Lindsay Clancy - Part 2: The Trial | #467

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1:00It's packed with tech, like 3D surround cameras, clear sight ground, and rear views, driver assist features, and an intuitive infotainment system. With three models, the Defender 90, 110, and 130, there's a defender for every kind of adventure, from city streets to remote trails. This is a vehicle that, like you, is capable of great things. Explore the full Defender lineup at Land Rover USA.com. Hello, and welcome to part two of our coverage of the Lindsay Clancy case. Obviously, go listen to part one. Before we do this, this is the final episode. Today we'll be delving into the trial, and we have a lot to cover. 21 days of intense testimony. And often, device of questioning dulled out by a 75-year-old bulldog in the form of defence attorney, Kevin Reddington.

2:02And a sad to say, lackluster assistant district attorney, Shannon Buckingham. Opening statements in the Lindsay Clancy trial kicked off on August the 10th, 2026, and they were all really important. Cases can be one or lost with opening statements. Your job as a prosecutor or a defence attorney, it's to lay out your case. How you're going to prove it. And what your experts and your witnesses are going to show throughout the trial. The Commonwealth, as you'd expected, that Lindsay Clancy had killed her three children. Quora, Dawson and Callan, deliberately and meticulously, saying that it was a calculated act, not an uncontrolled psychotic episode. They claimed that Lindsay Clancy created a window of time to carry out the killings by sending Patrick Clancy out of the house on the takeaway and medicine errand, so that she could kill the children without him being there to stop her. As for the motive, they accused Lindsay Clancy of being hyper-controlling,

3:02saying that she wanted everything and everyone in her life to follow her schedules and plans. But motherhood was becoming increasingly overwhelming and hard for her to control. So she made the decision to escape it. According to the Commonwealth, Lindsay may have been suffering with her mental health, but even though she had a huge amount of access to care, she tried short cuts, she lied to her doctors, she manipulated the system, blip-flopped on medication, and disengaged from care when she didn't like the plan. They're saying that Lindsay just wanted a quick fix. And after four months, she just didn't want to try anymore. So she decided that she wanted to kill herself, but that she had to kill her kids as well, because no one else could be trusted to care for them. The state questioned her claims of a break with reality by pointing out that the way in which the killings were carried out required a succession of physical acts. It wasn't just one single reflexive or instantaneous action. Lindsay Clancy had to strangle each child separately.

4:05Also, the voice that she claimed to hear on the day of the murders for the first and only time did not give Lindsay any detailed instructions. On, for example, how to kill the kids, where to kill them, were ordered to kill them or how to kill herself. Yet, as we'll see, Lindsay Clancy claims that she felt like a puppet. But the Commonwealth says if she wasn't being told what to do by this voice, well, then she was making those decisions herself, which according to them, shows sequential decision-making, normal cognitive functioning, and problem solving. And they round all this off by saying that she also absolutely appreciated the wrongfulness of her actions because she tried to kill herself to escape the consequences. And okay, fair enough, sure. And if they can back up all those things with evidence and experts, all right. What was weird in this trial is that throughout the process, the Commonwealth kept changing their theory. They would later suggest that Lindsay Clancy wasn't even really mentally ill

5:06and that she didn't really want to die. The suicide attempt had been fake. She had just decided that she didn't want to be a mother anymore and she wanted shot of her kids. And that goes against their own opening statement, not to mention all of the evidence. And they would also simultaneously highlight contradictory evidence or put on their own experts who would also refute their new claims. Very, very strange. And perhaps we're jumping the gun here, but honestly, the Commonwealth did a pretty shocking job of prosecuting this case. They did not seem to have one concise theory as to what happened. And that's bad bad news for the state. Turu has been a real soldier and watched every day of the trial and has still ended up confused as to what exactly their theory was about why Lindsay Clancy killed her own children. Yeah, I feel like until maybe the last two commonwealth witnesses

6:08and then their closing statement, I was really confused about what they were even saying had happened. It was very, very bizarre. And look, the defense can throw around as many theories as they want. They can say whatever their job is to just poke holes in the state's case. That's what I was just going to say. Like it's kind of upside down for the way they've got the balance. It really, really is. The defense like, you know, if they're going to point fingers another person, obviously, need to back it up with some evidence. But really, they can just be like, how do you know that? How do you know that? What about this? This could have happened. They can say anything. But the prosecution must have one clear theory, one clear narrative that they then spend the entire trial hammering home to the jury. But that isn't what happened here. And it's very, very confusing. But we're just going to have to deal with it as we go through the trial. So the defense's opening statement was much more concise. Kevin Reddington stated that Lindsay loved her children deeply and that she killed them when she was in the grips

7:08of severe postpartum psychosis and an extreme mental breakdown. Reddington emphasized how this situation had been exacerbated by the cocktail of drugs that Lindsay had been prescribed in the months leading up to her killings. Drugs which had negatively reacted with an underlying undiagnosed bipolar condition and induced extreme homicidal and suicidal ideation, leaving her unable, very crucially, to conform her behavior to the law. Then we got into the meat of the trial itself with the Commonwealth calling Patrick Clancy of all people, as their first witness. If Patrick had been a state's witness and there to throw Lindsay under the bus by telling everyone what an evil horrible mother she was, then that would make sense. But Patrick Clancy is a defense witness. He's on Lindsay's side and pretty hostile towards the Commonwealth. And that's because the Commonwealth were also staggeringly unsympathetic to Patrick Clancy. They're so horrible to him. They're so horrible to him and I think it's because they're like,

8:10you're on the defense side, fuck you. That's the attitude. Has he not suffered enough? Fuck me. They never once tell Patrick that they're sorry for his loss. They don't say they know this has all been so hard for him, but we have to ask you, etc. They don't handle him at all, even though they knew that they're going to have to play the 911 call and that the jury were going to be no doubt moved by it. And the Commonwealth do this to all of the victims that they call as witnesses, including the rest of Patrick and Lindsay's families. It's just not a particularly good look and I don't really know if I think it would have played with the jury particularly well. On the stand, Patrick testified for five hours, but we are going to focus in this episode on the key issues that came up. First off, the Commonwealth question Patrick on disclosures that Lindsay made him about suicidal ideation and thoughts of harming the children. Around December 6, 2022, did Lindsay tell you she was starting a new medication?

9:12I don't remember specifically. Is it that you don't remember the date or you don't remember her starting a new medication? I'm not sure. Do you remember Lindsay telling you at some point she was starting the medication's seroqual? Yes. Do you remember around what time frame that was? I thought it was before December 6. And you recall how she was physically after starting the seroqual? Awful. How so? That was really where her big spiral started. She started to lose a lot of weight and she became very depressed and she was having a really hard time.

10:12And did she describe to you some thoughts or feelings that she was having at that time? Yes, she started to say she was suicidal. And was that in December of 2022? I think so, yeah. And when she told you she was suicidal, did you ask her if she had a plan on how to kill herself? Yes. And what was her response? She said no. And did she ever mention a specific way or plan she had to kill herself to you? No. And at some point in time, did she tell you that this was the first time she had had suicidal thoughts? I don't know if she mentioned it was the first time or not. I just remember her saying she had them. Had you ever heard her say that to you before that she was having suicidal thoughts? No.

11:14Did you own at that time a surface pro, a type of tablet that works as a laptop? Yeah. And who had access to that laptop? We both did. You and Lindsay? Yeah. And going back to August 22nd, 2022, did you click on a link on that surface pro that was titled Methods of Suicide? Not that I recall. And August 22nd, 2022, that was before Lindsay had been on any medications as far as you know, correct? Correct. Going back to December, she's told you that she's having these thoughts. What's your reaction when she tells you that she's having these suicidal thoughts? I just wanted to support her. I asked those questions back to her and

12:15you heard her mother was coming up pretty regularly anyways. So we let them know and we just try to be supportive. Did she also tell you at that time at the beginning of December that she was having some other intrusive thoughts? Yeah. Is that how she described them or how you described them? Intrusive thoughts. I would say both. When she told you that she was having intrusive thoughts, did you ask her what they were? Yeah. And what was her response? She described thoughts of hurting the kids or having, or them having some sort of ailment. So she was very worried that Korra had, whenever she had a stomach ache, she became overly worried that she was, you know, like, had like a liver problem or something much more dramatic than it was. Okay. But going back to that first part, she said she had thoughts of harming the kids. Is that correct?

13:15Yeah. And did she tell you whether or not she had specific thoughts of how she would harm the kids? No. And she didn't describe that as hearing this external voice telling her to harm the kids, correct? Correct. She told you she was having intrusive thoughts herself of harming the children, correct? Correct. And did you ask her how she was going to harm the kids? I am asking it in that way. It was the same thing. I said, do you have a plan and is it disturbing to you? And she said no. And then she said yes. And let me go back for a minute there. You said that she do you have a plan and she said no. What was the second question, second part of the question? Is it, do you find it disturbing? And she said yes. And she described it as really the way she was describing it as something that might happen to the kids. There was more something might happen than she might do something.

14:18Is that correct? Yeah. And did she tell you how long she had those thoughts for? She can give a duration. And how many times did she tell you this that she had thoughts of harming the kids? A couple times. And was that a couple times over the course of a night or two in December? Yeah. And as a result of her telling you this that she had thoughts of harming the kids, what did you do? Yeah. Her parents came up and I think I asked her at some point, do you feel like you need to be kept away from them and she said no. And then I was very confusing because a minute later she was making them lunch or playing with them or getting ready for bed or whatever it was. So it was confusing in that she wasn't physically harming them at the time but was having,

15:20had these thoughts, is that what you were saying? Right, I never saw lensi harming the kids. You know those pieces in your wardrobe that you find yourself reaching for over and over again? The sweater that somehow works with everything, the jeans you know will always fit just right. Or the bag you carry everywhere. Well, they can be hard to find. So to save you endlessly ordering, trying on and returning, you need a place for reliable, good quality staples that you know will go the distance. For me, that place is quince. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian Kashmir, organic cotton and washable silk. The designs are timeless, thoughtfully crafted and made to be worn again and again. And it's affordable too. Their 100% Mongolian Kashmir sweaters start at just $50, giving you the softness and quality that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. Find the full pieces you'll reach for most at quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash red handed.

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19:36Lindsay had disclosed a Patrick and her mother in December 2022. A month before the murders that she had had fears of harming the children we talked about this in last week's episode. And again, one of the question is why did he then leave the kids with her after this? But the point is she was getting treatment. And yes, she was up and down, but as we'll see in the period right before the murders, everyone thought Lindsay was getting better. And the day itself, the day of the murders, Patrick described as Lindsay's best day in a long time. She'd taken Corridor to the doctor, played with the kids, had a nice day. She seemed good. But according to Lindsay's statements from the civil suit, she had been having intrusive and non-stop thoughts of suicide that day. So is it conceivable that Lindsay Clancy had made up her mind about what she was going to do that evening? And that's why she seemed to Patrick to be having her best day in a long time.

20:42Maybe, but Lindsay Clancy refutes the idea that she Googled the distances from their house to the CVS and the 3v in order to have Patrick out of the house for as long as possible, as the Commonwealth claimed. And Lindsay says that she Googled the distances because she didn't want to be alone for too long. And yes, 3v wasn't that far away, just a 10-15 minute drive. But there were closer pharmacies and restaurants in Ducksbury, and she's fucking terrified. Yeah, I think it's so weird. I think the whole thing of why she sent Patrick on that errand to those specific places. Again, comes back to what we said last week. You can kind of either way. You can look at it either way. You can look at why she sent him there when there's closer pharmacies and restaurants in Ducksbury if she's so scared of being alone. But like, oh, well, she sent him there because she wanted to kill the kids and herself and she wanted that time alone. But I'm like, why wouldn't you send him somewhere further? Like, why only a 10-minute, 15-minute drive? That's not very far. So it's kind of like, it doesn't really make sense in either scenario.

21:45But yeah, back on the stand, Patrick then relives coming home that night. He describes how, like we told you last week, he immediately knew something was wrong. It was too quiet. He tried phoning Lindsay to see where she was, and then he went upstairs and saw blood in the master bedroom. There's only, I thought, the Commonwealth Challenge Patrick with crime scene photos of the room, saying, well, there isn't that much blood, is there? And I'm like, what? Basically, implying that the cuts to Lindsay's body were not actually that deep. And basically now starting their odd suggestion that it had been a fake suicide attempt, to garner sympathy or to later argue insanity. And look, yes, the EMTs did testify that, basically, they didn't think Lindsay Clancy's wounds were life-threatening and also that the cuts to her wrists and neck were barely bleeding by the time that they arrived, you know, not long after they'd been called. And they also said that none of the wounds even needed stitches and the ones

22:45on her neck didn't even need sutures. But also, like, I don't know, does that really mean that she didn't do it? And yes, medical professionals at trial would also describe the wounds as being superficial, which I don't think helped. But superficial is a medical term. Yeah, so it's just just a different... It's a medical term. And basically what they mean by that is that the cuts didn't go deeper than the subcutaneous tissue. They don't mean that they're like frivolous. So yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean any of this proves that it wasn't a real suicide attempt. I absolutely believe it was a real suicide attempt, as did basically all of the witnesses for the Commonwealth and the defence. But it was a weird move on the Commonwealth part to even suggest this. Like, I don't get why they do this. Like, in any scenario where a person is taking a knife to themselves, that person is on well. The end. And Lindsay Clancy also sat in the courtroom in a wheelchair with two nurses to help her because she is permanently paralysed. But again, the Commonwealth state that Lindsay did not jump out of the window head first,

23:48as had been alleged by the defence. But rather, she'd climbed out and dropped, arguing that there was some blood on the side of the house. Therefore, she must have sort of shifted down. They explained that Lindsay had just miscalculated the situation and landed awkwardly on the frozen ground and ended up paralysed by accident. And that is challenged later on by medical experts and refuted by the Commonwealth's own experts. But the Commonwealth still oddly went hard on Lindsay for parts of the trial, saying that she faked it all. And we'll have more to say on this when we get to the Toxology report. Yeah, again, we're thinking to ask the jury to believe when she sat there in a wheelchair, paralysed, like to say that she just fucked it up, basically. But let's go back to Patrick's testimony and the night of the killings. How long approximately? And I know you weren't looking at your watch or anything like that, but can you estimate for us how long it took for first responders to arrive? Four or five minutes. Okay. And during that time, are you continuing to

