businessSep 11, 202624:57

Phoebe: The Gospel Patron Behind Paul with John Rinehart

About this episode

Women have played a vital role in advancing the gospel from the very beginning.

In Romans 16, the Apostle Paul introduces us to Phoebe—a trusted partner whose generosity, influence, and service helped further his ministry. Her story offers a compelling picture of what it means to use the resources God has entrusted to us to advance the gospel.

John Rinehart, founder and CEO of Gospel Patrons, has spent years studying and telling the stories of men and women who have supported gospel ministry throughout history. He says Phoebe is one of the clearest biblical examples of what he calls a gospel patron.

What Is a Gospel Patron?

A gospel patron is someone who comes alongside those proclaiming the gospel and supports their work through relationships, influence, financial resources, and other practical means.

These partnerships have existed since the earliest days of Christianity.

Luke 8 tells us that Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna, and other women supported Jesus and His disciples “out of their means.” They were using what God had given them to help make ministry possible.

Throughout church history, the names of gospel patrons have often appeared in the background. They may not have been the ones preaching sermons, translating Bibles, planting churches, or leading missionary movements, but their generosity helped make those ministries possible.

As Rinehart explains, behind many gospel proclaimers throughout history have been faithful men and women helping fuel the work.

Phoebe was one of them.

The Remarkable Trust Paul Placed in Phoebe

Romans is one of the most significant theological writings in the New Testament. Yet when Paul reaches the final chapter, the first person he mentions is Phoebe. Paul writes:

“I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself.” —Romans 16:1–2

Phoebe was apparently someone Paul trusted deeply. She is widely understood to have carried Paul’s letter to the believers in Rome—a significant responsibility involving a long and difficult journey.

Paul also describes her as his own patron.

We do not know exactly what Phoebe's financial support provided. She may have helped cover Paul's travel, living expenses, ministry costs, or even expenses associated with producing and distributing letters. Scripture does not tell us.

What it does tell us is significant enough: Phoebe was an important partner in Paul's ministry, and her resources were being used in service to the gospel.

Her example reminds us that faith and finances were never intended to occupy separate parts of our lives.

Wealth Is an Opportunity to Do Good

Christians can sometimes struggle with how to think about money. We may begin to view wealth as something inherently worldly while treating faith as something private and spiritual.

Scripture gives us a much more integrated picture.

What we do with the resources God entrusts to us can itself become an act of worship. Money can be used to care for people in need, support missionaries, serve widows and orphans, strengthen ministries, and help spread the gospel.

The important question is not merely, “How much wealth do I have?” It is, “How can I faithfully use what God has entrusted to me?”

Phoebe understood that her resources carried Kingdom possibilities.

That lesson may be particularly significant in the years ahead as enormous amounts of wealth change hands and women become increasingly influential stewards of financial resources. Phoebe offers a biblical picture of what can happen when financial influence is placed at God's disposal.

Three Characteristics of a Gospel Patron

Rinehart identifies three qualities that can help us recognize faithful gospel patronage: vision, generosity, and humility.

1. Vision

Gospel patrons develop eyes to recognize where God is working.

They can see potential before the results are obvious. They recognize that something seemingly small today—a missionary, ministry, church plant, Bible translation, or act of service—may bear fruit far beyond what they will ever personally witness.

That requires faith.

God often begins His work through what appears small, like the mustard seed Jesus described. Gospel patrons have the vision to see what God might do and the willingness to participate.

2. Generosity

Vision eventually leads to action.

Gospel patrons do more than admire good ministry. They joyfully put their resources behind it.

That generosity may sometimes involve sacrifice. Instead of viewing giving merely as another financial obligation, gospel patrons see it as an opportunity to participate personally in God's work.

Their resources become tools that can help others proclaim the gospel, serve people in need, and bless communities.

3. Humility

Gospel patrons are also willing to serve without being at the center of attention. They do not need the microphone.

Their name may never appear on a platform or become widely known. Their joy comes from knowing that the work is being accomplished.

Phoebe's name appears only briefly in Scripture, yet imagine the impact connected to the letter she carried. Christians have been studying Romans for nearly two thousand years.

Sometimes extraordinary Kingdom impact happens through people willing to serve faithfully behind the scenes.

How Do You Choose What to Support?

Generosity should not mean giving impulsively to every opportunity that appears. Wisdom and discernment matter.

