Lance Baker & Mat Dragonstone | Reiki, Talismans, & The Pleiades Pendulum Set

0:00Alright people, this is a bit of an outside the box episode that ends with a pretty detailed breakdown of a ritual contact experience slash experiments that I had and I think it took a while in this interview to bring up the fact that I plan to go over the experience in the wrap up. So I'm letting you know now, so stick with it to the end or if you just have an interest in hearing how these things went, jump to the wrap up because it's kind of a wild one and it'll all become clear when I'm talking about pretty soon, but alright, enjoy. The highest side, jack show, record company. Well, well, well, I'm just a man whose intentions are good. From the sunshine state, I'm Greg Carlwood. And it is interesting that no matter what you might think about its usefulness, the art and science of petitioning, the spirit, stars, subconscious, or greater cosmos for insights or answers to unanswered questions, goes back about as far as we do. What even brought man to think you could throw chicken bones, read coffee grounds, spread

1:00cards, or observe smoke signals and make contact or extract information in any sort of reliable way? For almost all cultures outside of our own, science and systems are everywhere, for animals making an uncanny appearance to lights in the sky that seem to be speaking to us, it was known that we are embedded in a conscious cosmos and only by engineering are removal from the living world and exchange for a smoke-filled, concrete, covered, uninspired city-scape, could we be made to forget something that seemed ubiquitous to everyone else? We are relearning, and here to teach us our today's guest Lance Baker and Matt Dragonstone. Lance is a hypnotherapist, raky healer, and author of two books, questioning skills for IMR hypnosis in the Swan Protocol, as well as the seven primary chakras. He's also the host of the Akasha Talks podcast in an expert on the use of pendulums as Devonatory Devices, with the full scope of his work and services being found at branches of healing.com.au. And our other guest is astrological magician, tarot reader, and talented talismanic jeweler,

2:04Matt Dragonstone of Dragonstoneastrology.com, who also has a PhD in post-structuralism and ancient Greek philosophy on top of all the rest. With their powers combined, they have produced a potent talismatic pleiadian pendulum set, designed to facilitate devination, spiritual communication. Included in the set is a solid sterling silver seven-sided pendulum with the name of each of the stars of the pleiades, in relief per side, and an organized pendulum map. Both crafted at the elected time relevant to connecting to the seven sisters, as well as consecrated and suffumigated as per a grip as instructions from the book of occult philosophy. We'll get into why we're talking about this particular magical tool, but suffice to say it's supposed to be a powerful one. Why waste any more time? Here they are, the esoterically inclined educators talented talismatic craftsmen and the pleiadian pendulum pals, Lance and Matt, Matt and Lance. Welcome to THC. How you doing, mate? Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us.

3:05Yes, thank you guys. So this one comes with quite a story, but most listeners, I'm sure no of the passing of THC's most frequent guest and my good friend Gordon White, a rune soup earlier this year. A good friend of all three of us, actually. And after he passed, Lance was kind enough to message me some photos from their family memorial, talked to me a bit about it, which I appreciated. And I expressed my desire to see Gordon's death as an opportunity for after death contact, as if I can't contact a magically inclined friend known as the dark prince of chaos magic, or as I would say the Tasmanian devil himself. Well, I guess I am truly spiritually deaf and there's no hope. But Lance was kind enough to actually send me the very pleiadian talismanic pendulum set that I described in the intro there. And it was made in partnership with Matt. And I really am just waiting for the right time to consecrate it and try my hand at contacting

4:07the dead. And we'll get into that. Obviously you gave me the times too. You know, I always say with magical guests, it's way more complicated than people think because people who want to dismiss magic say, well, everyone would do it if it works. Not really. Does everyone exercise knowing that, you know, we all want to look ripped if it didn't take a lot of effort? So magic is similar where the timing is really so key. And you did that for me. You just gave me the nice printout. So I just have to find the right day to consecrate it. And then the tool is tunes to me and I can use it better. But just to get it, get us started here, I wanted to ask both of you guys about what really broke materialism for you. If you even happen to ever be in that camp or not, I kind of think we all are because it's just kind of the, what looks obvious before you dig deeper. But Lance, I know a little bit more about your story. Maybe you can start by telling people about your headaches and how you fixed a problem

5:09that modern Western medicine could not. Yeah, okay. I had a migraine for nearly a decade. It was a couple of months show I have a decade. And that's like 24-7. And there was not a seconds reprived. It was just on insane. It changes volume. It was at best or free. Mostly it stuck about a five. I come up with like at least a dozen new versions of what 10 was. Which that's confronting when you're like, you got to work out where you're on a paint scale. And then you have this day that you're like, well, my 10's now five. And I've got a new version of 10. And that happened because of modern medicine. The guy who was labeled as the best neurosurgeon in the Southern Hemisphere, he did surgery on me. And I woke up from that surgery with this migraine.

6:09And why it really stuck with that knowing how long it was was I had the surgery the day after my birthday. So every year on my birthday I was like, well, this has been my year. This has been two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. And on my ninth one, I was at my limit. Like that five years in. I just gave up on thinking I could find an answer because everything I tried didn't pause it even for a second. So it was just like, this is my lot in life. Well, on the ninth year, I was like, the ninth year I turned 33. And I'd been listing the heaps of Kevin Smith's podcasts. And he was talking in this because it was doing a renovation thing. And while I was listening, he was talking about 33 being Jesus ye and like miracles can happen. I'm like, well, this is going to be my year. I'm going to find my miracle.

7:10I'm going to break this. And so I sent myself a thing that I'll try everything again and I'm in a house stupid it was. I'm crazy. It wasn't matter how weird it was. If it come across my path, I would do it. And right here come across my path. And I'd been told about it, told me to do it by this guy. He's girlfriend did it. But he's girlfriend was weeded out by some experience she'd had. So she didn't do it anymore. But they recognize you do it. And then I bumped into this old woman and she said she did it. So I had a session. It was interesting like I was laying there. And I was really, really thinking it was a scam. Like this woman's not touching me. I love nothing I'm like with with Matt here. I was loving and this week she's sitting in the corner. I should plan for fucking Tarot. That's the biggest scam ever. I imagine and pull a 90 bucks and my wallet setting it on fire. That's a joke. And because of having this panel, Thomas hyper aware of every sensation in my head.

8:16And I know it was maybe 15, 20 minutes in. I could feel this stuff coming out of the side of my head at the spot where there's a hole in my head from where they drilled in to do this operation. And that just had me at that moment. Fuck. Like this witch is legit. This is not a joke. Not sure what to think about this now. I was just taking a thing off a list to say, yep, that's another thing that doesn't work. And that was the intention pretty much I had broken in. Like I didn't have any belief in it when I did it. I was just desperate to try anything. And so I went a bunch of times and it was helping. It didn't make it go away. It really helped. It's a weird stuff happened, which like the weird stuff kind of broke my materialist stuff. But then I went and did a class myself because I found out you could do it on yourself. You could do it on yourself.

9:18So I went along and I thought being able to do it myself might help in between sessions with this lady to build the momentum up of what can happen. Raky's passed on by this achievement. A raky master will connect you with the raky energy. I said that you got this ability to do it for life. And the moment that happened and there's most basic raky practices in an energy ball where you just pull energy in between your hands. And the moment I did that and could feel this energy life just changed. Like I was like, this is the other like. And I'd chased Christianity routes before and all my spiritual experiences had been essentially secondhand information. Somebody else had this miraculous thing happen. Somebody else could feel an energy. Somebody else could speak and tell you somebody else could do these different amazing spiritual things. But I didn't have any connection with it. And I just had to have more faith for that.

10:20And incidentally I'd gone to a church every week for three months doing a spiritual healing thing where they laid their hands on me and prayed on me like that with Jesus. And it didn't do anything. And now here I am. I can feel this thing in my hands. I'm like, this is it. This world is nothing. This is this is huge. And then just a week and a half of playing with that, that my grand gone. I remember I was like, where I was living at the time I'd built like a man cave out the back. I had this old shed. I'd like done it up and build in a proper room. And that's what I was listening to the podcast that came in the idea as well as renovating. When I made the dedication on my birthday that this was going to be it, I was having a drink standing like in that room. And then when I noticed the my grand was gone, I was going to work and I was standing in the threshold of the doorway of that room about a closed door. And I'm forgetting something. I'm like, I've got my keys, I've got my wallet, I've got my phone.

