Noma’s Response to the Allegations Is a Disaster

0:00All right, Ray, we're going to get into this no more stuff, but can I tell you a quick story? Do you, do you follow Formula One at all? I do know. Okay, so I don't either, but there's a podcast that I listen to that covers them. And there was an interesting, it's like a four and a half hour episode on Formula One. The history, the business relations, how the industry has kind of grown over time. And there was a particular part of the episode that I listened to that tracks very along with I think what our industry is dealing with. And it's in relation to safety. So I want to tell you this quick story. So Formula One, horrible track record part in the pun of just abhorrent safety issues. In the 1950s, there was 15 driver deaths. And it was, quote, an era of optional helmets and minimal safety. Obviously, the cars have changed over time. But then it's like, you track the decades, 1960s, 14 deaths, 1970s, 12 deaths. And then it ultimately culminates to this driver named Arton Senna. I'm saying that incorrectly. But in 1994, he passed.

1:01And famously, the podcast source were saying three million people showed up to his funeral. It was like just this crazy, he was this beloved person. And the place where this culminates and the kind of point of my story here, is that quote, these tragedies triggered an immediate mandate for safety, led by the FIA and the Grand Prix drivers association. Innovation such as the Hans device mandatory since 2003, higher cockpit sides and more recently, the halo in 2018, were direct responses to these and subsequent incidents. And then here's the kicker, which is I hope what I can kind of like bring home and land the story with as it relates to our industry, not necessarily bullish that it's going to happen. There's been zero deaths since all of these safety concerns have been implemented in Formula One. In my research, I found that in 2015, there was a guy who had an injury in 2014, and then he died in 2015 because of those injuries. But like that's pretty shocking for an industry to like take something so seriously,

2:02make these changes that are, you know, like industry-wide. I know that there's like, and people are going to probably frame me in the comments for even suggesting this story. But I think it's like, it really inspired me on this idea of Formula One is run by one big head honcho organization. They can make these sweeping changes because like everybody comes to the track to race at the same time. It goes around year. The schedule is, and that totally doesn't relate to restaurants because we're all these disconnected things. But I find it hard to believe that there isn't like this industry-wide pulse that is being taken on kitchen culture at the moment. And I know that like you and I are no strangers to like, we covered Jacob Bicklehop stuff, we cover stuff that's happening in all sorts of Michelin environments. We cover abuse that's happening in even non-restron environments with people like Joshua Weisman. And so all of this kind of like, I wanted to set that stage because I want for this to be a productive conversation. I'm going to unfortunately have to give the caveat on a disclaimer at the beginning of this episode that this is probably Ray and I's fourth episode on Noma in the context of us doing

3:05episodes together. I have certainly done a bunch of episodes on Noma in the past. We have a pre episode to this that if you want to go ahead and listen to that to get some context on what is transpired in all of this kind of like coming to a head. I had some folks reach out to me that said, I don't have social media so I appreciate you guys covering this on the show. And so all of that has been really really cool to hear from you folks. But the reason that we're shooting this, the reason that we're putting this out in the context and timing that we are is because Noma and Renee both responded in conjunction with the New York Times piece. And so that's what we're going to talk about today. I think that my goal is to try to spend the first probably 15 minutes of this episode getting folks caught up on like the facts, the things that have been reported. I'm probably going to be reading a lot and Ray and I Michael a little bit back and forth. But then I think both of us Ray have come with some notes on just how our heads have changed. I mean, maybe not even changed for you. I know that for me, I'm certainly in like a different state of mind coming off of this response because to be honest, man, like that's what I was waiting for.

4:06I wanted to like leave the door open, have the opportunity and the response kind of fell short for me. And so maybe that's where we'll start. I don't know if you wanted to give any housekeeping things in the beginning, but you know, I'm obviously going to come out of this focused on performance, long-term industry, health, and where do we kind of go from here? But I'm curious to kind of hear your thoughts to kick things off. It definitely feels like a paradigm shift. We've texted about this and I know we've both gone back and forth on coverage because we don't ever want to be quote-unquote chasing the story or the clout of the day. But you know, there's so much going on with the conversations of, I mean, David Chang has been brought up and this has been so many different, just illusions to different chefs, right? I think the other thing too is when I built wine cook thoughts, it was the better the industry. And a lot of the issues that I saw in I talked with chefs about seem to just be waved away in pursuit of a world-fifty best in pursuit of a Michelin star. And so to see this moment, to see the response and we can get into the critiques

5:12of it, but just to kind of see everything that's going on, it's pretty disheartening in how the actions were taken by Noma. It's also heartening to see Jason and the plethora of other people that have come out against this. I have a lot more to say, but I'll just say if you watch their content, I feel like at every moment we've tried to, you know, when we first covered them closing, when we covered the pop-up, we've really tried to even just give them the benefit of the doubt that they were trying to make things better. And again, I don't know that I knew the depth of everything that had happened in this New York Times Post and Jason's work has done a ton of revealing and we covered this in the last post. But I will say that for me, it's like, I've given you enough of my good graces. I've given you even enough of my, this is awful really. And I hope you can get better. It's like, no, this is well deserved what is going on. And I think the the response proves that even further. So that's how I'll start. Okay, so let's dive into the responses, the new content from both Noma, René Ritzepi, as well as

