Liz Golyar: Obsession, Stalking, and Murder Pt. 1

0:00Hi listeners, it's Vanessa. Are you the type to fall down an internet rabbit hole and not come up for hours? You'll love crimes of Reddit. A new crime house original with Sabrina, Diana, Roge, and Alexis Linklenter. Every week, one host brings real true crime stories from Reddit, while the other reacts completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, then they swab. It's the feeling of sending your group chat a Reddit 2am that starts with, you have to see this. But Sabrina and Alexis are in the chat with you. Follow crimes of Reddit on Apple podcasts and Spotify, or subscribe at crimes of Reddit pod on YouTube. This is Crime House. Dating can feel like a gamble. Maybe you'll click with the other person right away, or maybe you'll regret meeting them before the appetizers even arrive.

1:01In the 2010s, a man named Dave Krupa took that gamble and landed the worst possible outcome. Because Dave's date wasn't just a liar or cheater, she was a cold-blooded killer. Unfortunately, Dave had no way of knowing that. But until the woman he became involved with chipped away at the life he knew, until there was nothing left but heartbreak and tragedy. The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is serial killers and murderous minds, a crime house original. I'm Vanessa Richardson. My name is Forensic Psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels.

2:04Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer. Crime House exists because of listeners like you. And even more, join Crime House Plus and get both parts of every story dropped on the same Monday, completely ad-free. No waiting three days for part two, plus crime house bonus episodes every month. To join, go to crimehouseplus.com, or if you listen on Apple Podcasts, tap Try Free at the top of the serial killers and murderous minds page. Before we get started, be advised that this episode contains discussion of sex, animal cruelty, and murder. So please listen with care. Today, we begin our deep dive into Liz Gullier, a jealous ex-lover whose vengeful fury knew no bounds. In the 2010s, Liz met a man who set her heart on fire. But when she realized their romance wouldn't last, her intentions turned deadly. For years, Liz masterminded a web of fear and lies until eventually investigators started

3:08tracing each thread right back to her. As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how some violent offenders are fueled by jealousy and romantic obsession, how they use cyberstocking to create a state of chronic paranoia, and how a stalker can manipulate victims into dismantling their own support system. And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer? In the summer of 2012, 35-year-old Dave Krupa was ready for a fresh start. He and the mother of his children, Amy Flora, had just ended their 12-year relationship. After the split, Dave moved to an apartment complex in Omaha, Nebraska near the auto-body shop he managed. Although he had partial custody of their two kids, Dave was living the bachelor lifestyle for the first time since his 20s. That meant a lot of microwave meals and time spent alone.

4:08And his kids were away, he was ready to start dating again. This was the golden age of online dating, and Dave's preferred site was plenty of fish, which he used to scroll through thousands of photos of single women in his area. Dave was a healthy guy and a former member of the National Guard, so he wasn't worried about meeting strangers on the internet. He could take care of himself. Plus, after a decade-long relationship, he just wanted to have a little fun. One night, he came across a woman's profile that caught his eye. Her name was Shana Elizabeth Gahlier, and she went by Liz. She was an attractive 37-year-old brunette, and she looked like a lot of fun. Plus, she drove motorcycles just like him. Dave sent Liz a message. They got to talking. And when she said she was also looking for something casual, they agreed to meet for a date. The two of them hit it off. Liz told Dave about the housekeeping business she owned. There were two kids and there were four pets. Dave felt like they had a lot in common.

5:09They kept meeting for coffee, and on their fifth date, they started sleeping together. Almost from the beginning, Liz started developing deeper feelings for Dave, but he was still only interested in something casual. Over time, he'd realized Liz wasn't as well-read as he would have liked. Plus, he was seeing and sleeping with multiple women. He was playing the field, not ready to settle down. Dave was up front with Liz about the fact that he was seeing other people. She pretended to be okay with it, but her actions said otherwise. She'd contact Dave regularly asking to hang out. And if he said he had a date, Liz would offer to come over and have sex beforehand. Dave found her behavior unattractive. He didn't want a serious relationship with Liz, but he continued sleeping with her anyway. He enjoyed their sexual chemistry and didn't want to give it up. Whenever you start dating someone, being open and upfront about your expectations and your intentions is really important.

6:11Not only does it save time, but it reduces the likelihood of leading someone on. It prevents unnecessary hurt feelings, and it helps filter out people whose expectations aren't aligned with yours. So Dave being up front that he was only interested in dating casually was important, particularly because he'd come out of a 12-year relationship, and he had two children who were also adjusting to that change. But communicating your intentions is only half of it. You also have to be willing to maintain boundaries when someone's behavior tells you that they may not be willing to or able to accept your expectations. And Liz's behavior here is an indication of that. Like you said, her actions were telling him something different, offering to sleep with him before he went on a date with someone else suggests to me that this was affecting her emotionally. At this point, I don't know if it was jealousy and security fear of abandonment or something else, but this is a pretty good indication that this arrangement is not working for her. And that's where both of them had choices to make.

