Legal AF Full Episode - 3/25/2026

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2:04a big reveal here. I've got two guest hosts in Dean Adal and Lisa Graves who you all know from various other shows. They some of them have been on with me and in combination with each other, filling in for me or Karen when they were traveling. Karen's not feeling well tonight. And I thought this was a perfect opportunity to bring in both Dean and Lisa as our regular guest host on legal AF. And I'll tease a little bit. I got an announcement I'm going to make closer to the first break in the show. Another incentive to stay here. Stay here with us. Thank you for being in with us on legal AF. I want to kick it off Lisa and Dina about the Iran war. Iran as we came on the air rejecting Trump's negotiators because they see what we see that that the sun and law and the golf buddy are not who they want to be negotiating against. And they've hand picked apparently JD Vance. And I don't think they're picking JD Vance because they think he's going to

3:08take them to the cleaners. I think they want JD Vance because they think we can take advantage of JD Vance. They've rejected the 15 point plan, which is an old style plan from before the bombings that happened over the summer. Many of the points have already either been accomplished or Donald Trump lied to us again about the Iranian nuclear program. And that war and Donald Trump's inability to figure out a way to legitimately declare a win. And while the strain of our moves for almost the fourth week remains shut down as Iran charges a million dollars as a toll for anybody passing through it. It has an impact on this side, right? On the polling numbers on the economy. So why don't we kick it off with with the Iran war update, which we just sort of went through. And then what is its impact on the electoral, uh, the electoral, uh, powers or probability

4:12of Donald Trump for his party at the midterms. So let me turn it over to what kick it off with Lisa this time. Lisa, you've served all three branches of government in your career. You know, a little something about people getting elected and all of that. Pull numbers out. 36%. I think they're going to go lower than that. People hate what Donald Trump's doing in his presidency. And Iran is not helping. What what what are you observing so far as it relates to Donald Trump's conduct of the war and his impact on on his domestic and electoral possibilities? Well, first of all, for a while, Donald Trump wasn't even willing to say that it was a war. It was some sort of excursion like a weekend event. And then in one press conference, I think he declared that he won that we haven't won. That he needs help. That he doesn't need help. It has just been, um, just extraordinarily ineffectual. That would be the kindest thing, I suppose I could say about it. And the notion that they didn't have a game plan for how to get in and get out, didn't have congressional approval,

5:14didn't even have a fresh negotiating document for the terms of concluding this hot war that has resulted in the deaths of American soldiers as well as civilians and others in Iran. And has resulted in the basic closure of this fundamentally important waterway for the shipping of oil around the world. And so Donald Trump has had no plan. His plan, the non-plans, the sort of murmurings of plans or suggestions of plans have been, you know, not apparently recently developed about recycled. And so it's not surprising that Iran has rejected the out-of-date plan or proposal that came through. And at one point, Trump even suggested that he, alongside the leader of Iran, who we call the Iatola, just generically, would control the, the, um, the straight-of-hermuz like they were two trolls of a toll. And so there is no plan. I like the imagery there.

6:19The trolls under the bridge controlling the straight-of-hermuz. One is Donald Trump who looks like a gargoyle who climbed down from a building. And this Iatola who's either AI in hiding or both. Right. So, so I agreed with all of that. And you have, and so people just to bring them up to speed, you know, the 15 points include, you'll give up your nuclear program. It's five different versions of, you'll give up your nuclear program. It's really a five-point plan. I thought we bombed away their nuclear program, except for one of the major nuclear sites, which we, for some reason, avoided and didn't bombed the first time around. Everyone Donald Trump declared mission accomplished war over in the summer. I mean, who was the guy that was standing there saying, we never have to go back to Iran again. We're done. We bombed their nuclear program back to Flintstones time. And we're done. And now we're not done. And we got to do it all again. Dino, what do you think? I mean, I think this is, I can't, and we are in this crazy position where you don't know whether or

7:22not that Iranian regime is somehow speaking more truthfully than us. Normally, you would think that whatever they said, relies and propaganda. But Trump lies so much that you have, and it's this weird, you have no idea what the truth is at any time, which is just devastating. It's a sad state of affairs. We can't trust Iranian propaganda over our own president, right? Absolutely. I do want to say, I love this for JD Vance, okay? Because he was trying so hard to go under the radar, because as you preview, this is extremely unpopular for Trump. And it will be. This is going to be devastating for the Republicans in the midterms and Trump overall. And Vance was trying to hide and Iran knew that. And so I kind of love that they're naming him as the negotiator. It cannot go well for him. And the one day we'll see the photo of the short straw that JD Vance pulls in order to be, no, but and talk about it's a sad state of affairs and

8:25shows you that Donald Trump thinking that he was going to make America this awe-inspiring, powerful superpower. I have to agree with the Iranians. It's hollowed out America because we look like we're just this feckless run by a guy who's gone bonkers. Everything we say is going to happen, doesn't happen. The shifting hourly is not proper diplomacy. As Lisa, you said, what was the plan in order to have 90 million people take over their own country? I don't really understand that plan. He doesn't explain that plan. And then how do they, maybe this is for Lisa, how do they explain to whatever's left of their base? I mean, the hard deck of that base has got to be about 30% now. And how do you explain to even them that going to war with Iran for four weeks at a million dollars a minute is America first? How do you explain that to them? I don't think that it's a thing that they can sell because the cost is enormous. And just this past week, the Trump administration has been talking about going to Congress, which

9:28it rebuffed in the initial activities, not letting Congress know that it was planning to go to war, let alone the fact that Congress actually has the power to declare war under our Constitution, not the president unilaterally, and certainly not in a situation in which there was not an imminent threat. But Trump, basically, with his team, was saying they need more money. Billions and billions of dollars. Meanwhile, they're starving America. They're starving Americans. They're starving our infrastructure. This administration has made the situation worse for so many Americans, whether it's on Medicaid, Medicaid, SNAP benefits for poor children, all sorts of cuts to our health infrastructure. And so you have this situation where basically Trump suggests that there's unlimited funds for this folly, this disaster, where basically anyone who had ever looked at an actual map of Iran would understand that if you attacked the country of Iran, the straight before moves would close, which is why it has not been affirmatively attacked in modern era,

10:34because of that very risk. And so Americans are seeing the impact in terms of gas prices. And that has been one of the touch points for Trump's claim about the economy was gas prices down or gas prices less. And everyone is taking it at the pocketbook, and not just the pocketbook on your daily basis of putting gas in your car. But also in our pocketbook, in terms of our overall budget, the budget for the things that Americans need, instead of being squandered abroad, and there look like other ways in which the Trump family may be trying to profit from war, as well as profiting from other things. And there's been insider trading revelations in terms of someone making big stakes just in advance of Trump's announcements. So it appears that there's manipulation of the market going on that some people are benefiting from information. We don't know who they are, Congress needs to investigate that. But beyond all of it, like you said, Michael, the fact is that Trump is sinking in the polls. The Republican Party has been losing an array of special

11:36elections across the country, including this week, the seat that is the seat on Mar-a-Lago. He said he's not at rock bottom yet, but he certainly is sinking like a rock. Like a stone. And to unpack some of that, 200 billion dollars they add, they're going to ask for, they have asked Congress for, it's a million dollars a minute. Just to put that into sharp contrast and something that happened, a disaster that happened this week, you've got Air Canada plane crashing into a fire truck because of many reasons, but one of them being the outdated technology for the 70s and 80s that runs our airline system to update our air traffic control system, which they promised when Elon Musk was running around on ketamine or whatever he was hopped up on, talking about reimagining and reimagining the government. And he was the technologist. He was going to redo all, well, he never did all of that. The cost to redo our air traffic control system to make our skies safe for employees all the way down to business travelers,

12:39leisure travelers and cargo is about 20 billion dollars. It's one tenth of the amount of money. He's already wasted in Iran while he's busy giving a billion dollars back to the French. So they don't go forward with a wind turbine project. That billion dollars could have done a lot of good for the American people in red states included, right? Yeah, absolutely. And he's also as you were saying, Lisa, about the profiting off of insider trading, it seems as if he is really trying to manipulate the market, right? He put a pause five days. It seems like they're really engaging the most in Iran on the weekends. And then he says, oh, things are going to resolve that way when the market is open on Monday, they go up and they go down. I mean, I was a corporate attorney and filed with the SEC all the time. Now the Trump has the head of the SEC that looks at insider trading. I mean, they're never going to bring a prosecution against Trump or son or whatever. And they are taking advantage of it. And that's the thing American people don't like.

