Popina

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1:00From the Vine Pure Podcast Network, this is the build out, and I'm your host, Adam Teeter. Today we're going to talk with one of my favorite restaurants in Brooklyn, also one that like, I will never forget this, when they first opened, sent me a cold email to come by no PR, nothing, and I was just super impressed by that, because you would be shocked at how rare that happens. And I was like, I'm going to be like, I'm going to be shocked by that, because you would be shocked at how rare that happens. The restaurant tour is James and the restaurant's papina. James, thanks for joining me. Of course, thanks for having me. Also probably like, the most named like secret, som, spot, they all want to go drink on their days off. But I think why I was excited to have you is, first of all, it's an amazing space. You've been open for a very long time at this point, but also you took a location that is very hard to be successful in, right? You open on the Columbia Street Waterfront, Brooklyn, which for those who do not live in New York, is a very hard location to get to, right?

2:02You are like a 15, 20 minute walk from the closest subway stop. Great once you're down there, but like hard, right? But very close to a very beautiful well off neighborhood of Cobble Hill, and you did it. And you've been there for what, eight years? Yes, it'll be nine years in the end of August. So talk me, and also I was impressed, you emailed us and we were still very young of Vine Paraming. So how did puppy and I happen? And how'd you get into the industry to begin with? Let's start there. How'd you get into the industry to begin with? For sure. So I was bartending in college just to kind of pay for college. College was where? Marist in Piquipsi, which is funny because now, I'm friends with so many people that went to a culinary institute just in Hyde Park and at the same time, but never ran into anyone. And so yeah, so it was just bartending at legitimately dive bars, bartending or DJing,

3:02and just to make some money. And yeah, then I graduated and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I thought I wanted to go into film, but it didn't work out. There's a longer story there, but I'll keep it short. And then long story short, I dated a chef and she kind of got me into food and drink in a way that I wasn't in in college. Like, there was a lot of like, you never had this on dates and stuff. Like you never had eggs, you never had ketchup. Come on, you had eggs. Like senior year of college. Wow. Yeah. My mom is a saint. She's like the fact that she hasn't killed me growing up. I don't want to eat that. Yeah, I don't know. There was just like a lot of like, pasta with butter, which is funny now because like when kids come into the restaurant, I'm just like, kids with pasta with butter. Like we have to have like, do they? You know, like we like cater to a lot of that.

4:05Yeah, you have. But yeah, I don't know, somewhere along the way, I like looked at food is like, oh, I want to try that versus like, I just looked at food in a different way. And then fast forward to, I was sitting at the bar at Grammarcy, a different girl that I was talking to, took me out there and we just had like, an amazing birthday lunch. And you know, those lunches at Grammarcy that like just, you know, it was snowing, it was like hours like you make friends with people at the bar, the food is amazing. And I remember the bartender just being like, asking me questions that I never asked people behind the bar that I was like working. You know, do you like what kind of cocktail do you like? Do you like spicy? Do you like like what like what is like, I was like more of like a whiskey on the rocks kind of guy. Yeah. Maybe had the occasional glass of wine because you know, we got a bottle and I didn't want it to go to waste. You know, like I wasn't interested in the wine,

5:05but I would just drink it because it was alcohol, right? And like that's what you did at dinner. So, so I was at the bar at Grammarcy for lunch and I was like, I kind of like worked for this guy. Like people do this for a living and not just like, you know, like to me it was just always to have hospitality was, yeah, it was just a means to get some money. And so, and yeah, I just like never thought it was like a legit job because like my my sister was a pharmacist, my other sister was a lawyer and like my family was like, oh cool, like you, you know, they were very supportive of once that once they did find out I was going this direction, but it just like never seemed like the, you know, my my mom always like referred J the bartender, you know, like that was such like, you know, it just like felt like it wasn't like a noble career, you know. So then I enrolled in the Culinary Institute of Culinary Education for their management program here in the city. And before they got to the fancy campus downtown.

6:08And then I took that course and I just, I, I, I remembered my time at Grammarcy and I was like looking for places to work. And of course, you know, you can't work anywhere unless you have New York experience. And we know that story. And then there was an opening at a table, little did I know there was an opening probably be because they were closing. But I worked there for about a year before they took you without the New York experience. Yeah. I think I just like, I think I just interviewed, interviewed well and I was willing to do like anything. So I ended up being a bar back there. Okay. And then we found out that it was closing, but, you know, I was one of those places, I was one of those people that, you know, I want to kind of stick it through. And I think Danny and the team at USHG was like very good about saying like, Hey, like we will place you somewhere else within our company. Like don't worry, we're not going to.

7:09And it was very important for them to not just be one of those, I mean, how many spots do we like learn that, like there's staff shows up and they just like the doors are locked, you know? So they were very good about, okay, like they had a career fair with all their other GMs. And it was like really cool. And so that's when I went to my Alino. I so was it 2010, I guess. So my Alino had been open for like a year. And my Alino was one of those places that like, again, like I talked to this guy Terry and like I would have like, like I don't know, there was just like such like good energy there that I was like, I don't do it. Like I don't care that I was a bar, like ended up as a bartender at Tableau before they closed. I don't care that like I feel like I have the experience that I could just be a bartender. They were like, you need to like start as a food runner and then a server and then a bartender. And I was just like, yeah, like let's go. And so I worked for Alino for like on and off for like five years. Wow. And that's kind of where I really kind of just dove into hospitality.

