Neal Brennan On: Talking Back to Your Inner Critic, Why Chasing Validation Doesn't Work, and His Harrowing Psychedelic Journeys

0:00Hey everybody, welcome to the 10% happier podcast buckle up. We've got a great episode. My guest today is Neil Brennan co-creator of Legendary Chappelle show. He's got three Netflix specials, blocks, three mics and crazy good. And he's the host of his own podcast also called Blocks. We talk about how to overcome malaise, how to talk back to your inner critic and his extremely harrowing psychedelic experiences. This is a really good one. Neil Brennan. Welcome to the show. Hello, thanks for having me. I'm a first time long time. Thank you. I appreciate that right back at you. Actually, I once stood next to you at a urinal at a wedding and was so excited, but I had to hold myself back from saying something to you because it would have been incredibly. I feel like it would be massively douchey of me to say who's wedding. So I'm not going to say it. It was somebody we both know and I really had to hold myself back.

1:01I've only been to like four weddings in your life. I mean, as an adult, really? Because I would have recognized you. I'm going to be honest with you. I was mad. I haven't been on this podcast sooner. I'm dead serious. I'll show you emails. I will show you emails. So that's shocking. Of course, this is my particular perception problem. I think it's a common human problem, which is kind of conspiracy depression. It's a depression that lends itself to conspiracy and rumination. It's like a negative. I have conspiracy theories, but only about personal relationships. Okay. So I think I have the same thing, but let me just make sure I understand what you're saying. They kind of think everybody doesn't value me as much as they should. I thought you weren't having me on the podcast because you didn't respect. I would told my publicist to ask you if I could do it. So the fact that this is, and when I say it was like eight years ago, it was when you

2:06started, you needed guests. Yeah. I'm going to be honest. You only have Jack Cornfield on here so many times. So I know where I'll speak. Sharon Salzburg is back. There has the truth is I almost, while we had our members out, said something fan-girly to you at a urinal. So I thought someone hated me for 29 years and just found out they didn't three weeks ago. I almost started crying. It's something I did. I'm not even like why it wasn't on the podcast, but I don't understand what happens because I'll DM people. The DMs are open, guys. If you want me on your podcast. So I DM people and I'm just like, I want to take you to my podcast and they've done it. What's interesting to me is that you have this conspiratorial cast of mine. And your Neil fucking brain. I know, but the problem is a lot of times the fucking goes away and the Neil, the end

3:07in the beer and not capitalized and it's not in the cute e-commerce way. It's a low self-esteem way. And also that the Neil fucking brain and it does not, that a lot of people don't share whatever you think that is. Sometimes I, sometimes I'm on your side. I don't fucking know, I'm on my, and other times I'm like, oh, I kind of agree with them. I kind of agree with the negative. What a Nixon called the negative, Nebob's. Nattery, Nebob's negativity. Yes. There you go. This kind of gets to one of the famous stories about you, which is after the implosion of the Chappelle show, you carried around a little car. Yes. And this did your achievements. Yes. So you kind of still need to do that. That tied his risen. I no longer need an index card of positive attributes. Like a, like, like, like, memento where I need to find myself, my credits.

4:10We should just, just for younger people or the culturally illiterate, we should just fill in some things here. So you were the co-creator and co-writer and often director of some of the most famous segments on what I believe to be the funniest television show in the history of television, Chappelle show. And then the show fell apart for a bunch of complicated reasons that we don't need to get into. And you had a bit of a crisis and were then carrying around a little card in your pocket to remind you that you weren't a piece of shit. That's a well well said. Yeah. Yeah. That's about right. Yes. Yes. That's it. I can't even put a caveat on it. That's basically what was happening. Would you say that is I'm going to use psycho psychological speak here, hopefully not psycho babble, but is that like core wound stuff? I don't know. Truthfully. Because I don't because I don't feel that way anymore. It's a little hard to access the kind of the origin of it.

5:14I think one of the nice things about aging is you just kind of like it's kind of character traits like expire. And I mean, some good, some bad. We just talked about not being a remember stories. What stories we've told and a part of me thinks it's because we podcast too much. And a part of me thinks it's because I don't really give a shit anymore. I'm not I don't think it's important to be like very sharp in every possible, you know, attribute of life and category and and fastidious in every way. And just like, ah, and it's great. The core wound like I don't think I'm good enough. I think part of my problem was like, I always thought I was a pretty good. But then the world would be like, no, no, you're not. I mean, like really? No. So so and that was a big, which was when it was a big like, no, absolutely not.

