Leaders Change But the Church Continues

0:00Welcome to Dying to Live, a weekly podcast where we discuss theology, culture and what it means to do life together. So let's get going with today's episode. And the excitement in the studio this morning is palpable. Is that a correct word? It's a good term. Hello, Wayne, how are you? I'm well, thank you, Nadine. Amazing. And also feeling the excitement from your side. It's always wonderful to get together for another recording of the Dying to Live podcast. And it's passionate drives us because we have amazing people who share with us amazing journeys. So we've got a number of podcasts in our recording today to get through. And it's going to be very, very insightful as well as challenging. So what do we need to let our, okay, our viewers know on YouTube. But you need to share to follow the comment and to like and to like.

1:02So please, when you, whatever social media on, please share it. We want to get the podcast out as far and as wide as possible because of just what God is doing through the podcast. Now people are being changed how their testimonies coming through. You've received testimonies as well. Yeah, particularly on Spotify, you're able to actually in the comment section, just put a comment about how this podcast has impacted you. And it's wonderful to hear from people far and wide just how God's using the podcast to encourage them to build into them. So please do that. And also if you have any requests for particular podcasts that you'd like to hear about, you can either comment in that section there or send us an email at podcastatjoshgene.org.cd and send us lots of them. And there's something else. This is a significant month, September. We are in our third year. Wow. I think almost 170,000 downloads and 160 podcasts. It's far away from the humble beginnings and talking about humble beginnings. One of those involved in those humble beginnings is one of our guests today, but we'll introduce

2:05them now. So the podcast is all about how and where, with who do we process change and that's change in leadership. In our New Testament DNA lifestyle, we have relationships and getting to know people living each in each other's lives. And also with our leaders, we share their lives. It's not the past that they are in the congregation in a different place. And so in this change, it's often difficult. Different people process it differently. And when leaders move on and new ones come, how do we process this and to help us on this very, very challenging journey of changing leadership is Tony Strubel just introduce yourself. Hi, yeah, I'm Tony. Elder in Justin and now currently in Fischung. Yeah, you gain through quite a transition at the moment. Yes. As with our other guest, my name is Dylan Jones. I'm glad you remembered. I love you. I love you. I love you. I love you.

3:06I love you. I love you. I love you. I'm currently in Fischung, but looking to plant in city ball in the next while they live in a service. They live in a service. Yeah. These two gentlemen are really qualified and they've become very qualified in the last few months as they've had to process change of leadership, change of venue. And there are a lot of things that you change as well, your location where you live. And this also applies to saints who have to do the same thing, maybe not as frequently as elders do, but so take a listen. These guys are going to be sharing with us a lot of great insight on how we process. Let's start with you, Tony. Tell us a little bit about your journey first. As far back as we're in. I mean, just wait. You've just been on the chair. You've been on the chair. You've been on the chair. I would go from when we moved into Cape Town. Right. So we joined signing up. So you were involved in a 412 church up in Cereon Hill in Boney and we led Cereon Hill

4:08Boxburg for three years in Boney and there was a journey of us feeling called to come to Cape Town. And spoke to both Andrew and Ryan and after much prayer and consideration, they both gave the green lights. And so we packed up. We moved. We came to Cape Town, not knowing what was going to come our way, but we entered it by faith. And we joined the signing bell 830 with Dan back on his team because we were on his team in Boney and back on his team. So it was a nice soft landing. There's never a soft landing with Dan. Nice, wonderful, such a good leader. And yeah, so that was a good year and a half. Even though we've had our own struggles, we went through, we went through what felt like a washing machine. I think God tested us in every area of our life in the last three years, but Dan's leadership was amazing. And then a year and a half later, a Monday approached us to join 11 o'clock if we could

5:10help you 11 o'clock. And we were like, yeah, if it help is needed, we'll be there. We'll do that. So as we joined 11 o'clock a week later, Joe got the news that she's got cancer. And we had to tell the eldership team, like guys, you just got a dud eldership couple. I'm so sorry. I don't know how helpful we'll be, but we need your help over this time. Honestly, I can say that 11 o'clock, signing down, Joe's team has been a most incredible team. Honestly, we love that team so much, full of joy, full of laughter, so much fun. And I think God had us there for a reason because it has been such a, it's been a brilliant hospital for us, brilliant healing for us in that sense. So, but during that process, God stole it on our hearts to plant in Fischuk. Tell us about the journey about the trips around the peninsula in Joe's Hill. Yeah, so we were joking, Hill, we couldn't go out to do anything much.

