Patrick Seaton talks about Communication and 15 Word Rule on Innovative Management Tools with Peter Mingils

0:00Welcome to Building Fortunes Radio. Make sure you check us out at BuildingFortunesRadio.com. Along with Kisk, our keep it simple circle marketing partners, we are here to help our UMungus AM and UMungus FM radio customers build their businesses and make the world a better place. At Building Fortunes Radio, we know how much your business means to you and the people important to you. So join us to make the world a better place. Head the word, tell a friend, and go make a difference in your world. Now onto our show with your host, Peter Mingles. Take it away, Peter. Hello, everyone. Peter Mingles here. You are listening to the Innovative Management Tools Radio Show with Patrick Seaton on the Building Fortunes Radio Network. We've said that a whole bunch of times since we've been starting this Patrick Seaton I met a little bit over a year ago. I met him on a radio, a radio show, speed networking event with a good guy, his name is Manny Lopez.

1:00You know, thumbs up for Manny. He's a good guy. Besides being a nice business man, he's a pleasant individual and he's a foster kid. He takes care of people that exit out of the foster care system and that's another whole story. So he's just a good man and I was on one of his speed networking things and Patrick Seaton was there as well and I like to tell his story just so people kind of hear it for the first time if you're a first-time listener and I was really intrigued with what Patrick had to say and I would say it was exceptional and what I mean by exceptional is exceptional for me. Many times when I'm on these kinds of things I shake my head left to right like in disbelief or like you know can you come up with anything that's not just like regurgitated and with Patrick I wound up shaking my head up and down in agreement. I'm like I like this like this guy's walk this walk he's taught this talk he's not just a consultant he's actually a doer as well so I like what he did and he told me he put

2:03his consulting and techniques and ideas and skills into a digital platform which I thought that was really good and I was thinking about you people listening in our building fortunes radio listening audience and I said you know you probably need what Patrick has whether yourself if you run on the company or to recommend to your company if you're working for one so you can take a look at these innovative management tools. So Patrick comes on on Thursday night 11 pm ish if you will on the eastern side and did the 9 or 10 o'clock depending on wherever he happens to be wherever Mexico time zone he might be and I think right now it's nine and we always have some fun and educational information here sometimes he does it with some guests most of the times he does his own own and I meet out myself so I can take some notes on some of the things that he's talking about and you'll probably want to do the same. So he can be reached if he go to innovative management tools but he's got a unique name Patrick Seton SCAT-ON where you can actually DM him through LinkedIn if you want to

3:06to and ask him about maybe a special offer or what he's doing with AI or what he's doing with his digital platforms or sometimes you've got a special survey or a report and you probably want to make sure that if you do anything and you want to help smoothen out those bumps that happen when you're running a business you want to check out innovative management tools.com he's also an author he's got some cool titles something about elephants and crack it by all brains and he'll talk about that on either this or other radio shows but you can always catch him up on building fortunes radio.com forward slash IMT Dancer Innovative Management Tools as well so Patrick thanks for being here on your own radio show. Thank you here it's great to be here today and hello to all listeners yeah this is I think we're about show number 80 plus or something I wow yep yep yep yep it's been it's been quite a while and it's been fun and tonight I hope is going to be just as

4:11much fun for people because tonight is a topic that I think that it I could say without a doubt that every single company and every solo printer struggles or has issues or concerns or roadblocks in some ways on this topic and that is communication and communication is very broad obviously but tonight I'm going to hopefully bring it just take one little piece of it and as we are solo printers or we have sales people who are representing our company there is we all have to sell in some way shape or form and so tonight I wanted to talk about when that pitch dies and why it dies and to do that I would like to talk

5:21about the 15 word rule so this is understanding how communication gets filtered blocked or simplified I'll explain more about that in a little bit but the 15 word rule when your pitch dies so why is it called that and I'm going to go through five fact-talking points but around this this topic but 15 word window is there because I saw in some research and I don't remember where it was but and I would agree with it as well research on attention and cognitive load shows that our primitive brain which is where all the information starts at the base of our neck the primitive brain makes a stay or go decision within the first few