7:11For Liz, that meant being honest with herself about whether she could actually tolerate a casual relationship with Dave. If what she really wanted was to be exclusive or to be committed, then the healthier choice for her would be to communicate that and then walk away if Dave couldn't offer it. And for Dave, that means the same. Being clear about something casual and wanting that didn't completely absolve him of responsibility once he recognized that Liz was becoming more invested or wanting something more. If someone is saying they're okay with an arrangement, but their behavior suggests that they're struggling with that, then it's also on him to make a decision to end it then. Well, Dave thought it would help if he encouraged Liz to see other men, but she refused. In fact, she'd already deleted her dating profile. Dave shrugged it off, but eventually he reached his breaking point. When Liz started accusing him of sleeping with his ex-girlfriend and co-parent Amy, she brought it up constantly until Dave couldn't take it anymore and he ended things.

8:12However, Liz wouldn't accept the breakup. A few weeks later, she called Dave and asked for his help with something around the house. He came over and they ended up sleeping together. The cycle continued from there. Dave and Liz saw each other on and off for the next four months and Liz seemed to think they'd be together forever. She bombarded him with emails detailing her fantasies of their future together. After a while, Dave knew he couldn't let this go on, so he told Liz he wanted to stop seeing her and as she reeled from the rejection, Dave happily moved on with someone new. A couple weeks earlier, 37-year-old Carrie Farver had walked into Dave's auto shop. Carrie needed some work done on her Ford Explorer. Carrie was tall with striking hazel eyes. Dave was instantly attracted to her, but he felt like it would be unprofessional to ask a client out on a date, so he didn't say anything. Lucky for him, he stumbled upon Carrie's dating profile shortly after, right around when he broke up with Liz again.

9:14They got to talking and Dave was happy to learn that Carrie was interested in him, too. On October 29, 2012, they went on their first date. Dave learned that Carrie was a computer programmer and single mother. She was raising her son Maxwell in Macedonia, Iowa, where she grew up, about 30 miles from Omaha. Carrie was hardworking and down to earth. Dave couldn't get enough of her. However, halfway through the date, his phone started vibrating and wouldn't stop. It was Liz. Dave ignored her, but Liz called and texted him over 20 times in 10 minutes. Dave thought something might be wrong, so the next time Liz called, he excused himself and picked up. That's when Liz told him she desperately needed some things she'd left at his apartment. Dave was confused. Liz only had some t-shirts, a toothbrush, and some frying pans at his place. He was honest and told her he was on a date and that it wasn't a good time. He returned to the table and he and Carrie picked up right where they left off.

10:17Things went so well, he invited Carrie to come back to his place. She agreed. But once they got there, they barely had time to remove their jackets before the doorbell rang. It was Liz. She'd showed up unannounced and on the brink of a meltdown. When Dave told her she couldn't come inside, she burst into tears and tried to push her away past him, demanding her things back. Dave was angry, but he also felt embarrassed for Liz. So he asked her to give him a minute before he let her in. Dave then shut the door and told Carrie what was going on. Carrie was understanding. She told Dave to call her later when things calmed down. Dave walked Carrie out and as they made their way down the hall, they crossed paths with Liz, who glared at Carrie with hatred in her eyes. That's an average of one caller text about every 30 seconds. If he hadn't answered, that likely would have continued just based on that alone and that's concerning. I also find it suspicious that she suddenly needed something so desperately at that exact

11:20moment that he was on a date. And to me, that raised a suspicion for stalking behavior. And given that her behavior seems to escalate specifically when Dave is on a date or preparing for a date or interacting with the mother of his children, I think jealousy and feeling that her relationship with him is threatened are likely at the root of this behavior. She seems to have difficulty tolerating situations when his attention is directed toward other women. That could be driven by insecurity, fear of rejection or abandonment, possessiveness or just this need for reassurance. But when these feelings, whatever they are, are triggered, behaviorally, she attempts to regain his access and attention in some very alarming ways. But this goes beyond ordinary infatuation or jealousy. Twenty plus attempts to contact someone in ten minutes, followed by physically showing up to their home, even after they said it was not a good time. That's alarming and it indicates that she's having an increasingly difficult time regulating

12:22her behavior. Does Liz's behavior raise any red flags about what she might do in the future? Yes. But obviously, we aren't psychic. We can't predict what she'll do next and when she'll do anything, but there are definitely red flags here that would make me pay attention to the direction that this behavior is going. And the first being the escalation that we just talked about, when she's feeling her access is slipping from him, her behavior intensifies. Just how you described her behavior on the phone alone, the urgency, the distress, over items that she desperately needed that were not at all urgent items, that's a red flag. The level of emotion is disproportionate alongside with the timing and the amount of calls. And then, as I mentioned, there's a strong suspicion for stalking behavior that I'm having. But Dave in that moment is likely not thinking that he's being surveilled at all. His thinking is likely narrowed and distracted by her obvious distress, not by the timing or of the intention of this. So we look at the trajectory.

