Life for Charles "Sonny" Burton: Act now to Save Sonny!

0:00Mr. Burton's Sonny Burton's and I just call him Sonny because that's what he goes by his friends call him Sonny and and he is Sonny. His case is one of the most compelling cases for clemency that you have ever heard or are likely to ever hear and I don't believe that's overselling it in any way, shape or form. If Governor Ivy does not intervene Thursday night of this week they will suffocate to death a 75-year-old man in a wheelchair who is a grandfather who never killed anyone. Over a million Americans face sentencing every year and it will be the most important day of their lives but we don't fully understand the system how broken it is and what we can do to make it better. I'm Doug Passon. I'm a 25-year criminal defense lawyer and a sentencing expert. My goal is to bring more awareness, more fairness and more humanity to the sentencing process.

1:00So are you ready? Then let's get set for sentencing. Hey everybody Doug Passon coming to you from the home studio today actually not studio 3553 and it's a really important podcast and I'm glad we're doing it but I hate that we have to do it and because this is set for sentencing and we talk about all things sentencing and you know we've done this before and we're doing it again today talking about the ultimate sentence, a death penalty capital case and we're doing it in a really really precarious moment in time for a gentleman by the name of Charles Sonny Burton who is set to be executed this coming Thursday at March 12th and I have with me today three incredible warriors for justice who comprise substantial portion of Sonny's team although there's an army of people out there advocating for him Matt Schultz lead council from the federal defenders office in Montgomery, Alabama they

2:07call it the capital habeas unit we call it the chew welcome Matt thanks so much for being here today. Thank you for having me yeah absolutely Donna Veneville that's right is second chair also an attorney at assistant fat she's an assistant SPD down there you're in Montgomery as well yeah yes okay and my old friend Elena and Cleone we've been we've been we've been hanging out a lot over the last year working on another matter and doing sentencing filmmaking endeavors and Elena made an incredible video for this case so we're going to talk about that too hi Elena. Good to have you guys here again I'm so sorry for the circumstances and before we dig in and I'm going to say this a few times but there's a reason we're doing this and that is because we want people to engage and so there's a lot of things that you can do and I'm going to tell you up front

3:08I'll tell you again later but you know I think the easiest thing would be a call or an email to the governor of the state of Alabama kiv her phone number is three three four two four two seven one zero zero and you can send her messages you know if you go to the website there's a great website www.charlssunnyburton.com that's sunny is so and and why by the way Charles sunny Burton BRT oh n.com and there's a link there to contact the governor she's on the Facebook's and the Instagram's under kiv so you could find her there but she needs to hear she needs to hear from us and and she needs to hear from us now because like I said time's running out so who wants to tell me I'm going to throw it out to anybody here to tell tell tell the audience the story of this case what was what was the who is sunny and what was he what was he sent sent

4:12to death row for I guess I'll do that just because I've been doing these interviews quite a bit over the last few days you got it down right yeah well or at least I've talked about it so many aspects of it this is an incredibly layered case but what I guess the best way to frame it and put get this set out there is to say the following in law school when you're in trial practice one of the first things they teach you and this is also very intuitive is don't oversell your case if you've got an accountant and a police officer who are going to testify in your case say you've got an accountant a police officer don't tell him you have 16 nuns from a monastery in the pope you know don't oversell your case even in that concept even knowing that I can state to you that mr. Burton's sunny Burton's and I just call him sunny because that's what he goes by his friends call him sunny and and he is sunny his case is one of the most compelling cases for clemency that you have ever heard or are likely to ever hear and I don't believe that's overselling it in any

5:15way shape or form so let's kind of jump into the main bullet point facts and then we can get deeper into the facts of the case starting right out of the gate mr. Burton did not kill anyone and that of course immediately grabs people when they think wait a minute I mean I thought the death penalty was life for a life i for an i2 for two no here mr. Burton did not kill anyone it doesn't mean that he didn't have some responsibility in the role as to what happened in the death but he did not have any activity or any participation in the death at all he was actually outside of the store during a robbery when the shooting took place one of his co-defendants fired a shot and killed one of the customers innocent customer dug battle who did nothing more than just stop in to buy some auto parts and he lost his life in this in this robbery of an auto zone store however mr. Burton was already out of the building when the shooting took place he didn't even hear the shot go off he did not even see the shot go off shockingly both mr. Burton and the shooter were convicted

6:19of death however here's the real p.a. there is a stance of the of the whole situation years later the shooter had his sentence overturned in the courts the state in appealing that conceded on the record that to have this situation where the lesser culpable individual who did not pull the trigger is remaining on death row while the more culpable person is being taken off is and and this is their their words arguably unjust i would submit that people of reason all across the political spectrum and we are seeing this all across the political spectrum including from very conservative republicans saying number one the government should be consistent on this and number two no government even people who support the death penalty generally agree with this this concept that no government should ever exercise that most awesome and most final and most irreversible and most severe of penalties unless that government can stand up and declare with