11:23I don't have the migraine. I don't have the fucking migraine. Yeah, I'm shutting this down. I'm going to work. This is great. I didn't know how long that would be. But I was stoked that it was just was going in that moment. And it stayed away. It stayed away for nine years and a few years ago, I popped back. For a brief little period to highlight something to me. And as soon as I noticed that thing, disappear to get. Wow. I mean, that is incredible. I read about the story. It was a cyst that was there. I mean, just insane. You know, a lot of people when I hear the stories that they have like once you've for some people, once you've invoked the surgery situation, you really the subtle energy stuff doesn't seem so subtle. But you know, that's the term people use. It doesn't work anymore. Like once you've done chemo, you can't go do the alternative route because you've already

12:25damaged yourself to such a degree. So just while that seems like you're very lucky and it's just crazy. I told you before we started, I had a raky experience once because I had a guest who got me motivated. I lean Macusik, who does bio field tuning with tuning forks. Even from her network also was a raky healer in San Diego. So I did a session and I just, yeah, I also kind of felt like what is happening here? Should I have just got a massage because at least then I could feel something because this person's just walking around me and then they're like, yep, you're all tuned up. And I was like, well, I don't feel any different, but I felt fine before. And maybe it is like going to a doctor when you're fine and they tell you you're fine and you leave feeling fine. I guess maybe you need to have a reason to do raky, but what do you think about that idea? Like, is it something you think people should get just tune up for like for their shock or a system or whatever? What do you make of it that a person like me just didn't feel anything?

13:28Quite often people might feel something the first time. Some people feel hate to stuff, some people don't feel anything. People's senses completely different with everybody. Like some people will feel hot or cold sensations, sometimes both at once, like I've had people feel freezing cold on their left side and burning hot on their right side at once or everything's hot except for one bit that's freezing cold or tingling sensations like kind of like pins and needles, but without that pain aspect to it. Magnetic pressure is huge. That one gets weird when you feel like something's pushing against you, but nothing's touching you. Kind of like when you're trying to push two repelling magnets together. I used to be, we'll have equilibrium imbalances where they feel like they're floating or like they're sinking through the table, the table spinning around. The most common one is probably trance like stuff like a lot of people will go into a

14:33light trance or a deep trance. And with that, you're entering in like dream like state. And so that can be the see here taste, feel smell, things that are not happening. More of the not when I get a session, it knocks me out. And when I teach people Ricky too, they have to come back to give me a session so I can give them some feedback with that like I might as open half the time so that I can give them feedback and I'm still getting knocked out with it. But the weird bit for me is like if I lay on my back and sleep, I snore. That's like a guaranteed. And I'll be laying there getting rake and I'll be like, why am I snoring? I'm not asleep. But I'm sure I know that. Well if you're awake, stop snoring. I don't know, I can't stop snoring. Usually that's the point where I'm just going. I mean, I'll go back. That's crazy. You also told me you broke up to kidney stones with Raykey and it's like, where were

15:35you a month ago? But Matt, let's bring in here. So what about you? I read on your about page. You've been studying magic since the 90s, you know, 30 plus years. And you say that you often take what works and discard what doesn't. You're only concerned with results and hold no tradition, dear, for its own sake. That is something that resonates with me. I think Gordon being a chaos magician, that's what it's all about. So clearly you've seen some things that have results because you wouldn't be so dedicated to this space. But what would you say are the things that work or some of the major pieces you rely on to couple together your own model, not just of astrology, but of everything. What broke the doors off? Well, I think it comes down to world view, Greg. And look, you know, the doors were kind of already off for as far back as I can remember. So I grew up in Newcastle, same place as Gordon. I didn't know him when I was living there. I only met him later in life. But I grew up opposite one of the biggest symmetries in the country.

16:39And so, you know, being close to, I guess, the veil between life and death almost literally, I sort of grew up thinking that this was all kind of normal. So that, you know, just relying on materialism as a world view, that seemed very foreign to me. And you know, the process of growing up and then just being indoctrinated and inculturated into a world view that's fundamentally atheistic materialist, it eventually kind of knocked the enchantment out of me. But underneath that, the whole time was this subcurrent of, I can't stop thinking about magic, divination, astrology. I had no words for it back then, but I think probably the first memory I have of encountering tarot, for instance, was in a library not very far from my house where I found just, you know, on the shelf, it's just an introductory book on tarot when I was transfixed. I borrowed it. I ran home and hid in the laundry basket to read it because my parents weren't at all supportive of a young kid who's displaying a lot of spiritual openness.

17:44So I was studying magic in secret. I was studying tarot in secret. I eventually started practicing it in secret when I was a student, when I was an undergraduate. And I never really stopped, but I had this overlay of atheistic materialist indoctrination which said, this isn't worth your time, you know, it may or may not be true, it doesn't matter, but it holds no value. You can't really make a living out of it a respectable living. So I thought, well, what can I do to kind of be respectable in the eyes of others? And the closest thing I could think of was go and study philosophy, be an academic. So I've forced myself through four years of undergraduate philosophy and then a PhD in philosophy. And right at the end of it, I kind of knew that I couldn't really play pretend and exist in academia. So I decided, well, you know, if I can't really sort of be an academic, I might as well just get a corporate job and continue seeing clients on the side and into a call center I went.

18:45There's a famous joke about people who study philosophy and it's what's the first thing that a philosophy grad says when they graduate and the answer is do you want fries with that? So it's either McDonald's or a call center. And I ended up working in insurance of all things and it was so depressing that, you know, while the doors were always open, I pretended that they were closed and eventually I just couldn't couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. So I quit and that secret sort of side gig or part time job became the full time identity. And just like Lance, it was kind of close to 33rd birthday. So there's a bit of crossover there. And I'm 43 now. I've been doing this for about 10 years openly as an openly practicing astrologer and astrological magician and Tara Reader, etc. And I think that one thing the kind of unites it is world view, basically. The most important thing is world view. And the experience of indoctrination was the experience of being told.

19:45The physical world is all there is, the physical world is all there is. And science is the source of truth and religion is a nice pastime. And you know, some people make a career out of it in terms of the accepted modes of spiritual expression like, you know, in the West Christianity and insert religion here depending on where you are in the world. But, you know, I mean, there's no real value in that in terms of what can be counted and monetized and relied upon. So to speak in concrete terms. But my world view was never that. It was always just a mask that I was putting on to appease others. And then I just got too old mate. I was like, I'm too old to pretend. There's too much evidence to the contrary in terms of my own experience, which never stopped being spiritually open. I was always, you know, seeing things that other people couldn't. And the only difference between the childhood me and the me that I am now is that intermediate period of pretending that I couldn't, you know, engage spiritually with the world around

20:46me. Now I don't give a shit. I'm just pretty, I am who I am. Yeah. I like that. I mean, I've only had one strange experience, saw a 40-in-thane when I was young. But it is funny how you can put that away for 15 years and be like and just repeat to yourself, well, nothing strange ever happens to me. I hear these stories on queer normal shows or I read UFO accounts. Nothing strange ever happens to me. And then, you know, you actually think about it. It's like actually that one thing you saw should have broken the doors off of it. What, why did you just leave that back? Or you know, I had an experience where I was in the car probably five years old and I got this crazy message, put your seatbelt on because, you know, I didn't wear my seatbelt when I was young. My parents picked their battles. I know that's weird, but it was the late 80s, I guess. But I'd actually listened to the voice in my head. I wouldn't listen to my parents put this voice. I was like, that is very bizarre. Put my seatbelt on, got in a car accident, got t-bone right after that.

21:47I was fine. But like, even that, I filed it away. And it's like, no, that was a clue. That was a clue to what is really going on out there. So it is funny how even fairly dramatic things, one or two things, you can put them away for a couple of decades. And then hopefully you reconnect with that stuff and say those were the clues for myself that there is something more out there. But as for the set itself, so why Pleiadian? I mean, I know now because I've read up on this, but it was one of my first questions. We know the Pleiades are the cluster of stars. We know as the Seven Sisters with one not really being visible in the night sky. I mean, obviously there's the Greek myth of it, but I think it shows up in like a lot of cultures and they all kind of have that motif of like in the story that they tell of the Seven Sisters. One isn't really seen. But I guess talk to us about the history of the Pleiades, why it's important to you,

22:48and why you think it's a great anchor for a talismanic set like this? Yeah, well, I mean, a lot of talismanic magic that's practiced in the West is kind of influenced by two pretty big books or grim ones. The first one is Beckham's to mind is three books of a cult philosophy. Most people are familiar with that. The second is a treatise on astrological magic called the Picatrix. And that's kind of less known, but quite good. I quite enjoy it and I use it quite often. But in both of those grim ones, the Pleiades are there and they have very similar associations and very similar kind of sets of benefits, I suppose, that come from working directly with them. The only reason why the Pleiades are in those books of astrological magic is because they're practically ubiquitous. Every cultron on the planet has a myth about the Pleiades and they're all very, very similar. So we take the Greek version, which is kind of what we get in the West and then we can compare that to, for example, the Australian Aboriginal or Indigenous peoples understanding

23:54of the Pleiades and their mythologies and their stories about it. Very, very similar seven sisters. It's always seven and they're hunter, they're chased, basically. That's the bones of the mythology. And so I guess what interested me in the Pleiades and this is definitely following off what Gordon wrote about in Starships in particular is that why is this so ubiquitous? Why is this so ubiquitous? And why, for example, now when we can only observe six of these seven stars with the naked eye does every culture have seven sisters or it's always the number seven that features in their mythologies. And I did a little bit of digging and the only time that you could have sat and looked up at the sky and observed all seven Pleiades, there's actually more of them, but seven is the most commonly recognized one. Is a hundred thousand years ago, right? One hundred thousand years ago on Earth, you could have looked up in the sky and seen seven of these stars and the mythologies that persist, we have to assume rightly or wrongly that

24:59the cultures that they came from didn't have the technological advancement that we have at the moment to be able to use telescopes or what have you to observe all seven. And you have to sort of come to the conclusion that this mythology is older than civilization and older than what we've been told most definitely about how long people have been on Earth, so to speak. So there's that sense of mystery about the stars. It interested me for the longest time and because I practice astrological magic, the methodology of that is you have to find, as you mentioned, the right time, the right place to get the right astrological conditions to make contact with the energy represented by the celestial bodies. And I was looking for ages, years for the right moment. And it just so happened that one popped up at about the same time that I started working with Lance and naturally Gordon brought us together and we met through Runesoup and I was just chatting with him about, you know, what's up?