Rinehart encourages believers to begin with prayer, asking God to help them see where they may have a role in His work.

Then comes thoughtful evaluation.

Before supporting a person or ministry, consider its theological convictions, character, competence, and clarity of mission. Talk with people who know the organization. Seek wise counsel. Ask whether the ministry has demonstrated faithful stewardship and whether its work aligns with biblical priorities.

Generosity and due diligence do not compete with one another. Responsible stewardship includes both.

You Don't Have to Wait Until You're Wealthy

Perhaps the idea of becoming a gospel patron sounds exciting, but you are still early in your career or don't have substantial financial resources.

You do not have to wait.

Jesus teaches in Luke 16 that faithfulness begins with what we have now. One of the dangers of generosity is always moving it into the future:

I'll give when I earn more.
I'll become generous when the debt is gone.
I'll support ministry once I've reached a certain financial milestone.

But habits established with a little often remain when we eventually have much. Start where you are.

That might mean supporting a missionary with a modest recurring gift. It could mean giving toward a ministry you believe in, opening your home, sharing your professional expertise, introducing people who could accomplish more together, or intentionally creating financial margin so generosity can grow over time.

Small acts of faithfulness have a way of preparing us for larger ones.

Lifestyle matters here, too. Rising income can easily be consumed by rising expenses. If every increase in income automatically raises your lifestyle, generosity will always feel difficult.

Choosing to live below your means can create margin not simply for financial security, but for giving.

What Has God Put in Your Hands?

Phoebe's story raises a question worth considering: What resources has God entrusted to you that could help advance the gospel?

Perhaps it is wealth. Perhaps it is your business experience, professional expertise, relationships, home, influence, or ability to connect the right people.

You may be called to proclaim the gospel publicly. Or you may be someone whose faithful support allows another person to devote more of his or her life to doing so.

Both roles matter. Phoebe did not write Romans. Paul did.

But Phoebe faithfully used what God had entrusted to her, and she became an important partner in Paul's ministry. Nearly two thousand years later, we are still saying her name.

Her story reminds us that we do not need to be the person standing in the spotlight to have an extraordinary gospel impact. We simply need to ask God to show us what He has placed in our hands—and then faithfully use it for His glory.

On Today’s Program, Rob Answers Listener Questions:

I’m over 70, still working, and collecting Social Security. I’m considering withdrawing about $175,000 from my 401(k) to buy a rental property that could generate around $1,600 a month, leaving about $125,000 in the account. Would that be a wise move?
My 91-year-old father has pension income and long-term care insurance, but we still face a $3,500 to $4,000 monthly shortfall, and he’s down to about $25,000 in savings. A reverse mortgage could help him stay in his home for another couple of years. Would that be a good option, and what type should we consider?

Resources Mentioned:

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Faith & Finance — Phoebe: The Gospel Patron Behind Paul with John Rinehart. Machine-transcribed; use the interactive transcript above to jump the player to any line.

What matters most to you when selecting a financial advisor? Someone who shares your biblical values? How about someone who will take the time to explain your financial options clearly? Certified Kingdom Advisors meet high standards of competence, integrity, and biblical training, equipping them to offer financial advice grounded in God's word. No more wondering if your advisor truly understands what's important to you? Find a Certified Kingdom Advisor near you at findack.com That's findack.com The Women have played a vital role in advancing the gospel from the very beginning. I am Rob West. In Romans 16 Paul introduces us to Phoebe, a trusted partner in gospel patron whose generosity, influence, and service help further his ministry. Today John Reinhard joins us to explore Phoebe's example and what it can teach us about using our work, relationships, and resources for gospel impact.

And then we'll take your phone calls at 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith in Finance, biblical wisdom for your financial decisions. Well what a treat today to have my friend John Reinhard back on the program. John is the founder and CEO of gospel patrons, a nonprofit ministry that inspires business and professional leaders to use their unique gifts and resources for God's Kingdom. John great to have you here. Thanks so much Rob, great to be with you. John you recently wrote about Phoebe for our special edition of Faithful Steward focused on women stewarding wealth and we'll get to her story in a moment. But first I want you to unpack the term gospel patron and what God has been doing in and through you and your wife Renee and this incredible ministry now for many years. Yeah thank you so much. Gospel patron was a term foreign to me initially.

