Once Upon a Turtle Time (Beach Sheoak)

0:00Hey everyone, Casey here. I'm about to take off on the year of the cone and I need your help. What is the year of the cone? Well, it's my project of finding every native species of conifer in the United States, all 111 of them all in one year. I decided to take on this project because I wanted to tell their stories and bring attention to the incredible diversity we're lucky to have in our country. And right now, this goal seems more important than ever. The protected areas where many of these trees live are at risk of being lost. And I want to show just how important it is that we don't let that happen. And of course, you know it's going to be a lot of fun along the way. So come be a part of this project by supporting me through patreon.com slash Casey Club, joining the cone club at arbitrarypod.supercast.com or by giving a one-time donation at GoFundMe slash year of the cone. And obviously, you can follow along on social media and YouTube so you don't miss a thing. Again, that's GoFundMe.com slash year of the cone or check out CaseyClap.com for more

1:04information. Thanks everyone. What's up, fungal associates? Welcome to completely arbitrary tree runs. It's the podcast about the podcast about trees and other related topics. I'm Alex Kroeson. That's Casey Clap. Hello, Alex Kroeson. It's good to see you again. It's good to see you, Casey. It is. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Is you hear me? It is good for you to see me. It is. Yeah, welcome. Oh, I'm doing just wonderful. Just, you know, taking it easy, driving through the whole country, spending money on gasoline. Nice. Because you know what? Still expensive. You got to get into writing folk songs. You think so? I think so. What kind of folk songs? Like, I guess I will be bringing a ukulele. You just had your first lyric. Just driving across countries, spending money on gas. Okay. Yeah. This sounds great. I'll send you some of my wave files. You can tell me what you think. Wow. This guy talks the talk. Yeah, that's right. That's right, everyone. I'm in the know now. Wow. He knows about wave files. That's incredible. Well, Casey, we got another episode to talk about

2:10today. We sure do a fun one that you initially were the one to say we need to do this. And you know why? Because you like to hold some goddamn it. You slept on my joke. No, sorry. Why? Do you know why? No. I didn't know that was going to be your joke. That wasn't really joke. That's just the answer. Yeah, it wasn't funny. Oh, okay. We're talking about beat shio. We sure are. Kassarina equicitifolium. Wow. An episode all about, well, it's about a tree, but it's also about turtles. It is. And really, I think turtles is the main the main thing there. What was your takeaway, Casey? You know, I think one one of the takeaways one thing that I particularly liked is that at the end, I was like, I'm going to be a little controversial here. In brought up like I still I still I think that's a valid question. Like why does why does this invasive species up here cause problems, whereas elsewhere it doesn't even though because it's native there, but the same turtles the same everything. Yeah, yeah. But overall, I really like this this kind of discussion talking about the impacts of this tree on the natural system. And also the fact that it's just like such a weird

3:13tree. I still don't understand. Yeah. Like why it has just evolved to be a pine tree. Yeah. Like I still stand by the one of the things that I said, which was if you call this a pine tree, you get a pass. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Everything about it just feels like it is a pine tree. I did make a note that I remember that every part of this is kind of weird. Kind of weird tree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what did you think? I love this episode. Yeah. I wrote down that I sound like I know what I'm talking about. I was like, damn, I'm like, I'm like, I'm getting it. You are. You absolutely, you know, I think at least by this point, yeah, I think you did a great job. Here's my other takeaway. I learned about a turtle. When I say I learned about I googled it and I saw a picture. Okay. Yeah. Now it's my new favorite animal. It's called the Cantor's Giant Soft. You've heard of softshell crabs. Yeah. This is a softshell turtle. Cantor's C-A-N-T-O-R. Okay. Giant softshell turtle.

4:14One of the coolest, weirdest, most uncomfortable looking animals I've ever seen. Whoa. Yeah. It looks like a cross between a turtle and a hippopotamus. And I don't know what else. A boogie board. Yeah. I suppose it really does. It looks like it looks like a lump of flesh. Yes. What is the the the flat guy's like a manta ray? It looks like it looks like that. Totally. But the the back end is actually the front end and it's got a face and flippers. Damn. What a what a burn. Yeah. Yeah. Back end looks like a front end. I'm going home. It's paddle paddle paddle paddle paddle paddle. Yeah. What there's also there's a kind of frog. It looks like this. It's a species of frog that lives just underwater. Like it's just a 100% aquatic frog. Wow. But it looks just like this. Like it just looks like a weird flat, flabby looking thing with the funny little face. It's kind of pushed in. At the moments like these, I'm like, wow, evolution really sometimes doesn't do such a great job. Yeah.

5:16It does. It does the job. What brought this turtle up for you? This particular one. I wish I could remember. Okay. God dammit. Why can't I remember how? Sometimes it just happens that way, buddy. Because I don't think we mentioned it in the episode. I don't believe we did. No. I've heard of this before. All right. Well, we hope we hope that you enjoy this turtle episode. Everybody. Oh, did you have any other notes? Casey? No, I didn't. I think this was I like this episode. I still don't know why it is called the shiok that still blows my mind. So no, I think I think re listening to this, I think my take away was, okay. Yeah. I agree. So, okay. So I don't have any changes for it. I think I did a good job. A timeless episode. This is a timeless episode. That's exactly right. So enjoy it, everybody. But before you do, we got to tell you about the cone club, arbitrary pod dot supercast.com ARBOR TRY pod dot supercast.com. It is a sticker club. It is the sticker club. I'd say here's what happens. You sign up and then every month

6:17starting the following month, you get in your mailbox and your snail mailbox, an actual physical sticker designed illustrated by an independent artist printed locally here in Portland, packed by hand by Casey and I sent to you every month. It's incredible. And each one comes a little info card that will tell you something about that species. That's right. And on top of that, you get access to all the older cones. You get 20% off everything on our store. You get access to ad free listens. It's really, it's really delight. And of course, all the things that we're doing this year, they're going to be pushed out right through that sub-scription service. Hell yeah. So go join and then get access to all the cool things that we're doing and all the cool stuff that we've done before. Wow. Casey, well said. Thank you. All in one take. All in one take. All right, everybody. Joy this, enjoy this she oak episode and we'll see you on the other side. Bye. What's going on, everyone? It's Casey here. And as you probably know, I live in the back of my truck. I have one drawer that is filled to the brim with all the clothes that I could ever need for

