Luke Donald Returns, Jon Rahm Digs In, BIG Topics With Brandel Chamblee Pt. 2

0:00Get in the game with the college branded Venmo debit card. Record your team with every tap and earn up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash, a new rewards program from Venmo. No monthly fee, no minimum balance, just school pride and spending power. Get in the game and sign up for the Venmo debit card at Venmo.com slash college card. The Venmo master card is issued by the Bank Court Bank NA, select schools available. Venmo stash terms and exclusions apply at Venmo.me slash stash terms. Max $100 cash back per month. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsor jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate to see. According to Indeed data, sponsor jobs have four times more applicants than non-sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsor job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast, Terms and Conditions Apply. What is up golf sit goes another episode of Dan Engolf presented by Knockaround.

1:02We are live on the Bay Hill range. We're talking all things Bay Hill. We're also talking about John Rom put in the line in the sand with the DP World Tour. Luke Donald getting the Ryder Cup cap and see for the third time. And we've got more from Brando Shambli. As always, if you want to get the full version of our show, see the clips that we're talking about. That's over on the Dan Engolf YouTube channel. But for now, enjoy another podcast episode of Dan Engolf presented by Knockaround. Cooking safely, yes, right? Yeah, that's my final answer. Cooking safely. Terrible. I have a straight donation station in Jupiter. If you're a little harsh, Paul saw him. Two and three. Give it some moment. Give it some moment in the middle. One and four. Go, squeeze. Can we just please stop saying this a moment ago? A king has come back not to be believed. Mentally, I'm like 15. Yeah. Settle signs that you're playing with a stiff. Yeah. You want me to be intimidated by a f***ing bag?

2:05What is up, golf stickers? We are live here on the Bay Hill range for another episode of Dan Engolf presented by Knockaround. I am joined. Kind of the voice of God. Off camera, Alex Bush. Alex, say hi to everybody. Hello. Yeah, Alex is a man in the camera. We're a lean crew this week, such as Alex and I. Ben is at home. We got a lot to talk about. A ton to talk about. We got a lot to talk about. We got a lot to talk about. We got a lot to talk about. We got a lot to talk about. We got a lot to talk about. John Rom. Digging in. He's going full. Sevy by a sterose with his with his stance toward the European tour and the D.P. World tour and potentially putting his rider cup future in jeopardy. We got Luke Donald speaking of the rider cup going back for a third time. Try to beat the Americans. For a third time. We've got another that the back half of our box office interview with Brando Shambley. I love listening to this guy talk about golf. Like I've said, I mean whether. Whether you like Brando or you don't. You can't argue that he's not well researched. That he's not very intelligent. And that he doesn't, you know, go above and beyond to put out a really good product. If you hear a couple of noises behind me, some buzzing, maybe the sound of flushed golf shots is because we are on the range. We're outdoors. We're out of golf course. And stuff happens. So we've been here at Bay Hill for a couple days, just in an electric range report yesterday.

3:08If I do say so myself, we had Tommy Fleetwood owed me $20. He bet against Michael Carex Manchester United, which was a very, very silly choice on his end. But Fleetwood always pays his debts. So he paid me $20, which was awesome. I don't feel bad seeing how much money he's won in the last couple of years. And the greens are fast. No oversight here. So no repeat of last week where we had that overseeded rye surrounding the greens. And with the rough, it's a permutifest this week. Rough is long. They have made a few changes to the golf course, which I think the consensus is has made it a little bit easier, which is utter woke nonsense, of course. But hopefully we will get a stoner tougher test than we've seen the first seven weeks in the PGA tour, where I think the highest winning score has been 16 under. That's not what this tournament was built for. This tournament has an identity. It's a mini-US open. Always one of the toughest tests of the year. I want to see an eight under winner and a ten under winner I would settle for. But I don't want to see something in the 15 to 16 under range. So we're going to start with John Rom.

4:08So Rom is going full sevy. If you look back in the day, you know, sevy by seros in the early eighties had a financial dispute about appearance fees with the then European tour. And really stuck it to them and said, you know, I'm not going to play in the rider cup. If this sort of situation doesn't change. Rom obviously idolizes sevy. He said so himself. So a little bit of background on this. Ever since a lot of the DP world tour players and PGA tour players, but for this. Not really PGA tour players for this scenario. Once the DP world tour players went over to live, they started getting fined. And they would get fined for every event that they participated in. Now they weren't suspended or banned like they were like the live guys were from the PGA tour, which is how you've seen guys like John Rom and Terrell hadn't. Continue to play and win in some instances. DP world tour events. So these fines have been going on and on and on, but obviously the situation has changed. You know, there's been a path back to the PGA tour for Patrick Reed and for Brooks Capka. And there's not as much heat in the situation as there was before.

5:11And so the DP world tour has been working with the players to come to a solution. And the solution that they came to with seven players, not including John Rom, was they have to pay all the fines that are outstanding, which Rom, as said, are about $3 million for him. So it's a very substantial amount of money. And they have to play not in the mandated four minimum events. So the DP world tour has to be a member. You have to plan four events that aren't majors or Rolex series events. Actually, just not majors, I think. They want these guys to play six. And they want them to play six and not just play six of their choice. They want to choose two of the six so they can give a bump to, you know, an example I saw used was Thomas D tree to play in the Belgian open. Like you want a Belgian to play in the Belgian open. And John Rom is not a fan of that. And so he was not in that group of seven. The names that were released that had come to essentially a settlement to move on. And he's sticking to his guns. He was John Rom speaking at live Hong Kong. I don't like what they're doing currently with the contract they're having a sign.

6:16They're asking me to play a minimum of six events. And they dictate where two of those have to be. But I've always been a dual member. Never once have I been asked for a release to play either one of those tours. We've never submitted a release. Right? So why is it now that we need to be offering that in this oldest penalties? Now, while I understand why they're doing it, what's the problem? Two years ago, I was asked to appeal the fines so they could figure this out and sort it out. And I did. And we're running into more problems right now. I just don't like the situation. Right? I think we should be able to free freely play where we want and have the choice to play where we want to not be dictated what we do, especially myself. Right? I can't speak for others. That would be myself. They're using our impact and tournaments and fighting us and trying to benefit both ways from what we have to offer. And is just in a way they're extorting players like myself and young players that have nothing to do with the politics of the game. So no, I don't like the situation and I'm not going to agree to that. Now, I did tell them.

7:16Funny enough, lower that to four events, like the minimum says, and I'll sign tonight. And they haven't agreed to that. I just refuse to play six events. I don't want to and doesn't know what the rules say. Look, in this day and age, you know, the internet wants black or white, right? They want you to say he's an asshole, you know, live, paid him $300 million. Just pay the fines and play the tournaments. Or they want you to say that he's, you know, a freedom fighter, basically. I see both sides here. So he's clearly standing on a principle. It's not about the money. I don't, I really don't think it's about the money because he had said, you know, if it's four events instead of six, I'd sign right away. It's about those extra two events and then dictating how many times he has to play and where he plays. And look, I know that live tells him where to play and that's a little bit different. They pay him a boatload of money. But this is a principled stance. And what I've learned as I move into my 30s and the maturity that has brought me and ROM is only a couple months, I think, or maybe just a month older than me, is oftentimes standing on principle makes your life a lot more difficult.

