LIVE: Joshua Charles & Anthony Take YOUR Toughest Questions

0:00This is the call in show with Joshua Charles. Go ahead, caller. I'm listening. Does your butt hurt because there's a big crack in it? I cannot believe I let Anthony talk me into this. We had no idea what was coming you literally said. I have no idea what's on the video. That was quite good. That was quite good. We love bringing your reputation back down to my level a little bit. Oh my goodness. Oh, man, Joshua Charles, man, it seems like people are very excited about this one.

1:04It's going to be so disappointed when I don't give the link out. We just spend the whole time talking. Oh, no, we definitely have to have people come in. I think I would talk and you would read the chat like last time. That worked out so well. You still haven't got, no, I got no, Mr. man's man is like a total woman on this. My goodness. Somebody actually, they were joking around in here before they think, you know, I repented. I changed my behavior. It hasn't happened again, but here you are still months later talking about it. I'd use different words if we were in private, but yeah, no, somebody said, now Joshua actually would be able to hear us and not get distracted by the comment section. They was starting in early with this one. Anyway, yeah, so Josh and I, I mean, how often do we talk on the phone? We talk on the phone almost daily at this point, right? Unfortunately, yeah, quite daily, but it's pretty often, yeah, it's pretty frequent.

2:08It's like, I don't know, Josh and I kind of like watch world events and we're both just like, well, my goodness, what I don't own right now. And it's just, it's one of those things, especially because Rob, he loves to shake his head and face palm anytime. I talk about my theories, but I know you and I discuss a lot of these things pretty often. And I figured this would be a good show for people to probably pop on and ask us questions and stuff, but I did happen to see a couple of things today on X, I was very happy about it. I saw Brian Holdsworth and you both came and defended Mike Pantile, I guess some of like the more ridiculous accusations that we made, being made against them. And it's like, because Mike has done things with Gordon, it tends to, people tend to do the guilt by association thing. And it's like, if you actually pay attention to Mike's content, Mike does not do the same

3:10thing Gordon does, it's very different. Most of his YouTube content is like focused on spirituality and digging into the saints and stuff like that. So I was really happy to see both of you guys jumping and defend them. Yeah, Mike's a friend and I mean, as you well know, I've talked with you privately and sometimes publicly that I don't always like what you say, but for my friend, you're my brother. And that's just, you know, it's kind of interesting. It made me think about the nature of like male podcasts versus female podcasts. And female podcasts seem to be this never-ending carnival of self-affirmation and male. No, seriously, they are. It's like, you are, oh, I know, you are. That's not fat. That's heaven fluff or whatever they say and, you know, whatever may be and, and, you know, it's like, no, we have honest conversations with one another. I don't agree with everything you say.

4:10I think you need to be careful, but I agree with a lot of it. But you are one of the most loyal friends I have. And so Mike, you know, is a good guy. Do I agree with absolutely everything he says, absolutely, every way he said, no, of course not. But he is, but he is focusing on the saints. He's a convert to the Catholic faith. He's brought his wife who is not even Christian beforehand into it. His whole kid, all of his kids. He is helping many, many men fight the very vices that these women will sometimes point out or so, you know, pervasive. And they are pornography and gooning as the, as the young and say, you know, all that kind of stuff. Mike is, is addressing all that head on. So, you know, the fact that he presents views on feminism that, you know, would have been screwedable to 1900 years of our ancestors. No, no, no, that, that's too far. We can only hear and accept what, what we've accepted in the last hundred years when civilization has been, it's, it's most apostate and antichristic stage in millennia. So it's just, it's silly.

5:11It's childish and, and yeah, it's unfortunate. Yeah. I, because you know what it is to see a guy like you and a guy like holes, but like, it's expected of me to get into the riff raff and, I mean, I made the video about Kyle yesterday. And so like, people, people kind of expect that from me, but when it comes from a guy like you and Holdsworth, you guys are both very reserved on social media. You don't, you're not bombastic like I am. So it was good. I think it was good that, especially Melody Lyons, who just seems to, seems like her whole life is consumed by just the seeding at random men, whatever. So it's like, to see it coming from you and Brian was, was very refreshing because it was taken seriously as opposed to someone like me coming at it and they just kind of brushed it off as, as if I'm just one of those guys in that sphere. Well, you know, she issued an apology for at least some of the things she said, which is, is good.

6:15You know, for me, it's always, I hate the personnel or personal conflict and, you know, eternal christenum. It's all about getting people into these sources. Oh, I just realized I hadn't put some of my books back. That's why they're all tilting over there. But, and, and those sources are very, very clear on many aspects of male, female relations, particularly, you know, especially husband, wife, that a lot of people today are just not on board with. And my responsibility is not to get them on board with it. That's their responsibility with God's grace. My responsibility is to simply share the treasures of the great tradition as well as I can. And, and when people make some of these outrageous assertions, you know, I'm happy to simply let that tradition speak for itself. Yeah. You, so really like our first conversations that we even started getting into from, from

7:17like when I initially met you, I was actually introduced to you by Steve Cunningham. Steve Cunningham. I'll give him a shout out. Really? Steve Cunningham introduced us. So Steve forgot me to two new books, um, uh, litany of humility. And this is probably one of his crazy, uh, break the nation apart books. But if you guys are someone climbed, go to, uh, census, fidelity, impress and pick up Steve's , Steve's most recent books. Um, Steve Cunningham introduced us. Um, he had you want to discuss the first book that when you, when you converted, you had published, um, a, a series of essays in, uh, I forgot what the name of the book was, but I read it. And you just basically republished something by, I think it was the original argument in the pedals papers. No, no, no, no, when you first converted, it was about, about free masonry infiltrating the church, the, um, oh, yeah, no, long, yeah, um, they were a series of lectures at first, but yeah, months near George Dylan, um, the war of the anti-Christ with the church

8:18and Christian civilization. Yeah. So you came, you came into the church in 2020, right? 2019. And then your first year as a Catholic, all of a sudden they started shutting down my first Easter as a Catholic. Yeah. Yeah. So like right from then, you started having, like you started seeing things and I think it had different lens than the average convert does, right? Yeah. Well, why don't we give people a sense of what we're hoping to cover? I mean, you know, I entered this stream, prayerfully, I knew you did the same. So wherever it goes, it goes, especially with the questions, but, um, we wanted to give kind of a big picture of end time theology. Now, end time eschatology is it's often called, you know, it's very, it's the most speculative of all the, the allergies, I guess you could say, um, but I do think it, it is one of those things that as time goes on, aspects of it are clarified, um, prophecy is, is much clearer or the closer you get to its fulfillment or afterward. And so I wanted to offer a framework for people.

9:21I mean, we've talked about a lot, but I think just kind of reading through it in some, some parts of scripture we can cover pretty fast would help, um, because it, I think one thing I always try to do is take, um, complicated multi variable things and reduce it to an easily understandable essence. And then you fill in the details, right? And so I actually think we can, are you okay if we do that really quick? Take us on a journey, man, I want people to get an idea that, because they hear me kind of rant on my, my theories quite a bit on this show, but I want them to hear, uh, a little bit more basis in the fathers and scripture from you. So they, they kind of see, I'm not just, you know, making things up. Yeah. Well, we'll make it pretty quick, um, just because I know I think the most fun part, you know, will be the, the back and forth with questions and whatnot. Um, and hopefully the most edifying, but I, I basically contend that, um, that apocalypse

10:2220 is a grand outline of history since the incarnation of our Lord. And so the, the grand outline is this, it describes and we'll go over really quick, describes a great dragon being bound and thrown into a pit. And it describes a period of thrones being set up for those to whom judgment has been committed. That's verse four. And that's the apostles and their successors. Um, and then at verse seven, it says, um, that the dragon is unleashed for a brief period. And it doesn't say the brief period in, um, verse seven, it says it in verse three. So, but you put the two together, he's unleashed for a brief period and he brings his hordes, you know, antichrist, et cetera, against the church. And then our Lord returns the antichrist has destroyed end of history, you know, day of judgment, et cetera. So I think, um, this is very, very important because I think the, the other, there are several places in scripture that are much more detailed about the end times, particularly Daniel, obviously

11:24our Lord's all of a discourse for the end of, um, the three synoptic gospels, uh, and then St. Paul in 2nd Thessalonians 2. So this binding of the dragon and his brief unleashing, I think are very, very helpful tools, their clues, um, that we need to be looking for something where there is some sort of restraint that's imposed. And there's a, then there's a restraint that is released. So it's very, very simple, um, and sure enough, that's what we find, um, in many, many parts of scripture. So why don't we just go to Apocalypse 20 really quick? I'm reading, I haven't gotten the personal size yet. So I've got my full, you know, hefty, and then of course, I'm only in Apocalypse. I've only got this little bit to work with on this side here, um, but here's Apocalypse 20. So let's do the first period. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit in a great chain. And he sees the dragon that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan and bound him for a thousand years and threw him into the pit and shut it and sealed it over him that

12:25he should deceive the nations no more to the thousand years were ended after that. He must be left out for a little while. So there's that, there's that little while I was mentioning being in verse three. Okay. So there's actually not a whole lot of patristic commentary on Apocalypse, um, but of the commentaries we have many see this angel angel just means messenger. Many see this angel is actually being Christ and he binds, uh, Satan now despite the lack of ubiquitous, uh, patristic commentary on the Apocalypse, you do find this language of Christ binding Satan and the demons replete throughout the fathers. They connected to something else in the gospels as well. I think it's connected with this. I'll get to that in a second. Uh, well, the hint, binding the strong man to plunder as goods. We'll get back to that in a second. All right. Let's get to verse four. So the, the dragon is bound. When I saw thrones and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed and as Catholics, we know that those are the apostles and their successors.

13:29Also I saw the so souls, excuse me, of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection. I believe that's death in the state of grace, essentially. And then when the saints die in the state of grace, they are reigning with Christ from heaven for a thousand years. Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection, right? If you do not share in that first resurrection, meaning death in the state of grace, um, it's not going to go good for any of us. Baptism. Yeah. Well, no, not just baptism. It's the first resurrection. So a death is something that has to occur. So it's dying in a state of grace. Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection over such the second death that'd be throwing thrown into hell for final condemnation has no power.

14:30But they should be priests of God and of Christ and they shall reign with him a thousand years. Okay. Then we get to verse seven. And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations, which are at the four corners of the earth. That is, Gog and Magog to gather them for battle. Their numbers like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints in the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet were. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. So then the rest, then it goes into the day of judgment would not so. So we see this broad pattern of Satan being bound, the period of the thrones and the Catholic consensus. It wasn't actually like this in the first few centuries. There were a number of fathers who did believe that this millennium was, frankly, more like a Protestant idea that is much more common among some Protestants, not all Protestants.

15:32And that the Christ would come and reign in person for a literal thousand years, et cetera. But the subtle tradition of the church on this point is oblinialism, which is that this thousand years is the period of the church. And so these thrones that are being set up, I don't have the chapters right in front of me. I've written some articles about it on eternal Christian. But Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that they will, you know, I can actually find it really quick. What was interesting is like, while you're looking for it, I'll talk the, the whole idea of like what Protestants talk about like the end times and the reign of Christ, they think it's at the end of time. No, it is this period where the church cover, like the church spreads the gospel and covers the earth essentially. And you see the altars of the Catholic faith just being erected all over. And as that's happening, you're seeing the pagan gods being bound in the depths like you're talking about. Yeah.

16:32And I want to get to that in a second. No, I completely agree. So here's, this is from Matthew 1928. Jesus said to them, the apostles, truly, I say, say to you, in the new world, when the son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. So that's one place where the thrones are mentioned. Then Luke 22, 28 through 30, this is Jesus talking, you are those who have continued with me in my trials. As my father appointed a kingdom for me. So do I appoint you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel? So this is the only other place where thrones are mentioned in the New Testament. So I think it's very significant. Now, Jesus makes a very key phrase. He offers a very key phrase in the first one I read, Matthew 1928, truly, I say to you, in the new world, now what's this new world he's talking about? He says, when the son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, we know what that's

17:36referring to. You can look at the article, this is becoming Catholic number 39. So this is in the apostolic succession section. When he begins to sit on his throne, took place at the ascension. So Jesus is describing the reality that he is going to bestow upon the apostles at his ascension. Because at his ascension is when he as the final son of David takes his seat as the final Davidic king. And you can find, we provide all the verses in that article to show that this is the case. So this new world that he talks about begins at the ascension. And this is the world in which the apostles are set up on thrones. As Catholics, this should be obvious to us what this is, cathedrals, cathedra, throne, the seat of the bishop who are the successors of the apostles, preeminently, successors of St. Peter, et cetera. And the period of, this is why the church kind of set it on a millennial interpretation

18:37of verses four through six and apocalypse 20. So then the question is, well, what, this is, there's so much to get into. And I know, this is primarily, you know, I want, I really do want to get the question. I think that'll be fun. And if I know you to too, but, but that's why I think apocalypse 20 is so incredibly helpful. Because then you think, okay, well, what happened when Satan was bound? And we have a whole lot of testimony from the church fathers about what happened. Not only the conversion, well, first of all, well, okay, I'll come back. Well, okay, let's start first. What happened with the people who were initially predestined by God or, or called by God? That'd be a better word, more precise word, to receive their Messiah, the Jews. They were given 40 years roughly to repent. They did not. The temple was destroyed precisely as Jesus predicted. And Jesus is very clear. He gives a parable about this vineyard that God sets up. He gives to these tenants. He calls them tenants. And he keeps sending people to check in and they keep killing him.

19:41And he sends his son and they kill the son. And then he comes and punishes them and kicks them out and gives it to new tenants who will produce fruit. And there are other parables where Christ is crystal crystal clear that that is now going to the Gentiles. But the root of that is all Jewish. The apostles were the remnant of the Jews. Our lady was part of the remnant of the Jews, just like in the Old Testament, there's a faithful remnant. Even when most of Israel is falling to all worship or molloquership or astereem worship or whatever it is, there's this faithful remnant like when Elijah was fasting and he thinks he's all alone. And God says, I think, I think he says 4,000 or 5,000 something like that, I have 4,000 left in Israel. So there's always this faithful remnant. Well, that was the apostles. That was our lady. That was the Stephen, the first Deacon and the first martyr. And so that became the portion of the Jewish people who inherited the promises. Oh, I've got to turn off the notification, or I thought it was off.

20:43But then the Gentiles are joined to that, right? The Gentiles are joined to that. So we know that that was one of the first things that happened when Satan was bound and the new covenant was initiated was the Jews were expelled from the Holy Land. A lot. A lot. In Luke 70. Sorry. In Luke 21, Jesus says, and Jerusalem will be trodden underfoot by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. So you know, when they get expelled, Jerusalem then basically just becomes taken over by Gentiles, which it's run by, it's taken over by Christians and Muslims for different periods of time, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then they'll be allowed to return. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. A whole lot to get into on that. But I want to make a few more connections here. We also know, and this is where you'll find ubiquitous language in the church fathers about Satan being bound, demons being bound. We just did an episode on this, maybe a month or so ago, maybe a little bit more. No, no, it's a little more. It was like almost two months ago.

21:44I can't believe we're already in March of 80, 2026. It's crazy. Yeah. But on St. Athanasius, we covered the incarnation of the word, which is one of his most famous works. It's at a very high level, and you can find many, you know, individual stories among throughout the rangs of the fathers. But at a very high level, he talks about how paganism was being destroyed, how the literal power of demons was being disarmed, defanged, because they were bound by Christ. He talks about magic, no longer working, incantations, no longer working. He talks about the oracles going silent. One pretty amazing story with this, John Christus, St. John Christusum talks about it in a, he gives a homily unblessed babblest. I'll give the very, very quick story. So and this also is related to Julian, the apostate, who was the last pagan emperor. He was Catholic, maybe Aryan. It's not, it's a little unclear, but he apostasized completely, you know, became pagan, tried to revive paganism. He literally, in some of the histories, it literally describes Julian, you know, bringing back pagan priests who had become dishelved and impoverished because paganism was done.

22:49It was like, one last call is try to get paganism back up and running. He also told those priests that they should start feeding the poor because that was such an attractive thing the Christians were doing. So he was telling these pagan priests to take care of the poor and like be like almost like a twisting of Christianity a little bit, but under the false pagan gods and because it was such an attractive thing that drew people to Christianity was our love for the poor and the downtrodden. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, I don't remember exactly where that was said, but yeah, that sounds, that sounds right. So in this homily unblessed babelist, who was babelist? Babelist was a bishop in the late 200s, who was martyred in the diacletian persecution, I believe. So his relics were buried at a place called Daphna, D-A-P-H-N-E. I think it's like a northern Syria, southern Turkey. So I forget which country it would exactly be in today, but very right around that border.