7:21this trip. That means all of my pants, all my shorts, all my socks, all my sweaters, sweatshirts, and coats have to fit right in there. So of course, I don't have room for anything but the best, which is why if you dig through there, you are going to find so many things from Quince. Quince is my favorite shop to get high quality wardrobe staples, especially while I'm living out here in the road. I'm literally wearing a pair of shorts that I got from quince.com and I had no idea how much I love them. I have worn them so many times that you'd think I've had them forever. Their materials are high quality made of things like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and marina wool. I was stunned that when I went to their website and found that I could pack my cart filled with everything I needed and wanted and still come out under budget. Then when everything got delivered, I was stunned again about how well they fit, how comfortable they were, and how much I use them to this day. Now, fall is coming up, which means you're looking for some new clothes. Maybe it's time to get that cool sweater you always wanted. Maybe you got a kid that's going back to school and you want to freshen up that wardrobe. Either way, now is the time. You can find your next fall favorites at

8:27Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash trees. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now it's available in Canada and the UK too. That's quinc.com slash trees. What's going on, everyone? It's Casey here. I am sitting in the force of the Southern Cascades here in beautiful Oregon. I am on the Year of the Cone. As you know, of course, the Year of the Cone means that I'm going out trying to find every species of conifer here in the US. But did you know that down in Mexico, there are a heap of amazing trees. Well, it turns out I might get the opportunity to go see some I know extracurricular in terms of finding all the trees in the US. But how could I say no to an opportunity like going to Baja California in the middle of winter time? Now in preparation of potentially going south of the border, I picked up my trusty babble to get learning me some Spanish. You know, babble. It is the language app for anyone who's really serious about learning a new language. If you're traveling this summer, it's the thing to pick up not then,

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10:36Today we are talking the beach shi-oak. Attorney at law is the joke that I've said three times before. We have some interesting stories to tell today. Yes, we do. I think it's going to be a fun episode because we got a good smat. We got a good shark-hootery board of kind of facts and feelings today. Yeah. And we're talking about turtles. We are. We're talking about turtles ultimately, but as I was reading through here, I'm like, oh, there's way more than turtles here. Sure. It is not turtles all the way down. It is not turtles all the way down. It actually only goes maybe a foot or two down. And then after that, it's a lot of different. Two feet of turtles and then sand and soil. And then mostly sand and soil for the rest of it. And then you hit the water bed. And then everything's just salty, briny. Kasey. Yes, Alex. She oak. She oak. Otherwise, for those of you who may not be familiar, the Australian pine, which of all the trees that you would call

11:39pine, this is probably the one where I'm like, okay, pass. I give you a pass on this. Really? Because it truly honestly does look like a pine. Yeah. I will throw shade at no one who decides that they're like this, this is gotta be a pine. I see. It's even got a cone-like thing that looks like a cone. It does. It doesn't look anything like a pine cone. I don't know. But to the untrained eye, I think it does. Exactly. I completely concur. In fact, when I initially saw this, because I've actually seen this tree a few different times. The first time was in, he was in the Philippines on a island called Zimbales or an area called Zimbales. And I was like, what is this? Like, I just had no clue. I was convinced it was a conifer until I found this little cone and then a boss of mine whose family is from more tropical places years ago in Seattle. I saw the little cone-like

12:40fruiting structure and I was like, oh, it's that tree. Wow. And it is, like, it's just, it's such an interesting tree. Casey, as we do every episode, let's imagine that you and I are walking along the beaches of Key Whadon Islands. Where are these? These are in Florida. Oh. Southern Florida on the western side. The western side. Okay. So we're going to come back to these islands later in the episode. This is the Gulf side of the Florida Peninsula. That's right. Okay. On the Gulf side of town. All right. And we come across some beach-cheoaks, slash Australian pine. Let's ID this tree. Let's do it. Now, a quick note on a scientific name. I read the pronunciation here as being, cause you are Rhea. Cause you are Rina.

13:41Um, which is fun to say. Now, I have always pronounced this Casurina. But apparently it's Casurina. Casurina? Yes. So it's like C-A-S-U-A-R-I-N-A. So when I read that, I kind of just jammed the U-A-R-R all together. So it would be Casurina. A Cessafolia? No. That is Equicity Folia. Equicitfolia. Equicitfolia? Yes. And I'll tell you why. God. I know. It's the, it's not a bad name, but it's one you just have to like figure out and remember how to pronounce. I guess. It's no, it's no medicecoagliptic streboides. It is. Yeah. That, that, that flows perfectly. It's, it's, it's, it's like a mountain stream. It's so pure. This is clunky. This is a little more clunky. So the, the, the specific epithet comes from Equicitum, which is what Pliny the Elder called a horse tail, like a literal tail of a horse. Right. So we have a plant that we call horse tail that is a small

14:42little ancient species of an herb that grows up in like wetland kind of areas. Yeah. And we call it horse tail scientific name for that is Equicitum. Uh-huh. So this is Equicity Folia, which is the Equicitum like leaves of this Casurina. Wow. Yes. Which, it again, spectacular name, like it just makes so much sense when you look at the leaves or what you think are the leaves. It looks just like Equicitum. So Equicity, Equicity Folia, Equicitifolia. This name is like a reference to a reference. Yes. Which is, in my opinion, the best names because you, you trace them, you know? You're like, yeah, I suppose that's kind of fun. This tree, when you look at it, you're like, oh, these leaves look like horse tail. Oh, it's the horse tail like tree. So it makes sense. Okay. No, or it's a scientific name that is a reference to a reference to a reference, but that reference is it all

15:43makes sense. It does make sense. I don't love it. That's fair. That's fair. I don't want to start on a negative note. But you know what? Minus one. It's not very sad of me. So I'm going to say Casarina because Casuaraina just seems clunkier. So I'm just going to smash that together and you know what? Whatever. Come at him. Yeah. Thank you. Well, let's talk about the, let's talk about the overall morphology of this tree, KC. Yeah. Alex, I am glad you asked. Oh boy. It's a tree that grows apparently can get up to 175 feet tall, which is pretty stunning. That's a, that's like 45 meters. And I'm blown away by that. I had no idea that it could get that tall. It's big old tree. It feels like it should not get that tall. But apparently it does in the right circumstances. And it also tends to have a, a flat top crown because the, it's a, it's a not a conifer. I should, we should note this route of the bat. It looks like a pine. Tis not a pine. It is actually in the juggling

