NYC, LA Lead the Way on AI Pushback in Schools

0:00What a family, welcome to all of the above your home for news and analysis of all matters pertaining to our Wild World of Education. My name is Manuel Rustin, your favorite teacher's favorite teacher. I'm here with Jeffrey Garrett, Mr. Super Dupor Dope Principal Leader Man. And this here is a full episode of all the above. We've been hitting you with a few shorts, a tinier episodes, focused on just a single story. A lot of those, you know, a lot of times we pre-record those if we know that we are going to be busy in our educator or personal lives. And I certainly have been inundated with a brand new school year that I needed to adjust to. And Jeff, I assume Mr. Super Dupor Dope Principal Leader Man has just been galvanting around collecting big bucks and just kind of like, I don't know, doing your thing while

1:02us teachers in the classroom, you know, sweat it out, sweat it out in this heat, trying to educate the youths. How you been, Jeff? That's exactly right. I have been galvanting. There might even have been some socialism taking other people's money and not working right out of their pockets. That's right. That's right. And then, just reloading, failure to pull on one's bootstraps, I think is what that is. Man, just walking around with boots that are just dragging, flopping around, didn't pull them up. Exactly. Disgusting, Jeff. I will say, Manuel, I have been, I was out of Massachusetts a couple of weeks ago, but it was before the school year starts out there. And so then this past week, I was on a couple of high school campuses here in the LA area and it was lovely to be back on campus with students.

2:05Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's nothing. There's nothing quite like a man, the energy that the kids bring is, you know, can be exhausting sometimes, but also, it's beautiful, you know, young people are doing their thing, man, growing, trying to figure it out in this crazy world we live in. And I was in, I actually, it's funny, normally, man, well, so those who maybe don't know me, I'm a very large person, like football player, defensive tackle vibes are strong with me. And I get this a lot when I go to elementary schools, the kids will like, you know, stare up with their neck all bent back and they're like, yo, you're so tall. Like, how tall are you? How'd you get that tall? But I was in this high school math class, I think, and this girl came up to me very politely and she was like, um, my friend wanted to know how tall are you. And I was like, oh, that's cute.

3:05I'm six four. And you should eat your vegetable, kids. That's what I always tell them. Nice. Eat your vegetables and, you know, do your eye rating and study for the, the S back score against your test scores up. That's what you need to tell them, Jeff. Learning loss. Remember, we got to recover that. That's what I should have said. I should have said I'm six four and onto the important subjects. How's your learning loss going? Exactly. Exactly. Man. Uh, well, that's awesome. That's awesome. Um, we're definitely, definitely back into the school year, for sure, at my school site. So we just wrapped up our third week. So it was three, four weeks. And now we have a three day weekend, which is fantastic. And I actually like to set up because it's like three weeks of just the hard adjustment back to full time, full classes schedules shifting around, getting back on your feet all day, speaking loudly all day, all that. And then, you know, getting acclimated to that kind of got a sense of like what my different

4:06classes will be like in terms of, you know, overall, overall vibes and personalities and energies and this and that. How to get a sense of like what students are showing up with in terms of their preparedness or their thoughts and hopes and dreams for the school year. And now it's like, okay, time out. Three day, three day weekends. Get right, get your mind right, catch a breath. And then into into the real flow of the school year, kind of, Jeff, it kind of reminds me of the hydration breaks during the World Cup. This is kind of like a quick little, like, okay, okay. We saw what they showed up with. We saw what they came out with. Let's, you know, hydrate and just talk a little bit and then we'll be right back out there real quick on Tuesday. So so far so good. Shout out to all the classroom teachers and school staff and district administrators and everybody that plays a role in the functioning of our K-12 education system and higher ed, of course, because yo, man, it's that time of year. It's very exciting. Energize. My students definitely showed up really excited and energized and it's been all positive.

5:08It's just been really great feeling. So hopefully that's the same for a lot of other folks who are listening to this and for anybody who's about to start. I mean, my, my niece and nephew, they started their new Jersey and their first day of school I think was last was like on Thursday or something. On Thursday, yeah, yeah. Okay. So yeah, I think most of the places just because of where Labor Day, Labor Day is like as late as it can be this year. Right. It's like a full seven days or whatever into September. Also most schools, most folks that usually do after Labor Day did a couple days ago. Yeah. Got you. Okay. So yeah, shout out to everybody who just started. You know, hopefully this ends up being a fantastic start to the school year and fantastic school year overall for sure. Yeah, man. All right. Well, this is all the above. We'll be talking about all things in the wild world of education. And since we've been being gone for a minute in terms of, you know, full episode, man,

6:08a lot has happened. We had a lot of different headlines, a lot of different stories. You know, there's certainly what I consider to be like the really big story in education this past week. But a whole lot of other headlines too, Jeff, how are we going to juggle all this man? How we, how are we going to approach this? Yeah. Well, I really like I was looking back through. So folks, pulling back the curtain, normally throughout the week, man, well, and I will send each other, well, text like, here's an interesting article. You might want to touch, you know, touch on on the show. And in a normal week, there might be like, you know, I don't know, three or four that like kind of bubble up as interesting and juicy enough that we want to consider them for the show, right? This time there was like 12 juicy articles over the last couple of weeks that I was scrolling way back in the text feed, looking at like, oh, that one's good. That was crazy. So what we're going to do folks is a quick lightning round of just like incredible stories.