7:25absolute confidence that this is a just act well they can't do that now they have not gone on the record saying this is unjust they only went on the record saying it's arguably unjust but if they're saying it's arguably unjust clearly there is a taint of injustice here and they need to be called out on that and i am calling them out on that i called it out in pleading and i'm calling it out on every airway if i can call out on i'm calling it out right here the state's position on this is that this is arguably unjust and yet they are prepared if if governor ivy does not intervene Thursday night of this week they will suffocate to death a 75 year old man in a wheelchair who is a grandfather who never killed anyone and if that in and of itself is not a great enough case there are so many other factors here this is such a strong case for clemency that even sick even people who strongly support the death penalty are coming out in favor of clemency and that's

8:26no better demonstrated by the fact that six of the eight living jurors who voted to convict and sentence mr. Burton to death now support clemency three of them are specifically asking the governor to commute his sentence stating that they would never have voted for a death in the first place had they known the shooter would not face that same fate wow and so beyond that if you may if i may Please, please, please. Please, please. I know it. You get these wows. And then there are more wows to come. I've got another wow for you. The victim's daughter has asked for clemency, requested a meeting with the governor, and has asked the governor spare his life. And she has forgiven him, and there has been reconciliation there. If that is not a powerful factor, I guess. Yeah. It's either it's another. And there are even other incredible things here. There's a little story I can tell you about Sonny. You asked about him, like what kind of person is Sonny? And this factors in, too, because this

9:28shows you the type of character of an individual who they're looking to execute this Thursday. This part will shock you as well. Sonny earlier in his life, and he has been in and out of prison his whole life. He was basically homeless, leaving his abusive father when he was 15. None of that excuses ever anything. But it paints a picture of his life. And then he got involved with the streets, and all that sort of thing. And he was in and out of prison. At one point earlier in his life, when he was in prison, he called home to his beloved wife, say hello. And the police officer picked up the phone, and informed him that his wife had been stabbed to death. That's how Mr. Burton found out that his wife had been murdered. The individual who murdered his wife, he was convicted of, and sentenced. But he was sentenced to life. 35 years after his wife's killer murdered his wife, he came up for parole.

10:29And over the course of those years, although Sonny hated the man at first through his Muslim faith, he worked through that. And he brought himself to forgive that man. And when he received paperwork asking if he would oppose the parole, he chose not to do so. And so really, now you look at this and you think, absent the governor's intervention. Thursday of this week, the state of Alabama will commit an execution that the state of Alabama itself has described as arguably unjust. And they will suffocate to death a 75-year-old wheelchair-bound grandfather who never killed anyone and who he himself essentially commuted the sentence of his own wife's killer. Powerful probably. You're right. There were several wild moments. And you know, this is important. I'm sure most people listening to podcasts are non-favor of the death penalty. But this is important, even for the people

11:30who are in favor of the death penalty. And if you like, if you believe in it, then you want it to occur in really unimpeachable circumstances. Otherwise, the entire notion of the death penalty is called into question. You can't have it for the ones that you really want it for if it doesn't work properly. And this is just such a quintessential example. How does the co-defendant, what's the basis for him getting his sentence turned from death into life? Oh, on that, he had his sentence overturned based upon a different issue. Obviously, everyone is dealing with different issues. His had to do with trial council ineffective assistance at the sentencing phase, not presenting mitigating evidence. OK. He said, put on. However, I would point out a couple of things there. Number one, the state could still

12:31have sought another recency. He was simply ordered another recency. They still sought another death sentence, but they chose not to. They settled the case for life without parole. So the state conceded to have him resentance to life without parole. And you were talking about the conservatives should be opposed to this as well. They are. I mean, we have had a shockingly a couple of weeks ago. I went on the local conservative afternoon talk radio show from 12 to 3 every day. By halfway through the show, the gentleman posting the show agreed with me 100% that this should not go forward. And a week later, he published an article on a very conservative website, 1819 news stating that he strongly supports the death penalty. But if he were governor Ivy, he would commute the sentence. And this is absolutely wrong. Other very conservative governors in other states who support the death penalty strongly, including governor's abbot and parry of Texas, have commuted sentences in similar situations

13:31where the lesser, hopeful individual was about to be executed. And the more culpable had been spared. And so back those to what you were talking about with the integrity of the judicial system. The governors responsibly recognized that to execute someone in this situation would undermine the integrity of their state's judicial system. And governor Stitt just did it in Oklahoma for a remain would. I worked on that case. I did the video for that case. And I think he only ever did that. He's only done that one other time and the entire time he was there. So if these, yeah, these very, very conservative governors in very, very conservative states know the truth about the felony murder rule then so too should governor Ivy. I hope that she does. And you know, it's just so random on so many levels. So he doesn't know, he's not even there for the shooting. Presumably doesn't know that there was ever going to be. That wasn't a plan. He didn't order. He had nothing to do.