23:53And so there was an oracle there. Now the oracle, most people know about is Delphi or Delphi in Greece. And so what would happen? You'd have an, I'm forgetting the oracle's name. There was a term for it. I'm totally blanking on it. But there was a female oracle and leaders would go to the oracle to hear from Apollo. They would ask her questions and ask of Apollo and choir of Apollo. It was kind of a pagan version of the Urum and Thumum that God established for the Israelites. Where the high priest would literally go into the Holy of Holies, ask a question. And you know, the stones on his ephod, I think is how you pronounce it, would light up in a particular way. This is all part of the Bible. So when some Protestants tried to argue that there was no like proto and fallible magisterium in the old covenant, they are simply correct. You know what else the high priest said to do? We had to wear bells and there was a rope tied to him because if the high priest died while in the sanctuary, they and the bells stopped ringing, they would have to pull him out by the rope because only the high priest could go in there.

24:55Which is interesting because at a mass, that's why we ring the bells at mass when the consecration occurs. Yeah, that's a great, that's a great connection point. Yeah. So anyway, St. John Christum is talking about his martyrdom and describes the story of Julian the Apostate going to this oracle in Daphna, assuming I'm pronouncing correct, I'm not particularly good at these things. And wants to inquire of the demon. Well, the demon tells him you have to remove these dead bodies that are near me and he doesn't say that the relics of the Babylonists are there. But essentially what John Christum says is the reason why the demon needed those relics moved is because it couldn't do anything. They couldn't speak. It could not answer Julian the Apostate's request. So long as the relics of a martyr were there, sort of like guarding the site and interceding. This is where we get the, and speaking to you about this on our show is what made me understand patron saints

25:58because what happens is the relics of the saint are brought in and the spirit of that saint then governs the area, right? So like the principalities that govern these areas are taken out by the relics of the saint. So now you have a patron saint who's spirit, which when you're, when you're, when you have a patron saint, what you're seeing is an element of Christ in that patron saint. It was through conversations with you that that actually finally clicked in my head and I started to understand what like I never understood what a church stopped teaching us this though, but that's where the idea of patron saint's come from. Well, and who does Saint John give pride of place to in Apocalypse 20 versus 4 through 6? It's those who are martyrs. And notice that during that not to get to into the weeds, but notice in those thousand years, it says that they are those who resist the beast. So the beast is not just this one guy, the Antichrist at the end, the beast, where John's getting this is from Daniel, where various pagan polities and kingdoms are described as beasts.

27:00And then in Apocalypse, we see a beast that pertakes of all the characteristics of the four beasts described in Daniel. So it's somehow this fifth beast. So anyway, the point is is that Satan is limited during those thousand years. Obviously, there have still been exorcisms and whatnot during those thousand years, but I don't think we understand other than the Jews, other than the Israelites, and they themselves were frequently falling into idolatry and paganism, other than them, the world was completely dominated by the worship of demons. And 2000 years post Christ, we don't really have a framework for fully understanding that. But the change inaugurated by the incarnation of the logos was profound. And this was the whole point of St. Athanasius's on the incarnation of the word. He's giving one of the things he would say to Jews and to pagans. He'd say to the pagans, if your gods are all that, why is this guy who you claim is dead?

28:02Why is he defeating them everywhere? Why is he being worshipped everywhere and your gods are falling along the wayside? And he would say to the Jews, well, if this wasn't the Messiah, then why are all these pagan nations worshipping the God of Israel? Would God, would the God of Israel allow himself to be worshipped through the machinations of a total liar and fraud? No, he wouldn't. And then, of course, you would point to other things. I say that to Protestants a lot. Like, when Protestants try to say it, I'm like, do you understand how absurd your position is? Your position is that Catholicism is a pagan cult. And it's like, what you're saying is that God allowed a pagan cult to like Christ promised the kingdom and instead the devil put his religion in instead. So you're saying Christ's mission failed and it took 1500 years before Martin Luther freed the real gospel. Like, it's such an absurd, ridiculous proposition. And it's one of the reasons I became Catholic. Of course, we're a bit oversimplifying. There are some Protestants who have a slightly more nuanced perspective.

29:04So just so that in case they're listening, we know that there are those there. But yeah, functionally, if you look at the vast majority of Protestants and their errors today, errors, meaning H-E-I-R-S, those who have proceeded from them, they believe things that are just completely absent from the ancient church. And this was a huge reason of why I became Catholic. Yeah, no, Martin of Tours is great. This is a huge reason I became Catholic though. Relics and veneration of the Saints was huge. I mean, you find the Christians gathering the bones of Saint Polycarp in the earliest stories of saying, Nations of Antioch, my patron saint. And you find, as incidentally, that those who hated this the most were pagans. Julian the Apostate wrote, I think it was called against the Galileans. And I haven't read it the whole thing yet. But he has a section in there where he calls out Christians for having basically monuments to dead bones everywhere. He hates it. He hates it because in the pagan world, the realm of the dead and the realm of the living

30:05were completely separated. So most people don't know this. The term cemetery actually is a Christian word. It's a Catholic word. It means a place of sleep, right? From Paul's description of those who are dead. Did the pagans bury their dead or they burn their dead? I think it was probably both. I'm not an expert on that. But the pagans didn't call it cemeteries. They called it necropolises or necropolis, a city of the dead. And so they would keep it totally separate. You can actually see this. I visited the Scavi in Rome twice, actually. It's very rare to get to visit it once. It was just luck. It wasn't like connections or anything. It was just luck that we got to visit twice on two different trips. But the Scavi is beneath the Vatican. And it's this ancient burial ground. And this is where Peter's bones were initially put. After he was murdered in Neurostatium above, where he saw that obelisk that is in St. Peter's square to the state, of course, didn't have a cross on top of it at the time. Now it does. And so, but they found the memorial that the ancient Christians

31:07built to him that I had seen countless descriptions of it by various church fathers. And if you took a laser from them high altar in St. Peter's Basilica and put it straight down, you would have been within inches of where this memorial to St. Peter was, where his bones were very likely. We can't be absolutely certain, but very, very likely are the bones of St. Peter, and it's within inches of beneath the very center of the high altar to this day, two thousand years later. So I will build. Except for some of the bones that we gave to the Orthodox. Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, well, enough. But so anyway, so let's ponder this restraint. So this relates to the catacombs, which I've talked about a lot. This is from 2nd Thessalonians 2. Too big of a topic to dive into it at length without obstructing the question period. But St. Paul refers to this mysterious restrainer. And this restrainer is what holds back the coming of Antichrist.

32:11But when this restrainer gives way, Antichrist appears. And interestingly enough, and I'm still studying this, I'm, I'm, I'm working. I wrote it like a, I'll get back to COVID here in a bit, because I think it's very much related to a lot of contemporary events, unfortunately. But it says that when Antichrist comes, this restrainer will have been removed, and that Antichrist will come by all the power of Satan with lying signs and wonders. So as an apocalypse 20, we see the demonic is restrained, and the setting up of the apostolic thrones, and then this restraint gives way in verse 7. And Satan, this, something demonic, Satan, the dragon comes back. Likewise, St. Paul is showing, yeah. Do you link that to Apocalypse 8, where it talks about the star falling from heaven and opening the key to the abyss? So this is all very interesting. I'm still pondering it. But yes, so, so let me, let me get to that in a second. So I have proposed a hermeneutic.

33:13I've proposed it several years ago, I think two years ago, maybe three years ago, called Restrain Release Return. Restrain, obviously, referring to the restraining of the dragon, release the release of the dragon, and then return being the return of our Lord. And I think when you analyze various parts of scripture and light of this hermeneutic, a lot of things open up. So one of the things, I'm still not done analyzing this, so I don't want to be too definitive right now. But one of the ways I think, and I think it's probably the best way to read the Apocalypse, is reading the different judgments as the same thing, but in a different light. So the seal judgments, the bold judgments, the trumpet judgments, etc. So what I do is I actually line up the first in each series. Oh, line up the first in each series, the second in each series, the third in each series, the fourth in each series, etc. And there are, and if I'm recalling correctly, it's been a while since I've done this deep dive on these parts of the Apocalypse. I'm still studying a few other things. But from what I did it, I recall that there were,

34:15there seemed to be very clear parts of each of these series where some sort of restraint is moved out of the way. And yes, the falling of the star Apocalypse 9, I think it is, where the Abyss has opened up. I could, it's been a while since I've found it. Yeah, it's either eight or nine, but Cornelius Alapide said that a star falling from heaven is representative of a bishop. And he says that in Christ's first coming, that was Caiathus, essentially, who opened the key to the bottomless pit when all the demons come out. And then that goes to your restraint and release, too. So then, so then there's a restraining period. But then in the end, there's going to be a bishop from a very high place who opens the key to the bottomless pit, which I think maps up with the Catechon. If you, I mean, if you see the, because I can't, I mean, I don't want to make you go with this theory. But I see like Paul the Six laying down the papal tiara as like, I don't see the Catechon as one significant event. I see it as kind of like a series of events

35:16through the chair of Peter. Yeah, and this is where I think there's a lot of flexibility. What's so beautiful about the Catholic approach of scripture is it's not an either or. You know, if we're challenged, particularly in Protestant, while is the rock Christ, Peter, or Peter's confession, it's like, yes. It's both. You know, I wrote an article recently where Saint Jerome interpreted John six, you know, the bread of life as both divine doctrine and the Eucharist. To the point where he's saying the faithful are horrified if even a small crumb falls to the ground. Clearly, he's affirming Catholic belief about the Eucharist. If you're believing that Christ is present in every crumb. Origins are something very similar, although he's not a church father, although an authoritative witness on various things. And so when it comes to the apocalypse, I, fundamentally, I think the Catechon is Christendom. And it's, which is, what is Christendom? The traditional, I guess, definition of it would be,

36:18Christendom is, you know, like kingdom, kingdom is a, is a polity over which a king reigns. So Christendom is a polity over which Christ reigns. Now, so people understand, again, not to get too into the, I just find all this stuff interesting. So if I'm getting too far a field, you let me know. There is a polity even in Eden. So got, you know, they're, they're being a, there's a polity in heaven, right? Meaning there's a hierarchy. Yeah. I wish the realm is governed, right? So there's always going to be a polity. Even when after the day of judgment, everybody's in heaven and hell, even in the state of perfection, there's going to be a polity. There's going to be a hierarchy by which government is still exercise. So, so polity is not simply a, this worldly thing, dirty, whatever, although we certainly have to be very careful of the dangers and the temptations involved with it, you know, pre-eternity. Let me just, let me just answer this just so, because there is no locals tonight. We're going to do two to two and a half hours on YouTube. There's going to be a call in section.

37:19I, we wanted to kind of just cover some stuff. The thing is I could do a four hour show with Josh because I would love to get into like the church and the anti-chairs kind of in the same body, that conversation way. There's just so much I could cover, which Josh will do this in multiple parts, but we're going to do a call in segment. But let's get through some of this stuff as I think it's super interesting. So, so I think chrysanthem is the, is the polity where Christ reigns in both spiritual and temporal aspects. So the spiritual traditionally referring to the hierarchy of the priesthood, the temporal referring to temporal rulers, kings, emperors, presidents, etc. And so chrysanthem is simply what results. So imagine if you got St. Peter, he's baptizing a bunch of laymen who don't hold political power. They don't hold in Purim in the ancient Roman world. But then let's say Peter, I'm not saying this happened, but just, you know, as an analogy, he baptizes Caesar. Caesar doesn't cease to be

38:20Peter's spiritual subject, his spiritual son, simply because he is a temporal ruler. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, with all the ancient Christs, it was to serve Christ the king, right? All the ancient should serve Christ the king. Yeah, so the logic of chrysanthem works out from that basic reality, that when you are baptized, you become a subject of the apostolic hierarchy, period. And that is, whether you're, whether you're Caesar or not. Now, that doesn't mean that Caesar has thereby given up his right to temporal issues to the priesthood. No, the priesthood is there to teach infallibly, bind and loose on faith and morals to guide Caesar. So we don't need to get into all that. But I do think that was a key element of the Catechon, what holds back the coming of Antichrist. And indeed, many fathers did believe that the Catechon, there's not a, unanimous opinion on this.

39:21But there is a strong majority opinion that the Catechon was the Roman Empire, in some sense. And so, again, in Second Thessalonians 2, we see this restraint is imposed. But then Paul says that the final day won't come until the rebellion comes first. This is often known as the great apostasy. And then, and then the restrainer, he refers to the restrainer as a neuter it and as an individual he. So I think that has implications for the papacy. I think the power of the sacraments are involved in this. I think there's potentially eucharistic interpretations to this. So like I said, Catholic interpretation is polyvalent. But what happens when this restraint is imposed? The conversion of the Empire, pagan is now, there were periods of martyrdom. There were periods of martyrdom that eventually led to the conversion. But eventually that did happen. And so in the same way that when this restraint is imposed, it took a few centuries for it to kind of build up.

40:23And Christendom itself was not some utopia, right? It never was meant to be. Now, why is this restraint there? Well, the short version is it's because God has to gather in all the elect from the four corners of the world, which is a fascinating subject on its own. Now, this goes back to the gospel, and I mentioned this earlier. Many fathers use this language of the demons being bound. They even describe, if you do a sign of the cross, the demons freak out, they can't talk. I mean, this was really happening. And we still see it happening, and I'm sure most of the exorcists see it. I personally think we're probably past verse seven or we're in verse seven right now. But my point is that when Satan was bound, it took a few centuries for the age of martyrdom to sort of progress to the age of Christendom. So likewise, I think it's reasonable to think that the unbinding of Satan could likewise potentially take a few centuries to work out. I'm not positive about that. But here's where it's interesting, not to get. Man, we really could go four or five hours, especially.

41:24Yeah, I mean, with all the covers. But what I'm trying to get people to think about is do you reverse image of history? So if the grand outline of history does involve this binding of Satan, this thousand years, and then this losing of Satan for a brief time, just consider what happened when he was bound. And then when we want to ponder, well, what will look like when he's unbound, do a reverse image of it. So what happened when he was bound? Magic got very weak and ceased. The oracles went silent. St. Athanasius even has, I forgive his chapter, people can look at the podcast. St. Athanasius even has a fascinating part where he says that Christ by ascending into heaven cleared the atmosphere of demonic entities. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? I always describe it as like a typological inversion. So like the way you stalk Christendom spread, you'll see a typological inversion where we're seeing our churches are closing now, right?

42:24And you're seeing we're selling off our buildings and our altars are starting to disappear as you're starting to see these pagan gods reappear. And you do see these pagan gods reappear in their worship, especially like this whole idea of like deaphile, like it's trans-is sacred. Like you're seeing the priests of Artemis Ephesia coming back and things like that. You're actually seeing that. And the idea of the catechon, it's like, it's not the single event. It's, I mean, it probably could have, you could even trigger the starting point to the reformation. So if you're saying it's gonna take a couple of hundred years, like you could put the starting point to the reformation. But I think it really picks up at the council where you see even the church's language about like the spreading of the gospel is different now. And when you're talking about religious freedom now, like the church is no longer trying to lock in Christendom, right? So it's where we had this unified Christendom before.

43:26And even though they are still these kings of the earth are president or whoever they are, our baptists are still subject to the pope. The pope is almost giving leeway because it seems like the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. And it's only like the church is kind of speaking to us subtly, even if they don't know that that's what they're doing, it's just kind of how the Holy Spirit moves. Well, let me mention the thing in the gospel's first where this whole binding language from most of the fathers comes from. Because like I said, the apocalypse isn't touched very often by the fathers. In fact, I mean, you have it with Saint bead. He's probably the most prominent father who does a complete commentary in the apocalypse. Another one is written by a guy who is probably a donatist named Ticonius, who I remember even I talked to him. This is what I wanted to get into when you were a little boy. I discovered this guy, and it's been a while since I've reviewed Ticonius. Benedict, Benedict loved Ticonius. Well, and I actually found an essay, Benedict had written as Father Rothsinger on before, I think it was before Vatican II's in the 50's, that had not been translated.

