Open Door Policy (PODCAST EXCLUSIVE EPISODE)

0:00In the fall of 2009, a very anxious college student was sitting inside of a crowded lecture hall in Southern California Listening to his professor give a talk and suddenly the doors to the building opened up and in walked three campus police Along with a man in a suit and so everybody goes quiet the professor as well and these men They walked down to the front and they whisper something to the professor at which point the professor who looks confused himself He goes to the podium and he leans into the mic and he looks up at the anxious college student and the professor just says They want to talk to you but before we get into today's story If you're a fan of the strange dark and mysterious delivered in story format and you've come to the right place because that's all we do So if that's of interest to you Please invite the follow button to come with you on a fun long road trip and at some point when you're out on the road When the follow button has to use the bathroom pull over to a rest stop and let them out But then before they come back out again, just leave

1:01Okay, let's get into today's story On the morning of Thursday, October 22nd, 2009 a 41-year-old man named Damon Nicholson Opened the double doors to a hotel ballroom in Laguna Beach, California Damon was an event planner at the hotel and today he was giving a tour to a recently engaged couple who wanted to use the space for their wedding So event planning was like the perfect job for Damon because he loved a good party and he'd always been great with people And in fact by the time he'd shown this couple the ballroom and then led them out onto the veranda to show off the hotel's amazing beach front fused They were all chatting and laughing like they were longtime friends and the couple was now dead set on using the space

2:06Just then Damon felt a cell phone buzz in his pocket so he politely excused himself He stepped away and when he pulled his phone out He saw he'd gotten a text message from a college student who he had just recently begun dating The guy's name was Alan Caulfield and Alan was texting Damon just to make sure they were still on for their date that night After reading this message Damon found himself not really sure how to respond After all, I mean right now he was feeling really tired because the night before he had been out late having a good time and Actually the night before that as well. He'd been out late So he's like really tired from all the partying he was doing Laguna Beach was known for having this really big gay community and Damon liked a Date around quite a bit. He'd grown up in a much more conservative family and his sexual orientation had always been a source of a lot of pain in his life But here in Laguna Beach He felt fully accepted and free and he was really enjoying his life But his lifestyle could also get kind of wild sometimes with

3:06Partying so hard and like he even got involved in some of these Anonymous group sex parties. I mean he really was just living it up And in fact this week in addition to to being tired from all the partying he'd been doing Also all this staying out late and partying had gotten him behind on his work And so in seeing this text from Alan He's thinking not only physically do I sort of feel depleted and don't really fill up for another night of that But also like I really need to be responsible and like do my work tonight But he really liked Alan He didn't want to give off the impression that you know, he wasn't interested and so he ultimately was like you know what? I'll go out with him. So Damon just sent a text confirming the date back to Alan And then he put the phone back in his pocket and walked over and continued the tour Later that same night around 10 p.m Damon stood on the porch of his first floor apartment watching Alan's car pull away from the curb They'd spent a few fun hours together, but Damon had actually cut the night short

4:09He had really enjoyed you know having his time with Alan But even though it was late he did need to get some work done And so he figured that's what he would do before going to bed. So Damon watched Alan's car disappear around the corner And he turned and went back inside of his apartment Leaving the sliding glass door open just a few inches Then he walked over and sat down on the couch He opened up his laptop and it took him a minute to sort of get focused again, but once he did he Got in the zone and he sort of lost track of time And he'd been working for a while when he heard footsteps out on the porch outside and he looked up just as the door slid open At 2.30 p.m. the next day a woman named Lindsay Scott got out of her car and walked over to Damon's apartment Lindsay worked with Damon at the hotel and she was worried because he hadn't showed up to work that morning So now after calling him multiple times with no response Lindsay had decided to just go over to Damon's place and just check on him during her break As she stepped onto the porch, Lindsay saw the sliding glass door leading into Damon's apartment was open

5:14But Lindsay actually was not that surprised because she had been to parties at Damon's place And she knew he had this kind of open door policy where his friends would just drop by unannounced So Lindsay just Poked her head through the open door and called out for Damon when he didn't answer She stepped inside but immediately frozen shock at what she saw and right away She turned ran out of the apartment she grabbed her phone and she called 911 About 30 minutes later Detective Larry Bammer of the Laguna Beach Police Department parked his car outside of Damon's apartment building It was a small building and it was located about a block away from the beach and this was a pretty quiet area In fact in Bammer's experience this area really didn't see much crime at all and A homicide like the one Bammer had been brought in here to investigate was basically unheard of Bammer made his way over to the building Yeltsmately climbed up the steps to the wooden porch

