using your gifts how you're gonna be in service to the The local church as well as the larger church those kind of things and all those are useful And at the same time though like um It may not be wise for like maybe you're you have a child with like a severe medical condition

17:39And you need to be close to a major hospital and the place that called you isn't anywhere near one That's that's like a practical issue and so and but you can only really think that way if you know that it is mediated and That I already have a divine call Right, so then we have two it does get confusing I think even the way we talk about it right to say that I have Impassures post this right they get a call and they're like I know have two divine calls I have a divine call to this congregation and to this one and people will say things like well It's to go get it wrong But really we step back and say well you have freedom in Christ to to choose God's giving you two options now And now you get to pick one and that decision is going to be based on a whole lot of factors Um beyond just the fact that it's a divine call because you already have what divine call so what are all the other issues involved? Um Because we have to remember two pastors are also human beings Right me we not always come across that way So it's not great to come across that way, but we actually are human beings

18:40We're just kind of like a theological robot Your sins are forgiven There so this human factors really interesting because it also uh I think of So a call is not like a marriage in this way in that a call is not a A permanent thing or not of necessity a permanent thing. I mean it can be it's not like a contract You're our pastor for three years. We're gonna see how it goes. And I mean it's a it's a Um, it puts you in office and that office doesn't have a terminus but it's not meant to be a uh, now we're pastor and congregation matched up into into eternity to one of us that till death parts us or something like that and and what's really important about this is um For example Paul and Barnabas who were who got in a fight basically And then they decided well, let's go different ways and Paul took Silas and Barnabas took mark and they went different ways

19:43And that was it was not good that they were arguing about this But it was good that they could then say well, that's in our human wisdom just let's separate and it actually ended up doubling the mission that was happening there uh to the glory of the name of Jesus But but this is it sometimes happens in a in a situation where there's two pastors or two congregations or a pastor most likely a pastor in a congregation and they're just They're kind of in a conflict and it's it's okay to say well, you know, one of us is gonna have to go and it's Easier for the pastor to leave than it is for the congregation, you know All you guys go find another church. I'll stay here It's just so the the pastoral flexibility is actually good. It's one of the big problems That's actually baked into the specific ministry program Is that the past those S&P pastors cannot take a call to another place and so there's no pressure release valve, you know, you're our pastor and you're our pastor here until you die or quit or whatever

20:44And so that there's no sort of human way to say well Just for whatever reason. Let's kind of go this way So for a pastor to seek a call. It's not that I mean it's an indication that there's something going on It depends on the the reason. I mean some pastors could think well, you know, I've done I've done what I can here in this place and it and this congregation would be better served at this point by another man Or it could be that There's could be conflict and we're kind of locked in to some sort of intractable dispute and you know, we've done our best to get through it and maybe it's time to Move on. It's blocking the ministry and move all these kind of practical concerns can come up and that doesn't negate the fact That it's a divine call that the Lord is the one who institutes the office Who's who puts men in the office and who promises that through the preaching of the word He would save those who believe through the foolishness of the preaching of the word He would save those who believe and that the Lord will have

21:44Throughout the world people who are giving out his gifts of baptism and the supper So that's that that's the divine nature of the call and it doesn't Conflict with all these other kind of human things that are entering into it I think one thing maybe that helps churches to our booking for a pastor See this public online from time to time like we've been looking for a pastor for so many years We can't find one any of your variety of reasons for that one of them Two of the biggest ones I see time and time again though is one the churches often offering a very low like Pay for so like a man with a family Like he's just not feasible for them to to take that call Right, and then they call out the family and he looks at it's like uh, I don't know how would I how would I do this right? um or like If you want someone to move across the country You probably need to cover their moving expenses because it's because a pastor can't afford to go

22:45Take a $5,000 more hit right to move someplace else Like they just most most pastors cannot afford that so a lot of times I see very low moving expenses or or very low Pay or especially if you're trying to call someone of the family like And no the pastor's not trying to get rich off of his job, but he does need to provide for For his family he's got to take care of people and so and sometimes I don't think Cargillians realize how low it actually is or for example Like the housing market like they've been in their their town for 20 30 years Right, so they've been locked in at way lower rates and you call a guy today And his rights can be two or three times higher than yours for from a loan for example So And he looks at homes is like man, I those homes are really expensive. They're like no housing is cheaper Because you you know you've had your your loan forever um And things like that like those are some just in practical things I've seen discussed online that I'm like these are the things I hear guys saying when they get calls