26:01What have I got on, so to speak? And it came up, I'm like, look, I've got a really good time coming up at the Pleiades and I'm looking forward to working with them and then one thing led to another. And I think the tenure, the history, the pedigree of this particular star cluster, more so than what it signified, I was willing to kind of accept whatever the significations of the stars were or the benefits of working with them. That's what hooked me the most. I'm like, I want to talk to these sisters. I want to, you know, interact with these spiritual energies and just see what happens next. There's not a lot of rationale really and that's something that I'm very happy to have learned after leaving the academy to just trust the gut. The gut said work with them, work with them, pursue them, hunt them, like, you know, like the myths basically all say. And eventually I was able to kind of coax them into, you know, the objects that form the set and, you know, here we are. Yeah.

27:01I like it. And so Lance, you're kind of more the pendulum guy and this is a pendulum set. So Matt creates it and such impressive stuff on your website, Matt, just all the various things you make, the talismans you make. I mean, you got them in categories for different use cases and it just seems wild. I once bought a talismanic ring of mercury because my job was material. This is kind of, Gordon didn't advise me on this, but I had a different magical guest that thought it would, it would work for me. It actually burned my finger. I, I felt it hurting and then I took it off and like, my whole finger was like mildly burnt all the way around all red. And so I stopped wearing it, obviously. I thought, mate, I don't know, maybe mercury doesn't like me or it wasn't a good fit or my astrologies incompatible. I don't know, but it did feel powerful. It felt like, you know, maybe there is something to it, but it was also supposedly

28:03consecrated at the right time instead of it looked cool. But, you know, maybe I'll try that again at some point, that sort of thing. But I guess I should just ask if you have advice for choosing the right talisman. I mean, not just for like, oh, I want wealth or I want love. Like, do you consult people's charts to see like what's actually beneficial for them or what would be a good fit? Yes, I do. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the general rule of thumb for people that are maybe new to interacting with talismans is let's have a look at your birth chart, your astrological chart. Let's see where all the planets are in that chart. And you know, it's not just the sun. So for people that are sort of completely new to astrology, most people know their sun sign. They say things like armatura, samuleo, or amajemini, or whatever it is. What they're saying is that the sun as a quote unquote planet was in that sign at the time that I was born. But what people are less aware of is that all the other planets in the sky are somewhere

29:03in the 360 degrees of diacol wheel. And some of those planets have a really good time. Take mercury, for instance. Mercury loves being in jemenai, loves being in Virgo. Because of the two signs that mercury do really well. If you rock up and get in touch and say, hey, Matt, I'm interested in buying a talisman. Can you have a look at my chart? And I look at it and I see that mercury is in jemenai or mercury is in Virgo or mercury is otherwise really strong in your chart. I'd recommend mercury. I'd say, yeah, go with mercury. It's already a winner. It's already doing its job really well. Let's just add a bit of oomph to that. And you'll get effects that are noticeable. And I'm assuming yours is your mercury must be pretty damn good, not only because your podcast is awesome, but because you had that kind of reaction to the ring, right? It started to burn. It started to release fizzle and pop. And if people want observable effects, right? Go with what's already strong in your chart. The best way to find that out is if you're already an astrologer, look at your chart,

30:05which planets are dignified, which planets have already a lot of power behind them and are able to do their job very well, hit that button a little bit more and you'll get more of that good stuff. Is it too much of a good thing? Well, sometimes it is. And the ring starts to burn and maybe you don't want to kind of get too close to it. But as a starting point, that's the way to go. And so, yeah, I look at people's charts and I go, what do you want, first of all? What are you getting in touch for it? You after love, you after money, you after with mercury communication, so to speak? Is it going to work for you? Because just like with Gemini and Virgo, mercury is happy being there. Mercury is not too happy being in Sagittarius, not too happy being in Pisces. It doesn't mean that it's hard up against it from the start. It's just that a talisman of mercury might not necessarily work as well for people with planetary placements like that. And so having a consultation first, I do them for free. If you're interested in buying a talisman, I'll just have a squeeze that won't take

31:06very long. That's usually a good place to start. Just have a look and go into it from there. See what works and do more of it. Yeah. It's the making these at the elected time and cater to the individual that I think is really interesting because it's like such a lost art form. I mean, this used to be, I guess, a much bigger thing or the way it was done. Now people just wear jewelry for no reason, spend $1,000 on this thing because it looks nice. It's like if you're going to spend money on precious gems and that kind of thing, I mean, at least add this element to it. Isn't it more fun at least? And it also might bring crazy things to your life. And just because we were talking about it, my mercury, not that it's all about me, is in 18 degrees Aries, I am an Aries and it's in my ninth house. So I don't know if that explains why my finger got burned, but you're nodding. Yeah. No, it's good.

32:06I mean, Aries is good. I mean, first prize Gemini Virgo, but Aries is pretty good. And that's a dangerous thing to say to an Aries, by the way. That's why I have a pretty good podcast and not a great one. No, you've got a great one. I'm not the Joe Rogan. No, but in terms of that placement, you're doing really well. So ninth house, it's all about spirituality, philosophy, the bigger picture, show me the bigger picture. Aries is brave, right? And to take on topics like, for example, conspiracy and some of the conversations that you've had with people, I think that the best ones that I've heard in terms, because I'm a big fan, by the way, some of the best conversations I've heard with you are where you're fearless. I'm on Hillman as a great example. That episode rocked. It was so good. And it was about religion and you were being so brave having him on. And I just love that episode so much. That's an example of how works well for you. Yeah. Yeah, I need to find it's hard to find people that are that extreme.

33:07But when I do, I have my, yeah, let's try that. But Lance, let's talk about pendulums and didactolomancy, didactolomancy. I only read the word. I haven't tried to say it very often, but this is the art of, I guess, noticing twitches or interpreting twitches as signs, right? Yeah, I got into pendulums because through hypnotherapy routes, like one of the main things I work with is video motor response, I am a, which is unconscious twitches, which usually I'm getting through people's fingers, but sometimes it's elsewhere in their body. And some people, their twitches are really small. And I've got to get my face really close to their hand, like see it or I'm going to light it up with like bookshelf behind them with tattoos on their arm or something like that to be able to notice some other people's their huge and then they're really big and clear. For me, my unconscious is pretty clear.

34:08They, they, big ones. Can my unconscious show us a yes? Come on. Show us a yes, mate. Here we go. I don't know. So that's involuntary. And that's involuntary. And that's involuntary. I'm not moving that, no, my unconscious is moving that to talk along. And that's clear and easy to see, but some people they're so small they're not where a pendulum will just amplify that. So if there's a tiny little movement, it can get bigger. And so if I'm not seeing movements of somebody, I can put a pendulum in their hand and ask their unconscious to show us a yes. And it should start moving. Here we go. Sometimes it's round and round like this is doing other times we'll be back and forward or left and right depending on the person. And show us a no. And so it's just working off of engineering like with gears, they make a thing move better

35:09because you, you're making the small thing become a big thing through that different movement. And so the tiny little movements from that chain and a weight show up bigger down the bottom. And then you can interact with something else to be able to get somewhere. And so that has been used traditionally in divination sources, a lot of like old grammars and stuff. I have a lot of their communication with spirits in pendulum use. And they used to use it with something like the pendulum board you've got there where they would have the characters of their alphabet around a bowl and then they'd have wine, water or something in that bowl as well quite often to grab that spirit or otherwise sometimes they'd have it empty. But the pendulum would swing towards the letters to to spell something out. So you could get more than just a yes, no sort of interaction. And so for years I was working with hypnosis with just direct suggestion and then I found

36:13a bit of your motor response when I first got that it was just to get a yes, just up to which for a yes. And then I mentored under a guy called Bob Burns, who invented this thing called the Swan, which I saw that like a swan. For people listening, you do kind of like the limp rusted thing. You make your hand look like a swan and that, you know, that's the configuration that you put your hand in and then you know, you get the subtle movements of the fingers for yosses and nose or I don't know and it goes on from there. You can watch this video on self swanning and then there's a accompanying book, but that's a good way to get started if you're just curious if you can communicate with your own subconscious. Yeah. And so I used it for unconscious communication and Bob introduced me to the world of how spirits can come through with with trance and stuff like that. Transmedium shit kind of stuff happens as well with this. And so you can connect to the ghosts and everything else like that, all the spooky,

37:19roomy stuff. And so from there experiment with like directly trying to get that. And so I've done a lot of just weird experimental stuff, whether I'm talking with a person's unconscious. I've talked with the spirit, I've done it with animistic sort of things where talk to a river or a lake or a mountain or a trees and have two way communication. I felt like I've lost the plot a few times with that because that sounds pretty crazy. But then things that like have come up in that conversation, things I couldn't have known. And then real life stuff happens with that where there's direct feedback like I had a conversation with an ancestor that passed like many, many, many years before I was even born. And he told me to connect with a certain group of people. I said, I don't know, like you connect me with them. I'm knocking on my door at 9 o'clock the next morning. What? Yeah.