I heard about it through a businessman in Sydney, Australia. And for me it was helpful to understand that throughout history God has used business and professional leaders behind the scenes to fuel and spread the momentum of his kingdom. And so gospel patron is someone who's going to be generous, oftentimes gifted in generosity, gifted in business and they're standing alongside those leaders who proclaim the gospel. They're involved relationally, they're involved financially but they're there as a partner in support in the work. And what we see in Luke chapter 8 was that Jesus himself had gospel patrons. His ministry was funded by three women named Mary Joanna and Susanna who provided for him out of their means. Yeah and that's a detail we can often miss in God's word but John I know you have been so faithful to tell the stories of the gospel patrons throughout the decades. And really for every gospel proclaimer on the front lines, there are gospel patrons behind them right? That's right all throughout history. They are sort of these footnotes and yet we see their names in scripture but they're

often the names that we read right over and yet it wouldn't have happened. The great things that God does throughout history have always been supported by gospel patrons. Incredible folks, pick up the book by this title, gospel patrons written by John Reinhardt. It is a must read and then go to gospelpatrons.org to learn about this ministry. You will be blessed by it. All right. In Romans 16, 1 and 2 Paul introduces us to Phoebe. John, what do those verses tell us about who she was and the role that she played? Romans 16 is the final chapter of Paul's most significant letter. It has been this theological masterpiece for the church and Rome that he'd longed to get to. And when we get to the final chapter, he lists 27 different names of people to greet and say hello to in Rome. But the first one is this woman named Phoebe. Phoebe is most likely hand carrying the first copy of Romans to the church and Rome that Paul longed to see himself and he trusts her to carry it.

She's the one where Paul says, greet her and treat her in a manner worthy of the saints because she's been a patron of many. And then he says of myself as well. Let's unpack that a bit more. I love this. What does it say to us that Paul entrusts a letter as important as Romans to Phoebe and not one of the other apostles? Yeah. Paul trusted her. As she must have, I mean, obviously there's a backstory here that we don't get all the details for. He's entrusting this really significant task to her probably because she had wealth. And therefore she may have had security detail. The travel with her, the 800 miles to Rome. It seems that he's had a lot of experience with her in the past. I imagine that throughout Paul's ministry, there were times that he made tents and helped to provide for his own ministry. And then at other times, it seems that people like Phoebe and sometimes Priscilla and Aquila come alongside the apostle Paul and say, you know, your tents are okay. Well, we really get at his writing books of the New Testament, which are really good at his

preaching sermons and planting churches. And so we want to free you up to do that. Our generosity will be the fuel and the tank for you to do what God's ultimately made and called you to do. And so Paul trusts her at a really deep level. Incredible. Folks, we're talking about Phoebe and the role she played in Paul's ministry. But here's the big idea. We want you to think and pray about your role in furthering the gospel. Perhaps you're a gospel patron yourself. We're going to continue to unpack all of this just around the corner. John Reinhardt here today. He's the CEO of gospel patrons. And you can learn more at gospelpatrons.org. That's gospelpatrons.org. Back with more after this. Are you a financial professional looking to grow your practice while offering advice that aligns with your Christian values? By becoming a certified Kingdom advisor, you'll gain the biblical wisdom and professional credibility to serve clients who are seeking faith-based financial guidance.

Each year, more than 75,000 people search for a certified Kingdom advisor. Join our community and share your expertise with clients looking for someone who shares their faith and values. Start your journey today by going to KingdomAdvisors.com slash get certified. We are grateful for support from Movement Mortgage, who provides residential home loans and reverse mortgage options in all 50 states. Guided by a mission to love and value people, Movement seeks to help individuals and families make informed financial decisions from buying a home to planning for retirement. More information is available at faithfire.com slash movement. Movement Mortgage LLC supports equal housing opportunity. NMLS number 39179 for licensing information. Visit nmlsconsumeraccess.org. Women have played a vital role in advancing the gospel from the very beginning. We're so glad to have you with us today. I'm Rob West. With me, my friend John Reinhardt. He's founder and CEO of gospel patrons.