13:23Her behavior is becoming more intense. It's more frequent, more intrusive and crossing more boundaries. I'd be curious to see her reaction and her behavior when he sets a boundary. The first time when he did, he broke it off, she called him for help. And that's how things rekindled. So how will she respond next? Will she respond by meeting him? And separation and rejection can be important periods of risk for cases that do involve stalking if that's what's occurring here. But that's not to say that all cases are similar and that they all lead to violence, but it's certainly not something to ignore. Unfortunately, stalking cases that do lead to violence, intervention in those cases arrived too late. And we need to reform stalking laws. Whatever Liz took from that night, it didn't slow her down because after Carrie left his place, Dave let Liz in. She continued crying and they argued for a while, but he eventually calmed her down and she left.

14:23Once Liz was gone, Dave called Carrie. He told her he was alone now. She was already about halfway home, so she invited him to her house in Macedonia. Her son was at his grandparents for the evening. Dave agreed. He got into his car and drove to Carrie's place. Once he got there, they kept getting to know each other. Carrie explained that she'd had relationships that soured and she wasn't ready to be tied down again. So right now, she just wanted something casual. It was music to Dave's ears. He and Carrie were on the same page. He stayed over that night and even though they weren't getting serious, they saw each other almost every day over the next two weeks. Dave hadn't felt this excited about someone in a long time. It made him realize how much Liz's hovering and jealousy had been weighing him down. Carrie helped him forget all of that, for the most part, because just days after his first date with Carrie, Liz started sending Dave more emails. First, she wanted to know if they were really over or if there was still a chance for them.

15:24Just later, she sent another email saying she should have hugged him the last time she saw him, but she didn't know she was saying goodbye. Dave ignored both messages. Less than 24 hours later, Liz wrote again. This time, she said she got the hint. They were clearly done. Dave hoped Liz really did understand that they were over and he kept spending all his free time with Carrie. However, just a few days after sending her last email, Liz called him. She said she wanted the frying pans she'd left to this place. Dave agreed to drop them off at hers. As soon as he walked through Liz's front door that evening, she came on to him. Dave decided to ignore everything that happened between them recently. The calls, the emails, showing up at his house, the red flags didn't matter to Dave in that moment, and they slept together that night. To Dave, it was a one-off thing, but to Liz, it was a clear sign that things weren't over between them. This is what I was talking about earlier.

16:25Liz found something she needed from Dave. In this case, it was returning her things. That kept the dialogue open, the connection to him, and then they became intimate, which to her, I believe is what reestablishes the attachment. It's the same pattern we saw the last time he ended things. She needed something. He came over. They became intimate, and then they were reconnected again. There could also be an element of validation here. Liz has been pulling away from her because he's become interested in Kerry. They're more compatible, and it's been easier with her. If Liz is experiencing that as a rejection, getting him to become intimate with her again could be reassuring to her that she still has access to him, that he still desires her, or that Kerry hasn't actually replaced her. It may also restore a sense of control for her, especially when her other efforts, like calling, texting, and showing up unannounced, have actually failed. Liz also goes back to what we were talking about earlier with regard to boundaries, because Davis communicating one thing, and then participating in something that communicates another.

17:29He can tell Liz that the relationship is over, but when he continues engaging with her, sexually, he's creating ambiguity around a boundary that he had already verbally communicated pretty clearly to her, and people do this all the time, even when they recognize red flags. The immediate rewards can outweigh the consequences. To him, there was mutual attraction. They had history together. Sex was familiar and available, and to him, he has already communicated that he is not wanting a relationship with her, so he's been clear. But today, this was sex with an ex and nothing more, but to Liz, it seemed to mean something much more, something like reconciliation. Those are two very different interpretations of the same interaction. Now, that's said. I want to be very clear about something, because we're going to talk about boundaries throughout this case. Inconsistent boundaries do not give another person permission to harass, stalk, threaten, manipulate, or harm you. We can look at Davis' decisions and understand how they may have complicated this dynamic without

18:32assigning him responsibility for Liz's behavior. She's still responsible for her own choices. After their recent encounter, Dave brushed Liz off again. He kept spending all his time with Carey. He even let her move into his apartment temporarily, because he lived closer to where she worked. On the morning of Tuesday, November 13, 2012, Dave and Carey both woke up in his bed. Dave had to be at the shop by 6.30am. As he walked out the door, he turned back to admire Carey. She was on the couch in her pajamas, typing on her laptops, surrounded by workpapers. He already couldn't wait to see her later that evening. He had no idea that would be the last time he ever saw Carey. In the fall of 2012, Dave, Crouppa, and Carey Farver were casually seeing each other and

