Mr & Mrs Murder

0:00My name is Shannon Maldonado, I'm the founder of Yowie, a gift shop from the lens of artists and handmade objects. I chose Shopify because when I was testing other platforms, it was definitely one of the most user friendly. It was important to me to think about where we would be in the future. All of the tools for reading your sales like planning inventory, to just right there on your dashboard. For anyone starting a small business, the biggest thing I can tell you is it doesn't have to be perfect. Shopify can help you build upon it. Start your free trial on Shopify.com. An all new 2020 starts right now. Normally when an alligator takes down a deer or a pig or human attacks, maybe after a dog. They normally don't try to eat it at that point in time. The alligator will take them to the bottom and drown the person. They store it under a log or in their cave or somewhere they let it decay before they try to eat it.

1:07Then they come up and do the death roll. It tears the meat off like we would tear a chicken wing apart trying to eat it. They're just a eating machine. The Beast feed market. Talhasia is a very southern town. It does not look like that typical Florida beach. It's like old Florida. It has been said that Talhasia is a big little town.

2:09Let me just start at the beginning. We all went to high school together. Me and Brian, my kidneys. My hair. Have a whole new respect for my wife. We're just totally overwhelmed. We were two perfect little families that are all best friends. I always had my family Christmas on a Saturday before Christmas day. We would go to South Georgia at my grainy's farm. Around noon Denise calls me and she says, do you know where Brian is?

3:09Do you know where my kids? And I say no. I don't have heard from anybody this morning. During hunting season, Brian hunted nearly every day. It would just be morning and I would be up and he wouldn't be there and I would just know he was hunting. She says, well, my kid gone hunting at like seminal that morning and they were supposed to be leaving to go to Appalachicola. He told me he'd be back by noon. She was irritated. Denise and my kid planned to take their anniversary trip at a bed and breakfast. It was kind of a big deal. I said no, I don't know. If I hear anything, I'll let you know. Brian wasn't home by two o'clock. So I just packed up and we just went up to my grainy's by ourselves. Brian got to my grainy's between four and five and my uncle said to him, you're in a lot of trouble.

4:10Meaning because he was late, you know, and so I say to Brian, did you ever hear from Mike today and he says, well, what are you talking about? I said, well, Denise had called me and said that Mike hadn't come back from hunting yet. And he says, oh, I don't know. You know, I didn't go with him this morning. We had a great afternoon. Presence are opened and shortly into all that, Brian was asleep on the couch. I just rolled my eyes and was like, of course, shows up late and then just comes in and falls asleep. When we got back to Talhassim, Brian's father called and said Mike hasn't come home at all. And they need to go out to the lake to look for him. And I remember Brian saying to me, he'll be cold and he'll be beat up, but he'll be fine.

5:11I went to Denise's house. We all felt like we were just waiting for him to get home, so we could all just like laugh. And here what happens, he's going to have some hilarious story. Duck hunting typically, your ideal conditions are when it's overcast, wet, really cold, just terrible weather. That's when your ducks are flying the best. And that's usually when I stay home when it's nice and cold like that, but Mike had the passion for the outdoors. But it wasn't a real strong swimmer. He would go by himself. He normally would wear his waders, which is extremely dangerous for a duck hunter, because if you fall in, the waders fill up with water. And you drown. He just wasn't careful enough in my opinion, but he wanted to be outside shooting ducks.

6:24It was around 72 degrees on Saturday. Who and Mike went missing? And then a cold front had come through and the next morning it was 12 degrees. When I first arrived on scene, Brian went to the chest and his dad found the boat. It was in the weeds over near the western side of the shore there. We all gathered around and kind of helped him pull it up. We were thinking Mike and Fallen in, but why was the kill switch still attached? I was able to get in the helicopter. You know, we're hovering above the lake and it's the very eerie site when you see all these eyes and you know what those eyes are attached to. There were 12 alligators swimming all around

7:27these boats. People had no idea they were there, which then gives you a really foreboding feeling of if he is in the lake, it's not good. Mike had to be out there. He had to be okay. This is Denise and Mike. This is this is the two of them. In high school they seemed so perfect together, completed each other. He was a football player, she was a cheerleader. I mean it was just perfect. All of the boys really wanted to date Denise. She was very fashionable and she was a big flirt. Denise came from a very religious family. Let's go out to play. We all had the expectation to be perfect.

8:33They didn't have a baby in it from God's word. You were given these rules of conduct. No drinking, no drugs, no sex before marriage, no heavy metal music. Things that might be very typical for a lot of high schoolers. Mike was kind of an anomaly on the football field. He wasn't super athletic, but he overcame that by just tenacity. He gave one of the hardest hits I've ever seen on a receiver in my life. Most kids are going to jump up and down and scream and yell and be happy and the first thing that Mike did was he was concerned about him. He kneeled down and started praying for him. And I knew right from that day what kind of person Mike was.