6:23seconds of any message so if your opening sentence is longer than about 15 words the brain starts simplifying or blocking the message why is that because the crocodile brain the primitive brain it does not it only has very few functions it is there to see is this interesting and I should it's going to help me thrive and survive and grow so I'm going to listen but if anything is too complicated it's going to simplify it to understand should I keep paying attention if it continues to get that overload and it cannot simplify it will just say you know what this is too much work and I'm just going to check out so the the rule is and what the ship this the sorry the research is showing is that after about 15 words you're going to start putting in

7:33other ideas, commas, second thoughts and that becomes too complicated for that brain so it's going to start it's going to go into wait I have to work I have to simplify non losing track and I'm getting kind of overwhelmed so I'm not going to listen anymore so if we have an opening sentence that is longer than 15 words the brain will start to simplify or block that message and what does that mean what you think is your brilliant pitch your brilliant intro your brilliant framing or presentation never makes it past the gatekeeper in their head and that's the primitive brain the crack it up brain that is the gatekeeper to let it go into the other part of the brain so that's number one so we have we have 15 words roughly to get their attention

8:37and once we get their attention and they want to listen they let it go through and it can go to the limbic brain for the emotions and say it is pretty cool by I'm getting this sounds fun this sounds interesting this sounds hopeful and then it will go to the neocortex which is the analytical brain and the logical brain and once it goes there then it that brain will follow those more complex ideas but if we can't make it past the crack it up brain then we will not have the opportunity or the luxury to talk to the neocortex so how is it or why is it that we get into these longer than 15 word sentences and there are a few reasons one of them is the complexity trap I'll call it that because most professionals default to explaining what they do

9:41instead of why it matters to the listener or how they help the listener I'll say it again we get stuck on explaining what we do and that why it matters or how we can help them thrive and survive which is what that brain wants to hear so here's a nice you can probably see this on lots of websites right now and so I wrote it down so what do you do oh we provide integrated cloud-based solutions leveraging AI driven analytics to optimize your blah blah blah blah blah blah blah unfortunately the brain checked out probably around word number four you know after you said we provide integrated cloud-based solutions and the brain is the crack brain saying okay wait what's integrated what's cloud-based okay wait wait solution this is too

10:47too much work it's hard for me to follow the flow now to us professionals and that's what we do every day that sounds really cool very high tech high value everything but that's because we know it and when we see it we're already we want to talk these words so we're already talking it's already in our neocortex brain so I'll read that one again that I'm going to do a comparison we provide integrated cloud-based solutions leveraging AI driven analytics to optimize your now compare that to your best people are wasting 10 hours a week on reports nobody reads that is something that does not take a lot of brain power to follow all the mumbo jumbo

11:49and it's something that is concerning to me it might be a problem I'm facing and so it has caught my attention and now I want to listen so keeping things as simple as possible as your introduction now let's not to say that on the line when you after you've been speaking to them for a few times you've started to share your terminology with them you it's not that you can't go to talking about integrated cloud-based solutions leveraging AI driven analytics but they have to get ready for that and understand those words before they can listen to them and not check out so that's that's the first thing one first reason we get into this we make things too complex the second reason that I want to highlight is what is called the knowledge

12:53curse and that is a bias that many many salespeople have and the knowledge curse is well I know this so I'm sure everyone knows this because it's so common to me that others are going to understand it as well so the knowledge curse is the more you know about your subject the harder it is to communicate simply that that almost seems hard to understand the more I know about my subject the harder it is to communicate simply why is that because it simply means describe it as if an eight an eight-year-old could understand it and that that's like level one and two in words simple but if I'm the subject matter expert I maybe know everything down to level six seven eight

13:58nine and if I've been doing that for a long time it's really hard for me to remember how to describe it at level one in simple terms and we just simply forget what it was like to not know what we know so every acronym we talk about every piece of jargon every assumption we make about their understanding the listener or the reader creates another barrier between the message and their brain remember we're trying to get through the first layer of the brain so it needs to be simple because they don't might not have a reason for for listening beyond so we have to stay keep ourselves in check with the knowledge curse so those are the really those

15:00are the two things that get us into the situation that we're in with communication and so the complexity trap and the knowledge curse so if we can find a way in 15 words or less to talk about this that's the best so here's a test that can help you what I would invite you to do is take your current pitch and count the words in for sentence that's really simple then ask does it describe their problem or your solution if it's about you already lost the brain prioritizes threats and opportunities related to self not information about strangers when we go in and talk about solutions that is