8:15And I worked there till 15. That's where I met my former business partner, Chris, who was a sous chef at Alino. And then I think, and then I did a little traveling, traveling was always something that was like super important to me. And you're just getting out and seeing the world. And so I had a couple of trips there. So my last position at Alino was a manager. So I went from like food runner to a manager all within, you know, five years on and off. And that- When did you get the wine bug? Oh, I think when I worked at Alino. So I started when Liz Nicholson was the wine director. And I think, you know, she was, she was one of those people who would like talk about like the little, low lady on the hill, like planting this like grape, tarolbo go or something. And it wasn't about my wine experience before that was very like technical.

9:16It was like, what do you smell like? And like it was like from like a very like structured, I hated it actually. Like it was because I was a picky eater. So like every when the when the master sommelier in training at this restaurant in New Jersey, Stonehouse was like, hey, like tell me what you smell and what you taste. And I was like, I like legitimately like I was like answering like grapes, you know? Like and I was like, I had no idea. And it was very like stressful because I always like felt like I was always like, I was like really great at everything else. And as soon as it came to like analyzing wine, I just like felt like I had like I was like very bad at it. I would give you like the technical answer that I like read about. Right. Then like if you put something in front of me that I had no idea what it was, it was bad. So, but like Liz, Liz, I came at it at like she was, I mean, the training at USAG is amazing. Like they they had training at like family meal or like a pre shift.

10:19And then they would do stuff at the home office with like John Reagan. And so it was really great to kind of and when you're in Italy, you like, Italian wine, you like dive deep, right? So you're like learning all the things. And and then Jeff Kellogg took over the program at my Alino. And that's when my like, so Liz allowed me to like love wine and like love the people and the stories and all that. And then Jeff was like, well, cool. That's that's great. But like you actually have to know how to like analyze it. And like you can't just you have to like have like a little bit of a the that. Hey, like let's taste this. Let's talk about it. Let's build your vocabulary. And so like Jeff was like really good at like the more of the like the technical aspect of it, where I think if you take the love and like the technical aspect, then like, you know, you kind of have the best of both worlds. And so I was super lucky to have them. As like mentors and and and then yeah, I just think from that it was just, you know,

11:22you would spend all your the money you made going to like the restaurant, like go to the modern, spend your Danny dollars drink, drink the wine that you couldn't afford. And like, yeah, I think we just we also have like a really good group of people that came from that my Alino set that like went on to do amazing things. I mean, talk about that a bunch. I feel like the time that you were there and my Alino, but I also feel like USHG in particular, like that sort of 2008 to like 2014, the talent that was at his restaurants was fucking insane. Yeah. And the people that left to do other stuff has been crazy for like so many amazing places all through like that school of his. Like if you just had this family tree, it's like some of the places that are still like the hardest to get into New York or the most critically law or whatever, all Danny Alums basically. For sure. I mean, one of them, I think you had on this podcast. He will have aired before you're so you asked it. Chase, yeah, like Claude, I mean lots of stuff.

12:25Lots of people. It's really it's impressive. Jenny and Jimmy's like just lots of crazy people. So then when do you get the bug that you got to open your own spot? So I was like toying around with, well, I was like supposed to open Martina, the Marta Fask casual concept with Nick and... Champagne of Paper Cups. Yeah, exactly. And it was at 12th Street between 3rd and 2nd Avenue or something. Yeah, so I ended up working at Marta for like a little bit because I thought I was going to do that project and then it was like kind of one of those like where you're like, you know, hey, what's going on? Yeah. Hey, what's going on? I like, I didn't come here to be a bartender and like nothing against like I love working there. But I just like didn't go there to be a bartender. So I realized that that was like not in the cards for whatever reasons, whether it's like corporate stuff or maybe I just wasn't the right fit. I don't know. But once I like left there, I ended up just helping a friend.

13:30Like I was like bartending. She was opening her concept and I was just like helping out and kind of just just like bartending and like I think that's when I like started looking at spaces. Okay. And then I linked, I went on like a big trip and then I linked up with Chris and actually Chase was like, hey, you should talk to Chris because Chris was actually, Chris and Chase were like tight at that time. And Chase was at was still like, I think that that time was probably at like, what's like the John Frazier restaurant that was like in the hotel down there. Oh yeah, Narcissa. Yeah. So I think he was like there, but we ended up like linking up and we were like, hey, how just you should like hit up Chris. So I hit up Chris. We like, I think we went to like Russ and daughters or something and we were, we were just talking about like what kind of restaurant that we would open if we did open up something and at that time I was, I was kind of like looking at spaces. I think he was looking at spaces, but we couldn't really, I think it was, that was like the start of it.

14:34Did you know how you were going to pay for it? I mean, you're looking at spaces because you hear this a lot. Like people are like, yeah, we're looking at spaces, but like, how are you going to fund it? For sure. I mean, I don't think that, I think like, yeah, I honestly, it was kind of like a funny thing. Yeah. So I think we, once I like, once we thought that we would be good partners and and be the right like fit, I think that's when we were like, okay, like, so what does opening up a restaurant actually look like because USHG was amazing for a lot of things. The one thing that I think that maybe they do better now, but like they never really like let you like know the financials or like anything like that, which I wish they they had some kind of programming to like, I mean, I got a little of that at the culinary, the, you know, that program, but I feel like that was before and then it's like kind of like one of those things where if like, you don't use it, you lose it. Yeah. So I felt like I like learned it, but then like it became all about like more hospitality and looking for more and guest relations and operations and, and so I'm like kind of like

15:38re-teaching myself like a lot of the stuff that I like learn, like thinking about like, there was a professor down at the Institute of culinary education that like gave me like a lot of like of his time and like I would always email and call and he actually like let me re-take some of the classes. Really? Yeah, I was like, hey, I paid for this once, but I wanted it. Yeah. Wow. And it was cool because at that time they actually switched down to the other campus in Battery Park. And so it was like, I was like re kind of thinking because when I first put together my business plan for that project, it was like a diner that had like retro things and cocktails and I was like, well, I'm not doing that anymore. I actually, you know, have a clearer idea of what I want to do. Long story short and also short is I ended up linking up on it, you know, Keith Ders. The name sounds familiar, but. So there's this guy Adam Ries who, who like I know and has been like a huge kind of like help in opening up my project, like the projects and connecting me to people.