You can learn more at gospelpatrons.org. We're talking about Phoebe, a trusted partner and gospel patron whose generosity and influence and service helped further Paul's ministry. We see this in Romans 16. John, I'd love to talk about what Phoebe's financial support might have actually provided for practically. Yeah. I mean, throughout history, even writing letters of the New Testament would have been very, very costly. You would hire a scribe most of the time. There would be multiple copies that were made, the cost of the papyrus and the ink. The time that it would have taken to review their work, a copy that the apostle Paul would have kept for himself, multiple copies, then that would have been distributed. It's very, very unlikely that the apostle Paul was able to fund all of the cost of all 13 of its letters and more that he would have written. And so it could be that Phoebe provided for that as well as other patrons. It could be that she was helping to fund some of his travel. It could have been that she was just some of the cost

of living and doing ministry on the road. It could have been living expenses. But the Bible doesn't specify exactly, but there is something really significant here where Paul is listing her first among all the people degreeed in Rome and calling her his very own patron. That's the only time that that word gets used throughout the New Testament. And Paul here is applying it to Phoebe. So it's incredible. We can speculate and we know that there's something really deep here. Yeah, we sure do. Now let's turn the corner and talk about how this applies to everyone listening today. What can we as Christ followers, some professionals listening today and many women who we know based on the great wealth transfer are going to be the primary beneficiary stewards of this 124 trillion dollars that's changing hands. John, what can we learn from Phoebe's example? Yeah, I think a lot of times we think that faith and finance don't really intersect or God and money are two circles that never overlap. And what we seek consistently throughout the New

Testament is that what we do with the wealth that God's entrusted to us is itself an act of worship. And we can use the wealth that God's entrusted to us to bless the world to advance the gospel to support missionaries to serve the suffering, to help the poor, to visit the widows and the orphans. And I think we couldn't see that our wealth is an incredible opportunity to do good. Sometimes those of us who didn't grow up with these conversations tend to think, well, I don't know, is money and wealth just something bad and dirty that's for business. But then when I come to my faith, it's sort of this private personal experience. And the reality is that for 2,000 years, God's people and especially women, Phoebe here and then Mary Joanna and Susanna mentioned Luke chapter 8 were seeing the connection between using their wealth to glorify God's store-up treasure in heaven and advance the gospel. Hmm. Well, folks, our special edition of Faithful Stewart that is out this month, we are so excited about. It's all about women and wealth. And John has written this incredible article

highlighting Phoebe, this gospel patron that we see in the book of Romans. John, you elevate in this article three traits of effective gospel patrons that are absolutely present in Phoebe's lives. You're those with us. Yeah, the first one is vision. And we know that proverb says without vision, people perish. Vision goes first. Vision is seeing the way they kingdom of God is advancing even when it's invisible. It's seeing the mustard seed going to become the big tree. And and gospel patrons see and believe where God's at work. And they they see, okay, there's going to be a cost of this, but it's going to be worth it. There's full of faith. Generosity, that is, they step in and give joyfully and often sacrificially to support it. This isn't a little tip. This isn't just a tax or even a tie. This is, I can't wait to be involved in God's coming kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. And I want to participate in that now. And the third would be humility that gospel patrons aren't often trying to be in in the spotlight or hold a microphone or be recognized, but they're happy to come alongside and combine their wealth with the wealth of someone who's a

gospel proclamer and say together when our wealth's merge, they actually will do so much more to bless the world. That is so true. Now for somebody listening today who's discerning whether God is inviting them to become a gospel patron maybe for an individual or maybe for an organization, how might they discern that? Yeah, I'm glad that you use the word discernment. It's so important to not rush in, but to say, Father, help me to see my part in your work that Ephesians 2, 10 says that God's already written the good works he has for our lives. It's not our job to make him up. It's our job to discover them through our relationship with God. So that's where we always start. We always start with prayer and ask God, what would my involvement be here? Our job is not to try to make great things out of our lives. It's try to obey the good things that God's already planned for us and join where he's at work. Second, I think we want to know, you know, is the person, the ministry, the organization that God might be inviting us to support? Have they been tested in some

way? Do we share the same theological convictions? Do they have competence to do the work that they're aiming to do? And do they have conviction? Competence, conviction and clarity. Are they really getting the ball, moving the ball down the field? And would they be a good person or organization for me to come alongside? So he can seek wise counsel from mentors, others who have been on the board, people who've trusted them, others who've given to them. You want to ask around a little bit and do a little bit of due diligence to say, yeah, is the money that I give here going to really go to furthering the mission? Incredible. John, I'm confident that there's somebody who's listening today who's early in their career who may not feel like they have significant resources yet yet. They're hearing you describe a gospel patron and they're saying, I absolutely want to be one of those. What are some practical ways to begin living as a gospel patron even today? I love young professionals. I love young business students. My wife and I both study business in college and started our careers in business. And so I love the idea of catching the vision of