6:15She didn't have capacity for much, but what we could do was drive around, at least, you know, so we drove around. And I was always just drawn to go over the mountain. And Nurtuk and Komi Ki and Samas Town and those areas and just we drove constantly up and down that way. Probably sometimes even two, three times a week to be honest with you. Like, this is lovely. And I didn't know we were spying at the land, but eventually I just felt like something in my heart, you know, when you feel like, I feel like, I feel like I'm pulling us to this area. Like as we go over the mountain and I just see this value of people, I felt like this is God's kingdom. Like the promised land. I did feel like that. I felt like, yes, I felt like this is like God's kingdom needs to come. I feel like this is God's kingdom. And I sat down and shared it with Monei. Very excited. I should have been like, this, we need to do something.

7:17And I first shared it with my wife and she was like, no, definitely no. But I mean, she was fighting for her life. But then I also shared it with Monei. And Monei was like, cool, okay, let's shelve it and let's see what the Lord does. And that's what we did in the year later. Only went on the church plant as course. Yeah, year later we were put on a church plant as course. And during that time we heard that someone was stolen your fund. Dylan and then found a venue in Fisheryx. I was like, oh man, that's okay. It's a bummer, but it's okay. So they just bring our listeners and our people are watching into context. So you guys were meeting in Musenberg at the time. Yeah, for five years. For five years. But there was a need for a different venue, a bigger venue. And so you found something in Fisher, because that right? Yeah, we were looking for a morning venue. Just because I think in that area people are used to church in the morning. And so the initially 5 pm and then 4 pm was really tricky to get people to.

8:20We tried to convince ourselves that it was a good time for families, but really it wasn't. I mean, that's been five years convincing people. This was the right time. And then having to convince them that actually 9 o'clock is the right time. So we found a venue after two years of looking. And the venue actually approached, which we've got ultimately, was when we'd approached two years previous. And they were just like, no, not interested at all. But the Lord's timing works in mysterious ways. And so we approached them through someone in our church who knew a fishing buddy of the guy who's the principal of the school. And we had it in, which was amazing. And now we meet in an incredible school. Amazing, really great school. And so in the meanwhile Dylan, what has been happening in your life with the transition? So much. So yeah, I think just for us, we always had a heart from Musenberg. And probably a little bit different to Tony, where we kind of felt like we were playing scene in Musenberg. We weren't so sure about Fisher, but we knew the Lord was moving the church there. And so we were kind of wrestling with that, but wanted to be faithful to the Lord of

9:23Giverness. And so we're serving in the church and kind of changing from 5pm or 4pm to 9 in a new location, in a new school. So it kind of felt like a plant, but not really. And so I had to kind of readjust my whole kind of way of thinking, okay, we're planting again. It's new. And so I'd done that. And as we were going to go overseas and holiday with our family to France, which was amazing. Luke Hally said, hey, I need to talk to you. And I was like, okay, Luke, let's get together. And he dropped a bombshell of, well, we are looking to multiply a city bowl. Love it if you guys could plant with us and hake us like, he joking. And Luke was like, no, I'm not joking. And the joke is that I always said, I'll never plant another church. I'd kind of said it a few times to people just because church planting is not for sissy's if you've been on the course. It's like a challenge accepted. Never say never. Never say never. Never say never. And so Luke had said to us, we really feel like you guys could be the right fit for city bowl. We come from city bowl. So we've been away from it for 15 years.

10:23It does feel like a full circle moment. But you are. I think that was the beginning of the process. And now we kind of in the middle of the process. So what does it look like to actually transition a church that you've laid for almost six years, people you come to love handing it over. And I said to Tony and Joe as the new lead elder ship got ball. Yeah, and I joke to Tony and Sunday again, well, we ding this podcast on it. So the wheels don't fall off in the next few weeks. We will see it next week. But the point does is that's a matter of what happens. It'll be fine. This one's going to go out on Monday. Yeah, the scene of the video. Just in case. Yeah, yeah, it's been it's been an amazing process so far. It's really, really. So the interesting thing is that I don't know whether it was premeditated. Not while you were away, Tony came in for the time you overseas, helped with worship, helped jewels. Was that part of the whole process? So we went to quite sure. Yeah, we went to church planters. And the last month of church planters, it was kind of like almost like a practical month where guys would go out and preach. But Monane Dan asked us specifically because they knew we had art for fishing.