13:43American people don't like cheaters. You know, us here, we care about democracy. But as we saw in that 2020 for election, saving democracy was fell flat. It's shocking, but it did. But the thing that American people don't like are cheaters. And the fact that we are not only, as you said, not using that money here for our infrastructure, but he is profiting. Our people very close to him are profiting off of it, essentially cheating. And that message should go out more. It's really disgusting. Absolutely. I think that 36% is being kind to him. Now look, races as Lisa knows well from working on Capitol Hill races or one as Tip O'Neill once famously said, all politics is local. So we're talking about taking a national poll and converting it into 435 separate races for Congress and 100 for the Senate and all of that special elections that we just saw. But the mood of America, the right direction, wrong direction, consumer confidence, the popularity or lack there

14:47of the president, all goes into the mix historically of and we're seeing it. Because as I said, in an earlier video today, you know, there's been close to 300 races since Donald Trump has been in office of various types, you know, from state houses and congressional races, Senate and all that. But when you add them up, the Democrats have overperformed and over 90% of those races from where Kamala Harris was. And as of last night with the Florida two two state house seats in Florida in Donald Trump's front yard and back yard in Palm Beach County, Florida, both going to Democrats, including the one that Donald Trump endorsed and supported the Republican with his mail-in ballot no less. We'll talk about mail-in ballots later. That is now 30 and O of Democrats flipping red seats. They're running at about almost a 30% win rate in flipping seats from red to blue. And you know what that means? That means Republicans haven't flipped one Democrat seat by contrast.

15:51Right. So there is this. There is a mood, right, Lisa? In America, I've said it's a pent-up demand to vote, right? Yeah. Well, that's true. And also some of these seats are seats where the Republicans, these are districts where there are more Republicans registered to vote than Democrats. And so the assumption is that some number of those votes going to Democratic candidates are coming from Republicans as well as Democrats. And so that flip is really significant in terms of the unpopularity of Donald Trump, the unpopularity of people who are aligned with him of the Mogga Republicans, of people he's endorsed. You know, they are in real trouble with this electorate. And that is in part because of the way the economy has stumbled and really tumbled under Trump. Job creation numbers, you know, at one point they eliminated having the official statistics, then they sort of worked out a way to assert that there was job growth. But when you look at the real numbers, we have a real stagnating private sector. And of course, Elon Musk, Donald Trump,

16:55and Russell vote have devastated the public sector in terms of layoffs and firings of the federal government. And so you have an economic and unfolding economic nightmare for many families, a lot of bankruptcies. And more happening, you have farm closures for closures in rural America, in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana. You know, these places are suffering too. You have a lot of rural voters who are not seeing the promises that Trump made come true. In fact, the opposite happening in terms of most prices going up. And so I think the American people get that we are on the wrong track. And this Iran debacle is only aggravating those things while also risking the lives of our soldiers for a guy who doesn't really seem to have any real plan. And just like two days ago, I think Trump declared that, you know, now that we've beaten Iran, which hasn't happened, the real next enemy is the Democrats. So he wants to basically try to poison people against the

17:56Democratic Party as the Democratic Party is making gains against him. And I will say, Michael, that one of the things in looking at the polling overall historically, when Nixon left office after the revelations of Watergate, when he basically resigned in disgrace, he was at between 30 and 33% polling. When George W. Bush left office after the economy crashed, Wall Street crashed in 2008 after revelations of torture and the lies about the war in Iran, George W. Bush left office with a rate again of about 33%. And so he really, Trump really is in that bottom figure within the margin of error. Absolutely. Lisa, Tina, talk about as if everything that Lisa just outlined was not enough. This is like the old joke about asking Mrs. Lincoln about what happened and then the guy saying in response, oh, well, but how was the play? You guys know that old joke?

18:57Things are going, things are going from bed to worse for him. Four hour lines at airports. I've traveled in and out of Atlanta airport. My late mother lived there for years and I read today that the line stretched out of the airport and onto the sidewalk. You're talking about five hour delays as Donald Trump has ice flex its muscles and try to, according to him, rehabilitate their reputations today. So make it, make, bring it home for the American people who are travelers. The summer travel season is about to start. You've got half of ice, sorry, half of TSA has thrown in the towel when they're not living in their car because they haven't gotten paid. Do you blame the Democrats for that? Is it right for the Democrats to hold steady here and to make sure that there's reforms at ice before they let money flow to other aspects of the DHS Department of Homeland Security, including TSA, or do you think that could backfire or the Democrats will Trump

19:58be successful in pinning the blame on the Democrats? You know, who knows, but it's the right thing to do because Trump always says how Iran murders protesters on the street. Well, we in fact just did that. So it's absolutely the right thing to try to get some sort of ice restrictions. And as you know, the Democrats have put forward many bills to try to just fund TSA. I actually just flew yesterday out of the Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport. And there were ice agents there just hanging out. And evident like TSA agents are really upset because they're not getting paid, but ice is getting paid for literally doing nothing. And sure enough on that conveyor belt where you put your suitcases, there were three ice agents just sitting there staring as if maybe the suitcases needed to get twisted, but they did nothing. Other than, frankly, seem really intimidating. They had their vests, their guns. It felt like some sort of a dictatorship. It was really jarring, intimidating. That's frankly the point. Trump is trying to say, you don't want to fund a department the way

21:05I want you to fund it because actually the Republicans and the Democrats almost came to a deal. And Trump said no, no deal with Democrats, Senator Kennedy kind of slipped that info out there. This is his bully technique. He says, okay, then I'm going to basically scare you. Nobody wants to see militarized airports. This is not a dictatorship. Although dictatorship countries spend most of their GDP on war. And it certainly seems as we've talked about before, we're doing that more and more. But frankly, very disturbing to see the ice agents. Well, you have Steve Ben in reinforcing your point. He says out loud that this might be a test run dress rehearsal of Donald Trump using ice at the airport for how he's going to do it on election day. Just as Donald Trump said allowed to the military brass Aquanico that do dress rehearsals on Americans when we send you into cities, you know, through the national guard. I mean, so they've been, but do we think let's just keep

22:07all three here for a minute? Do we think this this version of the beatings will continue until morale improves? You know, right? Do we think this is going to work? Like scaring the crap out of people is that going to get Donald Trump elected bombing his way to popularity? Is that it didn't work for Nixon? No. I don't think so. And I think that when people see what's happening at the airports when they hear about it, when they see it on TV or they experience themselves, you know, this is a president who's claimed the right to redirect money in all sorts of ways, but somehow cannot actually make sure that the TSA agents are funded with all the supposed superpowers he has to redirect money without Congressional authorization. And as Deena said, you see picture after picture coming in through the news, through social media of heavily armed ICE agents just standing around while other people at the TSA agents are actually doing their job, which is screening passengers and making sure that, you know, that the people aren't carrying contraband items onto the plane. We don't need

23:11this sort of militarized presence in our airports or our polling places or quite frankly anywhere else in America. This is a crisis that Trump has created. And in many ways, manufactured to the rhetoric that he's deployed around immigration and other issues. And I, I don't think it's going to sell wealth to the American people. What is clear and what's been reported widely as Deena said is that Democrats have brought up several bills to fund TSA to fund the TSA agents of the airport while having some constraints and important constraints on the activities of ICE, which have been demonstrably dangerous to American citizens and our communities and neighbors, neighborhoods, not just in Minneapolis, but in Chicago and Maine and, you know, Washington, in Oregon and California, like across the country, we've seen these abusive practices deployed under Christy Nome, who then lost her job after, you know, some more scrutiny of her activities and, you know, what's been happening. And it's just not popular. Even on immigration, when you look at the polling, when you go down to poll tabs, Trump's policies and immigration are not actually supported

24:16because it's too extreme. It's not helpful. It's super costly. And, you know, it's causing us real harm to our civil liberties and our freedoms. And it's, I saw polling numbers as a 70% of America rejects his immigration policies. Yeah. And it's even higher as you go into subgroups like Hispanic Catholics and, and, and all the coalition that he needed to get elected, he's completely shit on and destroyed. Yeah. Well, this is why he's, this is why he's pushing so hard for the safe act because they know they cannot get the votes that they need. And they want to fundamentally change the way we vote. And I know we're going to talk about the Supreme Court, male and ballot case, which is. So the Supreme Court just heard a case on Monday, contesting a Mississippi law of all places, allowing ballots to be kept, to be counted if they were postmarked by election day, which is the law in many states in this country. But they, they contested as a Republicans contested it, saying federal law requires election day to be a certain