16:43And so he connected me with Keith. Keith runs FOC. They like connect a lot of people. They like anything from like a brokerate. Oh, from the shop. Yeah, exactly. So this was like back when Keith, I think Keith had like maybe like two like employees. Now his business has like, you know, he's he's like expanded and done amazing things. But I think back then he was like doing a selective amount of like deals and he ended up introducing Chris and I to our current or to the landlord of the Popeena space. And it was Andy, it was Andy Richter's old Pock Pock Pad Thai. And that was on that was on Columbia Street. So like so we were looking at spaces and basically and Williams, like Chris, Chris wanted Williamsburg because he lived there. I wanted the financial district, but then we were like, we were like, yeah. And then we were looking at rents and we were like, holy shit.

17:44Like like, are you are we ready to pay like $30,000 a month in rent for our first project? And so I think we kind of, we were like super gung ho about just going like we were like, we're opening a spot. And like at this time again, kind of like maybe this was like very naive, but I had no fucking idea how to like where the money was going to come from. I think we were just like, well, let's go like see the spaces. Like let's get excited about it. I think like the menu stuff like kind of came easy and all that. But it's like, where is this restaurant going to be? Yeah. So I think we, we kind of like burnt out a little bit like looking for like a year or so. And I think we just were like, oh well, if we're not going to like take a 30k a month space, like maybe this is just maybe we're not going to do this. And we're just going to go back for a work in for people. And we ended up getting linked. So Keith hooked us up with my current landlord, who's this guy Greg O'Connell, who owns a bunch of stuff in the Columbia waterfront. And at that time,

18:46Pock Pock had the space on the corner, which was like their main space. They had Pock Pock Pat Thai and they had whiskey soda lounge, which was like on the corner. And so Andy was like, yeah, take over the space. Like he's like, I think he just like, he was like, I'm going to concentrate on one space. And that was in 2017 or maybe 2016 because we signed it at least in 2017. So and this kind of what you were saying before here, like, yeah, it's 15, 20 minutes from the time. Did you know much about the Columbia Street waterfront? No, not at all. But there was two things that made us kind of believers. And one, we were like, if we if we could have if everyone that's on the line at Pock Pock would would come in and have a drink, we'll at least like have a fighting chance. Right. And then I mean, Pock Pock ended up closing, I think like after COVID, like right after COVID. And that was a whole different thing. But yeah, I don't think we,

19:50I spent some time down there and I was like, I was like legitimately old school, like writing how many people passed by and it was bleak. And so we ended up. But I think like we everyone like has like this, I don't know, I'll say everyone, but I think we had this like more like, okay, we rather like you drew it, you like believe the build it and they'll will come. And I think we saw Andy do it. And like granted, Andy's like, you know, a crazy Michelin Sartre chef with, you know, that was on Anthony Bourdain and blah, blah, blah. But like I think like what we were trying to like bring to that that Columbia Street was going to be like really amazing and something that didn't exist in that neighborhood. So I think we were more like excited than like, oh my gosh, like people might not come. I mean, of course you like always like think about that. But I think the rent was like easy enough to like swallow where you were like, cool, if like people don't come, then like we're like we're working there, right? So like we're we'll just have to continue to

20:56get people to come. And I think there was other stuff in the like the neighborhood at large that like made us made us confident that people like like a little bit higher, like not like a neighborhood restaurant, but a little like elevated of sorts. And like, you know, because like in Carol Garons, you had, you know, Frankie's and primates and you had batters be at the time. So like there was like some like great stuff there, but like not on the Columbia, like we were a little like segregated over on the other side of the BQE, which we don't really know was going to be as tough as as it was. And especially, you know, we opened with no reservations. Yeah, yeah, because everyone's like, we're going to be Luke Colley or we're going to be like, you know, and like, if there's no reservations, people will come early and that wasn't the case. And so yeah, I think we had to just be creative and we had to continue to just think of ways and yeah, so you found the space. So we found the space. Then you go raise money?

22:00Yeah, so we found the space and then yeah, we had put out feelers with some friends and family. Chris had some people that, you know, he was networking with because at the time, I think he was at Marta. And I think there was like some people that like sat at the counter there that really like loved what he was doing. And you know, you always have these people that, you know, whether you're bartending or chef and it's like you, you always like meet people and they're always like, if you're going to, if you ever open up your own spot, you come find me. And half of the people are full of shit. But like, there are people that actually will, you know, support you and fund that. And so I think it was like through a bunch of connections like, like some of them, like the guy Adam Reese that I referred to, like he not only hooked me up with Keith who ended up hook him up with the space, but then he also had some people that wanted to invest in restaurants. And they would end up, so Chris and I did some like, you know, we cooked for some people at his house

23:03and had people over. And so it was just like a lot of like meeting people, cooking for people. I was like, I worked at like the spot Mechelbergs for a hot set. And like, and I was like bartending there just as like during the time where we were fundraising. And I remember I got investors to invest and solely off the fact that like they were like, this guy's like behind the bar and everyone else is drinking and he's not drinking. And like, and we know that he's like kind of like serious. And he's responsible, which like I don't know if anyone's ever described me as serious. But, you know, you know, and so I, but like for me, it's like, I don't drink when I'm working. It's like I work. And I, you know, I think the beer tastes better after the shift. And I think those people, that resonated with them. And they took a chance on us and yeah, ended up getting them. And then, and then it was like some family, some family and friends of people I went to college with,