9:38I met Mike in fifth grade and we were always just good friends. He was a little wild and untamed. Mike was loved by everybody. When I was in ninth grade, Brian was a senior and so were Mike and Denise and Kathy. Brian loved Kathy a lot. He was that one boy who's introverted and then ends up with the girl who's the cheerleader. You know that was me. I grew up middle class. My parents had a copy and print shop, the copy shop. Brian's family was different from ours. I looked at his family. His mom was a stay at home mom and his dad was a successful businessman, Deakin in the church.

10:38That's right. New lots of people in town. That's what I wanted was what I saw in that picture. Brian and I got married at a country club in town. It was outside under an archway. It was beautiful. I was teaching middle school and Brian was working under his father, kind of like the next generation of Winchester Financial Group. You know selling life insurance. What we want you to do is to accomplish your goal. Mike and Denise got married shortly after us within that same year. Mike was working for Ketchum, appraisal. We would spend a lot of time with Mike and Denise. We'd been out of college for a year, two years. There was a couple of bars that would have old wave. So it would be like the older music,

11:39the music that we listened to in high school. We're starting to drink. It was very exciting and it was fun. It was fun to go out and go to a bar and see a band and dance. And all of these kind of like new experiences were things that did not align with the way we had been raised in the Baptist Church. There was this feeling that this is a little bit wrong and it's made it even more exciting. As two young married couples were doing things that kids do when they're in college, right? After years of going out and partying, I said to Brian, well, all right, you know, this has been fun, but when are we going to start having kids?

12:43I was ready to be a mom and that's where the fork in the road was. Mike and I both wanted to go to the next level and start our families. Brian and Denise were not ready to let go of this partying. They didn't want to give it up. When I realized I was pregnant, I was sort of what I could just describe as full. It was the beginning of this dream that I'd had. Brian wasn't ready to be a dad. He's like, okay, Kathy has what she wanted, so now I can sort of do whatever I want. I love the five.

13:49At this point, Brian and I have been married for six years. We had grown so far apart and weren't even being intimate. Denise and I spent a lot of time on the phone. She would confide in me about things going on between her and Mike. Mike has been pulling out of this for some that we were. He was just done with partying and was enjoying being a father. For Denise's 30th birthday, the four of us were going to go to Panama City. Denise came, but Mike was not with her. I knew what it would be. It would be drinking and it would be dancing. I don't have a lot of clear memories of everything that happened in Panama City. I know that there was a lot of alcohol.

14:57Brian took some pictures of meandanie's sitting on the bed partially closed. By today's standards, it wouldn't be that bad, but it was enough to keep me online and keep me guilty. They had spent this time just encapsulating me in this invisible bubble, not feeling confident to reach out to anyone else that I could talk to. We were driving back to Tallahassee that night and I can remember just thinking. There had been several times that I would complain to Mike about Brian and he said, Kathy, pack your stuff up and go back home to your parents. And I told Brian what Mike had told me. He got worried and confided in Denise. Denise called me and she said, God hates divorce. That kind of emotional blackmail was

16:06enough to make me back away at the last minute. On Christmas Day, it was painful to have to pretend that everything's okay. There's this unspoken assumption. I think we were all thinking it, but no one was wanting to talk about it there in that house because it's just almost too horrible to say. Brian had this picture that he and Mike had taken together when they were in Arkansas on hunting trip. I framed it and that's what I gave him for Christmas. He opens it and he looks at it and he says, why would you give this to me?

17:12Why would you think I would want this? I don't know. After 10 days searching, my new it was a recovery operation. Since late seminal has been here, 103, 104 bodies over the years have drowned. Every person that I've been involved in on seminal that's been in the water, we have found them. Mike was 31. My son's closest friend. He was like a son to me. There comes a time when reality sets in that if you can't find him with a helicopter with

18:12infrared, you know, he's not coming back. That grief was so, so great and so real and felt by everybody who knew Mike and Denise. It was very somber, it was very upsetting. There were three or four of us that were supposed to speak and I wasn't able to do it. Every year, Winchester Financial Group would have an annual meeting of all the agents. Marcus and Brian had compiled a presentation that they presented to like the higher ups, integrity, friendship, faith, and the feeling of family. Brian had sold Mike to of the three life insurance policies that he held.

19:17Worth $1.75 million. But in Florida, you had to wait several years for a missing person to be declared dead. Brian's increasingly getting anxious about this. He felt like it would look really bad if he had sold this policy to Mike and Denise. Now Mike is gone, but the company isn't paying because Mike technically is just missing. I can remember him saying we cannot wait that long, Denise needs that money. The essence of the Winchester Financial Group is characterized through this heartfelt story of a special client and a very close and loving family friend. That presentation was made to convince the board to pay Mike's life insurance policy without his body having been recovered. He was supposed to return home that day to celebrate a wedding anniversary,

20:21but the miracle of life insurance is going to feel a big need, a huge need. All of this is starting to just fade into like a new reality. Between the insurance discussions, between running the errands for Denise, Brian was totally available to her in a way that he had never been to me. He was at that point her night in shining armor. And I would have conversations with Brian that I wasn't happy. I didn't want to live like this. I didn't want this kind of a marriage. I can remember Brian saying to me, who is going to want to marry you? You're going to be a divorced single mother with another man's child. It was incredibly lonely.