16:44days, or juggling dayals, I believe. So it's this, it is in a group that includes the oaks and the birches and the jugglands as well as all the myrtles. Walnuts. So this is a, this is an angiosperm. It is an angiosperm. Hell yes, Alex. Well done. So the fact that it generally has a single stem and looks like a pine tree is just superficial. It will have branches that are lateral that grow up and end up growing a little bit faster than the main stem. So it kind of develops this broader, flat top canopy as it gets older. But the whole form of the tree is very frilly, very feathery, very wispy looking because it has these long needle-like growths that are photosynthetic. So it looks like you have this needle tree growing up that just looks like a bunch of palm palms on top of palm palms on top of palm palms. Now would you call those leaves? I would not. This is interesting. And here's why. The leaves of this tree are actually like a millimeter or two,

17:51and they are world at these little sections along branches and these branches are photosynthetic. They have in the cuticle of the branch tissue the green that we think to ourselves, this is a leaf. But it's not. The leaves are at these joints. So one of the things about Equisitum, about horse tail, is that it is jointed where it grows up and then there's like a joint, then it grows up, then there's a joint, then it grows up. Often they have these leaves that come out, the Equisitum Equisitum does. So it has this kind of like this interesting appearance where it's like a central stem with these layers of leaves coming out and then goes up, then another layer of leaves, then it goes up, then another layer of leaves. You know what I'm talking about? You've seen these kind of horse tails? Yeah, I think so. It kind of looks like they have a little, like they're almost like skeleton arms. Yes, yeah. And it looks like if you have an umbrella, but you take all the fabric

18:54of the umbrella on the way and then you just put another umbrella on top, then another one on top, then another one on top. Right. So the curious thing is that the leaves are really teeny tiny. They're essentially these scale-like bits that don't do a damn thing. Okay. They are completely minimized while the photosynthetic ability is put into the stem of these little branchlets. So the branchlets come out and then there's this little ring of leaves that I think I've read anywhere from six to 10 to four to 20. So there could be a significant amount of these little teeny tiny leaves that are world. They just go in this little circle and then there's another growth and that is kind of the little branchlet, the little twig covered in green and they have little tiny ridges in it with little tiny hairs in the middle of these. They're really weird. Like why they decided to go this route? No idea. Can I say though that those needle-like roads? Yeah.

19:56I think I would effectively call those the leaves. Now this is a really interesting question, because do you remember our discussion of the cyedoppities, the umbrella pine, where they had those claydodes where it looks like a leaf, but it is actually the same exact thing. It's a branch, a branch tissue that comes out that does a photo synthesis. Oh right, yeah sure. So they call those claydodes as opposed to leaves because the leaves were these teeny tiny little things that again were just like for all intents and purposes ignored evolutionarily. So I guess, and this is where I'm with you, this looks so much like a pine that you would say those are just the leaves. Those are doing the things that these are doing, but technically speaking, we're looking for the bud. The bud is not at the base of the branchlets. They're at the base of these little teeny tiny leaves that are so completely minimized. They're just not doing anything. So these these grotes, these claydodes are

20:59performing, no these are not claydodes. These are not claydodes. I looked and I have seen nothing that says these are claydodes. They're just branches that are doing photosynthesis. I think they are performing the roles of the CEO. Yeah, they are essentially the CEO, but very fair on paper, those little world, yes, millimeter long things are the exactly. I know no one really thinks about this, but it's just like the end of the Western Roman Empire Alex. Oh wow, tell me more cases. Well, you know, all the importers were just puppets. They didn't do anything, but on paper, they were in control. Interesting. Really, it was the behind the scenes generals doing all the work. Oh, so I think that that's really I think you're 100% right. Okay, so I think from now on, we're just going to call them the leaves by accident because we're probably just going to call them the leaves. Yeah, they're lowercase L leaves. Yeah, it's exactly. Let's talk bark case. The bark is also an interesting kind of thing. It is shaggy and somewhat fibrous, but it also kind of pops off

22:05as if it is like a a shag bark hickory or something like that. It does look very coniferous. Yeah, so it's like it's popping off, but it's not. So it looks like this mix between a juniper and a hickory. Yeah, a shag bark specifically where the branch or the bark is kind of popping off. Yeah, it's kind of bell bottom shape, but I think it's so fascinating. It's just kind of it does a little bit of both and it's kind of reddish gray kind of brownish gray like it depends on the age of the tree. It looks nice, but it doesn't really do a whole lot. Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, I don't think it's very fire resistant. I think it'll just kind of fire will affect it and kill the tree, but they often sprout from the base again if you don't completely kill off the roots and everything. Not so much. That's a little bit of a foreshadowing. Oh, it is. Oh, very much so, but there's really three species. One species, I think it's the casterina cunninghamia. That one is way more likely to sprout, whereas there's another one called casterina glauca. That one doesn't sprout as much, nor do the one that we're talking about today, equicid folium. Interesting. So they apparently will, if you

23:11give them a chance, they generally, there are ours will not, but they have a really intense fibrous root system that's very shallow. So they grow out and another thing to note, the morphology doesn't really show this very much, but apparently they can take the worst possible conditions, grow totally fine, and then they'll just get knocked over as soon as wind comes. Right. Which has got a funny. Like, I just, they're a super tough tree. It sounds like in every regard until you, like a wind comes and then just like, oh, it's just peel over. It's like one of those western town movies facade. Exactly. Yeah. Like you get a strong breeze and the whole thing just kind of topples. Yeah. They do have, I will say, you know, you shouldn't judge a tree by its bark. Sure. But so to speak, but looking at this tree, I'm like, this is a, this is a flimsy beach tree. You know what is so curious about this? B-E-A-C-H. Oh, yes. Okay. Good. Good call. Because I think

