Networking and Referrals, the Forgotten Marketing Channel | Un-Billable Hour

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1:00or your favorite podcast platform. Managing your law practice can be challenging. Marketing, time management, attracting clients, and all the things besides the cases that you need to do that aren't billable. Welcome to this edition of the Unbillable Hour. The Law Practice Advisory Podcast. This is where you'll get the information you need from expert guests and host Christopher Anderson. Here on Legal Talk Network. Welcome to the Unbillable Hour. I am your host, Christopher Anderson, and today's episode is about marketing. But to be specific, we're going to talk about something a little bit different that we don't talk about much. That's referral marketing. A lot of our guests and a lot of the buzz and the hype. And if you go to a legal trade show, a lot from trade show, a lot from business trade show,

2:00it's all about digital marketing, paid search, SEO, SGO, how AI is affecting us. With all the attention on that, we often neglect what's really, really one of the most important ways to get new clients into our business. Because prospective clients who come to us from a source that knows likes and trusts us are one, the lowest cost to acquire. And two, quite honestly, for at least for me, the most fun to work with because they come in, somebody before us has decided that they'd be a good match. And so you get that initial, that additional screening that can be so, so helpful. All right, so to get started with the show, in the main triangle, we all know that what a law firm business must do is to acquire new clients. That's what we're going to talk about today. We have to produce the results that we promised, and we've got to achieve the business and professional results for us, the owners. And in the center of that triangle is you, driving it all for better or worse, the owner of the firm.

3:01And so to help you today, we welcome our guest, John Reed. John is the founder and chief relationship builder of Rain BDM. John has a background in law and marketing and sales. So he gets to weave all of that together to help lawyers distinguish themselves from their competition and differentiate themselves in the marketplace, which these days is a really important thing to do. It's busy, it's loud, it's noisy. And to distinguish ourselves is so, so important. The best way to think of John is as a translator who interprets the language of marketing and human behavior for attorneys. And then the language of law for a law from clients audiences. He's a frequent speaker and writer on legal marketing and client development topics, and is also the creator and host of the Sticky Lawyers podcast. I recommend you take a listen. Today's episode is how to play and win the referral game. John, welcome to the show.

4:02Thank you. I'm delighted to be here and thank you for the Sticky Lawyers shout out. No, not at all. Not at all. So John, my intros are always really short. In the intro, I mentioned that you've got this background a lot in marketing, in sales, and that is a good combination, of course, to be able to help lawyers with this. Can you just tell a little bit about how your journey to how you came to be helping lawyers to distinguish themselves and differentiate the marketplace, how you came to found RAIN BDM? Sure. I often say my career is like a serrat painting. If you look at it too close, it's just a bunch of dots, but if you step back, there's actually a trajectory. So I started out in advertising after college and enjoyed that and wanted to pursue an advanced degree, but because I had an undergraduate business degree, I thought, well, let's do this law thing. And I practiced and I enjoyed it. I didn't love it. And thought, well, I spent all this money and all this time on this degree. There's value to it.

5:03How do I service support lawyers? I spent a quick amount of time in legal recruiting back in its infancy. And then I went to Thompson Reuters, what was then West Publishing, and got my sales chops and still hung in the game, had a long career there, and then said, you know what? I'd like to find a different way to bring all of these experiences together to help and find more of that creative avenue that I had been lacking in a sales job. And so started RAIN BDM and it started with just me and writing blog posts and designing ads and it's grown from there. It feeds my passion, I guess, every day and that I can bring all these skills together and have it be received well and have it actually move the needle for clients. And you help clients with more than just referrals, right? Oh, absolutely. I'd say the only thing our team does not do, we do not do crisis communications or hard PR and we do not code websites. But we've touched on just about everything else

6:05in the marketing and business development realm and have great clients that have grown with us and we've grown with them. Excellent, thanks, John. So what we did say, we are going to focus today on referrals. And I think quite honestly, it's really, it's a great topic we haven't really had it on the unbuildable, or at least not in my recent memory, because it's less natural for a lot of people. Some people, I mean, there are mavens out there that I love them. I mean, I wish I could be more like them, but for most lawyers like me, it's not natural. And it's something that we need to do, but it's also so important. But I wanted to start with a title that you had suggested that we ended up using, which was, you know, we said that the topic of the show was going to be how to play and win the referral game. I wanted to just start with why you call it that? Like, why do you call it a game? Why is the referral game? For a couple of reasons. One, it is. And like any game, you have to have a plan and you can draft your team if you want to go with the sports analogy. But also, it can be fun.