14:32You've done this to a great extent, Matt, about just the human side of Sony. And his character, we haven't really talked about his health issues. You mentioned he's 75 and wheelchair bound. If you go to the website, there's a picture he's using. He's got this helmet on and he's, so just tell me, somebody tell me more. You've told me more about the Sony who he is and what he's, what challenges he has physically in custody. Well, I have two stories that first sort of tell you about who he is and not only who he is, but sort of what he means to different people on our team and then also about his health. The first one, as I was saying, I wouldn't, by any means say, I'm the closest person to him on this team. I think all of us are exceptionally close to him because it is impossible to spend more than an hour with him and not feel close to him.

15:33Matt was the person who introduced me to Sony a little less than four years ago. And so he brought me to home and to death row. And I know the general public doesn't, they probably have a perception of what the death row inmate will be. And I mean, most of my clients would defy that perception, but Sony is in a legal of himself. And very close to sitting down with Sony and Matt. And of course, Matt, I'm also just getting to know because I've just joined organization, but you could tell immediately that they were more than client and attorney. You could tell that they were dear friends. And so Sony, you know, meeting a new person, he's so excited to tell me about all of the adventures he's had in his life. Because when he wasn't in prison, he was, you know, living a very full and exciting life. And he's telling me about adventures, but he's primarily telling me about the two loves

16:36of his life, which were Carolyn Dimple's Chambers and his first wife and had he Bradford. So Carolyn was the wife that Matt mentioned who was murdered. So he's telling me about them and he's telling me about all of the, you know, beautiful things that he loved about them, the things that worked so beautiful. But he still loved those things. All of my new and profound things, he loved about these two women. And there's something about Matt. Is that Matt a year or two before I met him, lost the love of his life, Andrea, to cancer. And so anyway, as our visit is wrapping up, sunny, you know, as maybe older people do. And it's probably not even about that. It's also just about the spirit of generosity. You know, I think he wanted to impart a piece of wisdom to me. And so he said to me, quite intentionally,

17:37he said, you know, the best thing in life is to find a woman who loves you for everything you are and everything you're not. And then he looked across the table of Matt. And in that moment, it was literally as if this connection like just became visible, it was so strong. It just like appeared and I could see it, I could see their eyes locked. And then sunny said to Matt, we both know what that is. And that's what of the memories I will always treasure. And to see that bond between him and Matt, who are two such different people. But I think sunny has a bond with that with each and every one of us. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Thank you, Matt. Well, as far as his health, you know, sunny was stricken with rheumatoid arthritis, you know,

18:38which is a crippling disease. That's primarily why he's in a wheelchair. You know, his limbs are very, he doesn't have a lot of feeling in his limbs and so his legs will give out on him. Anyway, when he was first, well, I guess when the rheumatoid arthritis was just aggressively invading his body and his immune system, it got to the point because prior to the sunny could walk, you know, he was reasonably healthy. And the doctors at home and we're telling him, we don't think you're ever going to walk again. And again, this story is about his health, but it's about something bigger, which is about, you know, again, our clients, the things, the extraordinary things that our clients are capable of. So sunny had a friend on death-throw-name carry and carry, you know, different than sunny. And a piece about carry is he came from

19:41an extremely violent family abuse between parents, abuse between parents and child abuse between siblings. Everybody was hurting everybody. So anyway, the sunny gets this, you know, this, I almost want to call it diagnosis, but it's beyond the diagnosis. It's like, it's an additional punishment. You'll never walk again. And when carry finds out, carry says, can I curse? Yes. He says, bullshit. And carry was also a max client. And so he went to Matt and he said, Matt, like, there must be like something we can do. Like, maybe we can do physical therapy. He's like, I know, you know, these, whatever's at home, and aren't going to give him physical therapy, but maybe I can learn. And so Matt sends carry some physical therapy exercises, you know, manuals about physical therapy. And so carry sets forth to figure out

20:43how he can get his friend, Sunny Burton walking again, and carry started administering these exercises. And Sunny was able to walk. He wasn't able to walk far, but he was able to walk within his own cell. And be able to have some autonomy. And, you know, and this is a remarkable story because it's a story about, you know, not just Sunny, but all of us that were capable of change, you know? People like to think of our clients as the worst of the worst, but we're all capable of rehabilitation. And this is an example of it, you know, for so much of carry's life, human touch was about trauma. And his own hands had become vessels of violence. But because of his love for Sunny, and because of that potential on all of us

21:44to change over time, his, when Sunny needed him, his hands became vessels of healing. And, you know, but it doesn't surprise me that that Sunny could inspire that. I think Sunny had a piece of inspire in him. He is exceptional. Amazing. Everyone has preconceived notions about people who have on death row, and they are, they're incapable of that sort of light. And it's just not true. I agree with you. Every person I've ever worked with on death penalty cases, nothing like the stereotype. And it never ceases to amaze me that in a darkest place, in the darkest circumstances, you can imagine in this lifetime that these human beings are still able to find some hope and some lights and goodness and caring and love.