6:17the New York Times. And I'll get into the journalists that they chose for that and her quality of reporting as we kind of go into each of these things. Noma on Instagram has 1.5 million Instagram followers. It's kind of crazy, Ray, that all of this has been going down on Instagram. I think you are going to look into Noma actually had a precedent comment to Jason's content. So we're going to cover the public stuff that is available as the of the time we're recording. I have actually weirdly been screenshotting a lot of stuff lately, Ray, too, just because in this age, I think people are deleting stuff. So I'm going to start with Noma because they have, as of recording, 9,750 likes on the post they made and 1200 comments, which is about a third of what René has on his stuff. And so at the risk of being too laborious and reading some of this stuff, I think it's maybe important for people who, like I said, don't have Instagram. Or if we're going to reference some of this stuff later on in the episode, like I said, I'm going to be reading a lot. So this is only three slides. It's like a carousel of text that you can kind of look through. Quote, we're aware of the stories being circulated online and want to be clear. These claims do

7:18not reflect the workplace Noma is today. Although the stories appear to date back many years, we take them seriously and are looking into them carefully. Since that time, we have improved the process to address concerns. We are continuing to do so with an independent audit that ensures we keep our standards high and our workplace safe. We care deeply about our team and our industry. And when criticism has been raised in the past, we have listened. That's why we've made meaningful changes to transform our culture and workplace over the last several years, including a fully paid internship program, improved hours and time off, expanded benefits and dedicated HR team, leadership training, mentorship programs and more. This work is ongoing and we will continue to improve. We're committed to making Noma a supportive and rewarding environment for everyone who works here. We're proud to be a place shaped by exceptionally talented professionals who care deeply about their craft and moving our industry forward. Now, let's go to Renee Ritzepi, who posted at the same time, it has again, triple the engagement if we're just counting likes and comments here. A bunch of people have made like parody stuff. The memes are out of control on

8:20Instagram right now. I'm trying not to laugh because it is just like this crazy situation that we're living in. I'm not trying to, you know, like make comedy of this stuff, but there's people who are like really going off the rails. And so Renee's post is four carousels long. He has less followers than Noma does, but it really seems like the optics are focused on Renee in this situation. And I think part of the way that the New York Times pieces positioned also kind of lends itself to this. And I don't think it's unwarranted. So I'm going to read Renee's piece and then I'm going to kind of turn it over to you to talk on the Instagram content that we've seen. And then we will go back to the New York Times piece that came out and why that all in the timing sense of things. These two posts were posted as I was told two hours before the New York Times article. This is very quick. Yeah, well, from a damage control, we talked about this being potentially a PR, coordinated thing. I have a hard time believing that they're, you know, like, again, we're going to get into it with the New York Times piece. Okay, let's read Renee's quote, I want to address past stories around my leadership in the kitchen that have surfaced recently.

9:22Although I don't recognize all the details in these stories, I can see enough of my past behavior reflected in them to understand that my actions were harmful to people who worked with me. To those who have suffered under my leadership, my bad judgment or my anger, I am deeply sorry and I have worked to change. When I first started cooking, I worked in kitchens where shouting, humiliation and fear were simply part of the culture. I remember standing there as a young cook thinking that if I ever had my own kitchen one day, I would never lead like that. But after we opened Noma and the pressure began to grow, I found myself becoming the kind of chef I had once promised myself I never would be. No matter how this, how real this pressure felt to me at the time, it should never justify losing my temper. A decade ago, I began speaking openly about my behavior in the kitchen, the outbursts, the anger and even at times physical aggression, where I shouted and pushed people, acting in ways that are unacceptable. I was not able to handle the pusher, small mistakes could feel enormous to me and I reacted in ways that I regret deeply today. I knew I needed to change and I wanted to change. Since then, I have been determined to understand my anger and deal with it differently. Over the past decade, this has meant therapy, deep reflection and stepping away from leading the day-to-day service. I've found better ways

10:25to manage my anger and I'm still learning. The organization we are today is very different from the one we started with. I'm grateful for our team and the way they have helped us transform our kitchen culture and their dedication to move the industry forward. A team that makes me want to do better every day. I cannot change who I was then, but I take responsibility for it and we'll keep doing the work to be better." And just really quick on the comments and the like it's very hard to get a sense of because there are so many mutuals that I have with both Noma and Renee. There are like my people that I follow that follow me are like sorted at the top of the comments and there's like a lot of hearts in those and also people that I don't follow that I do have just seen their content and I think the algorithm knows that we're in each other's orbit. Those are like a lot of hearts, a lot of positive chef applause. We love to hear work about chefs being better leaders and then it's kind of like after you get past those, which is so weird that Instagram does this from a sorting perspective, then it goes into like negative town and then you can kind of

11:30find a mix of both as you kind of go down those. That is not the same of what I'm seeing on Noma's post, which is like already at the beginning, it's like big paragraphs of people that are upset. And so that is the place that I think unfortunately, there are spots being the way that it is and the way that it is not necessarily a conversation. It's like a PR statement as opposed to like we're reconnecting with some of these victims where you know like there's a law firm that's being involved here. There's obviously topics that I'm going to get into when it comes to like repercussions and maybe that's like a good place to kind of like frame where I'm going to kind of go with this where this was an attempt at accountability like taking accountability and with saying that you're sorry saying that you know like this stuff definitely happened. I think the place where people get upset is the fact that they don't really seem to be repercussions. And so I'll you know like definitely go on into it later on those topics because that's where I'm kind of where my head's currently at. But on the Instagram piece, I was curious your reaction when you first saw this because you