21:24In June, six months after the initial search, we found a set of waiters floating. A diver from Tallahassee came over and he dove down in the deeper hole. Within probably two minutes, he came up with a hunting jacket. One sleeve was turned inside out, like someone was trying to get it off. And I put my hand in the pocket and pulled out a hunting license. To say my poems. It was just astounding to me that six months later it's been in the water and I could read his name plain as day. About ten feet from where we had marked, the Hydrola was all turned up. There had been an alligator there that had done what they called the death roll where they just spin and spin and spin. Didn't find any bones or anything but just reinforced what I had seen six

22:26months ago. Alligators were all over the place. You know, he fell out. Waders filled up. He eventually fell out of the waiters. Alligators taken him somewhere and stuffed him. Brian's demeanor was relief because now they can get a death certificate. And the life insurance was going to be paid. I remember asking him, were the waiters messed up? If an alligator got him, then wouldn't there be bite marks? And him saying no, he probably got him off before it happened. I couldn't understand why anyone believed that. But I also was coming to the realization that he is gone. He is gone. One day in March, Brian admits to me that for her birthday, Denise had wanted to go to the lake

23:32to see where Mike had last been. For the first time, she'd never been there before. She just wanted me to take her out there so she could have some private time and she didn't want anyone to know. I said, well, why didn't she want me to know that that doesn't add up? It was the first time I had specifically caught him covering for being with her. You don't expect a man to be having an affair with a woman who still wants to be best friends with the wife. To say that Denise had stabbed me in the back doesn't even touch it. She had stabbed me in the soul. This show is supported by Chime. Here's a message your younger self would have liked to hear. There is a bank out there where you don't have to pay all those endless fees. It's called Chime. Chime is a breath of fresh air compared to all the other banks that charge you for everything.

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26:41It's been almost three years since Mike disappeared. No one can understand how a mother feels when her heart is broken. My son is never out of my mind. After Mike's dad had passed away, Cheryl wasn't doing well. And so when Mike went missing, that sorrow and just doubled. I would see her on the street corner close to my office on a regular basis, holding the sign of Mike asking if anybody had seen him. Mike's mom started coming to the church and standing in the front with the sign. It seemed really pointed to be at our church. Why are you out here?

27:45There was missing posters on every telephone pole from Brian's house to the office, so that as he drove to the office, he saw every single one. My mom was very frustrated driving around. She would pull over when she saw a sign and she was, you know, driving, make me get out, pull the sign down. Mike disappeared, Mike is dead, and we're trying to move on, you should too. I knew Brian was dating Denise in secret. At this point, I'm ready to be divorced. In those last couple of weeks before our court date, he starts saying, this is what the Bible says about divorced women. Using manipulation of the scriptures to try to stop me from going through with it. The day that we were in court to get the divorce, Brian sat behind me, crying, openly crying,

28:58as if this was breaking his heart. It was just that last minute push of manipulation to try to get me to walk out of there and not go through with it. But the divorce was final that day, and I feel good about it. Yeah. Brian and Kathy got divorced, and I remembered Denise telling me about what she felt. She and Brian. It made sense. Denise lost Mike and loved Mike. Brian was his best friend. Brian's now divorced. That would be a natural fit that really would kind of heal her heart. Brian loved Kathy. Kathy's the one that left.

30:02So Brian and Denise had the green light to start dating. He loved her. He smiled around her a lot more. I know that Brian wanted to ask her to marry him, but Brian told me Denise wanted to marry a godly man. Growing up, we were always in the church. But around the time Brian was a senior in high school, he didn't want to go to church anymore. He was like, I'm not in it. In the name of Jesus, armistice, armistice. Denise's parents did not like that about my brother. Brian was not godly enough for her. And so he did go through a big, religious experience. Brian got in the pool and they asked you to tell your story as to why you became a Christian.

31:07And he said, I ran my life to the ground. I cried out to god and god forgave me of all of my sins. And I'm here to be baptized as a public display. And like I cried, I was super excited that Brian was going to be back in the church. And that also really made Denise very happy that Brian was baptized again. Brian and Denise were married and it was very fairytale. They were incredibly happy to be together.

32:13Brian moved into the house that Mike had bought. It was weird. You know, your closest friend. You loved him like a brother, but yet you were able to marry his wife, move into this home. I was talking with Denise's sister at the time. And she told me the bedroom set was the same set that had been Mike's bedroom set. It's so creepy. Everything that I had seen right after Mike was gone, everything I'd observed, everything I had questions about. I had all these puzzle pieces and I just couldn't seem to make anything fit.

33:14What I didn't know that Cheryl had been doing for those years was she had been trying very hard to get an investigation ramped up. Get anybody just to look into what could possibly happen to her son. I got a phone call from Derek Wester from the Jackson County Sheriff's Department. And he said, Ms. Cheryl has given me your name and phone number and I would like to talk to you. Yeah, there was a lot of speculation at the time that he had run off that he got eaten by an alligator. So she comes over and she gives us her version of what happened on the day of Mike's Disparation. I told Derek that when I woke up that morning, Brian was gone. As far as I knew, he was hunting because of stuck season. I didn't know where he was hunting. I didn't know who he was going with.