23:50Uh, time and time again on the practical sides. It's it's not usual usually like Them trying to be greedy or them trying to like I don't know like some weird motive or something It's usually just like man, I I can't take care of my family And or I can't afford to move there or I can't find housing or I can't afford to pay for them moving expenses Whatever it is those are the things I see come up all the time. So For churches looking look at those things and be really honest about what it costs to live in your community What it costs to get a house in your community And what it would actually cost for a man with a family to move there Like really know those things before you send off call documents This hurts could help with that a lot too. Yep. Yep. It's great All right next one What do you do when prayer makes things worse? Oh, let's hear about this one. Wow. All right. I'm gonna have to be again Even when people put like don't mention my name like You know if I give too much details

24:52Even without their name is probably not hard for someone involved to like figure it out. So I'm gonna try to be really careful for For a number of years for a very long time This person has a situation with her family where they have His parents and His wife Do not get along and he's prayed about it and it seems like over this time The more he prays about it the worse it gets And so He's giving up praying for that thing because he feels like if I pray about it it just makes it worse But what's happening now to is his confidence in prayer as a whole Is starting to slip because he feels like he prays and praying makes the thing worse So what do you tell someone who feels like their prayers are making the situation worse with no hope seemingly Of it getting better. I think so this is not an uncommon experience. So

25:55the practical theological thing That every Christian wrestles with is prayer I mean it just it's constant and and at least for me when I go to confess my sins This is the thing that's like right there at the top confessing constantly my neglect of prayer my laziness and prayer my hesitancy and prayer and the and the devil here's where the devil tries to be a theologian too And the devil whenever the devil shows up to do some theological work It's connected to prayer with stuff like well if God knows What you need why do you why do you need to ask them? Which is the opposite of what Jesus says right? He says your father knows what you need before you ask therefore pray But the devil comes and says your father knows what you need before you ask therefore why pray So so our prayers are constantly being assaulted. It's important maybe just to remember this fact that the Lord Um Whenever he acts in the Bible, it's almost always in answer to prayer and he has promised over and over

26:58To hear our prayer and to answer it and deliver it I will hear your prayer and I will deliver you Psalm 50 verse 15, which is the kind of the famous promise Of prayer that the Lutherans rely on But it's always good to remember that every prayer starts as an unanswered prayer And it will be an unanswered prayer According to the Lord's will As long as he has determined that unanswered to be helpful for us So it starts as an unanswered prayer because if we had it we wouldn't be asking for it and it is It is according to the Lord's provision For our prayers to remain unanswered So that he can He can do his work with us This is why Jesus whenever he tells parables about prayers He tells them so that we would be persistent and not grow weary That's the specific

27:59Introduction to the prayers for example in Luke 11 Jesus told these parables so that they would not so that we would not grow weary in our prayers and the and what are the parables Are the remember the widow who goes to the unrighteous judge and he doesn't fear God He doesn't fear man. He's just a wicked guy But she keeps going to him demanding justice and finally he gives her justice Because he's just tired of hearing From her and Jesus says pray like that Or the man who has visitors come in the middle of the night and he doesn't have any food to give him So he goes and knocks on his neighbor's door and he says the kids are asleep. We're asleep Come back in the morning and he just sits there and knocks And all not he'd sit there all night and knock Until his neighbor out of frustration will give up and give him some tortillas or whatever This is the how Jesus is teaching us to pray that's So that and here's where the the asked Seek knock comes in Luther in fact Here's maybe the most practical piece of advice for the person sending in the question is