25:17day. And you cannot count afterwards. And it appears that this mega six is going to change the way we count male and ballots and require them not just to be postmarked, but them to be received by election day fundamentally. And the really big problem with this is not just the fact that you are making it harder for people to vote male and ballot, but to let people know that it's all about getting information out there, getting out the vote is like the hardest part of any campaign. Now you also have to tell millions upon millions of people who frankly barely pay attention to elections that they now have to send in their ballot like two weeks out of their election day in order to get there in time. That's just not happening. But yeah, I want to, you know, I want to dive. I want to do a whole segment on the Supreme Court. That was a very good preview of it when we come back from a break. But I do want to touch on the Savak for a minute because a lot of what we're

26:18watching with Donald Trump and his and his chest pounding and thumping and trying to get the Republicans in the Senate and the House to support him have to do with the Savak, which is not about photo, photo ID, although I may have be okay with that. It's about citizenship papers. Show me your papers. And many people, huge percentages of Americans don't have citizenship papers the way they're defined in the Savak. They don't have a passport. They don't have a birth certificate with their name, their proper name on it because they got married or they got adopted or whatever you want to call it. And so that's what Donald Trump's going after. And that impacts Republicans as well. But in order to get the Savak passed because the Democrats have already said they're going to filibuster in the Senate, meaning they're going to block either by a technical procedural filibuster of saying we're going to filibuster or actually standing on their feet for weeks at a time. Allah, Mr. Smith goes to Washington. Well, hopefully went off. It just, it may happen. I

27:21don't know. But the Republicans, this is really for Lisa too, the Republicans know they got to know that they're likely to lose at the midterms, at the rate they're going. And are they going to want to give up the filibuster, the only procedural tool that a party in the minority has while they're in the minority to do anything, to stop bills. They don't like they're going to give that up when months away from now. They could be in the minority. Yeah, I mean, I don't think they will. I mean, there's been pressure from from to to soon, the majority leader for the Republicans to abandon the filibuster that only right now applies to legislation. It doesn't apply to nominations that has was ended a few years ago by both Biden and by Trump. But for legislation to give up that last ability to thwart legislation you don't like with filibuster, it seems it would be really irrational for the Republicans to go along with Trump, especially because what Trump wants is a bill that would make it harder for tens of millions of American women to vote, including

28:22Republican women. It doesn't just affect Democrats. It affects everyone because if you don't have a certified birth certificate, you don't have a certified marriage certificate or a divorce certificate, you know, changing your showing your name change or a second marriage certificate with a name change, you may not be able to vote in the States. And it is really like 1-800 big brother because the fact of the matter is that there are fewer cases of voter fraud than the number of felonies Donald Trump has been convicted of. When you look at the data, how much less than 34? Yes, yes. When you look at the data, and that's a ray of fraud, when you look at the actual data of voting in America, if you think about 100 million in this election, 100 million in the election, et cetera, 200 million, you can get to a billion votes and have fewer than a handful of people who were convicted of any type of voter fraud, meaning maybe they voted in the wrong place, maybe they voted twice. We've seen the number of Republicans who've been recently convicted

29:25of actual voter fraud, but it's so rare. It's like 0.000001. And so you don't have an actual real problem of non-citizens voting, in part because you can be deported if you vote without having citizenship in an election for Congress or for those other parties. This is not your number one concern voting in elections. They're trying to stay in the country, to your point in Georgia, which drives Donald Trump baddie, because he got indicted there. He just sees the Fulton County boxes of voting materials there. Fawni Willis was his arch enemy in his own mind. Five million people are so voted in Georgia during the election. I'll buy lunch if anybody gets it right. Do you know how many confirmed cases of voter fraud in the state of Georgia that year out of 50 million? I'm sorry, I had a 5 million votes cast work. Jacob is 11? What do you say, Lisa? Two. It's between two and 11.

30:25Who's eight? So we're good. We average out. Out of 5 million. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And that wasn't necessarily immigrant. Oh, yeah. Someone might have had a felony thought it was a fun. A lot of it was finished and voted. Someone may have voted twice. We've seen some Republicans convicted of voting twice or committing voter fraud. It's so rare, though. And it's certainly not an issue of citizenship. And so like to your point, Michael, the fact is that all of us have recently, almost everyone other than probably a bunch of New Yorkers who don't drive, but most Americans have gone through this real ID process where they're counted and how to now did you got to give it a real ID? People have gone in to get the real ID. But the real ID does not show citizenship. It doesn't have a check-off box. Only five states have that check-off box for citizenship. And so you may think you have a license that would allow you to vote, but you don't 45 and 45 are the 50 states. That real ID license is not enough. And as you point it out,

31:25half of the half the American population don't have passports. And Donald was made it harder to get a passport. They recently closed down thousands of passport offices at libraries. Meanwhile, Louis DeJoy, the Postmaster General that Trump installed, has actually changed the process for processing mail. So you don't get your mail postmarked at your local post office unless you walk in. If you put it in the box, it gets shipped hundreds of miles away to some processing center. Because by the way, Louis DeJoy wants to sell off our mail service to the highest bidder in privatization. And so they're creating these little mail processing centers. And everyone I know knows their mail is going more slowly. And so between the save act and this Watson case, the Supreme Court case, you have a series of forces really being being instigated by Republicans, by the Republican president, by, you know, potentially by Congress, by the Republican appointed Attorney General, that are coming together to actually try to put a sort of vice grip on our voting at a time when Americans are probably voting more, you know, more than ever. These little special elections where

32:31you don't usually have a lot of turnout. The turnout has been strong. And that has been strongly against the president and his party. You're on, you're on legal AF on the minus touch network. You got Dean Adal and Lisa Graves at guest host today sitting in here. When we come back, if it have, of course, Tina, why don't you take the lead on Trump's steals two big documents, including one that only six people in the entire of the United States had classified clearance in order to review. Did he do it for profit motive? Well, Jack Smith thinks he does. We'll do that. We'll do what happened at the Supreme Court with back-to-back oral arguments Monday and Tuesday on mail-in ballots and on asylum. The dignity of our immigration policy, if you will. I want to talk about what happens, what could happen with birthright citizenship. And if we learned anything from the oral arguments, wet foot, dry foot, talk about that in a moment. And that new revelations coming out of a hearing in an un now unsealed transcript about the fact that yes, the government

33:31does not have any real evidence that Jay Powell committed any crimes as the federal reserve chair. Donald Trump again, talking about a blockade of his own making. It's not just in the straight of our moves. It's in the Senate Banking Committee because they're not going to allow Kevin Warsh to become the next chair on 815 because Tom Tillis doesn't like the fact that there's a criminal investigation that's still potentially ongoing. We'll cover all of that here on the midweek edition of legal AF. So many different ways to support what we do on the Midas Touch Network on legal AF. We've got legal AF, the, as part of the ecosystem, legal AF, the YouTube channel, which I found in a year and a half ago, we're going to hit 1.1 million subscribers. I think this weekend with your help, 12 new videos a day, including sometimes the likes of Dean and Thal and Lisa Graves over on legal AF, the YouTube channel. And the way you can, some people are like, how do, how does this thing work this whole, what's the business model for my, for Midas Touch and legal AF, right? How do they are they all volunteers? No, they're not. And especially our,

34:36our illustrious team, I got, I got salty with meat today as a producer. We have producers and editors and lots of other people that need to get paid and not live in their cars like the TSA. So the way to do it is just with your thumb or finger, if you like the content that you're watching, you want to support it and promote it and vote for it and you've come to rely on it, then just become a subscriber. It's free. If you want to switch over and become a paid member, okay, that's great too. And then we've got legal AF, the sub stack. That's all know the world. But it's, it's co extensive with and collaborative with the YouTube legal AF and podcast world. There's eight or 10 new pieces of Lisa writes for it a lot. I do a couple of lives a day, including today with live reporting and interviews, all sorts of things. We've got Scott McFarland who just joined Midas Touch as its DC bureau chief and to do a weekly show or daily show. On the news, he's going to be on there with me. And so it's really amazing things. And then

35:38this shows six years old in the making. We've got our pro democracy sponsors as well. Now, here's what I teased. The people are here now at the 33 minute mark. This is well worth it. Okay. I know everybody loves Dean and Lisa. I think I'm separately. I like him together. And so we're going to do a Monday night or Dina and Lisa are going to do a Monday night legal AF. We do it on Wednesdays. We do it on Saturdays. We're going to do a Monday night over on the legal AF YouTube channel as a live podcast there. They're going to lead it. I'll come in and out. But it's really their show. And it's going to be starting hopefully sometime in April. We're working out the logistics of it now. And I thought with Karen being ill today, this would be good opportunity to sort of put put the band together and let people know about it. And here you are. What do you guys think about that? I mean, it's so excited and honored. Lisa and I were one of the first contributors on the legal AF channel. And so honored to bring the marquee podcast legal AF has