6:17But you were shouted out on the shows as a viewer, you were you were to me. I thought you were like the alpha omega. I can't explain it. The between me and Dave, there was like an understanding, but between me and Comedy Central, between me and another exact producer, there was always just like a like, flirting. It was always just like, eh, beat it. It's what I call doing the dishes. Like you can come but you got to do the dishes. You won an Emmy for directing the director. I did. I nominated the guy who directed the Oscars in 2003 beat me for directing. You saw the Emmys, the Oscars that you're you'd know was worth. It's like dancers with wolves. I really relate to that. You do? Yes, because I mean, I was in the news business for 30 years and I, you know, on paper, if I had made my own little index card, I had done a lot of things, but I always felt like I didn't get as much respect as the other guys I didn't get as far as many of my peers

7:17made it in the industry. I remember what probably the worst day for me just in terms of my morale as a part of ABC News, we did it. They brought everybody together to take a big group photo in like 2010 and they had all of us in this photo and then they said, okay, everybody else leave except for these core eight. Did they name the core eight? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We all had to sit there and watch them get their picture taken. And that was the picture they ended up using everywhere and all the press. Anything else was. Yeah. I mean, there was literally like a Netflix, one of those three weeks ago. They didn't make anybody leave. But there's plenty. I mean, there's a joke in the blocks. Netflix special I did where Ted Serrano said a party said, it's so excited to be all around all my common heroes and Chris Rock yelled out and Neil Brennan, which is fucking hilarious. Yeah. Even as Neil Brennan. Really? That to me is like getting a Picasso from Picasso.

8:20Do you know what I mean? Like why be friends with Chris Rock? Even if the Picasso drawing is you as a piece of shit. I'm awful and awful. But I also know like I'm the least famous person there in terms of common heroes is like if it's me, Jerry, any Murphy, Chris Rock Dave, I'm not I'm not on there in their category. Like even I know that I'm in a category. It's not a blowout and I know it's not a ball because I've written for them. So it's this is a charisma issue. It's a charisma issue. If I can write again, I don't know what this podcast has become, but if I can write for Chris Dave, Ellen Seth and they're all some of the biggest comedies or I'm determined out whatever. Well, then I can clearly it's not a writing issue. It's not a funny issue. It's like I'm anyone would say I'm funny. Anyone would say I'm a great writer. So it's a charisma issue or it's a it's a it's a performing issue, right? You've had four Netflix specials three and a half.

9:23Okay. Those are really well regarded specials. So it can't be a performance. You know, here's a good and I this is not anything I feel bad about anymore. Like I really don't. This is a truly I'm just explaining what it was like from my point of view that I I can look at it seriously objectively. Like when I say that Chris joke was a clean like no, it was a clean hit. It's a clean hit like it's a fun great joke. So I post a joke yesterday, literally a joke on Instagram yesterday June 2026 and so I'm right. This guy's one of my favorite writers. I'm on stage doing stand up. What did I write? You like like okay, she bell show. What did I write? You don't know what I wrote. You know why wrote this and I'm performing it. But it's it I think it's one of these branding things or something where people go like, oh, you're writer.

10:24They just go like, oh, that guy writes for Dave. So so it's in it's kind of a hard thing for them. It's like when someone says her name's Billy and they go, no, call me Williaming or like, all right, come on. Or better was Hassan Manage started saying, no, I'm Hussain. Hey man, you told me to call you Hassan for eight years. The grooves are pretty deep or another one. My sisters, I don't call them by their married names. Sway for them to get forced. They'll be back. They'll be back to Brennan soon enough. A quick note before we hear from our sponsors, who for the record I actually like we are very diligent to the point of being quite annoying to some of our business partners. Very, very diligent and picky when it comes to picking our sponsors. That said, I get it. Not everybody loves listening to ads and that's why I want to tell you about a way to get this show ad free. It's called 10% happier plus. It's a subscription right inside. Apple podcasts. Doesn't matter what app you're on right now.

11:26You can find it right there. Every episode ad free plus a bonus guided meditation every Sunday from teachers like Joseph Goldstein, Seven A.C. and Vinnie Ferraro. It's 499 a month or 499 a year. Quick note, if you already have my app, 10% with Dan Harris, you're covered. You don't need this as well. It's really for people who just want this podcast ad free. The money does not just fund the show. It also helps us give free app memberships to people who can't afford it. Look for 10% happier plus in Apple podcasts and hit subscribe. We'll be right back after this. You said before that you this, this, this, Sturman Drong, this kind of pain is not as operative for you anymore. Like how did that change? Yeah, I've talked about it at some length, but I did. I was probably 15 times. Wow. Maybe it's up to 20 at this point. 1520, then I did.

12:26Bufo, 5MEMDMT, the nuclear bomb of psychedelics. And it was like, it changed my brain chemistry. Which one? I was go. Both of them. Both of them? Yeah. It was over two years. And then since then, MDMA has been completely in exact process. And I don't know if it could have worked any other sequence. But that's the sequence I've done them in. Not, and again, not by design, not by having to that also not have hazardly, not just like, what is it? So, but it's been, it changed, it changed my essence to the point where people that don't know will come up and go to be like, what's different about you? It transformed me. The 10% happier, I would say I'm, I was thinking on the way over here. Probably 35% happier from drugs. If you want to go, if you want that extra 25%, go to my DMs.

13:28Do them. No, by the way, don't go to my DMs. Because somebody got, I mean, somebody, people will, because I talk about this shit, probably people think I have it and can give it to them. So they were like, hey, where can I go in California for? I'm like, I don't, you got to kind of do some of your own, finally, this is an area that I would, I would like you to do your own research. Please, when you're doing all your COVID stuff and your vaccine stuff, go the extra mile. What is the mechanism by which Iowaska, DMT and then X to C slash MDMA? Oh, that's old guy. Tell me you're old without telling you. I think I'm old, didn't you? What is the mechanism by which this transformed you? It was harrowing. I had an Iowaska experience that was really awful. First one was great. And then the second and third were great.