29:03Take a look at the worldwide Bible class videos or audio Because we're studying the Genesis commentary and it's basically a commentary on prayer and suffering I mean, that's all Luther thinks about and talks about prayer and suffering and and he says this is what the Lord Jesus is teaching us when he says Ask seek knock that first we ask for what we need Lord please Make peace and reconciliation between my parents and my wife And if he if the Lord doesn't do that then we seek in the scriptures to see if we're asking for the right thing And we see in the scriptures that there's often conflict between Between parents and spouses But that the Lord desires for families to live together in peace That the Lord is he's promised that he hasn't brought peace on earth But that he does give us the the fruit of the spirit of peace And so then we knock after we seek and know that we're praying for the right thing Then we knock that is we just keep praying for it Lord you've promised that the fruit of the spirit is peace that the peacemakers are blessed

30:07So make me a peacemaker make my wife a peacemaker you've promised these things you've promised in James chapter one Lord you've promised to give wisdom to all who ask so give me wisdom to know how to to Bring about a reconciliation or whatever so that we're we're asking for the thing the Lord to keep the promises that he's made and And this is the Christian call to pray Even when we don't see the answer Especially when we don't see the answer we're like Jacob holding on to the foot of Jesus and saying I'm not going to let you go until you bless me. I'm not going to let you go Like the woman who follows Jesus the Sire for nation woman who follows Jesus into the house even though she said the crumbs aren't for you Therefore the the I'm not here to feed the dogs but the lost children in the house of Israel She goes into the house and says just give me the crumbs This is the example that Jesus has given in in prayer so that we don't we we're fighting against the temptation All of us are fighting against the temptation to grow weary in prayer

31:09Yeah, or even sometimes this is related to me. We talked about I think it was last week Right where um people might ask their pastor pray because they think maybe he's closer to God So he'll get a better answer or whatever But I can tell you as a pastor there have been times where there's things I've been praying for for years where um I'm like Maybe it is my own wickedness maybe if my wife just prays for this more right like you wonder I think everyone struggles with this like man. It does seem to be getting worse Sometimes too. I think we have to acknowledge going back to me and you said about this is Um, maybe it getting worse is the way the Lord's answering the prayer Right like we don't we don't see the big picture We don't understand how he's working all things together for a good like it could be getting worse before it gets better Maybe not we don't have that You know, we don't have a promise regarding these specific things But it can be that the thing is getting worse because God is working And it has to get worse before it gets better and we just can't understand it to or see it or or know that And that's and that's probably a problem right is that we can't actually see what God's doing

32:12We can't only see what God's doing in the situation Like we can't see what he's doing in the hearts and minds of others We can't see how he is working And so to us it may feel like nothing is happening Nothing's been answered and maybe lots of things are happening You're just not Prevy to them yet. It's not time for you to know yet And those things are going on Well, we're actually teaching on the persistent wind widow from Luke 18 for Bible study this this Sunday So I was thinking about that as well And right she just doesn't give up she's just She's annoying she noise the guy it's the point where he isn't one of his reputation to be ruined He doesn't want to be embarrassed so he finally just relents And the promise of that is that you know God God is going to do the right thing for you Right God's going to do its best and we just we have to trust him And that's part of what CFW Walther says about prayer when God says wait He's teaching us to depend on him to keep going to him in prayer Even when we don't see the result even when we can't see it working out or happening

33:13We're learning to trust him We're learning to cling to Christ. We're learning to pray more We're learning to just keep going to him Without giving up we are learning to persevere. We're learning endurance. We're learning all these things that God's teaching us And so maybe more is going on than we think we can understand and we should trust him and his promises like And I think the reason you know the other person mentioned there he's he's giving up on praying and other parts of his life But it's and part of it seems like because he's put so much pressure on like God must answer it's in this way in this time The way I want it answered versus you know sometimes our prayer just has to be I don't understand how you can do this You're will be done right like we don't We don't always know what's best. We sometimes pray for things and God says You know what you think they'd be the best thing right now But really this thing's going to be the best thing right now and really get it giving you that right now is not what's best for you or the situation