44:27And I hired a Benedict and obelite to translate it. Right before the lockdown. So Ticonius is interesting because he really gets into this church antitour saying that's probably too much to get into right now. But the reason I mention him is because Ticonius is mentioned very favorably by bead, by Saint bead, the venerable, who's arguably one of the greatest scripture scholars post Jerome, St. Augustine. And even St. Thomas Aquinas makes a good mention of him. So, because St. Saint, he was not a saint. Well, maybe he was, I hope he was. But as far as we know, he's not canonized. But Ticonius proposed seven rules for interpreting scripture and particularly for interpreting prophetic apocalyptic scripture. And so Saint Augustine, Saint bead, seemed to embrace these rules. And so his commentary on the apocalypse is simply applying these rules one through seven to interpreting the apocalypse. Very, very, very interesting stuff. The extremely short version is that Ticonius kind of

45:27introduced me to this idea that the mystery of a niquity that Paul talks about. Does this mystery of a niquity is being restrained? And we know from the church paragraph 675 to 77 that the church herself Christ mystical body will endure a passion just like his individual body did. So this mystery of a niquity, Ticonius says is, he doesn't use the term anti-church, but that's essentially what he's describing. He says that there is this anti-church that grows alongside the church. Now, what would be the anti-church? Those who are within the Catholic church, but who are terrors, wheat and terrors, goat and sheep. And of course, we can change those variables to explain that this happens and he waits until the harvest. Yeah, to pull them out, right? Yes, and they grow up together. The Apostle said, well, should we take the terrors as he says, no, wait till the end. Otherwise, you'll uproot the wheat as well. So Ticonius really goes into this very, very interesting. I need to review, it's been a while since I've cracked the open Ticonius, but it had a powerful impact

46:27on my thinking in light of St. Augustine and St. Beads endorsement and like, okay, these are good scriptural roles. Mine too, at the time when you were, because I remember you giving me stuff to read and it was like, I just had synopsis firing in my house. Like, holy cow, man, this is so interesting. So I'll tell the story. Biden is the president at the time, and I'm like, this is exactly what he's talking about, right? You have Joe Biden claiming to be Catholic, and he's like, there's wicked man supporting abortion, and you're seeing the church and anti-church growing inside the same body. Yeah, and so basically Ticonius would argue that once the catacombs is no longer restraining that the anti-church bursts forth, and the anti-church is basically the body of the devil within the visible church. Now, to be clear, any of us can belong to that body. If you and I go out into the form tomorrow soon, yeah. We have given ourselves back over to Satan. We have gone against our baptismal vows, which were either uttered by us, and I guess my case, technically, or by our parents.

47:33I renowned Satan and all his works, and all his poms, and all that. And so our status can shift, obviously, based on what we choose to do or not. But providentially that this anti-church grows within the visible bosom of the church, and then when the catacombs is no longer restraining it bursts onto history. And since it's the body of the devil within the visible church, the anti-church teams up with the body of the devil that's outside the church, which is precisely what we see in the Passion of our Lord, where you have Judas, and the Jewish high priesthood at the time, teaming up with the Romans. I also think there's a connection there with the beast and the whore in Apocalypse 18, where potentially there could be a Jewish woman that let me get to that in a second. I do want to mention that, though, because I know you and I've talked about it, and I know some serious scripture scholars, whose names I've been requested to keep private, but they agree with this interpretation. So when Jesus, just sorry, I keep mentioning this,

48:34but just to close out this point, the language of binding of demons and Satan from so many of the fathers isn't coming explicitly, necessarily, from Apocalypse 20 though some quote it to refer to it. It comes from the Gospels, where Jesus talks about the strong man being bound so that his goods can be plundered. But then he says seven more demons come and it's worse than before. So this is why when you're comparing a pagan civilization and an apostate civilization, an apostate civilization is far, far, far worse, okay? Because it's not that it's never known Christ, it's that it has known him and said no. And abandoned him. And abandoned him. And the book of Hebrews describes apostasy in a similar way that it'd be better if you hadn't heard the faith and become Catholic if you go back. It's Judas, right? Or if you had never been born then to apostatize. Well, in Judas, Judas, this is where I think there's a Eucharistic element

49:35to all this as well. Judas is not possessed the whole time of the Gospels. He's possessed at a very specific point at John 6. No, no, he doesn't believe. But he's not in John 6 is where it first points out and John is at the last supper. It doesn't believe. He is possessed when he receives the Eucharist to spot a blood soul and divinity, he does not believe as Christ. So he's receiving in a state of mortal sin and St. Paul says you eat and drink damnation upon yourself. Well, but even John's gospel says that after he received the morsel, which all the fathers I've seen interpret this part of John's gospel as the Eucharist. I mean, Jesus says he who I give this morsel to, he gives it to Judas and then Satan possesses him and then he goes off. So he wasn't possessed simply and not believing. He was possessed when he received the Eucharist, which he didn't believe to be the body and blood of our Lord unworthily. And then he went off and did his thing

50:36and obviously that didn't go well for him. And so anyway, this is where this language comes from and you actually find the Roman catechism that was issued by the Council of Trent, it actually does talk about three principal signs that will proceed the Lord's return. One of them is, and I think the first one has happened, the third one has not happened. I think the second one we're arguably in the midst of or potentially nearing the completion of. The first one was the going of the gospel to all nations because Jesus says this gospel will go throughout the world as a testimony and then the end shall come. Okay, and this is part of the plundering of the goods. So when Satan is bound, Apocalypse 20, let's put it together, when there's some sort of restraint put in, Second Thessalonians 2, when the strong man is bound so his goods can be plundered, gospels, this is all to allow the spread of the kingdom of God or this thing that in Daniel 2 is described as a rock or a little stone that becomes a mountain that fills the whole earth. Similar description in Isaiah 2 of the mountain of the Lord

51:37like it's the smallest and it comes the biggest of those the whole earth. Other prophets describe it the exact same way. I think it's, is it Hosea? One of the prophets, like he basically quotes Isaiah 2 word for word almost on the same description. So this is the plundering of the goods of the strong man who has been bound. Who are the goods, human souls that have been enslaved to Satan, okay? So that has to happen. I think that has happened. I think it'd be very, very hard at this point to argue that every nation has not received the gospel in some form or another. Doesn't say they'll all convert, doesn't say they'll all believe, it just says it will have gone to every nation. So I do think that that's happened. The second sign is a great apostasy and the third sign is the advent of Antichrist. I don't think the third one has happened. He may very well be here, but he is not fully unveiled. He's not revealed yet. So the second one is the great apostasy of the Gentiles. So this gets back to Luke 21. Which, various fathers, I believe,

52:37bead included, Saint bead, the venerable, do in fact interpret it in the way I'm mentioning here and that you referred to earlier. Our Lord says, and Jerusalem, this is 21 verse 24. And Jerusalem, it talks about the destruction of the temple and says, and Jerusalem will be trought and down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So throughout the fathers, throughout the whole tradition you see that, I mean, Jesus' parables just so so many places that the Jewish people were prepared to receive their Messiah, but their fall was also prophesied. We have this, the corner, the stone that was rejected by the builders has become the chief cornerstone. Our Lord applies this directly to the Pharisees and the Jewish leadership. So there's this switching. It's not saying that all Jews are rejected now, of course not, because then we wouldn't have the apostles and our lady, that's absurd. But it is a going to the Gentiles.

53:40We see this, when our Lord talks about the sign of Jonah, what did Jonah do? Jonah was told to go to the Gentiles, the Syria in this case and preach repentance, he doesn't want to, he doesn't want to. So he goes off, he gets eaten by the way, or whatever, it's very clear he dies because he gives a prayer from sheol, which is the realm of the dead. So he dies, he rises again on a third day and then he goes and preaches repentance to a Syria, to Nineveh and they repent. So when Jesus says that you will not receive a sign but the sign of Jonah, that's part of what he's talking about that the Messiah will die, he'll rise again in the third day, he'll preach repentance to the Gentiles and they will repent. And so that's the going of the gospel to the Gentiles. So when he speaks about the times of the Gentiles, I think it is that time period in which as Paul says, there's a partial hardening that comes over Israel and he says that by their stumbling, we are saved, right? So this is that time of the Gentiles. So yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, no, it's coping. Oh, I think this is part of when the catacorn is restraining.

54:41I think it's part of when Satan is bound. And so it's all incredibly interesting but suffice say, I've posted this on X before but I think it's not a coincidence that the following things, I can't string all this together, it would take too long. I'm just gonna put a few things out there in case it's thought provoking for people. And if you've seen it on X already, I apologize, but I don't think the following things are coincidence that they've occurred roughly within a 20 year period or so. The invention of nukes, the use of nukes, the virtual disappearance of Christendom, the appearance of the UAP phenomenon, that's why I found St. Athanasius's, my godson is in there, Jared Salam, great, great, great young man. He's very intelligent, very, very good man. Former Mormon, former LDS, so he's a very smart kid. So people check out Jared. When St. Athanasius says that our lord ascending,

55:44when he says our lord ascending into heaven, cleared the atmosphere of demonic entities, we won't go into this too much right now but I think there are other fathers who make an other ecclesiastical writers like Eusebius who make very, very similar comments. And so if that's part of the binding of Satan, I personally would have be surprised if the losing of Satan would bring these demonic entities back into the atmosphere that people are calling them aerial phenomena, or identified aerial phenomena. It adds a very good point. Correct. I don't think these are crazy suppositions, I might say. I don't think so actually, quite logical. And so where was I going with that? Oh yeah, so the UAP phenomenon, aliens, whatever. Nukes, Christom has disappeared. They're basically no more temporal powers that acknowledge the authority of the priesthood, what, Lichtenstein. I think the Prince of Lichtenstein mock you with this.

56:45Oh boy, now he's before, he and Jared and I haven't talked in a bit and now he's using terms like Mog. So man, being corrupted by James, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I love Gen Z, I wear my proud. You know what I should do for our next show? I should get a badge, like one of those reward badges that says unc on it, because I know some of our mutual friends. Somebody pointed out, they said I love that Anthony and Josh can sit and have this conversation and they come from such a drastically different backgrounds. I think it's actually a testament to that like God makes his mysteries accessible to anybody, you know? And it's not like it doesn't just reserve them for the, for the, for the, for the wise of this world, you know, it's like, yeah, all right, I'm a construction worker, but these are topics that any one of us can access. And I think it's actually important that people see that. Yeah, and then I do think I, when it comes to Christendom, you know, I do think Paul the six laying his TR on the altar. The TR was a traditional representation that Pope said

57:47warned for a thousand years roughly representing Christendom. And the traditional doctrine that the Pope held supreme spiritual authority. And there was a sense in which he held supreme temporal authority. He wasn't supposed to, he was supposed to basically delegate the temporal sword to a Christian prince, right? So he was not supposed to possess and use it himself, except in the most extreme situations where, for example, so imagine if you're, you're, you're, let's just go back to Saint Peter and Caesar. Now, Saint Peter did not baptize Caesar, don't get me wrong. But let's say it was Saint Peter and Caesar. Saint Peter, you know, baptized a Caesar. Caesar becomes one of his spiritual sons. And let's say the rest of the Roman Empire becomes Catholic as well. And then Caesar, being a Catholic under the spiritual jurisdiction of Peter, starts abusing some of the other Catholics. So what is Peter supposed to do? Well, Peter does have authority to reign in his spiritual son. So that's, so it's, it's not meant to take over the temporal power. In that sense, but it is meant to restrain. And if necessary, take it away, not to hold it permanently,

58:49but then to immediately delegate it to somebody else. So that was, it's almost as if in the laying down of that people, Tiara, he, he gave away any, any, it's like he gave away that, that, that he would reign those authorities in, you know? It's like, not that, not that he still doesn't have the authority. He does still have the authority. But it's almost like this symbolic thing where he was like, I'm just not going to intervene in, in these kingly affairs anymore. I think a possible way to interpret it is I am no longer going to restrain in these matters. Yeah, and that goes to, if we are in the passion that goes to Peter's denial, right? Like he doesn't, he doesn't outright, he doesn't outright like say, Christ isn't, Jesus isn't the Christ or anything. He just denies knowing him. And I've, I've caught and flak from people from, for saying that, seems like all the post-concilior popes are almost like that. It's not that they deny Christ. It's more like there's like this hesitancy to proclaim the truth of Christ

59:50with fervor, especially the most difficult doctrines, you know? It's almost like they're hesitant and they, they want to put it as gently as possible. They don't, they don't, they don't speak like the popes before this period. I think it's actually a bit more specific than I, I agree with you in some ways. I would refine it a little bit more and I could be wrong. This is very speculative. But if we do take our Lord's Passion as a type of the Passion of the Church, don't expect Peter to be impressive, you know, and it's in Luke actually that our Lord says, you know, Satan wished to sift you, but I've prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And then when you convert, it's interesting that our Lord is saying, I've prayed for you that your faith will not fail, but then when you convert. So it's like, does this faith fail or doesn't it? I think the more logical interpretation is that his faith does not fail. His courage does. So I think what Peter, when, as you said, Peter never says, he's not the Messiah. Peter says that I, Peter, do not know him. So I think in a sense, and again, this is, this is very speculative.

1:00:51So I, I think we all need to hold these things somewhat loosely. But if we're just going with what the church says, paragraph 675 or 777 about the Passion of the Church, it, it seems like Peter is, is denying that there, that he has a sort of exclusive relationship with Christ. And, and I think that's kind of the spirit that's pervaded about the church. What do you see happening with these ecumenical meetings? And you know, that's kind of, he's, he's almost denying his own special relationship as, I mean, we saw even Pope Francis took, like, gave up the title, Vicar of Christ and things like that. I'd have to double check that. I heard, I heard that there was some, some confusion. I'm not positive, but yeah. But in general, yes, this is the general bent of a lot of that. And look, when, when we're talking about this stuff, like the most speculative theology you can talk about is eschatology, right? Like these things aren't set in stone. Like ideas can be wrong and we could be misreading things. But we're just kind of like bouncing ideas off and without getting too much into curiosity,

1:01:54we're just looking at the signs of the times and saying, look, it's, it's almost like this. Like I see some people lose their faith and they go to set it to contism, or I see some people lose their faith and they're going to Eastern Orthodoxy. I'm trying to give people like a theological framework to understand the crisis a bit. Because when, when you have a theological framework to understand this stuff, it kind of makes sense, especially if you do see the church as in her passion. Yeah, and these are like the small little speculations. The big thing I want to communicate is the big picture idea of this restraining of the dragon, the period of the thrones, the dragon coming back, what happened when the dragon was restrained, what happened when the strong man was bound, what happened when the catacon, the restrainer was in place. The fathers tell us, Christian history tells us, we know what happened. Therefore, what happens when it is no longer present, when the, when the dragon is no longer bound, when the strong man comes back with the seven more demons, when the catacon no longer restrains. In each of these places, in the gospel, we have the strong man coming back with more demons,

1:02:56or represents Satan as demons. In 2 Thessalonians, we have Antichrist coming by all the power of Satan. In Apocalypse 20, we have the brief release of Satan. So there are some sort of diabolical element that God in his providence permits, which is a great mystery anyway. But one of the other things I was going to say that I wasn't surprised it all happened within 20 or so year period. Vatican II ends. I believe Paul VI laid the papal tiara on the altar in 1964. I think it was 1964. And then Vatican II ends in 1965. And then Jewish sovereignty is regained over the city of Jerusalem, the old city of Jerusalem two years later. No longer trodden by the Gentiles. Now, this is gets to another point. We're almost to an hour. So I mean, you tell me. Yeah, let's shut the car as well. I do want to make sure we give people time. We'll definitely give them time. Like, well, I'm staying a little late tonight. We'll give them time. So I'd like you to finish up your thoughts. Yeah. So the other else. So I actually wanted to read.

1:04:03Because this is very important from the from this is from my oath and into the church. And this is what it says, I admit the sacred scriptures in the sense, which has been held and is still held by Holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge the true sense and interpretation of sacred scripture. And I shall never accept or interpret them except according to the unanimous consensus of the fathers. What that means and many Catholics are not aware of this is that when the fathers are unanimous in interpreting scripture, that is considered an infallible indication that something is revealed, meaning without error. You know, contrary to a lot of the the misrepresentations of the Catholic faith, we do not believe that the papacy is the only source of infallibility. We believe that the papal office can be infallible in certain conditions. Obviously, the papal office along with all the other bishops can be infallible. We believe that the universal and ordinary magisterium can be, you know, has it ever been dogmatically declared

1:05:05that Christ is the Messiah? No. Has it ever been dogmatically declared that Sunday is the day of Christian worship? No, it hasn't. So things like that are part of the what's called the universal and ordinary magisterium. It's just what basically literally every priest has ever said ever. So that that's considered infallible. The census Fidelia and the people as a whole, etc. So the unanimous consensus of the fathers is considered infallible. So I took the South, July 13th, Saturday, Fatima Day, 2019. We get into 2020. I had just consecrated my life to our Lady, January 1st, 2020, was in Italy. I was with a friend of mine and both of us got the respiratory bug that was pretty bad for him. It was it was not pleasant for me, but I got over a little quicker. And we think was pretty certain it was COVID. You know, I came back. I had a bunch of, you know, flam for months, just gray flam. I'd never experienced not to be gross or anything, but I

1:06:06right when I came back, having gone to see the monks at Norte visited Rome again, I was immediately running into like Ticonius and some of these fathers on these sorts of questions. And it was so intense. I was in a financial position to just say, I'm going to stop all work and focus just on this for a bit. And so I concluded, I need to write like a 30 page, 40 page, whatever it ends up being reflection, just distilling all these. I'm like, this is all making a whole lot of sense. And then days into starting this, the lockdown started. I was just like, what is going on? You know, it was the most surreal series of coincidences, quote-unquote, that I've ever experienced in my life. So anyway, that later became like a 350, 375 page manuscript, a thousand footnote, something like that. So that is like my rough draft. I'm working on that still to refine it in light of all the reflection the last six years. But I went into COVID knowing that the unanimous consensus of the fathers is binding.