19:33having a great time, which left Dave's ex-flang Liz Gawlier, reeling with heartbreak and jealousy. Carey's had repeatedly tried to get back together with Dave, but he wasn't interested. All his attention was on Carey. In November of that year, Carey was temporarily crashing at Dave's apartment. On the morning of the 13th, Dave left for work at around 6.20am. As he stepped out the door, Carey was getting work done from home before heading into the office later that morning. But Carey never showed up to work that day, which was highly unusual for her. The whole reason she was staying with Dave was because he lived a lot closer to her office than she did. She had a big project underway and wanted to get to work promptly each day. In fact, Carey had called in at 6.15 that morning with an update on her coding, so her coworkers were concerned when there was no sign of her and no answer when her supervisor tried to reach her. Dave had no idea about any of this, so he was shocked when he received a text from

20:34Carey's number at 10am asking to permanently move in together. Dave was stunned. He and Carey had only been seeing each other for two weeks, and they'd agreed to keep things casual. He didn't expect this from her at all. Unsure of what to say, he simply replied, no. Twenty seconds later, an angry text came back, breaking things off. More followed, short and hostile, saying things like, you've ruined my life, and I never want to see you again. Dave couldn't understand what was happening. He'd never seen this side of Carey. He still had no idea that he never showed up for work, so he didn't expect to see her when he went home for lunch, but he was surprised to see that all her things were gone. To him, it was clear, Carey had packed up and left. Dave was disappointed that things had ended so abruptly, but he also felt like Carey clearly had an unstable side, and that he'd dodged a bullet. Meanwhile, other people were becoming concerned about Carey's mental health, too.

21:37That same day, Carey's mother, Nancy Rainey, received a strange text from her. Nancy lived in Macedonia, Iowa, and had been watching Carey's son, Max, while Carey stayed at Dave's. The message said that she'd taken a new job. Nancy found this odd, but she figured Carey would tell her more when she came to pick up Max later that evening. However, Carey never showed, and she stopped responding to Nancy's calls and texts. Nancy knew something had to be wrong, especially because Carey had a history of mental health struggles. A doctor had once diagnosed her with bipolar disorder, though Nancy had always doubted that diagnosis, and the other doctors Carey saw never made it. Either way, she wasn't taking chances, so on Friday, November 16th, she reported Carey missing to the Potawatomi County Sheriff's Office. She told the deputy about the bipolar diagnosis and explained that Carey had never had a major episode. She also told them about Dave, the new guy Carey had been seeing and staying with.

22:38So a couple days later, officers visited Dave's auto shop to ask about Carey. Dave said he didn't know where she was, but he showed them their recent texts, including the bizarre string of messages he'd received since the day she moved out. After since, Carey's messages had been non-stop, and they'd become more aggressive. They said things like, you're a bastard, and I'm going to destroy the things you care about. It was a totally disproportionate reaction to Dave not wanting to move in together after two weeks. Given that information, the officers chalked it up to a bitter breakup, especially since Carey had a bipolar diagnosis. They thanked Dave and went on their way. This is a great opportunity to talk about how historically serious mental health symptoms or conditions in women have been dismissed or misinterpreted. Historia is probably one of the most infamous examples. The concept actually dates back thousands of years, but by the 19th century, hysteria

23:39had become a widely used medical diagnosis that was disproportionately applied to women. Women who are experiencing things like anxiety, depression, trauma, physical complaints, and even neurological symptoms would be characterized as hysterical. We don't diagnose women with hysteria anymore, but unfortunately, some of that gender-biased thinking hasn't completely disappeared, and that can be particularly concerning when law enforcement is involved. Like this. Carey has been reported to law enforcement by her mother, and she mentioned her mental health history and a breakup because she thought it may be relevant. If someone suddenly disappears and begins behaving drastically different, a psychiatric episode is one possibility investigators should know and consider. It just shouldn't be the only possibility they investigate. And now that Dave is showing similar erratic messages to them, they could be anchoring their investigation under the belief that Carey leaving is because of a psychiatric episode,

24:43and based on that, they could stop considering alternative explanations. And that's dangerous. How rare is it for someone with well-managed bipolar disorder to suddenly experience a total catastrophic break from their baseline identity like this, abandoning a job and a child overnight? So I'll start by saying, someone with bipolar disorder could absolutely experience a severe episode that causes traumatic changes in their behavior even after a sustained period of stabilization. That does happen. What would make me pause here is the lack of an indication that an episode was developing. We often see early warning signs before there's any kind of relapse, although those very from person to person aren't always recognized in real time by the people around them, and Dave isn't necessarily trained to recognize what those signs might look like. So he could have observed something without understanding its significance, and we don't know that. So what we would be looking for would be evidence of the episode itself, things like significant

25:48changes in sleep, in mood, energy or activity, and their speech-racing thoughts, impulsivity or reckless behavior, grandiosity or signs of psychosis. So in other words, we'd want evidence that Carey was actually entering a manic, depressive, mixed or psychotic state. But based on what you've described here, we don't have evidence of that. She was sleeping at his house. She was working on a big project. She was trying to be closer to work. She called into work before she went in there to update them on coding. She wasn't really acting any differently based on her baseline that we know of. There wasn't any notable changes in speech. There wasn't any impulsivity or reckless behavior, at least according to what Dave has reported. Dave has only known her for a limited period of time, too. So acting differently and sending angry messages is not enough to establish that someone's entering a bipolar episode or a relapse. So we'd want to see more in order to establish that.