16:05considered a threat on the crocodile brain because solutions mean money and you want my money that is a threat to me that's how simplistic the brain is at that level so take your pitch and count the words and then are you more focused on their problem or on your solution and then if you have been if it is focused on your solution here's what I would say or if you have a really long for sentence take your longest pitch sentence and cut it in half then cut it in half again and what's left that's probably your real message so in my world I do a lot with sales I have tools I have coaching services I work with

17:14solopreneurs I work to work with consultants and coaches so I have a lot of things I could say so I could in my message boiling it down boiling it down boiling it down I give solopreneurs the tools and coaching to stop losing deals 11 words I give solopreneurs the tools and coaching to stop losing deals now there's a whole lot that can go in and say well how do you do that why and what is that but that's really what you want in your pitch you want them to get curious you want to get past the crock brain into the curiosity and then the new cortex the logical brain kicks in it says okay so I'm I'm trying to figure out how you do that tell me more but now that brain is open and ready to listen now you don't want to

18:18go and do the knowledge curse and speak all the mumble jumbo but at least it's ready to listen to something that is more complex so I can bring my pitch down to I give solopreneurs the tools and coaching to stop losing deals those are 11 words that are problem focused brain friendly and memorable so that is the 15 word rule because we want to open the doors to conversations we don't want to close people out because we're too complicated we don't want to close people out because we come across as too aggressive too saddlesy too jargony so we need to find a way to get in with a very short phrase that they will say huh okay you got me tell me more

19:31so I invite everyone to do take that test bring it down to less than 15 words and is it focused on their problem because in mind the consultants as a solopreneurs they're losing deals that's the problem yes I have the tools and coaching that is going on solution but it's the focus is on solopreneurs have can stop losing deals so that's what a lot of people in the solopreneur world complain about I should have won that I don't know I didn't so Peter that thoughts on the 15 word rule I love it I really like I really love it the 15 word

20:37rule makes a lot of sense and I'll just throw in my I said at the beginning part of this that I always nod my head up and down when I listen to you so when you were doing the first 15 words that the wrong the wrong way to do it it reminds me a lot of the things that happen with me when I talk to techie people so I'm a company owner and I'm not a techie guy but I have to make techie decisions and my techie guys say well we're using clawed for this in the scuzzy drive over here for this and whatever for that and whatever and we're going to be using this integrated ftp whatever and I'm like listen you don't get it I have to try to process everything that you say so when you say ftp I got to think of what that is like you know what it is I don't yeah though and using your example and use like cloud based AI driven data analytics I'm like stop like you got to stop I don't my brain can't process that because I kind of have to grab a dictionary after every word

21:41you're saying so now that frustrates the hell out of me if I have to make decisions but I always have to constantly remind techie guys which brings me to my second point I don't remember what words you used that I call it program or arrogance program program or arrogance is well I know what it is so that means you should know what it is and I'm just going to be arrogantly thinking that you should know what it is because I know what it is even if it was something I just learned three seconds ago so kind of like yeah I know I know you used the different word I came up with another one because I was somewhat slightly sarcastic when I was talking to my programmers because they would be like oh we're going to use now this is by the way new stuff but you know they'll say well we're using notebook 11 and cloud and we're open open AI and chatch ept and whatever I'm like what the hell do you really think that I know what each one of these things are like what

22:42what's going on like there's my programmer arrogance phrase it's like you know what's a cloud is a cloud C L A W E D or is it C L A U D E because I think it could be the same thing are very different especially in the technology driven world today so I'm one million percent on board with everything that you've said so far like one million percent like I love it and I love the way you turned around the 15 words and to be in that really very simple you didn't have to go back to school to learn the question but it was very thought provoking so it'd be like yeah I want to learn more yeah that's my problem I want to learn more so pitch into my icebreaker and that will do as well for good stuff I love it good stuff so sometimes you know it's interesting you're would you come in about the programmer arrogance sometimes it's not necessarily that it's that you know there's not that arrogance like I'm I get I get I came I came to that

23:47conclusion because I was working with programmers right the knowledge person is that it has become so common for me in the vocabulary and that when I talk to other people I don't even realize that I'm using vocabulary that they don't understand right this is my everyday vocabulary you know there are some companies that they have so many acronyms for internal stuff and salespeople or there are implementation people or there are tech people oh well you know what we'll just go over to our ABC and do the PDQ and and then on our side we'll put it through our TQM and and because it that's how they talk every day in their company it's a new language but they forget what it was like the on day one when they walked in and people were talking