7:09And I mean that in the literal sense of like very noteworthy, interesting. And we're just going to run down these super fast just to like keep us all abreast of the happenings and the why literally the wild world of education as Dr. Rustin often says increasingly wild world of education. So we're going to run down four incredible stories that you may have heard about. Maybe you missed, but wow, what a what a last few weeks of education has been. So first story, speaking of the wild world of education comes to us out of the BBC from the nation of Nepal. They had an article titled head teacher evacuaries 900 students minutes before Nepal flood. And if you didn't hear about this dude and I apologize for my pronunciation, but his name is Rajendra Dawadi, who is in charge of the Tribu Vaan Trishuli secondary school in Nua Kaut. I'm sure I slaughtered those pronunciations, but all the crazy videos you saw of like

8:11whole towns being overrun by 300 foot wall of mud. This dude got was further down the valley and got phone calls and made the call to like turn the buses around and tell the kids to run the higher ground and 900 students and many dozens of adults are alive today and not buried under 300 feet of mud because of that call. So shout out to Rajendra. You know, when people disrespect teachers out there, I want you to give them this example front center that like folks is literally out here saving lives. Okay. So that's story number one. Story number two, judge dismisses justice department lawsuit challenge in California, transgender sports policies in the LA times. The justice department, which of course is trash and weaponized again, says now a ledge that the state's Department of Ed and the California inter-scholastic federation that's the sports league here in California were in violation of Title IX, which is wild to

9:14say. But the US district judge Cynthia Valenzuela found that Title IX says no such thing. And was like, actually, they can participate in sports or at least California can set its own rules and get out of here, which are transphobic nonsense. So that's story number two. Story number three, one I never thought I would see, man. Well, the Florida Catholic bishops reject the attorney generals, the state attorney generals demand to allow religious vaccine exemptions in diocesan. I don't know how you say that word. I was just thinking in the diocese. Right. This story was in medicaldaily.com. That's a first here on all the above. And basically, Florida attorney general James Utmire had tried to force the Catholic schools to give religious exemptions and was like trying to tell the bishops, here's how you should interpret scripture. And they were like, first of all, you can't tell us that.

10:16Second of all, we don't have to explain ourselves to you. Third of all, we will because you're wax. So here's why we're not listening to you now. Talk to the hand, which was fantastic to read. And last, but most certainly not least, man, well, was a crazy story out of, it was an ed week. And it was titled Nebraska's largest school district, ask police not to use electric shot gloves on students. Talk about a sentence I never thought I would see in education. So here we are. And this story has officially the quote of the week from all of our lightning round stories, which is, and I quote, I can't even imagine walking down the hallway and seeing a peer of mine being electrocuted in a place that is supposed to be a safe space for students said, nor a whistle, a senior at Omaha Central High School. So man, well, we've arrived at the place where the kids are like, don't electrocute us at school. Please.

11:17This is just how we're rolling now. You know, thoughts, comments, reflections, Dr. Reston. Well, I mean, first of all, the head teacher in Nepal, I mean, that was just, I saw him a video of him being interviewed. I think later on that day and just, you know, just so heartbreaking what happened and just so wonderful that rather than panic and just like run because you never know what the person is going to do, even if they're charged with like, you know, supporting kids, protecting kids, whatever, you never really know what's going to happen when something that massive and that catastrophic comes their way. So I'm, you know, I'm thinking about the, I think it was the Parkland shooting officer, the officer there who like kind of just like ducked and hid and like, you know, didn't go towards the danger to protect the kids. So you know, I'm thinking about how many school police in the United States have shown themselves to like not really be up for the task when it actually comes and to think of this head teacher who got the word that this catastrophic flood was coming and instead

12:23of just like panicking and running off or passing out or something like, you know, he helped coordinate the escape of so many, so many students. So, you know, shout out to him, shout out to the judge for telling the, for telling the Justice Department to kick rocks when it comes to their challenge of, I mean, California is a fritz. I don't know how I'm going to go against it. Anyways, yeah, shout out to them and you know, shout out to the Catholic bishops for basically saying like we're not going to allow religious exemptions for these vaccines and we don't need to explain to you our theology behind that decision. So Florida Attorney General kick rocks and shout out to the students in Nebraska who are telling these, I don't, I mean, electric shot gloves. I don't even know what to, how to even like, I don't even know what term to use for those, like that's just such a, a, a, a, an horrifying invention in the first place. But you know, shout out to the students or everybody involved in basically telling the police

13:24wars to kick rocks with that idea of walking around with these gloves on them because come on, man, that's just crazy. So I think these are four pretty good stories, like not, not good. Obviously, the, the Paul stories, it's tragic, but good from the, you know, from the otherwise devastating event. But yeah, four stories of like people doing the right thing seems like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the face of like total insanity, whether that insanity be, you know, the ongoing denial that climate change is coming for us all, you know, or the like bizarre, I don't even know what to say about the anti-vaxxers at this point, man, like these, these are the pro measles people. Well, these are the bring back smallpox people. Like, I don't know what is going on with them. And I don't, at this point, at this point, I don't respect, I really don't like, I, my respect is a different thing than legal rights, right? Of course, but like, I don't respect the opinion that anti-vaxxers have writ large.

14:29I certainly can respect questions and people who want like explanations about what's in the vaccines and people who've heard things, you know, because there's so much misinformation out there, right? But like, there's, vaccines are one of the most important medical technology advancements ever, ever like, like vaccines, antibiotics, probably, right? Like, like those two, that's the reason we don't die at 35 anymore. Like, you know, more than anything else. And so, you know, and 150 years ago when people died at 35, everybody was eaten, you know, organic pesticide-free beef tally was all the rage, right? Like, like, come on, man, like, accept that this is real science. And like, the rest of us do not want to get the world's most contagious virus from you, because you have crazy ideas.