7:05It can be rewarding. It does not have to be a slog or a burden. So I think, you know, it's got the format of a game, but it's also got the enjoyability and the personal satisfaction of a game, too. Okay. And what is winning? I mean, games are played to win. What does winning look like in this referral game? Yeah, I think, of course, we can look at it from the quantitative standpoint of, am I getting a return on the investment that I make and building relationships with referral sources. But I think, as you mentioned, referral sources, attorneys, and non-attorneys, by the way, can be some of the most fun people to work with. You can have great relationships. They can become your business partners, lowercase, lowercase B and P, of course. Of course. But I think that that's the payoff, too. I think we spend so much time thinking about the bottom line that we forget, how do I get personally satisfied in the law and the business of law? And I think this is an opportunity to do that.

8:05I decided to bring it because my hypothesis was that our listeners need to hear this. But from your perspective, and you're out there, you're talking about that you're working with lawyers, are generally speaking lawyers doing a good job playing this game in the game of getting new clients? So I'll give you the lawyers response, and then it depends. Of course. You know, it gets trickier, I guess, depending on the firm you practice with and the practice that you have. If you are committed to a state planning only or family law only, and you're not in a fuller service law firm, you have to cast a pretty wide net in the hopes that somebody will remember you at the right time when they encounter somebody who's got that problem at that time. So I think that that's a struggle for people. And I also think there's a little bit of a myopia, a quid pro quo, that I'm going to let you know about me, and hopefully you're going to let me know about you,

9:06and we're going to turn that into a transaction. And I just think that is the wrong way to think about it. Short-sighted, it's not enjoyable. I think people can resent the relationship building when you go down that path with it. I can imagine one of the authors that I read that speaks about this is a guy named Bob Berg. I imagine you may have heard of him, but he writes a book called Endless Referrals. But that's why I kind of wanted his main tenets to it. It's like if you go into it with that mindset of like, I give, I get, or I get, I give more. You're really set up for trouble. But if you only focus on giving, then it goes a whole lot better. And then the getting just happens. And it's not at all the focus of the relationship building. Does that kind of mesh with what you're talking about? Oh, absolutely. I've heard the phrase, and I subscribe to it, and that is give to give. So take get out of there. It's a nice thing if it happens. Right? There's actually, you know, talking about another author again,

10:06and Keith Ferratzi wrote a book called Never Eat Alone. And he talks about filling up his dance car with lunches as often as possible. So I want to call and talk to him. I love eating alone. Like, Keith is ruined my life. All right. Well, that's another conversation we can have. But the idea that if I meet with somebody for a lunch or coffee or a phone call or whatever, and I can help them, help them, and then remove the scorecard, stop the tallying. If it comes back to you, fantastic, if it doesn't, feel good that you helped. Yeah. Exactly. So, I mean, would you call that one of the bigger mistakes that lawyers make when trying to build referral relationships? Yeah. They quantify it. They quantify it. That's one mistake. I think the other thing too, and I think this is something we learned from doctors in particular. Doctors make referrals to specialists because they are good or perceived to be good at their specialty,

11:06or they're good friends. Right. I mean, I had it where, oh yeah, I went to med school with this guy, and he's now a fantastic, you know, proctologist. Go see him. You know, if I broke my leg. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, I think that the other side of my opia is, my opia is that I have to really sell what I do, that I'm good at what I do, or I got to be your best friend. And that's how I'm going to get referrals. And I, as I said, I think that's just so, it's not, it lacks the dimension that you need to be a good referral and receiver of referrals. Okay. So, let's take that then. And just say, all right. So, we're sending a lawyer, one of your clients, somebody else, one of our listeners, out to really do a better job at building referral relationships. Yeah. What questions should they ask when they, when they think they're meeting a potential referral source? How should they get that ball rolling without making the mistakes that we're talking about?