36:38been there since like day three, maybe of the minus such network to bring it now to a home. A second home original of legal AF channel. So honored. So excited. We cannot wait to do it. And Lisa and Lisa who people who don't know are looking at her up right now. Lisa runs true north research and is a founder or one of the leaders of court accountability action. There's whole playlist we have on legal AF related to that. And a little known fact besides she and I are becoming very close friends as I am with Dina. Lisa introduced me to Sydney Blumenthal. And that begat the the court of history podcast. There are resident historian Sean Wellens and Cindy Blumenthal. And that was because you know, Lisa said, Hey, can I give Cindy your number? He wants to, you know, nobody's watching him over where he's at now. And I'll go, yeah, let's do it. And now look where we are now with amazing

37:39podcast called Court of History. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you so much. I agree with everything Dina said. And Michael, we're so thrilled to have the chance to be part of the official legal AF lineup on Monday nights. We're looking forward to seeing you all as you tune in not just on Mondays, but Wednesdays and Saturdays and other times as well. And really honored to have a chance to be part of this might as touch network and the live shows in addition to the recording. And again, a big shout out as well to the production team that makes all this work so well. And to you, our audience just honored to have the chance to join you. Thank you so much, Michael. And Dina, you know, I adore you. So really, really happy to be part of this. I adore you too. We're going to have so much fun, Lisa. Mike, you're probably not going to want to just come visit because we're going to have so much fun. I'm ready. Yeah, I'm really into that. I'm really into the visiting part. And but now we've got us, thank God we've got sponsors that appreciate what we do and want to talk to our audience. And here's our word for our sponsors. When it comes to dog food,

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41:51It's a perfect gift for birthdays, holidays or people who are impossible to shop for because literally no one expects to open a book about themselves plus book by anyone has printed over 450,000 books so you can trust that they make a quality product and shipping is always free. So you can get the best book at the best price for a gift that's truly unforgettable. Head to book by anyone.com. Order your book today and enjoy free shipping at book by anyone.com. One last time that's book by anyone.com. Welcome back to the midweek edition of Legal AF, Michael Popock, your regular anchor, joined by our two guest anchors, Dean Adal and Lisa Graves. We woke up this morning to new news coming out of Jack Smith in Merrick, Garland by way of a letter sent out by the ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee, Jamie Raskin, friend of the show. I'm actually working on getting him on the show to talk about

42:52this letter soon. And representative Raskin wrote a pretty scathing letter to a charity general Pam Bondy about the fact that why does she get to cherry pick what was in the Mar-a-Lago files that she had Judge Cannon seal in a tomb forever, including future Department of Justice's? Why does she get to pick and choose what's in the Mar-a-Lago file in terms of all of the documents that sticky finger Donald Trump took with him that were top secret and classified, not because he's a hoarder, not because he's just keeping them as mementos, but according to a update report that we now know about from Jack Smith to Merrick Garland at the time, because there was our sneaking suspicion by the prosecution that he was doing it to use to profit in his businesses or use for some sort of commercial gain, selling out America for trade secrets. People have been given lethal injection for a lot less in this country. And the part that we didn't know, because we knew about

43:54maps, which we thought we knew about the war maps that he took with him from the earlier reporting about Mar-a-Lago in the indictment. But we didn't know about this one document that only six people have security clearance for and how Donald Trump used it. And just to frame the issue before I turn it over to Dina, just because we have to keep our timeline straight. At the time Donald Trump left office, he had no reason to believe he'd ever be elected again. He thought his career was over. This is right off the heels of Jan 6th. This is Republicans taking to the house and said in Florida condemn Donald Trump. This was the lowest eb of his career and the prosecution's on top of it. So he thought he would just be businessman Donald Trump doing crypto deals and NFT deals and real estate deals, which explains why he kept a couple of little cash of documents for the people in the Middle East, for instance, that he was negotiating with. A country, sorry,

44:56a region we are now effectively at war with, at least parts of it. So the fundamental question that Jamie Raskin asked in his letter is, were these war plans and secret documents about the Middle East? Who were they shown to? And who and your family, including Baron Trump, knew about these documents at the time that you left office and how were you planning to use them? And fundamentally, what is this document that you took with you that only six people get to see? Dean, take it from there. Well, exactly. I mean, these are the questions Raskin is asking and really stunning. I mean, to the point that Trump was just a cheater and cheating, taking such a classified document that only five other people, other than him, were even able to view. And he takes it to his business. He takes it to Marolago. And it was related to his business interests. So just trying to take advantage yet again from the American people, the most corrupt president ever, but using highly classified information for his own pocketbook. And in addition, evidently showing

46:03this classified map on a private plane, interestingly, a new detail that he showed it in front of current chief of staff Susan Wiles. So she could here be implicated perhaps as well. But to your point, there was a cherry picking of release of documents. And Raskin saying that the DOJ very likely violated the gag order that they had requested and Trump had requested Judge Cannon. When Judge Smith went in front of Congress, he wasn't able to answer all of their questions because he kept referring to the gag order that was in place by Judge Cannon here at the DOJ kind of doing what they want, seemingly violating the gag order. So that was the second part of Raskin's letter there. And Lisa, what do you, what do you make of it? I mean, you've got the two concepts that are in the letter, right? Pam Bondy, why do you, there's no such thing as a congressional privilege. You don't get to violate a federal court order that you yourself obtained and and use it as a shield and

47:09a sword to release documents to try to embarrass Jack Smith, which didn't work and backfired. And on the other hand, claim that the Mar-a-Lago volume to report can't ever be released to the American people because Eileen Cannon says so. And then you've got, did Donald Trump is he, did he profit on top secret and classified information and undermine America's national interests, national security and the lives of people in the military? Yes, I mean, this is so, it's extraordinarily serious what the allegations are. And I would encourage everyone to read Representative Jamie Raskin's letter for themselves because it is really compellingly written and it raises very serious concerns both about the first point you mentioned in terms of the cherry picking of release of some information that Pam Bondy thinks helps him or helps them. And then the denial or the effort to hide forever other information that

48:09is very damaging. Politico reviewed the letter, you know, the underlying sort of, someone of the underlying documents, there's a map of a plane. For example, where the names of the people who are on the plane who received this information, you know, their names are blacked out. Raskin has asked for their names to be shared so the American people can know who they are, who was on that plane where this secret, secret map was revealed. He's asked for the American people to know and at least Congress to know what country was depicted in that map. And what business did these other people who presumably did not actually have, you know, top secret clearance, let alone letter level clearance, the highest level clearance, let alone the super highest level clearance where as you point out, at least one of these documents was only seen or was only allowed to be seen by a handful of leaders of Congress if they could see it at all. And so you have a former president

49:10sharing information that is protected, supposed to be protected, for our interests, the interests of the American people, our national security interests. And yet a former president is sharing this document with people who do not have clearance presumably, who, and he's doing so on a, you know, private plane and these private facilities. And as Jamie Raskin said, he thinks that there's evidence and certainly Jack Smith conveyed to the then attorney general under Joe Biden, that this information show that Donald Trump had compromised our national security to advance his own business interests. This is extremely serious. And it, this happened before we've seen the ways in which it appears that our national security interests are also being compromised or manipulated in some ways by this president to the profit of unknown people who are getting information out of this White House, either from him or someone else and making trades on it. And so this is a precursor,

50:11but I think the American people have a right to know. And I don't think that Judge Eileen Cannon had any right to suppress that evidence to hide it from the American people. I agree with Raskin that that information should be made public. The American people should see the evidence that Donald Trump had not evidence that not the actual secret, secret documents that no one should see, but we should know what those documents related to because it goes to the question of how, you know, how has Donald Trump perhaps compromised the security of the United States and has he himself benefited or his family business with his sons or other associates benefited from his access to classified information. This is what, you know, it's an extraordinary scandal. And the fact that the Trump administration, both the Justice Department and the White House are attacking Jamie Raskin as, you know, supposedly having Trump derangement syndrome is ridiculous. Rep Raskin is a constitutional scholar. He's someone who has deep integrity. He's an excellent lawyer, and he is not going to give up on this fight. I'm sure until we get to the bottom of it.