6:15He ducked under the yellow crime scene tape that was blocking the doorway and he stepped inside of Damon's apartment The small apartment was already crowded with crime scene texts were taking photos and dusting everything for prints and the body of a man Was slumped over right on the couch fully dressed and also partially covered in pillows Bammer walked over to get a better look and when he did he realized he actually recognized the victim It was Damon Nicholson the event planner who for years had coordinated the police department's annual Christmas party Bammer shook his head because you know in his experience Damon had always seemed like a really nice guy You know he couldn't think of you know how he could get wrapped up in something that would turn into him getting murdered But you know, Bammer was here to do a job and so despite the personal connection He leaned in and got to work and right away He noticed that the back of Damon's head was covered with blood like he'd been struck with a blunt instrument But there were no obvious contenders for the murder weapon anywhere in sight like nobody had brought anything up that could have been used to kill him

7:20Additionally, Bammer didn't see any blood anywhere else in the room He was in aside from obviously the blood on the victim and also on the couch So that likely meant Damon likely died where he was right now Next, Bammer looked at the throw pillows that had been piled up on Damon's legs From how they were positioned it was obvious that Damon had not put them there himself Bammer knew that killers sometimes covered up the victim's bodies It was usually a sign of shame or remorse after the fact So that could mean that they killer new Damon personally and after killing him they felt bad and covered him up or something But the pillows were definitely not definitive by any means Once he'd seen enough of the body Bammer walked around the rest of the apartment before ultimately making his way over to the forensic team lead And she confirmed that there were no signs of forced entry and that according to the woman who had called 911, Lindsay Scott The door had been open when she arrived Lindsay had also said that Damon had a habit of leaving the door open whenever he was home

8:24Which meant that any stranger could have seen the open door and wandered in off the street Now the apartment didn't appear to have been ransacked or anything But there was a pile of loose garbage sitting in the middle of the kitchen floor right next to the trash can The lid was lying on the floor beside the can and there was no trash can liner inside It was like an empty trash can So detective Bammer guessed that what likely happened here is the killer Took the liner that had been in there pulled it out of the can dumped out the contents But then it used that same bag Probably to hold the murder weapon or maybe some bloody clothes and brought it with them on their way out And then also despite the police not being able to know what actually had been in the apartment before the attack It did look like a few things had been taken For example, there was a computer mouse that was on the coffee table But no computer or laptop anywhere in the apartment And also the forensics team had not found Damon's cell phone anywhere So it looked like the motive maybe could have been robbery

9:27But that bothered Bammer Because robbery was impersonal And those pillows piled on Damon's legs in his body Those felt personal On top of that Killing someone with a blunt instrument Took a lot of strength and determination And in Bammer's experience that was the kind of violence that typically came from a serious grudge Someone with a personal connection to the victim So Bammer couldn't be sure if Damon had been killed by someone he knew Or a stranger who had just walked in off the street It was like either one really could have happened here Either way, if the killer had taken Damon's cell phone They had made a huge mistake Because Damon's phone could be tracked And if the killer still had it It would lead Bammer right to them On October 25th 2009 So two days after Damon Nicholson was found bludgeoned to death in his apartment

10:28Detective Larry Bammer climbed into a dumpster Right outside of an apartment building About 20 minutes north of Damon's home in Laguna Beach Once inside he crouched down and began sorting through the garbage Bammer had tracked Damon's missing cell phone to this apartment building So he knew it had to be somewhere nearby But this building was enormous And searching it unit by unit would take days And on top of that it just seemed unlikely that the killer would have led them straight to their home There was a good chance that they had realized the phone could be tracked and had dumped it somewhere So now Bammer and a dozen other officers were checking all the dumpsters Before they resorted to going inside and canvassing the building unit by unit By this point for context Bammer had reviewed the autopsy report for Damon Nicholson And it confirmed that Damon had died from multiple blows from a blunt instrument Probably sometime between 1 and 3am on October 23rd So in the very early morning hours of the same day the body was found

