Lindsay Clancy trial | Breaking down the jury's deadlock note and what's next

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1:03It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment my way. Visit VivGuardMyWay.com. That's v-y-v-g-a-r-t-myway.com. And talk to your doctor about VivGuard Hydrolo, brought to you by Argenics. Tonight, a surprising development on the fourth day of deliberations. I've got your question, and the question is, after many hours of deliberation, we are unable to come to unanimous decision. The jury, deadlocked, but the judge told them not to give up. I'm going to ask you to go back out and to continue your deliberations at this time. We go over what this means with our legal panel. Plus, what happens if this case ends in a mistrial? Council, would you do the trial again if it's a hunger? Absolutely. Commonwealth confidential. The Lindsay Clancy trial starts right now.

2:03The jury dismissed early without reaching a verdict, but they will be back tomorrow morning to resume deliberations. Good evening, everyone. I'm J.C. Montaghan. And I'm Glenn Jones. This, after the day started, with a big announcement, the panel of 12 was deadlocked. NBC Tens Mary Marcos joins us live outside. Plymouth Superior Court with more on the days developments. Good evening, Mary. Good evening. Legal experts tell me that jurors are probably polarized in the same way everyone else is when it comes to this case. But Clancy's attorney is optimistic that they kept talking. I'm going to ask you to go back out. Lindsay Clancy listening as the judge delivered a message to a jury that says it's stuck. Keep trying. But this will go back and forth for as long as the jury is quote unquote deadlocked. Legal experts say the jury is likely struggling with the question at the center of this case. Did she know what she was doing was wrong and could she control her actions? Kevin Reddington says Clancy was in the throes of postpartum psychosis when she strangled her three children. Prosecutors say the killings were calculated, deliberate and premeditated.

3:08In the first caron retrial that was a mistrial, they deliberated for five days, 27 hours. We are on day four with Lindsay Clancy. The jury of nine women and three men have spent 23 hours going through weeks of testimony for more than 80 witnesses and hundreds of exhibits. Making this idea. Yeah, just wait for the record. District Attorney Timothy Cruz came to court Tuesday, primary election day. Reddington was asked why? Why did people say that they're writing my name and against them? I don't know. I don't know why he did not reduce the charges to second degree. So the matter could be waived by jury and tried by a judge. If jurors tell the judge they're deadlocked again, legal experts say the next step could be what's known as the two e Rodriguez charge. A special instruction urging them to keep working toward a verdict. It's really to encourage them to come to consensus and to kind of not force a verdict by any stretch of the imagination, give them the confidence to kind of come forward, come to the table and come to some sort of conclusion.

4:13If the judge does declare a mistrial, the DA decides to retry the case. Clancy would likely be back in court within the year and Reddington said he would be representing her. Live in Bloomington, Mary Marcos, NBC 10 Boston. Mary, thank you. Joining us on our panel is NBC 10 Chief Legal Analyst, Michael Cohen, as well as our courtroom insider, Sue O'Connell. Thank you to both as always for being with us. You heard the jury was called into court this morning after letting the judge know they were deadlocked. So here's a little more of how judge Sullivan responded. Well, members of the jury, I've got your question and the question is, after many hours of deliberation, we are unable to come to unanimous decision. I brought you back out because I know that this was a long trial. All right, I know there were over 80 witnesses. There were over 300 exhibits. But because of that, I'm going to ask you to go back out, keeping in mind all the instructions that I gave you to go out and to continue your deliberations at this time.

5:17That came around 10, 15 this morning and the jury went back to deliberate for the rest of the day. If they should remain deadlocked tomorrow, they'll almost certainly get the two-year-old ruchus charge. Here's what it entails. It essentially gives the jury direction to break a stalemate. Jaws are instructed to listen to opposing views, but not compromise their own values. It also reminds them that it's their duty to decide this case, because no other set of jurors would be more capable. So, Michael, if, when we hear that charge from Judge Sullivan, probably tomorrow, I imagine in a way that's the last stand, because if that doesn't break the stalemate, nothing will. Correct. That is the very last charge that the court will give them to try and break up whatever, wherever the disagreement lies. But I do think, when we've thought for a while now, this case is so polarizing, and there are people who have deeply felt beliefs on both sides of this, that I'm not sure they're ever going to bridge this divide that they're at at this point.