1:07:09What are the fathers unanimous on on the end times? Not everything. But they are unanimous on a few points. Let's start with this one. First, anti-Christ will make the public sacrifice of the mass illegal. So what happened in COVID, the lockdowns, the prohibition of public worship, was the closest this planet has ever come, factually, to what anti-Christ will do. So that immediately queued me in. This isn't just dark. It's anti-Christ dark. Now that doesn't mean he's necessarily right around the corner. I'm not making any claims about that. I have suspicions. I personally think it's more likely than not. It's in my lifetime if I live to a normal lifespan. I'm 37, disturbingly close to 38. But what happened in COVID was the closest we've ever gotten to what anti-Christ will do. If you want verification for this and sources, you can go on a journal Christian's website. St. Robert Belleman talks about this. I believe it's

1:08:12in chapter seven of his treatise on anti-Christ. You can get this from media to express our friend, Ryan Grant, who's the translator there. He cites all the fathers. He says, yep, they're unanimous on this point that this is something anti-Christ will do. Now, another point is I think most people are familiar with understanding anti-Christ as a false prophet for the whole world. So drawing basically all people into some form of false religion. The other element that the fathers are unanimous on and we need to remember is that anti-Christ will also be a false messiah for the Jews. The fathers are unanimous that the Jews will initially receive anti-Christ as their messiah and they basis on several tax primarily our Lord saying, you don't accept me because I come in a name of another, but there will be one you accept who comes in his own name. And so the fathers are unanimous on this point. And so while there are divergences of opinion among the fathers, Father Ripperger, who I love, was incorrect in his recent... I agree. I think Father Ripperger is a

1:09:17little off on his... Yeah, no, he has a doubt. Well, to his credit though, he did say, according to the father's I've read. So he did limit it. So technically he's not incorrect because I believe him when he says the fathers that he has read indicate that the temple will never be rebuilt. There are fathers who do believe that. There are fathers who do believe it's the church, but there are lots of fathers who also believe the temple will be rebuilt. Yeah. And this makes sense if anti-Christ is to be received by the Jews as a false messiah. And then they will convert by the way. The fathers are also unanimous about that. So don't forget that. Yeah, there's also a lot of the fathers repeatedly say that the messiah will come from the tribe of Dan. And I've gone through it enough on this show to explain to people that like the Jews of the southern two tribes, the tribe of Dan is part of the ten northern tribes that break away and they get mixed in with the Gentiles so much that they're basically Gentiles. So my theory is that the anti-Christ could just be a Gentile that they will then claim, hey, we found out that he's actually from the tribe of Judah or Benjamin.

1:10:23And try to see him, try to see him as a descendant of David when he really will be from the tribe of Dan, but he may not even know he's from the tribe of Dan. So very good, very well could just be a Gentile that they say, hey, he's a messiah. Yeah, possibly. And so people know the basis for the Dan interpretation is from Jacob's prophecies over sons in Genesis 49. And then the lack of Dan in the 144,000 listed from the 12 tribes in Apocalypse 14, I think it is. So that's where that whole idea comes from. So yeah, there is some supposition here. It's not explicitly laid out. But I mean, you can look in Jewish sources and that many of them say, yeah, messiah will rebuild the temple. I mean, if you're Jewish, why wouldn't he? You can't even fully live your religion offering sacrifice according to law of Moses. You can't even fully do it without the temple.

1:11:23In fact, that was the basis, you know, Tucker Carlson just did this episode talking about the rebuilding of the temple, whatever. Man, this is a risk topic too. But we did a whole top, we did this whole podcast. It was like a little over an hour last summer covering, you know, almost all the testimony, pagan and Christian about Julian the apostate. As we talked about him earlier, Julian apostate's attempt to rebuild the temple. Now, some fathers, it's very interesting. St. Cyril of Jerusalem seems to say in his writing that there may be a temple, but then there were other contemporaneous accounts that basically say also sites. I think that's about our buddy, Gideon. Who I actually am. Yeah, what did he say? What was that comment? Can you put it in? I've seen him, I've seen him, I've seen him. He's also sites prophecies about Dan and Deuteronomy and Jeremiah. Yeah. Gideon's a Jewish convert to the Catholic faith, brilliant guy. I've had some great conversations with Gideon. I hope this doesn't embarrass him. Gideon is genuinely one of the, it's really the best word. He's really one of the sweetest people I know.

1:12:27He's very kind. He is a very intelligent, very important for the Jewish people to convert. Like really big, it really weighs on him. He's like, he really wants to see the Jewish people convert. And he gets a lot of crap from large person social media who are more psychopathic. Paul will convert so and stuff. No, I know Gideon. Definitely not. Yeah. So anyway, so anyway, maybe, but, but, but, but, you know, again, if you, if you view history as the binding of the dragon, the unbinding and his reverse images, well, temples destroyed, and then they're expelled from the Holy Land. So I, I think this is fully compatible. I know many Catholics who, who believe this, who are serious theologians and as Gideon has pointed out, there are even some fathers who actually entertain the idea that the Jews could come back to the Holy Land. Now, what this doesn't mean, this, this needs to be done carefully. So there are different sources of rights and what you get

1:13:31depends on the source. So for example, you two Gideon. So, you know, you work for a company, you do construction stuff, I've been self-employed much my life, a lot to contracts, right? There are contractual rights, right? I have a right to get paid X amount of money from that guy, right? In such a case, we can't go to a third party and say, I have a right that you pay me what he owes me, right? So because the right is from the contract. Okay. There are rights from nature, meaning our human nature, natural law. So every person has a right to be treated justly, which is to receive what they are, or do. You know, parents have a right to be obeyed by children. I'm not super comfortable with the language of rights, but just it's what people are familiar with. So that's a right can come from nature. So every nation that begins to exist has a right to exist, according to natural law, including the state of Israel. Then there is a divine right,

1:14:32which is that I have a right bestowed directly from God to do this. And that is where that is completely false when it comes to the Jewish people and the Holy Land. When you look at scripture, their occupation of the Holy Land is always contingent upon some sort of covenantal faithfulness, although there are times when God says, I will bring you back despite your unworthiness, right? So essentially, what I think is happening is I completely deny, as I think every Catholic has to, that the Jews are in the Holy Land by divine right, and that this is some sort of like God paying off his promise to Abraham. No, that's not what this is. But I do believe that God has permitted them to come back to the Holy Land as a preparation for the whole of the thought, as a preparation for the coming of this false Messiah and eventually their conversion. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it goes, it goes to Luke 21 saying that that Jerusalem will be

1:15:35trodden by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. So my whole thing is that I, I mean, and look, this period, we don't know how long this is, like it's been going on since 1948, right? So this period since 1948, now what, and even in my conversations with Gideon, he's told me that there's like Messianic Fervor in Jerusalem right now there, and I talked about it even when you hear Netanyahu speak, like Netanyahu is an atheist, right? And what is he doing? He's referencing I'm a lack in the Amalekites, and it's like he's building upon that Messianic Fervor because he wants to get the fanatics drummed up, and it's, I mean, it's just a lot of, a lot of things happening right now that are just like their eyebrow raising, that's what I'll say, you know. But again, it really, it really just goes to the reverse image. The Jews were expelled, the temple was destroyed. What's the reverse image? They come back, at least in attempt, now my personal opinion on the temple, I tend to think Antichrist will put it out there as an offer, and he may even go in the temple

1:16:38mount and kind of say like, this is my domain now, I am God, something like that. I tend to think, this seemed to be St. Cyril Jerusalem's opinion. It's a, why do I cite him? He was the bishop of Jerusalem when Julie and the apostate tried to rebuild it, and it was, it was noted by several Christian sources. This is all on a, on a quote archive, on eternalchristin.com, on the podcast, that he said that this will never happen. He said it won't happen because based on our Lord's prophecy, that not ones don't be left upon another, and his reading of Daniel 9, would seem to speak about the desolation lasting to the end. I'm forgetting the exact language, but the desolation going to the end of the holy place. So I don't, so I think Father Riberger is probably right on that in terms of a factual description of what the end times could look like. I think it's more likely than not, it will not be built. But I do think it'll be put out there because the third temple is essential to a great deal of Jewish messianic expectation.

1:17:38And frankly, we can say that as Catholics. No problem. Why? Because Jesus is the third temple. Jesus, the Catholic church is the third temple. That's the issue. And why their conversion is so important. This really is, and this is something I'm very happy you've emphasized often, is all throughout scripture. There's this, there is this divergence of brothers and reunification of brothers. So there is a sense, think if you are a pagan, if you are a pagan, but then you become Catholic, does your pagan family cease to be your family by blood, by nature? No. And you desperately want them to become Catholic. So we're in a somewhat similar situation with the Jews. The Jews are our Lord's natural family. And to speak analogically, of course, because God, as God, doesn't have desires in the same way that we humans do. Like, if he doesn't get it fulfilled, he's messed up or whatever. But Christ desperately wants, I mean, he wept over Jerusalem. He wept over Jerusalem. There's the Jesus wept. But then the one where he's the most

1:18:44profuse is, seemingly, is over Jerusalem. Forgive them for the universal community. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And so, but then as you you've talked about frequently and whatnot, we see, we see these cases, these typologies throughout scripture of brothers reuniting, whether it's Jacob and Esau. Now, it's interesting because Isaac is the one, I'm sorry. Yeah. No, was it a, yeah, no, I'm sorry. Yeah, it was it was Jacob. It was Israel who stole the inheritance from Esau. Yes. Then I'm sorry. No, Jacob stole the inheritance from Esau. So then he's renamed to Israel and Israel and Esau are reconciled. Yeah, that's actually interesting. Yeah. It's not Jacob and Esau. Yeah. As a change, his name changes. Yes. Yeah. And Israel, he wrestles with both sons is 12 sons. They sell Joseph at the slavery. Joseph then becomes the seated at the right hand of the king and ruling over the Gentiles.

1:19:46Right. And then and then they and then he reunites with his brothers too. I pointed out that like even even what the church is doing with with the Abrahamic faith house, it's like, it's like the church is trying to fulfill the scriptures about the brothers reuniting in a carnal sense and not actually reuniting them through the covenant through Jesus Christ. It's like some really some really interesting things happening on a spiritual level going on there. There's also this factor is that no Israel, no Jewish kingdom has ever lasted more than 80 years. The Davidic kingdom was 80 years. And so we're coming up on 80 years. It's another thing that kind of puts the sense of urgency on me thinking that we're getting a little close to that to that time period. You know, but the reason I think the conclusion I would encourage people to ponder prayerfully this lent with respect to this brother dynamic, you know, I was part of a Christian fraternity. It was found out by Protestants, but really good group. And I founded a chapter at my alma mater, the University of Kansas. I was president, you know, we got pretty, you know,

1:20:47pretty good size, but our founding versus Psalm 133.1, how good and pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity. And we have to, you know, Scott Hahn kind of caught some plaque for saying this in his interview with Gavin Ashen and both are on eternal christmas of iosie board. They're both friends. And so, and I know you've had your scuffles with with one of them, who may or may not have a favorite. Exactly. One of my favorite shows never was breaking down that interview. Yeah. And I love Gavin. I don't fully agree with him and everything, but I love Gavin. I love Scott, obviously. But anyway, Scott referred to, you know, if like if you're in the old covenant now, it's kind of you're like in a burning house and you need to get out. Now, I think I don't want to speak for Scott, but I think the basis for that, you and I have talked about this, Moses, I think it's in Deuteronomy 18, I believe. Moses tells the people of Israel when this other prophet comes, which I believe even Jews interpret messianically, you will listen to what he says. And then God says something very intense. I don't have it in front of me. I'm paraphrasing. God says, if you don't,

1:21:50I myself will require it of him. It's there, black and white. I didn't say it. God said it. And so, if you misidentify the Messiah that goes for everybody, by the way, God himself will require it of you, but particularly those with whom he was already in a covenant. And so if you're in the old covenant by circumcision, despite the fact that you haven't been baptized, there is a sort of covenantal, no, they're sort of there is. There is a covenantal obligation, not stemming from baptism, but stemming itself from circumcision to accept the Messiah, which is why Paul's invective against those who insisted so much on circumcision, as opposed to baptism or that you somehow need this to do, it was so strong. It's like, no, this is what pointed you to that. The circumcision of the flesh is now the circumcision of the heart, that the Holy Spirit of Jeremiah 31, this is, I will write the law of God on my heart on your heart, what? And Italian doesn't. Yes, sorry. Yeah, they're getting mad. We have to do the call.

1:22:53All right, all right, all right. We're going to go to the colon section segment before that knicknacks.com. I'm going to do two quick two quick promos. What is it? knicknacks.com. Oh, he doesn't have the thing set up where it just pops up the promo code. Knicknacks is code AB 25% for 25% off your first purchase. Knicknacks is product containing nicotine nicotine is an addictive substance, but nicotine is definitely not a smoking cessation device, even though I use the quick smoking. Also shoplopser.com, they are running a promo with us during Lent. Go to shoplopser.com, use code AB 10% for 10% off their lobsters phenomenal. I cannot recommend it high enough. It's so good. I took payment in lobster instead of payment. So go to shoplopser.com, they ship all over the country. Awesome outfit. Okay, so here's the deal with the colons. I'm going to I have very specific groups that have to send it to first before I open it up to everybody. So the first the first person that's going to get it is somebody who asked me to actually

1:24:00start the to actually do this show. He's been asking me for months. When can you do a colon show with Joshua Charles? So I'm going to send the I'm going to send it to you. So I'm going to put a little timer on my phone so that each new question again. I'm going to hit the stopwatch just to try now. Now also the thing is I'm going I want everybody that does call in to keep it brief. Okay, like it's I want to try and get a decent amount of people to come in. So get your question and keep it brief. I may even boot you off the screen for the answer. Well, and just to be clear, I'm here for at least another hour and possibly more if we want to. So while we're these things are deep, I understand the frustration with getting I told you get these are very deep things though. And so I will try to keep it to a reasonable length, but I'm also going to be generous with my own time in being around. So don't feel like it's too rushed on my end. All right. Well, I sent it to Patrick and he's not in yet. So he met a hurry up because I'm sending it to the first group chat that I have to send it to. So the group chat now has it. Then I have to send to this group chat, which I'm about to do. All right. Let's see.

1:25:08And then I don't have a 4 a.m. wake up call like Anthony. And then I'm going to send it to locals. All right. Patrick doesn't want to show his face, but Patrick is a very good friend of mine. He is the one who has been begging me for months to do this. Patrick, can you can you hear us? Hey, can you guys hear me? Yeah. Perfectly, buddy. Go ahead. All right. All right. So Josh, first of all, I want to thank you because you while going your show, you recommended the Moralia and Job. And this I had a reversion. And like, I was reading the Bible and I read Job. And I'm like, I don't even understand this. And you kind of recommended me that book by Saint Gregory. And I'm like, almost done with it. And it's just like, yeah, I can't even, it's like crazy. It's stunning. It's a stunning work. Yeah. So basically, my question is kind of tying that in into some of like the issues that we're facing

1:26:11today. So this is my question. So in light of reading Moralia and Job, a scourge can be used to exercise virtue and to imitate Christ, accepting of the scourges you are given is in accordance with the good and talking back to the scourge is an active defines to God with a lot of young men right now. There's a lot of obstacles that they have either with trying to buy a home or start a family or dating or a culture run by feminism or other things, but the overall consensus seems to be that there are a lot of trials and scourges in this way facing young men right now. So my question is, do you think these problems are a scourge given from God to young men right now? And if so, do you think that these things can be an opportunity to exercise virtue under scrutiny as well as imitate Christ? That's my question. Sure. I mean, to the second part, yeah,

1:27:13it's 100% an opportunity for that. Every suffering is. To the first question, I won't presume to say that God has directly willed it. I mean, I came from a broken family. My child was quite good. My parents divorced when I was 22. But thank God, everybody except one has become Catholic. My mom, my dad, and we're still all works in progress. So I think a lot of the system from a lot of the younger generation are suffering very, very much from decisions that were largely not made by them. And that's to a certain extent, we're falling in at them. That's an experience that every generation has to one extent or another. Not to be too kind to the boomers, but many of them, you know, I actually think a lot of the guys who came back from World War II were very traumatized. And you know, you just didn't talk about mental issues back in the day. So I think that was one of the reasons why fathers started kind of stereotypically a lot of persistence. So even even the

1:28:14indulgence of the boomers kind of stem from a sort of family breakdown, which just continued to get worse and worse and worse. So yeah, I'm sure we'll have a lot of questions about the issues with young men. But absolutely, one of the things that brought me to the Catholic faith is realizing that Christ literally sanctified all suffering. Before the cross, it was all toil. That was part of the punishment God imposed on Adam after the cross, every suffering. And trust me, I'm not a Jedi master at this. And I don't always like it. That's for sure. But we're in length. And so we're trying to embrace it as voluntarily and happily as possible. But in Christ, because of the cross, every suffering has been sanctified and can be a path to salvation. So 100% on that. I think that was pretty concise. I think so. All right, Patrick. Patrick. Hopefully I see you Sunday at Mass, brother. All right. I'll see you. Thanks. Nice to meet you, Patrick. All right. Next we got Evan. Evan, you're up, brother. Can you hear us?