11:30Instead of us going around to the different churches and preaching, could we just stick around fishook and be part of the team there while Dylan and Haike went overseas. Right. And then we also said to Dion, when we got that Tony and Joey should come to fishook. So I didn't. Yeah. Dion being the hub overseas. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, made the most sense. Yeah. So I'm sure there's very mixed feelings involved when there's a leadership transition. There's the joy of the new thing that God's calling you into. But there's also a sense I'm sure of maybe not loss, but sadness because these like like when said in the intro, these are people who you learn to love and not just you share life with, not just ministry with. It's not a functional thing. It's a deeply relational thing. So can you talk to us a little bit about that? Maybe just from the leader side and then we'll jump also into how members themselves can experience it. I mean, if you look at Paul in X20 when he's leaving the Fiji and church, like they're crying, right?

12:31There's tears as real tears knowing that they won't ever see Paul again. Obviously, that's not the case. We're still in the same hub, but there is still a separation as much as you will see people. We don't see them as much as we'd like to. I mean, we have friends and different congregations that we've planted with churches over the years and we see them maybe once a year and it's great when we see them, but we don't see them as much as we'd like to. And so I think it can be a tricky thing. I think it's a leader you need to guard your heart as well and go like, how do I do this well without feeling that I'm being kind of taken out of a position or... Yeah, I don't know. It's an interesting one. But I think it is. I feel like the Lord is in it, but I've had to guard my hearts as well. There is a sense of grief and loss. Yeah, we need people. We need to cry a lot. I mean, the last sermon I preached in a city in Peshok, I did cry a lot. It was like, hey, there was a real sense. And I think this is something that came to us before. It was a real sense that we were leading people to Peshok, but we weren't going to lead

13:31them in Peshok. And I just felt like that was a transition that I had to make my own heart going, hey, I'm not the guy to lead you in what's happening now, but the Lord is a point in someone else. And so that's a joyful thing as much as it's said that will be gone and we'll miss you. It feels a little bit like a Moses in a Joshua moment, doesn't it? You know, Moses forbade the people in a sense for the promised land and what Larihid and yet there was a sense of he wouldn't go with him into that. There has been a preparation and looking forward in a building with. Yeah. I do. I do. You showed that little experience you had standing viewing. Yeah. So it was, I think the second meeting of the first meeting you had our standing outside and in a way it came up to me and said, you looked like Moses looking over the land. I was like, yes, I prefer to go in, but Moses didn't actually go into the land. He just kind of, I was gracious enough for him to see the land, but he didn't actually get into it. There was a little moments like that. And obviously, as I mentioned, we went over seas and I was kind of still wrestling with a little bit. Hygur felt very clearly. Actually, while Luke was still there, she went straight to a room and started praying.

14:34She was like, I need to process this with the Lord very quickly and she did and she thought the Lord spoke very clearly. But I still need to hear from the Lord myself and we went over seas as I said, we went to the conference in Netherlands. And we got a prophetic word from Matt from Alehmann, which is a spot on. And so that really settled our hearts a lot as well, just going ahead and loaded in the seas to the in this, which is great. It's another excitement of moving forward. And for you, Tony. Well, we're very excited. You guys have actually gone through a few just in terms of describing your journey just now. A few of these transitions in terms of linking your hearts with people, building with them and they're moving on and they're linking and moving on. So we were, to be honest with you, we became very comfortable at 11 o'clock signing del because we absolutely loved the team there. I would say again, they loved us so well. And so our hearts definitely knitted well with the guys there. So our children have friends there, even that in itself, to let go of that and then to

15:37my faith, going to a new land, you know, you, you, yeah. Talking to that. Talking to that dynamic of having to process and maybe you can also chip and dole processing it with your family because you're an elder ship. You both as elder ship couples have been very clearly led, called by God, but kids don't often have a personal call in their fellow their parents. How do you process that? You know, we've always said to our kids and we've, Joan, I've been the, the couple that always says, we're ever when, ever Lord. And so it feels like all we've done in our whole married life was move around for church. And we've had to take our children with us. But not in a forceful way like you'll just do whatever we say. I think it's very important to process your children while so, so we would sit them down, explain how we are feeling, what we're feeling in the Lord. But could they also pray with us, bring them along the journey? Could you also hear the Lord? And we would love to hear what you are feeling, you know?