34:15And so you got to wait and as someone who's waiting on things to be answered like who's been I mean, I haven't been praying this person's been praying for much longer on this issue than I've been praying for Some issues but over four or five years now Um, so I get it like I get the frustration I get the Get the wanting to give up but I also know what God promises. I was thinking about um St Monica, right She prayed for 30 years for her son to be converted Um, and that you know she that's a long time to pray 30 years is a Really long time to wait for her prayer to be answered Uh, and yet she persisted right she prayed Luthier talked about how Joseph in prison in Egypt was praying that he could just go home and see his father And the whole time the Lord was setting up a throne in Egypt. He couldn't have even prayed for that I mean, he had no he had no capacity to pray for that. Yeah Uh, and so this is how the Lord is working sometimes especially when it looks like he's not answering

35:16When he's not answering the prayers and so God bless you And all of us. I mean we are fighting against this weirdness of prayer All right, next one's on baptism actually the next tour on baptism all right, uh first one is um They recently joined a small LCMist church and a small town And it sounds like they're new to LCMist as well And it's something happened that be Makes some questions and things about their own baptism. Okay, so they they saw some adults and infants and Get baptized yeah, and they're wondering How is it different for an adult versus an infant and should they who are baptized many years ago in a Presbyterian church should they be baptized again um Because they're an adult now and they didn't really remember to understand it as a child so This has them questioning their own baptism but it also questioning what's the difference between it?

36:19Adult and a child being baptized great question. So there is No difference It is the same there is one baptism That's what Paul says one baptism one God and father of us all in Ephesians 4 Let God be true in every man a liar So baptism is the Lord's work to wash us. That's the beautiful baptismal text from Ephesians chapter 5 that Christ washed the church and cleansed her with the washing and the water and the word And so it's the Lord's work Bapped to a baby or adult No matter it's the Lord's work of washing There's an awareness of the thing that's happening that is um A lot more profound with adults There's an awareness of faith that oftentimes is more profound with Adults versus children what the old deologians called how did they say it? reflective faith feedies reflectiva

37:21or Something like that that the faith that's aware of itself so You can have faith and not know it like Because you don't have the capacity to or because you're you're asleep or whatever If you have the capacity to know what's going on inside of you you have a developed spirit or conscience that's actually able to kind of comprehend that stuff that's going on inside then you realize oh man. I believe in Jesus But a lot of times that faith happens before you realize it and then you realize it and and so there's a difference between saving faith and reflective faith Has to do with our capacity to know what's happening inside of us and it's one of the big confusions of evangelicalism Is that it mistakes reflective faith with saving faith it equates that so that you have to know that you're a believer To be a believer that would exclude children and the mentally incapacitated and everyone taking an app So we want to make that distinction not a separation, but a distinction We and we want to quickly say look if you have the capacity to know what's going on inside of you

38:23And you're a believer you ought to know it though your heart You're the spirit testifies with your spirit that you are a child of God That's the confidence that we have But if if you don't know if you if you don't have the capacity to know what's going on in the spirit That doesn't exclude the Lord creating faith there Okay, so the we rejoice in the gift of baptism especially if it was given to us apart from our Choosing or going or whatever if we were carried to the gift of baptism by our parents or by our grandparents or godparents or whatever We praise the Lord if the Lord Waded to call us to hold the baptism later to where we could remember what's going on We praise the Lord, but it is the same gift and no need to be re-baptized in fact There's no such thing as re-baptism. There is only one baptism Okay, I'm trying to analogy this is not my thing. This is your thing, but I'm gonna So the energizing your eye thing? Okay, yeah, you're you're good at analogies. I this isn't my thing But I'm on I'm on very thin ice, but we'll see let's go. I'm ready all right

39:26So if you have a father and their newborn child and someone generously Comes and says look I don't want either you to ever want for anything again and gives both billions of dollars Right, it's yours. It's free. Here it is The father is going to understand that differently than the newborn But if the father does a good job raising the child that child will Delight in that gift right as it begins to understand what that gift is and means and as they get older They appreciate it more and more and but they still have the gift They both got the gift but how they understand the gift at those times in life is gonna be different Cheyenne and I think I think baptism is very similar like the adult is doing this knowing fully what's receiving the child doesn't quite yet know what's receiving it doesn't mean they don't receive it Just means they're not able to one articulate fully what they've received right um That's why I'd say there's one difference because I do think a child does have faith in Christ even though it can't articulate it um Because Christ is working faith in their hearts, but um they have the same gift they just can't