12:32I think texted me and saw this first that this got posted. Yeah, and you you had alluded to the comment. And so before all of this, this is how Noma first responded to these allegations. It's a post from a week ago. It has the True Love's band audio on it. And they say we're aware of the stories referred to in some comments below and want to be clear. These claims do not reflect the workplace Noma is today. We care deeply about our team and our industry when criticism has been raised in the past. We have listened. They gone to you know, basically talk about how they're proud of the work they've done. Yada yada yada. And so the first first thing is you you responded in an Instagram comment. You didn't even post on your page. And so when I saw this and I think we you might have had this phrasing, but I we were talking about this offline. This felt like a response for investors. This felt like a response for people with stakes in Noma. People that have a financial interest in Noma. And what made me live it and what it's going to make me very angry is, you know, my goal with doing content is to always elevate the line cook the shaft. So

13:36the person that was unseen. And you have 14 million impressions. You have all these people saying, hey, Noma, you had a really shitty work environment. You had really, really bad outcomes. You've you know, ruined people. You've made people that want to work in fine dining. And this has been something that's been across the entire industry. You have harmed people in a way, whether it was physical abuse, whether it was mental abuse, whether it was just killing their passion for food. Are you even going to respond? And the only time they responded is when the New York Times goes and posts and you might say, oh, well, they posted right before I'm sure they had knowledge. The only time you're going to respond is when it plays like the New York Times that can damage your bottom line that can damage ticket sales to the pop up and that can damage the actual money you make. That's the time when you respond, not when the thousands and thousands of workers in the food industry are telling you, hey, this is something that has really affected us and better negative. Are you going to acknowledge this? Are you going to save? Sorry. Are you going to do more

14:37than say you're working on it? But then it didn't seem like it was really fixed in from the 2016 or 2015 post. And then it went onward. Like you didn't do what you said you would. Are you at least going to recognize us? And Noma didn't. And Renee didn't. And that's what really pissed me off. So to and just the lead up of if you see the comment first, you obviously didn't want to bring too much light to it. It's posting as usual. And then a coordinated post between Noma and Renee, as the New York Times finally exposes is like, it just shows that they didn't care. They don't care about the cook, the worker. They didn't care about that side of it. And it was really disappointing because they have Renee has tried to paint himself as a champion of I've done bad things in the restaurant world, but I want to work on being better. But even these actions were all just in self preservation. It wasn't in a I'm going to acknowledge the people that were affected by this. So digging into the New York Times piece, it's really important to acknowledge the reporter who did this. Her name is Julia Moskin. And if that name sounds familiar, it's because

15:40she did the 2024 Noma. Noma is like, this was published in January of 2023. But she was the one who did the Noma is closing piece, which also was this kind of like partnering with Noma to be the PR quote unquote voice of obviously giving some of the context. She's an incredible reporter in making sure that she's giving like she talks about the, you know, like stories of Renee losing his temper in that piece. She talks about the profitability. She talks about the unpaid stagiers. She not only talks to Renee, but she talks to that person who also has come out pretty strong in all of these abuse stories. I'm almost positive. She references herself in this way of the fruit leather beetle woman in the way that she is discussed in that in that piece. And so Julia Moskin on March 7th puts out this piece called punching slamming screaming a chef's past abuse haunts Noma, the world's top rated restaurant. And the subtitle is dozens of former employees say Renee Ritzepi inflicted physical and psychological violence on the staff for years and quote.

16:46And what's also important about Julia is that she also did the piece on the willows in for the New York Times that I covered the way back when this was the emotion podcast. And so this is not somebody who like is just getting into this because this is like a hot story in the restaurant world. This is someone who like has an in-depth understanding, I would say, of how both the pedigree of some of these chefs kind of like traces back from a lineage perspective. And then also has the context to understand how high-end fine dining, Michelin, the interconnected global, you know, like cuisine of people going and staging different places to kind of come back and bring their, you know, cuisine around. And how a lot of these businesses can kind of like have this negative tailspin downwards and nose dive. So right, I don't know if you had specific quotes from the New York Times piece that you wanted to to cite. The thing that I think is worth talking about is the first story in this piece because it kind of like leads into my

17:46frustration around Renee lying. And so I want to start with that. And then maybe I'll give my piece on Renee's unfortunate behavior here that I'm upset with. And then I'll turn it over to you. So this is actually from the beginning of the article quote on a February night in 2014 in the middle of a busy dinner at the acclaimed Copenhagen restaurant Noma, the founder Renee Ritzepi order the entire kitchen staff to follow him outside into the cold. He was shoving a sous chef in front of him, a young man who had put on techno music, a genre that Mr. Ritzepi disliked in the production kitchen. Far from the dining room, it was where unpaid interns worked 16 hour days performing tasks like picking herbs and cleaning pine cones to adorn Mr. Ritzepi's celebrated new Nordic dishes. Mr. Ritzepi taunted the chef over and over as about 40 cooks in short sleeves and aprons formed a usual circle around the two men. It was not the first time they had been forced to participate in a public shaming according to two chefs who were present. Mr. Ritzepi escalated the attack, punching his employee in the ribs and screaming that no one would go back inside