15:30Like, I don't know what to say for you at this point. Yeah, shout out. Never thought I'd be like, shout out to the, the diocese for like, repin for good science and the people. But, but here we are, man. Well, here we are. And whoever invented the torture gloves that were in use in Omaha public schools, and I'm sure now are in use in other schools and ICE is using out here on the streets, terrorized kids and families. That person needs to be held like actually individually liable, I think. This is a torture device that was invented. Like, I don't, I don't know, man. There, liability needs to be had here. I mean, it's, I'm sure it's some, I mean, my assumption would be it's either some tech burrows or some company that specializes in weaponry in general. And somehow they spun into the into the air that like these are actually compassionate because instead of like using violence, we're going to just, you know, what are they

16:36called it? Non, non lethal or less than lethal. Whatever the proper term is, less than lethal. But like, wow, especially in schools, like where you don't know, like, you know, students having a breakdown or something, you don't know nothing about the student. You know, I'm assuming school police, you don't know nothing about the students, mental condition, physical condition. You don't know nothing about like, you know, what this electric shock is going to do. Aside from the fact that it's going to be a extremely traumatic scene for anybody involved. And if you are a school police and can't peaceably like restrain somebody who needs to be restrained if that's even the case, they maybe shouldn't be police because I mean, to me, that seems like the basics for like a school. You should be capable of that without shocking them. If you're someone who wants to wear these gloves, that should be exclusionary criteria for you serving in any kind of position of authority anywhere. Like if you're the person who's going to get all on shocking electric shocking people,

17:39like this is Abu Ghraib type of behavior. So like I don't know what to say, man, like these kind of people should not be allowed in schools. If we're doing background checks, it should be like, have you ever been convicted of a felony? Have you are you on the sex offender registry? Are you someone who's excited about putting on a electric shock gloves so you could shock the kids? Like, what are we doing? What are we doing, man? Well, I'm worried about these gloves. I'm worried about being out in the general public because like this just should not be a thing that people have. Talk about like concealed weapons or whatever. They just look like regular ass gloves. Like, you don't know. And somebody's just, you know, some crazy person being able to just walk up on somebody and electrocute them or whatever. Anyways, at least that's not having them in schools and they should not be on eyesight. They should not exist period, but at the bare minimum, get them out of schools, man. What the hell? Yeah. That's wild. Insane. Yep.

18:39But at least the kids in Omaha don't have to get shocked in high school anymore at this point. So good for them. Yeah. Well, four stories that I think reflect good decisions being made. I think that's fair to say all four reflect good decisions being made. And I think our larger story for the week, or both of the like kind of big chunkier stories for this week's all of the above, I think also reflect good decisions being made or at least decisions in the direction of being the right decisions. And although, you know, I'm sure we'll have some areas of it to critique. But Jeff, man, big news, big news coming out of your old stopping grounds and big news coming out of your current stopping grounds. What we got? Yeah, man, we got a fascinating story this week, folks. I imagine most people may have heard at least something about this or seen a headline.

19:43But we're going to pull this specifically from an article that appeared in Ed Week written by Allison Klein, came out on September 2nd and then was updated on September 3rd. And it is entitled New York and Los Angeles Restrict Student AI Use Will Other Districts Follow. So as the headline implies, the two largest school districts in the country are restricting students to use a generative artificial intelligence. New York City Public Schools is banning AI powered learning tools for elementary and middle school students, nixing individual devices for younger children, and recommending strict age-based screen time limits, said Mayor Zoran Mamdani on September 2nd. Quote, we know the purpose of AI companies, whether they are making sports betting models or an education tool is to produce profit. Mamdani said in a press conference, here in New York, our New York City Public Schools, our purpose is our students. New Yorkers deserve to know that their children's data won't be mined by big tech and they deserve to know that their children's growth

20:46won't be compromised for corporations bottom line, he said. The policy also bans the use of school issued computing devices in pre K through 2nd grade. It recommends screen time limits of 30 minutes a day for students in grades 3 through 5 and 45 a day for students in grade 6 through 8. It also prohibits the use of so-called companion chatbots which offer students mental health or emotional support for all students. Love that. There are some limited exceptions to the policy, including for students with special ed or English learners who need AI or technology access the curriculum. Similarly, Los Angeles Unified announced a moratorium on AI use on district-owned devices for all students. This school year, as it considers how to incorporate the technology in the future, the announcement came on September 2nd at a meeting of the district's generative AI ad hoc committee. LEU's decision comes months after it became among the first to improve a screen time policy that also set maximum limits by grade level, eliminated K to one student use

21:54of digital devices and prohibited student-led use of YouTube or other streaming platforms. Now, of course, Manuel, these policies are not without their critics. So, John Claude Brasard, who's the CEO of digital promise, which is a nonprofit focus on digital equity, said that AI can be harnessed thoughtfully to help students think critically and be creative. But blocking kids from even trying out the technology before high school presents an equity issue. Kids of middle income, upper income parents are going to have access to technology. They're going to learn how to use AI, he said. The poor kids in New York City will be the ones who will suffer without a sensible approach to leveraging technology. It is important to note that New York will be operating five pilot programs that allow high schoolers to use a limited array of AI tools that will be carefully vetted for privacy and safety. And those tools will be used in no more than five classes per school for limited number of minutes on a restricted number of assignments.

22:58So, Manuel, how the pendulum has swung on this issue over the last couple of years, and maybe it's still swinging, frankly, between the kids are being left behind. We have to, you know, it's inevitable. We have to use it to, like, what are we doing to our kids? This is, there's so many risks. And, you know, what's happening with our data and privacy, etc. And, there's been a little whiplash maybe on this issue here. And I'm curious as a, you know, as a current teacher who is both navigating the pros and cons of this world yourself right now. What's your take on these policies in LA in New York? You know, there's some whiplash. The pendulum has been swinging. And I think all of that helps point to the fact that we should have hit the breaks on this a long time ago. And anybody who's been listening to our show for a while knows that

24:01you and I are at best AI skeptics. And I think more accurately, like just very much against the technology as it's rolling out right now. And, you know, I'm happy that this happened. I think, yes, sure, it's a little late. I think it was obvious since day one, since the first public widely released version of GBTK now. I think it was obvious immediately that schools, at least, schools, at least had a real problem on their hands, even in just in just like the most basic, like academic dishonest sense of like, you know, not being able to tell if a student wrote the essay or where AI wrote it. So like from the jump from the beginning, it was clear that like, oh, wait, this thing here might, might be a little harmful or might at least challenge, really challenge our mission here of educating and uplifting these youth. So I'm happy that this happened. I do think it's a little late, but it's not too late. At least it's not too too late. I don't think