24:55try to talk to Lindsay? Yeah. Is she responding? She's in and out of consciousness. Was she breathing on her own? I believe so. Okay. And you're communicating information to the nine-one operators. Are they giving you advice on how to deal with the situation as it progresses? Yeah. Once emergency personnel arrive, what do you do? I immediately got up and ran to the basement. Okay. And do you still have the phone on you? You're still on the nine-one call? Yeah, I didn't realize it at the time. I did. Okay. And I'm having a look at this model here on the screen. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of the setup of your basement? Yeah. Okay. If you can just describe the rooms for us, what the purpose of each room was? So the room in the back left is my

25:57office. The room with the black rubber mat is the gym. And then there's the living room to the right of that. And then the back right is just an area of the living room. And then there's a bathroom next to that. So when you come down those stairs that night, which direction did you go? Immediately went left. And when you went left, what did you see? So, Kora. And how did she look? She had a band around her neck. And was that an exercise band? Yeah. And do you recall whether she was what position she was in, whether face up or face down? She's face down. And when you saw her in that condition, what did you do? I immediately ran over and tried to take the band off. Were you able to get the band off? Yeah. And do you recall how you got the band off? I think I untied it. And when you

27:02say untied it, was it in a knot that you had to put everything down and un-naughted or how was it tied? I'm not sure if fully remembered. Do you recall describing it previously as when you initially tie your shoes but then don't do the bow? Yeah, that sounds right. And was she responsive? No. And what did you see or do next? I saw Kallen. And where was he? He was next to her. And how did he appear? He had a band around his neck. Sorry. He had a band around his neck. And did you remove that as well? Yeah. And do you recall what position he was in? Same as Kora. Here Patrick describes waiting with Lindsay until the EMTs arrived and then running to the basement. Then you just heard that in that clip, Patrick describes going into the basement. And there was a lot of questioning by the Commonwealth as to the positioning

28:05of the children's bodies and how the bands were tied around their neck. And that becomes very important later. Because Patrick was the first person to see the kids. He moved their bodies and he undid the bands because they're still alive. And the way they were positioned untied up speaks to Lindsay Clancy's method of killing. Note that here, and this is very important in the clip that you guys just heard. Please remember this. Patrick says that he can't really remember how the bands were tied around the children's neck. But he did initially say in like his, his like first reports on this that they had been tied around the children's neck like a shoelace without the boat. So tied tightly and secure. And the Commonwealth here remind him, they said you said this, you said this, do you remember now? And he's like, oh yeah, no, yes, I did say that. What's odd is that later in the trial, the Commonwealth will say something totally different, totally different. Later they will claim that the bands were just wrapped around the children's neck, not tied. Why the change of story? Well, it's the bolster of the idea that if the bands were tied up,

29:10Lindsay wouldn't have had to stay with the kids. She wouldn't have had to stay there choking them one by one. If they're just wrapped around their neck, then it's a better story for the Commonwealth because they can say she was there. She wasn't psychotic. She was pulling the band she would have had to look each child in the eye for three to five minutes while she choked the life out of them. And I think that also extends the kill time it would have taken, making the jury feel like it was implausible that she didn't snap out of whatever psychotic state she was in or just generally stop and come to her senses. Whereas if it's tied, she could have just tied them walked away. It also adds to the brutality of the murders, if you think that Lindsay Clancy stared into the eyes of each of her children and manually strangled them to death one by one. But here, the way Patrick describes the bands as being tied. As Rue said, it could be plausible that Lindsay Clancy tied the bands around each child's neck and then just walked away. After Patrick's testimony was done, he left. He clearly just wanted to get out of the court room before the 911 call was played and you can't really blame them. Although millions of people are.

30:15And when the call was played in court, Kevin Reddington is seen holding Lindsay's hand as she sobs uncontrollably. And a lot has been made online about whether Lindsay's fake crying or not. Again, maybe it doesn't look or sound fake. But even if it was real, it doesn't mean that she's guilty of murder. Is this the bit where she shouts I can't do it? That comes later. Okay. That I do think she's crying. I do think she's crying. I don't think she's not crying, but I'm also like, that doesn't prove anything one way or another. If she's crying, it wouldn't mean that she was or wasn't guilty. And if she is crying, it doesn't prove she is or isn't guilty. Do you know what I mean? It just proves that it's a horrible moment, like in remembering what happened. And many of the jury also were bawling by the end of the 911 call. The judge actually gave them all an hour break to recover from it. After Patrick, the Commonwealth spent the next day calling up 10 of first responders from the scene. And this was smart. You basically had like a series of big

31:19grizzled police officers and EMTs sobbing in the stand, like some of them literally breaking down crying and describing how some of them were even sick on the scene because of what they found in the basement. It was a bad, bad day for the defence because it really brought home to the jury the brutality of the murders. A rough day for Lindsay and for her attorney, Kevin Reddington, who kept it light when cross examining the first responders, sometimes simply just thanking them for their service. And that makes sense. The last thing Big Red wanted to do was dwell on these witnesses talking about how horrific the murders were. Back with the Commonwealth, and their theory that Lindsay Clancy Suicide attempt was not as genuine as it may have seemed. And this is when they called up a forensic toxicologist. And look, let's listen to a clip and then we'll talk about it. Dr. Brower, before we broke, we mentioned the term therapeutic concentration. You familiar with

32:21that term? Correct. What does that mean? It's the typical concentration that one would achieve when they're taking the medication or drug as indicated by their prescriber. And are you familiar with toxic concentrations or suicidal concentrations? I am. And what does that mean? Those are concentrations that can lead to adverse events and potentially death. Now in relation to the four substances that were tested at the NMS laboratory, you identified the levels for each of the four substances, were any of those levels, excuse me, concentration levels considered within therapeutic concentration? It would all be in what I would say, therapeutic concentration, except maybe the Cateapine, which is slightly elevated. Okay. And in your experience as a forensic toxicologist, have you had the occasion to review cases post-mortem cases in which Suicide was a mechanism

33:23of death where the person consumed medication? Absolutely, yes. And so that level of the Cateapine. Cateapine. At the 800 nanograms per milliliter, would that have been in that toxic or suicidal level? No, ma'am. Would you generally expect to see that a significantly greater in a suicide case? Typically, Cateapines and suicide cases might be in the close to 10,000 nanograms per milliliter. Usually people take handfuls of pills when they're trying to harm themselves and take their own life, and this is not consistent with that. That's quite compelling. That is quite compelling, because according to those who interviewed Lindsay Clancy, she claimed that she took a large number of pills before she threw herself out the window. Right? She says that I cut my wrists, I took the pills, and then I jumped out of the window. That's what she said. That's like, you know, we're taking the suicide attempt very seriously. She has vague on how many she actually took. It doesn't seem

34:26like she really remembers. She also is quite vague on how she took them. We'll talk about that later. But what's interesting that this forensic toxicologist is saying is that her blood that was drawn from her in the hospital as soon as she was taken there the night that she did this, yes, showed seven different medications. But all of them had been prescribed, and all of them were in her system only at therapeutic levels, which means within the range of what you would expect somebody who was taking that medication as prescribed, only one of them was slightly elevated. Could certain drugs in certain people even at low levels still cause adverse side effects like suicide ideation and mania? Yes, absolutely. So the toxicology report doesn't really undermine the idea that the drugs were exacerbating Lindsay's condition. It literally says that on the back of the packet of some of them, especially when there was an underlying undiagnosed medical condition such as bipolar 2, but it is strange that the levels of the drugs in a person's system wouldn't be elevated beyond therapeutic levels in a suicide attempt where they claim to have taken pills

35:30to end their life. Yes, I get it. Taking an overdose of prescription things is quite a common method. It is not a quick one. I think that is something that it doesn't necessarily get mentioned. And I think it seems, yes, I accept it is strange they're on elevated levels, but her tolerance was probably really fucking high. Not that I think that necessarily can't stop. What? She's very clearly trying things and they're not working. So she throws herself out of the window. Like, I think that's that. And she's on a time limit because she knows Patrick is coming back and he's not actually gone that far away. So I don't know. Are the reason I bring up the Tocque-Oscology Prize? I do think it's interesting, but I also think it's where the common wealth get this idea that it wasn't a real suicide attempt because looking at somebody's paralysed, who's jumped out of a window and being like, well, looking at someone who's got cuts on their arms and neck but being like, oh, they're not that deep. I think this is what led them down that

36:34weird path to seeing it wasn't a real suicide attempt. And just to be clear, I do think it was a real suicide attempt. I really, really do. This is just like an interesting bit of the story. So yeah, like I said, I don't think it was fake, but the prosecution were going to make that claim. And if they were going to make that claim, I think it would have made more sense for them to argue that she was very thorough in killing her children. She did that ruthlessly, efficiently, very, very quickly with three children, but she was quite bad at killing herself. And seemingly didn't take enough pills or in the Tocque-Oscology report. And she ended up paralysed from the fall, but what a reasonable person really think they would die if they jumped two stories and some of the cuts to her wrists were deep, but apparently not that deep. And some medical professionals will testify to that, including the EMTs. They were also, and people appointed this out the wrong way around, would a nurse not know that she need to cut herself, the other way if she was serious about killing herself, all the things that people have said. There were also hesitation marks. Does that suggest that she wasn't psychotic at this point, because she was scared to cut herself? Again, not necessarily things that I think proved that it

37:35wasn't a real suicide, but they don't say a lot of this stuff. They just sort of like, pussy foot around it. And like, and not making a clear argument? It's shit. You know, none of these things are coming from the mind of a rational person. And I think it's being analysed of like, okay, well, what a sound, a person of sound mind would do XYZ. It doesn't matter, because that's not what she is. Exactly. And not much of this was delved into in too much detail. And the Commonwealth don't really just come right out and say it. They're just pussy foot around dropping hints and making little suggestions, but nothing is clear cut, which again, it's much more normal for a defence to be doing that, not the prosecution, because they just need to plant the seed of doubt. That's not what they're supposed to be doing. Yes, that's what the Commonwealth is trying to do. That's exactly what they're trying to just be like, oh, maybe. And I'm like, that's not your moment to have a really clear narrative. And they also backtrack all together on their suicide fake angle anyway, but that's not yet.

38:41For now, they double down on it. They suggest that Lindsey Clancy was faking even having a mental health disorder in the first place, which very odd again, of them just refusing to proceed to any sort of mental illness at all. Even if Lindsey Clancy was suffering with a mental disease or defect as the law states, that's only the first condition for not guilty by reason of insanity, or in Massachusetts, not criminally responsible. They're doing so much and none of it is, there's no point to any of it. No, they don't need to do this. I don't get why they're doing it. It makes it so much more confusing for the jury. They just don't need to show that Lindsey wasn't mentally ill. And given the history of her treatment and presentation to experts in the months before the murders, it really does feel like a very big bizarre mountain to climb. Yeah. But basically, they build all this theory around the pill bottles that they found at the scene and it was a huge mistake.

39:45The Commonwealth wanted to challenge the idea that Lindsey was overmedicated, and they showed that various pill boxes found at the house by the police were basically still full. So a according to them, Lindsey Clancy wasn't following her clinician's advice. She was doing that because she knew she wasn't really sick, and that's why she didn't take her medication. They also claimed that she regularly changed doctors and nurses because she was trying to find one she could trick and manipulate. The problem is, the Lindsey Clancy moving from expert to expert, yes, sometimes it was her choice, but sometimes she was referred to different people by some of the physicians, and sometimes the person treating her, for example, just moved on and left that institution, like, moved away. So it's this weird thing out there trying to say she was doctor shopping. I'm like, for what? Doctor shopping to not be addicted to drugs. I don't really, I don't get it. It's such a confusing narrative, and I honestly don't think any of this landed. Secondly, the other reason this was a big fail, then bringing up the pill bottles, like the near full pill bottles that they found

40:47at the house. It turned out that the police had done an absolutely rubbish job of searching the property and had missed a load of empty pill bottles in Lindsey Clancy's Bucking Bedside table. Pill boxes, the Patrick found, and then handed over to Kevin Reddington, Lindsey's defensive turning. Who obviously pulls them out a trial? And let's highlight even further how inconsistent the Commonwealth was. They also introduced a book into evidence that had been found amongst Lindsey's belongings. It was a self-help that called Goodmums have scary thoughts, and said that this proof that Lindsey was well aware of all of her psychological issues. But then also said that she was faking all of it. What? Oh God. It's very bizarre. Honestly, I've never seen anything like her. It's very, very strange. And look, if you wholeheartedly believe that Lindsey Clancy was in such a psychotic state at the time of the killings

41:48that she either couldn't appreciate what she was doing was wrong or she couldn't stop herself, which is the standard in Massachusetts, then okay, that's fine. I'm not even disagreeing. We'll talk about what our theories are at the end. But my point is, and why I'm so annoyed and spending so much time talking about how the Commonwealth did such a poor job, I feel, in my opinion, of trying this case is that even if you believe that, if there is any chance that Lindsey Clancy is lying, just in the same way that Lindsey Clancy deserves a good defence. Her children, her victims, the ones who lost their lives deserve good representation in court. And I just don't think they got that from the state. They did not get this in this trial. Like I really think they were, they were so let down by the Commonwealth. And again, like I said, you might not care that the Commonwealth did a poor job because you want Lindsey Clancy to be found no guilty by reason of insanity. But if there is a chance she's lying, then didn't those children deserve the best representation, which they didn't get? Next up for the Commonwealth is Dr. Shah and Dr.