38:20I'm like, well, what mind can I create that? That was not in my head of this thing. And these people don't do knock. It was just spot on this lost count of demand examples of stuff like that from interactions with the land or interactions with an ancestor or some other kind of spirit. The feedback of what I got is for real. And easy with me to do that embodied. I'll still use a pendulum sometimes. Most time I'll just use my hand. The average person, it takes a lot more to get that out of the hand if they're just doing it on their own. So I teach people how to use pendulum so they can open that gateway and pretty much anybody can use a pendulum pretty easy. Wild. So in the book, you do have some stuff about the history. It seems like one of the earliest uses of didactylomancy is the Oracle of Zeus at Dodana.

39:24This was, I guess, one of the earliest ones where seekers believed Zeus directly would influence a pendulum's movement around letters engraved in the rim of a ritual basin. The oldest artifact that I think people have found is the alphabet plate from 371 CE. And it's just so crazy how far back this stuff goes. And for people who are more scientifically inclined, I thought these two situations were interesting. But in April of 1825, Gilami Pascal Billot, he'd have to help me with the name, but a mesmerist accidentally found a way to engage in idometer, yes, no communication when a patient of his started getting joint undulations in a knee that had been immobile for years. He discovered that he could start and stop these movements in her knee with verbal commands. Using this, he communicated with what he believed was her holy guardian angel or her higher

40:28self or her subconscious or whatever. But he just the same thing you were showing us with the swan. It seems like this spontaneously happened in her knee. And this guy had the intuition to be like, these aren't random movements. There is a communication coming through here. And that is so bizarre. That story is so true. I got bored and locked down and the next band ages going through like all mesmerist books that are in French translating them into English with the help of a French Canadian guy. And mesmerism needs to do lots of trans-based things where like if they would get the other to communicate through the person and embody the whole person, but they had to put the person to a deep trance for that. He was just worked on this woman's leg. And the guy was a doctor before and he'd saw this woman years before. I think was close to 10 years before he'd saw this woman and he couldn't fix her as a doctor. Her leg was just completely a trooper.

41:29And so he started learning mesmerism. He's like this healing thing might help. He's trying to test it out. And so he's doing that mesmeric passes just on the leg, not on a whole body. And he thought the question first about something with her and her knee went three times, left and right. And he's like did you just answer me? And I went don't don't don't again. He's like no and this was all just in his head. And he's like can you show me yes? And I did don't don't again. And he's like can you show me no? I'm like don't don't up and down. And then he started doing it out loud. But from there he got like full verbal communication through the woman as well without doing trance. And that was the first time that they'd been in the hypnosis and mesmerism while that somebody had not trans-happening but the voice where she was channeling. But that drained the woman too much and he had the little voice where it would use like

42:31these idiomoto responses or the little voice where it should have a thought and then she'd relayed. But the trippy as a bit was it was a and this voice gave her the bits of what would fix her and they did the things of what it said and it fixed her. But there was this time that she tripped and her guardian angel dropped a rope in front of her and she grabbed it and he saw this and like she was like near falling over and got lifted back up which is tumly impossible. Now all of them they were just like ready his letters to backwards and forwards to another with therapists trying to like work out what the hell was going on. But that just blew my mind. Yeah. And then a little over a decade before that in 1812 there's Michael Eugene Chevroul. He was a chemist and he was intrigued by a process with a pendulum that his

43:33fellow colleague chemists were doing that they would determine the properties of something they were studying with the pendulum and he was curious enough about this that he experimented with double blind studies to discover the pendulum's movements actually came from our thoughts. But of course you know we don't know where our thoughts come from. That becomes a curious thing. But do you know more about his double blind studies or his ending conclusions because I haven't heard many people actually try to study this in a double blind way. He did it in a way to disconnect the spirituality from it but it was it was used by chemists to try and work out the properties of things that's where where he was seeing it. And it was culturally used to work out if a baby was a boy or a girl and stuff like that as well. What got his attention on it was his chemist's work alongside to go or what chemicals are in these dyes and they all had chemical knowledge as well and so their unconscious would be picking

44:40up smells and things like that. But these people weren't saying he's Zeus tell me what the chemical properties are. They were just asking the pendulum what the properties were. So if you just ask a question more likely than not if you're not asking to connect to something first your unconscious probably going to be the first thing to try and answer through there anyway unless you're trying to connect to something else. But so he would put different things under and he would like switch it out at the last minute and stuff like that with these double blind studies or he'd put the thing not underneath it but next to it because he'd have them blind and somebody like watching what was there. But he was a very much materialistic guy trying to prove materialism. Right but even he came away with it's not nothing. Yeah definitely it's not nothing. Yeah which that was a huge image and discover anyway to realize

45:41we've got this extra way to contact our unconscious. Yeah I mean even if that's your primary use is just to get in touch with your subconscious. I think that's amazing because I do think your subconscious is the gateway to the kosher record or at least has more knowledge than you have and can offer you great insights and you don't need to involve other spirits if you just wanted to try to engage there. Now I still have a lot of questions about dialing up the right spirit or knowing what can be trusted. I mean I know the protocols with this board you set an intention and you ask if it's okay to communicate and you try to be very respectful but like I still wonder if I'm being tricked. I mean I know spirits can lie. You mentioned experiences with ghosts, Lance and I assume you both have had experiences with ghosts and spirits and intelligences but I guess so there are those people who think this stuff isn't real which is not who we're really addressing like if we can't

46:42be one over then you know amount of podcasting is going to do it but then there's those who think it's dangerous which is obviously far different and I'm getting more in that category because the people I know who engage with this stuff Gordon, Tracy Twyman they both died premature deaths. I mean I don't know like Gordon used to say magical wreck your life and you know he was funny he was always saying tongue and cheek stuff like that and I know what he meant by it just like it'll disrupt your life and disrupt the pattern sets that you're already in and you'll probably be radically changed so if you're not ready for radical change that would be a wrecking of one's life you know if you're not willing to go with the flow and Jack Sparrow with it but I mean so many people have said to me and it's it's so shitty but they're like see magic really did him you know a lot of favors didn't it you know and you can't help but think about that you know Tracy Twyman's

47:42channeling boffamit and the biblical cano Ouija board and getting involved in these occult groups and his found hanged in her garage you know whether she was driven to do that mentally from some kind of thing or it was done who knows but it's just the end result and you know Gordon has a heart attack at 29 I'm just joking because he's always so young but you know 44 45 I'm not exactly sure but obviously very young and premature and there was a lot of speculation as to you know what happened even I was thinking like did he offend some local talented shaman who didn't want this gringo around and like he was psychically attacked somehow I don't know it's just you know Gordon had such an epic life and a real talent that like to be like oh he just had a heart attack checking into his Airbnb I thought he would have a better story like that that could be my story but I thought he

48:42would have a more epic story I don't know but it's just one of those things where you have to fold this stuff in that the people engaging in magic that I've known most I mean I don't know how much good at it it has done them it depends on what you're you connecting with as humans we have a big problem I think with misappropriating the difference between trust and fight take spiritual stuff out of it just interacting with another human other humans sometimes going to be dangerous other humans are going to lie to you but when we do the world we start to get a knowing of how well we can trust somebody we we can do little experiments to work out like are they legit or not by like having micro interactions with them and seeing how the results of that pan out if

49:42you ask somebody do something do they do it if you ask somebody something do they tell you something truthful does it play out over time and you get that feedback and especially with human human contact people really often mess up this faith and trusting like faith is dedicated to church based things more or for not but in the average humans relationship we have faith not trust where we just like like trust is based on experience and an example like trust is something happen and I've got evidence that this is where they see so I trust this doubt this is proven to be okay but faith is where there's no evidence there you just find very well and some people we meet humans and we like okay I trust you I've got no evidence so it's faith you stepping in with that so when you you're playing with a pendulum if you're just jumping in with faith well you're probably