34:14Brian wasn't home by two o'clock. So I just picked up and we just went up to my grannies by ourselves. Brian got to my grannies between four and five, shortly into all that. Brian was asleep on the couch. We contacted Brian. We wasn't necessarily interrogating him. We were just talking to him. He explained that he woke up at 10 o'clock in the morning. Well, you are playing with his dogs. And then him and Kathy and their child got in his truck and drove to Kathy's family's Christmas gathering in Kara George's. That's what he told us. Brian and Kathy gave us both different versions of where they were at. So we asked him, you know, just to clear things up, we would do a great job of the photograph.

35:17He said, absolutely. Maybe the next day, maybe the day after. I get a call. He said, sir, I'm representing Brian. I'm going to trust her. He's not going to participate. He's not going to take the photograph. He gave you a statement. They miss him. They love him. And please respect our privacy. My first knowledge of the Mike Williams case was when my wife and I were looking for a daycare. My wife got word about Miss Cheryl. So we went and saw her. It was like the perfect setting. She was like a grandma. She was old school. That's when Miss Cheryl was like, you know, what do you do? And I said, I'm an ATF agent. Then she just let it rip. She told me the details about Mike, about the case. I mean, it's just, it's jacked up. And there's good jacked up and there's bad jacked up.

36:19And that's bad jacked up. And I was like, well, it's a no-brainer. I was like, your son's not missing. I mean, how does somebody kill him? But in ATF's world, it has to be firearm-related. I mean, I just basically told her I couldn't get involved because I had no skin in the game. Miss Cheryl told me about a handgun, it belonged to her husband that had not been returned by Denise and Brian. So it was a crap sheet from the get-go. But I was willing to run with that because it was an unagent handgun. I had these two gentlemen come in to the coffee shop and they were dressed in suits and ties. This is very serious. It's not a, how do you do? Nice to meet you. It's not a friendly welcome. I mean, you know, the thing you got to think about is that you're going in to talk to this woman

37:19that used to be married to one of your prime suspects. And that's the father of her child. So, you know, my experience typically would be, you know, I'm going to be met with some pretty high resistance. He says to me, you are going to have to decide right now whose sides you're going to be on. This train is leaving the station and either you're going to be on it or you're not. And I was like, okay, okay, I understand that. And I'm willing to help you. He asked me if I knew if Mike had a handgun. I said to him, yes, he did have a handgun. He kept it in his nightstand. I was taking back by, you know, her eagerness to help. I believe that Brian and Denise have done something to Mike. And I'm watching them just live this life happy, carefree. They've got the golden goose, right? They've got the life insurance money.

38:20Josie being on the case, it was just the first time that I felt like I could see the light at the end of the tunnel. The goal was to let Brian know this might have been sleeping, but it ain't sleeping no more. And he'll take you over here and, you know, show you a freaking fire and hill. You step on a damn fire and hill, the damn fire and it's come out. You know what I'm saying? We wanted all the ants to come out. Brian was very nervous because Josie was a federal agent. The idea came up for me to have a meeting with Brian and would I wear a wire? I was terrified at the thought of that. It was very intimidating. It doesn't feel safe. But at the same time, I'm like, we're so close, how can I not do this? What if

39:21this is the only chance I have and what if Brian is close to cracking? Today is Friday December 14th 2007. This would be a recorded conversation between Kathy Thomas and Brian and just... Kathy was going to meet with Brian. It would have to be at a secure location, a location that is public, daylight hours, easily accessible by us. You know, all the things that would lead to the safety of Kathy. Kathy, if you want to put this in your first... Okay. What is this? That's so we can hear everything. Okay. I am terrified I'm going to mess this up, you know, because I don't know what I'm doing. The key here is that Brian never really knew what Kathy remembered.

40:24Our goal as law enforcement was to have this meeting where Brian would start quizzing her about what she remembers. Kathy was going to be very vague and the goal was for Brian to implicate himself. You know, to say, okay, well, you need to say I was here till six o'clock or whatever. That's what we needed. Can I ask you a couple questions? You can ask. When is everybody saying that I should have put your greenies? I mean, what you say is going to make a huge difference in all of this. I know what I remember. I don't know what anybody else he said. What do you remember? I know what I remember. You don't remember?

41:25I thought you were right at the end. Well then maybe you're the one with the bag. Because I know what I remember. I can't even tell me when I shared a sickly. I'm going back up because I don't want to run over your foot. As we continued the pressure with the case, I remember getting a phone call from Denise's attorney. And he was like, hey, you know, we'll turn that handgun over to you. So we'd freaking quit what we were doing. Without the handgun, we didn't really have a dog in a fight. Skin in the game. Our nexus was gone. Josie said, Kathy, I'm going to be off the case. You know, it was disappointing if Josie had been able to stay on him. Who knows?

42:27The hand was out of the handheld, man. You know, and it just, it just blew like that. You know, just went away. I was on pins and needles all the time just constantly agitated. Agitated because nothing's happening with the investigation. I didn't know what he had done. I didn't know what Denise had done. I just knew that they were at peace. And that meant they knew what happened to Mike. If that means where he is, how he died, they knew they had peace with it. The rest of Tallahassee did not. I would always go back to as long as they're together. Nothing's going to happen.