24:17it's also very closely related. Now, funny thing, Alex, did you happen to find the jank of hardness of this? Wow. You know, I didn't look into a case to do. So I didn't. I, well, I, I did, but I couldn't find it for this species. Interesting. But I have read multiple places that the wood is so strong, it will ruin saws. Wow. Like it apparently, if you want to cut it down, you need to cut it down and then chop it into, or cut it into small firewood before it gets dried out. Because once it gets dried out, it's one of the hardest wood, woods around. Wow. That's kind of shocking. It is amazingly shocking. I guess if wind blows these trees over really easily, they're, they're coming out like roots first. Exactly. They're not breaking in half. Precisely. Yeah. So I just thought that it's like such an interesting thing. That's very odd. It really just kind of will come into our discussion of this tree in a little bit. Because it just seems like from, from one side, this tree's awesome,

25:22from the other side, everyone hates this tree. Yes. And I just am kind of like, okay, so I'm just, I have whiplash from looking back. Tennis match. Exactly. Yeah. Kasey, I want to talk about the flower and then the quote, comb. Oh, thank you for putting the quotes on. Yeah. This flower, it's, it's our trees, a monitious tree. Most of the other species are dieticists. So they have male trees and female trees or rather trees that have the pistolet versus trees that have the stamina flowers. Monitious being that they have both. Precisely. Yeah. So these are the male flowers, the, the ones that produce the pollen. Those are like little cackens, they're yellow, maybe an inch or so long. Look very, very similar to all the other trees that they're related to, your oaks and your, your walnuts, that kind of thing. But the pistolet flowers, the ones that we generally call the female flowers, they have the ova inside. They, to me, I think the best way to say it, Alex, is they look like

26:28one of those little troll dolls, yeah, sure. But the troll has been going bald for like a couple years. So it's hair is very thin. It's coming out. It's very kind of wiery. I can see that. Yeah, it looks like, have you, have you ever seen a baby, like a brand new born that has like really like stringy hair, like it's hair just has not quite quite come in. Yes. But it's also not like a nice full head of hair. It's kind of like, yeah, that's a little alien line. That's the hair that's going to fall out before the real hair grows. I think that that is what this looks like. Except it's red, like it's this gorgeous kind of roomy color. And it's, it's just, you know, it looks like these fun little things. It actually looks to me a lot like a beach, a true beach flower. And it ends up growing into these little tiny inch, maybe three quarter of an inch capsule or like clusters of capsules they call just a seed head. Yeah, it's like an aggregate of capsules.

27:28It looks like it. Yeah. And then it pops open. As it pops open, it releases these little winged seeds that they constantly call samaras. But I just, I just don't think botanically that's correct. Why not? Because a samara is itself the whole thing. This is a samara that is coming from a capsule that opens up. Yeah. So I don't think that I mean, it's hard to put all these things in boxes. But I think botanically speaking, this is not a samara. This is just a winged seed. Because, okay, because the capsule would have to be the samara because it contains. Precisely. Yes. So they, those two things would have to be fused together. Yes. And then there would be a wing that comes off of that. Right. So that would be my botanical non-expert opinion. Okay. So if anyone else has any idea about this, please send it my way because I just am not convinced that it is a true samara. I think it's a winged seed. This is like a tree of lies. This is like. It seems like it. The trickster god of trees. But also you got to give it credit

28:32because it's a tree that like has completely done all that. Like it's tricked so many different people into calling it a different thing. It also like just does things. It just, I don't it's like a platypus. Like it just is. It does not fit any like really good description. And like if you saw this in like a fossil record, I feel like people would be like, what the hell is this? What is it related to? It definitely looks like a prehistoric plant. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the horse tailness of it all. Right. Very true. But yeah, it's, it, I mean, it even has a crisis of identity taxonomically. It totally does. Yeah. They used to be all castorine, a hundred species now. It's in four different families. Wow. So it's a, it's very much has gone through some transitions. And obviously we call it shioq is a very common name. Funny enough. Apparently, it's called that because the wood is so hard. So the oaks of Europe would be, I guess, I don't know where the she came from. I, I, I assume so. Yeah. So it's like, there's the oaks of Europe

29:38in this as well as the she oak. It's, it's like one of those oaks, but it's the she version. Wow. So I don't really understand it. And I saw some things like, the terminology's ambiguous. It's why we call it that. We really need to cover more. They them oaks. Representation is very important. So such a stupid joke. I know, but I'm glad you said it because that's a, that's a funny joke in our, our moment in time. It didn't help that you were taking a drink of water when I said it and the punchline flopped. Oh, geez. Hi, I'm Beck Bennett. I thought I was Beck Bennett. No, no, no, no, it's all good. All good. All good. Thanks, buddy. Yeah. And we host the show. What's our podcast here on head gum? This podcast is brought to you. Bye. Squares, bang. Squares, is the all-no-one website platform designed to help you stand out and make you look like a kick-ass person online like your skateboard or through the internet or you're like, you're surfing through the web. Squares, basically, gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand and get paid

30:41all in one place. I like that it's all in one place. I know. I like that I don't have to go around, you know, like different stores or something. It's just all my life. Well, it's like, oh, do I need to go to like, oh, do I need another type of website to like find the right pictures or to like another type of website to upload the all in one place? The video or the audio or like, no, I want it makes it easy. Make it easy on me, please. Yeah, so you can do all those things, photos, videos, changing fonts. You know, being the designs are amazing. They're catering to all your different needs. They're SEO tools, which I know what those are and they're custom domains. Oh, what's come up with a domain right now? Let's see who wanted for it exists. www.friendsmedin. Friends. Friends meeting friends.com. That's an original thing that we came up with friends meeting friends. Anyway, so check out squarespace.com slash Edgum for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code headgum save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hell, sounds easy. Anybody could do it.