50:46going to overreach and have some sort of problem but if you start interacting with something again and again and again and you're able to test where it's at and get feedback of what actually happens well then you can build trust and you know what you're talking with is what you're talking with because you've asked something and then there's been a real world interaction that's come through to the evidence of this thing worked and this thing's been good to me and this thing's been good to me like I did the thing good things happen okay that's great same thing if you interact with the human like if you talk to somebody and he punches you in the face well you probably not going to want to talk to him again everybody in the neighborhood will get that around like if somebody's been punched in the face by somebody you're made or not you're gonna be like watch that guy punch me in the face last week you'll be unguarded when you're around him so if you're gonna talk with something like

51:46my recommendation to start with is family or a friend like something close like you said at the beginning good great places start that somebody you trust somebody who's magically inclined and somebody who will be able to create real world feedback for you of something to give you some trust rather than faith but yeah if you want to talk to something like a goetic demon or something like that you might get burnt yeah look at the source what neighborhood do you pull in the thing from that you tried to talk to right good advice good advice I mean that is what Gordon always said to start with an ancestor altar and you know dig in that way Matt what do you think about the general idea that not that this stuff is not real but just that it's dangerous that it doesn't lends one to live a long fruitful life engaging with it I don't know if it's something they think is

52:49an it sucks energy out of you or what but you know it's just not ideal to have these examples of premature deaths from people who are heavily engaged in magic well yeah I think it is dangerous it can't be it can't be sort of denied that practicing magic is dangerous and just a follow-on from what Lance said you know there's faith and there's trust and I'd probably introduce a third category which is risk and we need to kind of look at the way in which we manage risk just in our daily lives when we're not practicing magic and then assume that that same calculus applies to when you are practicing magic there's big risk big reward and there's small risk small reward and the two are never really out of proportion you're not going to be able to put in low risk and expect massive reward that's just a kind of law of the universe so when you look at the magic that you're practicing you've got to look at what magic are you practicing first of all and what do you want out of any kind

53:52of magical operation if you want a bajillion dollars and you know like a Ferrari that's a big reward you're going to have to go big risk for that and so the kind of things that you're going to have to do in order to get there are risky and dangerous in nature on the other hand there's also big reward and big risk associated with the positive aspects of magic as well which is more aligned I would imagine with fianjelle k rather than the demonic side of things because we have to kind of split everything up into broadly good and bad which is something that I know Gordon didn't necessarily like doing but it's something that I think works for me in order to think about it and the same time big risk with working on the positive side of things brings big reward in terms of things like enlightenment inside wisdom knowledge things of that nature in terms of you know the short life span of a lot of prominent magicians and people who are practicing magic there's so many different

54:55ways in which you can explain why for example with Gordon he passed away so young personally I think it was just a heart thing everything that I'm getting when I do divination whether with the pendulum or with tarot or astrology points to the body just conking out and one thing the Gordon always says is I wouldn't go to see a shaman if I broke my leg I'd go to the hospital and then afterwards I'd go and see a shaman to figure out why that happens so to speak I think the why is really down to it was just his time and I think a lot of the fear that gets attached to instances where people pass away young stems again from the understanding that we all have which is almost unspoken which is this is all there is it's atheistic materialism it's everywhere it's such a pervasive world view that we're all kind of brought up in you know more or less in the West but says this is your one shot at life everything that I've experienced so far in this lifetime

55:57points to the opposite being the case personally I'm a big believer in reincarnation I'm a big believer in the machinations of karma to a certain extent and I just feel like this time around the person that we knew as Gordon he had 45 44 years to kind of do what he was here to do he definitely got a lot done and maybe next time when he comes back he's going to hang around a little bit longer and the conditions under which he's going to try and do the work because as everyone's aware he never stopped working he was always on the go maybe those conditions are going to be a little bit kinder because for those of us who practice magic in this society at this time in history it's hard I mean we're not getting burnt at the stake just yet but we are up against it from the start if you're out there with your shingle out saying I'm a magician like Gordon was very loud very proud the kind of resistance that you encounter not necessarily magical but just societal is going to be pretty strong and it's going to have an impact and the thing that I remember most

57:02about Gordon is that man was all hard he cared he really cared that came from the heart so he was out there raw right from the start and even in my personal interactions with him and speaking to other people who are part of her in soup that knew him they all remember a guy who cared and who had time to talk he may not have been diplomatic when he gave advice but that advice was always genuine so he was hard first and it's almost in a really you know sort of macabre way it's poetic though it was the heart that took him out because it was the heart that led him most of the time so not necessarily a magical explanation for why he left when he did but definitely something that has to do with how we encounter atheistic materialism and how we try and sort of imbue the world with enchantment and see the cosmos as magical and how that can have an impact made can have an impact well said so but before we run out of time here we usually do talk about

58:05guess individual ventures and stuff and man i'm interested about talismans what do you think do you have a story that might represent the most powerful talisman you think you've made or a story that came back to you from someone you made a talisman for that's like an outsized result I think most recently there was a really it was something that made me laugh right and finally enough it was a mercury talisman that I've made I just recently mercury was recently in jemeni and like I said before it's pretty strong and it's nice and it likes being there and some really good conditions were available and mercury is a pretty slippery planet it's always very close to the sun and so getting it at the right time is very difficult and so when I get an opportunity I'll jump on it so I made some mercury talismans and usually what happens after what we call an election after the the right moment and the right little window which can sometimes be as short as like 15 minutes that's all you've got to make these talismans you know you'll get an

59:06augury you'll get some sort of synchronicity some sort of thing that happens that gives you the thumbs up that it's all gone well and mercury has this connection with messengers and mercury has a connection with communication and deliveries and the postal service and couriers right in my own mercury is very close to an astro called chiron and chiron has this reputation as the wounded healer and I finished at my studio I finished you know the ritual and I was feeling pretty good and back when I used to smoke that's usually when I go outside and have a cigarette and so I walked out I just went for a walk no intention to do anything and I walked straight out the door in the first person I see is my courier courier has a very important package for me it's a book I've been waiting on for quite some time and my particular courier has hideous facial scars because of a burns incident that he had when he was a kid and the book itself was about healing and so because

1:00:08in my own natal chart mercury and chiron are so close together this wounded healer slash courier was right there just giving me the book that I needed that's one example that's most recent jumps to mind and then of course we get sort of feedback from customers that by the talismans and they're like yeah I've got the money talisman off you and I got this payout that I've been waiting for or you know I managed to speak to this person about this deal that I've been waiting on that kind of stuff happens all the time but I think in terms of literal results most recently a couple of months ago that happened and I just chuckled all day about that because I'm like oh there's that courier friend of mine and it was mercury and I was doing the talisman for that and it all went it all went swimmingly it was really cool yeah that stuff is cool and it does just take your awareness to put the pieces together I mean even with the board and coordinates like is Gordon involved in pulling the strings to get us all connected possibly I don't have any I don't have

1:01:10any reason to believe yes or no I just thought you know lance was motivated to reach out and then it all kind of happened but it's possible that he is an influence in the process I mean obviously his life is the connector between us but I don't know if he was consciously involved in getting us connected post death but it's interesting to think about things that way I mean obviously I love synchromisticism the art of seeing all the connections and they've seen things transcend real world events to pop culture by separated by decades sometimes really how can these things match so well we are in a weird tapestry of synchronicities and you just are aware of however many of them you're aware of so lance I was going to ask you a little more about reiki because I just think it's so crazy your story with how you were able to use reiki to solve this seemingly unsolvable problem and just the strength to deal with it for so long I mean I hear about the term suicide headaches because

1:02:11people are just like there's nothing in this life that's worth sticking around with this pain for so they just they exit but man to go through that for so many years and then you said reiki can break up kidney stones which is good to know if I feel pain in the future what other conditions you think reiki is ideal for are there some things you see it is not a good match for for people listening who might have a range of ticks and pains and and stuff what do you think it's it's best use cases are I don't like to put it in a box of what it is good and isn't good for quite often because I've been really surprised sometimes of what it's healed like and I'm going to give you the most absurd one that's been the most embarrassing thing to do about three years ago this guy who like had healing's off me can we a little bit awkward one day and he's like look you fix this and fix this and I didn't think reiki'd work he originally comes to see me for hypnotherapy and then was curious

1:03:16about reiki and fix these couple of things for him I can't even remember what they were a pain and I think a little marquee had on his body or something and he's like look every few months I hear herpes flare up and I've got it now I was like do you reckon reiki fix it? I've got no idea and he's like would you do it? I was like you ask me to heal your cock that's what I'm like get it out here yeah sometimes reiki can be done hands off sometimes we can have hands on I probably do about 60% hands on that ice originally I just did all hands off I'm like well one I'm not going to touch a dick you're not taking your pants off a bit go home and call me on zoom so I had a go I was like but I can't guarantee this is going to work