8:22You have to make concessions. You have to make compromises. So there are really three eventualities, like three ways this could go. And I think one of them is the path of least resistance, but it goes against the principle, but it probably does less damage to him long term. So the first possibility is he sticks to his guns and he actually doesn't play on the rider cup, which would be really, really damaging, I think, to his legacy. Second one I should say is he agrees to pay reluctantly. He, you know, acquiesces to the rules that are in place and he gets to play the rider cup. And that's happy days. That's the path of least resistance. But that is the one that goes against his principle. And then the third possibility, which I think is the most likely, is that he sticks to his guns. And he is able to play the rider cup. I mean, I don't, I still can't see a scenario in which genre doesn't play the rider cup. I think they will come to a sort of agreement here. But I still think that that would do a little bit of damage. You know, the US got hammered for wanting to get paid to play on the rider cup. And Rory McElroy has said, you know, we've all said that we would pay to play on the rider cup.

9:22And it's time for John Rom to, you know, put up and then actually do that. So I understand why Rom is doing it. He's standing on principle. He's not taking the path of least resistance. But it's definitely making his life a little harder. Maybe he doesn't care about that. And that's his prerogative. But I don't see this super black and white. But Rory McElroy, who has said in the past, like I said, that, you know, Rom should pay up. He was asked about the situation here at Bay Hill. And here's what he had to say. There's a reason eight of the nine guys took that deal, right? I think it's a really good deal. And, yeah, obviously John doesn't think so. And that's, he's obviously well within his rights to think that way. But I just don't see what more the European tour can do to accommodate these guys to, you know, to retain their membership. Look, the rider cup is bigger than any one person. It's bigger than all of us. We come and go. Players are, we pass through the system. Like it's the platform that's the big thing. I mean, I think we should all be grateful that we have a platform like the rider cup that we can, that we can play on.

10:27And that we can, you know, like showcase our skills and be a part of something that's, that's obviously way bigger than ourselves. So at the end of the day, it's about the team. And no one player is bigger than the team. So more live press conferences. Anthony Kim spent a couple of weeks in Thailand after that incredible win in Australia, which was an incredible story. Amazing television. He's back at Liv Hong Kong. I think he spent a couple of weeks in Thailand with his family, which is a smart move, just kind of getting away from it all and getting back to the core, you know, really what motivates him is his core. Imagine if he won again this week, what a story that would be then they'd have to invite him to the masters. Very excited to see how he plays this week. Alex, would you like to see Anthony Kim at the masters? Absolutely. I mean, this is this is a guy that we grew up watching. And obviously it was a very, very, very tough star for him. You know, that last almost every event and then kind of just a complete whirlwind and a complete change a couple of weeks ago. It would be electric to see him at the the masters, but the question is does he deserve it after one live win?

11:32Yeah, that's fair. I think that's been the take I've seen on the PJ tour like from the players like it would be awesome. But the criteria for getting into the masters is not just it would be awesome. But he said he has a new kind of addiction, which is a much healthier addiction. Here's Anthony Kim. When she ran on onto that green, that was selfishly that was one of the these most special moments of my life. When I used to put for five, six hours on the green at the club, I belonged to that sent me a letter to get off the green and not practice as much. That was always in the back of my mind. I've seen other players families run onto the green. I'm sure I've seen you do that. But that was that was my goal. I'm a recovering addict. But now I think I'm addicted to making that happen again. And there's nothing that's going to stop me from working to get to that point.

12:35Yeah, look, there are some addictions in life that are a lot healthier than others. So addicts often turn to like nicotine or they turn to working out. I think getting addicted to winning golf tournaments is pretty damn good. And you know, Anthony Kim, but last we forget was one hell of a player, one hell of a player. And that's when he was treating his body like shit. And we didn't really care about golf. I'm excited to see this second act for Anthony Kim. You know, he said himself when I first started on live, I was just terrible. But I knew that if I kept working hard, I get back to where I was. I think there's a potential for him to be even better than he was. I mean, I know he's 40s fighting against father time. But we've seen guys like Justin Rose and Adam Scott have success deep into their 40s. And Anthony Kim was that good with basically playing with one arm behind his back because of how he treated himself and his body. So a healthy focused Anthony Kim. Really excited to see how he plays this week. I live Hong Kong. More news on the Ryder Cup front. So Luke Donald. It's official. And this has been coming. You know, I've speculated on the show that I think it's pretty much a done deal. That Luke is going to go for a third captaincy for the cycle out of dare manner.

13:35We had Justin Rose on and I asked him about, you know, his potential features of captain. He said, well, it's not really my choice to make. It's Luke's if he wants it. So the secrets out. Luke Donald will be back for a third time. It's a courageous decision, in my opinion. It's a brave call. I mean, he's already smashed the Americans twice, which makes him a Ryder Cup legend. Beating the Americans on foreign soil in New York in that environment. People thought it was an impossible task. And he did it. And now he could easily ride off into the sunset as a hero of the Ryder Cup. But he's back for more. And he would be the first ever guy to win three consecutive Ryder Cups as a captain. So look, it's a brave decision. He clear that there's a crazy camaraderie within this European team. I'm sure all the guys, remember, it was 11 of the same players and the same fertilized egg. Switch out one boy guard for the other. At that F page. I'm sure those guys are hugely motivated now to bathe on that team again and run it back with that same crew. And this will fire them up. The fact that he's willing to do this again.

14:35And there's a lot that goes into being Ryder Cup captain and he doesn't need any of it at this stage. Luke Donald does not need the money. I don't even know if there is a substantial amount of money. He does not need to add to his Ryder Cup legacy. He's doing it because he loves the process and he loves his guys. It's also pretty clear to me that. Guys like Graham McDowell, guys like Lee Westwood, guys like Sergio Garcia are probably just not in consideration. And it's a market change in sort of the theory behind a Ryder Cup captain. You know, it used to be a Ryder Cup captaincy was sort of a reward for a life well lived in golf. You know, a guy had a good career. You give him a cap and see does it want to move on. Now they're looking more like national teams, right? Like a soccer national team. If a soccer national team wins the world cup, they're going to want to bring that coach back if he wants to do it. Right? Why change something that's working? It also doesn't mean that the US can't win at a dare manor. And I want to make that clear. Luke Donald is a fantastic captain by all measurements and by everything we hear. One of the best, maybe the best.

15:35You can be the best captain in the world and still lose if your players don't play well. And I've said that a bunch and I know I might get hammered for it because the US has lost each of the last two. Captains get all the credit when they win and they take all the blame when they lose. But at the end of the day, players win or lose Ryder cups. They just do. And I know that the European team has, you know, stats guys. We have stats guys too. And they're just as smart as the European ones. There might be something in the Europeans having this team sort of atmosphere and, you know, maybe Luke is a part of that. But I don't think that just that that means that the Americans, you know, under a tiger woods or a different captain can't have that same sort of camaraderie. So not a surprise to see Luke do it again. He's certainly a brave guy. He loves the Ryder Cup. And, and he's got a chance if he wins again to go down in history with, you know, not quite Pep Guardiola or Mike Shisewski, but as one of the great coaches, which, which we don't see very often in our sport. Some other stuff to get through. Tom Kim, hole in one, Jupiter links into the playoffs for TGL. Haven't talked much about TGL this year.