43:29This is where the good stuff starts. It started out on the baseball field. And Denise comes walking over. And so, even though we had been through all of the bad years, we had been friends before. Down on the way so we could see your face. There was a familiarity there between us. As time goes on, there would just like be this slow warming of that friendship. As if we had just left the past in the past and picked up where we left off. I had to suppress all of those feelings of her betrayal. Because my new goal is bigger than whatever I felt before.

44:35My new goal is to find out what happened to Mike. I knew Brian knew what the true story was. And I suspected Denise did too. But as long as they're together, it's never going to be solved. And that's what was happening. I did not have any faith and law enforcement. So, this is it. This is all I've got left. Is to try to get close to her again. And break them up.

45:40Here's a helpful fact. With progressive between June 2024 and May 2025, potential savings will vary. Brian was always in a f***. But I never thought he was capable of murder. And also, there's no way that Denise would remotely plot the hurt Mike.

46:41So, I'm starting to see things are brewing in their marriage. Denise started opening up to me about how he was not easy to live with. So, that's where we got. I was in this position that I had waited for. I am her good-to-girl like she trusts me. As the months go on, Brian is pretty much becoming the same husband to her as he had been to me. Denise spent hours on the phone talking to me about how controlling he was. He would hack into her phone to read her text.

47:43But she felt like he was watching her all the time. Like your room to be. And whoever you want to design the wife, then, what are you doing? I was playing the room. Why would you play with your phone? I was okay with whatever I want my wife. Wherever you would want your room to be downstairs, however much wall stays or wherever you would want it to be. Okay, then you would design that and you would pick that. I would not care because my bedroom would be upstairs. And so, you're not going to be messing with my bedroom. Brian and Denise had bought a house together and they were going to move into it. But Denise wouldn't leave the house that she lived with with Mike. You're supposed to be excited. But I just realized I'm not getting any of this. Oh my god. They fought a lot. She started confiding in me about how he never worked, about the money he wanted to spend.

48:48He's drinking, he's taking drugs, he's going out to bars. I tried to seem sympathetic. But it definitely brought me a lot of satisfaction when she would talk to me about the things that he was doing. You get what you deserve. Like, I felt like she deserved it. Denise and I have a disagreement and I leave to my office. And I look at Craigslist's ass and fantasize about hookers and cheating. Some out later, Denise finds it's on my computer. During all this, the Mike Williams investigation, accusations, which hunt went on,

49:50which changed the nice lady, both of us. And I'm going to dedicate all that shame and pain through sex. Brian's parents had a mobile home that was on a piece of property at Lake ammonia in Tallahassee. Denise was concerned that he would have prostitutes, parties, and very bad things going on in there. She was realizing this is a man who is going to hurt me. Friday, we got into an argument and I lost it. I grabbed her by her arms and pushed her up against a door screaming, I can't take it.

50:50I saw how she was scared so I let her go and she ran out. She was like, get out. She bagged up all of his clothes and put them in the back of his truck. I did feel a lot of satisfaction that they were imploding because now it's Brian versus her. I was hopeful that if Denise divorced Brian, she would open up and tell me what had happened to Mike. It made him crazy. It made him crazy that she wanted a divorce and literally he couldn't stop it. This man was not going to let Denise be free of him.

51:52You know, he would do anything to have her and then he got her. So in the morning of August 5th, I'm at home and it's just sort of a regular morning. I got a call from Denise's sister. She tells me Brian had kidnapped Denise. She said they're looking for Brian. This was outside the realm of what I would have imagined he was capable of. What is he doing? What is he doing? What's your name? Denise. Just give me a run that I'll have tonight.

52:54I've walked out of my house about 19 and then I pulled out. I'm going to sucky-rode. Brian was in the back, I guess, hiding. And then when he came out, he came up to right behind me. He's screaming. So you're going to do what I say or I'm going to hurt you. And he pulled out a gun and he put it right in my ribs. I think as with this, he will turn. He was crazy. He made you took the wheel and was trying to force it to turn and out of the towel. But I just like took the wheel back. I mean, not to end. The fact that we didn't wreck was unbelievable. So then I pulled in the CDS. I knew because I got there all the time. That your camera's there. And he was like, you want to answer my text? You want to answer my text or my calls. Please just call the divorce law. I'll buy the lost everything.

53:54Focus crazed. And I said, Brian, that I will not call the police. I promised. It didn't go so fine. It was like, I'll drive you to your truck. And so when I did that and then I pulled that, then he started pulling stuff and back and shoved it into a backpack. And I saw she's... I wouldn't say, blast it. And then he pulled out something else. Like a tool or something. Not a hammer, but something like that. And he shoved all that into the backpack. Then he had a bottle which it was like, you know, those old-time English bottles that are like white. It was the sprayer thing. A huge one. There was always speculation that Brian, Winchester and Denise Williams somehow were involved in the disappearance of mine.