1:04:18I've never like heard of like reiki's cure and herpes or anything like that and so reiki this guy's dick for an hour we just think to come out I'm gonna be out there running with good men but he told me a few months ago this has been no flare ups again and he hadn't worn that long in his life without a flare up like he hadn't gone a year without a flare up before and now it's been multiple years and he's like I think you cured herpes so I'm like well I'm not going to save cured herpes yet because I could be back later off like I don't know but the fact that it stayed away for that long is amazing I think yeah on another huge level for me to be comfortable to like hover my hands over a guy's dick for an hour as a straight man that I couldn't have done years ago the emotional healing and the maturity that reiki is has given me that I did the

1:05:19ask for is a huge thing so like my emotional intelligence when I first did reiki was like a bag of bricks like I was just dumb Aussie male of emotional intelligence we're now like my whole life revolves around it and that's just been this slow softening that I accredit to to reiki and so some people have come to me for like emotional things some people have come for physical things I've got the spiritual things and I've been able to create miracles but some people have come to me for the very same emotional thing spiritual thing of physical thing as somebody else and I've got nowhere it is an unknown force that can do certain things with some people and can't do certain things with others and sometimes that could be the timing of it or it could be the way of it so like for me the migraine didn't disappear completely from somebody else doing it but once I was

1:06:20doing it myself bam it happened like it wasn't even a a fading thing it was just this rushed thing that happened I wasn't expecting it so I open the possibility up of it could fix anything but I'm not going to guarantee it's going to fix anything yeah I wonder what it is that makes that that affects its potency in that way it's unpredictability yeah part of that is the zone person like I think my belief of our consciousness is we are the energy and that interfaces with our body and so like our thoughts and our emotions and our experiences are actually in our energy field and where a receptor that's picking up on that stuff and if all of your energy is pushing to recreate a problem then it's going to recreate that problem so I see some people I'm like I'm not going to do energy

1:07:22healing on you today with what you've said like if we do hypnosis we'll break the pattern of this then I'm happy to clear that energy but with what like you're talking about the problem's going to be back again tomorrow because of the way you're talking yourself the way you're thinking and the way you're acting you're just going to recreate this negative energy again and again and again and again and again through life that's what your consciousness is creating within your own energy so raky might be able to clean that out but it's going to come back straight away okay and you've got to do something with the source of the problem sometimes first before energy can can do something and maybe if I tried raky in the the first week of having that migraine it wouldn't have done anything I don't know maybe I needed to be going through a decade of pain and having those suicide migraines to get to the point where when raky fixed it it had my attention big time

1:08:30like if it could be within a week I wouldn't be talking to you right now I'd be some carpet salesman that has no spiritual life yeah because it wouldn't have grabbed my attention but because it fixed this thing that nothing else could within a decade and it had been like this all pervasive thing of my every second of life thinking I couldn't not think about raky I could not want to share I couldn't not want to chase that dragon and see what else this this does and I could do and I had an experience two weeks into doing raky of like an intensity of level of what a raky experience could be just by doing it on myself then I've not reached again and I got the message like I did all the exact same things the very next day to try and recreate that experience and there was nothing and I got the message of this isn't a toy and that experience

1:09:38you had yesterday was to make you chase the dragon showed you the potential now get to work and so I know like the the cap of what raky can do is is up here where I operate when I'm doing amazing is like down here where I operate on my everyday thing if I'm not like doing myself practice work is just down here and there's been times since it's been at the floor and it is even like that like when I I get sick which I don't if I'm doing my regular daily practices I drop those and all that stress has come in and my key is coffin right in my face then my levels are really low and I won't do healing on anybody because I'm not doing much with it and I can't even do self healing when I get really low but if I keep things up I'm okay so the other week my son's coffin like right in my face and I was fine didn't get sick because I'd

1:10:42been doing the energy healing stuff but all the times we've been lazy and I've been stressed out and haven't been eating well and stuff and get sick yeah so many mysteries around illness to me still I love to talk to Gordon about that too all the time we would throw out weird examples and like I just had Tom Cowan here I wasn't I mean he has been a major impact and influence on me and thinking about contagion differently and thinking about other factors but I'm not wholly satisfied with his dismissal of it overall with some examples real world examples I think we all have but yet having spent time in the hospital recently it's like why are doctors not constantly sick if it's just being around sick people like it has to be more there's other things going on like and we always say oh well I I went and visited my friend and they were sick and now I'm sick but yet you probably you went to the grocery store with 500 people you don't know at all one of them could have been sick and you you just it's something mental I think sometimes because you think about

1:11:44it because this was my friend and they were sick and I was exposed but you just don't think about the other exposures of the strangers you're walking past it's it's it's a bizarre thing it was explained on the Simpsons was it what it wasn't explained on the Simpsons in the early episodes but like has got all these germs in his body trying trying to get him sick and he wants to have a sickie from school and have the day off and he's like mum checks his temperatures like no he's like no test it again test it again and like the germs and the blood cells there and like the blood cells go well we got the word we've got to give in and they usually yeah let the judge so we keep getting orders to let the virus win must be a school day lay down your arms all right let's make some puffs I like it I like it so I know I ask the question about you know magic being dangerous and scary and look at these cautionary tails and that is one part of it

1:12:44I mean magic is a huge topic but you guys are both pretty amazing that you have developed skill sets in this space that are about helping other people I mean hypnotherapy the things that alone can do and then the raky practice being able to heal herpes and kidney stones and all kinds of things like that is amazing those are superpowers and Matt you make these talismans for finding love for wealth for fame for all the not just vanity things but all the things a person might need to amplify in their life to improve their life help increase their ability to manifest I mean that's a superpower you both have developed talents in these spaces in astrology too of helping other people get insight into themselves and so sometimes I'm just like the critics of magic need to fuck off because they just think that there's one thing it's all

1:13:47dialing up spirits and trying to enrich yourself and increase all your ego satisfaction type stuff and it really isn't I mean Gordon too he became a shamanic healer people who see through the veil they usually find some talent some modality to give it back to others like I hope the critics I say this all the time when people criticize me or think I'm some kind of planned or some weird things that people say I'm like I hope you are as proud of your contributions to the world as I am of mine it's a really backhanded way to just be like you know think more about the positive stuff you do instead of criticizing me so much because I'm okay with what I do and I just interview people you know that's all I do so you guys actually solve real problems and amplify things that are lacking in people's lives and it is amazing and I think that's what's so great about Roonsuit what Gordon built I don't know another place like it and the people I've talked to you know senses passing have all had

1:14:53a knack or talent and one part of the dark arts and it almost is always about a service to others and yes this becomes people's jobs but hey if you're good at something you don't do it for free and everybody has a job you know you can be an insurance salesman and a cubicle or you can be an astrology reader a birth chart reader and make talismans and do rakey so I just think it's amazing I think people even if they don't have a lot of magical experience should be a little more respectful of those who who do this kind of stuff but thanks for spending the time with me definitely thank you for sending this out I'm going to be careful but I'm definitely going to have to use it any future projects you guys are working on or definitely take time to give them the links and all the services you do offer if they feel motivated to engage yeah by all means look you can find me a dragon stone astrology dot com that's where all of the stuff is that's where my own podcast is the dragon stone

1:15:54astrology show sorry to plug that it's a thing who doesn't have a podcast yeah exactly you get one when you're a millennial basically and you turn 30 they just you know you get a podcast no I've got a couple of books up there I got some short courses I got the talismans of course and then there's the services that I offer you know readings and not necessarily face to face sometimes with people in different time zones the availability doesn't match and so I do pre-recorded ones as well readings via email etc and check it out dragonstone astrology dot com branch healing dot com that are you I do sessions on zoom or in person with therapy raky counselling and LP stuff off the kasha talks podcast which I randomly occasionally do it is I'm very much not regular with that last time I spoke with Gordon he was kick him our ass to be regular with that and to start a membership which that will be coming sometime in the next couple of months I've

1:16:58been mapping out an energy healing course that's got raky in it but isn't just raky and is really easy simple steps to build somebody's skill with doing energy healing a little bit putting out this as a membership to guide people through matten i do have another project coming up that links energy healing and talismans that will be quite a while away I think it's over a year we're waiting for that election isn't it math yeah it's a year yeah enough time for meditation myself alchemy which is a part of it as well so that's pretty cool so a healing talisman of some kind yes yeah okay we'd have more details but we haven't quite fleshed that just yet follows for a year or two and you'll find out yes people love the long arc of you know follow ups on podcasts they did go in a year is nothing right exactly yes usually it's in one year and out the other but