42:48Bizwas, both of whom were psychologists who Lindsey had seen in the days after the murders. Dr. Shah said that she saw Lindsey five days after she was hospitalised and that Lindsey seemed okay. She wasn't presenting as suicidal and she was future orientated, saying that she didn't think about her kids all day, but was upset about the legal situation. Dr. Bizwas who saw Lindsey straight away said that Lindsey asked if her body was broken and if her legs were straight. She asked if she had a lawyer, but didn't ask about her children. Even though at that stage, Callan was still alive. Why doesn't Lindsey just say that she spent all of her time weeping over her kids? It does look bad. Was she in shock? Surely if she was faking it, she would just lie. And if she had been in the middle of psychotic break during the killings, why isn't she now horrified by what she has done? Both of the doctors said that within two days of the murders, Lindsey

43:53showed no signs of psychosis, but she's going to be on some sort of sedative, isn't she? They'd be mad not to. Yeah. Again, it's all just pointing out the things. I really don't know. Because the medical experts can't agree. They can't agree. I'm not going to sit here as a podcaster and be like, this is how she should have been feeling and this is what makes sense. I'm not qualified to do that. All I'm saying is if she was psychotic at the time and they're saying the psychosis has lifted, where's the like shock at what she's done? Yeah, and I'm not saying if it's not there, that means that she wasn't psychotic. I'm just questioning it. And then also if she was lying and malingering, why isn't she now like, oh my god, what did I do? What did I like? It doesn't really make sense. She just has like no nothing going on, like no reaction. And I guess people are turned off because the questions are about herself that she's asking. She's like, are my legs straight? Am I okay? Will I walk again? And there's not any concern for the children. So I understand

44:55why people feel like that's fucked. Like I understand why that rubs people the wrong way. Now day seven revealed another odd move from the Commonwealth. They called the Clancy Sporman Nanny, a woman named Lany Rossi. And I really don't know why they called her. I do not know why Lany is there. It's obvious that they're trying to paint Lindsay as a sort of crazy controlling mother who didn't trust anyone else to look after her children. But it backfires on them in a massive way because Lany was firmly team Lindsay. The Nanny had worked with them, helping with Callan mainly from September to November 2022. And the Clancy's basically only let her go when Patrick and Lindsay decided that Lindsay wasn't going to go back to work. Like so she said, I don't need the Nanny. I'm going to stay home and I'll be fine. And basically Lindsay and Lany had this system where they had this journal and Lindsay would write in the book too lazy every day telling her basically all the things that she needed to know about. Like how he had slept the night before

45:55went to put him down for his naps that day went to feed him what to give him how to burp him. And the Commonwealth tried to paint this as Lindsay being crazy. And I'm like, I've all the crazy things. This is not that crazy. No, I was literally just thinking I was like, that's a really good system. Yeah, because she's a nurse. And when she was trying to go back to work, she can't be on her phone if Lany has a question. So she writes everything down. And that's like the system that they had and Lany would write back in there so that Lindsay could read it when she got home and things like that. And Lany was like, to the Commonwealth, that didn't bother me at all. Lindsay was a great mum. And I think most parents would agree that being prescriptive in your direction on how a Nanny is going to look after your very young child. Callum is not a year old yet. He's eight months old when he dies. Like he's perfectly normal. Lindsay Clancy clearly doesn't want her life to be made even harder by her schedule for Callum going out of the window while she's at work. They even mock Lindsay, the Commonwealth even mock Lindsay and basically laugh at the fact that she used to tell

46:55Lany in the journal. For example, if you could start dinner, that would be great. And if you cut the vegetables to like, you know, a certain size that would be like really helpful and they're like, look how fucking controlling she is. And it's like, sorry, Callum would have just started eating solid foods. A size of vegetables is important to avoid choking. Like it was really cringy to watch that like back and forth between the prosecution and Lany Rossi like it really was. And any parents in the jury would be like, do you have cubes? Like, that would be a question. That's it was very in it. They're sort of even within the quite small pool of parents that I know that's not even middling on the like, this is how you take care of my child's girl. Yeah. And they tried to put this to Patrick as well when he was on the stand and he was just like, I would have written the same exact notes to Lany. And they're just like, okay, it's so weird. And then the Commonwealth

47:56asked Lany about Lindsay's relationship with Dawson because Lindsay had posted online about Dawson saying, my son Dawson is one of the most difficult human beings I've ever known. I mean, that was all the love in my heart. And kids are difficult. Like, I don't understand why the why I mean, why are the Commonwealth pretending that being a parent is a walk in the bar? I think I don't think either of them have children. And I think that's why they're saying these things because this is just so like, it's run of the mill, run it. She's not even talking about throwing her baby in a wheelchair, but she's just like Dawson the fucking difficult child. And that post was made two years before the murders. Lindsay wasn't just fencing. She was asking for advice in a parenting group. So it seems really difficult to grasp what the Commonwealth are trying to prove apart from demonstrate they don't have children. I think we've all got friends who've said exactly the same thing. In any case, Lany stays calm and ends her testimony by

48:59saying that she thought Lindsay was a wonderful mum and that during the time she had spent with the Clancy family, she had seen no issues at all. And this theme would continue into the next two days of the trial as the Commonwealth called Patrick Clancy's dad and the couple's friends to testify. Again, I really struggled to understand how any of these witnesses helped the prosecution. Why are they calling Patrick Clancy's dad? I do not get it. They call him up there. This poor man who has lost his grandchildren, he looks absolutely like just again, broken. And he refuses to accept the prosecution's theory that Lindsay was his hyper-controlling mother who refused to leave the kids with anyone else. He's very supportive of Lindsay, which would no doubt have been very powerful to the jury. Her ex father-in-law, a man who has lost his three grandchildren, was still defending the woman who killed them. But the Commonwealth tried to get him to recount incidents where Lindsay had grown frustrated with the kids when they didn't listen to her, pointing out a time at thanksgiving

50:01where she had physically moved Dawson into a chair because he refused to sit down. That's literally what they say. Didn't she grab him by the arm and move him into the chair? And I'm like, yes, because to a child, you tell them the instruction ones. If they do not follow it, you physically move them to make them do it. Like, shut the fuck up. What are you talking about? Oh my god. And Mr. Clancy just said that Dawson could be well-full. And that Lindsay was a very good mother. There was nothing to back up any form of abuse taking place in that home. And investigators were asked at trial. You would have turned over every single stone in a case like this to find any potential abuse, wouldn't you? But there just wasn't any to find. All of the investigators had the same reply. Nope. Nothing. Found nothing. Yep. Exactly. Do you not think they would have scoured? Three children murdered. They would have scoured that family's life and history for any sort of abuse.

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52:09Now available in Canada and the UKT. That's qiuince.com slash red handed. Everyone who knew the clients he said the same thing. Patrick and Lindsay were happy and they were good parents. Lindsay was an amazing nurse who cared deeply about looking after women when they were pregnant and when they were in labor. She was nurturing and caring and loving and very concerned about her kids. She'd never got so much as a parking ticket in her life. They also said that Lindsay was not a complainer. They she never moaned about her life. Having

53:13three kids was hard but they all said that Lindsay always wanted to have lots of kids and she wanted them to be close in age. But many of Lindsay's friends were also nurses and therapists and they all also did back up the fact that in the months leading up to the murders Lindsay had been suffering with her mental health. And they all said that Lindsay had told them that her medication was making her have dark thoughts but never told anyone about hearing voices. One of her friends visited her in hospital and apparently Lindsay never spoke to her about her kids. She asked about her daughter as in the friend's daughter but she never spoke about her own. The friend did also say that Lindsay's sister had told her not to bring up the murders or the kids on the advice of professionals who were treating Lindsay. And again this is all quite odd. The Commonwealth seemed to be trying to get this friend to say that Lindsay didn't want to be a mother anymore and that she wanted to get out of this life. But there was literally not a single person who backed that claim.

54:14And not one piece of evidence that corroborated it either. There was no wet t-shirt competition photos down at the local club, Ella Casey Antony. And I think on the voices thing, again I think this can be a bit of a misconception. So the symptom in itself is what we're actually talking about is an auditory hallucination. Those can be all sorts of things like hearing a door slam that didn't. And that is a low level and it's very difficult to spot it because they're everyday noises and you can't as the person all the time differentiate whether they're there or not. And that's very often in that umbrella of mental disorder is how it starts and it gets to voices. Sometimes, but because we're also used to like, oh she was hearing voices being the like the parameter for therefore she was having a psychotic episode. Auditory hallucinations can happen at a very low level for a very long time and it could just be that they were there

55:18and she didn't know it. There's so many possibilities with this also like, you know, they refer to the ones that Lindsay says she has as like command hallucinations because they were telling her to do things. But those can come from outside like an external voice speaking to they can come from inside. So when she refers to intrusive thoughts does she mean intrusive thoughts has in just like horrible thoughts she can't scrub or is it a voice like it's really not very clear. I think the key thing is we have to say she never told anybody. She says intrusive thoughts she never says voices and she does speak about it later when she is interviewed by lots of medical experts and and the voice is becomes a big part of the sort of end crescendo of this trial and the medical witnesses. So we will definitely come back to it. But yes, it's all very, very confusing and nobody is super clear on it. But yes, coming back to this, coming back to this angle of the prosecution trying to say that Lindsay Clancy didn't want to be a mum or the controlling thing as well because what's so odd is to go down the road with some of the witnesses to say, oh, there's a Lindsay Clancy

56:18so obsessive and so controlling a mum and she won't lay anyone watching her kids and she's obsessed with the size of vegetables that they eat and all of this. But then in the next series of witnesses to then claim that she didn't want to be a mum at all because she hated being a mum like, I kind of get how you could say those two things like fit together because she has to be so obsessive and she's over it and she doesn't know how to be a more chill mum so she'd rather not be a mum at all. But that's not even really what the commonwealth are saying. They're kind of like changing the narrative based on whichever witness they're speaking to, which is just never a really good way to go about things like it just doesn't really make sense. You're confusing people. And then we get to day 10 where it felt like we were finally getting somewhere. As this is when the doctors who treated Lindsay Clancy, both Dr Tuffs and a woman named Dr Goodheart from McLean Hospital took the stand. Now look, I have to say however, Dr Goodheart felt a bit non. If I'm honest, the commonwealth tried to say that Lindsay checked herself out of McLean three weeks before the murders. But the doctor was like, no, she didn't check herself out.

57:23She asked if she could leave and I let her go. I was fine. She didn't leave against medical advice. What makes even less sense than that is why Dr Goodheart isn't a cardiologist. Come on, quiet. It's right there. Please, please. And yes, Dr Goodheart also says, yes, I let her go. I let her go to Korra's birthday party because Lindsay Clancy did not as far as I could see half psychosis and I don't think she was a danger to herself or anyone else. Obviously, like I said three weeks later, she doesn't not murdering her three children. But that is what Dr Goodheart says. And I think it is also clear that there was quite little investigation done. That's what came out of the testimony for me with Dr Goodheart. Very little investigation seems to have happened when she was at McLean. It does seem like they just kind of take Lindsay's word for everything. Again, they don't check her medical records. And like I said, I get in the US, it's a different system with some flaws around that kind of thing. But it is a big issue throughout this case that the practitioners who deal with Lindsay just looked at her to provide an accurate account, even though she's clearly

58:27suffering from an ongoing mental health condition and can't be necessarily relied upon to be a reliable narrator or reliable historian of her own health. Dr Jennifer Tufts was more interesting. She was after all the psychiatrist who had been treating Lindsay Clancy on and off for the entire four months before the murders. She was the first doctor that Lindsay saw for her concerns and also the last one she spoke to before the killings. Tufts and Lindsay had an appointment on the 23rd of January, the day before Lindsay murdered her three children. So naturally there is a lot of scrutiny on Dr. Surfs, especially as she was young and Lindsay Clancy was a patient of hers in her very first year of treating patients as a fully qualified doctor. And her testimony raised a lot of points about her mental health treatment is not a perfect science. It's clear that Lindsay Clancy wasn't totally honest with regards to certain things to those treating her.