55:01This is our opportunity to get information related to Mike's disappearance. Denise, he was going to kill you and for whatever reason he didn't go through with it. He brought that stuff because he'd cover his tracks. But I'm not going to sit here and show your coat stuff. Okay, but you've been living in a crazy life forever. And you finally have enough to get out. I know. I know Denise. He did it. And you know exactly what I'm talking about. I don't think you need anything ever whatsoever to be held that over your head forever. He has ruined your life. He's going to kill you so that you didn't talk about him later. That is the truth. I've been in this too long. 15 years ago he walked in and told you he'd done something.

56:04Denise. No. Denise. No. After the kidnapping, she was very concerned for their safety. We were hoping that she would have told us that would have implicated Brian that the disappearance. Think about the man who brought something to marry you with, who brought plastic, who brought bleach to cover his tracks. It doesn't make sense. He's nuts. He killed your husband. But he, okay, and he is nuts. That crazy. Then again, what I can't have it all this to live with me 24-7. I can't. I'm not safe. You have to prison for murder and you'll never see him again. Kill Mike. And he buried Mike where no one can ever find him. We thought that we were getting pretty close to Denise saying something.

57:06I think it's what they're doing. Everybody was ready for that point in time where she gave us something with a little meat left on the bone that we can run on. Hey, what are you doing? How are you? Finally, a special agent at Michael DeVaney went in to try to elicit something out of Denise. I want to talk to you about a couple of things. Maybe you can fill a couple of gaps for me. Can't you do that for me? I can try. Okay. Where do you think Mike's buried at? Oh, I have no idea. You have any speculation on that? I'm where he's buried. I mean, I believe. You don't really believe he died on the lake. I do. Why? I just always had to know that's what I believe.

58:09I mean, this was your house, but the... something vanished. Hope you stole the interest in that. This is my priority right now. I'm not comfortable talking about this right now. This I've had an unbelievable day. This is... This is just all too much right now. But she was pretty closed off. All business kind of cold. Very focused on what had happened to her that morning. You think it's responsible for why she's scared? I do know. And I never had. I would have never buried him if I thought that. I want to leave on this night. I was hoping you could fill in some of the... pieces of that puzzle you have it. We arrested Brian. He might. You got it? Yeah. I'm pretty. Well, just think about it.

59:10Okay. Okay. Brian got arrested at the office. A SWAT team showed up. Brian Lynch-Hester is accused of kidnapping. Denise Merrill Williams. And everybody who knows anything at all, but this case knows, that this is a big, big moment. Brian and Denise were no longer a unit. They were no longer a united force. So if the theory, as law enforcement had always said, that one has to turn on the other, it seemed clear that this was right for that. Denise, I can tell that she is nervous. She was very afraid that Brian was going to come for her if he got out.

1:00:14But then we heard that... Brian was going to do a plea deal. So there wouldn't be a trial. He would just plead guilty to it. It's very much night and night, please. Denise Williams, Your Honor, I'm here today to ask you to send its Brian Lynch-Hester to the maximum penalty under the law for the crimes that he committed against me on August 5th, 2016. He took my sense of security and safety from me. I live each day with the fear of his retaliation from my decision to tell. He will finish what he has started no matter what age he is when he's released. For all of these reasons, I'm asking you to send its him to life and prison for the crimes he has committed. It comes down to my life for his. And I'm asking you, please, to choose mine.

1:01:16Thank you. This is the Winchester-based finder plea in this case. And to do a Q&A to guilty, I send it to the 20 years of Department of Corrections. From my perspective, 20 years, and doing something to Denise wasn't what he should be in prison for. There was sort of this feeling of dread. Now, I didn't know if we would ever find out what happened to Mike. Over half of my career was involved with the Mike Williams case, with a cold case. Sometimes you're just waiting for someone to finally step up and say, hey, I know something. I've been sitting on for a long time. With this case, the idea was always, we're waiting for that one crack. You know, we'd either be the one that needs or bride. One day I went to the hospital, and I was like, oh, I'm going to be a little bit more patient. I was like, oh, I'm going to be a little bit more patient. One day I went to the visit Brian and Jail,

1:02:17and he told me I'll be in big trouble unless I tell him, unless I tell him what I know about Mike. I snapped the minute he said Mike's name because I'm like, you know where he is. You know what happened, and you have kept it quiet for 17 years. I said, that mother has every right to know where her son is. The state were doing everything they could to get all the evidence they wanted from Brian about Mike Williams. And so we started negotiating a deal. We built up this agreement that anything he gave him about Mike Williams couldn't be used against. We offered immunity on anything to do with the Mike Williams case if he had information leading to the prosecution or to a body. We received a phone call from the State Attorney's Office asking us if we could be in their office that afternoon. That's when we were told that Brian was going to give a statement.

1:03:23So, 2.12 on October 9, 2017, this is Telly Sparkman, Investigator State Attorney's Office. We're here to take a profit from Brown Windchester. You want a lot of background or now you said you could know where the body is, where location was, when you tell us where it is. Now we get a map. Is that garden around? Yeah. Car link? Yeah. Yeah. After receiving new information, FDLE's crime scene unit and special agents spent days conducting an extensive search. Along the shoreline, there's kind of a slope. It's grown up with trees and all kind of, you know, vegetation.