being a gospel patron now, not later. And what Jesus says in Luke 16 is that we're called to be faithful with whatever we have now. A lot of times we delay thinking about generosity until I reach some certain status point in my career or financial metric that I'm trying to get to. But Jesus says you'll be faithful with little. You'll be faithful with much. So it's really, really important to start today and start where you're at today with a bit of generosity and steps of faith. What we know to be true is that if we never take a step of faith, where you'll be in 10 years is exactly where you are right now. But every step of faith you take will lead to another step of faith and another step of faith and another step of faith. So that 10 years down the line, even the smallest step of faith will lead you to a destination you could not even have imagined arriving at. That's how God's kingdom works. Planting little seas, starting small, and learning to also not let your lifestyle get out of control. I was just talking to some friends last night and in their community, people who are highly, highly, highly successful feel really

cramped financially. So when you have a generosity conversation, they go, I can't afford to give because they've already over committed their lifestyle to things that they probably don't need. And so allowing yourself to live under budget and live somewhat simply and create lots of margin to give even early on, I think can be a game changer for you. Wow, incredible. John, I'm so thankful for your time today. I really appreciate you writing this article for Faithful Steward as well. It is incredible to see the men and women throughout history going all the way back to God's word and the women who supported Jesus that stepped into this role as gospel patrons and what God did as a result of their faithfulness. Thanks for your time, my friend. You're welcome. Such a joy to be with you. Folks, your next step, check out gospelpatrons.org for articles and videos and a free study guide on Phoebe and other patrons. Also, pick up the book Gospel Patrons by John Reinhardt from William Tendale to George Whitfield. All the stories are there. We'll be back with your questions after

this break. So call right now 800-525-7000 or if you'd prefer to email your questions, send it to us at ascrawbidfaithfi.com. Stick around. We are grateful for support from Praxis Investment Management. Since 1994, Praxis has offered investment products designed to meet practical needs for everyday investors, seeking to stewar their assets consistent with their desire to promote positive social and environmental impacts. Praxis aims to bring a faith-based approach to ETFs, mutual funds, multi-fund portfolio solutions and money market accounts reflecting their 500-year-old Annababda's Christian faith tradition. More information is available at PraxisInvest.com. Wondering who faith and finance recommends as a banking partner that aligns with Christian values? It's a Delphi Christian banking, the trusted team you've known as Christian Community Credit Union, with high yield checking, savings, visa cash back cards, and a competitive money market account.

Your everyday banking helps advance the Gospel. Visit faithfi.com slash banking and use the code faith-buy. Membership eligibility required. Accounts are privately entered up to $250,000. This institution is not federally insured. Great tab you with us today on Faith and Finance, here in our final segment. We're taking your phone calls. We've got a few lines open. I've got room for maybe one or two more if you're not currently holding. So call right now, 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. Gordon, how can I help? Thank you for taking my call. So the question I have is I have just got a 401k plan and I was thinking about investing part of it in real estate. The particular real estate I was considering would have given me like $1,600 a month income and I would have left after I took money out of my

401k about $125,000 left. So I'm just wondering if that's a good idea. I'm of the retirement age. I could retire. I'm actually over 70. I'm still working and collecting Social Security as well. Yeah. Yeah. So how much would you have? I know you said you'd have a little over 100,000 left in the 401k. How much would you pull out to make this purchase? About 175. About 175. Okay. And you've already identified this property? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The challenge is it would require a distribution unless you do a self-directed IRA. Now I'll get to that in a moment. I mean real estate can be a great great wealth building tool. The problem is, you know, although you wouldn't have that 10% early withdrawal penalty, you're going to trigger a massive ordinary income tax bill. And so you could lose a significant portion of your retirement savings before you ever buy the property. And then