25:04to do the right thing, which is what I think both districts are doing here reading the room with my own students this year. You know, every year, I kind of I'm curious what I'll get in terms of the new crop of students who who pop up because, you know, their, their mindsets and their knowledge bases evolving rapidly as the world evolves rapidly. And, you know, obviously a couple of years ago, that set of students were like secretive and quiet about chat GBT because like, you know, it was like their little little secret for how they like could cheat on assignments or something like that. And of course, we've come a long way since then. This current crop of students when I, you know, just reading the room and hearing conversation even just within the last week with my seniors in particular, it became clear that like a lot of them do, you know, either use or like confer with quad or a chat GBT or still look at the AI overview in Google, but it's very clear to them that that's not a good practice because I hear them clowning each other for it. And simultaneously,

26:06in general, they are all not literally all, but the the overwhelming sentiment in each of my classes because it also already come up in conversation is that generative AI when it comes to videos, photos, number of flyers that you see everywhere, all that stuff is, is, their kids are very down on that and they clown the hell out of it. Kid had a, we, we've been doing many presentations in my government class. Just kind of introductory type presentations about their values and kind of how their values help influence how they view the world and view, you know, what government should be doing this and that whatever. And like a kid's, his life show wasn't finished. So he had kind of a placeholder image there. It was clearly a AI generated image of like a family or something. Man, that kid got clowned immediately. They're like, why you got AI sloping your presentation? And it, you know, so like, you know, these kids, they, they are advancing quickly and learning quickly. And you bring up data centers, you mention that, you mentioned flat cameras, any of the stuff around

27:10my seniors, man, it's, whoo, they open arms quickly. So, so I say that to say, I'm glad that these two largest districts are doing something to try to at least slow down. Because I think at the end of the day, that's really all this is doing. It's slowing down the implementation of AI throughout like all of our classroom spaces. And I love seeing that because, you know, we've spoken at late about the dangers. And I don't care how useful it is. Like I'm sick of seeing any teacher or educator talk about how useful it is or how useful it can be if done right or if done ethically. I do not care about its usefulness at this point when it is so clear that it is causing just wrecking havoc environmentally economically for folks around data centers for folks who are being displaced in their workplace by AI. Like it is wreaking havoc. And at the same time,

28:10all of the other dangers such as like, you know, these, what was the AI agents that over the summer back in July broke into something that they weren't supposed to break into and we're keeping it a secret from, from the company. And it's just like all this just bad bad news happening out there. And at bare minimum, schools and kids should not be a piece of that. We should protect them from the technology, especially as we are still unsure what this technology, like how it's going to impact our actual society and actual economy and environment. So yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I think it's no secret to folks out there. As you said that we are, we are highly skeptical. And I would say that's a generous term, you know, my definite stance on AI tools is that they should be seen as harmful until proven but not. And we often take that perspective in education, like from

29:13a from a risk management, you know, politics and public relations perspective and public education, we often take the perspective on things to like, hey, unless we know this is like safe, unless we know this is going to be beneficial, we're not doing this, right? Like there's all kinds of things when it comes to like field trips or, you know, what kinds of vendors you can have on campus, anyone who works in education who's tried to become a vendor for or get a contract with a school knows that there are huge hurdles to overcome, right? Like me as a consultant, if I want to work with a district, I have to have an insurance policy that covers me for one to two million dollars per incidence of any, you know, like anything I would be held liable for. You have to have your own workers comp policy, you have to have your own, you know, vehicle insurance, you like, you will, like the district is not liable for anything. You got to have coverage for millions of dollars for

30:14this and that, right? And and yet for whatever reason and not just for whatever reason, like obviously they have, you know, used their many billions of dollars to control the the kind of political environment and narrative here. But we have decided to accept that like this, this or did decide to accept that this is just the way it is and we're going to have to accept these tools and if and if we don't, then we're going to be harming the kids, even though quite frankly, all or almost all of the data that I have seen and granted it is early, but all are almost all the data, the early data on like what are the impacts of AI when it comes to cognitive development of young people? I've yet to see something that suggests a positive impact. I've seen some that suggests neutral impact, right? And these are small studies. So we'll you know, we'll see what the data says over the long term. But you know, best case scenario, it says like kids who use AI to

31:19like support their studying, like do fine. And and worst case scenario, it says kids who use AI to, you know, to support their studying artificially think they're smarter than they are and then when they go take the test, they do miserably because the AI is doing all the thinking for them. Any adults who's interacted with kids who are using, you know, large language models to write papers and stuff for them knows that like the kids are getting dumber as an in-artful term here. And frankly, the adults are getting dumber too, but like because we're outsourcing the thinking to these machines. And that is a bad thing, especially for kids. It's arguably bad for adults as well, but it is especially for kids who have not finished the process of their brain developing, who have not finished the process of like learning the fundamental critical reasoning skills that you at least should be learning in school. And so I we're in this situation, Manuel, where I don't buy the claims that like there, there's any evidence that there's real benefits to be, to be gained.

32:24We don't have evidence that I have seen at least suggesting that. And we do have evidence suggesting the risks. And in education, most things where those factors are true, we keep out of our schools, or we don't let schools use, or we put in conditions that sort of say like the district is not going to support this, like what you do in your own time is up to you, you know. And so I'm glad to see the pendulum swinging to what feels to me to be a more reasonable place, which is like, oh, we have information that suggests this is dangerous. And so we need to protect students from it. And the burden of proof is not on the school district. The burden of proof is on this industry. If you if you have a benign product, prove to us that it's benign. And then we and then we can use it, you know. So I'm happy to see that. The other piece, Manuel, which I'm curious to get your take on this that drives me nuts, or I don't know, that's not the right phrasing. But I have long