6:18Hearing this jury is deadlocked, has us thinking back to some recent cases here in Massachusetts, the first being the two Karen retrials, the four of us covered both of them. During her first trial in 2024, the jury started deliberating on Tuesday, June 25th, that on Friday, June 28th, they deliberated for three hours before telling the judge they couldn't reach a unanimous decision. They were sent back to keep working three days later on Monday, July 1st, another note came. This time, about an hour after resuming deliberations, they were still stuck. So, Judge Beverly Cannoni gave the two-year-old jury guess instructions. Later that same day, the final note was really a white flag. The jury surrendered. The judge declared a mistrial. Okay, the following year, we're back for Reed's retrial. The jury was not deadlocked in this case. After four days of deliberations, Karen Reed was found not guilty on all charges except OUI. The other case, by the way, that comes to mind is the Emanuel Loaps trial. He was charged in the 2018 murders of Weymouth Police Sergeant Michael Chesna, and this innocent bystander Vera Adams.

7:19Loaps first trial was in 2023. The jury said they were deadlocked only once, but it quickly ended in a mistrial because one of the jurors refused to deliberate further after those six days. In his second trial, the jury hit a stalemate three times before ultimately reaching a verdict. In this afternoon, we spoke with the juror from the first Karen Reed trial. Ronald, a stance allow spoke to us about what happened after the jury was given the two-year Rodriguez instruction. So we came back again and kind of looked at the different pieces of evidence more closely and everybody listened to each other until ultimately we did come to that agreement that he was going to be or nine individuals agreed on one direction and three did not and those three kind of held out all the way to the end. There was no change, I will say, that the majority of the individuals who stayed in one direction stayed in one direction.

8:19Okay, so no change in that situation, but as we saw with the Loaps case, Michael and Sue, a jury can come to a unanimous agreement even after saying they were deadlocked. Michael, you already alluded to this. The complexities of this case combined with the fact that there are five options on that verdict slip. Is it even possible to think that 12 people in one room can come to a conclusion unanimously? Well, the evidence right now indicates probably not, but I think they're really struggling with the first half still. I'm not sure they're down to trying to differentiate between murder one, murder two and manslaughter. I think they're still stuck on the part is okay, if she's suffering from a mental disease, a defect didn't she know at the end of the day this was wrong and couldn't she obey the law? And that's where the part I think they're struggling at. And I'm not sure that with that question you'll ever see agreement, but like you point out there are times where people will not violate their conscience.

9:19But to be able to say okay, maybe I see your side and I'll go along with the way you see this case. And Sue, I heard some of this in your commentary earlier. After five weeks of testimony, several days now of jury deliberations, these folks have to be exhausted. And the regurer told me that when you go home, you can't turn your brain off. You're still thinking about it, you're losing sleep, it gets very, very exhausted. And you can't talk to anybody about it. You can't express it. It's a very, it's a completely odd and bizarre situation for them to be in and remember this is a horrendous case, right? These are autopsy photos of these three children, the 9-1-1 call. And then they sit and listen, they can't talk during the trial. Then they go have lunch or whatever, they can't talk to each other about the trial. As you said, then they go home and they can't talk about the trial. They can't read about the trial. They have to try and avoid all of this coverage to some to the best degree that they can. And then all of a sudden, we're waiting for them. They have had a chance to talk about it for five weeks. And then they go into this room and they have to come to some agreement around it and be negotiated through all of this evidence.

10:26I mean, you know, we are underselling the pharmaceutical evidence sets here, the medical evidence, and psychiatry and psychology are soft sciences. We have these experts who are the top of their field who disagree about things and we're asking these regular people to come to a conclusion when experts have disagreed. So it's, it's, it's, they looked exhausted today. And we all feel for them just walking, having them walk in that this is such a burden that we're putting on normal, normal citizens. And we have to remember they are heroes in this process. That's a really good description of the, the weight of it all really. Yeah. Well, okay, let's skip ahead and say should they find that Lindsey Clancy is criminally responsible, they'll then have to decide if it's first degree murder, second degree murder, manslaughter. Michael, manslaughter is what trips me up, at least legally speaking, because that is when it is reckless act or killing in a moment of passion. That doesn't fit this case. I don't understand how can you find her guilty of manslaughter.