22:48And Donna, you've been very silent, and that's my fault. So I'm gonna make, I'm gonna throw it to you, but here's one thing I learned about Donna. We just met today, but in a formal life, she worked at ARC, advancing real change for Dr. Liz Varkassian, right? And I don't know if you know this, but this episode of, of set presencing is like, I think episode 131, Liz was one. She was the first person I wanted to have on this podcast because she's such a force of nature. So I know if you came up under her tutelage, you two must be a force of nature. And you know, Liz is famous for saying, and she said it on episode one, when people talk about how broken the system is, she says, no, system's not broken. Says the system is working exactly as it's designed to work. And our job as lawyers and advocates and lawyers for justice is to disrupt that system.

23:53And that resonated with me and it has throughout the years that I've known her. So anyway, I wanted to throw it to you, Donna, say hi, and also, what did we miss? What do we need to know about Sonny, his case and everything that's happening? You know, my favorite thing about Sonny is his smile. He's always sitting in there just grinning when he sees us, but also when he sees people that work at home in prison, which, you know, that's a little bit counterintuitive. But the thing is, the people down there love him too. They love him back. I know they can't say it. I know they can't come out and, you know, be a public about them. You mean the staff when you say the people down there? Like the guards and that's the I.M. And guards nurses all the staff, like anybody that encounters that man has a smile on their face. And that just speaks to who he is as a person. People go out of their way to make sure that he is taking care of.

24:55And I say people there to mean the staff and the other incarcerated guys. They all know that he's elderly. They all know that he has health problems. They all know that he's frail and that he needs help. And they all look out for each other. And especially him with his, you know, vulnerable condition. And so that's all, you know, I wanted to add about Sonny, which I think that these folks covered a lot of that. And you asked me, what else is missing, I guess, that I can add? I can just add that being here in Montgomery, I couldn't believe that KIV, Governor Ivy, set a date for this execution. We submitted this clemency application the same day that we responded to the state of Alabama's motion to set an execution date, which was December 10th. I remember that day very well. We had two things going at the same time. And we were like, who is going to stop this? Somebody's going to stop this. I personally still can't believe nobody has stopped this

25:59because he is not guilty of capital murder. And this case, yes, I did see something, you know, Governor Ivy's spokesperson did issue a statement. I believe on Friday saying that this case has been reviewed nine times already by appeals courts. And that may be true, but that leaves out one important fact that we pointed out in the clemency petition. I know, and I think in other, you know, interviews and things that Matt and other folks on the team have done, yes, the courts reviewed the Senate nine times. But when it gets to the federal court, if that claim was rejected in the state court, there's this level of deference that is hard to overcome because the federal courts cannot intervene, you know, when the state courts have spoken on an issue, they defer to the state court interpretation of federal law. And so if you look at, you know, the district court judge in the federal habeas proceedings,

27:00if you look at his order, which is quite lengthy, you'll see that there are a couple of times on major issues that he said, well, I have to defer to the state courts. I can't change, you know, the factual findings below. That's not to say he wouldn't have granted relief. So it's not as clear-cut as they're making it out to be. Yes, it's been reviewed nine times, but not fresh with fresh eyes. Well, and it also ignores the fundamental, sort of the foundational concept of clemency, which is this is the last, you know, resort. And every case that comes before a clemency in a death case has likely been reviewed over and over and over again. It goes back to what we just said about what Liz said. I mean, the courts are designed in that way too for finality. It's like, well, once the jury's spoken, and once this is, you know, we don't want, this train is, you know, moving, path, right?

28:01And duh, of course it's been reviewed. Now it's your turn, you know, show some strength, show some fortitude, you're the governor, you have the power. Other governors have done it. And most importantly, it's just, it's fair. It's right. And so I want to talk, you know, this is a little bit of an aside, but it's not, because there's some contours, there's been controversy over the method of execution. And, you know, it was that, you know, lethal injection was sort of the common protocol for many years, but there's been so many problems with that. And, you know, getting the chemicals and everything. So my understanding now is we're doing gas in Alabama. And I want, and I want to talk, having forbid sunny faces that ultimate punishment. I want you to describe what that's going to be like for people. Because people think very humane, it's a sort of easy thing. It's not, is it?