33:26where you're going. Go ahead. Oh, okay. It's the equity. The folks who are like exactly the issue. Exactly. We have to let the kids in the city use this. Otherwise, the rich kids in the suburbs will like outpace them in the marketplace. I hate that. Yeah. Okay. Tell me your thoughts. I mean, first of all, it's false because what ends up happening is the the kids in the so-called upper income areas, what college educated parents this and that. Then be the same kids whose parents are in the know about the harms of these things and search out private schools that where they can, you know, be screen free and do like holistic education, this, that, whatever, whatever. And it'd be the poor kids, the marginalized kids, the kids who don't get the love and support that is needed from our institutions who are stuck with AI stuff everywhere to kind of fill in the gap for the under-resourced teaching and all that. That happens. And it's thrown out there. It's like, oh, this is the equity issue. You don't want these poor black and brown kids left behind. Do you as a way of saying like, you must have to support it because this, I'm not doing this because

34:28of the CEO of digital promise and who knows what my financial interests are here and there. But I'm doing it because I actually care for the kids. No, you don't actually care for the kids. None of this AI stuff is really about equity. None of it is about certainly none of it is about supporting black and brown kids at all. There's just always thrown up there as like a a convenient little way of saying like, oh, we're, you know, we're doing this for them. And you got to support us and let us make it happen. When in the end we know they're going to be one's most stuck on screens with AI and all kinds of crap and not getting the whole sum human centric education that they deserve. So it's just, oh, but it always happens. It's always ends up being about equity when it's something that's actually really trash, especially if it's something connected to big money corporations. Yeah. There's, so I agree with what you said. And there's an insidiousness to this kind of claim that I don't appreciate because there is a time in space for the argument that like, hey, denying this to our students, right, is an equity issue.

35:32And I think that has historically been used in in righteous ways, right? Like we have inferior books. We have inferior facilities. We have, you know, don't have access to all the extracurricular, you know, programming. We have inequitable funding. You know, we have a progressive property tax based funding system that requires that poor people be taxed at higher rates on their smaller incomes in order to generate still less funding for, you know, for their schools, right? Like that those are the places where I'm like, yes, let's bring the equity argument. This feels like, and I don't know, I'm looking at the website right now for digital promise. They have a lovely diverse leadership team. John Claude Brasard appears to be a black man. His little blurb says, ask me about everything. After more than 30 years in education at all levels of the system, I know a lot about a lot of things. And part of me is like, that's a bold claim.

36:35But also like, you know, cool. I imagine he's probably very experienced and smart person and running this big organization that, you know, is trying to do good in the world, I think. But I do think there's an insidiousness around like when you're, when what you are pushing is a product or suite of products from corporations who are not like, and I don't say this in the, like, yes, this is reflective of my political bias, but I would argue this is a factually true statement about the nature of corporations. Like when your, when your mission is like, advance the market share for these companies in the field of public education, you have a conflict of interest in this equation then. And it is not the right place to lead with the like, this is, this is an equity issue. And therefore we need, you know, anthropic and open AI and meta and

37:37Google and Microsoft to have to like get more products in our schools. Like that to me feels if you really felt like, like this was true, you would be speaking about it in different language, right? You'd be saying you'd be citing some examples of things or you'd be, you'd be, I don't know, so it feels like a corporate talking point. It doesn't feel like a voice from a community that's saying like, Hey, we want this. And we feel like we're being denied this. And this denial is a structural barrier to our liberation. And therefore we want change. This is like a position that's built on this like quite frankly, unfounded assumption of benevolence from these tech companies with the, with the huge assumption that like more tech is going to translate into, you know, like more kids getting access to like high paying jobs in the future or whatever.

38:44And I'm sure a small percentage that that might be true. But also I'm like, I don't know, I don't think that's even like mostly true. Like this, this is built on this is a house of cards that you're standing on here. And I'm going to need something different from you if you're coming to the table with the like, this is an equity issue argument. I don't, you have not proven your case from my perspective. Yeah, I agree with that 100% and you know, I am, always concerned in the education space for sure. There are a lot of really great folks who probably mean well, you know, I imagine he, for example, the CEO of Digital Promise probably means well in terms of like equity and probably does think that having marginalized kids have access to these tools might actually help them or something. It's just, I mean history just shows it's just so, it's just wrong. It's just wrong. When corporations, when big money get behind

39:48the new technology or whatever it is that they want to expand their market share to do all that, like, Mars on I suppose it's not just that they get left behind, but they're the ones who bear the ultimate cost and burden and of all the harms that the new technology the new things do. So I think Nepal is just a, a, a perfect example, which we talked about at the top. Like that is certainly that glacier melting and breaking the way it did and devastating that area and killing thousands of people in a truly horrific horrifying way is absolutely connected to climate change and absolutely connected to how we have allowed the corporations, companies around the world to just really just torch the atmosphere with all kinds of stuff and here come data centers just adding to that and it be the most, the folks that aren't even at the front edge of trying to expand this stuff are the ones who ultimately pay the price and the rich folks just get to keep floating around on their private jets and eventual spaceships while so like, you know, something like this is just disgusting when we think about AI and the potential harms, the obvious harms that we already

40:52know of and just all the potential harms that are perhaps yet to come and to think that like, oh, but we got to get this in front of marginalized kids because it's an equity issue. They're they're going to get left behind because the rich kids are going to know this stuff like, nah, man, this thing, that's, that's not the move to make. I understand that it might actually be coming from the heart. You might actually believe that to be true, but that's not the move to make and I've seen plenty of classroom teachers who have been on the AI bandwagon talking about like, you know, I don't want my kids to get left behind. Man, there are kids no more about AI than you do. Like, come on, this, this be honest. So like, they're not getting left behind in the first place and secondly, that's not the fight that needs to be had. The real fight needs to be like, get left behind why? Like, why are we letting this race so fast in the first place and have such a big impact on our society and our economy and our environment in the first place? There shouldn't be no left behind because we shouldn't let this just take off without any kind of regulation, without any kind of oversight with any, any kind of input from the people like that just should not be allowed in the first place. So talk