11:27Well, and, and you're right to be troubled by it because manslaughter generally is an unintentional killing and every piece of the government's case has been it's an intentional killing and a premeditated killing, which would bring it within murder one. But if it's an intentional killing, then why aren't we just simply looking at murder one and murder two? The, the reason likely is is that the defendant wanted that as a potential compromise verdict. Just like Reed wanted a driving under the influence instruction. So if the jury didn't want to let her off free, they could look at that as a compromise. Here, the reason is it doesn't necessarily fit the charges or the elements of this crime at all, but we're giving it as a softer landing and manslaughter is still a serious offense, but it's, it's far better to have a two and a half year potential sentence where she's already served that time. And it gives the court a lot more latitude as to what can happen to her after this. But they can assign blame to somebody. They can say these justice for these three kids comes in this form from the woman who's before us because the medical profession is not here. That'll be in the civil suit.

12:35All right. There's a viewer question on this subject from Kelly in South Carolina. She wants to know if the jury chooses manslaughter. Can the judge decide to keep her hospitalized instead of sending her to jail or prison? Michael, does he have that discretion? No, she would fall within then the Bureau of Department of Corrections and they would determine where she would be placed in what treatment facilities they would have for her. We do have an awful lot of people, the most of our people in prison are suffering from some type of mental illness, including addiction. So there are treatment facilities there. Are they the best treatment facilities that we could should have one of the sheriff's aunt to come before us and talk to us about that? I think that's a good idea. All right. Don't go anywhere. Please. We're back in a few minutes with talks about the possibility of a retrial. But first as we always do, we want to take a moment to remember the young victims in this case. Korra Dawson and Kellyn Clancy. Come on, we'll confidential will be right back.

13:35Hey, this is Will Arnett host of Smartless. Smartless is a podcast with myself and Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman where each week one of us reveals a mystery guest to the other two. We dive deep with guests that you love like Bill Hader, Selena Gomez, Jennifer Aniston, David Beckham, Kristen Stewart and tons more. So join us for a genuinely improvised and authentic conversation filled with laughter and newfound knowledge to feed the smartless mind. Listen to smartless now on the serious XM app. Download it today with the Vivgarti Trulow, Escartiga Mod Alpha and Tihilurana Days QVFC, pre-filled syringe. Self injection is in your hands. It's your treatment routine. You set the time and same day each week. Take the pre-filled syringe with you on vacation or have it handy for cozy stay-cations. For more information, visit live vividly.com. That's L-I-V-E-V-Y-V-I-D-L-Y.com. Brought to you by our Genics.

14:41When you're busy and trying to lose weight, the last thing you want is another complicated routine. That's why I love grooms. One convenient daily pack gives me essential nutrients and a low calorie gummy that fits into my day in seconds. Fills the nutrition gap when eating less. It's my GOP1's new bestie. Save up to 52% off with code podcast at grooms.co. That's code podcast at GRUNS.co. What would 100 be for Lindsay? Try it again. Tim Cruz will never drop it. That's for sure. How would she be in trial again? How would she be in court? Emotionally. How would her affect her? How would you be? Councilor, would you do the trial again if it's a Hungary? Absolutely. That was Clancy's defense attorney Kevin Rennington walking into court today giving that direct response about retrying this case or back now with Michael and Sue. So, Michael, if there is a retrial, Rennington is clearly on board. But it's an if because it goes to DA Tim Cruz to actually do the second trial.

15:47We were talking about this in the commercial break. If Rennington wanted to put for a change of venue in the second trial, do you think that would get some attention? Given how much attention is on the case? Where can you go? I hear there's the media is out in Western mass as well, right? And there's nowhere that hasn't at this point been exposed to this case within Massachusetts and even internationally. So, I don't think you're going to stand a better chance getting a taint-free jury. And I do worry a lot about that because I do think that to some extent the heavy media influence the televising of the trial daily affected the second read case as well. So, the court has to be very concerned whenever the case gets retried and I assume it will be retried as well. Speaking of the recase, Sue, I know people still stop you every once in a while and talk about that one. The Karen recase got a lot of people paying attention to who prosecutes cases on behalf of the Commonwealth. Today just happens to be primary day in Massachusetts and a number of DA offices are on the ballot. That includes Plymouth County District Attorney Tim Cruz. He currently holds the seat. He is running unopposed in the Republican primary.