59:29For example, she discloses to Patrick and her mum about having thoughts of harming the children, but when asked by doctors she says no. So we don't know what else she was hiding, but where does the liability sit? How honest is a mental health patient always likely to be with their doctor? Dr. Tufts said she gave Lindsay a suicide checklist and she checked no to everything. But later she called a suicide hotline twice and never told Dr. Tufts about it. But then Lindsay Clancy also showed insight telling Tufts, I think it's my problem, I keep preaching out to different people and not sticking with the plan. This was in response to Tufts saying too Lindsay that she needed to stick with her meds longer than just a few days before deciding if they were working or not. And she also implored Lindsay to stop seeing multiple clinicians to just pick one and stay with them. But then you know I also get it, I get that if the drugs are making her worse and she knows that they're making her worse because she feels worse, should she keep

1:00:30taking them? I don't know and also can she not ask for a second opinion if she isn't happy with a practitioner? Yes, I absolutely appreciate that it seems like a very bad idea to simultaneously see multiple people and simultaneously take drugs prescribed to you by two different people who don't know about each other and you're not disclosing the treatment they are receiving. But I also think it's odd that Tufts didn't order Lindsay Clancy's medical records like why didn't she do that? Like I said people do this again and again and again and when Tufts has asked this by Reddington on the stand she said that Lindsay was medically sophisticated and she didn't think it was necessary. And Dr Jennifer Tufts saw Lindsay Clancy for an appointment the day before the killings. Lindsay reported having increased anxiety but said that she was sleeping okay. Tufts asked about hallucinations and Lindsay said no. And Dr Tufts said that she saw no signs of psychosis that day. And it is worth noting that none of the medical professionals who saw Lindsay in the months before the murders ever noticed signs of psychosis. Which is why she doesn't have the

1:01:37diagnosis. Yeah and people challenge that they're like really really did you not see that she had signs of psychosis like basically Tufts and pretty much everyone else who says that they saw no psychosis because again it's women in infants it's Tufts it's gelata like everybody is saying we didn't see any signs of that. They're saying it's because they saw the extreme lows but they didn't see they're like mania that can be associated with psychosis. But some people have questioned that they're like she was running a fucking marathon after she had a baby does that knockout as mainly like I don't know again it feels very much more of an art to diagnose like in mental health spaces than just like a black and white like scientific way. So I don't know but I think it is worth mentioning that she never says about the voices to anybody apparently there aren't any because she doesn't hear them until the day and nobody spots any other signs of psychosis in her before the murders like that is an appointment that we can ignore like she was seeing a lot of medical professionals and either you have to believe that all of them are incompetent and missed it or

1:02:38they're not incompetent but they all missed it or it genuinely wasn't there. That takes us to day 11 where the Commonwealth called nurse gelata to testify. And it's a bit of a mix bag gelata did acknowledge that Lindsay was getting worse in November and December of 2022. Lindsay was texting nurse gelata a lot almost on a daily basis telling her I've tried so many things nothing is working I can't sleep and when I do I just wake up with intrusive thoughts. Lindsay said I feel numb no emotions and I'm going to die and I don't care. Day 12 of the trial was pretty grueling this is when the medical examiner who carried out the autopsies on the children took the stand. He explained in horrifying detail the injuries that each of the children had suffered down to how the veins in eight month old Collins head had been bulging and how his eyes had almost popped out of his head. The jury were also shown photos but thankfully

1:03:41they have not been released publicly. Lindsay Clancy sobbed throughout and this is where she actually exclaimed out loud I can't do this. At which point the trial had to be halted the jury had to be sent out they they needed to take a break and it's a tough one because I understand why the Commonwealth did this right there's there's a lot of talk in this trial about the fact that Lindsay Clancy pleaded guilty right and her and Kevin Reddington tried to stipulate to the fact they're trying to say look you don't need to prove that I killed the kids please don't try prove that I killed the kids I admit that I killed the kids let's just focus on the they're like why and the psychological side of it and they want to do that because they don't want the common wealth to fixate on how the children were killed because that is going to emotionally be gut-wrenching for the jury and the more it is that way the more likely they are to want to punish Lindsay Clancy which is obviously what the commonwealth want and I do understand therefore why the commonwealth did this like it's it's shocking it's gruelling it's it's very very brutal and violent

1:04:43but I do also think it's it's a difficult one because I think if people in the jury already think Lindsay Clancy deserved this and she did kill them then it would play well with them but I think anyone who was sympathetic to Lindsay Clancy they could also be looking at the common wealth like why are you torturing this poor woman why are you making her look at these pictures why are you making her listen to this medical examiner and that's why Kevin Reddington doesn't get her to go out of the courtroom she could have not been there when this testimony was being read out but I think it was a calculated decision to keep her there and I'm not saying she's faking having the reaction but I think that when Reddington knew there was a possibility she would react like that and that anyone sympathetic on the jury because they just need one they just need one would see her break down like that and I think would speak to them but like yet again I have seen that clip be used by people who are saying that Patrick has framed her and even knowing you know the base level and obviously you know I am more likely to have my feet on the ground when it comes to stuff like this because this is what we've been doing for like a decade but I did

1:05:47because it's the clip and they're saying obviously she didn't kill these children because this is her reaction and I'm like but she didn't say I didn't do it she's like she's saying I can't go through this again and that is so normal so to like hang on that and just like ram it into your square hole is like you I'm just seeing it everywhere I really just don't understand because I'm like her feeling horrified and disgusted and even the commonwealth's own witnesses as we're going to see say this was a very traumatic event for her they think that she killed the children and they don't think that she was in a psychotic state but they're still like this was a very traumatic event for her why would she not have a traumatic response to seeing it it doesn't mean she's fucking innocent doesn't mean she didn't kill the children it's such a bizarre like hop skipping a jump to like another planet like I don't know totally man totally and then next up in the spotlight were

1:06:52Lindsey Clancy's journals and this is one of the most confusing things that the commonwealth did it's the commonwealth that entered Lindsey's journal into evidence which then allowed the defense to use them yes because Lindsey wrote them the defense can't put them in like the commonwealth brought this journal in I'm like what are you doing what are you doing it's so bizarre and we've got a clip for you here from a commonwealth witness reading from Lindsey's journal but it just feels the wrong way round it should be a defense witness I'm sad and depressed because I'm not able to apparent my third child like my first I want to treat anyone of my babies like my first but I know that's not a feasible possibility I'm sad that I stopped the press feeding I feel not as connected with cow now I think I sort of resent my other children because they prevent me from treating cow like my first baby and I know that's not fair to

1:07:55them I know that I was feeling so depressed last evening when corn Dawson came home from school I know her runs off on them so we had a pretty rough evening I want to feel love and connection with all my kids I'm also probably having a bit of an internal conflict because my whole life I wanted to have a lot of kids I still don't want cow to be our last but I have a lot of figuring out to do before I have another I'm on the fence both starting a new medication for anxiety slash depression I just want to feel happy I want to be able to relax and take care of my kids and then when they go to bed at night I want to deeply relax and hang out with Pat and then fall into a deep sleep for eight hours get up and pour hard into myself for an hour and a half cow was so very planned and desired I want to be able to give him all the love he deserves I guess that's what it's like to be the third child though he's not the first third child to ever exist I think I know he'll be okay but it's really hard for me I hate that he has to put himself to sleep I'm sad I'm not press feeding

1:08:58anymore but I think deep down these are the right choices as with the sleep training I needed a baby that slept through the night because I simply do not have the opportunity in my life to catch up on sleep I just don't if there was a time for me to nap every day then that may not have been the case but there really isn't when cow naps I have to take care of core and awesome that's just how it is it feels cruel to me that we did not do that to cow but the reality is we did what we had to do I guess I also feel slightly traumatized by the sleep training but that feeling was only really present when I was severely sleeped or five in paranoid I know what we did was the right thing and okay as for the breast feeding it kind of goes hand in hand with the sleep training once you started sleeping most of the night it was then a daily struggle to keep up my milk supply I was having to take a ton of supplements and constantly think about eating and drinking enough to keep the supply up and then I was

1:09:58having to think about pumping actually keep it up and that was really hard to do with core and dosing around when I tried to leave cow to go out with core and dos and I was stressed about the pumping and not to mention the fact that cow was at home and not taking a bottle so it was a battle of it of if I should pump or not I know I did the right thing because I need to be able to leave cow with someone and get fed as much as I don't want to leave them I need to be able to I need to be able to be present with my other kids I still really really want a fourth child but I need to really get therapist before then I'm on the fence about starting a new met or not I want to feel happy but it would be nice to feel authentically happy and not fake but I need to feel happier than I did last evening because then I was pretty depressed and not enjoying any of my children it was really sad I needed the breastfeeding off of my plate I'm struggling so hard because I wanted a parent each of my kids like my first this is definitely the root cause of all our problems

1:10:58now I feel like I'm not parenting any of my kids the way I want to and that makes me sad too but I'm going to try my best today it totally contradicts the Commonwealth theory that Lindy Clancy hated being a mother she literally says that she wants more children and it sounds like she is desperately wanting to get better and to be happy and take care of her kids and have more she talks about feeling guilty for sleep training her son and for stopping breastfeeding and that she's drowning in anxiety and that just doesn't speak to a woman who can't be fucked no they're trying to make her case the Anthony when I'm like how is she she's not in any way shape or form you know those pieces in your wardrobe that you find yourself reaching for over and over again the sweater that somehow works with everything the jeans you know will always fit just right or the bag you carry everywhere well they can be hard to find so to save you endlessly ordering

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1:13:04open air freedom and jeep gladiator after 85 years it's no surprise that jeep became America's SUV brand get a great deal during the jeep driving to fall sales event jeep is one more awards over its lifetime than any other SUV brand jeep and the jeep grill register trademarts of FCA US LLC so yes before we move on from the journals is comes back to what I said last week about like literally every piece of evidence can just be used by both sides to like prove something else the defense have now got this journal the defense read it out the defense read out even more entries and I'm just like why would you want to introduce this yeah this is so bad for you anyway then there are Lindsey clancy's google searches the Commonwealth claimed the way back in august 2022 long before Lindsey clancy even saw a doctor about you know her symptoms they said she was at home googling methods of suicide on the home shared tablet but I thought Commonwealth that your theory after your opening wasn't the suicide was fake so why would you be doing that is it to stage a better suicide I don't really get it in any case this

1:14:10was such a load of nothing and such a total waste of time because Patrick admitted that he had been the one that had been googling about a singer that he had recently started listening to a singer named Tom Hall who would kill himself and basically Patrick says yeah I think I was on like Tom Hall's Wikipedia and there was a link through to like the fact that he had killed himself and I clicked on it and it took me to a website that talked about suicide methods and like that was and like he admits it and then at the trial when when Patrick is like yeah that that was me that was me like I'm the one that listens to Tom Hall was even funnier the reddington shreds the fucking cyber security guy or cyber guy who was like giving this evidence because he's like did you also know at the time these searches was made that Lindsey clancy was taking her son to the doctors was I'm just like how did the Commonwealth not know that how did they not know that and why are they putting this person on stand to prove nothing it's just so bizarre to me and it's not like

1:15:15someone was at their googling methods to kill what would this have proven anyway like I really don't get it it's just it's just sad it's honestly sad and then there are more Google searches in December 2022 medication searches for the drugs that Lindsey had been given asking what to do when a psychiatrist overprescribed can bipolar be temporary can Benzo's reveal bipolar what is DBT and then January 2023 more searches can you treat a sociopath and then a search for schizophrenia psychosis Sarah Quill and then a hyphen can't have a conversation self-harm sleep meds and so many are intrusive hallucinations and all of these searches for hallucinations came before the day of the murders but when Lindsey was asked by medical providers if she was suffering from hallucinations even by Dr. Tufts the day before the killings Lindsey clancy said no but I understand

1:16:19why I do she's a nurse so I think it comes down to so is she searching the word hallucinations because she's having hallucinations and she's just not telling her doctor that she is or is she as you know the commonwealth suggests basically googling hallucinations so that she can come up with a viable story and come up for a defense when she kills her kids which is what she's planning to do the thing is if it's the latter if it's that she's researching hallucinations so that she can say that she's having hallucinations later when Tufts asked her are you having hallucinations why wouldn't she just say yes she's gonna go before the day yes why wouldn't you just say yes because that is gonna put that much more firmly on your record than a little google search that you just hope that the police see later down the line like I don't really get it and I don't know but also my question is if she was having hallucinations why does she make no mention of it anywhere like in her own private journals even and I get what you're saying like maybe she was and she didn't

1:17:20realize what they were she was starting to realize possibly and maybe it was also just paranoia maybe she thought if she even wrote it down anywhere that she'd be sectioned or have her kids taken away I don't know but it is a fact it is a point that it is never mentioned anywhere before apart from this one google search where she google searches the word hallucinations day 15 saw yet another bizarre blunder for the commonwealth they called to the stand Patrick Clancy's mom Susan and they asked her you're a Catholic right so you believe that murder is a mortal sin it's not just Catholics that believe come on it Catholics that believe that suicide is a cardinal sin do your homework this whole exchange is so so beyond inappropriate and unprofessional like I I don't know it could have been a mistrial it really could have been a mistrial and the judge shut it down immediately quite rightly bringing up religion as a way to bolster a

1:18:25a witness or manipulator jury is just grounds for mistrial it's what it is yeah yeah the point it seems they were trying to make was if god thinks that this is a sin how can you say that it isn't yeah really don't understand what other point they could be trying to make like which is which is manipulating an emotionally blackmailing the jury and Susan who is on the stand as a defense witness like what are you trying to do here it's so inappropriate to bring up religion like that you're basically saying well you know even god says this is a sin how can you how can you not say it's a sin it's really bizarre it's very very bizarre and they also show a total lack of empathy towards Susan and it's it's jarring they're so cold with this woman who's gone through so much and when she walked off the stand Susan gave Lindsay a little head nod something that the jury would absolutely have seen again let's remember she's her ex mother-in-law who lost her three grand

1:19:30children and as she walks off the stand she still gives Lindsay a little like head nod like that's powerful for the jury I don't agree at all moving on we've got cyber evidence and this is all actually quite interesting but it didn't really have much time spent on it the expert used Lindsay Clancy's Apple Watch and iPhone to show that someone was walking up and down the stairs at the Clancy House at 503 before Patrick claimed to have left at 515 and it does seem that Lindsay took her Apple Watch off at 523 and then between 533 and 538 someone Lindsay was walking up or down two flights of stairs at this point we know that Patrick was at CVS he's on CCTV and it was at this time that Lindsay phoned Patrick back the Commonwealth suggested that the stair climbing was Lindsay Clancy walking from the basement up a flight of stairs to the kitchen and he is she called

1:20:35Patrick back got a knife and went up another flight of stairs to the master bedroom which is where her phone was found on her bed there was no blood on the Apple Watch or on her iPhone so it's reasonable to assume that Lindsay Clancy killed the kids called Patrick back so that you know he wouldn't panic and come home too soon because otherwise why calling back like he called you was a miss call like why call him back there must be a reason why she's doing that to maintain some some level of normality and then she cuts her wrist neck takes the pills and then jumps out the was interesting here is that the last recorded heart rate like beats per minute heart rate for Lindsay Clancy taken by her Apple Watch was at 523 pm so right before she takes it off like you know shortly after Patrick leaves but eight minutes after Patrick has left and it was at 57 beats per minute that's like lower than average for a normal healthy adult but not like unreasonably 60 to 80 is maybe where you're looking so not unreason she's quite fit she works out a lot

1:21:39between eight minutes since Patrick left and there's only a 10 minute gap before she calls Patrick back while he's still at CVS so for it to all work in the time frame that he is gone she would have had to start killing the kids by this point like she would have had to like it it just doesn't make sense that she wouldn't because she doesn't have long so why did she take off the Apple Watch and how come her heart rate was so low if she was already implementing this plan to kill the children or she'd had a psychotic break and she was killing the children what does this tell us please no because none of the experts delved into this quite bizarrely is a low heart rate indicative of psychosis Lindsay Clancy did say that she felt totally disconnected from her body and like she was just watching herself do it but then again it doesn't necessarily mean psychosis as another expert does explain sort of very vaguely it could also have just been the brain and the body's way of dealing with a traumatic situation so I don't know but I think the flight climb data shows to me that she is alive after Patrick goes to CVS she's walking from the basement probably