18:46until the chef said loud enough for all to hear that he liked giving DJs oral sex. His co-workers stood in silence until he breathlessly complied. Then they filed back into the kitchen and returned to work. The episode was never mentioned again. Dozens of former employees described other violent punishments and said silence among the staff was customary afterward. Quote going to work felt like going to war said Alicia and now a chef in London who was in that circle and asked that her surname not be used because she feared retaliation. You had to force yourself to be strong to show no fear. End quote. And so that kind of leads me into this first page, I would say, of Renee's response. Where if you remember, I'm not going to read it word for word again. He basically says, quote, although I don't recognize all the details in these stories. And to me, it's like that is such a blatant lie of what you told in some of these other pieces where you said I never was violent to anybody. We talked about the frustration

19:48around like it's still not okay to bump into people while you're moving about the kitchen. There's better ways to, you know, like just be a decent co-worker in some of these environments. But when we're hearing about not only happened, but it happened multiple times, it was like a public thing. I'm trying to rack my brain around what would make you forget something like this. This is not even like that long ago. This is 2014. And it's stories of you punching people. And it is I don't recognize all the details. It is so glaring that this was a lie in the way that he when given the opportunity with all of these media outlets. It's like he just painted right over it. And that is the thing that I was really hoping to see in a response. That's why I left the door open. It was to the person that I punched to the whatever whatever to like all of these people have been reached out. It doesn't even need to be public. I want to also make that very, very clear. There's another publication called The Grape Reset. I don't know if you follow out their stuff, right? But it came up and as I was researching some of this stuff, they kind of

20:50summed it up better that I probably have so far in the episode in a quote that they shared. And they're going full gun hosting like Noma is over. The end of Noma is what they're calling it. And so from that piece, it says, quote, since Mr. Redsepi was first captured on camera, screaming at cooks in the 2008 documentary, Noma at Boiling Point, he has made several public apologies in a 2015 essay. He acknowledged that he had been, quote, a beast who pushed and bullied his subordinates in a 2022 interview with the Times of London. He expressed regret about his past saying that he never hit anyone, but probably bumped into people and, quote, and so like that's just false. That's just not true. And again, with the door open thing, if it is not true, that's the time to like say, I stand by the fact that I was not violent, but he's not saying that. And so the fact that he just like refuses to, that's why I talk about this attempted accountability. Like it's like, it's saying I'm sorry. It's saying like I was, you know, not necessarily good in the past, but it refuses to say that he was violent if I'm not mistaken.

21:54And so that's kind of where I stand with Renee so far. I do want to get into the lack of repercussions and how that relates to accountability. That was my big thing that I was really hoping for. And that I was like, come on, man. And it just not only didn't do it, but it was like it made it worse to me. Go ahead, start with this clip. It's been hard. I keep, we can't share it because it's Instagram story. And it's like insane to get off. Sure. But so this is a service at Noman. And the background for this is he's chastising a chef for having the wrong time. Not like the clock, the wrong type of time, the herb. So, and I've been in kitchens like this. It's awful. And so I just want to share this before I go into the story. Don't stop this bullshit. If you can't answer, don't start it. I'm not in the mold. It's a time or not. It's normal time. You know, what would say we used an agreed off? Yeah, it's limit time. It was limit time. It was limit time, right? So first off, wouldn't, wouldn't joke. But that clip, firstly, if there

23:00was PTSD that I felt that, but that clip just encapsulated what I think he actually was behind the scenes from these reporting. And they go on to say, quote, the times is independently interviewed 35 former employees who was a countertrace of pattern of physical punishment. Mr. Ritzepi inflicted on his staff. Between 2009, 2017, they said he punched employees in the face, jab them with kitchen implements and slam them against walls. They described lasting trauma from layers of psychological abuse, including intimidation, body shaming, and public ridicule. Mr. Ritzepi, they said, threatening to use his influence. And this is like, I would see all the physical stuff is awful. But this is where it just gets like for me darker, because then it's also like your livelihood uses, threatening his influence to get them blacklisted from restaurants around the world to have their families deported or to get their wives fired from their jobs at other businesses. So can you just imagine like moving out to Copenhagen, you bring your families to something you want to pursue. The chef is a total a hole. He disrespects you. He treats you

24:01wrong. Or heaven forbid, you picked the wrong type of time. And he goes, not only am I going to ruin your career, but I'm going to get your wife fired too. I'm going to destroy your livelihood threatened to destroy it, whether or not he had that role. I don't know how it isn't Denmark. I'm sure he had a lot of weight there. That is, that is, that is insane. You, you are going into work a job. And the person that is the all-knowing being in that restaurant threatens to not only ruin your life, but ruin your partner's life at a different job, a different, no responsibility to your work. That is just such a sadistic ego, like just insane behavior. The story of the chefs being punched during service. And so I said this in the in the reaction video in the iceberg video where it's like he has a track record of not being able to manage the fact that it's not only managing, but some weird godlike complex to of like of trying to sabotage allegedly according to