51:14Right. And so I think what that means for our audience is that come the midterms and the Democrats get the gavel. We're going to see impeachment proceedings against Pambondi. I mean, does anybody on this illustrious panel tonight think the Pambondi isn't going to be the subject of an impeachment proceeding? And maybe Donald Trump as well. For things that happen, think about this. Because we're going to talk about, are we going to talk about this one? We'll touch on. That we know there's a grand conspiracy, criminal investigation being conducted out of the Southern District of Florida, my backyard, by a hand-picked prosecutor of Donald Trump called Jason Redden-Kinionis, and he's using Judge Kenon again, 90 miles north of his home, to go run up there and get a grand jury in place. They've issued 130 subpoenas, including against James Comey, against Brennan, the former CIA director, and they're working theory since these events happen in 2016 is that the conspiracy component of it means that the

52:19statute of limitations has been recharged because things have happened in furtherance of the conspiracy in the last five years. All right, hold that thought for a minute. If that's true, and some of the events related to these documents in Donald Trump's use of them happened in 2023, then a 2028-ish new Department of Justice could investigate Donald Trump. I don't care how old he is at that point, for what happened in 2023, 2024, right, before he became president. He doesn't have criminal immunity at that point by the Supreme Court, and he and this would extend the statute of limitations on many of these crimes. So I'm not sure Trump's out of the woods yet, because let's remember or tell our audience for the first time that he wasn't absolved in Mar-a-Lago, okay? And I don't even think it would be double jeopardy. He had his prosecutor declared to be invalidly appointed and had the indictment

53:23tossed as a result, but that doesn't mean that he was exonerated, okay? And so a new prosecutor or just the attorney general in the future, okay? Without a special prosecutor. So after Donald for 2024, 2023 events, couldn't he? I almost think that the attorney general position in 2028 is going to be more important than even the president, because there are so many prosecutions that can go forward starting 2028 or 2029, right? Well, in the related pieces, you know, if Trump is sharing information, secret information, super top secret information, beyond top secret, with people while he is not president, those are not the official acts of the president. Do not get immunity under the invented immunity that John Roberts created for him with the Republican appointees on the court. You cannot have immunity for acts that he committed while he was not president. Let me do a thought experiment. Let me do a thought experiment and take advantage

54:27of Lisa being with us on the panel today with her deep Supreme Court knowledge and author of a recent book called without precedent. There we are about the John Roberts court. I'm not sure that Trump's out of the woods on the immunity decision, because what what is there's nothing to stop the Department of Justice in 2029, right? To go back after Donald Trump and test the limits of that immunity stretched to its outer boundaries core constitutional is taking documents and using them maybe even now as commander in chief, he still has him apparently or has access to him. You know, so I'm not so sure that the immunity decision should be such a brick wall to stop future prosecutors from testing the outer boundaries of it and or giving the Supreme Court the opportunity to revisit the immunity decision based on some heinous conduct by Donald Trump who doesn't give a

55:30crap about about any of the lines of boundaries. He just does anything. What do you think Lisa, couldn't a future prosecutor test the limits and bring a case and it'll have have Donald Trump try to argue about his immunity? Yeah, I think that could very well happen and I actually think it should because I think this court, the Supreme Court should revisit that decision. It was a terrible decision or reckless decision, an unreasoned decision in terms of our constitution, a counter-constitutional decision, and even within the boundaries of this despicable decision, it's not limitless. There are boundaries and I think those should be tested because we are in an extraordinarily dangerous situation with a president who thinks that he can do no wrong, thinks that anything he does is a so-called official act or official word and is and also has the power to give partners. Again, another another power that I think really needs to be revisited and examined because no one should be able to pardon their co-conspirators whether they're at the Justice Department or any other agency or whether they're a high official or a lower official. The pardon power should not extend

56:34that way either and that was implicated as well in the decision that John Roberts wrote. So I like the thought experiment. I think we're going to have to put a lot of things on the table to restore the rule of law, to restore justice, and to repair the damage that has been done not just by Donald Trump, but also by the Roberts Court. I think any reasonable person looking at the outcome of that decision back in 2024, right before the election, would recognize that that decision is a disaster constitutionally and maybe there are some on the court or maybe it'll be a different court. We'll revisit it and say that decision is repudiated because it was so wrong headed and has so many problems with it, but you're right. It's not absolute, it's not unlimited and even within the conversation or the descriptions of the power that John Roberts invented, it's not without bounds. Yeah, and I think you're sorry, you take it over, did it good? Well, I was just making the point that yes to that point, it was only the article two powers that

57:37were absolute, official was qualified, private was not at all. And the reason why you know that those some of those actions, well, at least when we're talking about January six, could have gone forward is because of the private lawsuit that's still going forward. The Capitol police officers in Congress people have sued Trump saying that those were private actions because that speech he gave that day was paid that rally was paid for with campaign funds. So if he had not won, that could have still been the criminal proceeding against him could have gone forward. And we know that because Trump tried to dismiss that lawsuit saying this was official conduct and he wasn't able to do that. And so that you know, civil lawsuits always take a long time to move forward. So that's kind of still working its way through the court, but it did overcome that initial motion to dismiss because there were enough facts that that was actually private action that day. And to Lisa's point, we can't as a society just chalk off chalk up the four years of the

58:40second Trump administration as just like this funny little period where really interesting things happened and ignore the impact that our for the good of our pardon me, for the good of our rule of law and our constitutional republic are are not too distant future selves have to go back and look at what should be impeached and what should be prosecuted. Even if he tries to do mass partings on the way out the way he did mass partings on the way in of all the people who committed those crimes at on the Capitol on Jan 6. So what? We have to continue to make that party expend their political capital to support and protect a lawless president. And you know, we can't just like I said, we can't just chalk it off to oh, just like the funny little period in our, you know, in our life and we'll just we need to move on from it. Look forward, not back.

59:41No, we're going to have to spend a fair amount of time cleaning up behind this this administration, right? Because you can argue that actually forward pardoning Nixon allowed for Trump. Because if Nixon had gotten prosecuted, then perhaps Trump would have been afraid of breaking the law. So we do have to move past somehow the president is, you know, the deference to it. I think we certainly are. I think our us as a country have a lot more willingness to prosecute. So, so let's stay on the Supreme Court while we're there and with Lisa take advantage of Lisa being with us. So two major cases and a third coming up mail-in ballots, Watson versus the Republican National Committee. I never thought in my lifetime I'd be talking about a Mississippi case where Mississippi was defending voting rights. But we are along with 29 other states giving a grace period. As long as you cast mark your ballot, you elect who you want to elect and it's postmarked

1:00:45by election day, five business day grace period or some grace period. It'll still be counted. We're not talking about fraud. We're just talking about when the males can deliver. I mailed a letter from Miami to New York. It took eight days to show up. Seriously. Okay. So we have a mail-in ballot and oral argument the next day. I'll Ocho Latos on the other side. civic group, immigration group, brings a case about how far into the United States do you have to be in order to ask for asylum? And if you're blocked from ever putting your toe on U.S. soil purposefully by the border patrol and by the policies of a president, does that deny you the ability to ever ask for asylum? Or if you put it another way, if you sneak in and you're in the United States apparently, you can ask for asylum. But if you come in the front door and nobody opens it for you,

1:01:46you can't apply. This was all up for grabs in a couple of oral arguments and then one that's coming up in April on birthright citizenship. Lisa, why don't you try to tie it together a bit, even though they're on different topics? These are statutory interpretations, not constitutional. That's one good thing about them. So as I've joked, the future Congress can fix what the Supreme Court has broken. But why don't you tell our audience what all this mail-in-balloting business is all about? Well, I think a lot of people don't realize that mail-in-ballot states back to the Civil War. Soldiers in the Civil War who were voting during the Civil War voted by mail. This is not some new process. This is not some newfangled democratic conspiracy. This is a long standing way in which Americans have voted for more than 150, more than 170 years in this country. Now, some states have made it easier to vote by mail. Some states like Oregon have exclusively

1:02:48vote by mail. In the last presidential election, for example, in 2024, tens of millions of Californians voted by mail. And it has been the practice in almost all the states that there's a grace period where if you vote and the vote is post-marked before the election or by election day, that vote is counted. That's because what we see on election night is just sort of the public statement about who won the election, but it's not the actual certification. So people have a chance to cure ballots if they voted provisionally. There's a chance to recount those ballots before it's certified. So there's a period of a couple days typically after the actual election day where ballots are counted and recounted and then finalized and certified. This isn't abnormal. This is normal. There's no indication of fraud of any kind through this process. And yet you have the Republican Party and the Republican Party apparatus attacking this process before the Supreme Court. And at the oral argument that just recently happened, the question was raised, I think, toward the end of oral argument,

1:03:52about whether if the Supreme Court were to rule that Congress can set one single day for voting, meaning that no vote that arrives the day after, even it was post-marked eight days before, like your mail, Michael, that that can't count. Despite the voters intent to vote, despite it being a legitimate ballot by an American, if the Court were to rule that way, it may well invalidate all early voting for tens of millions of Americans. Which they said, which when that came up, that was the only moment I thought, oh, wait a minute, let them run with this, Amy Cody Barrett and Chief Justice Roberts. Roberts at one point said to Sauer, I don't understand. You're not logically consistent. If you're saying there's an election day and it has to be respected and mail-in ballots would never have been contemplated by 1845, the 1845 Congress, how do you explain, and Amy Cody Barrett said the same thing? How do you explain early voting? Early voting would have been contemplated by them either. Are you here trying to quash early voting? Oh, no, no, no,