29:01No, it's not. And I will pretty much have to be the one to discuss this. I have, I have had, as you can imagine, this job is filled with incredible highs and incredible lows. And I have had the joy of calling a client and saying we just got a court ordering you a new trial. I've had the joy of calling a client saying the state has just offered you life without parole. And we've had the joy of seeing people be resensed and taken off with death row. But we've also, over the course of my 17 years here, have had to witness three executions. Two of those have been the nitrogen executions as of late. One of those was fairly early on. I believe even the second or third time that it was done. And I would point out, I might just mention this, only because this was mentioned earlier by Elena and Elena. Thank you so much for telling that story about Kerry and Sunny. They were both my clients. And this, I'm sure your viewers will like to know this. They won't like to know this, but they're

30:02going to want to know this because it puts all of this, the picture of all of this into place. Kerry Grayson was executed a year and a half ago. So the man who helped him walk was taking no steps more of his own after that. And Kerry was a kind of a person, too, who truly changed over the years tremendously. So I just thank you for letting me slip that in there. But Kerry's was one of the, well, it was the first nitrogen execution that I witnessed. It's obviously not a pleasant thing to talk about, but it's good for the public to be aware. And there has also, I'll put this out there. Because I think it needs to be stated in the context of whenever this is being discussed. There are, as you have probably seen, if anybody who's looked into this, there are wildly divergent versions out there. If you're looking at the AG's office opinion on the one hand saying, this is like going to sleep in 40 seconds and boom, and you know more consciousness, and that's it. Versus some activists on the other side who, they're activists

31:08who, I believe, are well-intentioned. And I'm not naming any names or anything like that. But there have been presentations made publicly that this last 20 minutes or so of people writhing around and struggling for air and all of this. And that doesn't do the public or our clients a service, either if it's exaggerated beyond what things are, because then it makes the reality seem not quite so horrible, even though the reality is still horrible. So I will just tell you what it is. I mean, I, I, I, sir, I mean, I have witnessed this. You know, they, I won't go through all of the pomp and circumstance that they do, but of course they come out and they read the warrant and they do all these things. They allow the person to say some last words. It's very hard to hear their last words now that they are doing the nitrogen because there is already the mask placed over their face. And we're not talking about like a small, well, this is like, looks almost like something you'd be wearing if, if you were coming out of a hazmat situation or something, or if they're building with smoke.

32:10I mean, it's, it's a full mask covering the face. They are strapped to a gurney covered with some sheets and this sort of thing and dressed in white and they are strapped to the gurney. They go through the process, the spiritual advisor who was never allowed before until sunny sued. We sued on behalf of sunny so that he could have a spiritual advisor of his choosing. Previously, they only allowed the prison chaplain in the room. We made a first amendment argument claiming that that's providing a religious service to Protestant Christians and denying that same service to others. And that has benefited others since then too. I know this is totally on the side, but a Catholic client of mine was able to have the first ever Catholic priest in the chamber with him six months ago because of sunny's case that he brought so that he could have his imam. But so the imam will be able to pray with him and that sort of thing and then they begin the procedure. When they announce that everything will begin, the warden leaves the room, goes into another room where he will be the one to press the button presumably or his designee.

33:15And they tell you that the process is going to begin and you're waiting for it to begin. As a lay person, of course, I can't talk about, exactly when people are conscious or unconscious, but I can talk about what I think most people look like when they're conscious and they're unconscious and what a lay person can make common sense judgments upon. To me, it is very evident having watched both of these that the clients are well aware. Now, we've been told that the airflow changes once they start pumping the nitrogen into the mask. I want to make one thing clear to the public, there is also, as far as some of the exaggerations, there has also been the example used of this is the equivalent of throwing a plastic bag over someone's head and strangling them to death. That is also a bit of an exaggeration in and of, and I'm not trying to justify any of this in any way, I'm just trying to make it so that I'm maintaining my credibility here. There is one aspect of suffocation, this suffocation that would not be as horrible as that

34:16and that is that the lungs would not be burning. 70% of the atmosphere is nitrogen, so I'm breathing it in right now. You can breathe, the same thing, you can take a helium balloon and breathe that in. You're just not getting any oxygen, but it's not hurting your lungs. It's a magical gas in the environment, it doesn't harm the lungs. So, that part is not there, but the part that is there is number one, the psychological horror. It's very evident to me that they know when that airflow has changed and they know when the mask has now been filled with nitrogen. They also, of course, even though their lungs are filling, they would not be catching their breath, they're not getting the oxygen inspiration into their lungs. And at that point, they look panicked. Their eyes look panicked, they are darting about, they're looking over to where they know I am because they know which direction to look where I'll be at. They cannot see me, I can see them, it's a mirrored window that they cannot see out, but they know where to look to be looking at me.