16:52So, we know from the retrial, DA Michael Morrissey took a lot of heat from the public for trying that case twice. He ultimately lost. He decided not to run again. I'm sure at least partly or if not wholly because of the recase. So, what happens if Cruz wins at the polls tonight? He will. But loses in court this week. Yeah, I mean, I think that this is again a slow evolution of people understanding how much power your district attorney has. So, the most powerful people in your legal life or judge, DA and the police officer on the beat. They all decide how are you going to get charged and what's going to happen to you. District attorneys are elected and if you don't like what they're doing and how they're spending your tax dollars. Remember, there are many approaches to getting someone held accountable for a crime that you believe they committed. Is a big trial like this the best use of your tax dollars? I don't know. That's up to the people of Massachusetts to decide.

17:54People in North of County certainly decided that trying to carry twice when it was clear they didn't know the manner of death for John O'Keefe or if her car hit him in the first place. And experts like me who don't have a law degree, you know, say well, had it been a, you know, a manslaughter offer. She might have pled out and none of this would have happened. And of course, there's other cases moving through the Plymouth County. So, yes, he's going to get reelected definitely in the general election because he's unopposed. But it also says to people, look what happened in North of County. A number of candidates were running in the primary today. There are a number of people on the Democratic and the Republican ballot. So, if you think that things are going wrong, if you think that your tax dollars are being spent wrong, if you think there are lots of people in jail who shouldn't be in jail and a lot of people who plead out that probably shouldn't be pleading out, then get involved and get people to run for office. We'll talk more about the Norfolk County DA's race. It's pretty crowded as Suja said this year because, again, Morse is not running.

18:54There are seven candidates total. We couldn't fit them all into one graphics. It's damaged the reputation of the district attorney's office. It certainly, as Sue points out, should have received a lot more attention from the voters and from people when they think about trusting their folks and law enforcement. Let's get to one more here. Let's not forget about the race in Suffolk County. Kevin Hayden has recently come under fire for how he's been managing the case involving Boston police officer Nicholas O'Malley. A Malley was charged with manslaughter earlier this year after he shot an alleged carjacking suspect who later died.

19:56Hayden is running against Rachel Rollins, who once served in the same role before she moved on to become the US Attorney for Massachusetts. She was later the subject of ethics violations and resigned from that job. Linda Champion is also running for DA. So, Sue, even though it feels like the Norfolk County race is the biggest spotlight race, does it have a residual effect where people in every county are kind of paying attention to who's my DA? Well, in my neighborhood, this is my neighborhood and that shooting happened just blocks from my apartment and I can tell you that everybody, and the polls were almost closed so I can say that everybody was upset that Hayden didn't release the body camp tape, right? The police union, I've never seen so many people unified with the police union and the community activists because either releasing it or doing what Commissioner Bill Evans used to do, bring people into show it to them. So, yes, your district attorney is a very important office. This primary is over, but there's a general election pay attention.

20:57All right, Michael, Sue, thank you both so much for joining us tonight. Thank you as well for tuning in and stay with us for continuing coverage of jury deliberations. As soon as we get a verdict or a word of a mistrial, we'll bring that to you live on air online, our app as well or wherever you stream your news. And if you have any questions, we want to hear from you. You can submit them by email to Commonwealth.confidential at NBCUNI.com. Real talent is defined by what people can do, not where they learn to do it. So by stopping at the education section of a resume, you might throw away the perfect chiro. Skills First Hiring helps you see talent others miss, like more than 70 million stars, skilled through alternative routes. Let their story unfold and gain a competitive advantage because hiring managers who start with skills are 60% more likely to find a successful hire. Higher skills first learn why at tetherpapercealing.org brought to you by opportunity at work and the ad council.