16:37So I think when they included in that sense, they take ownership of it. And in a sense you've broken open, that opened for them. Because look at Elijah, within follow the sense of God's call to America for his season. Yes. And even you're on a Sunday. And the Sunday's on P.E. There's something that they've caught from you in terms of when the Lord calls. Yes. We say yes, Lord. But there's a definite sense of excitement on your goals, because they're the ones we've met in the congregation. Yes. And I'm sure they're processing stuff, but they, it's not very evident. They are excited. They are excited. They are really excited. We've had some personal conversations. They've got very close friends that, again, it's not that they're never going to see them. We're only an hour away. So they can spend weekends and things. But there's a definite sense of like, oh, I'm losing my school friends. I'm losing some church friends. And having to process that buff faith, then another Lord will add. Dylan, speak to us about how the people in your congregation can experience.

17:40The news of a change of leader. Hopefully the answer's not some. We're so excited and we need to. Lots of cheering. No, no, no. No, I think we try to do it as well as we could in a slowly as we needed to. What does that process look like? And so I think we first had to come to terms with the fact that the Lord was moving us. And so as I said, we as a family had gone overseas. And so we'd process that a little bit together. A lot like Tony, my daughter's first reaction was like, no, we love where we live. Like they've grown up in Edhas. And so there's lots of memories and very sentimental. But I think they've, well, I know they've come around. I think they're very excited about it now, about moving, about doing something different. But we met with our leaders. So what we did was we met with people we were close to in a congregation first and just said, hey, guys, we have walked a long journey with you. We love you. But the Lord is moving us on. And there are lots of tears and lots of don't go.

18:43There's nothing to say about things. Yeah. And so it was first, press isn't with the eldership team and then with the few people, then with our broader leadership team, just spending some time with them thinking through it. Also, the meeting we had with our leaders, we had, I think Tony and Joe were there. So it was like the way I tried to do it was create some excitement up front. And I was thinking, hey, we're getting new elders, which everyone was like, yes. Which was exciting. And then, but actually they're coming in and taking it over. And so there was an excitement replaced with a bit of like, yes. But I think people had kind of had a sense of what was going to happen. And I think when, Joe had been, I mean, Tony and Joe had been here for three weeks. They're really sort of knitting hearts with people. And so every time I spoke to someone, I was like, what do you think about Tony and Joe? I love Tony and Joe. I was like, it's cool. Which is great, which is what you want, right? And so I definitely, there was a sense in the congregation of guys who excited for it. And so once the leadership team had processed it off to be spoken with some people one on one,

19:44then we took it to the congregation and just said, this is what's happening. That was interesting because you did the same thing with Tony and Joe coming on eldership, everyone's side, everyone's side in one person, shall they? As long as you guys aren't going. And then I looked it up. And then I watched Dylan's face and then within a few minutes here to say, well, God's leading us away. And the person literally the blood drained from the, because I think it was the shock of finding it out so suddenly. Yeah. There's no easy way to say it. I think there's not, I mean, you tried to do it as gently as possible and kind of, I explained the whole journey from our side with prophetic words and what Ferdinand was saying and what it looks like for us going forward. But for some people, some people are still processing it now. So I got a message from a friend of mine on Monday saying, it's only hitting me now that you're leaving. And so I suppose there's a journey of what do you think? So what do you think? Oh, some of the things that people have to process. I think it's the journeys we've walked with people. I think the friendships we've developed with people.

20:47We've been in your company with you guys and far, far plants for 16 years. So we've never been outside of a congregation with Adam. So it was quite a hectic thought, Jede process. It's a healthy sign when people are sad because you've built so well with it. You've built these. And I've even set a couple of people, don't feel bad for feeling even sad about them leaving in front of me because actually that's such a good sign that they've loved well. Yeah. And I think it's quite normal. I suppose it's also the relationships take time. When you don't have to explain why, when you're having a conversation or when you're having a meltdown or whatever it might be, when you've journeyed with somebody for a long time, it's like they know you and they know where is this thing coming from or that thing coming from. And then the idea of having to start all of that history and somebody getting to know you all over again and the trust that takes time. And that's the daunting part of transitioning a church or planting a church. I mean, we're going to 11 a.m. I mean, we went to a leaders meeting.