26:52Since the police didn't take the matter seriously, that meant Carey's mom Nancy still had no answers. And soon the situation got more bizarre. As shortly after filing the Missing Persons report, she received a message from Carey on Facebook saying she wasn't missing. She just didn't want to come home right now. Nancy was immediately suspicious. First of all, she had no idea how Carey would have known that she'd been reported missing. She also knew Carey would never up and leave her son. And as a final cherry on top, the messages were riddled with spelling and grammar errors, which was completely unlike her. As Nancy read and reread the words on the screen, she became convinced that Carey wasn't actually the one messaging her. Someone had hacked into her account. But who? Meanwhile, Dave was still getting a constant stream of nasty messages from Carey. At this point, the police thought they could use the messages to try and find her. They tried to track the location of her phone. But even though they zeroed in on a location, when they got there, Carey was nowhere to be

27:56found. It was a residential area, and they knocked on doors, but no one had seen her. Investigators also couldn't find Carey's Ford Explorer anywhere either. Despite being seemingly right on top of her, she somehow kept evading them. Dave may have thought Carey didn't want to be found, especially when he started getting messages supposedly from her, but from various phone numbers and email addresses, which all used some variation of Carey's name. The messages were extremely threatening. One even said Carey was sending two men after Dave. Dave blocked every new number and email address, but the messages kept coming, and pretty soon they showed a motive for all the hostility. The messages started focusing on Liz Gahlier. They called Liz names and blamed her for the fallout of Dave and Carey's relationship. Now Dave was confused, and soon that confusion spiraled into alarm, because one night, Liz

28:57showed up at Dave's apartment, terrified. Apparently Carey was messaging her too. Even worse, someone had broken into her garage and stolen a book of checks. And Liz got a text afterwards, threatening to do worse unless she left Dave alone. Dave couldn't understand why Carey would be so fixated on Liz. She knew he wasn't interested in a serious relationship with her, and while he hadn't expected to see Liz again, the situation seemed to bring them together. He apologized to her for what was happening, and she reassured him it wasn't his fault. Over the next few days, Dave kept hoping things would simmer down, but they only got worse. On November 23rd, 2012, he received a picture from Carey. It was inside a dining room. Dave recognized it immediately. It was Liz's dining room. Then he got another text from Carey that said, she left the garage door open. Dave was afraid of what Carey might be capable of.

29:59He got into his car and sped over to Liz's house. When he arrived, Liz was already outside, visibly shaken. She told him her garage had been vandalized. She showed Dave the words, whore from Dave, spray painted across the garage wall. And she told him she was afraid for her children's safety. Dave immediately called the Omaha police. He told them what happened and that he thought Carey was behind it. But since no one could actually get a hold of Carey, there wasn't much they could do. Dave decided it was his job to protect Liz. Their past drama was nothing compared to what was going on with Carey. That night, their chemistry was rekindled, and Liz and Dave started sleeping together again. Dave is being digitally harassed, and the person whom he presently believes is Carey, is now demonstrating that they can also physically access someone's home. It's a legitimate threat to his safety, and Dave has no reliable way of knowing which threat is just a threat and which one they can actually carry out.

31:02He doesn't know where Carey is, how she's getting this information, or what she's capable of doing next. And that can create chronic hyper-vigilance because his threat detection system can't determine when he's actually safe. Adding onto that, he now thinks that Liz is being targeted because of him. That adds on to the perceived threat because if he thinks that anyone he dates will be targeted because of him, that creates a psychological burden on top of it. He now has a sense of responsibility for her too. Dave had previously ghosted Liz, but this shared threat brings them right back together. How can a mutual crisis or a common enemy fast-track intimacy and kind of cloud a person's judgment? It can definitely fast-track intimacy because it creates, like you said, a common threat that two people are facing together. They're frightened together, reassuring each other, and relying on each other for safety. That can really connect to people. And in this case, in particular, they're connected against now a common enemy which is Carey.

32:02It's like an us against them mentality. They believe that they're being targeted by the same person. And like we talked about, because he believes Liz is being targeted because of him, that may be adding to this too, like strengthening that connection. He may feel particularly responsible for protecting her, and that alone gives him a reason to communicate with her more. Spend more time together, check in with each other, and for her to become increasingly more reliant on him. And this is how a crisis can actually impact judgment, because the reasons that Dave wanted to distance himself from Liz, they're not gone. They still exist. They're just not as important right now, and that's how it can cloud his judgment. It's comfort. It's a mess against the enemy mentality, and it's narrowed attention that's occurring right now. Dave seemed to feel obligated to Liz, but he'd soon realize there was nothing he could do to stop the danger headed their way.