35:17And they are straining against the restraints, they are struggling, they are heaving for air. And this goes on for, it's impossible for me to know exactly because I can't bring a watch in the room and there's a clock on the wall, but it's just a digital clock. There are no seconds in it. So all I could do is take little notes and say this happened at this minute and you're giving estimates. So it could be anywhere from maybe a minute and a half. And I believe it's longer than that. You're probably looking more like a minute and 45 seconds to two and a half minutes of this. And at that point, and this was absolutely bizarre. The first time I saw it, and it was even more bizarre the second time I saw it because it happened at both times. The, hold my hands up, so you can sort of see this, they're laying on a gurney and the struggling is taking place in all of this. And then at one point, you see them take almost one last horrific inhale, a deep inhale,

36:19and their legs raised up almost like a Pilates move is the only way, and I'm not trying to be cute. I'm just saying it's the only way I can describe it. Straight like that, lifted up in the air, carries lifted up and they stayed up and I know seconds seem like hours in this. But they stayed up for a number of seconds. And then at that point, they slowly came down and his head also slowly came down and went to the side and the legs came down. And at that point, his eyes closed, his head slumped as a lay person. I can only presume that when someone's eyes looked terrified, they are darting, they are struggling, they are looking around that they are conscious. I can only presume that at that point, when the legs came down and the head slumped, if they had been terrified before and all that was happening and then their head slumped, they are either beginning unconsciousness or slipping into unconsciousness or shortly,

37:21they're very shortly thereafter are unconscious. So the representation that they are taking breaths, the rest of the time, you know, for another 20 years, both of these took over 20 minutes before they then closed the curtains and pronounced them dead. But, you know, after that, there was very little movement. I mean, you may see twitches and you would see every minute, I made notations as to how many breaths I saw. And of course, you know, at minute four and five, I'm seeing six, seven breaths being taken there, but many of them are small. Sometimes you'd see one larger one in this and then of course, as it's going on, you see maybe one or two small breaths each minute and then one and then finally, they're on them and then they closed the curtain. And that is what happens. At ease. Yeah, well, and you know, in Arizona, it was probably three, four years ago, they challenged this and it was the ACLU,

38:22I think, actually filed some litigation, but on behalf of the Jewish community in Arizona, because this is too reminiscent of cyclone B and what the Nazis did in Nazi Germany. And I think it's really the same substance this guy. So we're back to that in 2026. Yeah, the other thing that really hits you here is that, you know, obviously I would, I would from a legal standpoint, it's not like I would like this and I don't believe, I would not believe in the death mainly under any circumstances, but if in my preview, although I will tell you, when I was younger, I used to believe in the death penalty. I mean, I have evolved on this over the years, but I would say, I mean, from a legal standpoint, it is incredible here, if the state were to simply say, we will sedate them before we do this. I mean, if they would put you under, as if you were going for surgery, and then put this mask on your face, you wouldn't even be conscious of this. You would be spared that entire psychological torture

39:26of being aware that you are not being deprived of the oxygen and all the rest of that. And we would at that point, I think I would be hard pressed to say that I could even file any sort of a colorable eighth amendment challenge at that point to the protocol. They could end all of this litigation, and that sort of thing simply by doing that, and the state refuses to do it. Yeah, amazing. Well, I said I was gonna keep this a little shorter so we can get it out to ask, but we've been going for a while. I just wanna give you my two cents on, well, this idea of the death penalty in and of itself is horrific, but what people do not understand is, there's layers and layers of ugly that surround the death penalty, and it starts, you know, was this case in 1991, sunny, okay. So I'm 21 years old in 1991. I'm a young dumb college, still in college, you know,

40:30jumping for joy, because I can finally drink illegally. That's how long, that's how long sunny, Burton, I've been in a lot of 30 years now. I mean, come on, he's lived his whole life, and people don't think about the deprivation that occurs in the isolation and the stress and the trauma on the road, but when you told the story of Kerry Grayson, I mean, that is, you know, resonated with me. I had a client on federal death row who, you know, that's the closest thing to family these folks have. So not only are they awaiting their own fate and the stress and trauma that goes along with their own case, but they get to live through the murder, they get to see people that are as close to them as family. Then he had to watch Kerry get taken out and killed, and 13 times on the federal death row for my client, he had to do that.