21:50So we got a nice and city ball and we had a confetti cannon and we did the whole thing with a spectacular music just because it just felt like we're right. I felt like an opportunity to celebrate. But while we were there with our leaders going, wow, we were here 15 years ago. We probably know 10, maybe 15 people in this room of leaders. We don't know anyone in the congregation really apart from a few. And so realizing, wow, we need to build a lot of bridges with a lot of people and a lot of friendships that'll take time. And so that's daunting as much as for Tony, it is taking over and learning how people respond to stuff. So yeah, that's a lot of work. But Tony, it has been slightly different because on your journey with the way the transitions been handled, you've got connected with people to a reasonable depth pretty quickly. Is that a God thing or is it your style? I'll go on the God thing. And you also massively post-order. No, you know what I'd say.

22:52I don't know. We just felt an instant heart knitting, heart connection with people from the first day, honestly, from the soft launch that day we just felt such a sense of like, yo, it feels like we already love these people. But you've been intentional. Yeah, yeah, we are very intentional. But I think, like Dylan said, it takes time to get to know people's reactions and how they will react to a certain way. So I've even learned like, oh, like I don't know how Dylan would have spoken to a specific person. And so he might know the nuances, I don't know yet. So I think from my side, I'm trying to take it slower before bringing anything. But it's probably good because differently, the leadership, do you deal with things? I mean, people that were the same old, same old thing. You had to fresh approach where Dylan has had to constantly plow the ground. You come and completely differently. And sometimes a person will immediately take it. You say something and it's fresh, it's new and old and old. I think it's important. If people could understand the fact that we are just two very different people and two

23:56very different sets of skills and giftings and personalities and characters, I think, yeah, we're not the same people. And I think it's fine. I think from my side, I feel confident in the fact that I am like, who God has called me to be and with the people who have found it hard or difficult, I think we need to pray into that and trust the Lord that we will be perceived well. How do you deal with the differences? We made a joke before the podcast. The new person can appear to our shine the previous person because they come up with new ideas, new things. How do you lead people in that? Because people are already going to, well, this is amazing. You're so much better at all. I know there's another congregation where the new elders and the team have to deal with it because there's another plant from the same location. Sure. My aim is to make everyone believe that I'm better than the... It's not hard. It's not hard. It's the real hard. Sorry. It's not a waste. No.

24:57No. You know what? How do I deal with people that might think? Yeah. No, not you trying to understand, but people are going to see the differences and they're going to see, well, it's so much better than... Basically, when things that you better than me tend to... That's just well we're putting it. It's fine. You're not getting a coffee. No, no. No. You should see my face on video. And this is why video is important. It applies into the whole thing of comparison. Yeah. Maybe that's a different way of putting people going... It's natural to think, oh, you know, Dylan would have done it this way. Oh, that's fine. Maybe they prefer... Dylan's well. Maybe they prefer Tony's well. And each one, like you said, has their strings and weaknesses. So in some areas, maybe they would have preferred... Oh, Dylan would have done it. Absolutely. But in other areas, it's like, oh, we love the way Tony's doing it. So... Dylan's always going to be the best way for me. Dylan, do you hear that? It's recorded.

25:57So, how can I guess... Again, speaking from a leader's perspective, but also from a member's perspective, how do we deal with that thing of comparison? We also, we shouldn't do it, but it's natural to do it. Well, I think it's important to first know that the foundation is that God is building his church, not Dylan or Tony. And God uses the people that he wants to use within building his church. And so if God has had Dylan there for a season and now has got Tony there for the next season, it's not good to do the comparison. Because God is ultimately at the steering wheel of building his church. I think it takes time as well, as you were saying earlier. Guys need to learn how Tony operates, how operate in city ball, how we would respond to stuff, how we preach, how we teach, how we lead. It's going to be different. I mean, if you're always looking back, it's like Israel is always looking back to Egypt was not that, you know, I'm making comparisons of that, but it's, but it is. Eventually, you start grumbling and going like, well, it's not about it used to be,