16:37It just hasn't really captured my attention that much. But yesterday was great. Tom Kim, I saw everyone's calling him Tom Sim, which is hilarious. That's an epic nickname. We're definitely adding that to the future best nicknames, rankings. He goes crazy. He goes crazy. I mean, we saw this at the President's Cup. Anytime the guy makes a putt, he goes absolutely nuts. So he was made for this sort of hybrid entertainment product that TGL is. Let's watch that clip of Tom Kim making the hole in one. Right on Mars. This is going to be really good. He did it. He did it. I've got a TGL take that I think is kind of interesting. What's that? So Jupiter links is not win the playoffs, right? So their next match is in two weeks. And they host Tiger, if he's going to play in that match, and he said, and he said, you know, I'm looking forward to it, which was not, he could be looking forward to just being there, he could be looking forward to point.

17:37I actually think whether Tiger plays or not is sort of a look into how serious the competition is. There is no argument on a pure golf basis for Tiger playing instead of Okshay Batia, Max Homa, or Tom Kim. It would be his first golf in years after major back surgery, that being said. From the entertainment standpoint, it's a fucking no brainer, right? Are they out there for eyeballs, or are they out there for competition? Now usually you say, and this is what the PGA Tourist at all along, the competition brings the eyeballs, right? When you build a real competition, people watch. Sometimes when you try to just go straight for entertainment, it doesn't work because it feels kind of contrived. If they take out Homa, Okshay, or Tom Kim, and put Tiger in, it makes sense for entertainment. It does not make sense from a golf perspective. Yeah, and imagine his first return as TGL. Yeah. That would be absurd. And I mean, he's so different and so into this, which is the most shocking thing to me

18:37as after the whole one. It's just like a celebration that if you showed that to him 10 years ago, 15 years ago, it would be like, who is this guy? But yeah, from a golf perspective, it's not the move that you would make as a team, but it's entertainment and having Tiger in there is money either way. Of course. Yeah, I know he seems really invested in it and he seems like he's in really good spirits. Like, speaking really well, he seems to be doing great. But I'm just saying, if Tiger is put in there, it's clear that this is not necessarily his entertainment. And I have no doubt that the players enjoy it, right? And the players, they look like they're having a blast out there. And the players have fun on live golf, too. They like the team, it's fun to be a part of a team that doesn't mean that it's a good product for the market. Yeah, and from the golf perspective, he doesn't have to be ready to play golf, he has to be ready to hit a few shots into his simulator. I know, it's a little different. But still, it doesn't make sense. So just a thought that I had. McLaren, you were fired up about this. So McLaren is entering golf. Can you, I know McLaren just from a little bit from F,

19:39tell me about that brand. Yeah, it's an electric brand and they're the top brand when it comes to success in F1 right now. They're racers, PS3 and Lano Norris. We're winning all last year. Is that Ferrari or Mercedes anymore? No, no, it was, it's, it's, you know, last year, it was them to top three, top five, every single time, both of them. They're like a fun group. They got a great brand, great logo. And the people who watch Drive to Survive, they're really just like genuine dudes who, you know, people enjoy following. So, and people, people seem to love the brand and the color scheme, the orange. It's like it pops and yeah, a lot of my, a lot of my buddies are really excited about that. I'm curious to see what them getting into golf means. Are they going to make, I don't know. Is it clubs? It falls would, you think the ball would be pretty damn fast. Imagine a McLaren driver. When the McLaren driver and McLaren go full, I have a, something's popped in my head that like, they get into this and they have just no idea that the rollback is coming.

20:39And they're just like, oh, I'm going to make the fastest golf ball. What do you mean? We got to make it slower. But yeah, I mean, we've seen a ton of movement out here with different brands, you know, Maulvin was not really a thing five years ago. It's absolutely everywhere now. Golf is hot. Golf is hot and an F1, a premier F1 brand, like McLaren getting into golf with their, you know, engineering expertise is very, very interesting. That's true. I was just going to say they're a merch line. They're, they're closed like that. That would be something that like gets that other audience in. But people would love it like Red Bull's partner with Taylor made like other F1 teams have done it. But, you know, having the whole, the whole style of it would be pretty sweet. It sounds like it's going to be a more like comprehensive thing than just the Red Bull family. Yeah, just like, yeah, just like a little partnership. Yeah. So also interesting, Rory McRoy. A lot of Rory content coming out. So we have had, we've had Alan Schiff knock on the show plenty of times. He's got his, his book, Rory, the biography coming out right before the master's, I think full swing is going to come out. I think, you know, somewhere in that period, I don't know, for sure. And now, just announced today, Rory McRoy, the master's weight,

21:42a feature link documentary premiering on Amazon Prime. Video March 30th, 2026, so it's going to be a lot of, I mean, we knew this was going to happen, right? The guy completes the career grand slam. It was a Shakespearean story. You know, he gets so close when he's a kid. And then every year, he comes back. And it's when he's going to win the master's. When he's going to win the master's. When he's going to win the master's. He's had some chances. Hasn't been able to do it. He's won everything else in golf. Besides a major 11 year gap. And he finally gets it done. And he tries to puke all over himself four different times in the round and still closes it out. So yeah, excited to watch this one. I love more golf content, especially on a, you know, this is going to be a premier documentary. I think that the director is like one Oscars before. And Rory has mentioned that he's been to Augusta to do some filming recently. So I'm sure they made this thing pretty damn good. Alex is looking around. It's crazy birds. Is that a bird? Yeah, they're birds. So I'm trying to figure out where it's coming from. So yeah, Rory documentary excited about it. Wanted to highlight a little bit of college golf. So the Southern Highlands Intercollegiate just finished up in Las Vegas. And the winner from Texas was Christian Mass,

22:42who is in the top 10 of the PJs. Where you out of Texas, he shot 10 under Josh Doingmanie, shot eight under from Virginia. They're the number one team in the country. They won the team competition. Jackson Coivan, the world's best amateur. He finished solo third at minus seven, also from Auburn. Jake Albert finished fourth at minus six. Ty for fifth would Ben James from Virginia. He's the number one player for Virginia. And a guy called Trey Marion, which is a great golf last name. And then I was very interested to see the number one ranks player in the collegiate rankings is Harry Takas, maybe Takis. From San Diego State, Australian guys, only number 38 in the world amateur rankings. But he's the number one player in the country. He shot 400 to finish tied for seventh. Texas has quite the squad. They've got Christian Mass, who won. They've got Tommy Morrison, who's way up there in PJ tour. You Luke Potter, who we all remember. He's up there in PJ tour, you also. And then Daniel Bennett is playing this week. So he was the best player at the Palmer Cup, which gets you an invite into this tournament. So he's the only amateur in the field. Virginia continues to be the number one team in the country. Auburn is a force again with Coivan leading the line and they have Jake Albert, Caden Pope, and Logan Riley,

23:44whose dad is a long time agent out here on the PJ tour. There was also the Cabo Collegiate down in Mexico. Oklahoma State won that by one over Arkansas, press and stout, who's, I believe, the number two ranked world amateur ranking behind Jackson, Coivan. He shot 1500 to win by one. Alex, you know what really grinds my gears? What's that? When people blame Caddies when they miss a putt, or a shot goes short of the green or over, like, have some fucking manners. It is never the Caddies fall. It's like, it's like Michael Scott blaming the GPS when he drove into a lake. Like the, the G something went wrong, for sure. I'm not saying that it didn't go wrong. The GPS is there to help you. It can never be a negative. You're still the one who pulls the club back. If you don't like the read, then don't go with the read. They're there to help. And they're out there doing the actual hard work. And I just, I've seen it so many times that these clubs I'm lucky enough to play. The members treat the Caddies with disrespect. You're not invited to my club. You are not invited to my club if you treat the Caddies with disrespect. Number two rule. If you start thinking about the emergency nine