14:29The fourth was a nightmare because it was with what I call a rickety shaman. Just didn't know what he was doing and trying too much. You know, Iowaska is really, it's a very, it's entheogenic. So it's, I don't even know what the definition of that is, but it's, you're dealing with some real non-linear, I believe, spiritual stuff, right? So you're going, I was thrust into outer space by myself and the universe was going to die. So I was just literally going, hmm. I was, I was breathing. It's one of your terms. It's an Indian, it's breathing thing. Like what do you go? No, would I? No, but one of them, so many of them. Sound off in the comments. I thought I was in outer space and I thought this would be some kind of beacon. I was doing it for three hours, but I knew you were going to be okay. From my point of view, I thought I was in outer space.

15:32The universe is going to die. Saturn, rivers, babies. So came, came to covered environment. I'll show you the photo you can put it on your stupid podcast and I've scared for three days. Had to sleep with the lights on. No, I'm scared of what I don't know. Just I think like some kind of PTSD reaction. Now two ceremonies earlier, I'm doing a flashback. Two ceremonies, I went from being an atheist to believing in God. As I'm in outer space and I'm in like the universe going to die, I was thinking like, I don't we don't need to do this. I believe in the central creation force, we don't got to do all this. So after the bad experience, we'll call episode four where I outer space, whatever, the floorboards in my mind felt like when you go off antidepressants, they got mush. I had to go off antidepressants to do eyewasca. That's why I haven't jumped in a round. I haven't done it for that reason. Maybe one of the, but, but might not. Well, you're not selling it.

16:34You're covering vomit after. Hold on. You're, this guy's getting caught up in the, you're like the guy in the movie ghost. Who's that? It's just wait. So when I went off antidepressants, I would say the floorboards of my mood were a little mushy, right? After this awful eye, eyewasca experience, my floorboards were firmer and higher. That's the best way to describe it. After you went through it. After I went through a harrowing outer space, vomiting on my self experience. After you slept with a lights on for three days. Yeah. So you had to get through the harrowing experience on the aftermath and then... I actually think it had happened before the lights thing. I think it happened. I think it had happened when I came to I was like, unnerved. What is it about the harrowing experience that would have reinforced the floorboards? I believe that these psychedelics experiences are, or chemicals, whatever you would call them. It feels like a software upgrade, right?

17:35When you upgrade your computer, it goes to sleep. This wasn't... You have to... It's basically like kind of going through surgery and you're awake. It's a bit like... How would you change a human spirit and character? You know what I mean? How do you change 50... However many years it was at this point. Experience, life, consciousness. How would you alter that? Not like you say over it, but like, how would that be altered? I think it's through these medicine, chemical, whatever you want to call them. I think that's a way to do it. Do you think you needed the Rickideshaman and the outer space harrowing experience in order to get the benefit or could you have gotten it with all of the positive experiences? I kind of think I had to have the bad experience. I think that's what changes the brain. Again, this is completely theoretical and I don't record this or release it.

18:37It's completely theoretical, but that's the sense I have of it is that the positive experiences are helpful. That felt like the most brain alteration I went through. That was... Okay, so that's the Iowaska number four. Ceremonies five through nine are a nightmare. I might have had like PTSD or something from the fourth one. I mean, at one point in number five, I'm in ceremony. I believe I hear a tiger in the room, like acoustically correct in the room. And then a tiger comes around a table. And it's the only time in my life I went, like, I've never done that. You don't fall for jump scares. No, I'll wince, but I don't do it. I believe that's the domain of a woman. No, I have a joke about my wife just constantly doing that. And by the way, it's most women. They do it all day.

19:38My mom, sister, everybody. I also experience things on Iowaska that are really hard to explain. I feel like I regress isn't even the right word. Like you experience life from like a million years. It's like real pretty wild stuff. To say it's not for the faint of heart is, I don't know if everybody has this kind of experience. I should also note, like this is just my experience with it. But there are times where I'd be on Iowaska and I'd be so disoriented that I would have to remind myself I was a mammal. Wow. We're getting pretty, it gets pretty like take it what they call in in construction, taking it down to the studs. The knock on psychedelics is that they can be, the experiences can be incredibly powerful, but without, and this is the term of our integration. I know, but again, that's one of those things. Integration is as vague a term as the toxins.

20:39Right. But some sort of practice to kind of get it into your molecules in a biting way. And do you have that therapy meditation? I think. I'm not, I've gone to therapy a lot and then less so in the last 10 years, but I don't drink. I'm vegetarian vegan. I do meditate intermittently. So I have a journal. I do, I do this. I think I integrate, but they don't tell you what integration is. That's the thing. You need to integrate. That's the problem. I mean, I think that's the legit critique of the psychedelic space. There's a lot of bullshit in psychedelic. I mean, there's just a lot of bullshit. There's just, it's a bit like a friend of mine who's in AI says like, you can't really be negative. It's a bit of like, let's just affirm this. And it's like, guys, there, this is what I experienced in psychedelics where they go, they're going to legalize. I began. Okay. This is not just like go to the dispensary and get it type of stuff.