33:06By the end of November 2012, Dave Crouppa had received an average of 60 messages a day. They were coming from Carrie Farver's phone and email accounts with her name, and they were becoming increasingly bone-chilling. Not only that, but the threats had escalated in the real world when Liz Gullier's garage was vandalized and her home apparently broken into. Liz and Dave believed Carrie was behind it, and their shared fear brought them back together. Dave and Liz started sleeping together again, and once they did, it started to feel like Carrie was watching Dave's every move more closely than he'd ever imagined. After work one day, he was watching TV on the couch when he got a message from Carrie. It said, I see you in the chair with your feet propped up, you're wearing your blue t-shirt. The description was dead on. Horrified, Dave jumped up and quickly shut the blinds, but this was just the beginning. Soon, Dave would be constantly looking over his shoulder.

34:07At work, Carrie would text him whenever a female customer came into the shop. She didn't care if they were just there as customers. She told him she was going to go after them just for talking to him. Dave felt like he couldn't even be in the same room with a woman without putting her in danger. Things got so bad that Dave and his former partner and mother of his children, Amy, decided that it was no longer safe for him to have the kids stay overnight at his place. Instead, he would take them to the park for dinner at their favorite diner. But even that wasn't enough for Dave to feel like they were safe. Because like clockwork, Carrie would text him asking about their meal or describing what his kids were wearing. Once Carrie started threatening Dave's children, Dave reported it to Detective Chris LaGro of the Omaha Police Department. LaGro knew this was a clear-cut stalking case. He decided to stake out the area at Dave's work and around his house to find where Carrie was hiding. But he found no trace of her. He even went door-to-door showing people a photo of Carrie, but no one had seen her.

35:13Carrie was still considered missing and weeks passed without any news on her whereabouts. Part of the issue was that Carrie's mother Nancy had reported her missing to the sheriff's office in Potawatomi County, Iowa. But Dave was working with the Omaha Police and the two departments weren't in communication, which made it extremely difficult for law enforcement to help Dave, so the messages kept coming. Then on January 6, 2013, Dave received the most terrifying email yet. It said, you will do exactly as I say, and then I will let her go. Attached was a photo of a woman in the trunk of a car. Her mouth was covered in tape and her hands were tied behind her back. The woman's face was obscured, but the email claimed it was Liz, and the sender demanded that Dave call Liz and break up with her over-voice mail. Otherwise, she'd be left in the trunk to die. Dave immediately texted Liz and asked if she was okay.

36:16She was fine, that wasn't her in the trunk. But Dave still felt uneasy because the woman in the photo looked just like her. Now we've moved on from threatening messages into what he believes to be a genuine kidnapping. And all of this after a prolonged period of unpredictable stress and harassment. That's going to not only activate his nervous system, but continue activating his threat response. When that happens, the sympathetic nervous system activates and stress hormones prepare the body to survive. The nervous toward the immediate danger, heart rate increases, and again, the threat detection is activated. All of this is adaptive, and it's protective when you need it. The problem is that Dave's been living in this state for some time and hasn't been allowed to come down from it. So for weeks, he's been dealing with an unpredictable threat, and it's just continuing to escalate and vary alarming and frightening ways. And the more he's in that sustained state, the more it can interfere with sleep, concentration,

37:19working memory, attention, and decision making. People can become like we talked about hyper-vigilant and increasingly focused on immediate threat cues. So now he's being told that what happens to Liz is dependent on him and what he chooses to do. That's coercive by nature. He's already feeling responsible for this happening to Liz. This is an overwhelming position for him to be in. So that photograph that we are assuming is Liz, what does that suggest about the stalker's need for escalation here? I think it suggests that what they have been doing was not effective enough to get what they wanted. The texting, the emails, those are all words. Those require Dave to imagine what they mean, which I don't think was enough. It wasn't generating results. He was just blocking and ignoring. But when you send a picture and that showing him what they're capable of, that's much different. Like when they sent a picture inside the home before.

38:20And this time, they came with a very specific demand, too. This is using fear as a tool to control his behavior. Dave was now living in a constant state of fear and anxiety. And two days later, he came across something completely shocking. On January 8, 2013, he was in the parking lot of his department building when he spotted Kerry's Ford Explorer. He could tell no one was inside it, but it still sent a chill down his spine. It was heaped with snow while every other car in the lot had long since shed the storm. Whoever had left it, it hadn't been driven in days. Police told the explorer to the Omaha Police Department impound lot. But because it had been reported stolen in Iowa, the theft fell under the jurisdiction of the Potawatomi County Sheriff's Office. To the Nebraska police, Kerry was a stalker, actively threatening Dave. But to the Iowa police, she was a woman who'd gone missing after a mental health crisis, but would likely turn up.