31:43So those are the parts of this wild little pine oak thing. Right. And know what is curious about this tree to add another layer of platypusnisch to it. Wow. Platypusnisch. It is, it has in it, rather, in its roots, it has franquia. That is, if you recall, the bacteria that lives in the root nodules of alders and some other species of trees. Yes. So it is a nitrogen fixer. It will put nitrogen back in the soil where nitrogen is lacking. So it can grow in some of the worst areas, like the quote unquote baron wastelands. It will grow in those places because it can get essentially its own important nutrients either from the air or from these little nodules in its roots. Wow. So put that on the plus side. It will rehabilitate soil that has no nitrogen in it. It's kind of an impressive resume so far. Isn't it? I would look at this resume and be like,

32:47I got to meet this guy. Yeah. Okay. At least you're curious, right? Yeah. Well, so another thing about this tree is that it is native to it grows in kind of the south Pacific. And the the range land is hard to discern because it has spread a lot because it grows right on the edge of the ocean. It's very, very salt tolerant. It will grow in sand in these places where sometimes high tide will come and cover the roots in the base of the tree. Like it really extreme high tides. What does salt do to a tree that's not salt tolerant? It essentially dehydrates it. So it will suck out all of the water and cause it to die. Also, I think it will poison it just because it will cause the cells to be way out of balance in terms of their salt content. So it'll either suck it out or it'll push it all in and it essentially just causes dehydration. Wow. Just like us, huh? Yeah. Pretty similar to us. Yeah. Just like us. Don't drink saltwater, everyone. It's really bad for you.

33:47Yeah. I mean, I don't think we have to say that. Casey, well, now will be a good time for my turtle tail. I would love that. But one thing that I think I should note before before you get into the turtle tail is that this tree growing where it grows was spread throughout the world to do some very specific things. So it is as we've noted, it fixes nitrogen. It grows in where where we would consider a place to be barren. This tree grows, which I should note means it's not barren. Fair plan. There's an alpine trees. It's an oxymoron. Alpine means there are no trees. It's above tree line. So it's like, okay, if there are trees there, it's not alpine. If there are plants and things growing, it's not barren. Also, I don't really like the term barren because I think it actually is relating to a woman who's unable to have children. Yes. So a woman is barren because she is not fertile. So land that's not fertile is also barren. It's

34:49like, don't know which one came first. It's sexist. Yes. Exactly. And this is, we're going to talk about this. It's on our agenda. Has been for some time, but botanical, not botanical sexism. We've covered that way too many times. Yeah. This is eco-feminism. Oh, fun. Yes. It's very, it's a very interesting topic. We're not going to even talk about it here, but barren in the terminology that we use for women and for natural things. There's a correlation there. And ships. Exactly. Oh, and for like all so many things. Yeah. I don't understand that. Countries. Mother of the motherland. Other than Germany. Germany is the fatherland. That's right. The fjure. Yeah. Which is, it's isn't an ironic also that most of these entire places that call their, their land, she, are patriarchal societies. Right. Go through the man. That is interesting. Anyway, this is literally going to be a topic we're going to cover sometimes soon. So we're not, we can't dive too far into it. So anyway, the other thing about this is that they got planted in these places because people wanted to either do one of a few things. Stop erosion. Which oceans are

35:55very good at eroding beach land. It's what they do. They've done it for a long time, but they also put sand back. So we tried to stop that. So we planted these trees and grew them along beaches and a little bit further inland where the sand or the soil is very sandy and very rough. So these trees not only put nitrogen back in the soil, which is good for the soil, they also are able to be wind breaks. They're also able to help stop erosion. At least that's what we thought. I'm assuming that there's root structures are very hairy and thick and matt as so perfect. Very well determined. Yes. What is the word I'm looking for? Very well done. Alex, thanks. So, but that's the thing. So where the turtles come in? We're going to talk about a second. Oh yeah. It's almost turtle time. It's almost turtle time. Everyone get out of your shells. Get out of your shells. We planted all these trees in all of these areas where we humans wanted to

36:58stop the natural processes from happening. Because we had a new different use for it. Maybe that's our own land use choices. We have a house and we don't want our land to literally go into the ocean. Or maybe we're like, wow, there's just all these dunes over here. We got to settle those wild things down, plant a tree on it. And this happened. So in their native area in Australia, for example, they're like protected trees. Really? Yeah. They are one of the, there's an evolutionary partnership with them and a black cockatoo that they eat a lot of the seeds. That's right. So in other invasive places where there are invasive parrots and cockatooes and parrots, it's other birds. They eat the seeds, all these little minute seeds. And so there's this partnership between certain birds and these trees. They also are in their native area very good at putting these nitrogens and these soils back in. So they have all these things that when you take them to a

37:58different location are really bad. In their home are really good. That's very curious. Yeah. It's it's almost a reverse Superman. Oh, yeah, you have superpowers on their home planet. Yes. You put them on earth and they're debilitated. It's so good. Yeah, on earth they're just an ecological skirmish. So it becomes a liability. Yeah. So all that to say, they have this weird effect on turtle habitat. Yes. And Alex, you wanted to do this tree initially because you're like, I want to talk about turtles. Casey, I think I have an idea for a tree. And I'm like, I know exactly what tree you're talking about. This is going to be great. So off to you, Alex, tell us about these turtles. So okay, here's I want to give a little bit of a preempt here. I know you shouldn't you shouldn't preempt things. You should just go into it. Don't don't give disclaimers. If you're about to perform, sorry, everybody. I have a cold. And then you perform and everybody's like, yeah, he sounds like shit. Yeah, you just got to go and have everyone assume that that was

38:59a specific choice you made. That creative, a creative decision. Having said that, I found one source on this story, Casey. Yeah. I could not find anything about it anywhere else. And this source reads and plays like a high school ecology. Yeah. Like textbook video, you know, go to the website to see more. And it's like, it's so fucking boring. And you just, you feel like you're dying watching it. That's what this is. But that's a very interesting story. Well, the good news is I found a little bit more. And I know that you also did. Well, sort of I found more about I just, I kind of went down a turtle hole as one does and found some interesting things about loggerhead turtles that I'm excited to talk about. And that is I found the same stuff. Oh, wonderful. I am not going to tell a graph. I like what I found. Oh, or rather a finding that's going to cause just

39:59so much controversy. Oh, I love a controversy. Oh, let's talk turtles, maybe. All right, it's officially turtle time. Okay. So once upon a time, Casey, turtle time, this group of loggerhead turtles found its home on the beaches of Keywaitin Island. And if you look at the map, he waiting is like a really long island. It's almost like, you know, I think Island, I think like a blob in the middle of the water. This is like a little, this is like an island by proxy, or it's just like a strip of land, a little water between it and the mainland. They call those barrier islands. Okay. Yeah. I think it's that. Yeah. God knows why people live on this thing. Right next to the Gulf of Mexico, I mean, it seems like a terrible idea. Yeah. I some people are, I guess they like this. I don't know. You want to live on your own island? I guess. Yeah. Well, people have their ideas. Yeah. So people live on this island, Casey. But so do turtles, loggerhead turtles.