1:22:41up to the kitchen where she gets the knife she calls Patrick back and then she walks up the second flight of stairs after she finishes the call with him which is where she she tries to end her own life and I think because she goes back upstairs and she never comes back down and the phone is well that we know of the children are probably already in the basement and they're probably already got the bands on that that seems like the most likely scenario next the defense called doctor lapisata a forensic pathologist and medical examiner she was there to explain the injuries that Lindsay had sustained doctor lapisata insisted that Lindsay's injuries were not consistent with someone who climbed and shimmyed out of a window but with someone who had jumped and landed headfirst on frozen ground Lindsay's C1 vertebrae had essentially exploded several other vertebrae were broken and so were every single one of her ribs and again just a point out lapisata doesn't say anything and orders any expert who looks at this crime scene say that it looked like Lindsay was pushed out of the window it looked very much like she jumped lapisata also

1:23:45explained something that had been confusing a lot of people Lindsay's body temperature was incredibly low and she was taken to hospital she was at 82 degrees Fahrenheit or 28 degrees Celsius that is moderate to severe hypothermia how could Lindsay have got so cold so fast this made the Patrick did it crowd very excited because he must have pushed her earlier than he said before he left for CVS even though Lindsay's phone and Apple watched kept moving inside the house while Patrick was gone I've even seen people say that he took the Apple watch with him to CVS yeah I've seen that because Lindsay like I said Lindsay takes the Apple watch off why she takes it off I don't know some people say it's because it was nefarious she didn't want the Apple watch to track what she was about to do which is kill the kids or people said that she took it off because she was cutting her wrist and the Apple watch was in the way so she just needed to get it off and I don't know but I'm like the Apple watch was found in a drawer at home and sure you can

1:24:48be like Patrick came back and placed it there and then he took it to CVS with him to call himself pretending to be Lindsay but like again I just I don't know I don't know why and the phone is what is showing the flight climb data to be fair because she's taken the watch off but she's still got the phone on her but that means that somebody was still alive walking up and down the fucking stairs so what does it matter if he took the Apple watch with her Lindsay is still alive at home this is what you can be like even if he took the Apple watch with him I don't know why but even if he did someone is alive at home with Lindsay Clancy's phone walking up and down the stairs so what is it this is what I mean yeah sure I can't prove that he didn't but I don't need to because the phone proves that she's alive moving around at home also this is another thing that I wanted to add in people are talking about this phone call and also other things in this case as if Patrick is on trial for murdering Lindsay

1:25:50saying things like what we just talked about that he took the Apple watch to the store to phone himself and set up an alibi to make it seem like she was still alive when you know like we just discussed her iPhone was still moving around at the house while he's on CVS CCTV so that doesn't make any sense anyway but the point is that the people saying these kind of things online are implying that we only have his word for the fact that the phone call took place even if you don't believe that the police verified this in their investigation i.e. they didn't check that there was an outgoing call from Lindsay Clancy's phone to Patrick Lindsay Clancy is not dead we also have her word for it because she has also said yeah iPhone Patrick back after he phoned me when he was in the store to ask about the medicine all of this we're just taking his word for it it doesn't make any sense because Lindsay is agreeing with Patrick Clancy's version of events and I know some people will pivot and be like well he drugged her and manipulated her and she's just going

1:26:51along with it because he's some sort of mind melting Sven Gali but also what about the evidence because that also agrees with most of Patrick's version of events so the thing I don't understand is why people are so willing to dismiss Lindsay Clancy she's saying that happened I'd at least understand the skepticism if Lindsay Clancy was denying ever making that phone call but she's not why people so insistent on robbing Lindsay Clancy of her agency and her voice and her story and Dr Lapisate explained that Lindsay's extreme temperature drop was because she had wet clothes on the temperature outside that night was in the low 30s that's minus one degree Celsius and it was dark so there's no sunlight to warm her and Lindsay was lying there unable to move on cold hard snowy ground and having a severe spinal fracture would have disrupted the thermoregulation of the lower half of Lindsay's body so there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for how she got

1:27:55so cold so quick. Day 16 brought defense witness Dr Zyzel he saw Lindsay Clancy 10 days after the killings and up until then no one else had really seen her so her parents were allowed to see her Patrick wasn't allowed to see her no one else was allowed to see her the only people were doctors nurses and the hospital chaplain now according to him Lindsay was confused and what she really wanted to do was speak to Patrick to tell him that she loved him and ask how he was so Dr Zyzel said that he let Lindsay use his phone to call Patrick but he said you have to keep it on speaker and I have to stay in the room so Lindsay called her husband and told him that she had killed the children because of voice her told her to to be clear the first time he calls he obviously doesn't recognize an episode he doesn't pick up then they try again the next day and this when they help this conversation so this is the first time we're hearing about the voice like publicly it's not the first person she's told we're going to talk about Sheila Cabin or the chaplain in a second

1:28:57but she tells Patrick that that is why she killed the children apparently she doesn't say anything else about the children and while this doesn't prove anything I do wonder how that would have made the jury feel because the Commonwealth do say to Dr Zyzel did she say anything about the children and he has to say no Lindsay also told Zyzel that the evening of the murders was the first time she heard the voice and she also said that after she murdered the children she never heard the voice again and Dr Zyzel as I said earlier called the succamante hallucination and in his opinion he believes that Lindsay Clancy was psychotic at the time of the murders and the voice that she heard was so overbearing she just could not ignore it he also said that the psychotic state could have started earlier in the day and that a person in psychosis can still make a plan carry out ordinary tasks and interact as normal so making phone calls ordering food remembering to tell Patrick to buy medicine none of those things rule out psychosis what's tricky is that

1:29:59Zyzel basically says that psychosis doesn't affect a lot of things including your own intellectual abilities your capacity to act normally to plan to speak to function psychosis just removes your ability to know right from wrong yeah I get it I do get yeah and obviously it doesn't always it doesn't always because we also said that psychosis doesn't immediately mean that but he's basically sitting there asking the jury to believe like she could have done everything she could have done everything she was doing that day at totally normally but it would have removed her ability to know right from wrong and I think for a layperson that could be quite a you know a tough hill to climb up so you're saying nothing else was affected but that I don't know it's just worth pointing out I'm not saying that's what I think and I'm also not saying that psychosis immediately removes your ability to know right from wrong but I think it's a fair question to ask you know and there are just so many therapists psychologist psychiatrist testifying at this trial and they don't all agree on what psychosis looks like they don't even agree on what to diagnose Lindsey Clancy with so really we can only come at this by asking questions at a lay jury would right

1:31:02I'm not sitting here asking questions saying this this needs to be medically interrogated I'm just saying this is what an ordinary person might think so yeah I don't think we can just ignore the concerns and questions raised about the voice and I think people are also finding it hard to believe that it happened once and only once and that that was only during the time that she was murdering the children even a defense witness Dr. Resnick who we will talk about more in a second said that he would and this is a quote on the stand at trial he said that he would doubt the truth fulness of someone who claimed that they obeyed a one-off command hallucination so not saying that you hear it one off but that you would obey a one-off command hallucination so if Lindsey was faking wouldn't it make more sense for her to say that she had to have the voice before and after does she just not know enough about hallucinations to accurately lie because you know Dr. Resnick is an expert that's why he's saying this maybe she just doesn't know that I don't know maybe she also doesn't say that she heard it before or after because she doesn't want to explain

1:32:04why she never told anyone about it or wrote down that she was hearing voices also she never described having and this is important a medical expert brings us up at trial Lindsey Clancy never described having any coping mechanisms to manage the voices most people who hear repeated voices in their head find ways to drown it out or to ignore it Lindsey never mentions this again is it just because she really didn't hear the voice before until the night of the murders but if so how plausible is it as Dr. Resnick said that she obeyed immediately also another commonwealth expert who again we will talk about in detail expert Gregory Sathoff would later explain that he has never seen a case where a command hallucination has been a one off and then he has also never seen a case in which following through on the actions of that voice was curative so the voice is telling her to kill the kids she kills the kids and then the voice immediately stops he's saying I've never seen that but again we'll come back to this and also

1:33:06never say never but also why have you got experts if you're not going to listen to them let's complicate chaplain Sheila Kavanaugh was a big witness for the defense she worked at the hospital and started visiting Lindsey from day one apparently the first day that Lindsey spoke to her she said I'm so glad my children are safe to which Kavanaugh says that she replied your children are safe they're with God in heaven but is that what Lindsey meant impossible to know is impossible to know also I get it the chaplain's job is not to interrogate Lindsey she's not there she's there to make her feel better I get that but like something about that just makes me feel so uncomfortable like Lindsey Clancy saying are my children safe now and she's like yes they're safe they're with God in heaven now it's something a bit gutter ought to me because it makes me feel like she's validating that thinking that murdering your children

1:34:09is okay as a way to ensure their safety maybe it's just how it made me feel and nobody else feels that way but I didn't like that I think it could also I know what you're saying I think it could also be used to like illustrate that Lindsey has no idea what's fucking happened yeah this exchange raises an obvious question did Lindsey think she was doing the right thing by killing her children like Andrea E8 what doesn't quite work there is that a month before the murders Lindsey told Patrick and her mum that she was worried about hurting her children so then at that point she knew that that was a bad thing when did the shift happen in her mind from a fear of hurting them when did that turn into saving her children by sending them to God Lindsey wasn't a particularly religious person nobody described her as such she went to mass at Christmas which is you know my mum calls them supermarket Catholics Christmas in Easter

1:35:11sweetie is it reasonable that Lindsey's delusions would be God-based again I don't know I don't know and we are going to compare this to Andrea E8 so I know some people are like shouldn't we compare it to Andrea E8 each case is their own and sure of course but like people are comparing to the fucking Chris Watts which makes me a little bit of a fucking sense so I'm going to compare it to Andrea E8 so I will save it for that but I think it is worth you know just remembering these things that we're peppering so Lindsey also told Chaplin Cabinol about the voice though and this is interesting the reason this comes up is basically the Commonwealth kind of accused Dr. Zyzel who is a defense expert and a friend of Kevin Reddington of going into hospital speaking to Lindsey Clancy and planting the idea of the voice in her head right because that's the first time that it kind of gets officially recorded that she's talking about a voice and Zyzel is like why would I do that he's also respected dogs I'm just like why would he go in there and plant this idea in her head so basically the reason the defense want the Chaplin to

1:36:15testifies because she says that she told me before she even met Zyzel that she had been hearing a voice now one of the things that the Commonwealth calls up at trial is the fact that Kavanaugh didn't write that down though she didn't make any notes regarding a voice or anything like that and Kavanaugh was like well I'm not there to take notes I'm not the police I'm not there to you know figure out what's going on but the Commonwealth are like but you did write down a lot of other things like how on the 13th of February so just three weeks after the murder she Lindsey and this is a quote from Chaplin Cabinol's journal she feels she has gained strength and agility and she feels deserving of this given recent events which again I'm not going to play well with the jury I don't feel like Ben on the 16th of February the Chaplin wrote down in her journal she feels uplifted at the thought of her upcoming release to spoolsing a center with an excellent reputation Lindsey was also apparently exercising in the hospital using a yellow exercise band as part of her rehab again I'm not saying that any of these things point to guilt or innocence or anything

1:37:19like that I'm saying how is this playing with the jury I agree agree with you not well and so now we are getting to the last few days of testimony and this is what we have all been waiting for the experts on psychology and psychiatry talk about what was really going on the night Lindsey Clancy killed her children and as per our previous email the expert system is enormously flawed and this case is no different both sides presented their own experts who come to totally different conclusions and what that means is that it falls to the jury to decide which expert is more experty in a lineup there was Dr Philip Reznik this time he was a defense expert but it's encouraging to see that previously he had worked for both the state and the defense that's always a very very good sign you don't want someone who's just like a shell for one side or the other co- tonight he does both and he'd worked on the Jeffrey Dahmer case and the Unibomber for the state

1:38:19and he actually turned down the defense for Casey Antony but worked for the Andrew Eates defense team he sounds like a moral man yeah he's exactly the kind of fucking witness that you want to be calling up right Dr. Redsnik testified that he believed that Lindsey Clancy was experiencing psychosis including command hallucinations and delusional thinking and he thinks that Lindsey did lack the appreciation of the wrongfulness of her actions and she was unable to conform her behavior to the law Dr. Reznik claims that Lindsey was having command hallucinations and experiencing a delusion of influence she felt that her body was taken over by an external force where she didn't have control over her body but she was a puppet and someone else was pulling the strings so under the influence of this command hallucination and under the grip of this idea of influence Lindsey Clancy was according to Reznik unable to conform her actions to the law Lindsey Clancy was unable to do the right thing Dr. Reznik also claimed that her motivations

1:39:24were tied to altruistic villaside villaside obviously being when parents killed their own children In her delusional mind Lindsey Clancy believed that something terrible would happen to her children if she killed herself and left them behind so she killed them out of love and in her distorted delusional mind she thinks that she's doing the right thing but the question I guess worth asking is what did Lindsey Clancy think would happen to her children without her she never wrote that down and all the doctors can really say from their interviews with her is that she thought they would suffer without her and look this isn't really what the trial is about but I think it's a valid question is is that a justifiable reason to kill your children even with delusional thinking it doesn't really feel to me like it's strong enough like Andrew Yeats thought her children were going to go to hell and suffer eternal damnation in fire and brimstone but then again I get it like we don't have to understand why Lindsey Clancy did this that's really not the point because