21:42It's like you're dealing with potent streams of something. Yeah. So that I haven't even told you about the really bad one. Hello, please do. So I wasca one is great. Two and three are great. Four is a nightmare. Five through nine are also nightmare. The tiger, of course. Another one, maybe not the tiger one, where I thought it was the rapture. I was hearing helicopters. I don't know why they were going to be helicopters during the rapture. And then maybe 10 through 17 were really beautiful transcendent. There are times where it's too close to God that there's something so profound that it's like terrifying in my experience. I almost think, you know, there's a lot of vomiting and I want to get, and I think a part of it is like, I don't know if I, I feel like there's a movie where some sort of deity appears and people are like vomit.

22:42Like there's something so big. It's like a apocalypse, don't you ever see a apocalypse? No. I wonder why. Um, direct by Mel Gibson. Um, yeah, that Mel Gibson after all the stuff. I see I separate the art from the artist. We'll be right back. Yeah. It's what's funny about Mel Gibson is like he's such a good director. It's hilarious. Like the fact that he, he's like, I'm going to make a movie an aromatic. And I'm more obscure language and there's still going to be great and big hits. There's a lot of God stuff in, in a apocalypse, though, and it is, it really does feel that profound. So in the midst, maybe around, uh, between Iowaska 13 and 14, I did, um, five MEO DMT, which is, uh, Bufel Alvarious. It's a, the toad secretion that they turn to a powder and you smoke it. And that one you go, I, you get like blasted into, I believe I was blasted.

23:47I was blasted with thing that I was like, this is before the Big Bang. I didn't know what breathing was. I didn't know anything. I was like, I'm the first, I was like an amoeba. In my head, I heard the phrase God's not here yet. This is your, this is why I'm saying like, so they're just going to legalize us. Okay. And they're not legalizing Bufel, but like, I will gain isn't that different from this. So and then it kind of fades away after about 20 minutes, 25 minutes. You come back into yourself. And I was like, okay. That was, I, it was like, I think that was good, right? About a week passes and I start to have what's called a reactivation with a used call acid flashbacks. It was a reactivation where I was talking to my friend Ryan Hamilton, great comedian and stand on the corner, sixth Avenue and like bleaker. And I can just kind of feel it creeping the sort of DMT white void energy.

24:54And I'm like, I got to get, I got to get upstairs, went upstairs, tried to watch the Linda Ronsett documentary on HBO. Yeah. As one does in moments of where you need solace show some respect. 80 minutes. A lot of records. And then went to, then it kept coming. I was like, all right, I got to go to sleep woke up. Still it was stronger. I was like, I went on like a coffee date with a woman. So I'm having coffee with a woman. And it's like half person and like kind of half white noise, which I'm like, this is bad. This is really bad. And you don't know what it's going to add. I don't know why it's there. And I don't know why it's going to add. It's really disoriented. I start thinking like, am I in God's imagination? Am I am I like, I mean, just like really stuff that you're not like to the point where I have the thought like, I might have to kill myself to get away from this. But here's why I didn't. And it's actually more harrowing. I didn't because I knew I'd be going into more of it if I did.

25:58Somebody said you're like my, your crown chakra was too open or who knows what truly no one knows what it is. Now that having done some research, I love the word research is completely ruined now. And research like 70% of people get reactivations on which they don't, if you do it intravenously, which no one does, you almost nobody gets reactivations smoking it. It's like something like 70% in one of the studies I saw. So, but I think they're minor. Mine was lasting two days, three days. And I was like, this is crazy where I'm like, I'm thinking things like why are steps? Like stuff that's, and then I'm doing my block show in New York in the West Village. And it's going well. By the way, I should note, it's going a little better, but I'm so disoriented. I don't know, not like I don't know who I am or what I'm doing, but I'm just like, this

27:02is not relatable what I'm experiencing right now. It's like, and it's not exactly depersonalization, which is you don't relate to. It was somewhere between derealization and depersonalization, which are two things that I've found out about later. My extensive research. Go to my GoFundMe, and I'll research whatever I want. You pay for it, America. And there was a Hemingway, Ken Burns documentary. It's excellent. And it's actually better than Hemingway's writing. And I mean, I mean that because I was trying to read some after. I was like, I like the story better than it was right. And he's, he talks about getting shot. And he's like, it was like a ribbon flew out of me and then flew back in. And I was like, all right, we got to stop. Like I just could not take. I was just in that. But the floorboards, Dan, I'm sorry to say, were firmer and higher.

28:05Is the punchline here that one needs to go through hell repeatedly in order to? The punchline is I went through hell. I don't know if one does. I don't know if everyone does. It's like antidepressants where you don't know what's going to work, why it works, what it is. They don't even know what these a lot of these drugs are. And I'm not saying it as a negative. I'm just saying it's like, I think they work. But they don't exactly know why. I believe I got like a half a percent better every day. Speaking of percentage and better. I got I got a half percent more what I would call myself. I just came back to like not open chakra, what wardar steps. Just I knew what steps were. Why are steps that if you're doing the math on that? That's takes a long time. Yeah, that's I didn't do any psychedelics for a year because I was like, I didn't meditate. I knew you can't meditate. You cannot meditate because I didn't need to get removed from my human experience.