1:29:19Evan going once. Evan going twice. Hello. Keep you in there. Oh, here you go. Here you go. Here you go. All right. There you go. My question for you is, do you think Donald Trump is the anti-Christ? Okay. Probably not. But I look, I'll say something that I've hinted at publicly, but I don't think I've said, but I've decided I will. Is at this point, Anthony Convouch and I've had friends I've known longer than Anthony who, in 2024, I was saying these things. So I'm glad that the Zoomers and their and their Mr. Flentays are finally, finally catching up to millennial wisdom. Because I worked in the White House and whatnot. No, I did not vote for him in 2020 or 2024. And the reason why there were many, many reasons why, I think I could be wrong. I'm not dogmatic about it. I think there are very good, reasonable people who disagree with me. And so, you know,

1:30:23maybe they're right. But what happened in COVID, for the reasons I already explained, was so antichristic, and he was the chief temporal ruler in the world. There's been no apology or repentance for any of it. I think people, at this point, can firmly conclude they've been fooled on the principle items that he promised, exhibit 1,000 and five, you know, this war that we're having in the Middle East now. And so I think I think he's a very, very troubling figure. And I'm very good candidate. I'll say that. Say that. It's a very good candidate. I've never seen like worship of a man like this before is like, like some of the things I've seen from him. I'm very worries them. And the conflict he's starting over in Iran right now, they definitely have my breed are going off. But obviously we can't know. Well, and what happened with the vaccine, whatever,

1:31:24um, won't get into all the details right now. But I was, I was helping deliver some things from bishops and different Christian and Catholic bioethicists to the administration to basically directly to the vice president to basically beg them to not produce vaccines with cells from aborted fetuses, you know, the cell lines from that. But there were better scientific ways, better ethical ways to do that. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. And when that was finally confirmed, and look, we're six years later. So I haven't really talked about this publicly before. I think it was briefly mentioned in an article with somebody interview me, but I didn't really emphasize it. Um, I told the vice president, I would not write or edit anything he said about these things. And to his credit, he accepted that and he just gave me different things to say. But I told him very respectfully, but I'm not going to write or edit anything you said about this. And if that means I can't work here anymore, then that's fine. Um, so I had to face some, some tough

1:32:24choices in that regard. And, um, yeah, I, I, there's a whole lot more to that. But yeah, I think, I think there has been so much deception. Um, this is not a Trump show, but I, yeah, I, I, yeah, I, I, I don't support the man. And there's nothing that's happened since 2021 or 2020 that has, um, convinced me that that was the wrong choice. And by the way, when people ask me what kind of conservative I am, I joke medieval. So I'm a very, very conservative person. Um, I've never not voted for president, but I did not vote in 2020 or 2024. And at this rate, I don't think I'll be voting in 2028 for president either. Whole lot of, whole lot of detail of this, but just to keep the questions going, I have essentially concluded that we are in a, um, in the, the, the season we are in is when anti-christic forces fundamentally control the levers of what was once Christian civilization. Um, it's now apostate

1:33:27civilization. And they consistently present as choices that are distinct enough to be able to have to make a choice, but not distinct enough to get us off the road to anti-christ. Um, so I am done with the game. That is my conclusion. And Anthony, you can vouch for me that I've been upfront with you. Yeah. Yeah. Josh is, Josh is probably one of the first people who got me to, so now I just posted the StreamYard link in the chat. Um, so we have, we have, I think we have, what I mean, see, we have three guys lined up, four guys lined up actually. So, um, but I just posted the link in the YouTube chat. So if anybody else wants to jump in, but um, yeah, Josh is, Josh and I have been talking about this a lot is definitely he was the first one to get me to start looking at Trump differently, to be honest. Um, I was very caught up in the fervor in the most recent election. And then when things started going south, and I started getting a really bad feeling, I was talking

1:34:27to Josh about it. And I was like, Oh, man, he started, you know, telling me some things that I was like, Oh, man, this guy. So, um, a lot of, yeah, I went to work at the White House. And I think there are good people there. And I think I could be wrong. I just look at the man's actions. I look at the promises. I mean, even just today, you know, apparently, transiting your kids is fine. That was later amended. And who knows the very first day of the new administration. We've got this operation stargate that's interestingly named with respect to AI, you know, so many things. The inflation that definitely got worse under Biden started under Trump. Okay. Wasn't Biden who signed a more than six trillion dollar bill that where we had de facto communism in the United States of America was not Biden. Okay. So I think, yeah, this could be a whole long topic, which we want to get to more questions. But I think if you look clear eyed at the actions, what has happened is that all the people who should be the most discerning have been the most

1:35:34duped. And I think everybody is, if they're not starting, we haven't even mentioned Epstein. Haven't even mentioned it. Um, but if people are finally starting to maybe think that. And it's about time. And I don't see it say that was scolding. It's, it's anger at these, these rulers, these wicked men, um, who if they expended half the amount of effort in our own country that they did in these wars blasting civilians to hell, maybe we'd be in a better place. But I, I am just, so this is the first time I've like out and out. I am no longer. I've never pretended about this. I've alluded to it. I am, I am calling out that this is wicked and evil. And something is very, very wrong with what is going on. Ocean, if you want to come on without showing your face, like Andrew's coming on without showing his face, you could do that. So Andrew, you got to turn your mic on. Your mic's muted. There you go. Andrew, your mic's not muted anymore,

1:36:38but all right. I'm going to leave you in the green room. All right. Austin, you're up. Austin, what's up, Austin? Hey, how you doing? Hey, the first person shows their face. Yeah. Well, so I actually have a more of a like political question. It's not like eschatology, but like I really disagree with like almost a lot of what you guys say. Hey, just like I'm kind of, you come on before, right? You came on last time. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I just, wait, you disagree with me? Nope. Can't talk to you. Yeah. It is a reason like my literature position and stuff, but I still like how do you get to the conclusion? I think both of you have either alluded to or just stated outweigh that the tridentine mass is like better or superior version. Because I've gone to like several and like every single time it's just worse than the standard move of a solo I got to. How is it worse? Uh, the Latin's worse. Uh, you can't hear the entire woman canon.

1:37:41And then, uh, I don't particularly like the fact that the lady doesn't say the part of no still stuff like that. I know I'm probably pushing off your entire chat right now. It's stuff like that. I think, um, there have been several where they say, oh, I'm just, and then they just mother the rest of the collect stuff like that. Um, also hearing a tridentine mass where the priest doesn't like particularly know Latin is, uh, I don't know. It's, it's actually like, I will say this. I've been to Latin masses where the priest's Latin was worse than mocked and mine isn't great. But I have to say I, I mean, I obviously completely disagree with you. I'm just going to the Latin mass steadily for the past, uh, eight years now. It's been transformative in my life. I mean, I guess you have a very subjective take on it. I would say, uh, just the, the reverence given to the Eucharist itself,

1:38:41um, the reverence given to even, even though, even the liturgy itself, and how careful, uh, the priest is in reading the, in reading the rubrics. And you know, the chat's trying to say that there's a problem with the link. I just wanted to mention it before. Oh, is that? Yeah. Oh, man. Uh, let me see if I can try it again. I don't know. Um, Austin, I, I appreciate, I'm going to let Anthony, I appreciate you mentioning. I, I don't mind getting people disagree asking questions at all. What I mind is when people are, uh, you know, just incertius and, and take the absolute most negative interpretation of everything and then proceed accordingly. That's what I, yeah, so like you really mind. No, I get all of that. And like, when you, you, you see you're like, I'm just going to see your standard, like, tridentine mass. It is more relevant than your standard dialysis and that's like, that's really not a question I'm, are you in? But when I see like the two whites compared, well, same

1:39:42height, but two different forms as you compared side by side, I, I don't think it is in the rubrics or the way the waiter is sad with the woman canine. I, I don't see how the tridentine form is better. So Anthony, were you still fixing the link? I don't want to, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I just give some thoughts or? Yeah, go ahead. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Um, well, are, are you, I'm just curious, and I don't, I don't say cradles are intrinsically superior converts or intrinsic, that's stupid. Though the apostles were all converts, I must say, are you a cradle Catholic or a convert? Yeah. So I'm a cradle Catholic. Okay. Okay. A lot's posted in my life. I did go to like, what you would I think nicely call a clown mass. Uh, so like, I, I am like a way of the like problems in a lot of the diocese. I just don't think it's a form of the mass that has a problem. It's really just like a physical place, because if you see the new order of the mass as celebrated as

1:40:43evidently as the tridentine mass is because I think it's better. Okay. So, um, okay. So maybe make it a little more concrete for me, where is a part of the mass? And by the way, I go to a daily, no, sort of fairly frequently in my home parishes, TLM, which I far prefer. Um, but, uh, so I, I try not to encourage, um, Catholic ghettos in this regard, but I also am fulsome in my praise of the, of the ancient right. So what would be a, let's assume the best, like the tridentine, the, I don't even like calling it tridentine, ancient Latin mass traditional mass, because it's not tridentine. The council's trend simply codified what was there already. Um, and it also codified rights that had been up to 200 years old. That was, that was the youngest you could be. So, so it's, I don't, you know, you, you didn't do anything wrong, but I don't like calling it the tridentine mass, good for that reason. But, um, what would be a part if you took the noisorto, the most reverently celebrated and the TLM most reverently celebrated? What part do you think is, uh, maybe the best example of the noisorto being better? Uh, the fact that you hear the woman can.

1:41:47I see. Okay. So you, so you're some, oh, go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, because the woman can, it's probably the most beautiful prayer we have, uh, and when you go to the tridentine mass, you don't hear it, you have to read it off a sheet. And like if it is to me to be more edifying to the lady, uh, if you have to read that is disqualifying of basically everyone in history, of seeing and knowing the prayers of the mass. Well, I mean, it's just a fact that more Catholics and history prayed under the TLM. Right. But it, that's true. Yeah. But that's why I think the noisorto was an improvement and for the lady to hear it. Because most people didn't have sheets where they could read the prayers, even if they did have the sheets, they couldn't read anyways. No, I see what you're saying. I just think it'd be a very involved discussion. And there's, there's some premises that you bring to it, which I think are worth discussing. So, you know, my whole family has come in

1:42:47basically through the TLM and we were raised in Protestantism and, and sort of non-denominational or whatever. And so, um, it's just very funny. Let me, let me give, I'll give you, let me give you an anecdote that I think will illustrate my general approach to this so that we can, I'll let Anthony control whether we move on to another question just because this is like a, this is like a full app conversation. Let me give one anecdote, though. So, my sister Nancy, amazing conversion story, check out episode 16 of Eternal Christian, LGBTQ, almost suicide, almost went the trans route. I mean, crazy story. She's, she's a, she's a blessing to many people, to many other people as well. So, um, she comes into the Latin mass or local parish. That's all she knows. She and I, you know, at this point, we haven't had any discussion about Vatican II. No discussions about, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Sacrisson, Conchillium. No discussions about any of it, okay? Um, she, one day, there's a Holy Day of Obligation. She has to go to a novice, uh, ordo parish because of work.

1:43:49And, uh, you know, very standard novice ordo, very normal. It's not particularly worse, not particularly better. Just the standard novice ordo parishioner dies, diesies. She's utterly and completely scandalized by how people, by how people are treating the Eucharist. And, and, and, and, and she, she literally was crying. And, and she, she was scandalized by, you know, frankly, even women lecturers up there, which is also in precedent in the history of the church. And it's not because we hate women. It's just that traditionally women did not belong at the altar, frankly. Um, and, and a lot of these things that when you actually look into a community in the hand, what not, it started as abuses that were actually disobeying what Rome was saying. And then Rome kind of just let it happen. That's what happened in a lot of these cases. So, so, I know you, uh, you, you would acknowledge that, right? You know, like, so what I'm saying is, but what I'm saying is that there are so many elements of the TLM that go into my, my, my mom and stepdad. Again,

1:44:50lifelong Protestants, mega church type stuff. They go off to vacation in Florida one time. My mom is frantically texting me one time. She's like, is this where we're supposed to be? I'm like, where are you? They're like, we're out of Catholic parish. We think they, like, they literally didn't know because, and they had never had this discussion with me. So, the point is is that the TLM cataclyzed them in a very particular way that no discussions about Vatican II, no discussions of recent tradition, none of that was even necessary. They knew that what they were seeing was a travesty. Now, of course, it's not every Nova Sordo mash, of course not. But I would argue, and it'd be too involved to get into, I'll follow Anthony's lead on this, it's their show. I would just argue there are many, many elements of the traditional mass that inculcate this sort of eucharistic piety that because of the flexibility endemic to the Nova Sordo, other things too. But, but all right, we're going to wrap this one up. Yeah, all right, well, thanks for the call, brother. Okay, let's go with, I got to get ocean on.

1:45:55Yeah, cranberry's got it. Godly order is very good. Let's have ocean. Oh, man, this guy. All right, he's been wanting to goad me for like days now. How you doing? Hello? Do you hear us? I have to start the audio. We can hear you. We hear you. Hello? Yeah, can you hear us? Okay, so I just I just turned it on on my phone. I just turned the livestream on on my phone. So it's going to be a little delayed. But how are you guys? Good. Can you hear us finally here? You can. Oh, it's so delayed. Oh, come on. I'm just like you press this tab and I'm going to do it again. All right, go ahead. All right. I also got Sam Shemoon taxi. He wants to come on. Okay, okay. So I'm just going to ask the question. Okay. So when the Kingdom of Satan, Israel, when it finally takes over the world, in the ice walls at the end of our very flat earth fall,

1:46:57in all the agarthans come out and they kill everybody, will Italians be included in the agarthan race? This is a very hot water contention. I need this answer. I hope not. You guys are ruthless. I hope not. All right, we got to have to remove the ocean because your audio is horrible, bro. I've been seeing OCW, whatever that's from for like a few days. I know he's been excited and I saw the agartha thing too. It's funny. Oh, man. That's too funny. All right, we're going to go with Catholic Canadian. What's up, brother? Oh, yo, what's going on? Okay. So you're the Catholic Dave Ramsey, right? So I just bought a car that was $60,000 and I make like maybe $90,000. Canadian mind you a year. And I'm just wondering like with a 1,300 bucks all in a month, you know, insurance with the car payments $800. Is this a good investment?

1:47:58Like I already bit the trigger here, but like, did I make him? I don't want to have to leave me for financial abuse. I don't want to leave Ramsey quiz. I want John Deloni quiz. I want you to call me and tell me. Well, John, John, you got to understand. Like my wife is putting up with this. But like, is she is she in a area where she could leave me for financial abuse? Because we got we got our little son here and like, is it is it? Are we doing something wrong here? Like we're thinking about $5,000 a month. This is financial infidelity. And I think that your wife has every right to leave you. And it may even be grounds for an element that car was a bad purchase, but we're going to move our cabin. No, no, no, one thing. One thing. We are co-sleeping. And it's marvellous. But she's being to me. She's being to me. So it's cultural. It's like, we're we're yacht here, Anthony. Also,

1:49:00Anthony for Maryland. Anthony for Maryland. You'll know who you are. Get some serious questions on you. Very fond of Catholic and Indian. All right. Who we got next? We got Mr. C. Alayman. Hey, guys. How are you? Good evening. Thank you. Thank you for hosting this. And Mr. Charles, thank you so much for eternal Christenham. I'll try to make it quick. Josh, I appreciate it, though. Yes, man. In terms of Catholic translations into English, don't you think we need a new, uh, from the bottom up Catholic Bible translation? You know, the RSP is good and all, but like maybe one based on the low gate and of the old sub two agents, um, only because the Maseratic text came after, you know, their post Talmudic or post Second Temple Judaism. And it has arguably some, you know, uh, Jewish tendencies to mitigate, you know, the Messiah who, you know, they did a night Christ. And maybe even like the early

1:50:01church fathers who the standard currently or still is the shaft sets of the pre-night scene fathers. So I wonder if you know, Christenham can speak about that. I think, um, the Augustine Institute is working on this. They'll have the, uh, CST, Catholic standard translation. And I don't, I don't remember the exact timeline for it, but I think maybe perhaps 2030 or so over the late 2020s. Um, so I think the Augustine Institute is actually working on this too. Part of it, I, my understanding is, which is admittedly very basic, but, uh, you know, some of the Protestant companies have a stranglehold on some of the English translations in America. So yeah, that's my understanding. And I'm excited about the project. They're trying to, you know, go make the most, make the best, get all the scholars together, all the best manuscripts and do it. So one, one, one specific part in Philippians 2.6 where Paul's saying, uh, Christ being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, who existing in the form of God, kind of not being in equality with God, a thing to be grasped.