perhaps even bigger than that over time, you're going to give up that continued tax deferred growth of those retirement assets. So although I like real estate as a part of a diversified plan, I generally wouldn't recommend, you know, draining or at least cutting in half, perhaps or maybe a little more than that. Two thirds of a 401k just because of the tax advantages you're giving up and the big tax bite that you'll have on the front end. Now the other option is a self-directed IRA, which is simply where you would roll the 401k to a self-directed IRA custodian. This is not your typical Schwab or fidelity. These are specialized custodians. But as soon as you get it into a self-directed IRA, then that does allow you to invest in other types of assets beyond stocks and bonds, including real estate. Now what would happen is the property would be owned by the IRA,

not you personally, you can't live in it, use it. That's fine because this is a rental. But also you can't personally manage it. And so you would have to hire a property manager because you can't be the one to personally collect the rent or perform repairs, those kinds of things. So a third party property manager would have to do all of that. All expenses would be paid from the IRA. All rental income goes back into the IRA, but you preserve that tax deferral. But give me your thoughts on all that. Well, the other thing is that I didn't mention is right now, so a couple years ago my 401k did really well. And I turned it into a cash fund as I had an information so that it isn't earning a whole lot right now, based on it's probably losing with inflation. Okay, yeah. But we don't want to get in a binary trap, which is basically where we say, okay, do we want to leave it in cash in the 401k or do we want to buy real estate? Well, what about the

third option? We leave it in the 401k, but we reinvest it into a properly diversified portfolio that's appropriate for your age and risk tolerance. Maybe even include some real estate investment trusts if you want real estate exposure or we roll it out to an IRA. And now we're not limited to those that small menu of investments inside the 401k, but any stock bond mutual fund ETF could be purchased at that point. But again, we're missing out on the big tax bill, which is probably going to affect two years or now your Irma, your Medicare premium on top of the federal and potentially state income tax. And then you've lost all the tax deferral moving forward. Does that make sense? I wouldn't say Irma. Yeah, that's the additional premium you pay two years after you have more a greater level of income. The Medicare looks at your income from two years ago and then adds a

premium to your Medicare premium on top of it could be $200 a month or more that you would get hit with because you have a spike in income. They add more premium on top of your existing Medicare premium. Yeah, so there's just a lot of implications here. And so I would love for you to find a way to do this without pulling it out of the 401k. Gordon, I hope that gives you a few things to think about. Thanks for your call. Todd's been waiting patiently in Illinois. Go ahead, sir. Quick question for you. My dad is 91 years old. As a pension, long-term care insurance. My mom had long-term care insurance. We almost used all of that. She was four years at home with dementia passed away. So my dad's been on his long-term care policy for just under two years. So we have about a $3,500 to $4,000 a month shortfall and he's down to his last $25,000 and was wondering what

your thoughts were about a reverse mortgage which would buy him another two and a half years of being in his home at 91. If there's one type of reverse mortgage that you have any thoughts about just trying to get some just general information so that I can make a good informed decision for him. Yeah, I think you're thinking in the right direction here, Todd, because as we look at all the assets that we have, we certainly have to consider as one of those that should be just a part of the financial planning conversation, home equity. Now, a lot of folks love the idea and I do as well of getting to a place where we own our home free and clear and staying that way and we live off of the assets. We've accumulated plus social security. But if you're in this situation where he's literally got a shortfall in his largest remaining asset is his home, it absolutely can be converted to a stream of income either through a home equity loan kind of thing where it's available to him,

a line of credit or just a monthly paycheck. And the great thing is that the home equity conversion mortgages, the reverse mortgages of today are far better than the ones that were heavily scrutinized years ago and for good reason because it's not collateralized in the sense that it's only collateralized by the home and it's non-recourse. So he's not on the hook for it personally. How much equity does he have in the home? He owns it, pre-inclair, it's worth about $2.50. Yeah, so this could be a great option for him. So let's do this. I've got to, I'm unfortunately I'm out of time here, the place to go and then I'd like for you to stay on the line, our team will get your information. I'll get somebody in touch with you is movement.com slash faith, that's movement.com slash faith. And then if you stay on the line tied, our team will get your information and we'll get somebody to reach out to you who can run all the illustrations and answer all of your questions but this could be just what your dad is looking for in this season of life. God bless to my friend, hang on the line. That's going to do it for us today folks.

You can support faith by at faithfi.com just click give and big thanks to my team today, Jim, Devon and Sandy. We'll see you next time. Bye bye. Faith and finance is provided by faith by and listeners like you.

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