29:05I was like pretty, pretty squarely removed from it. But I got a little bit every day. I was the and the other punch line is I was 10% funnier. I swear to you, 10 to 15% bigger laughs. Bigger it was crazy. It was fucking crazy. Another thing side effect. So when I go to sleep during this sort of period, this post-booth hole experience, I free fall. Just stuff like that where he's like, what is that? What's that? I guess I don't want to do any of this. I'm happy at 10%. You want to meet God or not? That's the thing I would say to people. It's like, you're my man. You trying to meet God or what? Like that's what it cut. I mean that. You'll fam. That's what I mean, that's really what it is like. I don't know if I have the courage. Yeah, it's kamikaze shit more than anything. It's like it's it's courage is even the right word.

30:07It is. I guess it is a form of courage, but it's a bit of kamikaze, nothing left to lose kind of thing. Like, I didn't like my experience. I didn't before I did it. I was like, I just was things were like kind of gray. Things were just a little drab. I mean, it showed up in your comedy. I mean, there were so, it's just a repeated refrain of unhappiness and I in remodelog is out of control. And then that was free like some blocks. Crazy good. It's just fucking, that's the result is I'm funnier. I can hit the throttle. I can I never it was like having Tommy Johnson. It was like Tommy Johnson. It's a it's a sports thing. It's like a surgery that pictures would get after they and they were better pitching. It felt like that. Wait, so you had done all of this medicine before you did that much? No, no, no, no, I did three likes blocks.

31:08Then I did the medicine stuff. A blocks was written before I wasca. It's sort of about what I was like before I wasca. I don't say that. When I was doing blocks, I didn't feel that way anymore. And then crazy good. The most recent one from two years ago, it's like that was the one where it's like, that's the result of all this stuff. And crazy good. The the theme is like, it's kind of good to be a little crazy. That's the theme. A lot of comedians I think, and that's not that I know a ton of comedians, but I know some of them. One of the ideas I think that is prevalent among comedians is you need to be fucked up and unhappy in order to be funny, but you are, I think you're sitting here telling me, you got 35% happier and you're funnier. Yes. Did that challenge the assumption? There's a longer story here, which is, it clears the whole narrative, but and I don't want to query narratives.

32:09I am an ally, but I don't want to query narratives. The issue is I can still write jokes. So can you write jokes? And if you can write jokes, then it comes down to life force. My life force was different. As a result of DMT and IWASCA and MDMA, my life force was different. The writing was of the same style, right? But the life force was different. I don't know what I was like to audiences, but it just I just read funnier to them. It was more, it was I was lighter. I was lighter, you know, and it was partially in the material, but I was just like lighter and more kind of like there was a fun recklessness to me that didn't exist before. But I think this is really important because it's not just comedians. People think, you know, Van Gogh, Chopped Hive is ear or part of his ear, Beethoven was a mess. That is the prerequisite for making great art. And I think what you're saying is, no, no, you can, if your life force is, you can be

33:13happy and on point and still make really powerful stuff. Yeah, I don't, I know some really funny people that aren't a mess. It's there's a phrase I heard one time being loyal to the wound. And it's, I think people, if you say like, I have to be fucked up, it, you're indemnified. You're, you're, you're, you're exonerate. You don't have to, you have no responsibilities to being a decent person or to working on yourself. I mean, I don't want to lose this. So you took your show, the Netflix special available for streaming now, blocks and turn it into a podcast where you interview people about their blocks. Yes. Two things to say about this. One, I heard you comment on a podcast that nobody actually talks about their real blocks. They talk about the blocks that they're comfortable performing in public. The second is an actual question, which is. A real piece of shit. Go ahead. No, no, I thought that was an interesting thing. No, I think, I think it's probably true.

34:14I think there's, I think podcasts have podcasts as a genre that people can perform. Now, it's a, or, or, or revelation is a genre. Yes. Vonderability. Yes. It's a, it's a genre of, I think it existed somewhat before and I think from the advent of like, Marin's podcast, it became like, people go, I know how to do this. I know, I know my version of this. Well, so, at least me and my question, which is, do you, after all of this work you did, what are your remaining blocks? I used to yell at therapists about my issues, right? You know, the litany. But it's what I call like the, when you go to the therapy and you go like, you just do the, this is your monologue, right? And it changes week to week a little bit, but it's the same. And, and I used to, one time I was like, it's in my body. This is in my body. Whatever this is is in my body. It's not, it's not in my brain.

35:16I guess it's in my brain, but it's mostly in my body, right? And the DMT and the Iowaska got it out of my body like an exorcism. Yeah. It's something. It, it, it, something, some deliverance, some kind. So does that mean there are no blocks then or means there are bloody? You think I'm kidding. No, of course, of course, there's still, there's still blocks, but they're, again, man, I don't know if it's age or, or I don't know what to call wisdom, because it just doesn't seem like I've considered it. And now it's like, I just don't react to stuff as I'm just not furious anymore. I was just furious. And I'm not furious anymore. I was told that this, this episode was going to be about negative thinking. And, and what I was going to say is the disappointing thing about negative thinking, or again, this one's not the right word. Success makes you feel good. Success and status can make you feel a little bit better forever.