1:51:02I always wanted that word grasped to be changed to exploited. Like, he, he did not count equality with God, a thing to be exploited, right? Like, he could have at any moment, crush his enemies, but he didn't consider equality with God, a thing to be exploited, but they use the word grasped. I was never a fan of that. But yeah, it's a, it's a good question, Mr. See, thank you, brother. All right, take care. Um, okay, let me see. We got next. Okay, I want to just see. Oh boy. Oh boy. Sam Shumun, what is happening, brother? What's so boy, dude? What's wrong? I've never met you, Mr. Shumun. It's good to meet you. Well, I haven't met you either, friend. You've seen me a little larger. Now, I got to lose that weight than Anthony Gain. How are you, brother? I survived by his grace. Need your prayers as I'm learning, relearning, unlearning. So that's why I came up because you said some about the anti-Christ. And this is where I need to learn. I get, I came out of Christian Zionism,

1:52:09dispensationism, heavily pro-Israel, solubot Israel, almost like the church's plan B. Studying scripture, I saw that's a perversion scripture, but I wanted to ask you, because you said something, are you saying according to church history? They do believe that there will be a third temple and that the anti-Christ has to be Jewish because I need to study what the early church fathers prior to the rise of dispensationism taught. I don't want to, I don't want to follow, you know, dispensationism, you know, John L. Darby and Scofield, perversion scripture, but what did the church teach? As far as I can tell, and I've been reading a lot of the fathers in this over the last number of years, they are unanimous on, I'll say two, but if I'm thinking about it, if I come with a third, then I'll just add it, but two points. One, that the Jews will receive them as a false Messiah. So that's true. And then

1:53:10second, that the Jews will convert. There will be some sort of conversion to Messiah after that. Now on the temple, I was actually just reviewing some of the sources today. There is not a unanimous opinion that anti-Christ will rebuild the temple, so that the temple coming from second Thessalonians two, Paul saying he'll sit in the temple of God. So some fathers, St. Jerome was actually more of this opinion as with St. John, Christus, believed it would be the church. The temple would be the church. Although, Christus, but Christus, I think, in other places makes it seem like he's open to the temple idea. Jerome says that one of the opinions out there is that it will be a rebuilt Jewish temple. He doesn't outright reject it, but he says, I happen to think it's the church. St. Augustine outlines these various positions, but doesn't take a stance in the city of God. But quite a few of the fathers, I was just reading a father, many people are not familiar with, St. Gregory, Thalmaturgus, which, oh, gosh, what does it mean?

1:54:10Something about like a godly mouth, or, no, that's Christus, but it's a god, god, wonderworker. That's right. So wonderworker, I think, is what it is. And he's in the two hundreds, and he believed that anti-Christ would rebuild the temple, a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. So there is a split opinion on this. I think at the very least, what we can say with strong certainty, I wouldn't say infallible certainty, but since we can be infallible, be sure that the Jews will initially receive anti-Christ as Messiah, I think we can be, have a strong, reasonable belief that anti-Christ will at least make an attempt, or at least will put out the offer of making a third temple, a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. So that's, I think, as far as we can go, as far as what we claim to be certain and dogmatic about. So that's why, you know, my oath into the church, I read the language earlier, it talks about, you know, I will never interpret scripture against the unanimous consensus of the fathers. And so I always try to start with where are the fathers

1:55:10unanimous, because those provide the red lines, and then as long as we color within those red lines. So yeah, that's why I'm asking. I want to be with the tradition of church. So two final things, guys, I know you're busy. So if the temple is the church, because I thought I read somewhere that some said it was, does that mean then anti-Christ will infiltrate the church? In other words, an infiltration of the Catholic church? This is something, Josh and I have talked about. Like it's, I think that you would think that the abomination of desolation has to happen in the church. So whether that's some kind of worship of a foreign god in the Catholic church, but I know, I think it's, I think almost all of the fathers say that the pope could never be the anti-Christ, right? Like I think we can't, we can't come to that. Yeah, that's my, I mean, if they mention it at all, yeah, and Bellarmine pretty strongly camps down on that, and I'm trying to find a quote,

1:56:10there's a quote, I don't understand that position. If the temple is the church, but then Paul says, he'll enter the temple, sit on the throne, make himself out to me. Yeah, that's, that's, that's why I tend to think they're going to rebuild the third temple. So that's where I'm trying to say because if it's the church, then it means the church will be infiltrated and he'll take over because it says he sits in the cedar god, right? He's going to make himself out to be god. And if that's the church, what does it mean to sit on the cedar, the cedar god? It's not the chair of Peter. That's not the chair of Peter. That's for sure. Yeah, that's the I don't know. I think, you know, again, this is all very speculative. I mean, we have Christ promises about the indefactibility of the church that does continue to the end, you know, has promised the apostles and their successors of Matthew 28 that he will be with them to the end of the age that, you know, the church will never be defeated by hell, et cetera. You know, this is where Ticonius is very interesting. Ticonius believes, I mentioned him earlier,

1:57:11he believed that the anti church was the abomination of desolation. And that again, once this sort of restraining power, whatever it is, once it ceases, that this anti church, you know, sort of, you know, blossoms, a sort of diabolical blossoming. And I think if we just look at the passion narrative of our Lord, we'll get some of the answers we want, or that we're seeking, you know, we have Judas, the Judas element. And then he teams up with the Romans. But then when when our Lord search really undergoing the passion, the other apostles accept John leave. They scatter. And so the only people that remain with our Lord up to the cross for St. John are lady and a few women. And so, you know, in light of our Lady of Fatima, in light of those sorts of things, perhaps I don't know, it's an imaginable scenario to me where perhaps the throne of Peter is just unoccupied. And perhaps, you know, it's kind of like maybe, I think Antichrist could potentially be a sort of Napoleonic sort of figure where the Pope's going to coordinate him,

1:58:13but then before the Pope coordinates him, he takes the crown and puts it on himself. So it may be something like that. I don't think it negates the ineffectibility or infallibility of the church. But I do think there's there's no, I don't I for some of my these apps aren't working on my iPad. But there's an amazing quote I've often shared from St. Pope Gregory the great from the Moraleon Job. So the moral. So just so you guys know, we mentioned this, I think it was Patrick before. The Moraleon Job is like this thick. It's as long as City of God plus Augustine's confessions and then some. St. Thomas, when he did his his commentary on Job, said, same old Gregory the great has has done the moral explanation so well that I can't even compare. So I'm just going to move on to this other this other way of interpreting it. So so is really really incredible. And so one of the ways he interprets Job is as a picture of the true church and his friends and his wife and whatever who are pestering him are like heretics and schismatics and pagans and whatnot. So he he interprets it all very, very typologically. So there's a part where he's

1:59:15talking about Leviathan. I'm forgetting the citation just look it up and type in Gregory the great anti-Christ, passionate church, something something along those lines you'll find it. Yeah, Joe. So basically says that in the days preceding the advent of this Leviathan that that the basically the state of the church will be the worst it's ever been. And there are a few things he says he says the penances will be weaker. That's unfamiliar. He says that there will be fewer miracles. Yeah, perhaps he says the words of doctrine will fall silent in the church just before anti-Christ arrives. So I don't claim to know exactly what it will look like, but I think you know one of the greatest scourges in the church before Luther and whatnot was absentee bishops, you know bishops who had multiple dioceses and like sometimes didn't show up at all in their diocese. So maybe that's what it will be like. And maybe anti-Christ will presume to sort of sit on one of these cathedra, maybe even Peters. And of course not be a Pope, but but but maybe he'll take it. Maybe the church

2:00:16will be totally underground in those three and a half years where anti-Christ prevents the mass from being celebrated publicly. I don't know for sure. I just know won't be good. And I know that if we the scenario I propose to people sometimes is imagine the apostles had set up a debate with the Pharisees for Holy Saturday for is Jesus, is our teacher, is our rabbi, the Messiah. Well in Holy Saturday it would have been it would have appeared completely foolish to defend that proposition because like the guy's dead and in a tomb. And so I think the passion of the church will unless we understand what the eyes of faith is something like that is happening or will happen I think we will we will be scandalized and not be able to make it to Easter Sunday. So that's just that's a something I put out there for consideration. The fine I'm sorry brother I just want to ask this final because I want to be no problem for me. Yeah it's the final one is I've read the New Testament and when I died to dispensation as I saw I cannot find anywhere where the

2:01:19Mon of Lawlessness has to be Jewish. I haven't seen that New Testament. Say that one more time. Nowhere that I've read in the New Testament that the man of sin. Oh I see. I don't I don't think he'll be ethnically Jewish. I think while we talked about it a little bit before that the trot he's going to be from the tribe of Dan. But you're already opinion, not a unanimous opinion. Not unanimous majority. There's a little plot. This is the audience that he'll be from the tribe of Dan. Yeah. Yeah. So now the tribe of Dan is the 10 northern tribes, right? Dan is part of the dance. He's not in Revelation 7. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Correct. Dan is one the one tribe not mentioned Revelation 7. Yeah. So I hope he's on the tribe of Dan. But the tribe of Dan is this when the northern kingdom breaks off there dispersed amongst the Gentiles so much so that they are Gentiles. So so he will he will probably be a Gentile and then they then they will claim he is

2:02:20a descendant of David. Okay. So I don't think that this is one of the more speculative questions just to be the father's magnetic. You don't have to subscribe to it. Correct. Correct. So if you guys can do me a favor Anthony, if whatever materially is can you send it to me? I want to study this because I want to know really know what the church taught, what's dogmatic where you have to follow and what's an opinion that can agree this Greek because I don't want to go beyond what is taught. So if you've got information you got my number send it to me. Sam, I'd also like to set something up. We suit, man. I miss talking with you. I would wait three or a month. We're supposed to do something on Trinity. No, we definitely will. I love diving into the Old Testament where you say thank you for calling the brother. Thank you guys. Make sure to send me stuff Anthony. Absolutely. All right. So who we got? I love Sam. Sam's awesome. All good. That's hilarious. Chapo, you're up. What's up, Chapo? You're on your mics muted. Hey, can you guys hear me? Yep. Yes. First off, I'll just let you know. I change the name here. Just so that people wouldn't be able to look me up, but I'm the same officer from that from

2:03:21that drowning. Oh, wow. Yeah. I appreciate you guys talking about that. If you guys could keep the officer who actually did CPR on the kid and your prayers too, he's been having a pretty rough time of it. Yeah. Absolutely. What grounding is this? Well, I don't know if you want to catch him up. So I don't take up too much time afterwards or? Yeah. So, uh, Chapo is a police officer in Arizona, a baby drowned and a fellow officer resuscitated the baby. They got him to the hospital. And he got to the hospital. The doctor pronounced the baby dead. The the the mother was like, he's the baby still moving. The doctor was like, no, that's just gases like releasing from the baby's body. They put the baby in the morgue for five hours. And five hours later, they took the baby out and the baby was showing signs of life. They resuscitated the baby. The baby made a miraculous recovery. Wow. Chapo has a baby that's one year's a year old. And he was like, thank God, I did not have to perform like any kind of CPR on that baby. He was like, very try. But we and then this he told us that story privately. And then we read the story in the news yesterday. It's on Tuesday's show.

2:04:25It was just wild. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. And another quick tidbit there too is that the the detectives name on that case is for rare. Little kid's name, the combined name there has been since and for air, which I was saying, missing through air has stories about saving drowning children and drowning people, stuff like that. Just a funny coincidence. But overall though, pretty simple question for you. My extent with reading of church fathers was basically just having Jimmy Aiken's book about those tidbits of the fathers just more so as a reference book. Do you have any recommendations for books to actually start getting started on reading the church fathers? Do you have any place to start that you would recommend? Yeah. What's your bandwidth for roughly how much you can read? I mean, I get through everything. Just takes me a little bit more time, especially with the one kid. Oh, and if she's pregnant with another. So I just I get whatever time that we have to read, I get through it. Am I just taking a bit? So honestly, I'll have a big old book there. And if it takes me a couple months, it takes me a couple months. Okay. Yeah, a lot of people

2:05:28ask me, I need to I need to compile a list of like short short length works, medium length longer. I mean, certainly start with the letters of St. Nays of Antioch, the didake, the letter of St. Clement of Rome, Pope to the Corinthian church. Basically any volume of the apostolic fathers, I think the Catholic University of America press. You can see him over here and over here is their kind of bluish color. Jimmy Aiken. Is that really Jimmy Aiken? Yeah. Jimmy Aiken in the chat. No, no, I wasn't sure. Because I actually do recommend his the father's no best as a good introduction. I think it's great. Eternal Christmas working on something we think will be better, not a physical book, but something else. So hopefully more announcements around Easter or so maybe a little bit after. But yeah, apostolic fathers that start with the incarnation of the word, Athanasius. I mean, St. Augustine has, there's a lesser known work of his called the Christian

2:06:32combat, which is really, really amazing. Faith of the early fathers is kind of a more extensive Jimmy Aiken's compilation. So it's it's tidbits. So it sounded like Chapo, Chapo, you were wanting to read whole works, correct? Yeah, yeah, just to get started on that. Because I'm using the Aiken book kind of as like a reference book to just kind of look up a topic so that I can go in deeper. But start with the apostolic fathers. I mean, honestly, there are too many treasures among the fathers. I'll tell you one that is really good. The ancient Christian writer set, which is right above me here, they have published some of the works of St. Isador of Seville. He is one of my absolute favorite church fathers, his work. Oh, man, why I'm, De Efficiese is one of them. Offices in the church. Why am I forgetting the other one? I'm forgetting the name of it at the moment, but it's it just look of ancient Christian writer set St. Isador of Seville. It's got moral excertations that are unbelievable theological explanations that are unbelievable. So if you

2:07:32want like a longer work. Oh, boy. If sorry, Jeff Epstein showed up on the streets. But that would be, I mean, honestly, if you asked me this question on another day, I'd probably, besides the apostolic fathers, I'd probably give another set of suggestions. It's just, there's so, so many amazing things to work out. But apostolic fathers, incarnation of the word, any of St. Augustine shorter works. Oh, the catechetical series of St. Cyril of Jerusalem, he wrote, I think, 24, 25 of them. They're really amazing going through the sacraments, the creed. Those are really great. So I think. Oh, my goodness. All right, enough book recommendations. Let's go. Josh, we got other people. All right. Sorry. Thank you, brother. Well, no problem. Appreciate the prayers. Thank you. Adios. All right. We got Tony. We got another feast, a feast show. What's up, Tony? Well, you know, there you go. So just a bit of context.

2:08:35So I'm part of a movement of a group of men around Australia. We meet on the first Saturdays in public and offer reparations and pray for the conversions. What time is it there right now? Now it's about two o'clock in the afternoon. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, we meet regularly. So there's groups around the country and we're connected with men around the globe. It's a movement we believe started in Poland. So we obviously, in that context, because we're in public and we're praying, we get about a thousand men I reckon across the country on that day. My question is, I have come across like younger men who are Protestants and I always bring up Matthew five or Matthew six about praying privately. And obviously, I can't tell them all the church tradition is because they're not going to accept that. So I was curious if there was some insight that the fathers have any commentary or insight on that about public prayer. So that I could point to them in that direction, because that could probably system. And then just a general question around, it's so hard to get

2:09:38men to stop complaining and come on in these and pray and actually do some, like any insight there, because I struggle with that, like, because I'm the type where I don't like complaining, I just like to do, it gets me trouble a little at home. But yeah, how old are your tone? 34th. 35th? Well, you got Josh, you got any good insights? Matthew five. I mean, the fathers talk about prayer everywhere. As far as their comments about periods of public prayer, perhaps there's a Catholic University of America book, St. Augustine sermons on the liturgical seasons. So there's sermons about Christmas, about epiphany, about lent, about Easter, all those different and they're just amazing. And so it's public different seasons of the church. So that would probably be a decent place to start if that's kind of the way you're thinking. As far as the young men, look, I'm very excited about what a lot of what's happening among young men. I'm also very concerned. I will simply say, when I help start fraternity at my university, my

2:10:42alma mater, it's most people want to receive then to give. Leaders are necessarily rare. And a lot of men, a lot of young men in particular, and we're all subject to this in a certain way. So I have to look myself on the mirror and be careful about this myself sometimes. But a lot of young men I think talk much bigger games than they act. And so I think that's part of just the bane of Adam with most people. And what's changed my life is just regularity and schedule, regularity and liturgy, regularity and rosary. I mean, I can, I mean, Anthony, I'm sure has got thoughts on this. But I agree with you. There is, there is a lot of complaining. And I think some of those complaints are valid. They're totally valid. I think a lot of men are rediscovering these ancient things that they've been robbed of. And so they should, there are anger can be justified. But, but if it gets into sin, you know, in your anger, do not sin as the apostle says. So send them my rant where I went on for an hour and a half, yelling at young men to stop

2:11:47complaining. Maybe that'll help them. They'll leave the love it or hate it and say, why did you send me this idiot? So, oh, man, Tony, I'm, people are asking if you're the last Australian Catholic. So, no, mate, there's plenty of faithful men out here. Like, I'm a river. I was like a rabbit atheist for most of my young life. And, no, there's plenty of good Catholic men out there. Come down. There's a rosary in every major city. I'm going to promote it here. But, mate, I would just say, like, start one up. That's what I did. And now I get like 30 people come. Like, I'm small, but the boys in the city, they get about 500 guys every first. And that's just by grace. There was no big plan, no money, no nothing. People just came. So that make good, make good friendships with those 30 guys you meet up with, man, plan pilgrimages together and just spend time together, like surrounding yourself. Oh, yeah. Love those boys. We just had our first first retreat. We had about 100 guys rock up.