25:03these posts. If that is the case, which he has not said wasn't, then you don't deserve to own a restaurant, dude. You don't deserve to manage people in food. I'm sorry, you don't, you don't, like that is, it is next level insane. Because a lot of these people and I saw comments, you know, there was the, and I'm going to, I'm not going to be quote, word for word, but it was a lot of people are like, well, people have free will, don't they? They have free will to go work there. And for a lot of people, this is traveling and spending a lot of money and there's work visas involved and international stuff involved. And like, it's not simply as easy as going back. Or if you do this, you are taking a lot of people were taking your risk and it was leaving with simply not an option without a lot of pain with a lot of financial implications and just honestly a lot of like logistics as a whole in terms of how they even got there and how they're going to get back to their home country. So just all around, this just really furthered that fact and the fact that he deflects or doesn't recognize quote unquote, it just angered me to know and because you

26:07recognize that you didn't have the right time and you totally braided people and in the video, you can see how they, how they cringe. This is I'm Jason Wade's story, save stories by the way. And it's like, oh, someone that sharp, but you can't remember when you, when you physically abuse people in your kitchen, like, it's a joke. It's a joke. I want to end with the last line of the New York Times piece and then I kind of want to react to what you just said here. Just to kind of like tie the bow on that, we're going to leave that link in the description if anybody wants to go deeper and read that as much longer than what Ray and I referenced. And again, it's great reporting with as Ray shared like a lot of sources that were included that I can imagine were like coordinated by Jason. I don't have anything to confirm or deny that, but this last line is from a chef named Marco Charouti, a chef in Los Angeles who worked at the Copenhagen restaurant in 2015. He says quote, Noma has become so exclusive that it's no longer a restaurant, it's performance art. And then the New York Times piece says. Marco said that while Mr. Rezepi's creativity remains unmatched, his status as a global leader is

27:11no longer deserved and his legacy is diminished. Quote, what is Renee modeling for the industry now, feeding rich people and exploiting young aspirational chefs. End quote. And so I mean, correct me from wrong Ray, like I've had people send me this who are not industry people. This is like a scathing as it gets. This is like, if Julia was on Noma side, quote unquote, in a, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, you know, like I'm interested to see where this goes in the, the Noma is closing piece. This is absolutely like a 180 flip in my mind posture wise. I know that reporters are sometimes supposed to stay like neutral, quote unquote in some of these situations. But to me, this is not a like she gives big shout outs to Jason. She gives big criticisms to Renee's family in the sense of I'm sure people have heard these stories of Renee's mother-in-law was supposedly managing the internship program. And that was its own toxic entanglement where if interns came to her to express

28:14frustration about the internship program, the story goes that she would just route that information to Renee. And so then it was this whole like mafia, this thing, so to speak. And they talk about Peter Criner, the person who wrote that email to talk to the staff about not mentioning some of the stuff. And so all of this is mentioned in, in, in the piece. Can I just address them? Yeah, yeah, please, please. And I want to say because this is a good point. So if you go into the New York Times comments on this post, there's a couple of quotes I'd like to share to just back this up because I think it's important. Because a lot of people have asked why, you know, what, where is Julia if you cover this? Where has this been? And so I think this is important to read. She says the story was many years in the making even decades. Noma opened in 2003 and suddenly became extraordinarily famous in the food world around 2010, where that became the leader of a huge change that was already happening in fine dining, less focused on Europe, on luxury, on fuss, and more natural and traditional cooking. As became world famous, he also was under more pressure and became more powerful. Then made the kitchen a more abusive place and also made more difficult for me to persuade people

29:15to speak on the record. But I never stopped collecting their stories. And I'm going to read just a little bit more. I think this all ties. I found this the most fascinating part. So someone comments after I read it seems, you know, why haven't you addressed this? She goes, that's a fair question. The times we don't just assert what we know, we need the voices of victims to prove it. It's hard to overstate how powerful Rezepi is in the high end culinary world and how much people feared getting on his bad side by going on the record. Also, many people had mixed feelings because Rezepi also helped them get ahead in their careers. There's not much upside for sources to go on the record. I had a wait until there was a critical mass of people who were both brave and angry. Someone goes on to say that, you know, how good Denmark allowed it. She says it's not an exaggeration to say that Noma and Rezepi transformed tourism in Denmark and the rest of Scandinavia. He is regarded there as a national treasure. Danish journalists have reported on working conditions at Noma for years. But sources told me that because Noma didn't work with the labor union, because many employees were not citizens, there were never any repercussions from authorities. So that's an important point for later. Two more can real quick. But she comments here that it's

30:17a very good point on what this person said that most restaurants are forced to be more organized, more frugal and more professional than Noma was in order to be successful. But since there was a study supply of free labor for Noma, there was no need to change. And lastly, she goes on to say a lot of the employees said that as they processed their experiences at Noma, they realized that there was a major disconnect between how Rezepi said we should treat food ingredients ethically, sustainably and mindfully in how he treated the people in his kitchens. So I think a lot of the questions of repercussion, this and that, good points there. And I think it further is emblematic of why the structure of starting, sit at like all this stuff. It's the worst case of what could happen, is what I wanted to leave. And I thought that she had had so much good insight at the end of that article. And I wanted to make sure it was heard. No, thank you for sharing. I hadn't even stumbled upon that. So thank you for sharing that because that's news to me. And I can sure imagine probably other listeners too. Right. I don't know. Do you want to, I feel like we've kind of repeated ourselves in some regards. I don't want to rehash the last episode. I think people know my thoughts on stashing and working abroad and some of that stuff that I that I think has some