12:06Sure. So, I've got two things that I'm going to harp on today. One is the four questions. And the other one is the grid. Let's start with the four questions. Yeah. That answers your question. We love lists. And then I'm going to tease this right now. We're going to do the four questions right now. And then you've got to come back after the break, listeners. And then you'll get the grid. So, four questions. Okay. Here we go. Four questions. I'm going to say I'm first and we'll talk about afterwards. First question is, what do you do? Second question. Who are your favorite clients or people to work with? Question three. Tell me about some things you've recently done with those clients or that type of person. And then the last question, there's a little bit of an asterisk because you may not have to ask it. If I met somebody like that, what are some questions I could ask them to see if they're a good fit for you? Okay. So, let's break that down. Yeah. The first question is, so you pick with us, it's easy. What do you do? You're not prying. We're all prepared and primed to ask that question.

13:06The second question is the curveball. It's not, oh, do you like your job? How long you work there? What were your sales last year? Instead, it's, who do you like to work with? I'm congratulating you on your practice, your business, whatever. And I want to know where you have fun and what you do, the people you work with. The third question. Tell me about some things that you've recently done. Casey, you've handled, deal that you've overseen, whatever it may be. You're getting that person to talk about their favorite subject themselves, and again, in a very positive way. The other thing is psychologically, and I'm no expert here, but we remember stories better than we remember lists. Sure. So, what do you do? I'm an M&A attorney. What does that involve? Well, I serve as mid-market clients and we handle everything from due diligence and IP audits and employment audits and whatever else. First off, how does that differentiate you from the next M&A guy I meet?

14:07First lawyer I meet. Whereas if they say, we just work with this fantastic startup company, they produce this product. And boy, the guys, the founder's story is unbelievable. And we were able to do this, and it was really tricky. There was this tricky thing about it, and we helped them through it. I'm going to remember that story. And most importantly, I'm going to be able to recount it and tell it to somebody else. Then we get to the fourth question, which is, let's start playing the referral game. If I like you and you fit into, we're going to talk about the grid. You fit into my grid, or maybe even you don't, I just want to know you, I like to help you. So, I can't do your job for you. Give me the script. Give me the tools that I can use to see if somebody's a good fit. And of course, I think one of the things we'll probably talk about, because it comes up all the time is, what about that referral source that's constantly giving you bad referrals? Yes. Here's your chance to set the stage up front. So, you get to ask them, what's a good fit?

15:09Of course, what you also need to do is you need to be ready to do this in reverse. The other person is not necessarily going to know these four questions. They'll probably, if they're breathing, say, well, tell me what you do. And you've got to be prepared to say, well, you know what, I do this. And as a matter of fact, the clients that I like to work with the most are these people, or these types of companies, or what have you. And gosh, I'm really kind of excited. We've been working on this deal. We've been working on this case, whatever. And because of what we've done, we're going to get a really great outcome. And do you ever run into people like that in your world? Really. Well, if you look, I'd love to have anybody who would send my way. And to really make it a good fit, here are the things that I'm looking for. And here are questions you could ask. So we're back to the game, right? Right. Because there is a game plan. Here is part of it. But you're showing an interest in the other person. You're making them feel good.

16:10You're drawing their interest in you. And you're setting yourself up both of you for success. So it's not an adversarial game. And that's really important, too. Yeah, no, absolutely. And the, you know, I want to just kind of tell you what, we're going to take a break. Okay. When we come back, we'll do the great. But before we do the great, I'm going to ask you, the way you just presented the conversation, I want to get into a little bit of a nuance of how and when to present your side. Because, you know, earlier, we've said the focus is really on getting theirs, right? So I want to let, like, help the listeners kind of understand how the flow of this conversation should go for it to be successful. But first, we got to hear a conversation from somebody else. It's really important. The sponsors will make this so possible. So we'll be back in just a second. A study of over 1,000 legal clients exposed an uncomfortable truth. Your clients are judging the way you use technology. And it has even more impact than your actual skill at practicing law. See the data in InfoTrack's ACE report.

17:12Download it now at infotrack.com. Flash ACE-LTN. How many high-value cases did you lose in the past year because your firm couldn't respond fast enough? 81% of law firms say slow response times cost them business. Sometimes nearly a quarter of their annual revenue. That's why you need call rail in 2026. Integrated into your case management system, call rail helps you capture every call even after hours. Spot high-value leads instantly, respond faster, and get the insights you need to bring in bigger cases. Join over 3,000 law firms using call rail to follow up faster, land bigger cases, and drive growth for your firm. Start your free trial at callrail.com forward slash Unbillable Hour. We are back with John Reed. He is the founder and chief relationship builder at RainBDM. We have been talking about the referral conversation

18:15and how to have that initial meet with a potential referral source. John, you went over the four questions. What do you do? Who are your favorite clients to work with? Tell me about some recent things that you've done, recent successes, recent stories, because the story is the important thing. Then basically saying to the person, hey, I might run into people like this. How do I know who the right one is to work with you? That's the four questions. Then I said, when we came back from the break, you also have to be prepared to answer those four questions, and they don't know to ask them. You need to be prepared to do a little spiel. My question to you before the break was, how do you square that with the notion that it's a give-give and not necessarily give-take? How do you work in your part without this starting to feel like a transactional conversation? Yeah. First, let me say this. I love the term elevator pitch. Yes. I can't stand it.