11:30The forensic team had found fingerprints inside of Damon's apartment But they had found so many different fingerprints from so many people That in essence the fingerprints became useless There was just too many of them However they had found DNA inside the lid of Damon's garbage can Which Bammer knew or assumed the killer had very likely touched when they dumped out the trash and took the trash liner Now Damon and his team had already sent that DNA sample to the crime lab for analysis But those results would take a few weeks at least to come back So in the meantime finding Damon's missing phone was the best lead And so now Bammer was still, you know, needy-pun trash sifting through the dumpster When he heard a door open nearby He stood up and he turned to see this bearded man step out of the apartment building And he's looking over at Bammer inquisitively Bammer showed the man his badge and explained the whole situation And when he mentioned that they were specifically looking for a cell phone that they had tracked to this building

12:32The bearded man replied that he knew exactly where they could find that phone Because he had it Minutes later detective Bammer followed the bearded man into a cluttered office on the first floor of the apartment building The man who gave his name as Rick Larson explained that he was the building custodian And that he actually regularly checked the dumpsters to see if tenants had thrown out anything good Then he opened up the top drawer of his desk And he took out a cell phone that he had found And Bammer when he saw it he took out his own phone and he called Damon's phone number And sure enough a moment later the trash can phone the one that had been in Rick's desk began to ring So this was definitely Damon's phone But now Bammer had to wonder if Rick's dumpster diving story was true Or if it was just an excuse to explain why he was in possession of a murdered man's missing phone So Bammer was pretty direct and just asked Rick point blank where he'd been between 1 and 3am on the morning of October 23rd

13:34And Rick when he heard this question looked genuinely surprised And then sort of worried and then he said he'd been here asleep in his own apartment But when Bammer pressed him on this you know asked him is there anybody else out there who could verify that you really were here Rick just shook his head and said no he'd been alone Just a little while later Bammer left the apartment building but now carrying two bags One bag contained Damon's cell phone and the other bag contained the DNA kit with Rick Larson sample in it Now it would take time for the crime lab to compare Rick the apartment building custodian his sample that they had just gotten To the DNA from the crime scene But in the meantime Bammer did now have Damon's phone to go through He still wasn't sure if Damon had been killed by a random burglar or just a random stranger period Or if maybe there was a personal component to the murder And so now he wanted to try to dig into Damon's personal life And find out who he'd been spending time with before he was killed

14:37And a way to do that was going to hopefully beat through his phone A few days later just after lunch Bammer sat inside of an interview room Across from a professionally dressed man with a big gauze bandage wrapped around one of his hands Bammer had spent the last few days reviewing Damon's phone records and also his online dating profile And by now he knew that Damon had been seeing a number of men before his murder So Bammer was working through that list of men and bringing them in one by one The man with the bandage tan that he was interviewing right now was a guy named Ethan Cooper And from Damon's phone activity, Bammer knew that Ethan had gone on a date with Damon just two nights before the murder Bammer did not need to tell Ethan that Damon was dead because clearly Ethan already knew I mean as it was the murder was all over the news And it was an especially big deal for Laguna Beach's gay community So by this point it was like everybody knew Ethan included According to Ethan, his date with Damon a couple of days before the murder had been pretty straightforward

15:41They'd gone out for drinks before heading back to Damon's place to watch a movie and Ethan had wound up spending the night there At some point Bammer asked Ethan about the bandage on his hand And Ethan explained that it was actually a spider bite Bammer was surprised to hear this, I mean spider bites especially spider bites that require huge bandaging are pretty rare and so he just asked to see it And Ethan clearly hesitated But then he did unwrap the bandage and he held out his hand And there definitely was a big wound on Ethan's hand It was right in the center of his palm But to Bammer it did not look like a spider bite or not like any spider bite he had ever seen It didn't even look like a puncture of any kind It looked more like a cut like a laceration The kind of wound that someone might get during a life and death struggle with somebody else Ethan must have read Bammer's face because he quickly added that he had gotten this bite before Damon was murdered and that he'd actually shown the bite to his boss at work

16:43Who could vouch for him? Bammer said he'd take down the number for Ethan's boss As well as contact info for anyone who could verify Ethan's whereabouts on the night of the murder And while he had Ethan there he said he'd like to get a DNA sample too The next morning, Bammer was back inside the interview room with the next person on his list This time it was a middle-aged man in glasses named Todd Daniels From reading all their messages to each other in Damon's cell phone Bammer could tell that Todd and Damon had been friends for years And that they had seen each other the night after Damon's date with Ethan Which was one night before Damon was killed When Bammer asked Todd what he and Damon had done that night So again the night before Damon was killed Todd seemed really uncomfortable Todd explained that what he had to say about that night was extremely personal But he was willing to share it with the police on the off chance that it could be relevant Bammer told him he really couldn't make any promises in terms of what he did with the information he was going to get