27:00it's not. It's something new from a completely different. So it's not helpful for a saint in that context. But this is our Dylan used to do it. No, exactly. And what I've said, I mean, hopefully what I've communicated to my leaders is Tony is the best person to lead this church forward, not me. So there's no, there's really little point in doing a comparison. The Lord is, the Lord has decided Tony's leading us forward. And so I need to keep telling people that Tony, I have been, Tony's great. Like Tony is the guy. You need to love Tony. I love Tony. We all love Tony and Joe. Like they are the ones they lead this church forward. And it's not about what I've done in the past five years. That was great. I loved it. I love you. I was an incredible journey. But now the Lord is moving us on. And so give your hearts to this man and let him lead you well. Give him grace because he's not me and I'm not him and we'll do stuff differently. But if you give yourself to him and allow the grace of God to work through him and into your lives, he'll lead you. I couldn't lead you. And I think when you honor each other well, well says I do each other in honoring.

28:04So I think from Dylan's side is really honored as in a sense like these are your new leaders go for it. And we've also taken that and made it up. The very most important thing over the Trans-Sesian period is to be honest. And that's why the Trans-Sesian phase is so important to enhance that hand over needs to be good. And make it clear Dylan's greatest desires to see the church explode under you. Absolutely. Right. So explode with church growth. You know Dylan's putting this. Dylan wants to see Tony up for success. Yeah, absolutely. Isn't that so contrary to when this leadership change in the world, this always as comparison, there's always a thing, well, I'm an a sabotage it before I leave. And now I'm also trying to communicate that we would never be where we are now if it wasn't for the faithfulness of Dylan and Hacker's plowing into the background for the last five years. Yes, really. So I want to ask you, Tony, as the new leader coming in, what's going to make it hard for you and what's going to make it easier for you in terms of how people receive you?

29:05I think the comparison thing might make it hard. So that would be hard. To make it easy is just I think to give us grace and time, time to settle in, time to find hearts. Practically what does that look like? Because I'm even thinking like they are. I don't know how many people they are on the conundition currently. Like 50, 60, 50. It's going to take time to work your way through 50 people. And there can be a sense of everyone wants to meet with the new leader. Again, I would say give us some time, patience, this patience with trying to find the Lord for every single person. You know, you don't know someone overnight. So you have to journey with them and that might take some time, not just journey with one person, but journey with a few people. And the eligible team. And the eligible team. Yeah. But it's important that people communicate with you. I mean, out of 50 people, there's going to be one or two who didn't get to meet with you.

30:05We've been waiting, but nothing's happened. And they said, back then, but everyone else, people need to communicate. So you can't do anything if you don't know about it. Exactly. That's so true. That's true. I've heard of instances, oh, let's post it a little bit, Sonoria, people have built deeply with with Haikann Dillon. And Haikann Dillon move on and there's a sense of, you know, friends, but they need to come in now under the covering and the leadership of the new leader. It's not going to be helpful if they keep furning Dillon and Haikann. It's a few and though there's that history of relationship. Can you speak a little bit into that in terms of because, yeah, I've even in my time in Joshgine, I've transitioned from one congregation to another and sometimes you can have this expectation of the friendships are going to look the same, but they don't because we have to give ourselves to the new congregation. Yeah, I suppose the friendships will look a bit different, I think, for everyone. What I just, as far as ministry is concerned, the kind of the transition thing with regards

31:10to what does it look like for Tony to start taking over responsibility for people that have led for a long time. So one example of that is we had a meeting with a couple recently and I kind of said, well, wasn't Tony come into that meeting? He didn't have any context really of the meeting, but just sit in it, give your input into it. And so when we leave, whenever we do leave, you've got context and you actually have a voice not in that conversation, I suppose that's been part of the transition, is excluding him in all of the details of all of the things that are happening in the life of the church. It's not like, well, I'm going to finish this up and you just wait there and then when you come in, I'll have sorted this. It's like, no, let's do it together now. So that when it does transition, you're fully aware of everything that is happening in the life of the church. You have noticed that you defer very well, although you still leading the congregation, Tony's coming to take over. I've noticed in situations you defer to Tony, well, a check with Tony. Well, I want the congregation to start seeing Tony as the leader.