2:12:50So that's awesome. That's, that's really, that's really awesome. I don't know. God said, look, I mean, as messy as things are, God's still doing something, man. So really, really happy to call them. Thank you, Tony. And I will say, Anthony and I have talked about this. I know he's leaving. But, um, uh, one of the things I'm most excited about, the young men is it does seem like there's a revival of fraternity, um, a desire for it where it seemed like, you know, many of our, our fathers generation, um, that was not as apparent. So what's up, Christopher? Chris. Hey, what's up guys? Am I coming in? Yes. Okay. Great. Uh, thanks for having me on. I've been following both of you guys since before I was even Catholic. You've helped me so much in my faith journey. I appreciate you both. Uh, you have your own unique gifts that you offered to the church. Uh, pretty distinct between the both of you, but you're both awesome. I like you both a lot. My question for you, Josh, was going to be, um, I'm a novice when it comes to eschatology.

2:13:55I, I don't really know a lot, uh, beyond your basics. Where would be a good point for me to get started? I know that Anthony just said that he was sick of the book recommends, but I'm going to need at least one more from him. That's, that's a good, I'm even interested in that if you got a good one. You know, most of my thoughts in eschatology have come from studying scripture, book by book, which I have more to do. You can, it's infinite in the scripture. Yeah, I mean, so honestly, it's become less from reading other people's books and more like reading a bunch of the fathers. Yeah, that, I have that one. I've heard it's very good at the end of the present world. This was Saint Teresa's favorite book. Yeah, they can't go wrong with that one. Yeah, okay, awesome. And then uh, one other one for you, Josh, um, I read entertaining ourselves to death on your recommendation. I'm using, yes, I always get a mix up. No, it's fine. Uh, is there another book similar in terms of, uh, understanding epistemology or logic that you would recommend?

2:15:00Epistemology or logic, when you say similar, like you mean kind of like a social commentary kind of thing? Uh, not necessarily. So like in regard to amusing ourselves to death, what I thought was so interesting about it was understanding the development of epistemology and how it's affecting us contemporarily. So I'm, I'm just wondering if there are any other epistemological works that you would recommend or if you're more interested in the social aspect of it. There's plenty of, there's plenty of philosophical niceties. I am not super familiar with. Um, I have some friends of mine who are studying philosophy. They'd be able to probably give a, no, not probably they would be able to give a better answer. But I think one that may, it's not strictly epistemological, but I think it'd be really good kind of laying out the philosophical roots of a lot of modern issues as a book by Richard Weaver called ideas have consequences. I think it was written in the late 40s and then it was redone and I think he updated a little bit in the 50s. Um, I don't know if Weaver

2:16:03was Catholic, but he really talks like one. Like he really excoriates the idea that like for the last 500 years, modern men have tried to be their own priests and their own kings and it doesn't work. That's essentially what he said. So ideas of consequences is a really, really good one. I haven't read it in a number of years. Um, and then it's not, again, it's not specifically epistemological, but, um, and I may be butchering this as French, but Cerdelange is a Dominican called the intellectual life. We're very, very good. Okay. Very, very good. So. Okay, great. Thank you. I think Anthony, Anthony, I did have a question for you, but I think it's technically a sin. So I'm going to pass on that. I'm going to call that Chris. Yep. Thanks, guys. Take care of it. Thank you. All right. Who we got next? You got James next. James, you're up, brother. What's happening? James. Hey, what's going on? Hi. Hey, uh, he's right. He's showing us both of us up, and that's right. That's right. Like a good Italian, you know, but I wanted to make just three quick points and ask a question. Um, the first is

2:17:09I think people should really look into the holy face devotion, and, and understand that, especially in these, in these times, I think it has a special significance to it, and it has to do with reparation for sins against the first three commandments. And, and back goes even to Italian, you know, having Subu on Sundays, like that, that is an Italian Catholic tradition, but it goes to honoring Sundays and the fact that nowadays people don't do that anymore. Yeah. Oh, so that's one, too. I think people should look into Saint Vincent Faire, and, and that gives a lot of insight about the end times, because in his canonization, he is identified as the angel of the apocalypse. So this gives us the roadmap. It gives us the insight as to what it'll look like at the end. And what, why I find that interesting and relates to the, the third point of my question is, that time during the great, great, uh, great Western schism, we have the kind of defining feature

2:18:12that is not knowing who the true Pope is, and there's confusion related to that. People are unclear for an extended period of time, 40 years, arguably 70 years, if you go by someone like William, uh, Thomas Walsh, that the great Western schism doesn't really fully conclude until the mid 1400s. So I think that also can, can account for some of these, some of the Catholic views about the conversion of Jews, for example, because Saint Vincent actually converted arguably 200,000 Jews to the Catholic faith. Wow. Wow. Um, so I would point to him, and I think the third question, or the third point is, there's so much in recent history, start with Pius X, you go to law select, all the operations in, in France, which again goes back to the holy faith, devotion, that where Pius X and Peshindis, for example, he's specifically warning about the infiltration of the church, is happening in 1907. Yeah. And so the thing that I, that I find just,

2:19:17it's crazy to me is that I don't know how you guys are really anyone who professes to be Catholic, doesn't see right now today as being in the middle of the great apostasy. I don't know how much. Oh, I do. Okay. Okay. So you guys think we are. And then a lot, I think that's the most likely theory. Yeah. I mean, I didn't miss part of it. I heard the very beginning of this. I missed part of it. Okay. So, and the other subpoint on that is there are saints, and I could quote, I could read a couple quotes that specifically think that the antichrist is an antipope. And I go to the temple, the bad, the word Vatican means prophecy. So my question to you is, why don't you guys have the conversation with most holy family monastery, the, the diamond brothers? They asked me, come on. Well, why don't you ask them to come on? Like the thing is, it's always interesting. Yeah, you should. I mean, it's always interesting.

2:20:18I mean, people want to label it. They want to do whatever, but they don't want to get to the actual substance. And I found that point. I've had conversations with several set of accountists. I think, look, I, I'll, I'll even say like the hypothesis is possible. Like, it's not, it's just, is it not the most probable? I mean, I thought of interesting. Joss said that when his family went into the Nova Sordo, they didn't even recognize it. And that goes to the visibility point. It recognized that they were scandalized by the practices though. Yeah. Well, no, they're your point is granted. Your point is, okay. Yeah. Point is, it's a couple of many places. Yeah. Catholics from a hundred years ago wouldn't recognize. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. So how, how are they not the most probable? And, and here's the direct question, when the specific mark of the Antichrist is teaching, like Nestorius did, that he who dissolves Christ as Antichrist. And that was the teaching main, a heretical teaching of John Paul II. It's actually interesting because as soon as you sort of mentioned St. Vincent Ferrer, I kind of

2:21:19knew you were a set of accountists. I was having conversations with Father Geckle today and he was saying St. Vincent Ferrer than somebody else too. But yeah, dude, I'm not against talking anybody. I was, I was actually, I think the Diamond Brothers are very entertaining, man. Well, I mean, that was a very long question, but I appreciate the points you raised. I so I'll have to necessarily give a brief answer. Yeah. I think some of what they've done is actually pretty substantive and like analyzing processes and whatever. I actually think some of their eschatological work is very interesting. I would, and I've talked, Anthony and I have talked about this in, in, in private as well. I think they have some very strange takes on a number of issues. You don't need to get into all that. There's a really, really fundamental reason I, I don't think the set of a contest thesis holds. And it goes back to the thing I said about COVID actually. What queued me into the apocalyptic nature of COVID was that it technically wasn't worldwide, but basically almost worldwide, the public sacrifice of the mass was brought to an end.

2:22:22And this is something that the fathers say Antichrist will do for three and a half years. And so I think if the set of a contest position position is true, I think one would have to concede that it's been much longer than three and a half years that Antichrist has essentially had a lack of the sacrifice of the mass, basically worldwide. So I think that's a huge problem for the set of a contest position. Now, but I also don't think, look, I disagree with their position. Frank, you've been very respectful and charitable, which I really appreciate, by the way. Admittedly, I don't get into scuffles with them, at least I try not to. My experience of studies has been, there's a lot of, there's not very much charity. I'll put it that way. And now there's a lot of that. I mean, Jesus says, as we get closer to the end, the love of many will grow cold. So that's everybody. You see it all everywhere. But it seems particularly pronounced. It feels very ortho-bro like sometimes to me. You've been, you've been a wonderful exception. So

2:23:24that's great. And I know there are others out there too. But we didn't get to get into it too much, but studying the Antichurch as a typology throughout scripture is very, very interesting. So there's actually, I think it's Ezekiel 8. I think this is one of the really interesting types, where Ezekiel is taken by an angel, I think, to the temple in Judah. And true worship has been maintained in Judah. It's where the temple is. And the northern tribes have broken off from David. So they're not offering the sacrifice in the one tabernacle they have to go to. But the angel brings them over. I'm paraphrasing, but, and he says, look, there's a crack in the wall of the temple. And he says, come and look through the crack into the inner part of the temple. And he says, there's all these priests of Israel, meaning the 10 northern tribes, who are conducting like pagan and horrible type rituals. So I think, but, and yet it was still the temple. It was still in Jerusalem. And so I think our Lord's promise will guarantee that the temple of

2:24:26the Lord will will maintain itself as the temple until the very end. And we don't appreciate how badly infiltrated it actually can be without nonetheless ceasing to be, if that makes sense. So it's a huge topic. So I know that the diamond brothers tell them to reach out to me, man. I would definitely have a conversation with them. I think they were awesome. That would be interesting. How should they reach out to you? What email? I think some of them follow me on Twitter. If they don't, but yeah, if they want to email me, it's Anthony Adavoting Babylon. Adavotingbabbling.com. Tell them to shoot me an email. All right. All right. All right. All right. Thank you, James. Appreciate it. You had to get a piece of one. I thought it was great. What's a, what's a, Jared? My godson. Oh, he's a godson. Oh, very cool. Yeah. My son is logging with the, with the red beard and everything. Yeah. I haven't shaved a little while. Yeah. I usually

2:25:26got to work on the mustache, but hey, anyways, I got to tell you the city's dress much better than you frickin Nova Zordites. Oh, yeah. That's a little creepy. Best in boy. You couldn't grow. Yeah. Yeah. Now, now he's, now he's great. Now he's hairy. I was thinking, you know, my, my pants are not, my pants aren't exactly a formula right now, but you know, I could just slip on something, get on a suit jacket and just know each other. Yeah. Ask how we know each other. You can tell. Oh, yeah. Very, very, very brief. Yeah. I was going to spare you the biographical details so I can get around to the questions, but it's interesting enough. It might be worth it. So very long story short. I don't remember when you first met my mother. It was sometime after 2011 when, and you were, you had your relationship with Glen Beck and another friend of, a mutual friend of ours. And then you were a Facebook friend with my mother. And at some point, while you were becoming Catholic, reading the church fathers as an evangelical Protestant,

2:26:27you were sharing things on Facebook that my mother would then see. And very long story short, I was LDS. And after I was 14, 15, I started becoming more of a reader. And I just, I asked, you know, Josh is very, you know, the question to questions, well, how do you get all to the, the writings of the church before Constantine got a hold on the thing? And so you sends me a link to new advent. And I start reading brilliantly. God's done Paul. God's done. Yes, that's right. I thought they're like, Jared is Josh's. I was like, no, no. No, no, you're mostly German. I'm mostly Swedish. Yeah. Yeah. So, no, so long story short, I start reading the church fathers for my, on a patron saint is Saint ear and ass. I'm like the team near Josh Charles. It's in a way, except the way less public. I do, I just do way, I just do, I do lots of

2:27:31reader that I mostly keep to myself. That might change. But when his mom, when his mom came into the church, they came in at the same Easter, I think two or three years ago, when his mom had just been baptized and she sat next to me on the pew, I leaned over and I said, welcome to the biggest, most dysfunctional family in the world to go to the, the set ace point, you know, I stole that from you. I use it all the time. So anyway, just because we got, I'm getting a little low on time, I know, Anthony's getting the, what was the question? We do, we do. So nobody else clicked the link. We got three guys left after Jerry. We're going to get to them. I have, I have two questions about virtue for perfectly sendless men like yourselves. Yeah, I just joking. I'm just joking. So one's about patriotism. So Josh knows I sent him a text not long ago just asking about sort of when you feel sort of this patriotic apathy and you don't, you don't feel pride in

2:28:31sort of the, the actions of your country and such as what, you know, Trump being the anti-Christ and whatnot. What is your reaction? This is for both of you. What, what is your reaction in the midst of, you know, Josh has had a long time of, you know, both working for the government and in certain circumstances and writing about our, our nation's history. And for both of you, what, how do you come to your patriotism during times like this? You don't, with your American qualities, during a time like this, I've never felt at ease since becoming Catholic. Well, it's about loving your, I'm sorry, Josh, but I was just like the second question was too, just so we could, my second question, it's, it's, it's completely unrelated. It's also about virtue as well, but it's just more so. There's a quote from St. Irenaeus in this fragment and he makes this

2:29:35point about greatness and he doesn't, when he reads James and John and their mother going to Christ asking for the high seats and heaven next to him, in your, Irenaeus does not interpret that as a bad thing. And he, but it's sort of like St. John Christ's system. He's just sort of redirects it to suffering, but it's just in a call of humility, where is the place of that personal ambition? Those are sort of personal questions for me, but I, I, I, I wonder what, how do you go through that? The second question you're asking, like, how do you, how do you not be prideful in your ambition, basically? Right. So there's, I think that there's a tendency in the modern era to sort of downplay yourself and your capacity to, to sort of not take, not take the helm to not,

2:30:40you know, sort of be, not being prideful, but also not being self-deprecating unnecessarily. Just getting, I can give you two examples on this. Okay. So in my job outside of this, I started off in construction when I was young. When I went into that company, I wanted to be the, the best guy at that company. Like, I, I learned how to run every piece of equipment. Like, I worked my way up to the top as quick as I could. My head got very big because I was 22 years old, and I was basically running the company, and I was in charge of guys that were 55 years old. And what happened was we lost one of the contracts. So I went from being the most important guy at the company to just going back to being a laborer. And it was one of the most humiliating things I had to deal with because I went from being a big shot to just being a laborer there. And it was, it was something I think God allowed me to go through to humble me. For the next time we got the next contract, I didn't let it go to my head. Like, I almost needed that lesson in humility,

2:31:43and I had to still go into work and actually use St. Teresa's little way because I had to go to work a job I hated, and I had to do it all for God and still remain joyful and still remain happy because I didn't want to come home and be miserable for my family. So it's like, I, I do think there's an element of taking pride in your work that needs to be there. So like, when I, when I, when we got the next contract and I was the next guy to come up, I did need to take pride in my work, but I needed to prevent myself from getting too proud and thinking I'm better than everybody. So that might be something that you're going to want to be learning through experience. But the other thing is in this show, when I started this show, it's like, there was the temptation to try to go viral. There was the temptation to try and go on with the biggest names and do this and that. And even through this, I've learned like, just be content with what God gives you. Do the best you can at something and be content with

2:32:44what God gives you. Don't worry about how big the show is. If you're doing something good, God's going to bless what you're doing. And it's, I mean, I'm very fortunate in that God has taken care of me in that situation. But I think a lot of the question you're asking is going to come through experience and kinds of, kind of like ups and downs and stuff that you're going to go through in your life. It's a good answer. Just because we have a few more people to get to, I think I can answer them really pretty quickly. And we can of course talk offline more. The humility thing is a really big topic. I will simply say I've, the way God has worked with me often, I think it is to help me grow humility, which I definitely, we always need to grow. I know, I need to grow the humility, the humility is always a very humbling, no pun intended, but humbling prayer to read. But I mean, our Lord talks about don't, don't see yourself at the highest point on the table, but be asked to come up. I think it's very powerful. And it's been very true in my life that virtually every, virtually every big opportunity I've had, whether it was Glenback or Museum of the Bible or the White House or even Eternal Christian, the founding patron who came

2:33:50to me and literally said, I want to support you doing something. It literally just kind of fell on my lap. And I was prepared for it. I worked hard and prepped. And like God was making sure I was ready essentially, at least ready enough to do it. But ultimately when it happened, the connection was not made particularly by my own effort. It just popped in my lap. So that's one point. Patriots isn't front. I think it's very simple. Love is not a feeling. And so it's an act of the will. And so patriotism is a species of the virtue of piety, which is the reverence we owe for those to whom we owe debts we can never repay. So God, country, parents are the three traditional ones. So yeah, I understand. Emotionally, it's difficult to be thrilled with where our country is. You know, in the original sense of the United States, my country is California. And there's certainly a lot in California that is hard to be proud of and excited about and emotionally whatever. But it's still my potria, my country. And I hope and act and pray for its well-being. So I think if

2:34:52we sharply distinguish between how we emotionally feel about something and recognize love and piety, all virtue is an act of the will. I think that will be the starting point for clarifying it. Upon the rivers of Babylon. Yeah, yeah, that's your blog, right? No, strangers in a strange land. That's right. Check that out. Check out Jared Substacks, strangers in a strange land. All right, thank you. Take care. Hey, can Ryan Turner come on? I've always seen Ryan on X, but I want Ryan to come on too. I think since he shaved his beard, he's a little embarrassed. Oh, whatever. I'm just kidding. All right, another faceless Patrick. What's up, Patrick? Hey, I got some questions with regards to St. Joseph. I've been doing the consecration to St. Joseph a couple of years now. My main one is about the litany of the saints. Is St. Joseph is St. Michael greater than St. Joseph or is St. Joseph greater than St. Michael?

