ON AMBITION… With Gillian Anderson and Munroe Bergdorf

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2:07Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com slash fail. That's 15% off at masterclass.com slash fail. Masterclass.com slash fail. Welcome back to how to fail. This week we're talking about ambition, the engine that drives us forward, the inner voice that tells us to keep going, and the shadow side that asks whether we've ever done enough. First actor and Emmy winner Jillian Anderson reflects on being a self-confessed work colleague and the belief that she has to earn her place through constant effort, highly relatable. We discuss pleasure as power, the guilt of not working, and how she balances fierce professional drive with parenthood and presence. Then model and fashion icon Munro Bergdorf shares how her ambition was forged through rejection and gatekeeping in the fashion industry. From being treated as a gimmick to witnessing real change on the runway,

3:09she speaks about perseverance, representation, and widening the path for others. This is an episode about striving, self-worth, and it asks whether ambition liberates us or quietly runs the show. First up, let's hear from Jillian Anderson. Your final failure is failure to not work. Are you a work-olic? Yeah. And where do you think that comes from? Why do you feel that you need to work in order to earn your place on this planet? I don't quite know, but I do have, I mean, it's like a Protestant work ethic. I'm not quite sure where it's come from, but what I do know is I feel incredibly lucky on the one hand. I mean, on all hands. I don't mean nothing. Yeah, I'm incredibly lucky, incredibly fortunate, privileged, all of that to have the choices

4:10that I have had both in my life and my career. And part of it, I think, is showing myself that I deserve it because I'm doing all these things. All these good things are happening than I'd better be working for them. You know, it's not coming lightly or it's not frivolous. That's another thing, actually, that I wanted to talk about in terms of pleasure that I'm starting to realize too, is that so much of pleasure is perceived as being frivolous. Mm-hmm. Yes, trivial. Yeah. And why? Why isn't it as much of a sense of power, you know, to lean into that, to properly embrace pleasure and make space for it and make time for it and give it to oneself as it is the other things that we, and so I'm trying to have more of that in my life, but also realizing the degree to which so much of what I'm involved in, whether it's this drink or one of the shows that I work on

5:14or et cetera, is about pleasure and the joy and pleasure. Anyway, I digress. I think you're so right about pleasure, because why can't it be as inoblune, as transformative, as suffering, or sadness, or pain? Yeah. Because it's the same thing, but the different end of the spectrum. Yeah, exactly. I mean, actually, I do feel like, even though I am a self-described workaholic, I do get pleasure from it. I do, I do get pleasure from that. When I'm clear, actually, it turns out, when I'm not eating brawn crackers and drinking Coca-Cola, I think quite clearly, and things come to me. I'm in a moment right now where, and I'm sure that a lot of it has to do with my age, and it's none of wanting to leave a mark. It's none of that. It is feeling like, hang on, I've still got some things to do. I've still got things to do that I didn't even know I wanted to do. And that is, of course, in roles and building a company that I'm building.

6:17But it's also just in terms of realising that I do have a few things that I want to share with people. And have you ever regretted working too hard or taking on a project? There have been a couple of moments when I haven't been able to stop around my kids that had more to do with not in terms of my work as an actor. But stuff on the side or with other projects and stuff where I have felt the guilt of choosing to focus on those things instead of having time with kids. And I feel like there's a good balance right now. I feel like when I'm with them, I'm with them. And that has become more and more meaningful to me. It's been really important to me in terms of by acting work to always have them as part of the priority in terms of this is when I'm available,

7:19this is when I'm not, et cetera. But this is different. This is in terms of what happens with meetings and with zooms and all those other things that end up in our days today taking, sucking that time. And I've got some pretty strict rules around around all of that. So that my work of holism is something that my boys can look at as being beneficial to them because they can see, you know, not just in terms of what I bring home at the end of the day, but in terms of seeing me effectively building things. And they both have an interest in that. And I think it's been really great that they get to see. And I think they would say that too, that to see a mum who is entrepreneurial. And making things. And our teenagers aren't. Yeah. And imagine two of them are. And then I have one who's, yeah, 28. OK.

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9:25Go to shopify.co.uk-fail. Hey, you didn't hear this from me. But normal gossip is back for its ninth season. Join me, Rachel Hampton, as I share the juicies gossip from the real world with some very special guests. This season, we're bringing back some old friends, a radiotopia buddy, and for the first time ever a Nobel laureate. That's right. We have Malala on season nine. Normal gossip is out on all your favorite podcast platforms. I think I'm an extremely ambitious person. I have a drive that I think is my biggest attribute. I've really had to live a life of discipline and life of tenacity and constant setbacks, constant people that are a gatekeeping, people that are withholding and coming into the fashion industry. Nobody wanted to hire me.

10:26And it took some of the biggest photographers just taking a chance and me like Nick Knight, like Rankin, who wanted to work with me when I was constantly having doors slammed in my face because they were like, why would we work with a trans person? Almost. And this, you know, I know that a lot of black models from the 90s felt the same way as like we're, you know, I watched documentaries the other day where they're like we're just not hiring black models this season. That's exactly the same. So why would we work with a trans person? There's not that kind of campaign. It's not an LGBT campaign. And like now we're seeing that change. We're seeing trans people be in shows and it's not a thing that their trans is just, you know, when it is a thing because the visibility is incredible. And you know, when I see a trans model in a runway, if it's like Alex or if it's Max M or if it's God, India or if it's all of these incredible people within the industry, that means so much to me

11:28but it is not exploited that they're trans anymore. And for so long it was. I have done shoots where my transness has been, you know, almost like a gimmick. And I'm really glad that I've opened doors for so many people. I've been in this industry for almost a decade now. But if it wasn't for, you know, hearing the stories of, you know, women like Naomi Campbell and Joan Smalls and Jordan Dahn and Naomi Anderson talking about, you know, being exploited from like the ages of 14 and being told that there's no black models this season or being on set and not knowing how to do black hair. If it wasn't for those stories and seeing their tenacity and that they could get through it, then I could apply the same kind of work ethic and be like, okay, well, one day there's going to be more than one trans person in the runway. There's going to be a trans person on the runway. And, you know, I have faith that there's going to be multiple trans people in wrong ways one day. And then that's going to filter out as well. And then we're going to see more trans people

12:29in all sorts of campaigns. And then the beauty standard is going to change. And then trans beauty is not going to be seen as any different from any other beauty. Just like black beauty is now getting the respect that it didn't once upon a time. And that's really, you know, what the book is about as well. It's everything does change. And I've really got faith that one day trans people are going to be able to navigate society in the same kind of freedom that other people that I experience in the same kind of oppression in yesterday did. And we'll just be able to be ourselves without having to constantly be so aware of the fact that we're different. You gave me four words. I'm going to let you off the final one. Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that I was, um, maybe the last one's long-winded. It was such a beautiful place to end. And if I can, I would like to give a final word. You're like, this is quick fire. I think no. I never wanted to be quick fire with you. Honestly, I could do this for hours. But I know you've got a fabulous launch to go to.

13:30The final word for me will be powerful. You're so powerful. You're powerful in your truth. You're powerful in your words on the page. You're powerful in person. I am so grateful to you for finding times to do how to fail. Honestly, it's meant the world to me. Too good and co-coffee creamers are made with farm-fresh cream, real milk, and contain three grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the five grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold, or frothy, too good coffee creamers make every sip a good one. Too good coffee creamers, real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local croaker in the creamer aisle. Take the scenic route at Abercrombie's new spring collection designed for weekend getaways. Full of layers like sweaters, dresses, and matching sets that take you from half the hour

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