39:21So the crime scene technician in Iowa, Katie Patee, thought she was just examining a recovered stolen vehicle. Patee was immediately struck by how clean the car was, especially considering it had supposedly been stolen. But it looked like it had just been washed, vacuumed, and thoroughly wiped down. Even so, she meticulously inspected every inch. The only thing she found was a pair of fingerprints on an empty mint container in the cup holder between the front seats. One of them, clear enough to run. But when she ran the print, there were no matches in the system. While the car felt like a small step forward, Dave knew he wouldn't feel at ease until Kerry was found. He couldn't handle being home alone, so he started spending more time out drinking. Dave helped him calm down and forget the constant state of anxiety he was in. His heavy drinking went on for months. One night that spring, he was walking home from the bar when he ran into Liz outside his apartment.

40:21They hadn't seen each other in a while, but this run-in was bizarre for other reasons. Dave barely noticed Liz at first because she was army crawling across the dark parking lot, wedged between a parked car and the building. She said she was drunk and had no idea how she ended up there. Dave laughed it off. It's unclear whether they spent that night together, but they continued to see each other regularly after that. In fact, Liz demanded they spend at least one day a week together. She claimed that after all they'd been through, she'd earned it. Dave prickled against the idea, but ultimately agreed. He felt it was the least he could do for dragging Liz into this mess. Full disclosure of Vanessa and I had a bit of a reaction when we learned that Liz was army crawling across the dark parking lot wedged between a parked car and the building. I want to check in with our listeners if you guys had a reaction to, at the fact that Dave still didn't put it together.

41:21Remember what we talked about with the stress response and chronic threat detection and how that narrows thinking? He's also been drinking. That also lowers judgment and reasoning. There are explanations reasonably for why he didn't put two and two together in that moment the way we are clearly putting two and two together in this moment. Hindsight bias is very real. Now, as we discussed earlier, when people go through something frightening together, that shared experience can create a powerful connection, but it also can create a sense of obligation. Remember, they've survived this with me. You supported me. I supported you. We understand something together that other people don't. That becomes problematic when someone starts treating that shared, suffering as currency, as if they're owed something in return, much like what Liz is doing here. That can make setting boundaries much more difficult because saying no can feel selfish or disloyal or ungrateful to the person that you form this unity with or that you survive something with, or in this case with whom you feel responsible for in terms of their safety.

42:28So now, Dave, for example, would be trying to challenge his feelings of immense guilt with his desire for distance from her, which could also be playing a role into why he completely overlooked her army crawling through the parking lot right now. That said, this is going to be difficult for Dave already, specifically giving his pattern of behavior so far because he seems to struggle enforcing boundaries, especially with Liz. But that's just not healthy intimacy. Healthy intimacy doesn't create an entitlement to another person. Going through something terrible together can explain why people feel connected, but that doesn't earn you a relationship with them. It seems like Liz's toxic behavior was the least of Dave's concerns because nearly six months had passed since Carrie went missing and the harassment started and he was on the brink. The constant dings on his phone made it impossible to focus at work, form healthy relationships, or even just be alone without fear. He never knew what to expect.

43:30And in May 2013, things took yet another dark turn. Carrie sent Dave a link. He clicked on it. It was an obituary that had been published online. He was shocked to see that it was for Liz. It said she'd died that day. Dave started to read it. It called her a whore and a man's dealer and thanked God that she was finally gone. The obituary was fake, but then Dave got a follow-up email from Carrie saying she'd do everything in her power to make it come true, even if that meant hiring someone to murder Liz and her children. As the threats grew more volatile, so did the violence. Mid-June Dave was visiting Amy and his kids. He was too busy to see emails coming in from Carrie. When he didn't respond, she threatened to shatter a window at his apartment to get his attention. And it turned out she meant every word. Dave's apartment was on the first floor, and when he got home that night, a brick had

44:31been thrown through his bedroom window. This is an escalation in the behavioral boundaries or shifting. They're taking greater risks, getting physically closer, causing more damage, and potentially increasing their own exposure to being identified or even caught. Property destruction is also a form of intimidation. You don't necessarily have to physically assault someone or threaten them to communicate that you're capable of reaching them or hurting them. And a home has particular psychological significance because it's supposed to be your safe space, and they've just violated that space. And that's to mention, it's also a crime. None of this means that escalation to interpersonal violence is inevitable. Stalking trajectories aren't perfectly linear, and people can escalate and de-escalate. But when behavior is becoming more intrusive, more physically aggressive, and more intense, like we talked about earlier with risk markers, that's something we take very seriously in

45:32violence risk assessment. And truthfully, I think it's something our legal systems have historically struggled with when it comes to stalking. And like I said previously about reform, it needs to happen because intervention often comes once someone is physically harmed. But stalking itself can involve a progression of threatening and increasingly intrusive behaviors long before someone is physically harmed. We shouldn't have to wait for someone to be physically assaulted before we recognize that an escalating pattern of behavior is a very legitimate safety concern. Which, it has a very acceptable way of speaking? And even if we don't have enough non-original information, we would still need to find sure that the comments would be found in the next few months. We should have received support from Chris Adams, told the social media fats. He knew he wasn't safe. He reported the incident to the Omaha police, and after eight months of constant torture, it was finally enough for them to take the case seriously. from a photo. By the end of the month, a misdemeanor warrant for Carrie Farver's arrest was active.