24:03that apparently were, you know, on a better, yeah, we're more studious than I was and got good jobs. And we had a little bit more money to throw around. And yeah, so it was like a kind of like a combination of people that I knew, people like Chris knew, people that we kind of met together. Yeah. And we, you know, we open up Popeina on like a bare bones budget. Like to the point where like in retrospect, I think like had we raised a little bit more money, it wouldn't have took, it was like a little bit of a slow burn to get like thankfully like where the restaurant is now. But, but I do think it kind of built character, built relations. It was ultimately like a good way to do it. But had we raised more money, I think like we could have got that backyard, which was is obviously our, our money maker. And like if we got that, you know, at first we had four picnic tables back there. Maybe for the first like three years, right? Maybe if we would have put in pavers and put in 70 seats, like maybe it would have been a little bit of a, maybe it would have

25:07been a faster or more fast like, you know, road to feeling like the restaurant sustainable. Because, you know, for anyone that has been there, it's a, it's a 28 seats. It's a small and then outside, it's, you know, you could probably get 50, 60, 70 seats. You could do weddings in your backyard. Have you done weddings? Oh, we love weddings. As I said, you're backyards huge. Yeah. And we used to only close sometimes because of weddings because we wanted to be the neighborhood spot. And when that check comes in, you're like, I think we could close. And like next thing you know, it's like my, the person that books events Gretchen and she's like, she's like, just so you know, we are closed every Saturday in May or June. And I'm like, great. Like, great. Like people should come on a Tuesday. Yeah. So, so yeah, we love weddings and our space is good for like really good for

26:08it. Yeah, it's great. Our space, you know, has, you know, for me, it's like always one of those, like it's constantly evolving one because I think when we have money to do things and put money into it, we do and two. I think the restaurants is taking a little bit more of like my vision. You know, I mentioned a partner when we first opened. Chris and I ended up, you know, splitting. We had we ended up opening up another restaurant and all con camera covid too. I mean, we're jumping around a bunch, but like you guys, whether the storm of covid, yeah. And that was like turn, you know, when the SLA allowed us to do a market liquor, like our liquor shop store, you know, we, you know, I was like slinging wine. I was taking all the allocations because no one was taking them for restaurants. And I remember being like, you know, who wants to at least call in for very cheap and like would like, like I was like sending out emails and I was just like, you know, like, I mean, like listen, like it was a hard time. But like,

27:10we, we, we did really well during that time, one, because we had an outdoor space, but two, like I think I took off for like two days. Like I, I was like, people talk about quarantine and stuff. It's like, no, I was like, I was like getting wine. I was shipping wine. I was, I, I can't like, I don't know. I can't like sit still. Like I think I just was like also, I don't know, I've liked this like, like there's like a, a little bit of like a host's mentality that I think I get from like my, my mom's father who was like, he owned a butcher shop and he was like, oh, like I was like, he was like, he would collect cans like and like get a nickel for every, like every can and like, that's like a memory that I think about all the time. I'm like, this motherfucker is like collecting cans. I was like, we're not poor. Yeah. And like, but this guy's like collecting cans and then like, but he was like very generous. Like he would, you know, he just collect those cans and we'd go get like a 7-Eleven Slurpee or a candy bar. And so I think

28:12that's kind of like stuck with me. And like, so I was like, I can't like just sit here and wait for, you know, change or wait for the government to decide to like do the, you know, the PPP loan or whatever the hell it is. You know, it's like, I need to like get out and like and just make, make money, right? And so that's what we did. And so during that time, I think, you know, we also had very different ideas on like what we should do, but you know, like any partnership you're, you may compromise is. And then like one day we were just in a P&L meeting and we were just like, man, we would be better off if you took one restaurant and I took the other restaurant. And did you? Okay. So we'll back up a little bit here. So obviously, Papina opened. Yeah. Did you immediately do what you did with me where you tried to emailing people and trying to get them into the space? Yeah. I mean, you had no PR, right? For we worked with this lady, Alyssa, for like a little bit, but I think our bare bones budget kind of like, you know, I think like that ran

29:13out real quick. I think it was like, I think there was like a piece of need or a piecing grub street maybe. And then like then we were, and I mean, she did an amazing job and probably worked well below what she normally charges people. But so we love working with her. But I think, you know, went, well, one, we opened up in the summer, spurtly, you know, like late August, early September, people are back in the city, people are excited, you're new, you're hot. And then like all of a sudden, Columbia street in the winter, or when it gets cold, it's like, oh my god. Yeah. Basically, there's the street freezover. Not really. But it was scary. And like even today, like sometimes, I'm like, man, this is bleak down here. And now there's at least other restaurants and stuff. So, but yeah, so I don't know. I think it kind of goes back to like, again, like I'm even though it was her job. And I don't know what timeout we were working with her, not working with her. But

30:13it's like, you know, I follow all that. I was like, every day you were reading eater, you're reading what you guys are like, you were reading like all the media outlets because it's like, one, I'm just interested. I want to know where I'm going. But two, and it's like, hey, like I need to like connect with these people so they can know, like I was so pumped about what we were doing. It's like Chris was doing the food. I was doing the wine. Like, let's get people down here. Because like, for me, it was like more of like what we're doing was like, people just needed to get there. And once they got there, no matter where they were coming from, they would come back, right? But like, getting people there was like the hard part. And so, so yeah, I would, I was cold call. I would call email. I would, I was like, in some essence, I was like, you know, I know sometimes like people can't accept invites or whatever. I was like, fake email addresses. Like, I was doing whatever I needed to do to like, to like just drum up some like, hey, like people like, you know, so it was, I was like legit going to like the fairy like, uh, terminal, uh, in Brooklyn Bridge