41:30And one of the other cases I worked on there in federal death row, his job was to pack up the client's clothing and belongings, personal belongings, and send them back to their family. 13 times he had to do that. And so it's just so, there's so much horror and so much death and so much collateral damage and you think about even the staff, you just said the staff loved it sunny. They're gonna go through trauma watching this. There are going to be, there are going to be staff go through trauma watching this. This is going to be really, and again, we hope it does not happen. And I think there are a lot of staff up there who hope this does not happen. Well, from your lips to God there's a New York trauma, Matt. I mean, you know, I started by saying warriors for justice and we use that word sometimes kind of flippantly like we're warriors for justice, but this is a war. And in war people lose their lives

42:31and they lose their lives right in front of your very eyes. And the fact that you had to sit through this and that it might, you know, and you bond it with sunny for 17 years. So probably like another family member for you too because we don't, these aren't just clients to us, you know, especially after that one. I have, depending on how far apart family members you're talking about, I have a number of family members who are not anywhere close to me, anywhere near as close to me as sunny is. Sonny called me the last two days just to use his last 10 minutes on phone because he wanted to chat with me, you know, before the end of the day. And I always love as soon as he picks up the phone, he always says, hey, big guy or hey, big Matt, he calls me those things because I'm kind of a big guy and especially compared to him. But, you know, I just, I think it was Elena who was saying earlier about him lighting up, he lights up

43:33and he lights up everybody around him. I mean, we even have this slogan, you know, sunny is a light to the world sort of playing on the sunny, you know, the SUN and why. But I mean, he is, he just lights up the room when you see him. Though those smiles you see on him are very, very real. As you said. Adam, well, actually talking about the film, like Doug, you know, Doug helped me with the film. And while he really helped me learn how to make a clemency film, you could call him my film that. But anyway, one of the criticisms Doug had when he saw the rough cut was the film starts with the photo of Sonny and it's a photo of him from some years ago when he was healthier and at a healthier weight. And so Doug was saying, you know, the first time we see him, we need to see how frail he is. But what you didn't understand is that, so like in that part of the video,

44:34I think Sonny's talking perhaps about hating himself or remorse or things like that. And so I felt it was important to have a photo of him looking serious. That is the only photo we have of him looking serious. And so that is why it appears in the film as much as it does because it doesn't seem right to me to have a photo of him beaming when he's talking about hating himself. Yeah, well, that makes sense. I taught you well. But yeah, if you go to the website, Charles SonnyBerton.com and you know, the very first thing he's in a wheelchair and his helmet is on, but yeah, ear to ear, ear to ear grin. And I don't know how anyone goes through 1991 on death row and it's still smile like that. It's amazing, it's amazing. Speaking of the film and the website, if you do want to watch the film and you're listening to this podcast, of course, it's linked on the website, it's on YouTube. So it's available. And I hope that everybody does go to the website,

45:35Charles SonnyBerton.com. I hope that they reach out to Governor Ivy, three, four, two, four, two, seven, one, 100. I hope that they write, send her an email. There's links right on the front page of the website to send her to communicate with her, send her, sign a petition, pick action, go there, go to the webpage. I've not met Sonny, don't know him. I feel like I do a little bit after spending now with you and after watching Elena's great movie. I know you'll talk to him and I hope you tell him that I'm sending him every prayer. And Sonny's holding on to hope so too, should we that the governor will ultimately do the right thing as so many other governors have done in other places. You mentioned, by the way, Matt, the prior governor of Alabama has reached out to you about this. Not the immediate prior governor, a prior governor.

46:36A prior governor. He has reached out to Governor Seagalman and he is supportive of Sonny here. And he expressed that, and I believe he's been open about this and public about this. And he's willing to speak with the press so he's going to be open and public about this, probably be in the press even before this airs. But he was expressing that there was a case where he believes had he known more of the facts about it at the time. It was also a number of people going in and robbing actually an auto store, very similarly to this. And I don't know all the facts that case. I didn't have a chance to dig into it yet, but he was mentioning it and that he believes that it may have been an entrepreneur there as well. And he has regretted ever since then that he did not commute that sentence. And that's a powerful thing. You're talking about secondary trauma of this whole death penalty thing. Here we have a former governor who allowed an execution to go forward who's experiencing secondary trauma of this. And the one last thing that I would really like to slip in

47:38is, you know, and it pairs right in with what you were talking about earlier about. They talk about these nine appeals and these courts looking at things. I could go deep into the weeds as far as all the different procedural roadblocks that went in there that were ridiculous as far as him not being able to get relief even though we were right on the issue. And the courts essentially admitted that we were right on the issue, but they could not grant us relief because of these roadblocks. But that is why, I mean, our founders of the nation and of each state recognize that our systems of justice are not perfect. That's why they put the clemency power into effect in the first place is as a failsafe. And I even cited in the clemency petition an article from a think tank talking about the founders and the intent of clemency. And a lot of it has to do with reducing sentences when it is disproportionate, when the sentence does not meet what it is. And that quote came the entire quote and the article citing it came from the Heritage Foundation.