1:04:56early voting is okay. We're okay with that. So I don't even, they're going to have to ignore the arguments apparently of John Sauer and Paul Clement, who argued for the RNC or one of the other groups, the Libertarian group, and they're going to have to come up with their own crazy, convoluted theory as to why mail-in ballots have to be received on election day in order to be counted, right? Because I don't see how they can do it based on the logic of the argument. No, they get it. And also in the middle of all this, Donald Trump just voted by mail in the Mar-a-Lago election, where his candidate lost. And so it's all, you know, it's just all manufactured efforts to try to make it harder for Americans votes to vote and have their votes count. And then meanwhile, you have an argument coming up next week on April 1st. Before you go on that, before you go that, let me have Lisa comment on the mail-in ballot. Yeah, yes, yes. I said, Dina, sorry. And it's okay. Well, speaking about convoluted, you know, Justice Gorscht got super convoluted. He didn't like the fact that Mississippi was saying that, you know, having an official carrier

1:05:59mail-in was safe and, you know, should be respected, you know, that the state law was willing to have that official carrier. And so he gave this convoluted example of, well, then could a state say that a notary republic, like as if you submit a your ballot, would it be the same to mail your ballot as to submit it to a notary republic who would, you know, say what day that you sent it? And what if the Supreme Court justice was the notary republic? I mean, as examples were absurd, you know, the Supreme Court usually always says, we are going to decide a case based on the facts in front of us. But Justice Gorscht tried to use these examples, like as if a state was ever going to authorize the use of a notary republic. No, no voter is going to go to the notary republic. These convoluted ways that they, and the Mississippi lawyer just, he just was in circles. He was, he was tied into knots trying to answer Justice Gorscht. Justice Sotomayor jumped in a few times to try to save him

1:07:05and coach him through these kind of convoluted examples Gorscht was giving. Yeah, I don't think that I don't think that advocate did very well. I know. Yeah, well, and also just goes to show the desperation in some ways of someone like Gorscht to try to posit such a ridiculous set of examples. And I think, you know, so it may be that they do not invalidate this long-standing practice. But I also think that that could be, that could then give them cover for the other maneuvers that John Roberts is orchestrating attacking the Voting Rights Act, you know, his long-standing antipathy toward the Voting Rights Act. So we might survive in part because it is absurd from a historical matter to be attacking vote by male when it's been with us for over a century. So let's hope that we're all sort of wrong. Yeah, let's hope we're wrong. And then in June, when we get the decision, it's not as bad as we think, but you're right. Lee said it'll just be sort of cover for a terrible Voting Rights Act decision

1:08:06coming out of the Calet case in Louisiana. While, while we're here before we take our next break, Lisa, why don't you frame what happened with asylum, which is at the southern border and other places, if you get to a port of entry, and you see the border patrol, you should be able to ask for asylum. But the Supreme Court mag is sick seem to have a different view of what it means about arriving in or being physically present in the United States. Again, just so I frame it for our audience, they don't get confused. The Supreme Court is the final say on what the Constitution says. But not every case involves the Constitution. And in some cases, only involves federal statutory interpretation. Sometimes there's a mix, there's a hybrid, there's a statute, it's about power, it's about the extent of the statute, whether it violates the Constitution in some way or an executive order violates the Constitution in some way. But in this case, it's really a statutory analysis about a statute related to asylum, a statute that if it goes the wrong way in this decision

1:09:13could be fixed by a future Congress, right? That's right, although I will say to you, Michael, I am working on the important effort of raising questions about whether the Court actually should have the final say on some of these matters constitutionally, which is, we'll have that debate. You're doing another part. I love it. But the fact is that it's statutory interpretation matters, are typically matters where Congress has a much freer hand to try to redress a decision of the Supreme Court. I think that there are constitutional decisions that do need to also be redressed by Congress, given the way this Court has been captured and the problems with just the inherent inconsistency and politicization of these rulings by this Court. But in this instance, you have a, there's long setting international law on refugees, people fleeing persecution. This came out of World War II where ships were turned away and people were then killed, persecuted because they could not seek refuge in another country. The Jewish citizens of

1:10:21Europe perished because they could not, in some instances, get refugee status. They could not get accepted by other countries. There was a whole set of international laws, including domestic laws that were counterparts to those laws on refugees and on the issue of persecution. Back in 1980, which seems like a long time ago, there was a set of U.S. laws on refugee status. But what happened was not to get too far into the weeds on it, but what happened was in 1993, the Rankus Court issued a ruling involving Haitians seeking asylum or seeking refuge in the U.S. that allowed the Coast Guard to stop them in the waters. And that was seen by that Rankus Court as a correct decision, Justice Blackman descended. So there's this precedent and the sales case involving Haitian refugees that is the foothold, the toehole for John Sauer and the Trump administration to say they can move that from the waters into just feet from the border

1:11:23in Mexico, for example, and block people from seeking asylum. And the fact is that the United States typically, with few exceptions, actually has honored those asylum laws because it is a commitment of human rights that we do not send people back to their death, that we embrace people who are fleeing persecution and allow them the opportunity to seek asylum and have a process for doing so. But what the Trump administration did in the first term and has reversed Biden's policy now in the second term to do this again has been what they try to call meetering, meaning that they are trying to stop people before they get to actually put their foot on the U.S. territory, like right outside the border. Those are U.S. agents, agents of America, you know, being deployed to try to block people from seeking asylum. I think that I think those cases should be revisited. I think that we need to have a process for honoring those commitments to human rights. But the fact is, is that this administration has taken an extremely harsh stance against people

1:12:23seeking freedom from persecution, seeking to escape possible death or injury or torture by their home governments. And this court may well end up ruling in favor of the Trump administration in part because of that bad precedent from 1993, even though that precedent really is contrary to the actual statutes in the United States about seeking asylum, people arriving in the United States, and it seems like a real technicality to say, you didn't arrive if I blocked you one foot outside the border or 10 feet outside the border, that seems like a real gaming with people's lives in a way that is really unjustified. Yeah, and the ninth circuit had said that presenting yourself to a border official was the same as being there because of the fact that you were being stopped not because you didn't walk to extra feet, but because that official was stopping you. And so that's what the ninth circuit had ruled. Now, this metering law is actually suspended. It's not being used right now. And I, Justice Katanjee Brown-Jackson,

1:13:27tried to bring that into the oral argument and say, isn't this case moot because this law is not an effect? And I think that was her way of kicking, hoping to kick the can because it looks like they are poised to basically overturn the ninth circuit and allow this metering. So, but the Trump administration came back saying, well, it's, it's paused now, but we can restart it in any time. But that was her one chance, I think, to try to stop it. And we've talked about this. This is not about you do not seek asylum and then automatically get citizenship. Like, I did pro bono asylum cases at my law firm. It's very complicated. People are often, you know, don't even know English and are trying to go through this very long and difficult process with multiple court hearings. This is just about giving people a chance. People who have traversed from sometimes hundreds thousands miles away and the most horrific conditions to try to just present their case there. And it's not because of

1:14:31their own effort. It is because of literally somebody locking the door. I want to talk about that for a minute as it relates to the birthright citizenship. Okay. Lisa raised the Haitian case, you know, the interdiction case where they wouldn't let Haitians get what's called in the business dry foot. It used to be called a wet foot dry foot policy, right? Dry foot meant you made it to American land Cubans in Miami were often allowed to get dry foot, but if you were a wet foot, any you couldn't get in, you were still at sea. In other words, then you were not put through the immigration process or asylum. Let's play this out. We just had a case in which the Supreme Court seems hellbent on saying you got to get your foot in the door and touch American soil or beyond American soil in order to apply for asylum. Do we all agree on that? That's sort of where this or this oral argument seems to be going with the Supreme Court. Lisa, yeah. Yes, I mean, yeah,

1:15:37yeah, sorry about that. In fact, I'm just double checking the case. Researching on the fly. That's fun. Can I pronounce that case, right? But that's exactly where we are. Yeah, all right. So now let's play that. Let's stay on. Let's stay on together here. Birthright citizenship. 14th Amendment effectively says if you're born here, touch U.S. soil where you're born in U.S. air as a baby. No, baby is hopefully not immediately on U.S. oil. And that's something's terribly awry in the process. This is kind of bad. This example is going south. No, I just had a baby two years ago. I was in the room. I know what happens. But you got to be on U.S. soil, U.S. territory for that to happen. And then you're given by way of the Constitution citizenship. So you're not stateless. Like we don't have people, babies who were born where the government looks over the shoulder of an American hospital or whatever and says, Hey, you're now a citizen of Honduras. Like what? Like, you know, we're your stateless. Go live at the airport like Tom Hanks in that movie. Okay. So if you got to be on U.S. soil.