31:20Park and writing like, Pobena, one, one twenty seven Columbia. I was like doing it. Like, I was like guerrilla marketing all over the place. Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to do. So I do want to get to the business partnership and the split. Because I think it's really interesting. And we haven't chatted about that with anyone yet. But before we get there, Pobena has become this incredible destination for wine. It's talked about by like everybody in New York City is like, as I mentioned, the spot that anyone who's in wine wants to go on their day off and drink. And what I think is so interesting about that is that like you, you did it so organically, it feels like to me, and I've had other wine professionals tell me, people who've not been on the show yet. But well, well, don't people. I don't know how to make my own restaurant destination for wine. Well, I don't know how you would do that. I think it seems very hard. They think that they've worked at amazing places. They've been beverage actor at amazing places. They go off to do their own thing and like, don't know why I didn't get known for wine. They have great collections, whatever. But you did it. How do you think that happened for you? And like, what do

32:24you think that you did that let people know this was a great place to come drink wine? It might just be that you priced well. But like, sir, what do you think you did? I think it's probably a combination of two things. I worked like legitimately every day for the first however many years. And you know, I, you know, I missed a lot of friends events, weddings, fuels. Like I, but like opening this business was the most important thing. And I didn't have a plan B, right? It's like, I just like went in and I needed to make this work. And I worked a lot. And I think working the floor and getting people excited about what I was excited about helped create that. And like, almost to the point where it's like, now I have like some people that are like, hey, are you that work? Yeah. Now they won't drink wine if you're not there. Yeah. I'm just like, I'm like, no, go. Like my, my team is amazing. And like honestly, I have like some people on, like on my team that like probably technically no more than I do. I just like, I'm able to like. And people like tell

33:27you talk about it. Yeah. Because like I'm also like, I don't know. Like wine is like you, like you should take wine serious, but like not serious, right? It's like, let's like, like, let's just like, and also I think the pricing thing that you like mentioned, it's like, of course. Yeah. Like I pray one my rent is not crazy. Yeah. And I think like I wish we had more landlords. Like my landlord that like allowed people to like do what they want and like really kind of create these unique New York destination or New York restaurants or it doesn't have to be a restaurant. Anything, a bookstore, this, but it's like everyone's always so concerned about like the market rent or yeah. And it's like, then cool. Like we walked by, you know, this, what's his name? The one of McNally's restaurants that's now a bank of America. And it's like, what is it? Someone was holding a concert or whatever. Yeah. Uh, uh, she'll just shake shock now. No fancy you, Danny, but like, come on, Matt, at this point, like it's a corporate company.

34:30Like, yeah, no, it's just, but like, so I just like, I think like, and I, I feel like because my rent is okay, um, you know, we, most of our, our expenses, like labor and food and beverage and, you know, but it's like, so I pass on that, um, to the guest, right? Because I want people to drink. I, like, I think it's like so cool that, you know, on the, um, that, you know, hidden gems. Hidden gems. It's like, there's like no better feeling than like when I have a friend that, like, hits me up and they're like, I heard about Popina today and like, or they're like, you know, hit, like send me the story on Instagram or whatever. And I'm like, that's like cool. And that's what I want. And like, I think like everyone's goals different, right? It's like, you can be very smart at your pricing and just be like, cool, I'm going to be the cheapest person to have this wine or these wines or whatever, or I can have this like really cool vertical or the, but it's like at the end of the day, it's like, I just like want people like, okay, like, what do I have? What do I have a lot of?

35:30What do I have not a lot? Like, my, my pricing is also like very dynamic and like, I think you have to like, know the market, know, um, know what people are willing to spend, know what people. And like, I don't know, like, I also don't like, if you, if you drink me out of my whole allocation, it's like, cool, guess what's going to come next year? Same allocation. I obviously like, you know, we could talk about a lot, about a lot of things like weather and how, you know, it's like, and but for me, it's like, I just want people to drink. And like, I always thought like the coolest thing was like somebody, like, there's people that that have come to my restaurant that have had dovesat for the first time or a rulo or, you know, named this like producer and like, drinking in the city is becoming so expensive. And like, how do you, you know, we used to save up and like, work a, work a double or triple just to be able to go and sneak out and drink like a really cool line at Terwar or like, or, you know, one of many restaurants, like I said, like the modern, like, we

36:32would, we would save up to do these things. But like, it still felt like it was in like, the realm of possible. But it's reachable. Now it's like, you can't, you drink like, village level burgundy and like, you know, at a restaurant and you're just like, wow. So I think like, for me, it's like, I love the fact that like, people could come and they, you know, they're excited and it reminds me of like me being excited about like, trying lines, trying new restaurants. It's like, I don't know, like, even like talking to my staff at like lineup, I'm like, guys, where'd you go this week? Where should I go? Like, where, like, what are you excited about? Like, how was the service? How was this, you know? I don't know. I think, I think New York would be a better place if, if people considered more of that kind of stuff. I agree with you totally. Okay, so coming out of COVID, you open gusses. Yeah. So I think that was 22 maybe. Yeah, it was like in COVID, I remember, but it was like, sort of not COVID yet. And this way you built such a huge following from