36:21It's, it's gross, you know, but you had all the successes, status, and you had to write a guy in index card. And it was all with an asterisk. You asked people in a blind taste test who wrote most of the show. Please, I know that. The only person who knows who wrote what is Dave, he's not dying about it. I mean, like, so he's not dying to be like, I got like, it's just not, it's just not what's going to happen. And that truly is not like a judgment on his character. It's just like, that's not a human thing. The incentive is don't run. Yeah. Yeah. So, and it's not like, it's not like, oh, you'd be, he'd be embarrassed or whatever. It's just, he's better off with everyone thinking it was him, you know what I mean? We used to make jokes about, I mean, when we did have baked, thank you, when we did have baked, when we wrote have baked. The movie just to be clear.

37:21Yeah. Again, for the youngsters, it was a, it opened against Titanic anyhow. They made a movie about, remember when that submarine exploded? The thing that we're looking for, they made it. It's very interesting to be interviewing somebody who's constantly relating to the camera. Again, this is where I do my podcast. This is my mood. If you're listening to this, you are throwing away a pretty incredible experience because you're getting, I'm doing some wild looks to camera. Yeah. Yeah. Some krasinski level looks to camera. But the, we had a thing where, where we wouldn't say who wrote what because anytime someone asked who wrote a joke, they don't have your best interest in my, anyone in comedy who asked who wrote this, they're trying to see, it's a bit like what do you do for work? How should I treat you? Right. Right. I had a decision in 1997 because we're old to not say.

38:24It's kind of Lenin McCartney. How many people you think believe that? Well, as I say it, you know, they did credit. Well, I know. And there was a whole thing of order and that was an ongoing issue in, well after his debt like. And Lenin was really pissed about yesterday, which everybody knew was Paul's song and then Lenin uses it in a, in a diss track on the same record, he, in which he includes imagine as the lead-off single. And do you think you're the only one who read, you never give me your money? I didn't read that. Oh, I read John and Paul love story. Oh, God. Well, you never give me your money as a book about the Beatles after they broke up their business. And the whole book is just like, you're reading it going, don't do that. Oh, don't do that. It's just the, it's the, it, it, it, it embezzles in terms of business. Yeah. Yes. Anyway. So I, I derailed your story with a bad analogy. But great artist. So all this stuff I did, it was always like with Michael Jordan.

39:28So it's like, you know, it's with this titan, all this you've done, this you've done, no one thinks I did it. And the other thing was, there was also a thing where like, I'm taking credit from this beloved guy. I'm not taking credit. It's our credit. Two and a half million. And I say this with less self-pity than I've ever had about it. There are times where I've had lots of self-pity in life in general. That's a great thing that's been lifted. It's not gone. Reduced. Reduced. It's a fun, interesting experience to be made. It's interesting to be everybody. I'll tell him, I knocked up. Okay, fine. Twist my arm. It's not even a great story. But the other night, the next one, it got advanced to the finals, right? And by the time the series, they will have lost the finals in the podcast. So it's a lot of merry-meant on the street.

40:31And I'm standing there talking to a buddy of mine. A guy comes up and he's got a Nick's jersey. And he's like, yeah, we did it. And he goes, tell Dave Chappelle that. Tell that to Dave Chappelle. And he keeps walking. I'm like, why are you mad at me? There was like, and I said, that was hostile. Wasn't it? And he's like, yeah. And I was like, what, I want to stop it. And I go, what are you doing? Why are you mad at me? Or there was a whole thing where I would bring it up too much. And it's like, guys, it's just a odd thing. This is very odd. I love your story. And we didn't even get into your childhood, but raised with, you know, 10 siblings and a violent alcoholic father. And who, as you've described him, like, didn't like... That doesn't even bother me. Didn't, yeah. Okay. It just doesn't even, I don't, there are so many things in my life now that I just don't identify with. Like, I'm just, I barely identify with Tbiljo. Like, I barely identify with my family story.

41:33I like, that's a, it's nice. It seems incredibly nice. And it's kind of building to a questionnaire, which is like, if all of this is down to psychedelics, is that the lesson the listener should take away from this? Or is there something else? I don't think it's one thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think I've always been had a bent for living with some level of philosophy or, you know? So, like, three mics is all predates, psychedelics. And it's pretty like something. There's something kind of a theory all about it. I think I'm inclined in that regard into some sort of, and growth. And I've always gone to 12 step programs and tried to not necessarily like a grind set, a grind set, a growth grind set. Like, I haven't, I don't, I've always been just kind of like, ah, let me try that. I'll just, I'll just try stuff. So, I think a combination of age, psychedelics,

42:37and age meaning that thing I said about just like character traits kind of expiring or like flaking off, you know? Achieving stuff. It's embarrassing to say like, I've been thinking about the, when people go, what's your guilty pleasure? And I want to go like achievement. I wish I were like spirit and pure art and pure, but it's like, I don't know, it feels good to get to the top of the Kilimanjaro or whatever. Like, it feels good. Just feels good to accomplish it. It feels good to make hours of comedy. It feels good to having done sketch, even though I don't relate to it anymore. Like, the negative talk does, it loses credibility, you know? When you're like, it's a fucking you talking about. Like, I don't know, man. Do you have this thing a whole book where sometimes you're negative, the voice in your head will serve up some sort of vicious self criticism and you'll say maybe. Yeah, I heard that on the way over here about that old interview where I was, I said like, you go, I don't, I mean, it just gets the point where you just go, I don't know, man.