24:44on the third hole of the day, you are invited to the club. Everyone knows this feeling. You're out there with your boys, it's Saturday. Maybe you have a beer on the first couple holes. You know, you play well the first three. And you're just, you don't want the round to end. You're like, oh my god, there's only 15 holes left. If you start thinking about that emergency round and sending those texts early in the day, you are invited to my club. If you have spent more time watching shipping tutorials online than home videos of your own child, you're invited to the club. I want sickos, I want sickos. I want guys who I can say align from those old Tiger, Jason Day Taylor made videos and you know exactly what I'm talking about. Like when Jason Day says, can you explain that like a normal person? I want you to be able to respond to that question you're invited to the club. If you play slow, you're not invited to the club. Pretty damn simple. If you can't play in a four-some in four hours, I'll give you four-ten, you're not invited to the club. If you've got a group chat that never stops buzzing with memes and weather forecasts, weather forecasts are key, you're invited to the club. You want to know what you're dealing with out there.

25:46If you clean your clubs and polish your shoes the night before, you're definitely invited to the club. You want to respect the game. You want to look good while you're out there. If you enjoy shooting the shit with the caddies more than the members, you're definitely invited to the club. This is again, like the way you treat the caddies, the service staff, you know, the backroom guys, the pros, it's a big deal for me. And the last rule, if you love the game, if you truly love the game, I think you will qualify for all of those and you are invited to the club. Speaking of manners and you should have some if you want to be involved in my country club, we have a promo code for you. If you use the code dog15, you get 15% off your order on mannersgolfaparole.com, mannersgolf.com I think it is. They have an incredible new collection. The club collection, this stuff is amazing. Really high quality and 50% is significant discount. So join us through the official apparel provider of Dan on golf. I'm wearing it. I'm wearing manners pants. I'm wearing manners shirt. I'm wearing a manners hat. Join the squad. Get on the manners game. All right. We're going to move into our first interview. We've got Alistair Dockardy on the show.

26:47So we've been following Alistair, Alex and I both since our bar stool days and he's had quite the journey from playing golf with rigs when he had no money to continue chasing the dream rigs, rigs giving him a $50,000 investment to keep chasing it, getting on the cornferry tour, finishing second in a PGA tour event. Going to the cornferry tour, being like a one shot out of getting his car, then missing out on getting his car to Q school by one shot to a horrible car accident to another second place finish. You know, you started to wonder if it was ever going to happen for Alistair. It finally did. He won the 119th Visa Argentina Open, the only cornferry event where if you win, you get into a major. So what a damn win for him to get. He's into Royal Berkdale. It's really fun. You know, we talked to a lot of guys on this show who won, you know, their third event, their fifth event. And those conversations are very different from someone who wins their first on the cornferry tour. Lives change on the cornferry tour in a way they don't really on the PGA tour. So enjoy our chat with Alistair Dockardy. We're joined by Alistair Dockardy, winner of the, I think it was 119th, is that right?

27:48Visa Argentina Open. Yeah, 119th. You're checking the trophy right there? Yeah, I got a little replica here. I love it. It's an old golf tournament. I want a golf tournament you want. It's been a little bit now. It's been, you know, 48 hours. What are the last 48 hours been like for you? Not a lot of sleep. A lot of text messages, some media things that I am gladly doing. It's been a lot, but I wouldn't want it any other way. So tell me about the tournament. You know, obviously we were watching the PGA tour of any cognizant, which was a wild finish in and of itself. The first I learned of your win was they flashed it on the broadcast and I was like, Oh, Alistair won. Let's fucking go. Looks like you closed it out by one. Like tell me about the final round. Was it dicey? Like, how were you in contention? So when we started the day, it was me and S.Y. Sengil No. And we were three shots clear of third place. It was, I mean, we both birdied the first hole out the gate.

28:48And we, he then birdied three and four. I birdied six. Um, he chipped in on eight. And then I hand a putt for birdie on eight. So it was just like a, it was a match play situation. We were going back and forth. It was great. I made a very bad three putt on nine. Uh, to go back to two down. And ten. I made birdie. He didn't. And he made bogey on 11. And I made par. And so we were all square. Um, he then birdied 12. I then birdied 13. And when we got to 13, uh, there's a leaderboard right there. And I saw that there was a couple others that were kind of making a little run. Um, and I was like, all right, it's not just a two man race. Uh, we got to stay in it. We got to stay focused. Obviously keep doing what we're doing. We're playing great. Um, And then on 15, I hit a great T shot down there in the middle of the fairway on a par five. And I just kind of took a step side to the, um, to the team to the side of the T box and started doing my meditation to just get back in the moment, calm myself down.

29:56Like box breed. Like, what does that meditation look like? Yeah. It's, uh, it's, yeah, it's a form of box breeding for sure. Um, eyes closed, uh, just being in my own personal space. Um, And he hit his T shot. I opened my eyes. I started walking down the, you know, I got fifth, like 10 steps in front of me and my caddy Marcus was like, how? How? How? I'm like turned around. I was like, what? And he goes. It's left. I was like, oh, well, like how far left? Come back to the tee. And so I didn't, I didn't even see his T shot, but it went out of bounds left. And so I was right there. I was like, whoa. We're now looking pretty good. You know, and I get into the fairway. It's another one down the left side, but it stayed in and. We get in the fairway. He hits it just short of the green. And I've got a, you know, pretty standard seven iron into the par five. Downwind front right pin. Let's just hit it just a little past on the left side.

30:57And I just came out of this golf shot and plopped it in the short sided right bunker, which was absolutely close to you. No chance of getting it close. And as I got up to the, to the green, I saw the next leader board. He said there was a three way tie at the top. And Chris Corte came back and was on a feeder. And so I was like, I will need at least one, if not two. To get it done because I think he had one left and 18 is. It's drivable for. You probably have to field now because everybody hits it so dang far. And I just didn't get up and down. I gave myself a birdie putt didn't make it and then. He had another great tee shot on 16. Give myself a chance to hit a great putt just didn't hit it close enough from the wet shot. It actually ended up the putt ended up right on the other side of the hole. I don't know how it missed, but it was from 40 feet. You're not expecting to make those 17 back pin completely in between clubs.

32:01And I knew if I didn't hit the five iron like take enough off of the five iron. And it went through the wind. Then it was going to go long and it was impossible to get up and down. But I knew six iron had to hit be hit. Absolutely perfect to carry the ridge to even hold the green and get up there. And I right when I hit it, the wind kind of just gusted in my face. And I spun up a little bit and caught the wrong side of the float false front. And ended up short right about 30, 35 yards from the pin. And if anybody's played any of Alistair McKenzie designs, there, there's no gimmie on and up and down when you're missing those greens over different slopes. I mean, especially that one. It was kind of so firm that you could, you know, every time you made contact with the ground, it was kind of just dirt. So had to be clipped perfectly. It had to be landed just past the downslope because if it hit the downslope, it could have taken a huge bounce and gone off and.