37:36Papina to like, I remember compared to Papina, like, there was like the huge spread in New York magazine. Like, but why, why did you decide to open a second place? Um, well, so Chris, Chris wanted to open up something like legitimately, like a year two, right? And like the joke was is I, I, I like held Chris off for like five years without wanting to open. I honestly had no, um, I didn't really have any desire to open up a new spot. I thought like, there was so much more that I want to do a Papina. Um, and, but maybe that was also partly because like, I felt like our compromises weren't always, um, things that moved the restaurant forward. Um, and so I was like, okay, like, let's do this. Like we, you know, I think also like part of me is like, okay, like he, I think it was like beneficial for him to like, have another creative outlet. Um, and so we ended up, uh, looking for

38:36spaces and one of kind of one part of the like agreement was like, I found a space down in financial district. And so we were kind of like, okay, I'm going to have get what I want, which is financial district. He's going to get what he wants, which is another project. And so like, this is great. And then we're, we actually like worked on this deal. Actually, you know, we're old mates pub is. So we're, we're looking at that space, which is like massive. And it's like a blessing in disguise that like didn't happen. But like, we're looking at that space. And like, there was like one thing with the guarantor, um, that like made the deal blow up in like the last minute. Like legitimately, we're like ready to sign. It was just like, I specifically me, I had to like, agreed to like the guarantor clause that like, just I wasn't comfortable with. And it was, I thought it was like very aggressive. And it was very specific to like me, not like my other business or just me, you know. And so, um, and so we, we ended up like that deal like fell through.

39:41And then I think we were just kind of like, oh man, that sucks. And we, I think we took a little time to just like be like, okay, like, let, what's next. And then at that time, there was a space lost to go on, um, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right? Yeah, I remember it though. It's on like Union Street, you know, in the, in the old Gusus, or what became Gusus space. Um, so it was two 15 Union right by Missola and stuff. Um, and we found this and like, we always like saw people at this restaurant, but it was like one of those restaurants that like, for whatever reason, I have like never like went into, um, I don't know why, but they always like seem to like be like bustling, especially on like sunny days on the patio or on that, you know, um, their balcony or whatever the porch. Um, and so we ended up, uh, going in and meeting, uh, meeting the owner and he I think he was just like beat up and looking to move up stayed. And then he's done. And like Chris was like, this is, this would be amazing space. And like, of course, then we start like talking about

40:45what kind of concept and all that. Um, so then we ended up, you know, talking about the concept, which is steakhouse, um, Frank, uh, one of the Frank's was like, yeah, man, like prime, me prime, me's didn't work. So like, why do you think a steakhouse is gonna work? And I'm like, yeah, true that Frank. Uh, but it, you know, we, so we had this idea that it would be a chophouse. And again, it's like, I think in partnership, you like, there's like a lot of things that, you know, I probably would have done different, but, um, but also like, I think I was also, although very much involved, I was like, PoPina was always like my like kind of like, safe space. Like I was like, felt like I always like loved it. It was like, you know, it was like, I always gravitated back to like, how are we making this better? Um, while I think Chris like really concentrated on, you know, what Gus was and, and became and so what we ended up having a P&L meeting and I think naturally,

41:47like when you have two restaurants, especially in the same neighborhood, you know, if you have one that's, I think the day like, sometimes they like lean on each other and I don't always think that like, you know, you say all different investors, different this and, you know, but I think at the end of the day, it's like, even if it's your time and your energy, it's like one is always gonna like be taking more, right? And so, um, we would always like look at, you know, the P&L go through each restaurant and he like legitimately looked at me one day and he's like, do you think the restaurants would be better off if we just each took one? And like, I was like, absolutely. And, I just like think that like sometimes our, our compromises, uh, weren't, they didn't benefit the guests or they didn't benefit us. Yeah. It's like kind of like the example of like, if you want the room to be orange and, you know, your wife wants a room to be red and you end up doing the room, you know, uh, green, you know? And so it's like, you neither one of you wanted the room to be that color

42:53and like it felt like a compromise, um, but neither one of you are happy with it. And so, I think there was like some of that. And um, but like it was all like, it was all good. Like we were just like, I think we were just business owners that were just trying to figure out how to make it work, right? Yeah. Um, because like there was also, you know, from the time we opened up PoPina, you know, our lives have changed, you know, at this time he wrote a book, he had a kid, like there was like things that were that like started to be more important to him. There was things that started becoming more important to me. And like, so I think like, you know, your, your, your lives change and it's all good. Like we, like, still talk today. Um, and yeah. So I think the idea was during this P&L meeting, he was like, Hey, what? Like, why? And, and then it became, how do we do this? Right? So if like, if I take PoPina, he takes gusses, does he become like a part, is he still a partner, but I run it? And then we realized that like because we didn't always agree with

43:56the, like how the person like ran things that like that would be very hard to be a silent partner in somebody else's business. Yeah. So then we just decided to like make a clean split and, you know, we, we kind of, um, you know, um, told our investors that we were thinking about it and everyone, like, was obviously like a little devastated because like, I feel like they, they were like, Oh man, like, that's not good. Because I think like, you know, we, we complimented each other in a lot of different ways. Yeah. And we have like very different perspectives on things. And I think that could like be really good. Um, but at the end of the day, I think it was like the right decision. And so he took gusses. I took PoPina. I think 2024 was like the, like was when I started, I started fresh. He started fresh. And yeah. So, so PoPina, so I've owned PoPina since then, just me. And like I said, it's, it's been really nice. I haven't really been able to like,

44:56there's like things that I do right. There's things that I do wrong, but they're my decisions. So like, I can't ever like blame them on like somebody else because it's like, cool. Like, I don't know. Do I buy a TV for the next game? Do I, do I have a Wimbledon watch party? Do I, do I do any of this stuff that I think might matter? Um, but then it's like, if it's a bust, then it's like, it was me. And so I've made some bad calls. I made some good calls. And, but the restaurant finally feels like my own. And I think that's like the most important thing and makes it hopefully the most successful version of itself. So, I was, PoPina has continued to be this thriving business, Uncle Andrea Waterfront. You had the expansion into gusses. You trail back. If you ever thought you wanted to do something else. Yeah. I mean, funny enough is, uh, I didn't think, like, again, I, I, I, I like look at it as like, I still think there's so much like untapped potential at PoPina. It's like, you know, it's like, whether it's like opening for lunch or