1:18:02amazing i definitely even with talking to Gordon i was feeling more motivated i was like you know i should do something i should become some kind of healer or something but maybe raky is the thing because it seems like there's a fairly logical path to getting to know a local raky master and then there's a a pretty normal passing down of the torch i guess or i guess raky masters it's not uncommon to say teach me self raky yes yeah i think that's a fundamental part of it yeah you can learn in a day like i put a raky one class on every month once a month because it's really easy i do a six hour class and by the end by the lunchtime people are doing it so skill you have for life and that to be able to do that on yourself or your kids it's just amazing like yeah my my son he got raky from when i first found he was pregnant at five weeks all the way to like when he was

1:19:07birthed i held him for hours and gave him energy so that's a beautiful thing you can have as a connection your kid and help him out when they've scraped their knee and stuff like that he still asked for for energy now when when he has a reboot amazing so yeah i think it's a huge skill but when open my membership i'll send you a link and you can have free access and you'll learn energy you've done so much already but i appreciate that yeah kids are always hurting themselves and if it's easy hey you're speaking my language i like easy yes awesome thanks again guys i know the work that went into the pendulum set it is an honor to have it thanks for even providing the dates that i can consecrate it on i do plan to i always have a wrap up at every interview i plan to hold on to this one a little bit because it's evergreen kind of and when i do consecrated and and have a session then i'll talk about my results right there in the wrap up and it'll be packaged together regardless of how much time it's separated by so it might not come

1:20:12out right away but i hopefully have something to add to it when it does and thank you for your time and it's getting late over there appreciate everything you do thanks for spending the time with me have a good one thanks Greg and listen thanks for that introduction to man getting a Greg carwood introduction is like a career highlight for me man that was i should have thanked you at the stop but i was kind of all struck no it's easy it's easy but i appreciate that nonetheless your legend might you guys got way more talents than me so all right well take care take care mate cheers oh oh it's magic people whoo been a while since we had two guests been a while since we went so hard into practical personal techniques for magical practice so overdue in a couple ways and i think i said this in the episode i know i've said it before i say it to a lot of people all the time when talking about magic in the occult i don't personally have to engage with it very often

1:21:17at all to be confident that it's real and works how many of us don't personally exercise but you can talk to plenty of people who do and discern that it works to transform your body and another parallel is that if you don't know what you're doing with magic or exercise in both cases it's easy to get hurt and that's why i don't do it a lot mainly on the magic side i'll also say i've never heard a more convincing case for reiki my god lances story is really insane and it just seems so powerful to be able to heal others i thought about this a lot ever since gordon got shamanically trained and started doing his own healings reiki is probably more my speed but what an amazing skill to acquire if you can really alleviate your wife's migraines or remove pain from your kid's sprained ankle

1:22:17it is a damn superpower and just the mindset of a person who wants to engage in learning that apply their energy to fixing other people i mean that's a good natured kind soul i like it also the care and attention that goes into the material and the timing of matt's talismans is super impressive you can say that they're expensive and i would not argue but jewelry that does nothing is very expensive to have matt assess your personal astrology and come up with a talisman that maybe fills in the gaps or band aids over something in your chart that looks like a source of struggle or whatever and then cater it to your aesthetic liking that's also sort of giving someone a superpower sometimes it's hard for me to get into this stuff because it's so outside of the interests or knowledge base of anyone in my actual everyday life but doing an interview like this

1:23:22reminds me that if everything is energy and you truly believe that and mean it then this stuff is real and why not engage with it to some degree in a safe way so i did i plan this show out and i didn't want it to be just an advertisement for a twelve hundred dollar pendulum set but i thought if we talked about the history of some of this stuff and the studies that have made it more convincing as an legitimate art form the need to which story being a great example that is so crazy and also we could talk about lances rake healing story and all that together we'd have a well-rounded interview on top of this very personal experimentation the plus show adds a lot of other stuff as always the second hour gets deeper become a plus member and get more of the show you apparently like the higher side chats dot com alright and they did not ask for an interview by the way i don't

1:24:23think they ever expected it they literally just gifted me this because they were confident in the set and wanted to give someone like me the best tool for the job and i'm very grateful and to be reciprocal and to do something outside of the box instead of making this a private thing i kind of put myself on blast and now for the report the next timing window on the chart that they gave me came around it was September 3rd at 747 a.m. pretty much perfect because that is when my kids leave for school almost exactly so to consecrate it i got out my old magic box and luckily i had everything i needed i had a basin for burning incense and a charcoal berquette and seven white candles and a bell and you might occasionally see my alter back there on the bookshelf in the background with really just a cross from my grandparents a crucifix really i know and my dad's ashes and the owl is from my mom's dead brother and the little guy

1:25:31and robes there on the edge you can't see the top of his saint sipperian which is something i got from Gordon the patron saint of magic basically Gordon you know for all the criticisms he did once tell me that he avoids labels but the closest thing would probably be esoteric christianity because i think what he liked is these old saints who had to hide their magic or find a way to be savvy enough to preserve their magical talents and art forms in a way in which the church didn't kill them and saint sipperian that is basically his story to the best of my knowledge and i think Gordon respected that a lot i would want not want to pontificate on why but i think that you know Gordon being gay i think he learned how to navigate a straight world and stay true to himself but also playing in the in the waters with people who don't care about that part of his life know really

1:26:33want to hear about it all that often i think you could interact with Gordon a lot before you ever realized he was gay i think the same could be said about tim dillon that's why people love tim dillon so much and me and Gordon both talked about tim dillon all the time but i think that there's some parallel thinking and respect in the sense that a magician at a certain time depth would have to pretend to be something he wasn't just to stay alive and it's not exactly as drastic today but there obviously is some parallel and i understand why Gordon liked saint sipperian but yes i have that altar back there and the only point is that some of the stuff i needed i keep up there because i read Gordon's books and i have the supplies even if i don't use them very much but for this i made a dedicated space because i didn't think that was good enough based on the book i cleaned the area i showered as recommended i wore all white if you can believe that i have all white

1:27:35but i do and i came in with as much humility and reverence as possible i added a water offering because the book says their instructions are the absolute minimum so i wanted to do one extra thing for good measure and there is an incantation in the book that you need to recite seven times and it's a long one and i also just want to note for the people who are maybe turned off by magic or think it's very dark or their christian bias distorts their view without having ever engaged with the material the incantation says with humble and unworthy utterance in the name which is above all names i call upon the seven sisters that is the opening line and then later on a few paragraphs later it says grant that this talisman protects the light of the eyes gather diamonds damans and spirits of the dead to come and speak and make the user to know of secrets and hidden things i ask this with humble and unworthy utterance in the name that is above all names and in the

1:28:40power of the almighty so gods in the mix here to me this basically does just sound like a request and appeal to god asking hey if you're all right with it this is what i'm trying to do and this is pretty much every book i've ever read i know there are way darker ones yes but for the most part everything i've read comes through the guests largely Gordon but Stephen Skinner and a few others and it all kind of has this tone to it which i don't think is all that bad to me this is personal power granted by god and only banned by church authorities who want to monopoly on such powers and want to be the middlemen between you and your creator of which you are a part so i don't feel that this is anything dark at all so i just wanted to point that out now here was a quick picture of my setup that i took because something very poetic just happened to happen naturally and i've only got a few visuals to share i'll add them to the show notes and describe

1:29:42them well for the listeners but you see my seven white candles around the incense and look how six are bright flames and one just happens to be a very dim flame now i can't control that i can't control the brightness of a flame the candle is clearly lit but how poetic is that given that one of the seven sisters is much dimmer than the others to me that is like very compelling it's a nice sign that something is working because i promised you had stayed that way the whole time too so i did the ritual to consecrate it and then i closed it and i saged the house to be careful and from that point on it's supposed to be ready for use and it's just like i put the sim card in my spirit phone right so then i engaged with it i asked the seven sisters to connect me to Gordon i asked if Gordon was with me and it did move to yes after i did the calibration of course now what i'm putting on the screen is the calibration diagram with my notes on it so as i started to go

1:30:46i realized i wanted to write some things down it was the closest piece of paper i had so i just used it i didn't want to ruin the groove or get up from the space and the surface was a little bumpy and i wasn't planning on showing it to anyone at the time and i wrote some of this with my off hand while i held the pendulum in my dominant left hand so just don't judge my handwriting it was really just so i could scribble down enough to keep things straight that said i started with the yes or no questions because they are the easiest to determine with the pendulum's movement but honestly there's not a lot i need to know that has a yes or no answer maybe i'll get more creative later i should also preface this with context i did talk to james personally Gordon's partner after Gordon died and he gave me more closure on Gordon's death he gave me more context that answered some of my unanswered questions and i said to him hey man please give the runesuit people this context because there's a lot of speculation out there a lot of people are being shitty and a lot

1:31:51of others just want to know what happened to their guy and if you just tell them a lot of the mystery and speculation and shitty comments will die down and so james did exactly that so now i feel more comfortable saying that Gordon had checked into his Airbnb he was supposed to have a call with james and he missed that call so james became concerned enough time went by that james called the host of the Airbnb to do a wellness check and the host went by and found Gordon dead on the kitchen floor when they got him examined the findings were consistent with a heart attack we know he had previous heart incidents and he thought they were solved but you never really know i might have more to add about the work he was doing and the sect he was working with because i did contact her in central america and i did talk to her a lot and she gave me pictures and stuff and i'm planning to do a clip show that would be all the best things he said over the 14 episodes