41:04Yeah. Very quickly, the scientific name for loggerhead turtles is Coretta Coretta. What? And I wanted to say this is Bob Dylan's favorite sea animal. Why? Karina Karina. Okay. This is Coretta Coretta. This is Coretta Coretta. Honestly, what is that? That is, I had no idea. Yeah. It's one of those. It's one of those so nice to name it twice. I love those. All the wallets. So easy. Yeah. So loggerhead turtles, beautiful animals. They look like a sea turtle. They've got these big keratin beaks. Yeah. And they consider beaks, Casey. I think that's a perfectly fine description. They certainly look like beaks. They feel like beaks. Hey, if it quacks like a duck, right? Yeah. If it quacks like a duck, it might be a turtle. It might be a turtle's beak. They are, this was interesting. They're carnivores. Yes. So they just like crunch through crabs and shit. Yeah. That's the beak. Yes. That's the beakness of it all. So these loggerhead turtles found

42:08a home on this keyway in island. Yeah. The way turtles are born is really interesting, Casey. Yeah. So the mother turtle, let's start from like kind of the middle. Yeah. The mother turtle lays eggs in a hole in the sand. Yeah. And they climb up out of the water. Yes. onto the beach, like above the tide line. Yes. Yeah. And they lay their precious little soft eggs. It's kind of, it's, they're not really like, they're not really like chicken eggs where it has like a hard shell. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're really soft looking. Yeah. That's, I've seen that like it's, it's another reptile thing where their eggs are not like calcified. Yes. Yeah. They're like membrane. Exactly. Contained. They lay their eggs. They put, put, put, put, put, put, put some sand on top. They sit on top of it like a rooster or like a hand. Excuse me. Or just like, how dare you? And then you know, some time passes and the eggs hatch. That's, that's all normal. So do the loggerheads stay or do the, the, the mothers go back into the

43:11ocean? That I don't know. Okay. Do you know? I think they go back into the ocean. Yeah. While the eggs hang. Exactly. Okay. They don't, they don't protect them. It's, it's one of those, what is it? K specialist? Is the K? It's like a number over. Yes. What is it? Quantity over quality here? Yeah. Exactly. Throw and shit at the wall. That's a nice respectful way to put it. So the way I described this is a K reproductive system. They just throw shit at the wall and hope some of you sticks and carry on their germline. So, uh, moving on. Yeah. A few weeks later you got some turtles. Uh, so the baby turtles. They come out they, like, do do do. They're out of the ocean. They have like crawl out of this hole. I've seen videos of this where they just kind of like immerse. It's wild. They swim through the sand to the, the surface. Yeah. Crazy. And you know, um, as is C K, uh, what is it called, K selection? Yeah. Okay, reproductive strategy. Yeah. Productive strategy, a lot of these little baby turtles do not make it to the water.

44:12They perish in the hot suns, very sad. But the ones that do, Casey, this was my most fascinating find. Hold on, we're doing this backwards. It's R. I should have checked this before. Oh, shit. Our selected species, they have shorter life spans and they essentially just throw shit at the wall. Many young and they just let them go. Let's keep it as it is to show that even experts make mistakes. Oh, thank you. Not experts in turtles. Yeah, we read this somewhere else. Not this is big mistakes. So the baby turtles that do make to the water, something really fascinating happens. They call it the lost years. What? There's a chunk of time between the baby turtles hatching and the baby turtles returning, the juvenile turtles returning to feed. There's this chunk of time. They don't know where they go.

45:13It's very hard to track baby turtles, Casey. I don't know if you've ever tried. No, there's something similar to this with like eels. We're like thousands of eels from across the ocean all go down into some giant hole and then they come out having made it with new eels. Yes. And nobody really knows what they do. They're called the lost years. That's so interesting. How many years? How long is it? I don't know, Casey. Wow. But it says lost years. I'm assuming it's maybe it's years. That's so cute. I know it takes like 25 years for them to get sexually mature. Yes. So interesting. They just disappear. They go into the great ocean. They great beyond. Yeah. They go on their room spring and they come back as young men and women. That is so fascinating. Having had their first sip of alcohol and their first television show. Good for them. So they little babies come back after their last years. They've grown up eared. They're now they have political opinions. Yeah. Got weirdly conservative.

46:14On the east coast where our story takes place, there's an area called the Sargasum Sea or Sargasum. It's a type of seaweed. Yeah. And that's where a lot of these turtles go to just like feast and grow. Yeah. I'm sure it is a hey day for predators. Seems like a nice place though. Yeah. So once they're fully grown, they head back to where they were born in order to mate. Oh, okay. Yeah. And the whole process starts over again. Beautiful. And here's a fun little, here's a fun little tidbit, Casey. They are temperature dependent sex-determinated. Yes. And that is the crux of like this whole conversation. Yes. I love it. Fascinating. So in this little turtle egg hole, as we'll call it, turtle egg hole. The egg in the hole like the toast. If the turtles incubate below 82.4 degrees Fahrenheit, the hatchlings will most likely all

47:21be male. Okay. So if the eggs incubate at 89.6 degrees Fahrenheit, above 89.6 degrees Fahrenheit, they'll mostly be female. Wow. So somewhere in the middle, you're going to get a mix. Okay. So if it's between those 82 and 89. Yeah, 82.5 and 89.5 essentially. Okay. You're going to get a mix of male and female. Gotcha. That's the optimal kind of half and half. I suppose so for continuing your lineage, that would be sort of like ideal situation, right? Exactly. Yeah. This, this, this, do you know the phrase that turtle researchers have? No, Alex Timmy. The phrase because of this temperature dependent sex determination, the phrase is cool dudes and hot chicks. Yeah. All right. Man, what undergrad thought of that one? I love it. It's one of those wood wide web things, you know, it's just so perfect and you like kind