46:00or we're not open for lunch. We're open for lunch on like Saturday Sundays in the summer, but it's like, what about the winter? And again, like, it's all like, is there business areas? There's not business areas. It's like, we, we, we opened up like that side space and like, that has been huge during winter season. It's like, how do we grow our business in the winter? I mean, they, you know, winter, like I said, winter down there is still like very challenging for us. And so it's like, how do I grow that? How do I, how do I continue to go to the brand? We started, you know, I was doing trips to Italy. I saw that in mine trips. It's like, so like, we are doing that. So there, like, there was a ways that I feel like the brand of PoPina and like could grow without me having to open up another restaurant. And then, you know, I did open up a wine shop down the street. The wine seller by PoPina. We kind of did that as like a reaction to the success of selling wine during COVID. And I just think it's like a natural

47:01progression. The brand people know you for the wine. Yeah. I trust your palette. Yeah. And it's and again, it's like, you share staff? No, no, we, no, it's just, it's like, it's a smaller operation. You know, I try to get sometimes if I like need coverage or some, some of my from PoPina will come over. But it is like funny because like, it is like, you know, it's just like a different game. You're like, I hope you know, you could be like, sell a hundred, fifty, three hundred dollar bottle of wine by just being like, excited about it and being like, this is good. Whereas like, at the shop, somebody will be like, hey, can you describe these three bottles that are all like 15, 20 bucks? And like, you're just like, wow, that was like a half hour process. And like, again, we're happy to do it. And I think it's amazing. But it's like, you just, it's just like, it's a different type of. Yeah. What someone's buying wine for at that moment and things like that they got totally then like, they're already out there already ready to spend money. They're already at dinner. You don't like it to see them enjoy the wine. Yeah. So it's just a different,

48:02it's a different vibe, you know. But yeah, it's been, it's been nice and it's, it's like a less of a lift than like opening up another restaurant. And then yeah, I figured we'd probably talk about this when you asked your questions at the end. But we will talk about that. That's fine. That's fine. So. And then did you also take like a, you have an event space too, right? So the event space was, it was the wine. Now, okay. So, but now you have the side. I mean, how much has events become important to the business and how much of you factored that in as you plan for the future? Because I feel like talked to other restaurant tours as well who've said either they didn't realize how important it would be or they, you know, were adamant. They weren't going to do a private dining or whatever. And then everyone who seems to unlock it's like, yeah, I should have done it sooner, basically. So yeah, I think that's kind of like, it kind of goes back to like a lot of some of the conversations Chris and I have had over the years. It's like we would like not like we'd only be like one buy out a month and because we want to be a restaurant and we're not an event space and

49:03we then, you know, we'd be like, we only do weddings for 750 people and then like maybe 70. And like, now I'm like, cool. Like how much like so I think like yeah. And like, so for me, it's like, I think that's like one of the things that's changed is I actually came from. So when I worked, I worked at the spot in New Jersey a little after college where I met the chef who I started dating. And that restaurant actually showed me the the it's called Stonehouse and the catering and the event space. Like it was the money maker. The restaurant was like beautiful and it was like what they wanted to do and like it was like high end. But like the only reason that restaurant exists is because the catering space was making so much money. So in my mind, I always like knew the power of catering and events and all that. I just didn't like I didn't like push Chris on it because like I I love the idea of like like it's just like you want it to be like the cool restaurant

50:06that the menu is changing all the time. And it's just like a different like the idea of like him doing pasta or just doing pasta for a hundred people family style in a kitchen that's maybe smaller than this room or in right now. And it's like you're going to have compromise, you know, in the the quote like cooking for a hundred is different than cooking for a two-time right. So it's like, you know, but I think as long as you could dial it in in a place that you're still very proud of the food that you're putting out, I think it's I think for me it's like a no-brainer. Cool. It has been amazing having this conversation with you. I really appreciate you coming in. As I told you, I'm a huge fan of puppyness. So it's always a treat. We are going to end now with the three questions. But before we do, when you reflect back on sort of everything, what are you the most proud of when it comes to the restaurants at Stanford? I think it's, you know, being a spot in

51:07the community that like people like really like resonate with and feel comfortable at and like knowing that we are making the community better whether, you know, whether it's, you know, donating to the local schools or running or doing something with the Red Hook initiative or, you know, or just being that graduation spot, that birthday spot and like seeing people's kids get older and seeing people's relationships build and that and then I also had like a very, I'll be completely honest and this is one of the things that I think Chris was really good at. It's like when we open, I think like you think of yourself as like a businessman, right? And like you're like, man, I want the like, I want to hire the the the porter or the cooks for the least amount of money that I possibly can because that will that's a good business move, right? And then I think during COVID and with a little kind of, you know, that back and forth with Chris is he's like, well, why not? Like we need to pay

52:09people to like live in the city and like that, like that made a very that made a very lasting impact on like how I feel like, you know, like we can't like I came from Danny Meyer like he, you know, he was like very much like take care of your people and and they'll take care of your guest, right? And I think that mentality is like when you're actually writing the checks is not always like the easiest thing, but then, but then it did, I think during COVID it finally like clicked for me that I needed to like cool like like that dishwasher or that porter might not ask for that raise or do that or or your line cooks, you might be able to get a line cook for 22, but why not pay them 27 or whatever it is. And it's like, so I think I'm really proud right now that like we have a good team. We don't have like a lot of turnover. We have people that I feel like feel like we got their backs, you know, like one of my cooks, you know, had had to like leave because of some health