17:45But he would try to be discreet So Todd somewhat reluctantly explained that he and Damon had not just been friends They'd actually been sexually involved They'd been hooking up casually for years And that their visits always tended to go the exact same way Todd would show up at Damon's apartment and just let himself in through the sliding door That was often just left open Todd said that inside the lights would all be off in the apartment And Damon would be waiting Wearing nothing but a ski cap pulled all the way down to cover his face Sometimes Todd said it wouldn't just be him Who was showing up to meet up with Damon Todd would bring other partners to join in Basically it was you know anonymous sex And Todd said he was pretty sure he was not the only one with this kind of arrangement with Damon Damon clearly did this with other men too Bammer after hearing this just sort of sat there in silence for a moment

18:46If Todd was right here it meant that Damon had you know potentially for years been letting an unknown number of strangers into his home And that meant Bammer's pull of suspects had just gotten a whole lot bigger On the morning of October 29th so one week after the murder Bammer was at his desk still working tirelessly to get through all of Damon's contacts To figure out like who's even in this suspect pool And so he leaned closer to his computer screen and he's reading all this information And he's just so frustrated because it just felt like this was an overwhelming amount of work Since his interview with Todd the man who brought up that Damon allowed strangers to come in and have sex with him Since that meeting Bammer had spoken to more than a dozen men who had had casual sexual relationships with Damon Including some with arrangements that were in fact similar to the one that Todd had described Now Bammer had already collected DNA samples for most of these men he had spoken to

19:48And he had sent those samples off to the lab along with the ones he'd gotten from Rick and Ethan and Todd But again it's like it's just a waiting game You get to wait for the results to come back And it's like the likelihood you're going to find a match is kind of low Because there's just so many people now that that comprise this pool But Bammer now had another lead that did seem really promising He finally had more details on a phone number that had called and texted Damon multiple times on the night he died The number belonged to a man named Alan Caulfield And it looked like Alan and Damon had been planning to see each other on the night that Damon died And so if that date had happened if these two got together It would make Alan very likely the last person to have seen Damon alive So after reviewing his notes, Bammer picked up his phone And he called Alan's number When Alan picked up, Bammer explained that he was a detective with the Laguna Beach police And he really needed to speak with Alan about a homicide

20:49And Alan, without asking for any clarification about who had been killed or really anything at all He just stammered that he didn't think he could possibly have information about anything like that It was very obvious to Bammer that Alan did not want to be on this phone call So before he could allow Alan to hang up Bammer just got right to the point And asked if Alan had been to Damon Nicholson's apartment on the night of October 22nd Alan was silent for a long moment And then when he finally did reply, he just said that he was not willing to answer that question One morning in early November of 2009 So just over a week after Damon Nicholson was murdered at his apartment in Laguna Beach Detective Larry Bammer stood in an empty college classroom in San Diego, California A young man named Alan Cawfield sat in a chair in front of him very nervously tapping his foot on the floor

21:52Alan had not been willing to admit anything over the phone with Bammer But Bammer believed that he had been with Damon on the night he was killed And so that fact, combined with Alan's reluctance to talk to the police, had pushed Alan to the top of Bammer's suspect list Bammer thought, you know, scaring Alan with a public scene might rattle him and get him to open up So Bammer had made the 80 minute drive to Alan's college And asked the campus police to pull Alan out of class And bring him to an empty classroom to conduct the interview Basically rip him out of his life and force him to confront a homicide detective And so now when Bammer asked the very rattled Alan If he had been to Damon's apartment on the night of October 22nd Alan this time did not try to put a put a fight Instead he just shut his eyes and he nodded and said yes He said that he had met Damon sometime around 8 pm that night And they'd hung out for a little bit and then Alan had left sometime around 10 pm

22:55And he had just driven back home, that was it Bammer jotted the info down in his notepad But inside he's thinking to himself, okay You know, if Alan's telling me the truth That meant he left Damon's apartment a few hours before Damon was killed Because the autopsy said that Damon was killed sometime between 1 and 3 am Alan saying he was gone by 10 pm However, Alan had been really cagey with Bammer on the phone He wouldn't give him any information He was so quick to dismiss, you know, even talking to Bammer And now Bammer had to drive all the way here and cause a scene Just to get him to what admit to spending a couple of hours with Damon If you had nothing to do with it, this should have been revealed very quickly And so at this point, Bammer was not totally sold That what Alan had just told him was true So he asked Alan to just give them a DNA sample It would be the cleanest way to rule him out And Alan, he paused and just stared at the floor for a second And then he said, okay