1:16:43And okay. And they just made a big deal out of not making it, you know, getting to the last mile, the last meter and not getting to the door. Okay. What are they going to do when they hear oral argument about babies forget their parents, babies who were born on U.S. soil or territory and the 14th amendment being changed by an executive order. Having having heard it's a completely different thing, but having heard the oral argument. How do you think birthright citizenship? How do you think the numbers pan out there for the April oral argument on there? In other words, is this Robert slash Amy Coney Barrett led Supreme Court going to rip out the beating heart of birthright citizenship from the 14th amendment during this term? Lisa? Oh, I'll go. I mean, this is this is a dog of a case. This is a case where the Constitution is crystal clear

1:17:45that if you're born in the United States, you're a citizen. It's in the first paragraph. It's right up front. It was part of the, you know, the core language getting adopted by the Republican Congress back in the post civil war era. And in Supreme Court rulings dating back to the 1890s, it's been clear that it applies to that people who are born in the United States are citizens. Even the statute, you know, in the 1950s about the Immigration Nationality Act, it, you know, it also has been interpreted and was interpreted then as exactly what it says if you're born in the United States, you're a citizen. That's, um, there's a Latin term like Usterra, J-U-S-T-E-R-R-R-A, which is you are born, like, that's your citizenship. You're born here. Trump's effort in early last year, a year ago to assert that he could just declare people not to be citizens of their born here is totally on constitutional. It should be a 9-0 decision against him. They should be rebuked. When you look at the groups that are on board sliding with Trump, it's like John Eastman, who was the guy at the heart of the effort to basically try to subvert

1:18:50our election in 2020. They have right wing groups that are tied to Steven Miller, who's no lawyer, plays one on TV apparently, but who has also asserted a whole array of things that are not cost usually true or valid. And they're the ones advising Trump that he could do this. He can't. But, you know, Thomas and Alito are particularly in the tank for Trump. Kavanaugh seems to be there, you know, quite a bit, certainly even in the TERF's case, which was ridiculous. That should have been a 9-0 decision. We may end up with a decision that is five, you know, that is five four in favor of the Constitution and against Trump. And that would just be because this is a ridiculous set of claims by Donald Trump, backed by fringe theory scholars, rejected by every real, you know, every major scholar who's looked at this, you know, it is an outrageous thing that we're even having a debate about this because it is so basic to American

1:19:51history. And yet here we are with Trump, you know, putting another trial balloon up about this power. And as you point out, Michael, having just heard argument about where the line of territory is and why it matters for, you know, the size of US jurisdiction or due process rights. And then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's a really outlandish, inconsistent position. The administration is taking. Let me just read, let me just read for our audience and what they're hanging their hat on. I'll bring Tina in. Yeah. Section one of the 14th Amendment, which is one of the reconstruction amendments in that came out all kind of in a row. If you want to watch a great movie about some of them, Lincoln, all persons born were naturalized in the United States. And subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. All persons born. Now what they're hanging their hat on is at comma and subject to the

1:20:54jurisdiction thereof, comma, there's commas there, by the way. And so they're arguing, oh, because their parents are illegals, they're not, the baby is not subject to the jurisdiction of this country. They're the subject to the jurisdiction of Honduras or Mexico or Somalia. I mean, it is such a bad faith argument that any other lawyer or group would be sanctioned for this bad faith. It's not even a, it's not even, it'd be rule 11 sanctioned for a bad faith extension of the law in a misreading of the language, Tina. I mean, this Supreme Court is not afraid to reinterpret or change the interpretation of the constitution. They're the most activist Supreme Court ever changing, you know, overturning row. It's Humphrey's executor that had been a hundred year case getting rid of it. I mean, we called our our Supreme Court show unprecedented poke up because it is. They don't care about precedent. The fact is this is what they're going to hang their hat on. And also the fact that Supreme Court took this case at all is very disturbing

1:21:58because of how settled this law is. But they're hanging their hat on the fact that the, the 1898 Supreme Court case had to do with a baby born in the United States. And his parents were Chinese immigrants, but they had legal status here. There were permanent residents. The holding did not say that that was why the young Kim arc actually had birthright citizenship. The Supreme Court didn't hold that in the decision, but it mentioned in the opinion that and you tie that with their philosophy, as you said in the reading of that, that subject to the legal jurisdiction. And what I'm afraid of is that there's not going to be a complete overturn of birthright citizenship, but the incremental change with Chief Justice Roberts likes the incremental change. He did that with Humphrey's executive. He started to chip away at it. He was against the overturning of row, not because he didn't

1:22:59want to overturn it. He doesn't like to do anything all at once. And my worry is that the incremental change they're going to do here is say that a baby born here to completely undocumented residents does not have citizenship, but if you can be born here to somebody with legal status, but not a citizen and still change it. And that's how they're going to incrementally change it. And I think there is a real risk of that happening. Yeah. I thought, I thought his parents were in that case. I thought his parents were still Chinese nationals. I didn't, I didn't, is that right? Lisa, where does parents still, like, still kind of, yes, yes, yes. All right. The emperor of China was still their, their guy. Well, in part because there were, there were other cases and other laws of the time as a Chinese exclusion to try to deprive a Chinese rail workers building the railroad across the country from getting access to citizenship. But, you know, this question of the absurdity of claiming that a

1:24:00baby born here is not subject to U.S. jurisdiction or that their parents aren't subject to U.S. jurisdiction is outlandish when you have anyone in the United States subject to U.S. jurisdiction, the only people who are actually not subject to U.S. are diplomats on their, on diplomatic soil or the American Aboriginal people when they're uncertain things, depending on whether they're on tribal land or not. But that's a very good point. Like, for instance, are you saying, then, Donald Trump, that that baby born from parents who are not here with proper status can go out and commit murder, can double park and right to violate the laws, but they're because they're not subject to the, where are tourists coming and committing crime, that's how we can prosecute them. Wait till wait till Kataji Brown Jackson and so to Mallorcagan start running their thought experiment during the war. Exactly. Because, because anyone in the United States is subject to U.S. jurisdiction, period, unless it is those rare instances, for example, where you have indigenous people with

1:25:04sovereign land, that is their sovereign land in which you have to have agreements, and similarly when ambassadors are here, you know, in their, in their, in their, you know, residents. That's why we see cars parked in New York in front of embassies with all parking tickets on it, with diplomatic rates. Yeah, everyone else. Yeah, everyone else is subject to U.S. jurisdiction. Period. It is a ridiculous argument. And John Sauer, it's not the first ridiculous argument. John Sauer will make. We saw him make arguments in the U.D. about, you know, still team six and whether the president could assassinate an opponent. Yeah. They are willing to do anything to do the bidding of Donald Trump. And as Deena points out, the fact that the court took this case, the Robert's court took this case is a bad sign that they may in fact try to rule in favor of Donald Trump in a way in case in which no one should be ruling in favor of Trump's interpretation. It is counter historical, counterfactual, counter legal, counter constitutional. It's absurd. And it would cause chaos in our hospitals. Like, and like you said, Michael, at the beginning,

1:26:10who, where, where would, who would these kids be citizens of, if not the place to work there? You don't understand. But this is a, we, we'd give you a bananza, a corticopia of Supreme Court information here, taking advantage of Lisa being with us here as a guest anchor on Legal AF. We've got to take another break. So many ways to support what we do here. Legal AF, the YouTube channel needs your help, your love, your support to get to 1.1 million this weekend. We will do it with your help. Just take your thumb or your finger. Just hit the subscribe button. Legal AF sub-stack, same thing. If you don't know about sub-stack, come over and learn about it. If you're there already, keep us in the top five of, of news, all news on sub-stack. And you'll see the writings of Tina Dahl and Lisa Graves and by live reports on sub-stack. And then we've got our pro-democracy sponsors. And here's a word. Delete me makes it easy quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. Look, as someone with an active