32:10So I don't want to be the leader hanging on by his finger and then he'll be there until the very end, until the very last meeting. Then I go, okay, now I hand over leadership to Tony with some weird ceremony. It's like, no, they really will have some... Don't we give you a ceremony, don't you? Don't you forget? They're going to see him as the leader when we leave already. He will be kind of going, hey, we're saying goodbye to Alan Hacker who served as church, but they will see him as the leader. That's my goal. And everything that I do at the moment, and so pointing new leaders or com leaders, Tony needs to make those decisions because he's going to be the leader. Is it a sense of co-leading at the moment? Or I think it's more a sense of handing over. I think it's more handing over. Where I can, I'm taking a step back as much as I possibly can. I don't want to be... All support of the role. I'm interfering in anything. I don't want to say I have to give my two cents because I'm still leading. It's like, no, I've given my thoughts. You guys can... You guys take it forward now. So let's get to some of the practical things because we talk about a transition and one of the questions people want to know is when...

33:12We'll use you guys. When's Tony coming? When's Dylan leaving? But there's a whole bunch of practical things and I think importantly is where people can pray into a situation. What are your practical situations getting to the... It feels like... So many shifts. Yeah, it feels like, first of all, I mean, our house situation. So we've had to find a house, which we have found a house now, which we will be moving at the end of the month. But in that, we've got like... Now we realize we have three or four weeks to get our place rented out. So that's a whole other thing. Our kids need to find schooling on that side, which we have applied and there's something said, sorry, all full. So now it's like, it's faith for that. Joe's work situation. She has gone for an interview, but we need to pray that it's successful. So we haven't heard back anything yet. So there's... And in the meanwhile, there's lots of traveling happening from this side.

34:12Yeah, a lot of traveling to the... And it's a business season with conferences and work and everything like that. So there's a lot happening in one month. That's a bit... That's a way you can draw the new congregation in because praying for you... I remember 11 o'clock on one Friday, we were all praying for Joe's interview and then praying for the house situation because it was quite funny when you got the house, the amount of excitement that we had. It was awesome. Why are we getting so excited about that? You get in that house, but I think it's a whole part of the process. So people need to can buy in by just supporting you along the way. Yeah, and we appreciate that so much. It's great. But it's the same for Dylan and I, yeah. What you always do is like challenge. Yeah, we're moving houses around. We're getting our house ready. So there's a few things we need to do just to get it ready to rent and then we're going to look for a flat here. So we're moving to our house. You go in upper class from Usenberg in that area. So you're not going to have the same housing prices. I mean, it's tricky here. I mean, our house, we love our house. Like for us, our houses are dream house. So we never wanted to move from it to be honest. It was just like, hey, the Lord has given us this amazing house.

35:13We love Musenberg, we love the beach, we love the sea and everything. You can come retire with us one day. Yeah. But we want to be obedient. And so, yeah, we'll be looking for something. And yeah, so if you can pray for a miracle in City Ball, because rentals in City Ball and that's meant so. I've thought they were going to be in Usenberg. I don't even know the prices on that side. Yeah. So we'll pretty commute for a little bit, but then we will. And in the year, we're starting looking for a house to live in. And of course, your girls, your girls, there isn't a schooling situation with you like Tony. Yeah, they're finished school. Yeah. So what part of the particularly difficult little challenge in your situation is that because there are so many moving parts, there isn't a clear timeline in terms of like your thing needs to fall into place for Dylan's things or into that. So that's the thing. That's the thing. We can't expect everything to line up exactly on the same day. And so I've even had to process the family. It's going to be messy for the next couple of months and be okay with the mess for the next couple of months. We're going to have one thing fall into place and maybe a month later for another thing

36:14fall into place. Because God season to the future we don't. And we just, we go forward by faith. So how can the, how can communications members support you guys? But anyone else has been, how can they support you in a messy time? What are the challenges that you need as help with? If you have a house that you'd like to give to us, we would make it. We too. I'm playing the lottery on Saturday night. So maybe. Yeah, no, everything's so expensive. But pray, I think just pray the messages of like we're thinking, we're thinking about you guys over this next season. And we've had that. It's been absolutely amazing. Practical support. Is there any practical support that people can give? Moving boxes. You know what? We have decided to make use of attractors, Tom, around. You've learned to mention it. It's not just down the road. So I think that's the difference. It's an hour. I think we'll make use of a track.