24:50all those mumbo jumbo and they're going what the heck is all this and over time they just learn the language just like kids learn language growing up they learn the language and they just keep saying it using it and they forget that others don't so there is some there are moments I will say when people use that knowledge curse as a way to they think it's to impress or to sound really intelligent and important but unfortunately what they don't realize unless they're talking to other people who really really know that language they don't sound intelligent and impressive they are just complicating everything for the listener and the listener starts to lose interest

25:53so what they think is going to help them is in fact it has a risk of hurting them so I agree and I'm just going to add a little bit to my observation of that and sometimes people spill out those words and to somebody who's not part of that culture like you just said it's like a word salad and it's a whole bunch of things it said nothing at all and specifically I'll use an example when I watch people that tell stories about the stock market you know they taught they use all these words that really sound impressive but by the time I'm done listen to them I'm like you're making this shit up like you're like you went to MSU you know you went to the MSU which is the making shit up stuff it's just like you know this trend over here and this thing over here and this thing over here and this thing over here I said you know I listened to you for about a minute I still don't know what you said maybe you guys know what you said but I all think you're full of shit because you're making stuff up and for me if I'm the one

26:57who's supposed to be the most important person in the room because I'm making the decision like you guys are sitting there telling me about trends and making up stories and I'm like wait a minute like this doesn't make any sense to me at all so so I love this conversation about communication because it really is the heart of a lot of different things you know any sales process sure but also you know you're selling to your employees you're selling you know different concepts and ideas to the people that you're working with so this is really important I'm digging it cool all right so um so we've talked about the communication when we are when we are talking to other people and what I like to do is go to the second half and for those who don't know every show we highlight one of the framework tools that I have built over the a period of time and you don't need to say on my decades Peter um but I would like to

28:01talk about the communication tool tonight and but from a different angle um we just got to talking about when people are talking to others and we're going to turn that around but first we always on the show have music because radio is not radio without music so we have a song that talks about communication and when you come back I will explain the conversation framework called bridges perfect here we go in the office rind lack of info such a fine email to lay crucial updates stay behind the shopper answered as well when met with echoes weak deadlines creed closer no clary mystique i'm portatively cautious to the silent blade gotta fix this time before it drags us in wake

29:09here the case is broken we can't move back desperation is broken i'm always alive that's more susceptible time to push back together we'll break through get back on track in every meeting it's the same old silent stare promises of change but the action isn't there we're chasing shadows clary's a dream for trade team splinter stress lingers the progress stays stays the things end of the dance of endless waste training to find meaning in the tangled wire maze communication is broken we can't move back desperation is broken i'm always alive that's more susceptible time to push back together we'll break through get back on track

30:16normal risk was in dark man the light break the chains to find us rise and fight sure enough that we can't but not the whole report off future isn't bold communication is broken we can't move back desperation is broken how long let's alive that's more susceptible time to push back together we'll break through get back on track alright so communication um to put this in a little bit into perspective so for um over a decade now i have been i have a survey challenges survey that i use with companies and it goes through 28 different categories and give some scenarios and ask here's the scenario does it exist

31:17do you see it have you heard about it do you talk about it do you suffer from it whatever you want and it's a simple yes or no um and this is a survey that goes out to all the employees uh so you get a fair uh at all altitudes they're their their understanding and perception so communication is one of the topics and um it is one of the highest challenges that people point to do and when i say one of the highest it of all the people i've surveyed communication is in 95.83 percent of the respondents say we have challenges with communication so 95 out of 100 companies were the people from their perception their perspective say they have

32:21these challenges they have challenges with communication and the three situations are scenarios that they are given are the following um there is a general perception or evidence that there is pork or inadequate communication in the company and a task force or team has been assembled to look for ways to improve so you know we're going to put a communication task force together to figure out how we can communicate better number two um employees complain that information needed to do the work arise late or not at all and that impacts their performance and productivity so information is not communicated appropriately and the third scenario is people who need information must babysit the sender to get the information as timely manner causing bottlenecks and frustration so this is the conversation framework and the conversation