1:04:23He's long that slope, which is probably underwater right now. That search led to the recovery of human remains. An FDLE's crime laboratory analyst confirmed that the human remains are those of Mike Williams. It was in here, where we finally found the grave. 17 years did not hide how Mike Williams died. Friends, the analysis concluded that Mike Williams was in fact murdered. Our focus has shifted to bringing those responsible for his death to justice. And we will not stop until that is done. At that point, all the public knew is that we had recovered Mike Williams body. They didn't know how we did it. They didn't know when we did it. We didn't want to tip our hand. It's to what we had because it would greatly impede us from further investigation

1:05:28and charging anyone else that was responsible for his death. Thank you very much. Special agent Will Mycler called me and I asked him what happened. Did he suffer? You know, in those last moments, I think Will just kind of didn't have the heart to tell me in that moment. Mike's body had been found in close proximity to areas that I'd spent a lot of time hunting. So it was pretty gut wrenching to know that for seven or eight years, I saw it. I sat probably 75 to 100 yards from Mike's body for my best friend.

1:06:37So it was a... That was a tough day. Prior to the press conference, I was assigned to go speak with Denise. Her eyes got a little teary, but that was all. If this was a loved one online, I would want to know where and how did you find them and how do you know it's Mike. She didn't ask anything about it. As the months go on, I started to feel frustration. I had expected someone to be arrested for what happened to Mike. I knew it was either Brian or Denise. I'll say that. I didn't think it was anybody else, but I just didn't know which one of them had done it.

1:07:46I felt they were both capable of it. She knew how to shoot a shotgun and there was a shotgun in the home. Whatever it was, I knew that Denise knew what happened. This show is sponsored by Progressive Insurance. Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's name and price tool for years now. With the name and price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit Progressive.com to find a rate that works for you with the name, your price tool, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, price and coverage match limited by state law. This show is sponsored by Progressive Insurance. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet.

1:08:49Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, National Average 12 Month Savings of $946 by New Customer Surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025, potential savings will vary. Will Mycleron calls me and he said, Kathy, I just wanted to let you know that Denise has been arrested. If you want to buy a quiet house, do you have anything that you want to pay to

1:09:53Central or anything you want to say at all? After all of these years, that was the first time I'd ever put a question to Denise. Authorities arrested a widow Denise Williams for her husband's murder nearly 20 years ago. Authorities only found his remains five months ago. They just arrested Denise. Not even a draw this is so surreal. It just made no sense. It was unbelievable for Mike. I felt relieved. Such a relief.

1:10:55A trial has started involving a tallahassee woman accused of plotting her husband's death. The woman who was already in the Williams' life in prison for her former husband's murder and an 18-year-long cover-up. Ms. Williams is charged with conspiracy to commit first-grade murder, first-grade murder, and accessory after the fact of first-grade murder. Yarn this time, stay with Bill Bryan-Wingessor. Mr. Winchester, did you and Denise become an item I guess if you will prior to 2000? Yes, sir. When was that? The date that we used was October 13, 1997. Then it snowballed really fast. We started meeting whenever we had the opportunity and having sex very regularly. We spent a lot of time together.

1:12:00At some point were there thoughts of how you and Denise could be together. Yes, sir. We eventually started talking about options and ways that we could be together. And Denise, because of the way she was raised, she did not want to get to work. Which narrowed the options. Who narrowed those options? I instigated a lot of it. I helped come up with ideas, but overall it was very mutual. We wanted to be together. And we weren't going to let anything stop that. What was what? One of the options was Mike and I going on a hunting trip together. And they're being an accident where he drowned and I did not.

1:13:08We could feel better about ourselves if there was a chance that he could make it out of it. You know, it'll be up to God what happens and not us. It won't be a murder. It'll be an accident. It's about life and children's policies. He and I talked about increasing his coverage. If it was idea, what was it? It was a combination of Denise and I talking about him having more coverage. And he eventually, I think with Denise's encouragement, decided to go ahead and get that extra million dollar policy. It was a planned date. I'll take steps to kill Mike. Yes, sir. I think it's a good idea.

1:14:13The plan was that all this would occur very early in the morning. I had told him that we were going to go to a secret special spot to go hunting. We headed out and there was a deep area. I got him to stand up and when he did, I pushed him into water. What happened next? He was like struggling. What I eventually realized was he was taking his waders and jacket off. That area of the lake had a lot of dead trees that come up out of the water. And he swam over one of those stops and held onto it.

1:15:17And he was panicking. And I was panicking. And none of this was like going well. I thought it was going to go. And I didn't know what to do. But he started to yell. I didn't know how to get out of that situation. So I had my gun in the boat. So I loaded my gun and I just made one or two circles around.

1:16:21And I ended up circling closer towards him. And he was in the water. And as I passed by, I shot him. Where'd you shoot him? At the head. I knew I couldn't leave him there. Being shot. I reached down and he wasn't far under the water. And I grabbed a hole of him. And I drugged him in the water. And ended up putting him in the back of my suburban. I was just panicking. Just getting out of that area and covering this up.