48:24of roll your eyes at it and you go actually it is, it does make sense. It is perfect in a great way to remember this. Cool dudes, hot chicks. That's right, Casey. So, so silly. Which may be the name of the episode. We'll see. Yeah, we'll find out. So that is that when we are referring to this tree, that's one of the things, right? People have talked about where they shade the beaches. Oh, wow, making it cooler. Yes. Making it more likely that loggerhead turtles will give birth to males. Exactly. Cool dudes. Cool dudes, underneath the shade of these trees. Wow. The other thing though is that like you noted, they have these really intense fibers root systems so that they, the, the, the adults that are about to lay the eggs, they are not able to actually dig down because I don't know if you've ever seen a sea turtle dig a hole, but it's one of those things that has to be some anachronism from millions of years ago where they are so inept. They're doing the best they can. Oh my God, it's like you and I going to the beach, taking our shoes off and digging a

49:26hole with the tops of our feet. Like why? Oh, that's so amazing. I guess it's good that they're still going for it, but my God, they are so ill equipped for the task. It is, you just, you kind of just want to put your hand on their shoulder and say, you know, there's a better way. Yeah, I can help. Let me help you. You better figure out a better way to do this. Yeah. So this key, this key, a key weight in island casing, as you, as you mentioned, as you alluded to earlier, the foreshadowing bit that these trees are planted in order to create a windbreak. Right. Well, at least they used to now, they're just growing. They are so horrifyingly invasive, specifically in southern Florida. Yes. Well, this, this, that's, that's where they, the residents of this island were like, hey, this, this will do. Yeah. Let's plant these along the coast. Exactly. That'll keep our houses from literally getting destroyed by the sea. That's right. However, in doing so, they literally destroyed the turtles habitat. Oh, naturally. For the reasons you gave, you know, makes everything cooler, the root systems take up the space

50:30that they need to dig the soil, which is already a, a arduous task for these little, yeah, funny guys. And also, Casey, the first windstorm that came along, yeah. I mean, it's southern Florida. There's a, they, they generally call the windstorms hurricane down there. Yeah. Yeah. The first big ass windstorm that came through, knocked over all these flintzy trees and made it nigh impossible for the little baby turtles to reach the water. Yeah. And it fucked up the ecosystem so bad. That is just, it's crazy. This is just literally at this point, a physical obstruction, right? Yes. Yeah. It's, it's a big shit ton of, a big pile of wood laying on the beach and you are a baby turtle and you go, I need to get over there. Yeah. That's the ocean. I hear it. I'm following the reflection of the moon.

51:31It's right over there. That was not how it works. I think so. Yeah. On buildings, the turtles end up going the wrong direction. Oh. Yeah. Oh, there's some documentaries that are really sad. I don't even want to talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. We definitely should not talk about little turtles crossing freeways. Yeah. Oh my God. Stop that. It's horrifying. By not talking about it, you were talking about it. Yeah. I kind of did that. So sorry. So the residents, I mean, I mean, maybe not the residents case. I think in the story, it says it was like a group of, um, uh, conservationists or bio rehabilitators or something. Yeah. Okay. Um, said, hey, hey, guys, you are completely fucking things up for these loggerhead turtles. They were here first. Please, sorry. Please stop. Yes. Step off. So they came in. They removed the debris from these, uh, beet sheoaks and they started planting, uh, native plants. Um, because one of the big problems was that these beet sheoaks just exploded in population

52:34and then took over the whole beach. And I should add to this, I've read that they're also alilopathic. Wow. So they shade things. They throw down a lot of litter and they also chemically alter their environment so that they are by far the only thing that grows in any regard that is healthier, happy in this area. This is a, well, I'll come back to that. I have an idea about that. So they started planting native plants, um, kind of rehabilitated the region. Yeah. And a year later, turtle populations came, started to come back a little bit. There you go. It happened pretty fast, man. What? I, it feel like it could. I mean, if one or two, because it's on like a 20 year, you know, lag. Yeah. So the newly minted adults are now coming back to this area. Right. Imagine if they, if they catch it, maybe in the next few years, there's going to be a dip after they do their work because everything that happened or all the generations that

53:38didn't quite make it in their full strength prior to removing all that stuff, those are going to be lagged by another 20 years. You know what I mean? Oh, wow. Okay. But every, but it happens every year. There are new babies every year. Yeah. And the babies don't properly, if their population is reduced. I got it. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So according to this one source, things are becoming back to normal and healthy environment for the turtles. Which is so great. I mean, that one source, that one spot, that's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Like they basically say, do this, change it, and then he had an immediate effect. Yeah. It happens a lot with salmon as well. Like if you get rid of a dam on a certain river, then the salmon very next year are going up and like repopulating this spot that used to be completely devoid of salmon because this dam was in the way. They also, salmon-linked turtles are one of those animals that return to its place of birds.

54:39Exactly what I thought. To me, yeah. Now, so here's a question. Because I found same exact adage of hot chicks and cool dudes. Yeah. Now, this was from a, I think it was an MPR interviewer or story from 2022. Okay. And they noted that the sea turtles are having more issues because they have too many hot chicks because of climate change. Oh, wow. So there are more hotter beaches in southern Florida because there's no trees there. Let's just say this is a fine habitat. But the sand is getting beat by hotter heat. So therefore, there are more hot chicks and less cool dudes. I mean, hey, sounds alright to me, buddy. Spring break, baby. We're going.

55:39I was a joke. No, it's a serious problem. So here's my controversial take. These, you have on one side an invasive tree that's making it so there's more cool dudes. But on the other side, where you get rid of the tree, you get too many hot chicks. Well, what are we going to do? Yeah, it's like putting, well, that was like putting a bandaid on a cut that you didn't have yet. And then you took the bandaid off and you got a cut and you say, see, I needed that bandaid. Exactly. So, but here's, you know what, they ended with, I think it was in the same article. Though they said that the turtles actually have a very strong survival instinct. So in order to now find the right conditions, their land eggs and they found it so recently as high as New Jersey. Wow. Have you ever thought of New Jersey as a sea turtle tropical wonderland? I do now. Yeah, yeah. I'm a climate change, huh?