46:39However, the warrant did little to stop the harassment because Carrie was still nowhere to be found, but it seems like Dave made other attempts to gain back some control in his life. About a month later, in August, he and Liz hid another rough patch. She'd been accusing him of sleeping with Amy and demanding he spend more time with her. Dave put his foot down and ended things. They didn't speak at all for a couple of weeks, but then on August 17th, Dave was at work when he received a frantic call from Liz. She was so hysterical he could barely understand her. At first, all he could make out was the word fire. Then he heard her clearly. Carrie had burned down Liz's house. He needed to come immediately. When he arrived, the scene was chaotic. Liz stood in the middle of the street sobbing. There were fire trucks everywhere. The fire was already out by the time he got there, but the inside of the house was charred and black with soot. The only thing Dave could do was hold Liz and tell her it would be alright. He couldn't believe this was actually

47:44happening. Carrie had tried to kill her. Then Liz told him that Carrie had sent her a message at 12.56 that morning saying that she hoped she and her kids would burn to death. Liz said she and her children hadn't been home when the fire started. She told investigators they'd left the house at 3 p.m. the day before and that she was in the middle of moving out, but all four of her pets, two dogs, a cat and a snake died of smoke inhalation. Although he'd ended things with Liz, Dave couldn't possibly abandon her in the ashes of her life. He felt like he was pulling her back into his mess, so he stayed by her side. They spent days waiting through the soot to help salvage whatever belongings they could. A catastrophic event like losing your home in a house fire can change someone's priorities in a matter of seconds. So whatever felt important yesterday can feel very insignificant in that moment. And that's especially true for Dave who has a complicated

48:45relationship with Liz. You can simultaneously believe that someone isn't healthy for you, that you need distance from them and still care about what happens to them. A crisis can temporarily resolve that conflict because someone is suffering and you're instinked, obviously, if you know, you're a good person, is to help them. That's how boundaries can loosen very quickly without someone necessarily changing their mind about why those boundaries existed in the first place. And like we talked about earlier, this is another instance in which he's likely going to be communicating more with Liz now, spending more time together or even more dependent on one another for support. How coincidental is that? Well, the police also believed Kerry was responsible for the fire. However, the fire investigator on the scene noticed some things that didn't add up. The burn patterns inside Liz's house show that the blaze had been lit deliberately from six separate points of origin, nearly all of them in the basement inside the house. First responders

49:49had already flagged two things that didn't belong. A gas can on the living room floor and a bottle of charcoal lighter fluid on the kitchen counter. The investigator took samples from both. From there, he tried to figure out how the arsonist had gotten inside. Liz had answers ready. The locks had been changed months earlier after she reported the stalking and of the three sets of keys she'd been given, one had gone missing. She also volunteered that she'd stop by the house the day before and that the garage door had been unlocked. The chief wrote all of it down. It would be a long time before anyone understood how much she'd just handed him. This ominous revelation was just the start of all the horrifying truths that were about to come to light.

50:51Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for the conclusion of our deep dive on Dave Krupa, Liz Gullier and Carrie Farver. Serial killers and murderous minds as a crime house original powered by PAVE studios. Here at Crime House we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram at Crime House. Don't forget to rate, review and follow serial killers and murderous minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly does make a difference. And to enhance your listening experience, join Crime House Plus and get both parts of every story dropped on the same Monday completely ad-free. No waiting three days for part two plus Crime House bonus episodes every month. To join go to CrimeHousePlus.com or if you listed on Apple podcasts, tap Try Free at the top of the serial killers and murderous minds page. Serial killers and murderous minds is hosted by me Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels and is a crime house original

51:55powered by PAVE studios. This episode was brought to life by the serial killers and murderous minds team Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benadon, Laurie Maranelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Camp, Alyssa Fox, Mara Delerosa, Claire Swartzlander, Sarah Bachelor, Sarah Tartiff and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening. Hi listeners, it's Vanessa. Are you the type to fall down an internet rabbit hole and not come up for hours? You'll love crimes of Reddit, a new Crime House original with Sabrina Deanna Roge and Alexis Linklenter. Every week, one host brings real true crime stories from Reddit, while the other reacts completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, then they swab. It's the feeling of sending your group chat a Reddit 2am that starts with you have to see this, except Sabrina and Alexis are in the chat with you. Follow Crime's of Reddit on Apple podcasts

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