33:28frameworks are digital tools small group analysis uh collaboration and this one in particular is bringing together people who are frustrated or have are complaining about we have a problem with communication i'm not getting what i need in the way i need it and i'm really getting frustrated so what the communicate what the the framework communication framework bridges it is how can we improve the communication bridges and the flow of communication to those people so this is not a real broad let's just look at ways of communicating this is very specific i'm frustrated i have things that i want to improve for me and so we bring those people in and we'll say okay let's start talking about what you need

34:39you just said you need improved communication so what is it that you are not getting that you need now when i say what are you not getting this is some of the new ones of it you ask that person so yeah i need this information okay how are you getting it today if you are getting it are you getting it through is it in the way that you think it's best for example someone might for whatever reason they might transfer information by telephone or they just there's a conference call that's how they get information and they go that's not good enough for me for what i need with to do with that information i need it in a different format so what would that format be if you have your way what would you like would you like it to be in electronic like an email a chat a direct message would you like it to be a face-to-face would you

35:46like it to be a video call would you like it to be written memo a report put it in a share drive how would you like to get the information that you need so that you can do what you need to do and perform your job so in order to help the person when they say well this is what i'm getting in this format it's not working okay so we can also dig into that and say well what is the information that's being shared and they they document that why do you need this information maybe it's not clear might be i don't get the information i need well why do you need it for this it could be the other person who delivers that information to others just doesn't know that you need it who initiates it that information and what is the frequency maybe that frequency is not

36:53frequent enough maybe it's too frequent and i'm getting overloaded with something when i don't need it i need not so often i need it in summary i need it in a different different presentation so this is a way to work through instead of just saying well yes i'm frustrated and yes i am complaining about this okay that's fine but now let's sit down proactively and look at what you're frustrated with and let's let's fix it let's make some adjustments so that it betters you and then we'll go back to the people who are delivering giving that information and see what we can do to change the way the information arrives so there are also in the conversation framework there are some what i call identifier cards identifiers for it you know well what really is going on with this information or what's going on the person might say well you know just

37:58needs a better process very you know it doesn't arrive smoothly easily or it's just not efficient what i get is only half done then i have to do this another okay it's not efficient for me or it's not effective or it could be it's not timely enough or it needs additional understanding something doesn't make sense in the information maybe they could say it needs improvement could be the process the way it's delivered maybe it's too piecemeal maybe the information needs clarity or focus maybe we need some automation or maybe it's just not consistent enough so these identifiers help to really explain what's going on here so i you know i know who's coming from

39:03all this and i can complain about it but here i can get into more tactical how can we solve it if it's not timely enough okay how often do you get it well maybe every three weeks how often do you need it i need it every week okay it's not timely enough so let's work on that that's much easier to go and work on and fix than just you know i need to get this information better okay that's not that's really not helping and so in this in this activity when you're looking at the different kinds of communication bridges that people have for specific information we can summarize and get a better understanding as to why somebody could be really frustrated or burned out or ticked off because when they look at the hot spots for themselves

40:09they probably don't have a strong bridge of communication if they did they wouldn't really be putting it on the table here they might have a weak bridge there might be no bridge maybe somebody left and now the information doesn't come at all maybe the bridge is being built or maybe the bridge was burned down for some reason so now we can start looking at with another filter how can we go and fix it for the long term and get to the point of having a strong communication bridge with between the person who's providing the information or the system and the person who needs it because what we want is all of the critical information that people need to do the job we want them to get it when they need it how they need it and keep them moving

41:12along so that they have a productivity they have their performance and they can do what they need to do so this is a in the family of conversation frameworks this is one where it is not group it's not a collaboration per se because everybody is having their own personal evaluation of what's working for me and not however you can bring multiple people into a session they're just working on their own on their own space of the board these are all in Miro so they're they're interactive whiteboards but they have their own space to work and the facilitator is going around working with them so that they can get the important information do the analysis and come up with action plans help that person with who else should be involved

42:14so bridges is those three scenarios in 96% of the companies there is a communication issue here and if people could solve the problem themselves they would but there are things that they feel like they can't solve on their own and this is where the bridges communication analysis activity comes into play and you can help turn those unhappy communication experiences into something that makes them feel better feel more productive more adding more value add and contributing so Peter thoughts on bridges nope we're good crystal clear good stuff okay so