31:21nuance coming into some of this stuff. Again, I think that there's like such a culture shift that is hopefully happening here. But I did want to in line with all of this backlash that Renee has been receiving because I have also received a little bit of backlash with people saying like, I'm a little bit too permissive on Renee. I'm not always on Renee's side here. Or I think that I view this in hopefully a more sober place than I think other people who have like I was a sous chef at Noma. I have been eating at Noma for years. I am an investor in Noma. I like to think that I distance enough from it, but I know enough also at the same time. This is a quick line from one of the earlier episodes you and I did when Noma was closing. I said, quote, I think this is a story of someone in Renee who has an arguably unhealthy love of food and cuisine who experienced runaway success with a project at the right place at the right time and doesn't have the skills or character traits to ask for help. And so to me, I've been reasonably consistent. Maybe I've given

32:21a couple too many like benefit of the doubt moments and chances here, but I think this is something where I'm like, I find myself very, very frustrated coming out of this because again, like, as you've mentioned, Rey, from a leadership perspective, these are the moments, these are the opportunities, these are the like, get on stage in front of everybody and like, tell us what's going to happen because we all look to you as that leadership figure. And this is just a total cop out. And I will say, I will say to that too, Justin is, you know, Jason shared a three minute clip of your analysis on his Instagram. And if you're okay sharing this, I think he shared with you that you know, it was a very, you know, well, well research pointed analysis. And I think what our goal is on the show is to always, you know, we're always in line with the cook with the chef, but we also want, don't want it to just be like, you know, dunking on, we want to really give you all clear information. And we have our opinions and, you know, Justin, I talk about this. Sometimes it's hard for me to rain money and sometimes in terms of this stuff. And not that you

33:23ask me that, but it's like, we want to give you clear information. We want to give you our sense of what's going on. The failures that have compounded for Noma is one that is just like, it's frustrating beyond all belief. But I think the biggest thing for me that I think has to go, I don't think there's always going to be people that strive for success, strive for recognition, strive for the validation of their peers. When needs to go is the God Blake chef, the person sent from the heavens that has all the cooking and culinary knowledge because honestly, like you said there, and what we said many years ago, you might be the best chef in the world, but if you can't manage people and you can't manage a PNL, then how good really are you? If all that success for the guests comes at the burnout and the degradation and the total annihilation of your own staff, what good is it? I've had this issue a lot with fine dining, especially with the pop-up. I scoffed at it when we had it in the episode, we discovered EMP. This food has become food for

34:29a certain class of people, people that can afford it obviously, people with much higher incomes. There is the occasional person that can save up and get there. And so I think like, that's fine because aren't at the highest level is always worth something. But at the end of the day, I think as a chef, you need to remember that the people getting you there are people that likely can't afford to eat at your place, but they can't afford to go to an EMP on the regular. Can't go to a Noma trip on the regular. But what they do do is they sacrifice their lives to go and work for you and cook for you and be there to support you in your dream as a chef. And so I think this idea of the arrogant God-like chef has to end. And I think that's what starts to change in this industry as we stop putting these people in such high regards that it's like nothing they can do is wrong. We praise them for how we praise them, but a holistic picture before we elevate someone to quote unquote, the best thing going right now, I think is key. That's kind of

35:30it's hard to express that sometimes for people outside of the industry, even for people in the industry, but it's like, yes, you have to worry about the gas, but you should equally be worried about the people that are helping you sustain your dream of being on world safety best and getting three Michelin stars. And if you're not doing that, then what what good are you? What kind of chef are you? What kind of chef means leader? Have you ever fulfilled that role if your staff hates you and they hate showing up to work and they can't stand what they do and they're scared, they're terrified, they're intimidated? Have you actually done something good beyond feed people that can afford really expensive food? That's my that's how I end my thought. I love it. And thank you for sharing, as always, I almost visualize because correct me if I'm wrong, you're referencing and maybe not directly, but you probably remember, I think we were talking about this, the time magazine cover, which was Alex Atala, David Chang and Renee Ritzepi labeled on the cover of the magazine as like the gods of food or something to that effect. And just really quick to touch on that, I think that

36:33what we want, it's almost like if you were to be able to, I do this diagram for people in some of our programs where I evaluate them and it's almost like when you're playing a video game, you get like a spider graph. And so if people are familiar in a video game, it's your health, your attack, your defense, your stamina, your magic, you know, like all of these things have like when you visualize that on a graph, it looks like a spider's web. And it's almost like we made these people elevated to that status with just one of their stats maxed out, whether it's innovation or creativity or length of the tasting menu right now, that is so literally I'm maxing on my dexterity stats. Yes, yes. Totally, totally. And so I guess what I'm maybe advocating for, not to totally push back on what you're saying, but it's like what we want, I would hope maybe is if you're going to elevate somebody to that status and pedestalize them, I don't think that we need to use the word God to describe any of us are mortal is the fact that like we're celebrating the right things. So like I have so much admiration for food businesses that are just like super profitable,