43:37Like, you just, they, and even it doesn't believe it anymore. Right. You know, it's like an old legacy act. We're like, are you still doing the, you're still touring with Neil Stupid? I don't, it doesn't even, I guess I'm in a good song anymore doing state fairs. You're doing the two, the America 250 concert would play a Neil Stupid. Drop out. So accomplishment, drugs, and I think some level of pattern recognition is pattern recognition for good, meaning, you know, it's not just like that dude's face looks like whatever it sounds, so it looks like someone's out or whatever, you're sure it looks like a couch or just like, comedy ones. The things I thought were gonna happen didn't happen. Stop doing it. You know, like the things that I thought were, if I do X, I'll be Y kind of person.

44:39It'll make me think I'm this kind of person forever. It's like it doesn't, it does, it's not indicative of maybe anything, which contradicts a little bit when I said about achievement, but it's more like 35,000 feet where you're like, what are you, what are you chasing this? What are you chasing? What truly, what are you chasing? It's a bit like, you know, that, that, if like one of those gray hounds, it's like, why is this not even a real, it's not even a real piece of meat. This is a fucking decoy, you know? And just a glimpse of that now where I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm busting my ass for a thing that I was thought I would get. You know, that thing that you said you've done, you've done all this stuff, right? I qualify for respect. Comedy rush more in my mind. Great. Thank you. I am one of the four best comedians who's ever down anything enough. But I know you've just done some,

45:40not rush more, but like, that you've now talking to the guy. If you're just listening to this, you're just joining us. Anytime I say something, I'll ride. A lot of people I didn't qualify is the truth. And I thought, well, this next one will get him. They don't even watch this stuff. Is the, is what I realized? I'm like, I'm chasing this thing, thinking that if I do enough stuff, I will get some level of like automatic respect, right? They'll have me on their podcast or they'll automatically do my podcast or the, and it's like, no, there's a, there's, I found that the goalpost keep moving. I don't know if it's for everybody. It feels like it's pretty good for me. In your case, I was wrong. Do you know what I mean? So maybe I'm misjudging stuff, but I just, like, living for external validation.

46:41And I just, I'm not getting it. You mentioned achievement earlier as a salve for, you know, lifelong feelings of discontent and depression, et cetera, et cetera. And what, I think it was more like, I thought I was getting everyone's like, no, you're not. Oh, okay. So I have to qualify. It's like, I have to qualify for, for, I have to get my drivers on this every year. But what I, I guess what I'm hearing there though is, yes, there's achievement mixed with contentment that you've arrived at now, which is you're, you're making stuff. A lot of people like it, maybe not all the people you were hoping that liked it, like it, but you're not chasing that decoy anymore. You're happy making what you're making and reaching who you're reaching. So what would that life look like? No, I, I'm with you. I'm, I, I look, if you think I didn't do a 10-day silent retreat at Spirit Rock, you don't know the first thing about me. I did it. It was one of the best days of my life and that's why I haven't done it since.

47:44But no, I don't, I don't, I'm real close to that. And, and it's like, that's what I'm saying. It's a longer story where I'm closer to, I'm sick of being stressed out with worry all the time. And another thing that I mentioned is like money. I must have made some money, right? Doing all this stuff, you gotta think I've made some money. So at a certain point you go, what? What am I? What am I? I'm like stressing myself out for, it's that thing of like getting, you know, things for trying to impress people that don't like it, whatever. I'm just, I'm like, I know I'm funny. It's like, I know I'm funny. And I kept going like, well, I'll prove it and prove it and there's still people that are like on the fence and I'm like, I don't think this is a me issue at this point. I think you just don't want to think I'm funny. So, so the, so I'm just getting closer to like,

48:46I like to live a less stressful life. Or just make for the joy of making in that worry about what the people you're worrying about think. Yeah, or just be, it's, you can just, I can just be fun. I'm still funny. If I have a funny thought, it doesn't matter if I record it. I remember used to write movies, screenplays, and a couple of them got made, but it was like, you will go, it didn't get many of you. And I'm like, no, I made it. I made it. It is, it is a little esoteric and like a little something, but it's like, no, it's better up here anyway. Trust me, they're better up here. They're flaw, every joke works up here. So like, so that's the, it's the, the tension between purpose, I would say it's tension between purpose and a heart attack. Like, I don't, I like some purpose, but what if my purpose didn't involve cortisol? Like, is that possible? So that's more where I am.

49:48And because it's like, what's the point I have money if you're just gonna keep, I got friends with so much money who will intentionally make themselves agitated to keep doing this thing for money that only. It gets into this weird, like, what is a life? What's a life? What is the point? And... My son asked me that question the other day. Hopefully you'll play him this podcast. What did you answer? How old? He's 11. He asked me, what's the point of life? I play video games and I try to make you think it's important, but I know it's not. And his life like that, like, we're just gonna die. They try to make you think video games are important. Yeah, you accumulate all of these points and everything like that, but then you eventually you lose. And so like, what's that, that's obviously futile. And so what, what is the meaning of it? Yeah, it's hard to know, because I'm involved. My, my girl, I'm basically a step out, and stepped out and, and it's hard to know what to espouse.