37:16Then there's other factor is you guys are going to double-edit ship meetings. No. You're meeting with two sets of communications. You. Yeah, so I think that as part of the transition, I've started meeting with city ball eldership team and with the decon team, which has been great. And I suppose for us, that's kind of getting to know the people slowly but surely. So yeah, an intern is also been joining our meetings as well. But try to balance it well. Otherwise, we've been exhausted as meetings and two million meetings. And it's a lot going on, it's turning a thing in the life of the church. There's a conference coming up, so we're focusing on that. I'm trying to get your phone there. Yeah, so. It's a good space to help with the transition. You know, it might be extra meetings, but it's not going to be for long and then you'll be running strong again. Yeah, yeah. And again, it might be messy for a few months until everything settles. I want to come back to the question that Dylan didn't have an opportunity to answer, because I know that's often a hard thing for people to navigate around the friendships.

38:17Because there is a sense of you just not going to have the time and capacity and necessarily to invest in some of the people that you've worked with for a long time. How can you prepare people for that? How do people prepare their own hearts for that? Yeah, I think that is a tricky one. So we have really good friends in Fischuk. I can see you even see Nair Katen in talking to Hike in the waiting room outside. And we were really good friends of them in City Ball. And so our friendship has shifted with them, but I know that if I pick up the phone and chat to you, if I need something, I can chat to you in or to Kate and then our daughters love them as well. So they've built a really strongly with our family. I think, you know, some friendships you just know will last and they'll stand a test of time. Even if it looks different in any of the events. Yeah, it will look different. We've put time into it, obviously, but I mean, we've got friends from 20 years ago, my oldest friend, we've met recently for coffee in Hartbeer. He leads a church in Rondabosh. When we get together, it's just like we've never been apart.

39:18And so I think that's part of it. If we've built a French as well, which I think we have, I think we'll pick it up and it will be heart sore for a minute for a bit. And I think it's silly to think that we're just going to move location, move churches and go, oh, well, guys, we're still going to be, it's going to be the same. It does change. So don't change it. So the depth of the relationship doesn't, if you've planted well in that relationship. Yeah. So I think that leads into just a final question, Tony, maybe for you. What can a church learn about faith and trust letting go, receiving change when the leader changes? Because things do change. Something's done the same or something's do change. That's right. Well, yes, we have to approach this by faith. The church doesn't belong to a person, belongs to God. And we are the bride of Christ. And so with whatever changes comes, we take it by faith, knowing and trusting that the Lord is the one who boils and that the Lord is the one who sets leaders in place where

40:22it needs to be. I think that's, that would be my advice to any saint up there. Beautiful. Someone's listening in maybe even one of your members. And it's a challenge for them and they're feeling they're higher. They're hearts are sore. It's quite a big mood. Won't you pray for them, that person who might be in another congregation as well, whether they're having to process this change? Sure. Yeah, Lord, thank you for your bride. I thank you that we can be part of this incredible thing called the church. And so I've got to, I want to pray for anyone who is struggling with this change, with this transition, with this process, God that you would be with them, that you would comfort them for the God who has spread, that you would come and be the comforter. But Lord, I pray that they would see the bigger picture as well, that by this happening by churches being planted, by churches, by new churches being planted, that your word is going out and your gospel is being spread. And so God, as much as we love one another, we're also in this for the bigger picture of

41:23seeing your kingdom come for the God. And so, yeah, if anyone's hurting God, I'll comfort them, be with them in any way that they need for the God. And I pray that as Fishuk moves forward, as it grows, as it expands, as Tony and Joly did forward, that they would give their hearts to them as a leadership couple for the God, and that they would form new friendships and deep friendships with those around them and in their community for the God. And that people would see those friendships and know that they are your disciples for the God. And Jesus, no, man. That's it then for this edition of the Dying to Live Podcast. Tune in again every week at www.joshjen.co.z, forward slash Dying to Live. We're also on Apple Podcasts Google Play, Tune in Radio, Spotify, I Heart Radio, and many other podcast sites. So wherever you're listening to this podcast, please subscribe, leave comments and click on the like button. Until next time then, from the team, it's goodbye and God bless.