41:53about that. Don't talk about your kid being left behind. Talk about how we could collectively slow this thing down and make sure we know what's happening here and not allow these billionaires to potentially just catastrophically ruin what we got here with our current society in and what have you. So it's just very frustrating. It is two things I'll say about what you just said, man, well, this concept of left behind, I'm like, especially when it comes to AI, like, it's one thing I bought the left behind a little more when it was like, well, kids aren't using computers and like every job or so many jobs required to be able to like type and use an interface and understand like windows or Apple iOS or whatever. And I'm like, I get it on that level if you have not had exposure, if you can't type and then you got to go to college, like you're going to have struggle. That's being left behind. This AI is like, what do you mean left behind? Like if the data is telling us at preliminary and anecdotalism may be at this point, that use extensive use of

43:00AI is actually compromising your ability to think and learn than being left behind, quote unquote, left behind might actually be a good thing. Like, like, man, you might be the only generation of kids out here still left thinking because you didn't get to use chat GPT all your way through school. Right. So I'm like, what do we mean when we say left behind here, especially when the future that the AI companies are pushing for? And you know, you literally, they say this how loud is a future where like they take all of our jobs and maybe they kill us all. And like, but they solve climate change and cure cancer somehow. Like, you know, this is like very deeply sociopathic things that these executives are talking about. And like, what are we being left behind from exactly? Second thing I'll say about what you said there, man, well, and I'm going to put like seven asterisks on what I'm saying right here. But I'm looking at digital promises website on their funders and partners section. And I say the asterisks because having worked in education on profits

44:05my whole life, the reality is like, there's no, there's no good philanthropists. I might regret saying that. But like, you know, you don't become a multi billionaire who then can give away all your money by like doing really righteous restorative things for the world, right? Like, folks raped and pillaged and now they're given away their money. And so, um, so that, so like, that's the nature of what it means to be a nonprofit. There's government grants and then there's grants from billionaires and multi millionaires. And that's how it goes. That said, if you look at their funders, this is this is maybe why it like, I had the tinge of like this, this reads like conflict of interest to me in a way. Their funders include the Gates Foundation. Now Gates Foundation is independent from Microsoft, but let's be real. Like the billions came from Microsoft, right? Chan Zuckerberg initiative. Again, independent from meta and Facebook, but also the money comes from meta and Facebook. Um, Facebook itself is a funder. HP Inc is a funder. IBM is a funder. Um,

45:09the Michael and Susan Dell Foundation is a funder, right? So like, Verizon is a funder. So, that's not to say that they are evil and we can't trust them at all. But I'm just saying that like in in a situation where the sort of public face that you're pushing is we need more tech. And you are funded largely by interests that have either made their wealth off of, you know, Silicon Valley and technology and very related industries or currently still are massively profitable in that space. Or the adjacent stuff like telecommunications, it does it has to raise some questions about like what agenda you bring to the table, right? It doesn't mean they're evil and bad and no one should work with them. I don't really know anything about this organization, what other than what we read here in this article and you know, what I'm reading on their website. And I'm sure there's a lot of good people working there. But like we have we have to be critical

46:09consumers of this information, I think. Yeah, absolutely. We. Man, I don't know, man. It's a lot of folks listening to this right now. I'm just saying, please, please try to limit the adoption of AI everywhere to the extent possible. I know it just pops up on your screen. I logged into our canvas, you know, our learning management system this week and there's a new little AI thing that wasn't there before, but it's there now. I didn't even click on it. I think it's something about using AI to like search through the entire course or whatever. But like it's just in our face everywhere. And it's just all happened so fast and we don't need to throw up our hands and say, well, it is what it is. Mars will help help the the kids learn how to use it as a useful tool. I acknowledge that it is a useful tool in a lot of ways. Just because it's useful in a lot of ways,

47:11that doesn't cover up all of the potential harm and actual harm that it is doing. The usefulness man, we were able to teach before that. Well, we, me and Jeff were joking this week about like I joke with him about man, sometimes I wish they would just shut off the Wi-Fi and just force everybody back into like really like just analog human teaching and learning. And then I panicked for a moment at the thought of like going through my whole school day without Wi-Fi because it's like, oh, how would I take a tennis? I would check emails. What if there's this? What if there's that? And then like I had to laugh on myself because like I'm here in the freaking same school building where I was for years without Wi-Fi. Like for years when I first came to the school, there was that you plug in, ethernet cable for your desktop computer, but one no Wi-Fi, one no nothing. And those are some of the best years of my teaching in terms of just the memory of connecting with the kids and all the things that we did and learned. So like it's, we don't have to race forward,

48:14especially in schools, at least, at least in schools maybe we try to limit it and slow it down to make sure our kids aren't being harmed. You know, like a corporate world, fine, whatever. If that medium-sized business wants to AI everything, man, whatever, man, they're going to do what they're going to do. But in schools, we should be able to step up as teachers, as educators, as administrators, as folks just in all the different capacities and say, you know what, we're good right now. We're going to see how this plays out, but we're going to keep it out of our school buildings in the time being while we see how this plays out. It should be that simple. I don't know. Yeah. Well said, man. And shout out to New York City Public Schools and Los Angeles Unified School District for taking these bold steps. You know, I think there is some political risk in doing so. And, you know, and also maybe they're just like, they've gotten a million phone calls

49:15from parents that are like, my kids, I'm screens too much and they're crazy and like, we need to cut out, you know, maybe they're just responding to their incentives and not leading courageously in this moment. I don't know, but I think this is the right move or at least a step, you know, several steps in the right direction. And so I appreciate leadership, you know, doing that, especially in these large school systems that then helps set precedent and give some political cover for smaller school districts to follow suit. And maybe, you know, given the size of New York and LA, whole states to potentially to follow suit as well. So shout out to them for doing that. And wouldn't it be nice if we all had mayors like Zoran Mamdani who like actually tried to help the people. And I'm sure he is, you know, not above criticism as well. But, man, wouldn't that be refreshing? Would be nice. Yes. All right. We have one final related story. We're going to tackle