50:52Yeah, well, I, I told them you have to figure it out for yourself, but for me, the answer is corny, but love, like, all in this bus together. We don't know how it got on the bus. It appears to be heading off a cliff. So what's the move? Be nice to have other passengers. Yeah, yeah. And, and so, I mean, I had the thought of it. What if a person were as ambitious about like, decency as they were about their career? Yes, yes. And it, it's just really hard. Again, these are all sort of like, where am I? Thoughts where you go, okay, what if I took the same engine, whatever, good positive qualities and, and made them, and aimed them at decency and kindness and happiness and it, and how much should it just be about my happiness, how much should it be communal, how much of it, how much of that's futile, how much of that is like, oh, one of my, as somebody who's been drug vegan for 15th, whatever my years, almost 20,

51:55I kept waiting for everybody to join me. Still, still pretty, pretty sparse. I was talking to a Buddhist non yesterday who's worked out, yeah. You know, I know, I know. And she basically said, you know, just on point to what you said around like, wanting everybody to join you in whatever your cause is, she said, do, the only same way to try to affect changes, do what you can and then let it go. Yeah, I don't, that's a, that, I mean, that's another thing where I'm, it's that pattern recognition thing of like, I was mad that people weren't, no, I was mad, I was, I was mad anyway, but, but it was about racial justice or, or the climate change or whatever, all these things. There has been a lot of movement. And, and which I don't go into like, well, if I tried harder, I just, I think people are what they're like. So, then it becomes making your, your life smaller and like be great to your wife and kid

52:59and your friends and your coworkers. And, but I don't have the best affect, meaning, I don't seem nice, I am nice. Well, that's the funny thing is I don't seem nice. That's the mistake I always made. Well, as I thought you were supposed to be nice and it's seeming that, I don't, I was like, I don't, that seems like bullshit to seem nice. That's phony, right? Yes, that's performative and often people pleasing. Yeah, but, so I thought, and again, maybe I'm, I don't, I'm not even nice, but I think I'm nice. I certainly don't, my face doesn't reveal that. That's part of what to go to the cameras. It's like over here I can be myself. Over here I can do it as a charisma bit. Right. And it's like, well, that, maybe this is, this is whatever. So, yeah, I'm into the phase of like,

54:00what is a life worth living, which seems to be what most these podcasts are about, but it still seems like people are stuck in optimization. Even, even a thing I'm sure you've recognized, which is like a lot of, it's like Buddhism, Stoicism, self optimization, and then you can make more money. Yeah. And it's like people doing Iowa, people doing mushrooms to make more, ultimately to be a better money making machine. None of it's about, or maybe it's about, I mean, I genuinely pursued it all for, because I felt like I was being either I wasn't approaching life correctly, or it just felt like I, it was like, I don't think this is what my experience is supposed to be. I think this is kind of a waste. This like general malaise. It's what to do and why to do it is where I am. So, but all this stuff about like, I felt like I was doing all this stuff thinking,

55:01oh, okay, this would be the one. And then a couple of people text you and you're like, fuck, you know, or it doesn't change your esteem amongst people. And you're like, it's like I'm not gonna keep fighting this. This fight, like if I didn't do it by now, there's nothing I can do. There's literally nothing I can do to make you respect me. And I'm also over in the idea that they do and I'm just misinterpreting it. On behalf of the 10% happier podcast, I want to apologize to you for not having had you on the show earlier. And I'm glad we've rectified it. This is fucking awesome. This is actually most podcasts they do where I yell at the person for not having me on their podcast sooner. It's a winning strategy. It's a way people love it. I liked it. No, it's fun. It is the spirit of it's funny, but people think it's hostile. Because I don't seem nice. I mean, now I do, but I seem like I got, you know,

56:04resting dick fights. So it's like it comes across as hostile. Before I let you go, just remind everybody of the name of your podcast. The podcast is called Blocks, guys. Some of my favorite, Jerry Saifah was great. Trevor Noah was great. Bill Burr was great. They're all kind of great. My friend Sam Harris was on. Sam Harris? Yes, Sam was very good. So, so yeah. Everybody listen to Blocks. Everybody watch Neil's three and a half specials on Netflix, Blocks, three mics, crazy good. And what's the half one? Communions of the world. Communities. It's a lot of stuff about 20, 19, me too. I think you're awesome. Thank you, buddy. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. One last thing before I let you go. If you want to listen to this show without ads, check out 10% happier plus, which is a subscription that is available right inside Apple podcasts. If you become a subscriber, you'll get every episode ad free. That's new episodes and all the episodes from our vast 10 year plus archive.

57:06Look for 10% happier plus in Apple podcasts and just hit subscribe. And a quick heads up. If you're already a subscriber to my app, 10% with Dan Harris, you've already got access to ad free podcasts. Ad free listening is baked right into your app subscription along with everything else. So, please don't pay twice. You can check out the app at DanHarris.com and you can check out 10% happier plus inside Apple podcasts. Thank you very much for listening to the show. I deeply appreciate it. See you soon, dances. Thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. 10% happier is produced by Tara Anderson, Marissa Schneiderman, DJ Kashmir, David Hart, and Hayden Brum. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People and Nick Thorburn of the Indy Rock Band Islands wrote our theme. Thanks for listening. Peace.