33:02Hey, executed the chip perfectly. It actually scared the whole and went, you know, four feet by. Si then had about 18 feet for birdie and just burnt the edge and it rolled down my, my line for my putt. And so that kind of helped a lot. And then when I'm walking into the putt, I don't know if you heard of this or saw this, but there was a cell phone that went off. So I backed off that person was then, you know, walking back around the other side was super embarrassed. And then I walked into my putt again and another phone went off and this lady picked it up and started talking on speaker. Yeah, like, and she was right up against the ropes and my, my caddy. I don't speak any Spanish and I actually don't like that I don't speak any Spanish, but my caddy speaks a little bit and just started screaming in Spanish at her. I just, Silencio, Por favor, no more telephone. Oh, and just like screaming.

34:02Wow, this is insane. Yeah. And, and so he came in and he's like, hey, let's just restart. Let's restart. I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're right. I'm going to mark this. And so I just marked my ball again, went through the entire process and buried it. And I was like, alright, we got, we got a birdie. Like we, we know, we know what we have to do. And, and the day before we hit a really good drive and it actually ended up against the grandstand past the pin. And that pin was front right, huge false front and like a big slope just right of it. But it's actually, once you get past that false front, it, it's like front to back. So if I get it past it, I'll just be chipping back up and then it just barely press over and, you know, could run off the front. But it's a way easier chip than being short. So I said, you know what, let's, let's aim just left and let's peel something just a little bit towards the pin.

35:03If it goes straight, we have so much room because I love that commit stay stay focused. Let's finish in a balance, you know, balance finished. I was like, perfect. I love that. I was so focused, so ready. Hit this shot and it just started peeling right at the pin. And I just hold my phone, hold my pose like watching this ball and right when it landed, it took this nice bounce and looked like it was just going to kill it right into the slope. And so I stopped watching and I handed my driver to my caddy Marcus and he's like, I think that's good. And S.Y. actually walked by Marcus and and goes, I think it's really good. And the clap started getting like extra loud, like just constantly getting louder. I was like, Marcus, I think we held the green. Like I think this could be really tight. And so I was like, holy crap, you know, let's calm down again. I started doing my box breathing again and S.Y. Then hit his T shot and it kind of flared off to the right. I didn't see where it finished. And then as we're walking up the volunteers that were spotted balls were like mid trees like way right.

36:15I was like, well, like that's that's going to be impossible. There's no way he's getting that up and down. I mean, okay, so we don't have to worry about him making eagle essentially. And so as we're walking, I see this ball. That's just like barely behind the pin. And I think it's, you know, five feet. Like it looks incredible. But as we start getting up to the green and my, oh, that's, that's all right. That's 33 feet probably passed. And then I had to stand up there for what felt like 10 minutes waiting for S.Y. to get ready to hit his shot and all of a sudden I see this ball that just barely crests the right hill and just trickles down like an unbelievable shot from the trees. And he somehow kept it below the pin uphill putt from like seven feet and I was like, okay, you've had to do this the entire day like it never was going to be easy. You have to get this down into to win. And I went through my process again. I hit this putt and right when I made contacts like, oh, no, I think that might be short. And I looked up and I'm like, oh, that might go in. Oh, that needs to sit.

37:22And it just kept tripling just everything all over. And it just kept trickling by a little bit. And they went about four or four and a half feet by S.Y. Then buried his pot and and huge credit to him. I mean, there was no give up in him. He played phenomenal day. Just one, one really bad T shot on 15. But to put that like to get that up and down from that where he was off that T shot, one out of a hundred. I mean, it was incredible. And yeah, and then I was just ready to hit this putt. I mean, I watched it go by. It's a right handers dream. Something just inside that right edge and make good contact. And this thing is going to go in. And I had a little spot about a foot in front of my ball that I was like, you roll it over that. And there's no chance this thing is missing. And I right when I hit it, I kept my head down pretty good, but my eyes kind of looked at the spot and the ball just went right over top of it. And I just blacked out. I mean, I saw the ball just disappear and it was it was gone.

38:32Like everything is a blur. I'm screaming. Everything. All the emotions came out. And my chatty came up and gave me a hug. All of a sudden, I'm off the ground. And it was it was incredible. It was it was so awesome. You've had so many close calls. I mean, you know, you finished second in a PJ tour event. Maybe not that you thought you were going to win that day, but you finished second in a PJ tour event. You, you know, you missed your tour card by a shot. I've been so close. Was there any part of you when, I don't know, was early in the round when, when S.Y. gets hot or when he hits that shot where you're thinking, like, here we go again, or were you so in control of your emotions that that never came in. I don't think there was a point last week or in that final round that I said, here we go again. I knew it was never going to be easy. I, and I was really up for the task because yes, S.Y. got hot, but I didn't, I didn't really miss hit a shot through that portion of when he was getting hot.

39:38So there was nothing, I was, I was still in control of what I was doing. So, so to answer your question, no, I didn't really say here we go again, but it was, it was more of, it was never going to be easy. You're still in control of what you can control. And there's so many holes ahead of you, like, you do not have to press, keep, keep in your own, your own game plan, keep playing your own, your own game, like, you can still do this. And I think birdying six and when he didn't birdie six and then when he chipped in on eight. And I had, you know, a 12 footer for birdie on a very hard part three. And I can't that I, I don't exactly know what I said to my caddy, but he was like, there was no chance that you were not going to be right there at the end of the day, even though we were one back at that point, because whatever I said to him, he was like, dude, you were so fired up, but in control of that fire, and we were just going to do it.

40:46I don't, I don't remember exactly what I said, but in, in match play, you know, you, you're like, you know, you're telling yourself, like, not so fast, you know, MF or, you know, like, like, you, you, you're not, you're not, you're not going to chip in and, you know, take this away from me, I just hit this incredible shot, you're not going to win this whole kind of thing. And that's what it felt like. Totally. So, so now, I mean, looking ahead, or I guess looking back and looking ahead, you've had a very interesting start to the year, you've got a second place, you've got a win, you've got three missed cuts, your second in the points, which is amazing, awesome. But the corn free tour is interesting because it's the, it's the tour that everyone wants to get off. And I know your goal is getting to the PVA tour. I'm guessing the mindset doesn't change at all. What, what is your mindset for the rest of the year? I actually had to sit down with, well, with my caddy and talking to my parents, because we have to plan to go to Royal Berkdale, obviously an incredible perks or winning. Yeah, I didn't even talk about that. How sick is that, dude?

41:46Incredible. I mean, the one tournament that I end up winning, I get an exemption into a major. And this is, you couldn't, you couldn't want to win another tournament. I mean, this is, it's awesome. And it's, I mean, I, I could go into it all, all in detail, but I played in the Arnold Palmer Cup in 2016 at 4B Golf Club, which is, you know, 10 minutes down the road. So like I'm hoping that I'm able to go back and like get there early and maybe go to 4B and kind of relive those things. But so that's what I was having a conversation with, with Marcus and my family is like, I don't know if I can afford, I mean, I can afford to skip a few events, but I don't want to because I know what, what happened a few years ago. You know, I missed a few events and I came up one shot short, essentially. And if I would have had, I think it was like 18 more points, I would have had a tour card.