37:34super long lasting run, have great culture, they have like done something innovative at like one point in time. I think that the push for constant innovation is maybe like tied up in all of this that I think maybe we can discuss on a future episode. But I think a more well rounded approach to pedestalizing someone is maybe what I've advocating for. I just want to be pedestalizing the right things and applauding the right things as we're moving forward in some of this stuff. That's maybe a transition to kind of talk about where we can go from here. If you're cool to make that transition before we get there, want to talk about some of these repercussions from a historical perspective and just provide a couple of anecdotes on I mentioned at the end of the last episode, it seemed kind of like exaggerated reneg going to jail lawsuits shutting the restaurant down. But like there's precedent for a lot of this stuff. And the reason that I wasn't like calling for it get the pitchforks out type in that type of attitude in that episode is because I was waiting for the response. And also you mentioned some of the complications in getting a

38:37governing body legal action being taken in this because of the complicated nature of this. I don't think it's impossible. I still want to call for it. If something like this can be done, I would hope that Noma's organization would be more transparent about what comes from this investigation, this audit, whatever they're calling it. But really quick to touch on some examples that Willow's in story. There were protests at the restaurant. I had a friend who was working there at the time. And he was like, hey, I already left. But for the people who are still there, they're talking about the fact that people are gathering outside the restaurant and blocking the road. And people protested outside of the willows in. And what came from that was the restaurant settled a 1.37 million dollar class action lawsuit over wage theft and wrongful termination following local protests and plummeting reservations. The property closed in late 2022 and was donated to a homeless services nonprofit. Then we also have stories of places like the spotted pagan New York, where for those that don't remember, that was a total like epicenter. It is what

39:39this piece is calling it of the Me Too movement in December of 2017. The New York Times also published accounts from over two dozen women at that restaurant, where it's a fraction of what we're talking about in the willows in peace. But the owner agreed to pay $240,000 and 20% of profits to former employees in a settlement with the New York attorney general and the restaurant closed shortly after. And so to sum of your points, right? It's kind of like you're actively admitting to the fact that this stuff happened. And there were repercussions back then. Now that we're admitting openly to guilt basically right now, there still are no repercussions. There's no kind of like attempts to you know, do anything here beyond just post on Instagram. And we'll see you next week for the pop-up is kind of how it feels. I don't know if you have thoughts there before I get into some of these other notes that I have. I think this at the end of the day, it's someone had a comment. I forget where I read this, but it's like, this is going to be bad enough for the $1,500 ticket that someone bought is like, are they going to this out on that? Are they going to refund that? We'll see,

40:41we'll see what happens is how are these protests going to go? I know we wanted to come on here and react to this. And I don't think we saw this beginning. We wanted to react to this before the protest because we wanted to give our take unbiased from what happens next. We'll definitely, you know, in some form cover the protests. I don't know it'll be a dedicated episode, but it will be some reaction later. But I think that was the biggest thing is we're putting our cards on the table and how we feel about this before anything else happens because we feel it's important to to just highlight the the issues going on with this. And so I thank you for sharing those examples. I want to end with maybe a counterintuitive thing that might get me some hate if I haven't already given enough that is going to get me some hate in the in the comments here. And I'm calling this a glimmer of hope. And so a lot of the reporting that Julia did, a lot of Jason's stories, a lot of the Instagram and sub stack posts and things that people have shared.

41:42Ray, correct me if I'm wrong, have been like 2023 and earlier at NOMA. And so as I've noticed, leadership changing, different people in different positions, Renee actively stepping out of not just running service, but I'm almost positive they labeled him in that New York Times piece, chief creative officer of NOMA, not chef of NOMA anymore. I personally have not heard stories from that timeline up until recently since leadership has kind of like updated and changed. And so if anything, I'm calling it a glimmer of hope that it's like, and you've talked about this of like Renee leaves. And NOMA is an organization that gets a new ownership team. That's like really going down to the brass tax of it all. It's really. You want to salvage, if you want to salvage the people that work there that, you know, you don't want the people that work there to suffer because of the actions of one man, you want to install a better environment. They built something too.

42:44You remove Renee and you have NOMA, the brand, continue on. I mean, ideally like leadership who is going to be much better, but I'm trying to make the argument that there might be leadership there that is again, hopeful. And so that's something that I want to without naming specific names, but I do want to say that like, since that piece coming out, since whatever happened behind the scenes, I don't think any of us will know aside from like the people who are in those rooms and at those tables. There have been changes that have happened, that have made it so that recent cohorts of individuals who have worked and spent time and interned at NOMA have had a reasonably good experience. And so I really wanted to just put that out there as one thought point on Glimmer of hope. Secondly, as we're talking about business models, I'll bring it back all the way to Formula One. One of the big changes that happened from a success, way of looking at it with Formula One is the fact that sponsorships went like through the roof

43:45with Formula One. What did that allow them to do? Invest in things like safety. Actually make the tracks a little bit more reasonable. Have the teams actually make money so that they could focus on things like the driver's health and their engineering teams just went like bonkers crazy as they could have different designed cars. Everybody in this announcement of NOMA saying that American Express and Rezzy was going to do somewhere between like a million and a half and two million dollars for this NOMA pop-up dunked on it. They were like, oh my god, this is like totally crazy and unreasonable. This is so much money and they're charging $1500 ahead. I'll pause here quickly Ray because this is something that totally grinds my gears where people will, and I think I've mentioned this one, we covered these stories of like lament the price and then also lament that people are not getting paid. And it's like, guys, it costs money to do this stuff. And so it's like if we're going to do this, we need to applaud the fact that American