56:41Yeah. So, I am so curious about this tree because in all these places, it's like horrifically invasive. In Southern Florida, it is a type one noxious weed. Type one. Yes. Essentially, it is illegal to like physically have it in your possession to procreate it, to do any propagation whatsoever. Wow. And it is, I don't think if it's like growing on your land, you're not like going to get in trouble. But if you're like a nursery and you're like actively growing new ones, you'll get in trouble. Yeah. It rated. Exactly. And they're like, everyone wants to get rid of them as quickly as they can. But they've taken over like a bunch of islands in Southern Florida, down through the keys in the Bahamas. I like said, seen in the Philippines, but I think it might be native in the Philippines to some extent. I believe so. So there is, it's just this very interesting thing where in certain instances, it's a tree

57:41that the same exact traits, everything's exactly the same. It's doing really good work. And then out of that context, the same exact traits make it just a horrific problem. Yeah. And when it comes to the turtles, I can't tell because I don't know, maybe it's just that this is a space that has not ever had these kinds of trees growing there before. But they grow in other places where other turtles exist. Right. So I'm so curious if it's just this habitat where there's not historically the species of tree causing trouble. Or is there something else that's going on here? Because if you go down to Australia or you go down to any of these other islands in the South Pacific where castorine trees exist and grow in these spaces, are there still the same problems? I do know, Casey, that loggerhead turtles are like, globe trotters.

58:41They're everywhere. Yeah. Anywhere in that zone, in that like the tropical kind of world. Yeah, yeah, they're all around the world. So that is a curious question. I wonder if it's like, if your habitat is like relative, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, are these the loggerhead sub variety that's just like, no, we like this beach in this spot. So if something else is here that changes that, yeah, we can't deal with that. It doesn't matter what are cousins in Australia, how they deal with it. We haven't dealt with it here. Exactly. And here's another thought. And this is just because I said I needed to throw some controversy out. Before people came around, there was a lot of just stuff on the beach. You go to the Olympic National Park in Washington state here in the Pacific Northwest. But they have a whole section that is protected beach area. You go out there and it's just covered in gigantic logs all over the place. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

59:42So if we went to any of these beaches prior to Western people coming and cleaning the beaches off or burning all the logs, are you name it? Now we have beaches that are so pure sand that everyone's loving at blah, blah, blah. But historically, anytime there was a giant storm and trees came down, went to the rivers, flow out into the ocean, they get thrown back on the beach. There would just be logs and detritus and things all over the place. Beaches are historically are not perfect, you know, white sand things. Like they're covered in shit. So turtles have been around for a long time. Like they're one of the most long lived variety of life that has ever existed. So I'm very curious about this being kind of a short term thing in terms of, is it really is it that a log or like these things have fallen and they block the sea turtles? Is that something that the sea turtles have never dealt with in the history of life?

1:00:46So I totally get that, you know, we see this habitat. There's no trees and there are turtles. You then see these trees come up and then fall over and just look like shit. And then we're like, well, that's causing trouble with the turtles. It's like, well, hey, that is very fair. It is causing trouble with the turtles and we should get rid of it and should we put it back to the way it used to be. I think your point is like, yes, this is a habitat specific zone. This island did not have these trees and these beaches were like this and these turtles crushed it. Right. But I just doesn't seem to me, rather, I guess I should rephrase it, seems to me, this tree is being vilified here where doing the same thing elsewhere, it seems to not be a problem. Right. So I'm so curious and I couldn't really dive into this. But what is the difference between natural ecosystem A and unnatural ecosystem B? Other than this tree was not initially over there, but if all the other characters are more or less the same.

1:01:47A very curious question, Casey. Casey, if you were a turtle, which turtle would you be? Which turtle would I be? Ooh, that's a great question. I honestly, I might go with like one of those southern snapping turtles. Oh, sure, those are scary. Those things are scary. They have like 16 inch necks that no one thinks about and then they just junk, go out and just attack something. That's terrifying. I've seen people like just kind of fucking around with them in the south. It's like just get them out of the swamps and they're just like, eh, look at this turtle and that turtle just like whaps and catches their tongue or some crazy thing. Like it's insane. Wow. You can imagine that there are men who have had some bad experiences with this. And in my opinion, deserved. Yeah, of course. I also saw a video of them as there's more of a picture, but they essentially go into like a suspended state during the winter time. There was a photo of a bunch of like snapping turtles just like in stop motion underneath

1:02:50the frozen water somewhere. It was creepy. It was really creepy, but like so, so interesting. It's amazing. It's so funny. They just like hibernate, but they don't have anywhere to go. So they just like freeze in time. Yeah, basically. Yeah. What about you? Which one would you choose? I would choose probably Donatello. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I think you really do fit a Donatello kind of style. Which one had the nunchucks? That's a great question. I do not know. I can't keep my turtles straight. No, absolutely not. And also they're like ninja. So they could probably do with any of them, but of course they have their chosen, you know, weapons. Yeah, if you give, if you give Leonardo the nunchucks, he'd probably be fine. Yeah, I would know. Even though both staff is his specialty. Exactly. Obviously. So, yeah. Okay, so maybe we can do that. Okay, so if his both staff is his specialty, then then we only have three left. We could figure this out. Oh, God. One of them is cool, but rude. I know that. That's in the theme song. He's cool, but rude. It's like a demolition as expert. Oh, I got no idea then. All right, well, we'll figure that out some other time.

1:03:51Yeah, I think that's good. But listen everybody, we hope you enjoyed this shioke episode, beach shioke, I should say. Uh, and we have a great one for you next week, but just another reminder, you got to join that cone club, arbitrary pod dot supercast dot com. Get monthly botanical stickers sent straight to your door. It's the best thing you could possibly do. You know what I really like about the cone club? Is it it's all it's a highly curated experience? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. All this comes straight like from your your active work, my brain. Yeah, we're not we're not just like cobbling together some AI shit low quality stickers, sending them out to you for money and then rubbing our hands together like real takes. We're making a nice product for you. And it's the best way to support the podcast. And it's like I said, something to look forward to. Yes, exactly. Doesn't want that. All right, everybody, thank you for listening to complete arbitrary tree runs. We'll see you next week with the I C B T. Bye. See ya.

1:04:56Completely arbitrary tree run is hosted and produced by Alex, Frozen and Casey clap. And all of our artwork is done. Well, if it's a golden count by Julian Bartholm. Our music is by aves in the mini vandals. If you want to support this podcast, become a tree me a member over to arbitrary pod dot supercast.com. Thanks for listening.