42:46But the, the role of Berkdale is right in between Colorado and Chicago. And to get there, you know, I don't really want to fly in Monday morning on a red eye. I want to be able to take that whole experience and be prepared. So like I'm going to probably have to take Colorado off. So our next, you know, kind of goal is to make sure that we are borderline tour bound by Colorado. So we're looking at, you know, 1100 points is essentially the number, just going off of last year, I think it was 1080 something. So if we can get there, we'll feel so comfortable. We can take some time off. And we, at the same time, the end goal is to finish in that number one spot. It makes a difference. You have to show up in players and all that stuff. And you're guaranteed the whole year, no matter what, you know, it's, yeah, it's, it's so much bigger.

43:47Awesome. Well, we've been following along for a long time. It feels like the journey's really kicked into the next gear. So I appreciate you taking some time from Chile to join the show and keep it up this week. If you, you know, you win the, you win this week, it's everything solved your tour bound. Exactly. Yeah. Thanks, Dan. Alex, I noticed when we were recording that interview yesterday, you were just smiling ear to ear, like how, how good is it feel to see him finally cross the line? Yeah, it feels great. Obviously, we got connected with him when we were back at Barcelona. He was really their guy. And we saw him, you know, get into the Myrtle Beach second place, you know, come up very close in Q school. A few times, cord fairy tour finals, all that kind of stuff. And it's really cool to see him when I was telling you this when I was kind of going through editing it. It's kind of cool listening to a guy just go through the round and remember how much he knows, like he could tell you every single. He was telling you shots that he had on like the, you know, 12th hole and then what his playing partner did and their reactions and then what he saw. Like the crazy memory that you like hear from all these like insane athletes, like you can hear, you know, hockey players talk about exactly what happened on this goal four years ago.

44:55And it's like, it's, it's he's obsessed with the game and it's like really good cool to see a guy like that, you know, come up on top. It's so funny because I can't remember what happened for breakfast yesterday, but I can remember, you know, every shot from a good round or every shot from around at an iconic club. If you've noticed, obviously that we're outside and I'm being protected beautifully by my knock around sunglasses. These are the panoramas. Alex was telling me they're all of green. Yes. I love these sunglasses. Just the best companion for the road. The same quality is because sunglasses that cost five, six, 10 times the price. There's just no reason to spend stupid money on sunglasses, especially if you're a golfer, you throw them in the cart, you throw them in your bag. These things are ready for the test. We're promo code for you. If you go to knockaround.com slash golf, you can look at all of the different options, pick a couple and then use the promo code Dan on golf 20, Dan on golf 20, and you get 20% off your first order. Just the best sunglasses in the game. I really believe that I'm going to leave you with the second half of our meaty interview with Randall Shambley. There's so much more to talk about. We got into the sort of rollback debate. We talked to so many golf things. Zoomed out interview. Randall's on TV all the time talking about this statistic and strokes in this.

46:03But I think he's at his best when we can zoom out and he doesn't have to fit it in a two minute answer before they go to commercial. I always love having Randall on the show. Again, you might disagree with him, but I think a big part of life is trying to listen to people that you maybe don't agree with and see if maybe they have some good points. Because don't echo chamber yourself. So we'll see you guys back on Sunday for the watch long. They'll watch long super excited for that. But for now, enjoy our interview with Randall Shambley. Very excited for this one. We are joined by Randall Shambley, a guy who needs no introductions. How do you feel about the direction that the PGA tour is taking? It already looks a lot different than when you were playing. It's going to continue to look even more different, you know, whispers of starting after the Super Bowl and 20 events that all count the same. And you know, we're moving to this almost like F1 model of like a traveling thing that's kind of, you know, less mom and pop and more of a kind of every event trying to be big. Is something lost with that or is that just kind of an unavoidable, you know, evolution of the sports media landscape? Well, I mean, the media contracts goes to 2029. So I don't know how they could just unilaterally decide they're going to take away a certain menu of items that the media have paid for without a huge refund to their media partners.

47:11I don't know that they can do that, but, you know, maybe maybe they worked that out to where there is such a huge refund. And on their side, look, I am always quick to compliment that intellectual pool that is now at the helm of the PGA tour. Brian Rollup comes in having achieved great success in his team, the SSG. You look at what Fenway sports has done. You look at what Arthur Blank has done, Steve Cohen has done. You cannot deny that they've been monstrously successful at creating value in sports leagues. But what I, and their model of scarcity has certainly worked there and, you know, they're, it sounds like they're trying to create the same sort of scarcity environment at the PGA tour. I would argue that the PGA tour is different than every other sport. You watch every other sport for purely entertainment reasons. Nobody's watching Tom Brady throw a football, trying to figure out if they can throw a football better. Nobody's watching anybody bat trying to remember, you know, how they see if they can bat better.

48:14Or nobody's watching Steph Curry and trying to go on out and trying to work on their three. Nobody's doing a few hundred people in college sports or high school sports, maybe. But nobody's doing it. Every single person who's watching a golf tournament is watching it, not just for entertainment, but also for participatory reasons. So golf is a different sport and the level of play, the density of talent is much, much more compacted and golf than any other sport. The difference between the best quarterback and the average quarterback and the worst quarterback on the NFL is about 20 to 40%. I mean, it's massive. You can see like when the Broncos lose bow next, it's like, it's, you know, it's over. Well, go just look at the completion percentages, go back, you have the quarterback rating present. Look at any metric you want. Now go look at the scoring average of Scotty Sheffler and whoever's a hundredth and scoring average and whoever's last. And it's three percent, three and a half percent, seven percent.

49:14And the pipelines need to be kept open to whatever degree. They reduce the number of tour cards to whatever degree they reduce the size of fields, to whatever degree they reduce the number of tournaments. They are guaranteed to deliver a less competitive product to the audience. They're guaranteed. It's easier to win a tournament with a hundred players than it is 150. Easier to win one with 70 than 120. You know, you go back and look at the WGCs and essentially that's the model that I hear them. If it were just WGCs, why did Tiger win about half of them when his overall tour win percentage was 22%. The WGCs lost value. They lost the interest. You were watching, there were no comeback stories. You were watching the same players play weekend and weekend, year in and year out. And they lost the novelty of the Jake maps that come along that pop up out of nowhere. Because golf is so compacted with talent, the pipelines are important.

50:19And so they're talking about scarcity. And, you know, they should, in my view, the opposite should be true. As long as the last man in a golf tournament can win or last woman in a golf tournament could win, you should be trying to expand the product, not reduce it in my view. But again, these guys are really smart. I love the players that are on the PGA tour policy board. They're all thoughtful, smart people. So I'm in a weight and C mode, but with some caveats and apprehensions. I'll tell you my issue with the WGCs. The first two rounds were just so sleepy. And I have been, you know, a big proponent of the cut. I think the cut is a unique thing that we have in our sport. You've got to turn them in. Just look last week, right? Scotty Sheffler trying to keep his streak alive. He fist pumps after making, you know, a six footer for par on the last hole. If there's no cut, he's not fist pumping that putt. Isn't something lost if we get rid of cuts?