23:57Whatever the police wanted, he would do About two weeks later on November 17th So just under a month after Damon was murdered Detective Bammer was back at his desk reviewing the case files And as he did, he found himself constantly looking over at his phone Because the crime lab had told him to expect the long-awaited DNA results any day now And so he's anxiously waiting to see those results Bammer really hoped the crime lab had found something useful Because his best lead in this case had just completely fallen apart Alan Caulfield, the KG college student, had ultimately provided a fast food receipt That placed him a good distance from Damon's apartment around the time the police believed Damon was killed Now this was not an airtight alibi because the autopsy only gave the police a rough estimate for the murder time Which was one to three a.m So there was still a chance that maybe Alan had doubled back later to kill Damon But for now, this fast food receipt was enough to push Alan a little bit down the suspect list

25:02Meanwhile, Todd Daniels, the middle-aged man who'd been hooking up with Damon for years Who described the anonymous group sex settings Well, he was looking even more suspicious Now Todd had seemed really cooperative in his interview But Bammer had recently learned something potentially quite significant Todd just so happened to live in the exact same apartment building where Damon's stolen phone had turned up To Bammer, it just felt like there was no way this could be a coincidence However, Bammer, in addition to being suspicious of Todd Daniels here, he was also really suspicious of Ethan Cooper The man who had that strange wound on his hand that he said was a spider bite Because following the interview where Bammer met Ethan and saw the spider bite He had contacted Ethan's boss And the boss had said that Ethan told him about that injury before Damon's murder, that was true But the boss said he didn't call it a spider bite

26:05He said it was a work injury So, to Bammer, it felt like the fact that Ethan seemed to have changed the story about the injury fell off and in the context of what was being investigated, it felt very suspicious And then of course, there was also Rick Larson, the sort of forgotten about building custodian who just so happened to have Damon's phone in his possession when the police tracked it down And although he claimed he had been alone in his apartment at the time of the murder he still didn't have anybody who could actually vouch for him, so it was just sort of like his word Against the timeline Thinking about all this stuff just made Bammer's head hurt And it just reminded him how contradictory all the evidence in this case had been from the start The phone being missing from the apartment and then somehow found over at this apartment building Suggested it had been stolen, which points to this being a robbery But the pillows piled up on Damon's body hinted at a personal motive So not a random burglary but a grudge maybe

27:06Now the unlocked door suggested crime of opportunity, slash, stranger committing this crime But all the people who who used that door or who knew about there being an open door to Damon's place They all had a personal connection with Damon, they had a sexual history with him So it didn't feel random, it felt like, you know, again, personal It was like every time a lead took Bammer in one direction Another one appeared to send him back the other way And so now he was weeks into this investigation And felt like he had no idea who did it or why It was like was it personal, was it random, was it a robbery, was it a grudge Nobody seems to know And so Bammer was grappling with all this in his head When his phone finally rang Bammer grabbed it and he answered it And he had this jolt of excitement when the caller said they were with the crime lab And they told him that they have finished analyzing the DNA samples that he had submitted And they had a match As soon as Bammer was given the results of this test

28:09He was given the information of the person it matched He hung up and he ran a search on his computer And as he began to read The frustration that had been sitting on his chest just lifted Because he could see it now Every contradiction, every loose thread, every piece of evidence That it seemed to point in different directions They had all, in fact, been pointing at the same person He just hadn't known it yet Based on evidence collected at the crime scene Witness testimony and a partial confession This is what police believe happened to Damon Nicholson Between the night of October 22nd And the early morning hours of October 23rd 2009 The killer climbed the steps of the porch outside of Damon's apartment And found that the sliding glass door was open just like last time

29:10So they turned back and sort of gestured to their accomplice Saying like, hey, the plan's on The killer then slid the door the rest of the way open And stepped inside the apartment And immediately they spotted Damon on the couch He was sitting up, he was typing on his laptop on the coffee table But as the killer entered the apartment Damon stopped and turned around and looked right at them And when Damon looked at the killer, Damon smiled But then, a second later, the killer's accomplice also slipped through the door At which point Damon smiled vanished And then before Damon could call out for help or really do anything The killer walked over to the couch And lifted up the metal baseball bat they'd brought along Damon saw the bat and threw his arms up over his head to defend himself But the killer took one step to the side And swung the bat and struck Damon's skull And then from there the killer wound up and struck Damon again and again