19:15For the very simple reason that elevator pitches always end in a period. They are statements. You're hoping that it resonates with the other person. That's why the four questions, you can't help but ask questions. I guess we can roleplay this in a couple of different ways. If I'm at a networking event, and frankly, people should practice this. Go to your next block party. Go to your next wreck basketball game. If you know what the questions are, then taking the time to sit down and go through them for yourself, script them out on your head. Hey, frankly, write them down first. Work through it. Just like anything else you do to prepare. And then, if you meet somebody and you say, what do you do? Great. You've got the questions to lead them. You can control the conversation. If you're on the receiving end, maybe you don't handle all of that all at once. You can say, I do this. And I'm fortunate enough to work in this firm and we work with these types of clients. Who do you work with?

20:15Whatever. It can be a conversation. It doesn't have to be two recitations. So I think that it's not hard once you put in the time to prepare. And look, as I said, question number four is optional. If you're talking to somebody who's not bringing any value and is not going to be a referral source or whatever, hey, great to meet you. You don't have to put that person in your rolodex. And I'd really just age myself by saying rolodex. But you know what I mean? People still say it. So it's okay. People do still say it. People just say it. Even though I haven't seen one in forever. But yeah, people still use it. Okay, so that's very helpful. So you also mentioned this concept of the grid. And we promised that for after the break. So what are you talking about when you talk about the grid? Yeah. And first up, I'll set up and say, you know, we were talked about mistakes that people make in playing the referral game. And one is that it's all entirely ad hoc. It happens when it happens. I'm going to go to a networking event and we'll see who I meet.

21:16Right? The grid helps you be deliberate. And it's a very, very complicated system. It's a blank piece of paper and a pen. You are simply making a grid. And think about at the center of this grid or the focus of this grid, you're ideal client. You're next best client or the best client that you have now. And if you provide them, they're a company and you provide employment law counsel. What are their other needs? Do they need general corporate representation, tax counsel, litigation, real estate? If you're in a firm that has all these services, you might have that person down the hall. But if you don't, if you are only in the tax area or the employment area in this case, who do I have to know to fill in that grid? Right. So the other columns are the practice areas or the needs of that client, that conceptual client.

22:18And then now you can kind of play bingo, fill in the blanks. And it may be deliberate. I need to go find some people, in which case you're maybe doing LinkedIn analysis or using your other contacts to find the right people. But it also may be, I'm not ad hoc, but it may be that you are at a bar event and you meet somebody. And great, that's one of the blanks that I got to fill in on my grid. You know, there's a little more to it than that. You obviously have to evaluate whether this person is trustworthy, has the right skills, is going to try and post your client if there's that opportunity. But that's a starting point. And so you now have a game plan. You now have a place to work from. And by the way, if you, in completing this grid, know that your client has somebody they work with for real estate. Know somebody that they work with and tax. Get the client to introduce you. Just because you share a client now doesn't mean you can't share another client or refer business to each other later.

23:23And I think that's, that's a safe haven. Right. And then this is what, I mean, what I'm seeing by you talking about this is if you do this, you develop this grid, then when you meet this new referral source in the conversation that we just talked about, you actually have a ready made way to send them somebody that matches the four questions. And just give right away not just like, oh, yeah, one day maybe I'll have something that I can send you. That could be really powerful. Oh, absolutely. And I think this is kind of the value ed with the grid is referrals are not just bilateral. Yeah. And I think this applies in business development as well. Can you, when you run across somebody that has a need, refer between two other people? Right. Or call up your real estate connection and say, who do you know and tax? The other thing, you know, we mentioned the digital age at the beginning of this in your lead-in.