51:19We took the words right out of my mouth. I mean, would we have cared if he made that putt up? There was no cut. Not at all. And it ended up being this fantastic moment. That day, I think I was, I did grow central that night. And there was this young Kenyan by the name of Kabugu, who eagle the last hole to make the cut at the Kenyan event. And then there was Scotty Sheffler who air punched to make the cut at the Genesis. And I just juxtaposed the two. And I'm like, this is what the world of professional golf is about. On Friday, this is drama. You know, these are, these are, these are, this was Friday. And it felt like a Sunday with those two moments. And yes, the cut, I think is very important. I mean, Tigers set as much, Jack has set as much. And, and maybe the number they're going to settle on is 125 players. 20 events a year is what they're shooting for. And, and some kind of cut. But I would argue that. You know, first of all, you know, how can the game be bursting at the scenes recreationally?

52:19You, you're a golfer. You know this. It's bursting at the scenes. It's almost impossible just spur of the moment to go play golf somewhere. Cost of fortune because the product is in such demand. Viewer ship is up. People are loving the game. We've got a dominant superstar. I, I think it's a solution looking for a problem personally. I don't see the problem with the game of golf. Other than the fact that, you know, private equity guys want to liquidity event to 10X their money. So I'm a little nervous that. In the quest to create a big profit, which now because tour players are equity stakeholders. And this is one of the reasons why I think it's in their best interest to make the players make it. Because that would increase the value of the PGA tour. They're looking for a liquidity event somewhere down the road. And to do that, maybe they do need to reduce the size of golf terms or the number of golf tournaments. And treat each golf tournament as a franchise and try to create value within that franchise. That sounds to me like they're what their model is. But the idea of having 20 select golf tournaments is it's really nothing new in the game of golf.

53:24You know, the game of golf always had the majors. Since they're mid samities, the players, it had the World Series of golf. It had the invitations, which was what the memorial, the auto Palmer invitations colonial. To some extent, the Byron Nelson. It had the Western open at the tournament of champions. It had tournaments where everybody played the Dorao and the hope and the AT&T. You had all those up. And those were quote unquote the elevated events. And then the secondary events, the BC opens the quad cities. The Hawaiian Open Tucson Memphis, Bank of Boston Classic, Vegas. Haddiesburg, Cajun Classic. It's always had this two tiered system. And from a scarcity standpoint, the stars have always been scarce. Jack from 62 to 86 average 16 tournaments a year. 16 tournaments. That means he had 36 weeks off. You want an off season? They got it. They just break it up throughout the year.

54:2436 weeks off. Tiger Woods. On average, he plays 17 tournaments in his prime. So he similarly had two thirds of the year off. That's an off season. He just breaks it up and golf's not a physical sport where they need to rehabilitate. The same way they do and basketball or maybe baseball, but certainly football. It doesn't have that kind of wrecking nature on the on the body. So you mentioned Brian Rolap and the new PGA tour leadership. How do you think history will look back on Jamana hands tenure? That he probably got some of the worst breaks in the history of golf. Look, descended upon him was live. Okay, we could. We can debate in a minute about how you handle that or could have handled it. And then COVID. I mean, those are one two punches that you could have never ever conceived of. And people are saying, well, I kind of handle live better. Okay, maybe. But if you're the CEO of BMW and Mercedes says we're going to keep building amazing cars.

55:32But we're going to give them way for free. Guess what you're not doing, selling any BMWs. And now I see a crappy CEO because he actually cares about making a profit or a legitimate return. You know, I mean, you it's hard to. To criticize somebody who is competing with an irrational actor in the sport. And that's what Jay Monahan was was was dealt with. You know, and when you look at our head to deal with, when you look at past commissioners. You know, Dean's going to always be tough to beat. I mean, Dean was a visionary, a monumental visionary. The retirement plan, stadium golf, the Ben Hogan tour. Dean Beaman initiative, Tim Finchum similarly. He was a players commissioner. He really was a very bright man.

56:35You know, Jay Monahan had a tough act to follow. And then on on top of that, he got two 500 year floods that you could have never predicted thrown in his face. And I've never met anybody that knows Jay. I think the world of him and you know, I go to the the TPC occasionally just with groups and. I talk to the staff and they they absolutely love Jay Monahan as a leader. So I don't know that history will treating well. And I don't know that that's fair. So you've been an outspoken critic or or I guess opposing the rollback. Then I was wondering what's wrong with my voice today. I was I was initially on that. And then I've kind of changed in recent years. I just feel like with with the I test what my what my I see. So there's been six events on the PGA tour so far this year. The winning scores minus 16 minus 27 minus 23 and minus 16 minus 22 minus 18. And I know you've made arguments that sports evolve and sports change. And there are different ways that you can limit the best players in the world with with architecture and with design and with setups.

57:41Is there anything that you could see that would change your mind? That's a good question. I feel like the rollback. See if I can is there anything that I would see that would change yes. Yes, if if I saw that the game disproportionately. Rewarded. Wedges. Overlongings. If I saw that the game no longer no longer it was important to hit it long and straight. It's still very important to hit it long straight. And the most important aspect of the game of the longest irons. The longest approach shots. Those are still the most important aspects of the game if I saw that. Those two were taken away from the game. Yeah, I feel like the the rollback is. And this is the power of one hole and golf. I feel like the rollback is about one hole and off.

58:42That's right. You know, there's there's such a. We are so all of us so invested in the back nine at Augusta National. And in particular at the 13th hole. So many and the word is momentous. It should be a momentous decision. So many momentous moments have happened there. And that stretch of golf. It's sort of a landlocked you know it backs up against Augusta Country Club. And the idea of watching people hit wedges in there and and. You know Augusta National the one thing it's always done. Is maybe better than any other course on the planet is evolve. With the advances in technology and the game. But in violet is the architecture of that hole. It was I think Bobby Jones said the first hole he discovered on the property. That was just laying there waiting to be discovered.

59:44So it means so much. You know, if Augusta National just had a golf ball for Augusta National. That would be fine. That would be fine. You know, I don't know how difficult that would be to do. You know, you've got to play this particular golf ball. Maybe the players would be in an up or over it because. You know, they're all tailor made specifics to their to their game. But the game I used to be. And I still am by the way. I would be for bifurcation. Bifurcation makes the most sense. I don't see any problem. You'd be okay with the like similar to baseball, right? You get to a certain level. You play with the wooden bats. You play with the pro ball. You play with a bifurcation. These are the problems. Is that tour pros don't play for they don't pay for equipment. So the only people that would pay play the shorter hitting equipment. Would be tour pros. So all of the manufacturers.

1:00:44Would have to. Take those cost and and pass them on to everybody else. So we would all be paying for the professional golf equipment. You know, the one thing I think that the world's gotten wrong about the advances in technology is so called tiger proofing golf courses. Every effort they've made to tiger proofs, they tiger preference golf courses, not tiger proof them. If you want to tiger proof of golf course, just take a page out of the TPC sawgrass. Again, that's why I have so much respect for it. It's not a long golf course. But that matter nor is Riviera. It's it's not a long golf course. And it was difficult for tiger to play well there because of the design elements into it. So I used to be for a rollback. Absolutely. And then I spent an inordinate amount of time looking about how has the game materially changed. And I couldn't find any way that the game had materially changed.

1:01:45Yes, players are longer. They were longer in the 60s than they were in the 20s. But it's never been the case that long hitters who also hit it straight didn't dominate. Sam's need dominated sort of the point, right? It's always been the case that short hitters could compete. And if they were amazing, they could get their share. Lee Trevino did fine. Okay, Calvin Pete did fine. Tom Kite did fine. Fred funk did fine. David Tom's Matt Kutcher. Call him or call him. He's doing fine. But he's never going to beat Tiger Woods. Never. And they're never going to beat Jack Nicholas. They were never going to beat Sam's need or Bobby Jones or Ben Hogan. Because if you hit it long and straight, you're going to beat people. And the game hasn't materially changed in that aspect. So.