30:11Until Damon wasn't moving He stood no shot For a moment the killer just stood there, staring down at what they'd done Damon at this point was either dead or actively dying But he was just slumped over on the couch And there was blood pouring out the back of his head And so the killer was like in a days And then at some point the accomplice who was actually still You know, in the apartment but they had stayed near the door They were not close to the actual scene They hadn't really seen what was going on And they called out to the killer like, hey what's going on in there And they kind of snapped the killer out of their shock they were in At which point the killer grabbed some throw pillows and put them on top Of Damon's body to try to obscure him from view Then at that point the two of them the killer and the accomplice Just kind of hurried through the apartment Grabbing Damon's laptop, his cell phone, and some other electronics In the kitchen the killer spotted that trash can and got an idea They walked over and they dumped the trash can out So all the contents are all over the kitchen floor

31:12But now with this empty trash can liner They wrapped up their bloody baseball bat To keep it from dripping all over the apartment on the way out And then a few minutes later the killer who now has this bloody bat in the bag in hand And the accomplice left through the sliding last door Completely oblivious to all the mistakes they'd made Like for example leaving DNA on the trash can And also taking a cell phone that could be tracked When Detective Vammer got the name of the person whose DNA matched the DNA on the trash can He immediately headed out to make an arrest And where did he go? He went straight to the apartment building where Damon's cell phone had been found But he didn't go to the apartment of Damon's longtime casual romantic partner Todd Daniels Nor did he go to see Rick Larson, the building's custodian who claimed to have found the phone in the dumpster They would turn out both Todd and Rick were completely innocent And so Vammer he went to the apartment of this woman

32:15Whose son was a guy named Matthew Dragna He was 19 years old And his DNA was already in the police database from a previous burglary Matthew and Damon's longtime casual romantic partner Todd They had started hooking up a few weeks before Damon's murder And when Todd went to see Damon on October 21st two days before the murder He brought Matthew with him for a threesome as part of that anonymous sex routine that Damon was known for And while he was there participating in this Matthew the 19 year old took note of Damon's very open lifestyle And the fact that he literally left his door unlocked at night And Matthew saw an opportunity And so Matthew recruited a friend to help him rob the place And the next night they came back And this time when Matthew walked through the sliding glass door of Damon's apartment He found Damon on the couch And immediately he decided to beat him to death

33:17So he would not interfere with the robbery Matthew Dragna was arrested on November 18th 2009 And charged with Damon's murder After a very drawn out legal battle He eventually pled guilty to a lesser charge of manslaughter and burglary And got a final sentence of just over 28 years in prison As for Matthew's accomplice who was a man named Jacob Quintanilla He was also convicted of manslaughter but sentenced to just over seven years in prison A quick note about our stories They are all based on true events But we sometimes use pseudonyms to protect the people involved And some details are fictionalized for dramatic purposes The Mr. Ballin podcast, Strange Dark and Mysterious Stories, is hosted and executive produced by me Mr. Ballin Our head of writing is Evan Allen, produced by Jeremy Bone and Cole Acasio This episode was written by Andrew Kelleyer

34:19Story editing by Luke Baratz Research and fact-checking by Shelley Shoe, Samantha Van Hoos, Evan Beamer, Abigail Shumway, Camille Callahan, Alex Paul, Ben Fassiano Research and fact-checking supervision by Steven Ear Audio editing and post-produced by Whitlacasio and Jordan Stidem Production support by Antonio Manada and Delana Corley Artwork by Jessica Clogston Keiner, theme song, something wicked by Ross Bugden Thank you for listening to the Mr. Ballin podcast And just a reminder, every new and exclusive episode we put out on the Mr. Ballin podcast You can also now watch on the Mr. Ballin YouTube channel that very same day And trust me, some of these stories you truly have to see to believe Again, my YouTube channel is just called Mr. Ballin If you want to listen to episodes one week early and add free You can subscribe to SiriusXM podcast Plus on Apple podcasts Or visit SiriusXM.com slash podcast Plus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice So that's gonna do it. I really appreciate your support

35:21Until next time, see ya