53:09issues. And we say, hey, like what can we do? How can we help? And I think like it's become like kind of like a family, right? And it's like, it's obviously different, but it's I think people, like if people think or know that I have their back, like that's something I think it should be very, I'm very proud of. I love it. All right, three questions as we always end. I'm going to give you a two part of the first one though, because I mean, come on, I've got you. So I got asked to do it. I'm sure you kind of can already guess, but one is you gotta give me a dish. Okay. But then I need a wine, James. Sure. So for the dish, I mean, it's embarrassing, but I probably still eat the hot chicken. It's the lead to like every two weeks. Well, I will tell you that I stole the side salad. I make it all the time in our dinner parties. This idea of like the radicchio, etc. with ranch, like blew my mind. And I'm just like, I make it for dinner parties when I'll do, you know, other stuff. And you're like, what? I'm like, that's it's from a peanut. But yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. Now, I mean,

54:14it's a dish that is like super kind of has become like iconic for us, you know, and, you know, yeah, we're super super proud of that. And it's just it's it's delicious. And yeah, I mean, I grew up being chicken cutlets. So it's like, come on. Yeah. All right, wine. Wine. I think I think I think one of like the the bottles that that really resonate with me is is charisoulo. Of course, like, you know, I could say like, oh, this fancy bottle of, you know, DRC or leisure belaire or whatever, like, but it's like, honestly, like going to a Brutzo and discovering charisoulo and the like the like, it's like a bill it's versatility. So like Christiana, Tobirio is like one of, you know, has become a friend and like she makes this charisoulo that it's like, it's like kind of like perfect for especially like you're drinking outside in the

55:20on the patio. You have the chicken, you have, you know, popper d'elle, it's just it's a wine that always kind of I come back to a lot. And so I think it's a good representation of what people are drinking at popina and like what we're excited about. Cool. You can open a restaurant or bar anywhere where? Well, New York, you know, so yeah. So actually in the last couple months or in the last like month, I should say, I signed a lease for a space in Williamsburg. So if you're so you know, might hit you up for a little investment. No, so yeah, I'm working with the Naftali group on a project down in the Williamsburg, down in South Williamsburg, in the Williamsburg Warf. And it's a they have this like beautiful, beautiful luxury building down there. And you know, it's a little far off the impact, you know, and I think that's kind of

56:23why they the people at FOC actually were the ones who made the introduction because they were like, hey, you know, James has created this spot in in Columbia Waterfront, which has all was also like a little knick of the waterfront that not a lot of people knew about or you know, and so I think like same kind of like the same challenge where it's like, okay, there's water, there's water, there's you know, the big acidic juke community to the right, there's no transportation. So I think like we have like a lot of things that most people are like very scared of and of course I'm scared of that as well, but I think the people at Naftali like recognize the challenge and they have you know, tapped me to come build a bar. So it's it's going to be it's going to be a bar, there's going to be a small food program, but I'm really excited because I think like for me, it's like New York is the best place in the world, but also there's so many like little like

57:27places that are in need of community and I'm really excited to like bring, you know, a good bar of that fosters community. So it's like, you know, you go in and it's like, you know, it's going to be a bar that you like sit at and like talk to people and you know, it's not going to be this like Instagrammy laboratory bar and like again, no, no hate on that, but it's like I want to like just open up a bar where people like feel good and could come and make a new friend or you know, and also like cool like do the wine dinners do do the pricing that we do at Popeina and like just get people in and get people drinking good wine and so yeah, so or having a really great Negroni, you know, it's it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be precious, you know, it's and so there's not a lot of stuff in that neighborhood, so it is like it is like very like scary because like we've like Popeina was like a little bit of a slow burn to get people in,

58:27but hopefully we you know have made a little bit of a reputation where it's like if you do calm that we will you'll feel good about it and return, you know. So I love it. Finally one piece of advice. Some of the ones to open something. I think you know, just ask yourself why you're doing it and also ask yourself, are you willing to give up like what are you willing to give up to be able to do it? It's like I think a lot of times people like think about the all like the shiny bright things of opening up. Yeah sure, I drank really good wine and I go on wine trips to Italy and all that, but it's like guess what? I'm also like cleaning the grease trap and like doing a lot of shitty things that getting calls in the middle of the night or not being you know like there's a lot of like things that you sacrifice to own your own business and I think some people like you should just be very honest with yourself that if you want to do that or not and like what like why do you do it? Do you do it because like you want to take care of like it like you want to

59:32to be a leader of your team and like or you want to like have a spot in the community and I think if like whether it's financial or not motivated, I think just being honest with what are you willing to give up in your life to be able to do that? And that has always been a question that I've you know that I've always asked people that have come to me and said hey like I want to do this. I'm like how bad do you really want to do it? You know so I mean there's unfortunately there's there's friendships, there's relationships, there's a lot of things that I've given up to do what I do and and I would do it again but there's a lot of people that maybe not. Yeah, I love it James thank you so much it's been awesome. Of course thank you. Really appreciate you coming on. Really fun thank you. Thanks so much for listening to Vine Pairs the Build Out. The show is produced, filmed, recorded, and edited by Darby Cicci. Editorial direction from Vine Pairs Editor and Chief,

1:00:36Janisherina, designed the logo by Marcello Bevalacua and thanks to the entire Vine Pairs team, especially my co-founder Joshua Malin. I've been your host Adam Teeter, until next time. Thanks for listening.