40:28talk about What they are gonna do with a gift or how they've received the gift yet. They're not able to so that's my I think that's great. I would adjust one word and I think it's important though So the adult fully understands but I but and that was the adult understands more More fully but none of us fully understand what gets this given in baptism and and this is I this is the one of our arguments against the kind of adult only baptism Which they call believers baptism we have to reject that by out of hand by saying look we we practice believers baptism We don't exclude children from being believers. That's I mean that's big But if someone says well don't you you had a way to understand what baptism is and my responses well Then you would never be baptized none of us can can actually fully understand what gifts baptism gives I mean I think in eternity in the heaven in the new heaven and the new earth Uh and and whatever many however we understand years in eternity will still be reflecting on the depth of the love of God that he that is expressed by baptism

41:35So that so that we we understand better than a child Uh more than a child, but I understand more about baptism this year than last year You know and hopefully Lord willing next year will be even more than this year the gifts that the Lord gives in baptism Uh and so we we we never fully understand the the depth of it But it's also important that when Jesus called a child before us and says here's the example of faith We got to really take that seriously is that a child Here okay, so here's and here's my analogy I might have told you this before say you're driving down the street you're Five years old and you're in the front seat of the car. Oh back seat. Maybe you have to sit in the back seat now your and your dad said hey Uh Jump in the car Brian. We're gonna go get a A frosty at Wendy's So I jump in the car and off we drive and the windows down and some guy in the street says hey, where are you going? And I said I'm going to I'm going to my dad to get a frosty at Wendy's and And he says how do you know that he says well dad said get in we'll go get a frosty

42:38And the guy in the sidewalk says well you must have a profound Faith and trust in your dad's words to to jump in the car with him to go get a frosty at Wendy's And you say uh We're going to get a frosty Like you don't you don't even know that you have faith you just know dad said frosty and you said Let's go. I mean That it's not you you don't know that you have faith you just know the voice of your father and you and and you uh you know that the words that come out of the father's mouth Are are for you You're just you just embrace them and that it's called faith you're not even aware of But this is how it is. I mean, even you know children in the womb recognize the voice of their parents It's so that's such a profound picture picture of what faith is my sheep hear my voice and they follow me So that we when we are called to be Christians we just know that God Gives commands and gives promises and it's for us. It's it's so beautiful

43:42All that's to say you do not need to be baptized then either right you are baptized you have it's your We should actually they'll say this so It is good to go back say you left the church and you're coming back or you're coming to the Lutheran Church and the pastor should ask you or you baptized and and you're like well I think so But it's good to go say hey mom dead was I baptized to call if you don't mom dead around to go to the church Hey, is there a record of my baptism and here's one of the problems of feminist theology or Of like one this panacostalism is that they Messed with baptism by doing all this kind of nonsense. So you're baptized like in the early aughts to early 2000s In some ELCH church on the coasts and you're like, I don't know if they baptized me in the name of the father So I'm a holy spirit or some goof like in the name of the mother and the and the daughter and the great spirit or something And then you're like, I don't know so it's good to go back and get your baptismal certificate look at the records etc

44:43And if there's some question like We were moving between the Methodist and Baptist Church and like we were we were baptized when I was a kid And then we switched in middle school to become Methodist and I'm not sure I don't remember being baptized and maybe they assume that I was and whatever then It's fine to go and be baptized In other words if there's a question mark to say I desire to gift a baptism and I'm just not sure if I had it yet So I'm going to receive it not as a rebaptism But as a baptism knowing that the Lord knows and and kind of in that context It's wonderful. So that's the practical side of things All right another one on baptism. Okay infant baptism faith and exorcism. Oh So this is Talking about something you wrote. So you're summary of the scriptures teaching infant born and preborn faith is very helpful resource and tells us that infants absolutely can believe the promise of salvation given in baptism