1:40:26she does have a delusional mind it was just something I couldn't help but feel wasn't adequately explained to me like what was the strong enough motivator for her to feel like she had to kill her children like if you're going to say it's altruistic filicide what is the altruism what is she saving them from and I didn't really understand that and upon cross examination Resnick did have to conceit that he had written articles about how people often ignore command hallucinations especially if it's dangerous to follow the orders and he had written that command hallucinations are very easy to fake and that is his especially likely that command hallucinations are not real when the individual claims to have a bade upon the first time hearing them which yeah I get that that doesn't move anyone's case forward right but it makes me trust him more in his like diagnosis of Lindsey because he isn't hiding anything like he's just saying I am a balanced medical professional and

1:41:29this is my opinion of this of what's happened to this woman. Dr. Kirk Heelerbrun a prosecution expert and their best witness by far rejected acute psychosis but agreed that Lindsey was mentally ill he assessed Lindsey over three days and he said that everyone thought that she was a great mom a great wife a wonderful person so why did this happen not a lot of typical motivations fit Lindsey wasn't abusive or angry at her children she wasn't after money or fame or attention she didn't hate them or want to get rid of them so Dr. Heelerbrun said he was left with two remaining possibilities a psychotic break featuring acute psychosis with command hallucinations or that it was a suicide attempt coupled with as Dr. Restnick the defense expert also stated altruistic filiside and it's not necessary to have a psychotic break to commit altruistic filiside we can look at a whole list of family and eye-lators who kill rationalizing themselves that their family is

1:42:32just better off that way and in those cases you also have a narcissistic killer who doesn't want to be seen to have failed in front of their families in some sort of way but it's not a million miles away either there's the selfishness of deciding who lives and who dies and then also believing that you know best yeah and that's the thing I'm not saying that family and eye-lators are altruistic filiside like perpetrators I'm not saying that I'm just saying that in cases like that that's the mentality that they use to rationalize what they do so if like a man is lost all his money and that put his family into financial ruin he's like I'm just going to kill you all because I don't want you to suffer but it's also because I don't want you to uncover my shame that I lost all of the family money or whatever and like Dr. Keelerbrun uses the example of like altruistic filiside I think it's him maybe it was Restnick one of them I think it's cut he basically says like like imagine there's a holocaust imagine you know there's a holocaust coming and you won't be able to protect your children so you kill them to avoid them going through that and I'm like okay I get it but

1:43:33that's a very extreme example to use that isn't applicable here and I get it in Lindsay's mind maybe the situation of leaving her children behind Patrick we marry some other woman is bringing up her children they're not doing it the way she would have wanted that is as bad as her children going into a holocaust because she's got a delusional distorted way of thinking but yeah it still felt it felt like a hard jump for me but I can't do me but I think that's the struggle and also by that reasoning Gerber's committed altruistic filisides you know yeah I guess not his kids but he'll be like altruistic murder and again but then you'd have to say he didn't know right from wrong he wasn't able to control I yeah it's very very very complicated and I get that so yes let's continue with Dr Kurt Calibram so he also raised concerns that Lindsay seemed to be quite selective when it came to remembering things at first he said that she claimed not to

1:44:35really remember to remember anything at all but then later gave him within the three days not later as in weeks later within the three days later gave him a very detailed account of what happened and the other thing that's quite confusing with Lindsay is that she also tells different doctors different versions of what happened that night hella brun also pointed out that in his experience it was unusual for someone to only hear the voice once and that too very specifically only during the commission of the crime he said if somebody told me that I would be quite suspicious of them again not saying it never happens but he's pointing it out from his experience hella brun explains that he thinks that Lindsay Clancy wanted to die all her life she'd accomplished anything that she wanted that she could through hard work and discipline but now nothing was working she was exercising she was eating right trying the meds going to doctors going to therapy but she just kept getting worse and so I think she was like what what else can I do and I think it was wearing her down that's what he says and hella brun also says that he doesn't indeed believe that Lindsay Clancy

1:45:40has bipolar 2 and that on top of the drugs that were exacerbating the situation as well as the lack of sleep he agrees that she definitely had a mental defect but he didn't agree that she did not know the wrongfulness or illegality of her actions or that she couldn't stop herself and that takes us to the Commonwealth's last ribbuttal witness Gregory Sarthoth the senior psychiatrist with the FBI's behavioral analysis group it's a big name he's got a very impressive resume he's treated thousands of people with psychosis and he has worked with up to seven women who have killed their children Lindsay Clancy told him that she first heard the command hallucination on the night of the murders when she was standing at the fridge getting some chicken nuggets out for the kids after she got off the phone with Patrick but Lindsay had told other people previously and included in her civil suit a different story that she heard the voice as soon as Patrick left the house at 5.15 pm and it's a strange discrepancy yeah and like I said there can be inconsistencies that mean

1:46:47nothing there can be inconsistencies that do mean something and we'll talk about this particular chicken nugget inconsistencies when Sarthoth says this reddington goes off at him and again look he's there to just poke holes in the things that the Commonwealth are saying and he basically points out that there are other mistakes that Lindsay has made in her retelling of events like for example he says that she told Sathoth that she had taken the knife that she had cut her wrist with and slashed the screen across the bedroom window before opening the window and jumping out but it turns out there was no screen there at all so he is like if she could make up something like that and say something that inaccurate maybe she's she's just inaccurate about when exactly the voice started like it does it mean anything and he also points out how Patrick got things wrong and how there are inconsistencies in Patrick's story again this made people like on the fucking internet go bloody crazy they were saying that oh my god look even Kevin Reddington Lindsay's defense is now saying that Patrick is lying because he actually killed the kids but Reddington never says that I think what

1:47:52I got from that is that and I wish he had been more clear he's very vague and I wish he'd been more but I think all he's really saying is Patrick made mistakes Lindsay made mistakes everyone makes mistakes everybody's story is inconsistent yeah so like that doesn't prove that Lindsay was lying to you on purpose do you know what I mean I think that he frames it in a way that threw some fuel on the fire on the internet for sure and I wish he hadn't done that but yeah but and also outside the courtroom that same day Kevin Reddington obviously being asked about what he meant by this openly dismiss the Patrick Clancy theory and was like that's not that that's not what I'm talking about but it wasn't clear and court to be fair this is another thing I had to add in people are pointing out all these like little inconsistencies in Patrick's story or challenging him on things that happen but when he explains it they're like so what we're just supposed to take your word for are we no of course not also look at the evidence one example of this is that Lindsay Clancy's

1:48:54pill bottles were found in his truck people immediately started claiming that this was proof that Patrick was drugging Lindsay because he was in possession of some of her medication he said I was told by prescribers when Lindsay's medication was changed please do not flush the pills down the toilet or throw them in the bin because they're hard core pharmaceuticals please bring them back into the hospital and we will dispose of them properly and he said so that's why the pills were in my truck a likely story yells the mob online and we've all seen the comments but what does the evidence say well Lindsay Clancy's talks report shows that she only had the drugs that she had been prescribed in her body to therapeutic levels only one drug was even slightly elevated and that was after a suicide attempt involving acclaimed drug overdose so where's the evidence of a secret drugging anyway Lindsay told Sathof that the voice was increasing in intensity

1:49:55telling her you have to kill yourself it's your last chance you have to kill the kids or they will suffer the voice didn't tell her what to do specifically but she led Dawson downstairs to the basement and then Cora and finally Callan Sathof stated that Lindsay had planned the whole thing by sending Patrick out of the house for as long as possible but was it really as long as it could have been if it was why did Lindsay call the pharmacy to check that they had the medicine why pre-order the food maybe you could argue that she ordered the food so that Patrick couldn't get out of going to Plymouth and then she added on the medicine run because it would add time and he just wouldn't refuse a request like that may I know maybe yeah again I don't know and like because I think what I said with the timings for getting them out it's kind of not really that long and it's also not really that short like nothing really makes that much sense but I don't know I buy the thing that she was like I have to because I'm like why pre-order the food be like order the food when

1:50:58you get there that will add some time he could have easily come up because she texted like half an hour before 45 minutes before dinner and then maybe he could have come up and been like now I can't really be bothered let's just like order a pizza or something and she can't have him do that like if she is in the mindset of I have to do this now then she has to ensure that he is going to leave maybe I don't know but basically Sap Off said the Lindsay Clancy story about the hallucinations in his opinion in his expert opinion didn't add up he thinks that Lindsay Clancy absolutely wanted she was lonely hopeless and felt like a burden on her family but he also said that she felt she had to kill the kids before she killed herself and while he said it was a serious attempt to take her own life he felt that there were elements of the suicide attempt that did not indicate psychosis like the fact that there were hesitation marks on her arm also he thought that it was odd that Ativan was the only drug that had helped Lindsay given that it's not an anti-psychotic

1:52:00and if she was suffering with psychosis why is that the only one that helped is his point but then for me it's also like maybe but also her biggest complaint was always a lack of sleep and if the Ativan was helping her sleep it made her just made her feel better and take the edge of some of the psychosis and like stop it getting worse and worse and worse like I don't know I don't know but that's what he said no I think I'm with you I think that it's pretty common knowledge that the fastest way to sense someone around the absolute bend is to deprive them of sleep it's also quite strange that when Reddington cross examines Stathof he challenged him on the fact that Stathof claimed that Lindsay had crushed up the pills that she took apparently Lindsay had told him that she crushed the pills and put them with some lemonade to swallow and Stathof said that Patrick reported seeing a wine tumbler in the bedroom with residue in it but that residue frustratingly was never tested but to Stathof Lindsay putting the pills in lemonade to take the bitter edge of was another sign that pointed

1:53:01away from psychosis and when all this is being said Reddington on cross examination goes fucking mad again asking Stathof what evidence was there that she'd crushed up the pills what evidence is there was there any residue found on the surfaces no there wasn't were there any instruments found that could have been used to crush pills no there weren't was there any mess at all indicating anything like that indicating that she had crushed pills no and that is true that was kind of listening to that me like but what are you saying like Lindsay told Stathof that she crushed the pills so you're saying she didn't crush the pills there and then because there's no residue you don't find any residue other than allegedly in the lemonade cup but that was never tested so we can't really say that for sure and so if you're saying there's no mess Reddington then you're basically pointing out that she must have tied it up which doesn't sound like someone who's in psychosis to me it actually makes me wonder if Lindsay Clancy knew that she wouldn't have long once Patrick left so did she crush up the pills before put them in the lemonade get it all ready to go

1:54:05and then tidy up so Patrick didn't accidentally see it before he left the house like I don't know yeah that kind of I didn't even think that before but that's what Reddington made me think because of what he said you know yeah and then there was evidence from Stathof that Lindsay absolutely knew right from wrong he points to the phone call in particular and the fact that she called Patrick back Lindsay had the presence of mind therefore to stop ignore the command voice call her husband act normally and not alert him to her distress is that why she changed her story from saying that she heard the voice as soon as Patrick left to later saying she heard it after this call and this is the chicken nugget problem right so she's saying at first to some doctors before Stathof says well that doesn't really make sense like how could you stop and the call is very important blah blah she says I heard it as soon as he left a 515 as soon as he left I heard the voice and I immediately

1:55:08started acting upon it when that is challenged and he said well it's very unusual to me that somebody in the middle of a psychotic break would stop act normal take a call and then go back into that state when like she's killing herself or say she didn't go back into that state and she killed herself because she realized what she'd done maybe but that isn't the narrative the narrative then shifts and she says Patrick left and then I was at the fridge getting chicken nuggets out and that and then I had the call with him and that's when I heard the voice because now she doesn't have to explain how she took a call in the middle of a psychotic break because now it started after the the the question around the chicken nuggets I'll just mention it because obviously people will this is when people again are point trying to point out inconsistacies and Patrick's story because he says when he left to go get their food because the food they were ordering was only for him and Lindsay that he saw when he left Dawson sitting on the sofa eating a bowl of chicken nuggets and green beans so then people are like well he obviously left much later them because if Lindsay had the psychotic break when she was standing at the fridge door opening up to get the chicken nuggets then how did he leave as Dawson was eating cooked chicken nuggets and I'm like I'm sorry have you met

1:56:11children I don't think she could have given him some chicken nuggets and then he was like I want some more bloody chicken nuggets and she went back to get some more like again what does that inconsistency yeah it doesn't it doesn't matter to me but you know whatever so let's wrap this up shall we what do we think happened it's a tough one it's a tough one I think Lindsay Clancy is clearly very very unwell does she have a mental disease or defect absolutely 100% yes at the time I 100% believe that and I can also absolutely believe that she was suicidal she told people repeatedly that she was but I do I'm not saying I struggle with the command hallucination I think if I was going to have any doubt and I'm saying beyond a reasonable doubt but any doubt it sits around the command hallucination right because listening to those medical experts and they came like in the 11th hour up until then I was all on board like not guilty by reason of insanity I was fully bought it south off and hella brunn other ones that made me question that even slightly right and I

1:57:18think it's because this idea of the command hallucination in their opinions only appearing once and specifically during the commission of the crime feeling very unusual very atypical now Andrea Yates for example because I am going to pull her into this talked about hearing commanding voices for months for months before what happened happened and also Andrea Yates tried very hard to resist I'm not saying Lindsay Clancy didn't try hard to get better we have established that she absolutely did but Andrea Yates tried very hard to resist the voice even trying to kill herself to stop herself from harming her children and her distortions were very wrapped up in religious delusions because of the environment she was in because of the preacher they were working with all of that stuff and it was very much focus around saving her children from hell here Lindsay Clancy was shown by everybody to be a very loving devoted mother right up until this happened so I guess my question is how did she obey a voice telling her just once for the first time to kill her children that quickly

1:58:23like the experts themselves said command hallucinations can be resisted especially when they are telling somebody to do something that goes so against their values and I think this is important because people on the internet seem to think oh if Lindsay Clancy had ppp or she was psychotic then she's legally insane right because we think psychotic immediately means that you have no control and that's just not necessarily true so I think that's the thing I struggle with is there's no mention of it before so I have to accept that it happened for the first and only time as she's saying on the night she killed but is it plausible that she listened that quickly and obeyed that quickly when it's something so unbelievable like murdering your three children I'm not saying she didn't I'm just asking the question that's the thing that I struggle with yeah I'm with you there I think and I suppose like if for arguments say that you know she is faking a level of mental illness to