50:18here. This is an article that came out and it actually originally came out in the Long Beach post, but we found it in LAist, which is a local, you know, news outlet here. It's titled California Legislature Passes Bill on Addictive Social Media for Younger Kids. It's written by Kate Raphael came out on September 2nd. A new bill is soon expected to become law here in California after passing unanimously in the state legislature. The bill prohibits social media platforms from providing addictive features to kids under age 16. If past the legislation would go into effect in January of next year and prohibit young users from accessing social media platforms that have these features, which include things like infinite scroll, auto play algorithms and notifications that sort of constantly draw your attention and authorize the state's attorney general to implement and enforce these restrictions. The ban would apply to social platforms heavily

51:19used by young people, including Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat and YouTube. However, platforms can become quote, good actors and continue offering services to young people if they remove addictive features. However, we know social media platforms always are evolving, so the bill establishes an independent advisory commission to continue monitoring platforms and the features that they offer children over time. Age gating in this way has raised some privacy concerns because it could require the collection of sensitive information that could lead to the loss of anonymity on the internet. Yet, one of the bill's sponsors says that it would leverage existing law that allows for verification of age on the device level, meaning that in most cases, users won't have to present government issued identification. The bill also has elicited some fears about infringement on First Amendment rights, given that young people are constitutionally entitled to speak and

52:21access speech on social media. But this is a public health crisis. I said, one of the state legislatures that must take precedence, that that priority is bolstered by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which supports this bill. So, Manuel, I feel like we've actually had a fair amount of good news in dystopian times on the show today. I don't, I imagine you would agree with me on this, but this feels like word, good news, get the kids off of social media, or at least, like, let's put in some attempt at serious guardrails against the things that we know are most harmful. In the platforms themselves, you know, of course, this doesn't necessarily address the like horrible things that might be said online, but like, it's at least a good step in the right direction. I believe and curious to hear your reflections on this piece. Yeah, similar to the last piece, this is one of those things where

53:26it kind of feels kind of late. Like we should have did this a while ago, but I'm happy that it's here, it's not too too late to take some kind of action. So, this is certainly promising. I'm hoping it gets signed into law. Like, this is California where Silicon Valley reigns supreme. So, even though the, you know, legislature, legislature passed it, you know, I'm going to be shocked if the governor has some excuse for not signing it into the law, given that he has strong connections to Silicon Valley. But in any case, like, I'm happy to see it. I'm happy to see it. I think the the addictive features that it points out, infinite scroll, auto play algorithms and notifications. I think we can have a conversation about restricting that period regardless of age, because like, especially the algorithm part, or at least given people the choice, the choice of like, when you engage on this social media app, do you want it to collect data and tailor an algorithm or not? And at least let us choose not for those of us old school folks who would rather just be like it

54:28was when it first came out, where it was just, you just saw stuff from the people that you follow. And it kind of just showed up chronologically. You didn't have to worry about missing it because you're, you're, your infinite scroll didn't exist. They didn't flood it with other stuff that buried the things that you actually wanted to see. Like, I would love to go back to that. But in any case, yeah, the age restriction is, is I'm curious about it. Me being not, you know, a tech guy, not a software engineer, anything like that, like how that actually works. This idea of like restricting the device or identifying the device as a device being used by somebody under the age of 16. It sounds like a way perhaps to do it. But you know, kids are imaginative and I'm sure they'll find to work around no matter what's there. And I'm sure the companies probably won't try too hard to like really, really make sure this thing works. I'm sure they won't care. So under 16s, get, you know, find ways around the restrictions or whatever. But, you know, I'm pleased to see it. I am, you know, part of me is, I don't know what the right word would be. Not concerned. But I guess

55:33just curious at how the students that I have now granted I teach juniors and seniors. I think I've mentioned before they come in like this current students from the last couple years versus students, juniors and seniors when I was first entering the classroom in the 2000s, like they have progressed so far in terms of their understanding of everything from politics to just things going on, obviously around the world. And they have such more, such a more developed, better developed critical lens on things than students in the 2000s. And I don't blame the students back then, of course. But anyways, for example, I have a set of students. I won't describe them in too much detail because, you know, obviously like, I don't want, anyways, I have a set of students that are what I would consider in my head, in my head, when I look at them and hear them talk and see what they write in my head, I'm like, oh, these are the type of folks that grow up to like burn waymos

56:38and like be, you know, call Antifa and be out there boxing with like right-wing streamers who show up to try to have some kind of protest in a city like these folks are like very far left and very active in that kind of way. And I'm seeing more and more of that among my students and they're certainly not learning it from our school system. So, you know, that leads me to conclude that they're, you know, they're picking up and learning a lot of these things on social media in their discord spots and just, you know, gaming in all these different areas. So part of me is just curious, curious, how much of this effort to now finally do something about social media, to now finally try to keep young folks off of it, how much of that might be tied to the powers that be realizing that young folks are a lot more active than they used to be and that doesn't both well for those who want to maintain a status quo and just keep getting away with everything. Like the fact that my students are so up and arms about flock cameras, I might have a hell to not even know about flock

57:40cameras like, but they aren't up and arms about it. And I've got to say to students that I could kind of picture in my head, be in the type to like go out there fully covered up, mass and everything and be sown down in flock cameras. They haven't said they do, but like they fit the, they fit the profile of the type of folks that do that. And you know, I wonder if the government here is like, we got to nip that in the bud because folks are waking up and we don't want them to wake up and realize how much we are taken advantage of the masses. So, you know, curiosity there. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, man. I, you know, the phenomenon that you are naming there around like, I feel like we have seen backlash, right? Like the like, frankly, the forced sale and purchase of of TikTok, like the purchase and co-opting of Twitter, right? They're like, right. The, for what it's worth, the slices of social media that, that resulted in like deepening knowledge