2:35:56And if St. Joseph is greater than Michael, should the his position in the litany of the saints be reflective of that? I don't know the answer to this. That's interesting. I don't either. I think traditionally St. Michael, I think the devotion to St. Joseph is mostly recent, which doesn't mean it's bad. I think it's great. We definitely need to appeal to St. Joseph more, but I think traditionally St. Michael was generally thought of as higher, but I'm not a hundred percent certain. So that's all I really know about it as well. Yeah, I couldn't give us a finger on that. All right. And then I guess my second question with regards to St. Joseph is if we are obviously Christ's king and then the Blessed Mother is the queen of heaven, would it be unbecoming to try and get the title of like Prince Regent for St. Joseph? And you can like pair that up with how Joseph the patriarch was like a Regent to Pharaoh

2:36:57during the Egyptian times? I'd have to think about it. I wouldn't want to be too flippant with assigning an appropriate title to St. Joseph, but we're not assigning an appropriate title. I don't know. I'm going to get to give an answer on that. He may even have a higher title than that. Oh, yeah. Why? I mean, I'd be apprehensive to call him king in heaven. Oh, yeah. No, Christ is king. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'd have to think about it. I'd have to think about it. All right. Yeah, that's, I mean, yeah, that's pretty much it. Other than that, Anthony, I've been watching to you a while now. And I'm coming for you coming at you from the south shore while in Ireland. So get out of here. Oh, dude, where do you go to miss? I'm at the triparish St. Mary's. You should come to either St. Matthews on a first or third Sunday because that's close enough to, you know? Okay. St. Matthews. First and third Sundays. I'm usually at St. Matthews and

2:37:58Dick's Hills. So if you if you could get there, that's that's what you'll catch me. The other I go to Glen Cove on the second, fourth and fifth. Okay. All right. All right. Hopefully, I hopefully I'm open to you, brother. Nice to meet you. All right. Thanks. Now we got the Yorker thing ever. Get out of here. JT. And then we got Andy after JT and he'll be the last one. What's up, JT? Hey, can you guys hear me? Yes. Wonderful. I'll just make this real quick since we're in a little long here, but I had two quick questions for you. How do you think the coming of the anti crisis going to actually tie in with our Lady of Fatima's promises about the conversion of Russia, the complete restoration, the triumph of the Immaculate Heart? How does that all jive with this end of times? Because if I'm remembering correctly, Bellarmine thought that the death of

2:38:59the anti-Christ would immediately precede the final judgment. So it seems like there would have to be sort of that sort of seems like we definitely can't be in the time of the anti-Christ then since none of the promises of our Lady have come to fruition yet. Josh and I have actually talked about a little bit because I thought there would be a restoration of Peter before the, because you see Peter, like the final act that Christ does is restore Peter, you know, feed my lambs, feed my lambs. I love you. So he does that three times at the end, but Josh pointed out to me that that's after the resurrection. So I don't know, like, Josh, you might want to expand on this a little bit. Yeah, well, my first point would be we always need to rank public revelation higher in terms of the weight we give to it. I'm very devoted to our Lady of Fatima, but just let's keep that

2:40:01hierarchy in order. The second point is I know a lot of Catholics, I disagree with them, so I think I'd agree more with your perspective that Fatima has not been fully worked out yet. I'd have to study it a bit more on this. I recall a vague mention of the kings of the east in the apocalypse, I think, or possibly Daniel. I'm forgetting which one coming against anti-Christ. So if I'm remembering that correctly, it perhaps that is part of what Russia does that once they're converted to the Catholic faith. And I tend to think that the triumph of the Immaculate Heart, I mean, our Lady is so fundamentally connected to our Lord that the triumph of the Immaculate Heart is not some separate sort of thing. It's his ultimate triumph. It's his returning and glory to judge the living and the dead. So that's my personal opinion. Again, I tend to focus more on the fathers and scripture and the theologians, but I think that would be a plausible way,

2:41:02could potentially all fit together. But yeah, I definitely think we have not, we very likely not gotten the full third secret. And I suspect it would shed a lot of light on where we are right now. Okay. If you have time, could I ask just the second real quick question here? It's Anthony. Do you put any stock, I guess, in this idea that there will be this great Catholic monarch who is going, I don't know why not way too late, way too late, not patristic in the in the patrol. And I could be wrong. I really do, I mean, I do have I do feel I have a firmer opinion on this topic than others, but I could be wrong. But I see one great apostasy. And I think that if this is not the great apostasy, Christian basically doesn't exist anymore. I don't know what else this is. And I do think there are elements of the great monarch prophecy, whatever it is. I've not seen it very well. Tested to the first time I've seen it brought up is in pseudo-mathodius,

2:42:06which we don't even know who he was. And I think it was in the 800s or 900s somewhere in there. It doesn't mean it's necessarily false, but that's mostly where it comes from. I'm concerned, it may actually lead to, you know, going with the wrong temporal ruler, you know, in the times, so no, I personally don't think I see a lot of people bring this stuff up. I personally don't put much stock in it. I've seen nothing in scripture about it, nothing in the fathers. If somebody can maybe maybe haven't read the best explanation. So I'm open to the problem. Yeah, I just think it's I think that's private revelation. And I think it's I think it's I think even lost in translation. And there were scenes from, you know, long ago. And I don't know, I don't put much stock in the great Catholic monarch returning, but I don't know. What do I know? But it'd be nice to be proven wrong. Yeah, I would love a good period of peace. And I would love for this to be like a minor chastisement. And we get another 50 years before any of the stuff we're talking about happens. So hope that answer your question. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much.

2:43:14All right. Thanks, man. All right. Andy, you are the last one up. And I have to get to sleep before 4 a.m. We go. What's happened? Let the record stay that Anthony is the one bringing this evening to an understanding understood. Are you guys able to hear me? Yes. Okay. Sweet. So I have one question for you too. It's honor to meet you guys. Really appreciate it. And it is it's a time period that I'm becoming slightly more interested in, but I haven't read anything about yet in Christian history. But would you guys say I assume I've some thoughts in my head, but I just want your guys opinion. Would you guys say the Renaissance was good or bad for the Catholic Church spiritually? I think I'll just you want to go for it. I have my opinions on the Renaissance, especially the art of the Renaissance. I think was like a return to like Greek paganism in their art, like the whole idea of having like nudity and stuff. I think it was I think they were just mired in obsessing with Roman Romanism. And I think it was a fall into decadence and debauchery.

2:44:22I think we look back on it with rose colored eyes, but at the time I'm not crazy about that period. Yeah. I mean, I'm not a scholar on it or anything, but from what I do know about it, I would tend to agree with that. I think there were a lot of occultic things that were going on as well. I think people were beginning to look at I think they called it natural philosophy back then. We'd call it science now as sort of a path to all knowledge, which is essentially what all occult societies believe is that you know, free masonry is an exact knowledge of the secrets of nature, capitalism and occultism, what up, what not. Yeah. Erasmus is a mixed bag, although he stayed faithful to the church. I think some of it was good. You know, there was an attempt to recover the sources and add fontase approach. That's what Christian humanism was. Let's get back to the fathers. Let's get back to the original languages of scripture. But of course, some people took that

2:45:22in a very different direction. But I'm, you know, St. Vincent Farer has mentioned, if I'm remembering correctly, I think he was kind of in the Renaissance period or like right before it and whatnot. So, so yeah, like many periods in church history and mixed bag, there were certainly some disturbing examples of papal behavior in the Renaissance period. So what's the source of, or what's the point of the question? What are you getting at? What have you concluded? I was just curious about the general vibe you guys had from it. I see it as I haven't read anything about it yet, but I see it kind of historically as like almost like an inflection point. Like, you know, things could have gotten really well, really bad in both directions. And it seems like we didn't get the worst possible outcome, but maybe not the best. And I recently, I recently bought a copy of Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks. So I'm interested in reading his stuff on philosophy and art. But I have seen that. So yeah, at the British at the British library, I saw them in the original 23. Yeah. Oh my God. I mean,

2:46:24some pages, that whole thing. Okay. Yeah. I saw the original Leonardo da Vinci notebook. Yeah, it was incredible. So I plan on reading those soon. But it's, it's a time period that I want to research more, but I have a thing is it's a really interesting time period to study. Like I like, I even though it's like the botched and something like I love the Borgia period. Like I don't know, it's an exciting time. I just do I love like when I went to Rome and I got to see like all of the who was it. I don't mean, I forgot his name, but yeah, we went to Rome in the tour. I was taking us around and she said, man, I can't remember. I'm so tired right now. I can't remember, but I was like uh, man, who's the, who's, Julie is the second. What's his, what's his birth name? He comes, they have to, comes, they have to Borgia, comes after Alexander. That's not true. I don't know either. Yeah. No. Yeah. I don't know. I think that whole that whole period, that whole time period

2:47:29is super interesting to me, just because the papacy, so the botched, but like they don't actually change any of the doctrine and Juliano De La Roe. De La Roe, right. Yeah. De La Roe, right. Like I just think, yeah, I mean, they're all trying to kill each other. It's pretty amazing. So even though like it could be a debauched period, it's still a super interesting time to learn about. Well, I also think it set up a lot of the foundations for what was really good in the Baroque period. You know, the Baroque really just developed further a lot of trends in Renaissance art, Renaissance music, polyphony. So there was a lot of good that came from it too, but, you know, that's, but I don't claim to know enough about it to give a super definitive. There were definitely some disturbing things as well. Yeah. It's a fun time period to study. That's for sure. So that's the, that's the general vibe I get from it too. And yeah, I don't know. I'm just excited to look into it in the future. So are you a convert or a cradle? I'm a cradle. Good boy. Love my cradle, Catholics, man. All right, Andy, it was nice to meet you, brother. Onwards. Every single one of them.

2:48:32I love the cradles that watch the show. All right, man. It was nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, Andy. All right, me and Josh are going to wrap this one up. Andrew, I know you'd pop it in the last minute, but I called it already. We did have a couple of super chats. So, uh, J.D.S. Bros. Have you looked into the appers of Garabendal? I'm not sure on those. I am not, I'm not big on the Garabendal whole, like, uh, illumination, a conscience thing. I mean, it's a whole show we could do. Josh, where do you differ? If you differ at all with Scott Hans, do you want interpreting the book of revelation? Like, it's, it's, it's going to allow. I'm not sure how much we differ. I think he tends to interpret it a bit more in a preterist fashion. I think the preterist fashion is part of a proper interpretation of it, but not the total picture. But I may be, Mr. Robert, I don't, I'm not super, super familiar with it. So, yeah. Scott Hans focuses on the supper of the lamb. It's a very liturgical book for him. He's describing, like, describing the mass, like the apocalypse is, yeah, the apocalypse is the mass, which you are going to the, to the end of time at the mass, you know, like you're kind of being

2:49:37transported to it. Um, and then we got, do dispensationalists who want to help build the third temple, envision that what in the easy 40, 48 will be built on the temple mount. Is that a seal? I think, I think they do because they, many, many non-catholic heretics, and I'm not mean that in a mean way, it's just they believe heretical things. Um, they tend to interpret a lot of these things, Anthony used the word before carnally, which is often a common patristic critique of the Jews in the ancient church that they were reading the kind of like the external, just merely literal view of the old. You want to see it spiritually? Yeah. Yeah. And so the way that many fathers interpret the temple in Ezekiel as as a type of the church. And so when you read, you know, books like St. Beads, The Tabernacle, he is another one on the temple, St. Jerome's commentary on Ezekiel, ancient Christian writer said it's up there. Um, you know, they interpret these things very, very typologically. They do use, uh, I hate to use the word because it sounds very negative

2:50:43and occultic kind of by default, but numerology, that is part of a lot of patristic, not in a cult way, but you know, the four gospels, the four significant 10, the 10 commandments, 12, the, you know, the set, you know, so for one example, where all the patristic, um, every, I've seen remarkable patristic unanimity is in interpreting the seven churches at the beginning of Apocalypse is seven representing the whole Catholic church. So it was seven ages of the church and you see the four gospels represent the four corners of the earth that the gospel has to go to, things like that. So, um, and this was from a comment from before people were talking about our Lady of Good Success and he, and they were saying Rome will become the seat of the Antichrist, but that could also mean the city of Rome. It doesn't necessarily mean the Roman church, you know, I have to be careful about that one because I think I don't know all the whole document or history. My understanding is that may have come from a part that was not approved or fully fed of that. So I don't, I don't quote it, you know, in the sort of certain sense that many Catholics do. Josh, this was really fun, man. I think everybody in the colon segment will, uh, we'll have to plan

2:51:47another one of these, maybe on a Friday night so we could even go longer if we want to. We could do another one where we just do Collins. We just started immediately with Collins and I mean, I'd like to do another one where we literally go through because I could have talked for four hours about the topic we started the show with and then I could also do three hours of just calling it. It really is cool that people are excited to come on and just talk with us. Yeah, no, it's really fun. And they were good questions. It made me fun with you, myself, maybe Gideon as well and have people ask the, because I think part of the reason why so many people are falling into, you know, I think they raised some legitimate questions or whatever, but, you know, pitfalls, perhaps on the Jewish issue is nobody's having nobody's willing to have a serious discussion with it because they're so afraid of being accused of being an anti-Semite. Yeah, look, I have Jewish friends in the state of Israel. I love, I pray for them. I have Middle Eastern friends, Arab friends, you know, whatever who I love and pray for. I mean, so I've got people on both sides of this war who are, Josh is in a group chat with Hamas. He's good. No, I did meet some members of Hamas back in the day for, we talked for four hours. So I have

2:52:47some very interesting experiences I'd love to share to maybe give some more human calling Gideon is just brilliant. So, but I think being willing to have these conversations is very important to to prevent people from going down dark corners. So yeah, yeah, I never like focusing on like the, the, the, the, where a wide jewelry stuff. I mean, it's important. I think it's, it's definitely an important aspect, but I'd rather stick to scripture and just, just seeing how the story plays out. That's way more interesting to me. I feel way more comfortable talking about it that way. And I think when guys start going down certain rows, they just look like, they, they, they look like the, uh, the caricature that they're looking to portray and they could just call us conspiracy theorists and stuff. And I'd rather not go down that road. So, um, Josh, thank you very much. Thank you. I got to go on, man. Thank you. This is fun. Yeah, this is very awesome. Everybody, I'm doing a show tomorrow night with Mike Pantile. So if you're still watching, me and Mike will be on tomorrow. We're going to discuss the whole Kyle situation and, uh,

2:53:50yes, see what we're going to go from there. Mike and I are going to be doing a conference. We're going to see if we can get some of the regulars on our show to come and attend. Hopefully, Josh will be one of those. I don't know, but we'll see how that works out. So, uh, we'll see you guys all tomorrow night. Thank you, Josh. You