1:59:29get a legally lower bar for responsibility like that's what she's going after I think if she was faking it I think she would say that she'd been hearing it for longer yeah and then it was this slow build and the fact she doesn't say that kind of makes me think she's telling the truth and again and I'm not saying I disagree with you my only question about that if you know play devil's advocate is does she not say that because she can't prove it because she never told anybody or wrote it down anywhere there's no evidence that she did so maybe she felt and again maybe it comes back to the fact that she just doesn't understand hallucinations that what we had to wait for medical experts to explain why it's a typical that you would only hear it once maybe she just didn't know maybe she just like I'll say that I heard it then and also there's all the stuff again this isn't a huge thing but one of her colleagues said that they were of sea labor and delivery nurses and apparently one time they had encountered a woman who had been wanting to kill herself or hurt herself when she was pregnant and after that woman was being treated and whatnot her colleague a

2:00:35woman named Margaret Hampe I think said to Lindsay gosh it it really makes me think of Andrea Yates and Lindsay Clancy said she didn't know who Andrea Yates was and her colleague Margaret told her and apparently Lindsay cried and said I can't imagine I can't believe a mother would her her children like that and I guess some people have been like that's where she got the idea that's where she got the idea to later say that you know she was hearing voices blah blah blah and it didn't match up in the way Andrews did because it wasn't genuine I'm not saying I think that yeah but that's that's the question mark there is she can't maybe maybe she realizes she couldn't say she heard it before because she never said it and maybe she didn't understand the importance of saying she told it before if you know what I mean yeah she's faking which I'm not saying she is I just really don't know and honestly I think that look if she has found not guilty by reason of insanity we are recording this before the verdict is out if she has found not guilty by reason of insanity or you know the equivalent of Massachusetts she will be going to a psychiatric hospital she will be going to a facility probably for the rest of her life because she killed three children now they can't

2:01:40put her in I've seen people be like if if I found out she was going to go to a facility for 25 years and that's what they sentenced her to I be fine they can't sentence her to 25 years in a facility but it's not that work it's cool an unusual punishment to put a knock insane person in a psychiatric hospital but I don't think they will ever let her out and she has never been allowed out and there's no good solution there's no good end to the story it's a fucking horrible story three kids are dead and I don't think whatever happens Lindsey Clancy will be allowed out whether it's in prison or whether it's in a psychiatric facility so I am not necessarily massively like this has to be the answer they have to find her guilty yeah I don't really feel that way I'm like it's all just sad I know it's it's so so sad and whatever whether it meets the legal requirements for diminished responsibility like for me I hope she does go to a psychiatric hospital rather than a prison I think that's where she needs to be so I do want that to happen for her for that reason alone

2:02:44but it's it seems very obvious to me that even if the command to hallucination wasn't there she killed her kids because she was really fucking ill and like that can also believe that that's that's it like I don't I don't think I I understand why the command to hallucination comes into all of it and like and maybe it is because she read up on Andrea Yates and she's like well that's what Andrea Yates said and then she got diminished responsibility like maybe but like at the heart of it she killed those children because she was really unwell and I just I want her to go to hospital I don't want her to go to a prison yeah and I think that's it is like and then people will be like well there's some element of like mental illness anybody who would kill children like that so then should they all just go not into a prison and I'm like again that's why the rules there about like did she know right from wrong in the commissioning of the crime and was she able to control herself which are very difficult questions that the jury are going to have to figure out and I don't envy them and I honestly don't know what what would happen I do

2:03:48believe they've added in it was very early this morning late last night so I didn't get to look into this properly because we have to record this today is that I think the judge is going to add in an extra possibility that the jury can vote for manslaughter but we were added an update into here once the verdict is read and I'll explain it. So overall I think I probably do agree that this could be termed an altruistic filiside and both the prosecution and the defense do end up agreeing on that but again what fate did she think she was saving her children from that was worth yeah taking their lives over I don't think anybody has satisfactorily answered that question and maybe they can't and maybe even Lindsay can't I don't know but yeah both sides both sides have agreed at the end that it's altruistic filiside is just that the commonwealth say it was altruistic filiside with no psychotic break and she was in control of that decision and the defense say it was altruistic filiside with a psychotic break and she wasn't in control that's it

2:04:51that's the difference essentially on the balance of probabilities I think it really is the most probable that Lindsay Clancy had a psychotic break but it is tricky when Lindsay changed her stories about when the voice started to try and fit in with the least pushback perhaps and explain how she managed to call Patrick back and act normally I also have to say that there's no history of violence no history of any issues and everyone was on her side everyone was on her side and that has to count for something too yeah I think that Lindsay Clancy was likely suffering immensely and you can you should we all can and should have empathy for a person like Lindsay Clancy in this situation but I also think it's dangerous to make excuses for murdering three children which is where I feel like the pendulum is sort of swung with one spectrum of people who are talking about this on the internet because it's dangerous for children but it's also dangerous for people with mental

2:05:52health conditions I think we can only hope that this case raises more awareness of the conditions that can affect women after they give birth and hopefully we can have a more serious conversation about postpartum mental health and also mental health treatment in general rather than just wait every 10 years for something horrible to happen but I think with this case it's kind of a weird combination of oversimplifying things like mental health and psychosis and people being like well if she had postpartum psychosis she must therefore be innocent because it's not guilty of reason and insanity and simultaneously over complicating things like little inconsistencies or looking for workarounds to evidence that doesn't favor like a certain theory so yes the trial is over but like I said we're recording this before the verdict goes out because I'm going on holiday but don't worry I think it will probably be out today you know and I'm going to take my mic with me and when there's an update I'll just record it and then I'll send it to the team and they can

2:06:52just add it in here yeah because we can just wrap this case up that way well I've got an update so the Lindsey Clancy case the trial is now officially over we are recording this on the 7th of September I can honestly say this was one of the most like complicated convoluted bizarre ends to a trial that I have ever seen in 10 years of doing this and normally I'd be like people would be saying this on the internet I'm like that's not quite normal actually like I wouldn't I wouldn't get that worried about it no this was fucking weird this was so weird now ultimately for anybody who's been paying attention who's been following along it's not the outcome that probably anyone was really hoping for because it has ended in a mistrial so I'm just going to run through a very quick like timeline of the jury deliberation situation so on the 27th of August the judge sent the jury out to start deliberations on the 1st of September they sent their first

2:07:55note back to the judge saying that they were deadlocked now the judge as you would expect told them to keep going go back in try again but the very next day on the 2nd of September the jury came back out again and said in a note we're deadlocked we've tried our best but we're deadlocked and the judge tells them to try again and this is where it gets complicated because essentially the 4 person of the jury sent a note to the judge saying a member of the jury is not able to follow the instructions on reasonable doubt and look we can't know anything for sure we can't know anything for sure but a lot of this took place like in notes that were not read out to the public and also inside bars between the Commonwealth and the defence and the judge so we don't have a lot of this information but we can make certain inferences based on who's pushing what right and I suspect and what most people suspect is that the jury deadlocked 11 to 1 so 11 people wanting or at least

2:08:57being satisfied in finding Lindsey Clancy not guilty by reason of insanity with one hold out juror refusing to agree so basically saying that they were not convinced that the Commonwealth had convinced them that she was not insane at the time and they're not allowed to say in that which way round it is because it could be seen as undue influence right or if they did the judges and allowed to tell us which way round it is though I think they're not allowed to know either now basically what Kevin Reddington said after this which is why we can assume it probably was 11 to 1 in favour of Lindsey Clancy is that he basically started calling on the judge to get involved to do something about this and what the judge did at first was he carried out individual wildeers with each of the jurors so basically all he's doing at this point is speaking to each of the individual jurors re-instructing them on what reasonable doubt means and basically asking each juror to make a statement to him under oath that they understand what reasonable doubt is and that they

2:10:01are applying the law as they should be now the note as we understand it goes on to say that the juror had made statements acknowledging doubt but refuses to quote apply it to the verdict as the law states and so this four person said so we cannot come to a unanimous verdict now after this happened and after the judge did his individual wildeers Kevin Reddington the defense attorney wanted the judge to take it a step further it kind of kicked off in court with Kevin Reddington basically accusing the judge of glossing over this issue which like I don't think is very fair but you know Kevin Reddington is as we have said he's certainly aggressive when it comes to his tactics he said that he wanted the judge to investigate the one hold out juror and by investigate he wanted him to drag this juror in front of the court under oath and berate him essentially on why he was a hold out like what it was that his thinking was big red

2:11:03no that's not forget you can't do that that is massively that would be unbelievable for a judge to interfere to intervene to that level with jury deliberations that is unbelievable because people are saying like one hold out juror what Kevin Reddington was implying was that he says like oh this four person is so brave to come forward speak for these 11 jurors call out this one hold out juror and essentially be be demanding action and saying that this person acknowledges doubt that they can have doubt because the judge actually already said the decision you have to make isn't based on the elimination of any possible doubt because that's not possible in any scenario or you can do is be working towards beyond a reasonable doubt and that person can acknowledge doubt but still say that they're not convinced enough that she was insane at the time and I get it the burden of proof is in on the defense is on the commonwealth but like I just think we don't know that the four person who's saying this is correct if you see what I mean just because they're saying that this juror

2:12:03is refusing to apply reasonable doubt to the verdict we don't know that that person is right in their interpretation of that if you see what I mean because we can't delve further into it so Kevin Reddington demanding that this hold out juror be questioned by the judge if that was done it would be incredibly coercive incredibly coercive if that person then changed their verdict and said okay fine I I side with you we now have a unanimous verdict that's just not how this game is played like that is ridiculous and imagine for a second it was the other way around because we're making inferences based on Kevin Reddington's persistence that this this juror this hold out juror is is called out by the judge so we can assume that this hold out juror is the one not not going along with not guilty by reason of insanity right imagine if it was the other way around that all of these people were like she is guilty and there was one person who was saying no I think she's not guilty by reason of insanity and the commonwealth was like you need to call that person that juror forward and by the judge and have them berated until they change their opinion to say guilty

2:13:05that would be an automatic appeal immediately in any world the the court system is already you know beyond a reasonable doubt from the commonwealth the burden of proof like it is already very weighted in many senses towards the defendant like you can't then just demand that this one juror is hauled in front of the judge and berated which is what Kevin Reddington essentially wanted so the judge very rightly said well no I'm not fucking doing that that's not happening and basically Kevin Reddington accused this juror because of the individual wadis that it happened where he was questioned about whether he was you know understood reasonable doubt all of this was willing to apply it to the law etc accused this juror of lying under oath which is like a pretty big accusation to also now the thing is right there are alternate jurors who could be called in and they would have to start deliberations again but to do that this hold out juror would need to be removed you can't just remove somebody because they're disagreeing with the majority the reasons for which he would remove a juror in like a valid way is that there would have to be evidence of let's say an inability or a lack of like desire or willingness by this juror to deliberate so say

2:14:11the jury had gone in to deliberations it had been a few hours and then 11 of them are like yeah not guilty by reason and honestly this one person regardless of what they're saying they're refusing to participate they're refusing to deliberate they're like I know in my mind what the answer is I'm not talking to any of you then yes you could say this person is refusing to take part in the process they're refusing to deliberate and that could be grounds to remove them they were in there for four five days and there is no evidence and nothing in that letter that says that this person refused to deliberate so that immediately goes away this seems to be down to a difference of opinions between the jurors that is not grounds for misconduct to remove a juror it's literally just not the other reasons you could remove a juror is things like you had proof that they were watching tiktok or on social media reading about this case they'd been talking to a journalist they had been I don't know talking to their their partner about it or their grandmother about it getting their opinions like they were under like third party influence like external influence something like that

2:15:12there's no evidence of that and if there is no one said it like the the four person hasn't said that the only thing the four person is saying is that they're basically refusing to accept what we're saying to them which is the nitty-clanty not guilty by reason of insanity so I think disagreeing itself is not an issue when it comes to this you have to prove that this person is deliberately involved in some form of misconduct or deliberately refusing to participate in the deliberation process of which there is no evidence so like I said the judge refused it and basically the judge sent them in again to deliberate one last time after this note and this is the final time the judges allowed to do this under Massachusetts law the jury went in but a few hours later they were like no we can't we can't do it this can't be done we're done and I think the jury did try their best they sent a note to the judge saying it's with a heavy heart that we are unable to reach a verdict and so the judge was ready to declare a mistrial but it still wasn't over because Kevin Reddington was not having it and he decided to basically make an emergency appeal and

2:16:16he requested a stay from the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts and the judge gave them one hour one hour to make this happen to see if they could get the stay and they got it and not only did they get the stay from the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts they also got a hearing and this hearing is basically and whether Commonwealth and the defence would speak to one of the justices of the court put forward their case and argue their case for why you know this this jury needs to be removed and they need to proceed with this trial and not start all over again and basically Kevin Reddington said all the things that we said that basically that this person is refusing to apply the laws of like what they have been instructed around reasonable doubt to the verdict they are refusing to do that and they've acknowledged out and they get they're still saying this now the Commonwealth said no this is a dispute between the jurors there's no evidence that this person lacks impartiality has any sort of bias that wasn't already rooted out under any sort of external influence or has an inability or is refusing to deliberate so essentially

2:17:20at the end of that the stay was lifted the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts was like no you know what we don't see a problem here and the stay was lifted and with that judge Sullivan was officially allowed to or was able to declare an official mistrial a very very wild end to this story but I think it's probably only just the start so what will happen next I don't think the common wild they're going to drop this and so I think they will they will go after them and be glad to see again and chances are there will be another trial where we will go through all this all over again probably next year again like I said it's an outcome that nobody really wanted because now it's going to cost millions to do another trial that's a lot of extra court hours all those witnesses are going to have to be called again and if you think about this this case was so confusing in certain parts like in terms of the stories that were told in terms of like which version to believe of like things that had happened that day the timeline etc now we're going to push another year