43:20for every every week I like to offer something or an announcement or whatever it might be but I think I'll put out there today the the survey that I talked about I call it diagnosis and it's a organizational challenges survey and I offer any company a to select up to 10 people free of charge to take the survey and I'll give a report that starts to show what the findings are and if you want to go into more employees then we can talk about that but it goes through the 28 different categories and at the end you'll start seeing where do we have patterns where do we have trends what are people saying exist and when I give that report to management senior management they often are surprised but rightly so you know they don't know what's going on you know if

44:26they're at the 50 thousand foot level they don't know what's going on at a thousand feet nor should they if they if a 50 thousand foot person knows everything is going on at 1000 feet more than likely they're not doing their job completely at 50 thousand feet so this is a way for them to understand that oh my gosh this is a topic that people are concerned about I don't see it because it doesn't impact me where I'm at but it is a topic that people want to talk about and it's there's an elephant in the room but I don't see that elephant so I'm going to sweep it underneath my rug so companies have a lot of elephants under the rug and this is a way to start peeking under your rugs and see what elephants do we have hiding in there that we are just not paying attention to but they are impacting performers so that diagnosed flash survey that's the one for up to 10 people

45:35direct message me happy to get that organized we expect 10 people across your organization your company we go for it and you can start looking at what are the challenges that people are dealing with and no there's there's if this is about awareness and understanding of I have tools to help but you might also have tools so this is just the initial step to say hey why don't we check it out and it's free so what do you have to lose really take a look the worst thing that can happen is that you realize we have more challenges than we thought but you know what they've probably been there for a long time so it's not like just yesterday they popped up so your company's down with it but there are ways to get past that and help improve the situation so that is the announcement offer the opportunity for the week the diagnosed flash report

46:43and Peter if you do you have any other thoughts or topics nope but the best way to get that would be to probably do a DM for you on your LinkedIn yes sir that is exactly the best way let's just start the dialogue next one yeah good so yeah I know we'll go to you on this one yeah that's right I could follow you on this one that's for sure well that's good I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad I'm going to be explaining well okay so let's go to the second song again it's about communication and if remember those three scenarios I talked about it will probably throw those in there the task force babysitting and I'm not getting the information in a timely manner so Peter if you want to throw that song on there we go don't number two change to this desk I'm left in the dark one thing for answers feels like a shot in the dark messages locked in the void never

47:47replied cry for help weak silence and deadline side by this communication like a player's breath and I'm drowning in the noise locked in the stress we were the wall break we were alive finally speak something is a new location break down now feeling so weak promise is mean but never kept in this ocean of chaos I swear man I will try to keep up but always falling behind this information locked leaving me blind every chance I'm out of every moment fight and I'm left in the shadows just being polite with all the we were alive finally speak something is a new location break down now now I'm feeling so

48:56so echoes of silence the noise never clears lonely in its fastest drowning in fear see the signal need a sign but I'm left behind we were the wall break we were alive finally speak something is a new location break down now I'm feeling so weak cool all right it's kind of heavy metal night for music yeah I was going to say yeah kind of creative

49:56so yeah so please anyone listening as you if you if you are in that 4% that has absolutely all the communication in line then applaud yourself and but if you are at 50,000 foot level then it is more than likely that somewhere in your organization company there are communication issues and people are not getting what they need and this verges activity or focusing on this could be very helpful to the people and when they have better performance and at their level overall the company performs better as well perfect this is good so for those people want to hear this again if you go back to building fortunes radio and you take a look at innovative end of controls I got the keywords in their communication and the 15 word rule and also bridges so you'll see that in there you'll be able to

51:01pick this one out and this is the one we probably to listen to at least once a week I think so like once a week forever so this is a good stuff Patrick I appreciate it okay thank you all right we'll see you next week we will see you next week for those people we're listening in that's depending on wherever you are it's February 19th 2026 this is good stuff and Patrick I really want to thank you for bringing all this really great content because this is good stuff and things that people need to remember for sure to make a big difference in their business their life anything else they want to apply it to so thanks for being here check them out Patrick's here go to go to LinkedIn we'll see you everybody next time you've been listening to building fortunes radio on building fortunes radio dot com thanks for listening building fortunes radio is part of the humongous AM and humongous FM radio network be sure to check out the building fortunes radio dot com website to listen to your favorite shows you can also hear us on humongous radio and wherever you find your favorite podcasts

52:03it's been our privilege to have you listen in a building fortunes radio we wish you the success you deserve and are willing to work for