44:45Express is getting involved. Applaud the fact that Rezzy is going to put the bill for some of this stuff so that the entire team can move out so that they can do the R&D so that they can put people up so they can pay for travel expenses so they can pay for room and board and like open to any of these things being disproven. I talked about like tracking your results here and making sure that you're being transparent on some of this stuff because we've clearly seen that there is like a track record of lying. And so I'm really wanting to make sure that just because we've heard it in a reporting thing, it might not be true. And we will wait for those stories to surface. I'm more specifically want to talk about this idea of I think I laughed Ray in culinary school where like there's demos that Faran Audrey did where his chef coat has like eight logos on it because it's this Spanish bank and this, you know, like tech company and this, you know, like a parallel company is all sponsoring Faran. We all made fun of it at the time, but it was like, was that the solve? Not to like totally turn fine dining cooking into Formula One, but is there a world where we can acknowledge that okay, this way in Noma's words specifically is unsustainable. And so trying to

45:52take some insights from other industries and say like we throw xyz brand partnership behind this and it does actually make it more feasible can actually be more successful. And it means that all of these things that we do want to prioritize innovation, great experiences, cuisine, you know, being pushed forward, all of that stuff can happen. Next, dot point on glimmer of hope. Noma deciding that they're going to expand into additional revenue streams, really bringing it back to the brand and butter content that Ray and I normally talk about like we talk about CPG stuff on the show. This is the first episode of you listening to the repertoire report and on the repertoire podcast. It's like the reason we do that stuff is because from a glimmer of hope perspective on structuring a business in 2026, you're seeing one of the highest caliber organizations from a, you know, awards perspective, obviously from a how they treat their employees. It's maybe not the best doing some of these behaviors. That's the reason why we bring it up. It's not because we

46:52want every single restaurant to be in grocery stores, but it is this idea of, hey, maybe the main restaurant doesn't need to be the main breadwinner for from a revenue perspective for a company. And so all of that stuff, when it announced that Noma projects was going to be launching, it was easy to dunk on it because it was like $30 vinegar bottles, but does that make it so that we can pay everybody. That was a pushback to your point. It's like they have got it right where it's like no projects should have been that, but then they disclose. Yes, it's like, yes, you probably, if you would have had the projects piece, I mean, you had to feel like they really messed that up where it's you probably could have gotten that additional revenue in that could have paid the staff that you wanted to pay totally. And so all of I need to say all of that because there's going to be people in the comments and there are people in the comments who are like, my experience at Noma was not toxic. I loved the people I worked with. I love my experience there. I have a very great, I have a great relationship with Renee. I was very well taken care of

47:55XYZ story. Some of them back in the history books. A lot of them recently. Some of you folks I've spoken with, the meal I had walking through the kitchen, seeing the people in the staff meal area, I was just there in May, like less than a year ago. And so all of this stuff like trying to infuse personal experience, again, decade and a half ago, I was a stash here at Noma. And so all of this trying to just put into context where we're at now. And as Ray shared, we're going to keep an eye on this because it is such a, it's transformed from a like Instagram, you know, like virality thing to now I actually think this has the potential to do some sweeping industry changes that I'm genuinely excited about that aligns with the things that I'm all about. I'm not going to say Ray that this is going to be our last episode on Noma in the same way that like some of the other abuse stories that we've covered. It has been our last. And so closing

48:57thoughts, any insights that we didn't cover are things that you want to make sure the listener keeps top of mind going forward. I definitely think a better restaurant industry is possible. I do think like you said, the Godlike viewing of a certain chef needs to go. And the standards and the were pirates and were different. And we, you might lose your quote, you know, a lot of people see that and they're like, oh, that's cool. That's fun. You need to lose that because it also is what makes the industry awful for people and it makes them quit. I've known, I've known so many people have left the industry. And I love finding it. I just, it's not, it doesn't work. And for those that you might think it works for it really doesn't because the best sketches don't have the were pirates mentality. It's where I modern business operating. I'm a good business practices. And to see those places get highlighted more, I think is what we're going to pay attention to and just continue to keep our eyes on all this going forward. Like

49:59kudos to Julia for putting this together. Kudos to Jason. Yeah, kudos to Jason kudos to everybody who's shared stories and just like been on top of this because if this didn't have the legs or the roots to like actually grow into something, I think we would like just cover it and you know, like included in a bunch of other stories and just say, you know, we'll see where this goes from here. But this is like, I've had people in my feed who like, I haven't seen post in years. I've had people who like don't typically cover this stuff, like do really in depth of right written pieces on this stuff. It's happening in so many group chats. I can imagine like it's certainly happening in a lot of mind, right? And so all of this, I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm going to be an optim, a perma optimist because that's just where my head stands. But it's, it's actually reasonably tied with some cool progress that we're seeing. And so that's what I'm hoping for going forward. If you're new to the show, we do content on insights for the industry, restaurant,

51:02chef, fine dining, CPG content, food media, all that stuff is included here because we want to help improve your repertoire. That's the kind of like collection of skills that you take across your career. And if you have any insights or things that you want to see on future episodes, please let us know in the comments. Subscribe and like the show and give us a rating on Apple podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. And we'll see you folks in the next episode.