48:39A very conservative think tank in Washington, DC. I mean, this is the point of clemency. This is what it's here for. And again, Governor Abbott and Governor Perry and Governor Stitt and Governor Aiza Hutchings of Arkansas and Governor McCullough of Virginia, a Democrat, but again, this shows across the spectrum all have commuted sentences in situations where the lesser culpable person was about to be executed and the more culpable had been spared. And again, quintessential case for clemency, especially when the state itself has already admitted that there's a taint on this execution and that it is arguably unjust. I hope the governor's listening and I hope that he cares about her own legacy. Yeah, I had a quick tie in. I think it's a quick tie into the part of the film. Oh, yeah. You know, particularly with Sonny, I thought a clemency film would be very important in his case because if I were at all successful

49:42and showing people in Columbus if he is, you know, how could they not help but love him? And so you gave me some great advice. You gave me really what should be the start of the movie. You suggested how I should start the movie. And it is, I think the perfect start to the movie because it really is the center of who Sonny is and he's a father and he loves all his children, his 19 children, but you know, I think Carolyn, his first child, his daughter, Carolyn Amanda, she, not that she's a favorite, but there's just, there's something a little different about that bond for him. And so that's how the movie starts with him on the phone with her and right now, or what I've been working on with Sonny for the last couple of weeks, he wanted to write. He wanted her to have a letter in case he doesn't make it. And I've been helping him write those final words to Carolyn.

50:45And, you know, so when I read back to him what I had written because his hand is incapable of writing, it's too crippled and like the claw to grasp the pen and when I read back what I, what, you know, I've been writing his words, I'll tell you that I broke into tears, uncontrollable tears, I sobbed. And it's, I mean, I think that's my bond with Sonny is that movie opened the way it needed to for him, but also for me because hearing those beautiful words, he said to Carolyn, you know, or were I've never heard and Doug knows about my boy named Sue Story, which I won't help, but, you know, when you have, when your father never had any interest in you. And so, and so that was healing for me to hear those words, directed at Carolyn, but and so as I was crying or as I stopped crying,

51:45Sonny said to me, he looked at me with pain dyes, which never happens, and I felt really bad. So I'm making him feel that way, but he looked at me with pain dyes and you said, you know, sometimes feelings are contagious. Thank you for sharing that. My heart is with Sonny, but my heart is with you three, and everybody who's on the ground doing the hard work, fighting for his life. There are four parts of four person who couldn't make it Nancy. She's, she actually isn't Sonny longer than all of us. She's known for 20 years. Nancy is Sonny's paralegal, and they have something very important in common. They both have rheumatoid arthritis, and so they've both been a tremendous support for each other as they've just gone through this very, very painful and agonizing condition or disease. And, and Nancy couldn't be here because she had a death in the family yesterday,

52:48but I know this is something she says, and so I just want to say it for her, which is one of the remarkable things about Sonny, and which has been remarkable for us all dealing with this, this eminent potential of losing him so horrifically, but it's been maybe easier because of him, and primarily because Sonny makes it easy to hope. He truly does. All right, well, holding on to hope and hope, hope onto itself is not enough. We need action, so again, please. Go to the web, I think the website's the easiest thing because you've got the petition there, you've got the move, you've got everything there. It's a one-stop shop and then reach out to the governor, but Charles Sonny, Burton.com, of course, I'm putting all of these links in the show notes, and all right, I'm holding on to hope, and I'm hope that this week is gonna be a good week for Sonny, and for you all too,

53:49and thank you for what you do, and you are truly warriors and thanks for coming on. Step for sentencing, okay? Well, thank you for having us and thank you for giving us this opportunity to talk about Sonny and tell your listeners and your viewers about him and about this case because this is, we need action, and we're asking for it, so please take that action, but spread this video widely too, so others take action also. But thank you, Doug, for this opportunity. It's my honor. We're near Montgomery, and this actually does go forward on Thursday. There will be some folks out in front of the Capitol, starting around noon, all the way through to whatever happens. Okay, good to know. Thank you all so much. You're welcome, thank you. Thank you. That's it for today, but before we go, I just wanted to take a moment and say thank you. To you, the listener, for spending time with us today, getting set for sentencing, whether you're a lawyer, someone who could use the help, or maybe you're just a true crime buff, who loves the inside scoop on how this whole thing works.

54:52If you're interested in knowing more about what I do, mitigation videos, case, consults, live teaching, on-demand educational content, books, articles, all of it. Please visit www.dougpassenlaw.com. I'm Doug Passon, until next time, hang in there. Wait a minute, that's a stupid way of saying off my podcast about sentencing, hang in there. What's the matter with you, man? I guess they call that galos humor, sorry. All right, well I will see you next time on set for sentencing. Bye-bye.