45:43There does some seem to be some tension in the Lutheran perspective though when the Lutheran fathers baptized babies They would first exercise the child Adjuring the unclean spirit to depart and make room for the Holy Spirit At the same time the Lutheran saying of their hoping God's mercy and grace given through his word even before baptism Can you speak to this tension? Yeah So There I should look this up. Why don't you speak to this? I'm going to look for this line in the large catechism Where Luther says faith is given before or if not in baptism in other words We don't know So I'm going to look for that while you talk about this Well, I also had a follow up question for this too that I'll ask because this I saw um I guess repristinations Presses sub-stack had an article I think it was a week or two ago on How I can remember which Lutheran father was went to get rid of the exorcism in the right of baptism

46:44So maybe the first question we can answer is because people might be wondering about this There is and Luther's right which is in our agenda as well You can use it as an option. It's not in the hymnal but Lutheran pastors can use it You do say Departs unclean spirit make room for the Holy Spirit. Yeah, so maybe we'll start with that. What is that? Why is that there? and then Like why would why would a Lutheran pastor do that for a baby? Are we saying that the baby is demon possessed? Is that what we're saying? Yes, so I think that's a question. Yeah, so here's the understanding is that we are a born Children of wrath and so the understanding is that Part of our fallen nature if you can think of it like you know You've got the soul which is like the tabernacle and you've got the Holy of Holies that your spirit and it's there and that is possessed By the devil and the demons Apart from the Lord's word removing them So part of our being born as unbelievers is being possessed by the devil this and

47:47Man we got to get better at this because we normally think of like demonic possession as this kind of violent manifestation where people's eyes are rolling back and they're floating or whatever Kind of crazy stuff happens in the movies. It is important for us to know that the spirit of every unbeliever is possessed by the devil And when he possesses them their goods are at peace. There's a kind of peacefulness It's a twisted deceptive peacefulness that exists in the conscience of every unbeliever So that I mean to say it clearly Everyone every single unbeliever is spiritually possessed by the devil And that's the natural condition of man That when we're born we're born sinful and unclean and We're not the children of God. We are like Jesus says of the of the Of the Jews and Jerusalem and John chapter eight. He says you are of your father the devil So that's our natural condition children of wrath

48:49And so the Lord has to transfer us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light in his son So that every conversion is an exorcism And especially when there's an infant baptism. This is that kind of Expression of conversion. So we have that in the address. We're all born Well, how does it say in the baptismal dress? Can you think of the words off the top of your head? We're all born Oh It's terrible that I can't think of it off the top of my head and it's terrible that someone stole my hymn. Ah here it is So even in the normal baptismal right We are lost forever unless Christ claims us as his own That's the that's the language that's there I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about it here The word of God also teaches that we're all conceived and born sinful and are under the power of the devil until Christ claims us as his own We would be lost forever unless delivered from sin death and everlasting condemnation But the father of all mercy and grace as sin as son Jesus Christ to a tone for the sin of the whole world

49:53That whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life And then the minor exorcism would come in there. So our understanding of baptism is this conversion from death to life from darkness to light Has it happened already invisibly by the word of God before the person comes to baptism? Well in fact in some ways that's assumed by the baptismal right that says do believe in Jesus Christ But maybe it doesn't happen before maybe it happens in baptism. This is the the the the whole thing kind of working together So that the Lord is working in baptism to bring us into into his family Well, this also goes I think it's questions again to like Luther's Advice to women who have had miscarriages right that the church has Given this child to gods through prayer and then we trust that God is merciful and that though ordinarily God is bound to Right his means It doesn't mean that that God can't give a child's rights

50:57Those the gift of faith apart from those means Uh, we're saying this is how he ordinarily does stuff not that he must always do it that way Which is something our the other Various with and fathers have talked about with like children right time the womb Because I think some people want to say well, they heard the word in the womb Right, okay, that You can do that too, but also like God God can because you've you've prayed for that child, right? Um as Luther says and give them to God in in prayer As the church and as the parents and you can trust in God's mercy for that child to rescue them Even if you are unable to baptize them So that's where that confidence comes from is that we're looking to a merciful God who's made certain promises to us And we know that he can do things Even if they don't work out the way they're ordinarily supposed to work out like ordinarily you want the child to be born in the baptized Well, if they die in the womb That wasn't even a possibility, right? So Luther's wrestling with that and showing how God is faithful