2:18:21down the line I just think this is going to become very very complicated next year but it is what it is like this is the system and that's how it works I hope that the Commonwealth learned some lessons from the mistakes they made in this first trial and do a better job in the next trial I think Kevin Reddington he's already said he's going to defend Lindsey Clancy again and let's see what happens now I don't know I think a lot of people are either very on the side of this one hold out juror or people are very anti this hold out juror accusing them of basically having caused this mistrial etc etc I don't know I think it doesn't mean much to me that people are like this hold out juror express some doubt but still ultimately landed on the side that they didn't think that Lindsey Clancy was not guilty by reason of insanity as I said I think you can have doubt it just you can't be beyond a reasonable doubt and then in fact them saying they have some doubt makes me feel like they did listen and that they did deliberate and they did think about it and just because they disagree with the majority I don't know I just think like that's not

2:19:22a reason enough to be vilified and it's just like what has run through this whole thing of people you know being pro anti this you have no idea what was even said you don't know if this person is an intelligent person you don't know if they're a stupid person you don't know if they're good bad ugly like you don't know any of those things the jury was also shown a lot of information and evidence that we didn't get to see would we also know that to be true so we also know that this trial is incredibly polarizing online so is it that much of a shock that amongst 12 people the one people one person didn't agree like is that that shocking like it's not about shocking to me if okay let's let's assume that the system that you know we have called multiple times not fit for purpose but let's just assume that no one on the jury saw any social media that we sort of have to assume that because that's what the rules are supposed to be right I think like the way it's worded of like they are not applying beyond a reasonable doubt within an actual legal context makes

2:20:23it sound like the jury's been like but what if it was the polo mean to know what I mean like it's like it sounds like what is being echoed throughout all of the like social media commentary on this of like yeah but what if and so I think I assumed wrongly because I have no information but my like initial reaction to that was like oh well they're just going to be being like oh but the discrepancies you know what I mean like well but we're out of fucking know if that's true no we don't know we don't know what what convinced this person or has failed to convince this person that Lindsey Clancy was not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and I think personally and again I know this is a case where people have a lot of strong opinions but personally for me and I said this at the start of episode one that we did on this I said that I had changed my mind multiple times throughout the course of the like research that I did for it and honestly if I was sat on the trial I don't know and again like I said the jury had was shown more evidence than we were there were certain things that were were not shown to the public and for which I am honestly quite grateful but I mean like at the start

2:21:25when I just read about this case when I just read about it I read about everything Lindsey Clancy went through in the lead up to it all the help she tried to get everything like that I was like oh my cot like yes I'm going into this with an open mind of course I am it's going to be a big trial but in my mind I was already thinking I'd be lying if I said I wasn't already thinking yes she probably was insane at the time like that's what that makes sense it feels like another Andrea Yates and then as a trial went I was like okay I'm convinced I'm more and more convinced and then I was like what the fuck is a commonwealth doing and then I was like oh the defense and then I was like really was in the last two days it was in the last two days when the when what I had been waiting for the medical experts to take the stand and speak as to what they believed had happened that's what I was waiting for and honestly that's when for me I ended up in a place where I didn't feel like I was confident one way or another and the thing is yes I accepted if I was on the jury the burden of proof is on the commonwealth and so therefore if the commonwealth hasn't proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt that she was saying at the time I would have to vote not guilty by reason of insanity so that's

2:22:26what they're saying about this person they're saying they have expressed doubt and if they have doubt the the commonwealth has failed to prove it to them beyond a reasonable doubt so therefore they should agree with us and say not guilty by reason of insanity they've expressed out but they're still refusing to apply reasonable doubt to the verdict and therefore they're still saying and no they think she's guilty which isn't correct but again we don't know we don't know what actually was said in that in that situation we don't know how people are interpreting these things it's not like a legal expert has sat in there listened to all of the discussions and then said yes that person is not to apply reasonable doubt to this like we're taking the word of lay people again who are all emotionally invested in this because they've sat through a horrific trial that has gone on for weeks and weeks and weeks and then they've sat through like 40 hours of deliberation and people might use this as an example like look to do I jury trials don't work I'm like nothing's perfect but I still firmly believe in jury trials and I firmly believe that these people did try their best to do their duty I think they wanted to get an answer at the end of this I just think they couldn't get that but what would I have done in that situation do I have doubt what do I think of

2:23:26the whole Lindsey Clancy case because again it's changed again and again and again and I've really thought about this since we finished recording if I really focus it on the thing that makes me doubt that Lindsey Clancy was in saying I do not doubt she's mentally ill let's just make that very clear I do not doubt that she is mentally ill but mental illness and even postpartum psychosis or even just psychosis or bipolar depression whatever it might have been that was going on with Lindsey Clancy they are medical terms the legal term of insanity is not a medical term it's a strictly legal term and under that fits only very certain strict specifications for what that means right it means that she either didn't know what she was doing or she didn't know the what she was doing was morally or legally wrong or in Massachusetts the additional bit the mental defect that she had was such that she couldn't stop herself from doing it i.e. there was a compelling command to lose nation or a voice that made her and again as we heard from the experts that's not always the case you can resist those voices i think the thing for me that made me doubt even in the slightest bit and yes the doubt is there for sure i can't say one more another what actually happened i i don't feel that

2:24:29strongly and i don't mean that sound like i don't care i mean i i don't know yeah is because because if you look at Lindsey Clancy's journals right comparison to someone i can't read yet i can't read yet repeatedly she told repeated people she told her parents she told her husband she told her doctors i am hearing voices i'm hearing voices they're telling me to kill the children she tried very hard to resist those voices even going so far as to trying to kill herself from doing it to stop herself from doing it if you read Lindsey Clancy's journals and i did actually go away and look again at them after we recorded episode two there's no mention in there ever of symptoms that sound like psychosis there's symptoms that sound like paranoia depression suicide ideation hopelessness negative thoughts all of those things are very present in there like extreme depression it feels like but in her private journal she still doesn't talk about any symptoms that kind of seem like she's slipping into a break with reality and then the fact that she doesn't tell anybody about that and again we talked about all the reasons why someone might keep that secret i completely agree with you i get all of that she was in a very precarious situation but then it comes to the point that after the murder she is then like i heard this voice i heard

2:25:32this voice once and only once during the commission of the crime and then i never heard it again that to me again based on what some of those doctors especially dr. harburn said about the idea that it's very unusual a very atypical that a person hears that voice once and only once and then acts on it immediately especially when it's such an extreme act like murdering your three children and then also the thing that dr. sathoff said which is that as soon as it happens as soon as you follow through on what the voice says that it's curative that the voice disappears that's also very atypical i can't ignore those things those things are the things like the bits of grit that are sticking in my mind about questioning it and then finally the part about for me lindsey clancy at first saying that she heard the voice as soon as patrick left the house and then when she's questioned on how it was again a typical that somebody would be able to stop ignore the voice make a phone call seem totally normal and then go back to that state she then changes the story and says it happened after she put the phone down after that call with patrick that i'm not going to lie that does make me question it what would i have done if i was jory would the commonwealth

2:26:36approving it to me beyond a reasonable doubt i don't know and if they didn't i have to it with if it's not moral certainty i have to say not guilty but those things rub in my mind and i can't help but feel as somebody who's not thank god got the duty of that jury to probably now fall in line with the idea that i think lindsey clancy was incredibly sick i think she was very very depressed i think she got herself into a position of i am going to kill myself two day it has to be today i need to do this i need to get it over with i need out and i think she made the decision that she wanted to kill those children because she could not leave them behind to have to face life without her to have to be raised without her trust other people to do it maybe even the feeling of somebody else doing it it just didn't start to sit right with lindsey the guilt and maybe she thought they'll they'll go to heaven and i won't have to worry about it and it will just be done and i think she did it based on that i don't personally think that she wasn't saying so that's maybe why i don't i don't feel like i want to villainize this whole doubt juror even though i really don't want to

2:27:37fucking go through a trial again next year but also who am i like they're the ones that have to go through this trial again it'd be a fresh jury surely no sorry i mean they are in the car and patrick and land like everybody else involved in this whole situation got it got it but yeah that's where i land after starting in one place going on a lot of journeys with this i think that is where i now land based on the expert evident and lindsey clancy's own words her own journals and the things that she was saying i don't think she wasn't saying i think she was very very mentally ill but it's not illegal in that state to kill yourself but it is illegal to kill your children you don't get to make that decision however you can rationalize that or however you might have thought it was for the best because of your mental mental disease and i i can't move past that so i i don't blame this juror if i'm if i'm perfectly honest some people are saying they don't think they'll be a trial maybe the commonwealth will take a plea deal i don't know it's a very high-prior if our case i don't know if they will do that and it's oh that's the other thing that was fucking crazy two other things that are fucking crazy just to finish off this update sorry is did you see the woman who was trying

2:28:37to film the jury trying to fill the jury to intimidate them um basically being like you know i'm going to put your faces all over the internet and that woman has now been arrested yeah fucking good and then very very tragically in the last couple of days a woman who had been online talking a lot about the Lindsey Clancy case seemed highly highly engaged at this case very much on the Lindsey Clancy is not guilty by reason of insanity poor Lindsey Clancy maybe even Patrick Clancy did it i don't really know in illinois she's now been arrested for killing her two-year-old son oh my god yeah it's all pretty horrific really and i really think that like so so so so few of the people i have spoken to about it are aware that the trial isn't about whether she did it or not it's about why like it's insane to me my sister was like do you think she did it or was like yes like what the fuck is the problem when it's like people are skim reading the headlines and don't know exactly what trial is about and i think that there's whole concept of what is mental illness

2:29:42in a medical sense yes and the fact insanity is a legal definition that i have i'm not going to define again because we've talked about it at fucking ad nauseam but like they are separate concepts you can be mentally ill and you can be not insane you can even have psychosis and still not be declared to be legally insane like there is such a distinction between these two things and i also think one of the things are so fucking frustrating is looking at the comments sections of some of these things some people are like she never even can fester this she never even can fester like there is a fucking trial go it that's finally thankfully ended about whether she's not guilty by reason of insanity or not do you think we would have got to a trial two years after the murders if Lindsay Clancy hadn't told multiple people that she killed them including our own fucking defense council there's people literally on the internet commenting say she never confessed patrick told the police that she did it yes he did and then the police would have interviewed her and then the prosecution would have talked to her and then the defense would have talked to her and she would have had stand in front

2:30:43of a judge and enter her fucking plea what became so apparent to me over the weekend what is so sad is like yes we are all Lindsay Clancy that could have been any of us but it has been completely missed by this like that what everyone should be talking about is postpartum psychosis care not being good enough and we should all be learning about how it can just happen to anyone and it doesn't mean you're a bad person but xyz like all of those things nobody's talking about those things like it's and it is really like i i found it to be very upsetting this whole case has been very very upsetting and the discourse around it has been very very low level this is fundamentally the problem when you're trying to deal with a topic of this magnitude in excessively short form content right where people are just like snippets snippets snippets snippets snippet and it just is like that's not the truth it's really scary it's really scary the number of people that are falling for this kind of nonsense and reading the comments and like yes i'm glad to also see the counter comments where

2:31:44people are just like arguing back but i'm also like oh i can't i can't deal with this but yeah it feels like too much of this started to feel like did Lindsay Clancy do it or not that's not what the trial was about the trial was about was she insane at the time or not and i didn't think i would but i'd have landed i think finally at a place where i don't think she was insane personally and people don't have to agree with me and that's absolutely fine and i think you can still have empathy for Lindsay Clancy if it were in my thinking now that i think she chose to do that she chose to take those three children's lives of which she had absolutely no right to do she wanted to kill herself that is always an incredibly tragic thing to lose anybody by suicide let alone a mother of three children who who's leaving that who are those children would have suffered without her she was right about that but she had absolutely no right to take their lives i think we can have empathy but you also need accountability we can have justice but yes we should have mercy and like i said in episode two you know i don't i i'm not gonna go out and campaign against

2:32:47if Lindsay Clancy is found not guilty by reason of insanity and put it aside get your hospital for the rest of her life but that's just personally where where i think i'm at with this case i just i want her to be in hospital man not in prison that's the only thing i care about i think the sort of semantics of what is legally insane is not not top of my list like i just i just want her to be in hospital again yeah i'm not gonna campaign against it anyway that's it guys whatever like it's done it's a mistrile i understand why it happened people might be angry they might think this shows that the jury system is broken or the system is broken i don't think it does i think it shows that one person could hold onto their you know they're they claim their sincere held beliefs and who are my question whether they're sincerely held or not i don't know how i would feel in that case but i am very sad that we are going to have to do this again next year but let's forget about it until then i actually really wanted to end this episode with what Patrick Clancy wrote about his children in that open letter and he spoke about each of them

2:33:52separately but i honestly couldn't i couldn't even copy and paste it into it was making me so like i listened to i listened to um somebody reading it out while i was like cleaning the house and i was like i literally had to stop because i was crying so badly it's a horrific not horrific what he says what he says is unbelievably beautiful and i just think obviously the people that think he's a psychopath and that he's just lying nothing will change their minds i will leave a link i know it would be more powerful if we read it but i don't have the strength i will leave a link to the open letter that he wrote and um maybe we can put up maybe we can put it up on our social media so people can read it there but uh yeah it was it was really really heartbreaking especially when he said that ah callen probably held on for the three extra days to try save him and i'll just like fuck it up that's enough of that let's go on holiday oh man

2:34:52yeah so sad so sad um really is really is so sad well yeah they go that's that guy it's that is um okay civil and declancy and corridorcent and callen oh my god i'm a nurse i need to go home let's leave and we will be back next week for something yep that hasn't got dead babies in it hopefully but you never fucking know i can't remember oh we have ears got dead baby and uh i'm not saying it's called nipaltholomew oh no good luck with that guys we'll see you later goodbye it's fall in jeep country and during the drive into fall sales event get a great deal on four

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