1:17:23The plan was for his death to occur. But it was not for it to occur in the way that it did. And I didn't want to tell the east that. It was not easy. It was not pretty. But I had to make it happen. I mean, I had no choice. I guess I imagined that Mike's last moment wouldn't have been the way it was. Mike knew that Brian was the one doing that to him. And Mike loved Brian like a brother. My heart just broke. When you shot Mike Williams that like Simon over at the 12-K shot, there was a knees Williams standing there with you. No, she wasn't. She was in my head behind me. She was in your head.

1:18:26It's a fair to say that over the years you've been obsessed with the knees Williams. Denise and I were best friends. We were Bonnie and Clyde. We were partners in crime. In this case, we're blaming Denise for some idea, some unproven idea about her involvement in the murder of Mike Williams. There's based solely on the testimony of the person who did the killing. The penalty for the armed kidnapped is life imprisonism. Yes, sir. And you made a deal with the government not to get that life sentence. You're turning in a deal. It was a profferable agreement. The way Brian described the events of Mike's murder, it would have made him eligible for the death penalty. But once they got the body, he could never be prosecuted for murder. Because that was protected by the immunity deal. It was the niece that the government was trying to prove that she wanted him killed for the insurance money.

1:19:28Sometimes you have to make a deal with the death to get the one you think should be prosecuted. Mr. Winchester, your Herber, is it a trip? Yes, sir. Mr. Winchester, your Reliars, is it a trip? Yes, sir. I'm nothing else, Your Honor. Brian's friends, family, law enforcement, all the latest looking for him. A 19-day later, she's filing for a insurance pay of $1.25 million. That's a cold individual. That's a person that's involved in a homicide. Think that three days get Brian Winchester's on the stand. Describing how he shot his best friend. Everybody in his entire room will you by the sheer form of that situation? Mr. Wilbur. That one person sat here, absolute stone faced,

1:20:32didn't bat an off, didn't shed it to your... I was watching the jurors, and they were pretty riveted to what Brian was saying. And they were looking across the room at the defendants table, and they're not seeing Denise having really much reaction at all. And they're making decisions based on what they see in here. I'm in Formal Heavard, I say to Florida birds to the scent of Denise Williams, we the jury find is foused. And I get a text, and the text says, Kathy, thank God. I knew just what those three words meant. Count one of the indictment. The defendant is guilty of conspiracy to commit first-degree murder. As to count two, we the jury find the defendant is guilty of first-degree murder.

1:21:35And the defendant is guilty of first-degree murder. As to count two, we the jury find the defendant is guilty of first-degree murder. Count three is indictment. The defendant is guilty of accessory after the fact of first-degree murder. What just happened? I had a gutter or reaction. When I go to bed at night and I try to go to sleep, I see Michael cleaning to the stump in the lake. And I hear him calling, help, help. There's no good conditions for anything to call me. I got 18 years to get a resolution like this. At Sheryl's, it's more deserving of some kind of justice and some sort of peace than any person.

1:22:43He killed his best friend, Point Blank, to get the woman he always wanted. And then in the ultimate, ultimate chess move, took a plea bargain and said that she had me do it and put her away for the rest of her life. Ms. Williams, a sent-issue life in prison. I tell a hazy woman was sentenced to life in prison this morning for masterminding the murder of her husband more than 18 years ago. It's over. And I didn't even know all the specifics, but I knew that she had been found guilty. I know. The only people in my opinion who know what truly happened are Brian and Mike. And Mike's dead and Brian said what he's going to say.

1:23:43I firmly believe that there is more to the story than what Brian has told. From the get-go, there was kind of a lack of imagination that these nice people from these nice families, you know, church-going people could ever play a role in something that was so awful and, you know, nefarious, right? The idea that Denise would rather see her husband killed than have the shame of getting a divorce. That just seems crazy, right? Denise had a choice. They could have got a divorce as embarrassing and as horrible as that would be in the bad discharge. Mike could have lived. He could have had a regular life. She could have gone on and had a regular life and nobody lived like this. Do you think Justice was saved? No. Justice wasn't served because my brother is not convicted of murder.

1:24:48No. Nobody's officially charged with his murder. One person is charged with kidnapping, one person is charged with conspiracy to commit murder. That was the only way. You know, they were never got the body and Denise would still be out running free and, you know, I guess that's the best outcome you could hope for. This is the only way to get closure for his family. I did it. I know that's what Mike's going to tell me one day.

1:25:49When I see him again, he's going to tell me I did a good job. And that's our program for tonight. Thanks for watching. I'm David Muir. And I'm Deborah Roberts from all of us here at 2020 and ABC News. Good night. Wait... Instacart makes groceries shopping easier. And just because you're not doing the shopping yourself doesn't mean you don't care how it's done. With Instacart shopper notes, you can get particular about what you want right in the app. Like rotisserie chicken that's extra crispy, stick with marbling the Romans would have loved, and let us actually pick yourself. Just leave a note for your shoppers so they can get it right for you without having to ask. That way you can get groceries just how you like. Download the Insta Card app and shop today.