1:32:59we did but it would be a nice addition to save that for then but these are the details about his death that i think are important in the context of my questions right so i asked him were you in pain when you died and he said no i asked if he had any intuition that he might not survive his trip and he also said no i asked if he was seeking out the protection of the spirit that that sect kind of venerates i asked him if he was trying to protect his health and heart through seeking out this Lamurtae spirit and it kind of went to maybe which probably means that it was a factor but not the primary one knowing Gordon i would think the primary factor was just getting deep into it for his third book so then i moved on to the questions that would require spelling things out which on the board requires a lot more precision and that's hard but as i said in the interview i worked out a

1:34:00couple of questions that Gordon would know the answer to that i don't and that could help me determine if this was a real connection so i asked can you tell me the name of the topus bar that you took me into recent to in london because it was a great meal and i was way too drunk to remember the name and just into the conversation you know the surroundings are what they are i barely remember anything but the general vibe of man that food was great and it was kind of a dark basemony sort of place i remember red and black and a private booth sort of vibe and that's at the bottom of the sheet here you can see it very clearly went to pee and then i and then i thought oh but pee and oh are right next to each other so who knows and then i h k and l now i wasn't getting swings that actually reached the letters on the outside of the board so it did take a little guessing but i said okay i think i have enough to go on to start searching on the

1:35:03internet and i found a topus bar in london called pix peentokes i don't know how to say that second word p-i-n-t x-o-s peentokes it's weird but the pictures really did not seem like a match it was way too bright and vibrant so i really wanted to say yes but i can't if i'm being honest and i do also see the word pizarro on here that's just another place i found that seems like a miss so not worth talking about i looked further and i found one called grimio de brexton and the description says this highly atmospheric topus bar is uniquely set inside a sub-training crypt underneath st. Matthew's church it features a cavernous layout low skillful lighting with mysterious dark pockets and brick archways that lean heavily into a historic gothic vibe authentic

1:36:05Spanish small plates are ordered and brought straight to your table it permanently closed in 2025 but when i look at these pictures the memories just flood back in i'm pretty sure that's where we were i also asked if this topus place was walkable from another bar called the plow because Gordon took us there first and he told me it was where crowley used to drink and that's the part that i always remembered and so yes this happens to be a 15 minute walk from there and i am convinced that the right place was grimio de brexton and really none of those letters match which is disappointing but the description is also very Gordon and so it just fits and i guess i should say there are ways in which the p and these other letters actually was right maybe i'm misremembering i'm really just going on vibes but i can't stress enough how this other spot really feels like the right one but maybe even Gordon's misremembering maybe one of these other spots like pizarro or

1:37:10pics was one of his favorites and we just didn't go there that night so if i'm honest yes the pendulum moved to pee very aggressively in these other letters and here's two topus bars that start with pee that are in so ho but i don't know i'm gonna say it was a miss but it's not a hundred percent there are ways in which it wasn't a miss then i asked about this pit stop we took in the middle of walking around london i don't recall if it was before after dinner but he said that we had to stop at this one place they serve a rare lecore that i really should have so we stopped for a single drink not much bigger than a shot glass and he told me about it and i forgot everything so i asked the pendulum board what was this lecore and in the top right you see the letters i got rol and oh so it was swinging a lot to the second half of the alphabet and not at all to the first half

1:38:12with those letters i went searching and found there's a lecore called rosaleo a rose the core called the apertivo of kings apertief of kings essentially it is a special the core that has had a resurgence in london over the last decade and so on that one i do think that was a better hit and reading that i was like oh yes it was floral it was an apertief you know the whole vibe of like the classiness of like oh you drink this at a certain part of the meal after the meal i think that was it i am going to consider that a hit again i'm kind of just going on feeling i think some of the letters could have been interpreted wrong by me but it was clearly the second half of the alphabet over and over and that's rosl oh and i did write down the first letter r correctly and an l and two o's and after doing the consecration and trying to meditate and tap in again i was pretty mentally exhausted honestly i don't do this very often

1:39:17but i wanted to try one more and i asked if he had a message for listeners of thc and runesuit and i got this is so crazy but s o m m o n siaman with two m's really kind of bizarre i went searching and i found this the call to listen in spiritual and biblical etymology siaman with two m's is the root sound for the Hebrew name siaman which became siaman in the west the literal meaning of this root word is to hear to listen or god has heard when a spirit signals this sound is often a profound reminder that your prayers or inner thoughts have been heard by the divine or your guides alternatively it is a direct directive telling you to stop become still and listen closely to the subtle signs around you so that actually seems like the best hit of all probably a good message

1:40:19for everyone that gordon would want to put out there again it's awkward to hold the thing swing it and then write down each letter not to find myself to negative language but historically i'm also just not good at this stuff to use the phone analogy again i would assume there's going to be a very shaky signal on my end a bad connection no matter how clearly the other party is speaking but this was my first try having not meditated effectively probably since my kids were born so let's call it five years and then i asked him if i could call on him occasionally as a spirit guide and he also said yes and then i said my goodbyes and closed it out and all that and i don't know guys i'm not really here to convince anyone i'm just reporting the results i wish i could have reported something more absolutely spot on convincing certainly better for

1:41:20the show but i'm not going to lie about this sort of thing but even still it wasn't a complete dud or anything i really think i'd be better going through a medium because i think their signal is stronger than my own i think these techniques and processes are legitimate but because of our everything for profit system unfortunately it's really hard to sort through the liars and frauds to find the authentically good talented people and i just get exhausted by the process to be honest with you so i got a couple interesting hits enjoyed actually committing to the process i didn't really feel anything physically but the pendulum did 100% move on its own without any effort from me and that alone is a pretty wild experience i would say and that is about all she wrote on that and higher side news the last show i put up was guy anderson and i expected it to be a bit more well liked with the framing of things as the abc's of conspiracy and going only for the ones that were

1:42:24a little more rare and obscure that things we don't hear about all the time but this one leveled off at a 4.4 i think a couple of the sub bar reviews might be the archaic's brigade or a small aspect of that that certainly is true for the youtube comments and others did say that they just found it to be tame overall that i'll accept guys work is actually not that controversial depending on how you look at it he likes totaria and the resets and the idea of cloning and incubator babies at the world's fairs and even the antiquitex stuff but he's not really going after false flags or mass shooting events or current geopolitics in israel those seem to be much more triggering or risky topics but i do think anything adjacent to alternative energy or anything that leads one to think about a modern cataclysmic cycle can be right on that line but whatever 4.4 we call that a B around here i know i try to maintain a high standard with these ratings and a B feels low to me

1:43:29i already feel this will be a kind of a mixed episode because it's so personal and all that and i could see some people just not being into it or down for it and another one i have recorded is just a guy who i would say failed to highlight what is interesting about his own book despite how many nudges i gave to try to get us into the right groove that the audience would be entertained by it was the first one in a long time where i got off the call and felt man well i don't know what i can do to massage that into something good but it is what it is and you'll have to discern who i'm talking about even if it's not the next one to come out it will come out soon and then you'll know but i am excited about some of the stuff i have on the calendar and i expect several of them to be quite good but you never really know until you do the dance all right well the meetup calendar is going to bring us home as always let's take a look september 13th st. Paul minnesota black stack brewing

1:44:32october 3rd copden elenoi at feather hills vineyard and winery getting classy in elenoi mysteries of little egypt that's what they want to talk about okay go join in october 4th urbana elenoi rigs brewing elenoi coming in hot and then we have basically that's it so two new ones added to the calendar thankfully otherwise we would be talking about one event go forth and throw some stuff on there higher side meetups.com for more info on these particular events or just go on and make your own free and easy to do good way to find other people in your area that like weird stuff all right i'm calling it in thank you for listening take care of you in yours your move esoteric toolbox takers magical world view erasers and of course the never ending chorus line of occult critics your fucking

1:45:55no there are lights in the sky not found on any map creatures deep in the forest the no-ranger hashtag there are things in the ocean you won't see from the land like sunda no obligation to make sure you understand i'm told the truth is out there when you get past the lies it comes when you least expect it and it wears a disguise it'll tell you everything just for a goof can't take any pictures won't have any proof so i watch you live like you never wanted it a lost soul that's forgotten why really hon it is you didn't ask but just let me say

1:47:05this is a horrible approach to seizing the day there are things you can know that you can't even think no doctor has medicine like the shaman's next drink sleep is never better than inside of the dream who promised you anything would be as it seems i'm told the truth is out there when you get past the lies it comes when you least expect it and it wears a disguise it'll tell you everything everything just for a goof so can't take any pictures won't have any proof