1:02:45And again, you know, I think the best definition or the best analogy I can come up with for changing the game. Is none of the 50 million golfers in the world are for changing rolling up a golf ball back. And when I say none of them, I mean, yes, there's a few hundred that are in favor of it. Okay, a few hundred, maybe it is a very click. Some of which have microphones, right? So that, you know, changes the perception. Very, very clickish small group of people, architectural. People in architecture, architecture of geeks. A few notable players for sure. But 50 million people are not for that play the game. The none of the PGA professionals golf professionals in this country are for it. And the vast number of professional golfers are not for it. The vast number. So in my estimation, there's roughly 10,000 professional golfers in the world that play the game for a living. You know, if you go look at the Japanese tour and the Australasian tour, the women's tour, the Korean tour.

1:03:45You add all those numbers up, it comes to around 10,000. There's 50 million offers. Divide 10,000 into 50 million. And you get 0.003. And to me, that's wanting to drain an Olympic-sized swimming pool because somebody spit in it. You know, it's looking for, it's a solution looking for a problem. And it's pointless and it hurts everybody in the game of golf. Except a few people who think that the game would be marvelously transformed into some other time period than the current one where the game was better. And that's always been the argument that's always been the case. And meanwhile, they've not raised the rim and basketball. And in other words, they've added a three-point line. They're all four offense. In football, they let receivers wear gloves.

1:04:47Ruined the sport, in my view. Ruined the records. Absolutely abolished all the records. The completion percentages of the 50, 60, 70s mean nothing because guys can do one-handed catches because they got those sticky gloves on. It ruined the wide receiver numbers. All of that. But what did it make better? Offense excitement. I'm not saying that there's been anything come along like the sticky gloves in football and golf. But maybe those, you know, people who take the other side of it would say it's the big-headed driver or the golf ball. But it's made the game more exciting, more fun for recreational golfers. And it hasn't materially changed the game at the professional level. Yeah, so I guess what I'm hearing is you saying, like, you know, basketball has changed, like materially the way that it's played, right? Like there's way more three pointers that are shot, right? Like that's, and that's, I found it to be a much worse product than it was, you know, when I was a kid, you know, there's no post ups.

1:05:49There's no. What you're saying is, yeah, the scores might be lower or the players might be longer, but you're saying the sort of formula that produces that number has not changed. It was the longest straightest era in the game. It is Scotty Shephard. He dominates. He dominates in a way that everybody who argues for a rollback says couldn't happen because the equipment has made it very hard to separate yourself. I find it somewhat ironic that the greatest two separations in the last 40 years have happened in a period where people say it's impossible to separate yourself in the game. Nobody separated themselves like Tiger. Well, the numbers for CO are the numbers for M.O.I. They were well in effect in 2003. It didn't stop Tiger Woods for separating himself from 2003 to 2013. And it hasn't stopped Scotty Shephard. And in that period, Roy's had great runs and speech had great funds and Brooks kept his head great.

1:06:49So players are clearly able to separate themselves in dominating ways with this equipment. And it's still about who hits at the longest and straightest first and foremost. It's still about who hits their long irons the best first and foremost. And then the other factors of the game matter less so, but they still matter. My last question. I could sit here all day and pick your brain. I'm really enjoying this. My last question for you. You posted some very interesting statistics about putting and about, you know, make percentages. You know, anytime you post something like that, there's a strong blowback. You know, I saw some numbers saying, well, that doesn't take into account. You know, maybe they were calibrating shot link and, you know, maybe pin positions have gotten harder. And maybe, you know, greens have gotten faster. But I think the core of your point was, you know, all this coaching and I employing and all these devices haven't necessarily made these geniuses better. Do you do you believe that? Do you believe that the modern player is overcoached? Well, first of all, that's not the first time I've posted that.

1:07:51And I've set it on the air and I've used it on the air and I've posted, I didn't cherry pick 2005. I've used every single year. It's just that the first couple of years of shot link and that's 2003 and 2004. The numbers looked a little dubious. I don't know that they were, but they looked, they didn't look like they were correct. So I used 2005 because I could go every single year. I could have done that. But if you'll notice in that tweet, I didn't add any commentary to it because I was interested in the commentary that I would get back. Because there are so many possible contributing factors to the outcome of those numbers. I would argue that the greens are better, that agronomy is better, that you're able to type that tap down spike marks. And if you believe in the virtues of Sam lab. And highly specialized coaching and putting over the last 20 years and the validity of aim point.

1:08:52And the green reading books that are available to some degree, obviously they can't carry them out on the golf course, but they can look at them at night before they go out and play. Et cetera, et cetera, you'd think that there would have been at least some substantial improvement in putting. It's curious to me that there hasn't been. So I was just curious at some of the commentary, people were saying that the whole locations were harder, more difficult. Maybe that's the case, you know, I've greens are faster. You know, I would be curious at what speed, what is the optimal holding speed of greens to me. It's it's smooth, fairly fast greens. But that was just a one particular tweet that I put out that I was, I was literally interested in the comments. I just wanted to see what people in the game thought about that. And, and you know, there were some interesting like, you know, Justin Ray is always an interesting follow he took out.

1:09:55He didn't tweet this, he just messaged me, he took out because in 2005, they didn't have shot link in the US open. And the open and the PGA. And he took out those numbers for 2025 because they did include the US open, the open and the PGA. And the numbers more accurately lined up, although there was still a slighted poversment in 2025. But it was closer to even. But either way, if they haven't gotten better in 20 years, I found that very surprising. I chart every shot that's on TV. And I make notes of when somebody's using a point. And whether they make it or miss it. Look, if I ran Ampoint, and I'm not saying that it's, you know, I don't know what I'd like to see is the data. If I were in charge of running Ampoint. And Daniel rap poor came to work with me. I would log your last year.

1:10:57I would log your last three months. And very specific criteria. Then I would log the next three months after we start working together. And I would log the next year. And then I would log two years down. And I would, because I would want to know objectively, if what I was showing you was helping. And I would do that with every single player. So that I objectively can say it makes everybody better. It makes 75% of the people better, 52% of the people better. And they specifically improve in this area. I would want to know that data. I'm curious as to why that data doesn't exist. We can leave it at that. Yeah. That's curious to me. Why that data doesn't exist. Well, I just want to thank you for coming on. This has been a hugely illuminating, you know, 40 minutes we've been going here. I'm going to let you go. But I just want to congratulate you on all of your success. And, you know, people, people might love you. People might love you less. But they can't say that you're not prepared and that you don't care about this game.

1:11:59And deliver, you know, a product that I think stands above on television. So thank you for all your work. And I appreciate you coming on the show. That's very kind of you, Dan. Thank you very much. Always a pleasure talking to you. Take care. I look forward to seeing you down the road. Absolutely. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Company. No matter how you do a game day, on the couch, in the crowd, or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right in. With a full lineup of non-alcoholic beer styles, you can enjoy bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the second half. Stuck the fridge for tip-off with a variety of non-alcoholic craft styles available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com.

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