24:23There's this really cool new invention. It's called the phone. It works really well. And that's part of it. But we've gotten lazy, particularly with AI. If we want an answer, we go to a browser or we go to our phone. And I think we need to have a little bit more restraint and say, yes, I may be able to get the answer quickly. But is there a better, more effective, more personal way for me to get that? Right? So if a client brings me a real estate issue and I can't answer it, maybe I call up one of my referral sources and say, hey, quick question for you. Or I'm running into this case and it's got a real estate aspect. And I don't think I can bring you in yet, but kind of pick your brain for a few minutes. That's trust building as well. Now, you've got to be ready to respond, maybe not in kind, you've got to be ready to honor that. But again, get out of this transactional mindset. Right. Yeah, yeah. And I love it. Pick up the phone. I think there was some stand-up community that said, yeah, the phone. That's an app on my phone that I hate when people use it against you. I've heard that.

25:23I've heard that. Yeah. But, you know, that interpersonal is so important because now, look, look what you've done. Like you said, don't, you know, don't abuse it and be ready to respond reciprocally. And, you know, again, get out of transactional. Like, maybe you won't respond reciprocally to that person. Maybe it'll be a different person to call you, but you're just like, you're, you're a person who will participate in that kind of conversation as well. And that's one way. And it's going to be an amazing segue to stay top of mind. So I wanted to hit you with this, right? So we've been talking about this initial conversation. That's what we're going to do in this whole time. And what I wanted to do was ask you about, okay, we've had this initial conversation. Now what? How do you stay top of mind with the referral sources? You know, because they've met you at a cocktail party. They've met you at a networking. But how, like, how do you work it so that they might remember you when the referral is available? And I'm going to ask you to hold the answer to that question to the other side of this break. We'll hear quickly from our sponsors.

26:23We're talking with John Reed. John is the founder of Chief Relationship Builder at Rain BDM. And we'll be back in just a few seconds. Let's face it, you didn't become a lawyer to stress over summaries and analysis. You could hand it off, but you needed assistant you can trust. Co-counsel handles those important but tedious tasks that keep you from being a lawyer. And because it's trained only on expert legal content from Thompson Reuters, it's as precise as you are, which means less stress and more confidence to focus on what matters. Head to tr.com slash co-counsel to discover AI that lawyers swear by. Did you know that at any time, it is estimated that a staggering 5% of all prisoners are wrongfully incarcerated? I'm Michael Semachick, Executive Director of the Innocent Center and host of the podcast for the Innocent. We tell the stories of those who have been unjustly imprisoned and the tireless efforts required to bring them home.

27:25Check out season three of For The Innocent to hear our latest episode with Amanda Knox and more exonery stories. Follow For The Innocent on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or whatever podcasts are found. We're back with John Reed. What I asked John before we went to the break is, okay, you've done that. How do you now stay top of mind without becoming more of the noise that they have to deal with? So, first off, be curious. The four questions aren't a one-time gig. You can pick up the phone or see somebody again, however long later, and say, you know, when we talked last time, you were doing this. And you told me about a client. Has anything changed? The answer doesn't matter. If they say, oh, yeah, I'm in a completely new area. Fantastic. Tell me about that. Who do you like to work with there? Tell me some stories. If they say, nope, same old, same old, fantastic. What kinds of clients are you working with now? Is that change?

28:25But then, tell me some recent stories. Tell me some more stories. So, we're back on the story thing. And again, refresh my memory. How can I be good to you as a referral source? Give me some questions. So, it's built-in curiosity. You've got the script. One, two. Be helpful if you can not just refer business, but if you know somebody is taking a trip, you know, wish them bon voyage, buy a mature book, you know, do something like that. This is no different than client development. Right. It's paying attention. And I think along those same lines, you know, the core of differentiation is being different. And one thing that's not done, or at least not talked about in the referral game, is demonstrate what it's like to work with you. You're not a one trick pony. You just don't want a case and love them and leave them, right? You want to have a relationship with your client. Even if you are doing personal injury and, you know, for God's sake,

29:25you don't see the client more than once, you still want to have some kind of relationship. You want them to remember you. So, the idea of if you were to do the same follow-up that you would have with a client, or, and this happens on the back end, you've gotten the referral, are you keeping that attorney up to date? You don't have to, you don't have to let him in on the whole gig and what's going on. But are you keeping them up to date, or is your only follow-up the referral fee? Right. And that's a big mistake too. Thanks for the referral. Love it. Ten months later, here's a check. There's a check. Yeah. And look, if I'm competing against other people trying to stay top of mine, but I'm the person that's sending you updates every month, there are every notable stage of whatever the matter is, built in top of mind awareness. I'm reminding you that I'm out there. So, I think it's also showing people your professionalism, showing people how you do things. And again, finding ways to stay in touch that are valuable to the other person.