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1:30:26off your first bidet order at hellotushy.com with promo code legal AF again for a limited time our listeners get 10% off their first bidet order when you use code legal AF at checkout that's 10% off at hellotushy.com with promo code legal AF. Welcome back to the midweek edition of legal AF the podcast. Michael Popeau here of course we've got Dean Atal and Lisa Graves sitting in both for Karen Friedman at Nifalo. Lots of things you know these shows are great and I love being on with you guys. We could do this we could do a three hour show easily and we try to curate for everybody there's so many things that happened today in the last 48 hours even some that fell off the continuum for what we're going to cover today like as we were coming on the DOJ led by Donald Trump is going to settle with Michael Flynn who was convicted by Robert Mueller who just died a couple of days ago for crimes that he committed but now we're going to pay his him for being convicted

1:31:28just like we paid Ashley Babet and her family because she tried to break through the speaker's corridor and and do whatever she was going to do with murderous rants during Jan 6th this is what Donald Trump tries to do he's tried to make heroes out of the Jan Sixers he's he's given the Partens even ones that have now have committed other crimes I mean we've got the guy that bought tried to bomb the DNC and the RNC he's claiming he was partens and he can't go after him for male bombing either I mean for a for setting up those bombs as well so lots of different cases that of course we could have covered now but the one that I liked for today is this one about this ongoing saga of Donald Trump's fight to the death although it's a one-sided fight because he's fighting on his own with fed reserve chairman Jay Powell and Jay Powell by natural expiration of his term would be out of the chairmanship of the federal reserve on May 15th

1:32:29but Donald Trump didn't want to do that so since he's got in office the guy that he appointed back in 20 that was Donald Trump at the post-war with with appointing Jay Powell and complimenting him now he's late and he's stubborn and he's stupid and he won't cut interest rates and blah blah blah okay so we had a federal judge a week ago two weeks ago Jeb Bosberg chief judge over all things grand jury in DC who declared after seeing things that we didn't see including evidence that he demanded the government provide he did the extraordinary thing of intervening in a prosecution investigation and quashing the subpoenas against Jay Powell for crimes related to construction cost overruns and or statements that he made in January of 2025 about those cost overruns I mean look you want to show me the bank accounts that Jay Powell has money from bribes from suppliers and contractors related to the the multi-billion dollar renovation of these hundred year old buildings

1:33:32great bring it but if you don't have that short of that Jay Powell's got a day job and that is to connect the American economy to the world and tether it to reality against much headwind from Donald Trump he's Jay job is not being the owner's rep on the construction site nor the GC nor the inspector general nor any of it and the fact that there's cost overruns including the ballroom that Donald Trump is building and every building ever built in DC is not an indicia of fraud and now we've got the bombshell report that came out of a new transcript that just got revealed that Janine Piro's right hand person the head of the criminal division for the Department of Justice is U.S. Attorney's Office in DC admitted to Jeb Bozberg the judge that they had no evidence to support the criminal case against Jay Powell yet they continue to go after Jay Powell Lisa what do you make of it well I mean this is just more misuse of the prosecutorial power the

1:34:33power of the prosecution power of the Justice Department is vast and it it being wielded by this administration against Trump's enemies or people who doesn't like or people who wants to replace it is really a travesty I'm afraid that we're actually going to have to end up we the people the tax here are going to end up paying people who were who were who were harassed by Donald Trump without our consent as he deploys the Department of Justice this way and I think that when you when you see what happened in this case you see a judge saying you cannot prosecute someone where there's no evidence of criminal wrongdoing that's just prosecution 101 that's law 101 that's justice 101 and yet that has not been an impediment to the people that Donald Trump has hand picked to do his bidding like Janine Piro like Pam Bondy and others who are really his hatchet people are doing the doing basically his political agenda trying to use the awesome powers of prosecution against people whether they're powerful people or not in order to advance Trump's agenda and I will say to you

1:35:35both again this is partly John Roberts fault because in that terrible immunity decision John Roberts asserted that a president can direct the Justice Department in ways that it has not been directed for basically in our lifetime since Nixon tried to you know got bored basically to fire the the prosecutor Archibald Cox who was investigating Nixon and his men and so you know the fact is that we only have someone like Judge Bozberg to stand in to stand up and say this is impermissible this is illegal in essence you cannot use the prosecutorial power to harass someone where there's no evidence of criminal wrongdoing and there is no evidence of criminal wrong doing by chairman Powell and as you point out Michael I don't even remember the last building in DC that wasn't subject to a cost overrun what one of the interesting for I turn it over to Dean for the final word on it one of the interesting things that came out of the unsealed filings many of these soft filings had been sealed because they related to grand jury work is the lineup of lawyers

1:36:36that you and I are paying for all three of us are paying for representing the federal reserve and Jay Powell on the federal reserve side they hired Robert Herr who was the special counsel against Joe Biden on his on his handling of documents he's the guy that put the final nail in Joe Biden's coffin that of the debate about well he's a frail old guy with failing memory who couldn't remember who he was or where he was so I'm not going to prosecute him that Robert Herr but he's also a Republican and so to insulate I think the federal reserve to say look we hired Robert Herr you guys like Robert Herr when we when he went after Joe Biden we're using him and then on the other side Jay Powell hired listen to this he hired a guy one of his many lawyers who used to be the general counsel at news court Fox news therefore he was the legal boss for Janine Pirro when she was at Fox she knows this guy well I don't know if he's the Janine Pirro whisperer or just as giving

1:37:39the team information about how Janine works but I don't think it's random that the general counsel for Fox and news court who's probably hasn't tried a case in 30 years is on the trial team for for Jay Powell I think a brilliant strategy in this lawyering part Dina what did you make of this new revelation that just came out as you as we close I mean the fact that Janine Pirro admitted that she didn't have any event show that there was absolutely nothing because if they even had a shred of something that they could spend they would have and most likely she admitted it because people might want to run earth she admitted was because she saw what happened with Trump's lawyers the first time around all the lawyers in the 2020 you know election where they tried to say that there was fraud Rudy Giuliani and others who basically lied or misled the court that there was evidence when there wasn't all got to spark she's an attorney and that is a little bit more of a

1:38:42check than perhaps a Trump officials not an attorney because they can think well maybe Congress will never prosecute us or the DOJ but we are seeing a lot I mean hello Lindsay Halligan we are seeing attorneys getting disbarred or investigated by their bar associations so you know poor drone pal I mean my gosh talk about a public servant just trying to do his job and really getting harassed for it's really disgrace absolutely I will continue to follow it it actually it wasn't Janine Powell it wasn't it wasn't pure but it was her number two who admitted it in a court hearing that the judge held once again reinforcing the great work the jet boastberg is doing against his own personal attacks by Donald Trump they've tried I mean I mean if if this was Salem I mean witches in Salem have been put through less tests than jet boastberg I mean they they've tried into one representative

1:39:42in Texas try to defund just jet boastberg's court another one tried to impeach him another one the Trump administration filed a judicial complaint against him and yet who's still standing on the other side of the rule of law jet boastberg doing his job now we'll have to see what if I'd like to see finally my last comment here is to have the the appellate court for the DC circuit affirm finally something that jet boastberg is doing they haven't supported him that you know they didn't support him on the JGG case related to the Venezuelan the Venezuelans who were sent to El Salvador of torture prison they didn't support him on the probable cause to find criminal contempt in that case a couple of times they got a step forward and start supporting these district court judges who know what they're doing and support him here now I know there's going to be a whole argument right we saw it with when when Eileen Cannon got slapped by the 11th circuit when she tried to interfere in the executive branches investigation of Donald Trump back in the Mar-a-Lago case and she

1:40:46was told by the 11th circuit to back off that's not the role of trial court judges here however jet boastberg made it clear if I find that the primary intent of the prosecution is to harass and intimidate the target and not because they believe in reasonable good faith that he committed a crime I can quash the investigation yeah that's going to go up on appeal now we'll see it will follow it hour by hour minute by minute here on legal AF I'm glad everybody's here in our audience thank you for being such fervent supporters of what we do hit the subscribe button on legal AF the podcast on the audio side apple and Spotify tell your friends about our video version here our legal AF and on minus touch on the YouTube side support us on YouTube for legal AF by hitting the subscribe button there we'll get to 1.1 million subscribers with your help and of course we've got the legal AF sub stack as well where you can become a member and a paid member

1:41:47and get live reports every day a big shout out and thank you and hug group hug for Dina doll and Lisa graves who starting in April we'll be doing a legal AF on a Monday night on the legal AF YouTube channel as well as we kind of extend the brand bit a little bit there and I thought it'd be a fun idea with Karen not feeling well today to bring in Dina and Lisa thank you for being here tonight thank you for having us absolutely and shout out to the mightest mighty of the legal AFers you're having a good time you're out drinking with the boys now it's time to pay the tab $11,352.47 wait what well there are court costs attorney fees higher insurance costs damaged to your car do you why finds oh not to mention the damage to your social life plan a sober ride or pay the price drinking and driving costs more than your drinks

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