58:44about how systems of power work in the world and, and almost by default, the, the, the shift left word of people, communities, young people, especially as a result of that, we've seen hard clap back from. And yet they still can't squash it, right? Like, right. We still see the genocide, live street, genocide's live streamed to our phones. Like, you know, we still see the cops out here, ice out here, murdering people in the streets like it's, yeah, that dynamic is very real. And all that's the same. And well, I have long like, set in my life and told, you know, unsolicited advice sometimes to parents, I know that I'm like, listen, as an educator, as a former administrator, my advice to parents would be to keep your kids off social media for as long as humanly possible. And that, yes, there are positive things that come

59:47from social media. But the risks, I think people genuinely, even still today, like don't fully appreciate. And, and it is one of those things where we need, I'm glad to see government hopefully taking action here, although Gavin Newsom is utterly unreliable as a, as a, as a good actor in the world. And so hopefully he signs this, but, you know, we'll see, he might not, he might veto it and then go on Fox News and talk about something crazy. So we'll see. But, um, but like to the extent that this does become law, I think this is the kind at least one important step in the right direction of like protect setting conditions that put limits on the bad actors, the corporate actors here that are praying upon young people. And, um, where the negative effects of their products are so impactful on schools, we've talked about this a few times over the years of

1:00:52like what really is the cost? Like we need an economics PhD professor to like a PhD type to like try to figure out the actual costs that these platforms have levied upon schools. When you, when you factor in like the amount of hours of time that school staff spend investigating fights, bullying, conflicts, uh, self-harm ideation, all this kind of stuff that originates or like propagates on social media, it's, it's for sure in the like hundreds of billions of dollars nationally, right? Um, when you think about the, um, you know, the like mental health toll, right? The amount of therapy that has had to be purchased because kids don't have a positive self image of themselves that was that was generated primarily or driven or exacerbated by social media. Like how much does that cost in aggregate? When we think about the the medical,

1:01:53the hospitalizations of kids who develop eating disorders or these kinds of things, significantly driven by what they are exposed to on social media. Like what is the cost, you know, what is the cost of all this? And then we say these companies should have to bear the, bear those costs, right? Like, like, and we should prevent them from being able to inflict that harm on an ongoing basis. And so I'm excited that like from a child welfare standpoint, this feels very important to me. And from a like, schools should not, like schools should be places of child development and learning. It shouldn't just be places where we're having a poor, enormous resources into mitigating the harm that these companies are doing to kids and families. And we, like, those are, that is a poor use of public tax dollars. Like we should be spending it on positive things, not just defensive strategies. Yeah. Yep. You said it there. I would love to see,

1:03:01I would love to see some of those figures. I'm sure they're beyond belief and also the amount of money that these folks have made is also beyond belief. And depending on how things go, that the, the, the, the final human toll of all these things, not just the social media, but going back to the AI, the toll might also be beyond belief. Hopefully there'll be someone around left to even ponder it. But we shall see. We shall see, shout out to folks who have been behind, you know, these efforts that we just talked about to try to do something to stand up to these companies and protect our kids, like even if it's, you know, implementing age restrictions, limiting how much AI could be used, limiting how much screen time for different grade levels. Like all these little things, they do matter, I think. And I know certainly there had to be so many

1:04:01folks working on this and trying to make it happen. So shout out to everybody involved. I mean, heck man, this is, I can't say it enough. These tech companies, we shouldn't just allow them to do whatever the hell they want. They've already had such a large impact on our classrooms over the course of the last several decades. And it's okay to slow it down a little bit and do what's right for our young people. And I'm for it in every sense, although, you know, I would go even further if it were up to me, but you know, it ain't up to me. Because if it was, I was just pull the plug on all the joint. I'll just shut it all down for a minute more than a minute. And let's just like go out somewhere. Let's touch grass and breathe and remember that we can live and function without it. Rustin over. Yes. Yes. That'd be my platform. I'm going around California and freaking whatever type of car that was where you had to use your feet to like pedal and to break. I wouldn't get far. I wouldn't get far, but that would be the totality of my campaign. We could do it and still be happy.

1:05:07We could maybe happier. Let's be real. Maybe, maybe happier. Jeff, that was a lot in that episode. I think I think pretty much all of it was like in the right direction of things, like, you know, positive developments, if you will. So that's a good one. It's not a doom and gloom except for, you know, when sometimes maybe I took it to a doom and gloom space, but, you know, pretty, pretty good stuff happening. Anything else before we get up out of here for this week? Yeah. Well, I'll just co-sign on that, man. Well, I can't remember the last time we had, we first of all talked about six stories and all of them were either like teacher saves 900 kids or like whole bunch of button paid for politicians came together and decided like, let's do something positive. This is great. You know, have we solved all the problems of the world? No, but like steps in the right direction. And, you know, the pushback that people are levying collectively, parents speaking up kids, protest things, speaking up like, let's keep using our voices out here

1:06:12and centering what we need for children and families because, because that's our, that's what's important, right? Who cares about these Silicon Valley companies? They're not our priority. They are not. And they're rich enough, like, they're rich enough, like they got it. They're good. How much money does one need? And we should take that money, but it's a topic for another discussion. No, the discussion there, but yeah, something ought to be done. Man. All right, folks, thank you so much for joining us on all of the above. And obviously, we say it every time and probably, you know, tired of hearing it, but it really means a lot to us us being a two-person operation for you to leave a written review or in rate us five stars, thumbs up whatever, whatever it is on your particular app that you use to listen to us. AOTAShow.com. We used to have like weekly guests. It was a big deal.

1:07:17And, you know, so much of those conversations are timeless. So they are all hosted on our website, aotashow.com, all of our super dope guests and some of the other things there as well. So definitely check that out, especially if you're new to our program here. We really hope everyone's off to a fantastic school year. Or, you know, if you have no connection to schools, you just like hearing about, we know what's going on and staying in the know. We love that. We love that. And we will love it if you recommend our show to somebody who you think might be interested in hearing some of this some of this commentary around the news and headlines and education. So that about does it for this week. All right. Remember, we love y'all. And now it's time for you to go ahead and get to class.