30:27I think that makes a lot of sense. As we kind of bring this home, I think we've given a lot of great ideas for the listeners. So, you know, we've got attorneys who are listening who either have, you know, their newer attorneys and haven't built a referral network or they've been practicing for 20 years, but never really prioritize this. But they know that they've been knowing for a while, but they know they need to get started on this referral networking. How do we get started? Like, just how would you recommend, okay, you want to do it? Here's how you get started. Easy. The grid. Yeah. So, go back to the grid. You've got a vision for what you want your practice to be. Even if you're new, you're going to have a next best client at some point and vision who that person is. Make a persona out. Think about their needs. And then, like, I don't mean to interrupt. Like, all their needs. Think about them all, right? Like, they really just think about it. What do they need in their life? Absolutely. And I'm really glad you brought that up because I mentioned it earlier.

31:28This extends beyond your lawyer network. Right. And Christopher, I don't mean to know your world better than you, but your family law clients, they might have a need for a residential real estate agent. Yeah. Because maybe it's a divorce situation and they've got to sell the house. Maybe they need childcare. Maybe they need a good tax attorney. Maybe they need a good interior designer, right? Whatever wedding planner, hopefully. Travel planner. Like, yeah. Travel planner. Immigration law. Like, like, so many needs. Appliance repair person. Like, everything. Yep. And what's great about the non-attorney referral network is you get to use your client to do that. Yeah. If they've got somebody they like, great. And make that person an asset, a business partner to you that you can use elsewhere. And if they don't, then you can plug your connection in there, too. So I think this goes back to the idea of help. It goes back to this idea of filling in the squares on your grid. And really understanding, holistically, the client's needs.

32:31That's how you become a trusted advisor. Not just by giving good legal service, but if you go beyond that. So I'd say for the new attorney, start with the grid, envision what you're practice, what you want it to be, and the people you want to work with. And then get out there. Start asking people who they know, and what great experiences they've had, and fill in the scorecard. And you've got the four questions to try that. Right. Exactly. Do you have any thoughts around these formal referral networks that particularly new lawyers are always approached with? You should join this referral network. You should join that referral network. What's your feeling on that? Yeah. It depends on the practice. It depends on the organization's group structure. So there is an organization out there. I won't name it, but I think a lot of people know about it, where you may be the only lawyer in the room, or you may be the only people facing lawyer in the room. But then you've got plumbers, and you've got insurance people, and whatever else. If you have a threshold practice, meaning you take whatever comes over the threshold,

33:33then getting referrals from anywhere and everywhere may be great. And it could be very lucrative. And I know people that have had great success. But that particular organization has a very, very rigid structure for their meetings. They actually demand that you create an elevator pitch, and that you repeat it. And actually, the thing that I care for the least is, and that you will make X number of referrals every month, or get kicked out. I work with an employee benefits lawyer once, who was getting hounded by various insurance agents, you know, for employee benefits. Insurance related or any employment relationship. And the person was saying, hey, great, you are affirming your clients, and I'll make sure I refer you one back. You know, quid pro quo, everyone. I don't know you. This is the first conversation we've had. I don't know that I like you. And I'm certainly not going to risk my client relationship on an unknown commodity, as well as the fact that if this is how you work with my client,

34:34then you're not demonstrating enough for me to want to refer you over there. So I think there's that. Very clear. John, we're going to have to wrap it, but we've just scratched the service on so many different things. If people want to reach out to you, get some help from rain. How, how, how can they just have another question or a follow up question? How can they reach out to you? Easiest place, rainbdm.com. Type it in. You don't have to put the www in front of it, actually. You'll get there. You can find me on LinkedIn, John Read ESQ. There's a web forum on my website. My phone number's there. I'm happy to talk with anybody. I'm happy to help for the sake of helping, as long as it makes sense. And this is stuff I really get jazzed on. So I love talking about it with people. Awesome. Thanks so much for being on the show, John. Thanks for having me. And this is Christopher T. Anderson. I look forward to seeing you next month with another great guest as we learn more about topics that help us build a law firm business that works for you. Remember, you can subscribe to all the editions of this podcast at legaltalknetwork.com

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