51:59Even when we can't do what we would ordinarily want to be done Here here is the section I was looking for in large catechism so it's large catechism Part four On baptism the infant baptism section paragraph 57 So I this whole thing I would commend to everybody. It's so great But Luther says so we do likewise an infant baptism We bring the child in the conviction and hope that it believes And we pray that God may grant it faith Well, which is it yes? But we do not baptize it for that reason But solely because of God's command why because we know that God doesn't lie It quotes Titus 1, but I think it actually should be Romans 2 I and my neighbor and in short all people may err and deceive but God's word cannot err so So that we Bring the baby to be baptized because it because it believes we bring the baby to be baptized because in faith faith in baptism faith is given the answers yes absolutely and that even baptism is working that exorcism

53:01And faith in us all throughout our lives even afterwards So that our baptism is always expiling the devil our baptism is in in some ways this kind of perpetual Exorcism and it's the thing that I mean when Jesus goes into the wilderness to fight the devil It's it's they're about his baptism. I mean You are my son in whom I in whom I'm well pleased and the devil comes this is what the father says to the son in his baptism And the devil comes and says if you are the son of God if you are the son of God so that baptism is is is the kind of a uh encapsulated or condensed version of spiritual warfare As far as this says the moment you're baptized the devil's closer to you than the shirt on your back Right like he's ready to attack Because you've been taken out of his kingdom put into God's kingdom and now you're his enemy So one moment you were In his camp the next moment moment you're moved from it and put into the Lord's camp

54:01And now that means you've got a target on your back And Luther goes into great detail describing how that you know It's like he has a basically like a gun pointed at you at all times like he's ready to just pounce on you because now you're You're in the enemy territory as like Lewis would use to talk about Right talk about God From Satan's perspective. Yeah, this is so the question is I don't think I mean I see the desire for the question to be like well, which is do we baptize the babies because they're believers or because baptism creates faith do we baptize Babies because the devil's been exercised or is baptism and exorcism you like you we wanted to be clean But Eve but it's not It each thing kind of is on its own so So like say someone comes to you and they're like They hear the preaching and they hear the absolution and their sins are forgiven And then they say why want to be baptized you would never say well you don't need to be baptized because you're already born again No baptism is that

55:02Is that being born again? It's not a second being born again But it's the gift of being born again that the Lord is accomplishing and then you say well if my sins were forgiven already in baptism or in the preaching why do I have to be baptized and the answers well This is just what Jesus does and and he wants to give us this um added assurance that That I I belong to him I am part of his family and I can point to it. I can say I'm baptized and it my confidence rests on this um, I mean it's just It's the it's the way the Lord is set it up And so it's not it's not some sort of mechanical reductionistic thing. It's this overabundance that the Lord gives in Ah, I don't know in life and in death. It's I suppose it's like You know when you have a baby you name the baby Like Isaac was named I don't know. He's he was a day and a half old and we said you are Isaac Wolfmüller well

56:03Was he Isaac Wolfmüller before we like signed the birth certificate? Well yeah, he he was but there's a there's a real thing that's happened there But it doesn't mean that you know before that he he didn't have a name or he didn't exist or something like that It's it's uh that the Lord puts his name on us in baptism is a real thing But it doesn't mean that there was no working of the Lord to save and to create faith before that I answer great word and on we're done we're done. Thanks everyone for your questions If you know we're a little behind on these questions. So someone sent a note they said hey you should remind people that Instead of waiting for 17 years to aunt for us to answer You can ask your pastor too. That's good. I always said you should everyone should have a list of theological questions Just in a notebook and then once it fills a page take your pastor out for a couple coffee and be like hey I got a few questions for you and that's great So he's your greatest theological resource. Make sure you go to his Bible class Uh and take advantage of that Thank you for sending the questions this way as well. It's a lot of fun wolfmuller.com

57:05Contact when you're there you can sign up for the Wednesday whatnot You can also find information of to go to Israel with pastor packer That's on his website His sub stack oh you could sign up for his sub stack too where he tells you about all the books that he's reading Makes you feel bad that you don't read as much but nevermind. That might be a personal problem So thanks for being involved All you YouTube theologians out there. Thanks pastor packer gods peace be with you You