Joe Maddon reflects on his brief and disappointing tenure as Angels manager

0:00Crackin is built to make crypto simple by bitcoin ethereum and over 450 other assets in seconds fast account funding fast with draws and Recurring buys if you want to stay on schedule Simple secure and trusted for over 14 years Del mode crackin on the app store or Google play that's KRA KEN Not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to US customers excluding New York and Maine through Payward interactive incorporate view legal disclosures at crackin.com slash legal slash disclosures terms and conditions apply Discover a spectacular island destination with crystal blue seas and less sunshine and the cool Bahamian breeze Baham are located in nasa Bahamas offers your choice of three luxury hotels over 45 fine dining in nightlife venues John Batista all new jazz club the Caribbean's most luxurious casino and one of the kind experiences for the entire family Like our 15 acre tropical water park wildlife sanctuary world-class golf course and so much more visit Baham are calm today from the creators of jury duty comes in new installment full of high-jinks

1:04Hilarity and hot sauce this season. We're taking the comedy out of the courthouse and into the mountains for an annual company retreat The catch everyone but the new guy is an actor. Oh, yeah, and the company is fake season two arrives with bigger laughs Higher stakes and the same heart that made season one a cultural phenomenon Watch jury duty presents company retreat now streaming on prime video You Well, hey angel fans. Welcome back to Halo territory. I am Mike DG Ivana former LA Times baseball writer and host of the show Join by my regular co-host Mark Trumbo the former angels slugger And we are honored to have a very special guest today Joe Madden the former angels manager Joe how you doing today? I'm doing well no more special than you two guys Appreciate that appreciate that

2:05So Joe spent 30 years in the angels organization including 12 as a big lead coach from 1994 to 2005 before becoming Tampa Bayes manager in 2006 He spent nine years with the rays leading them to the ale pennant in 2008 Before moving on to Chicago where he led the cubs to the 2016 world series title Breaking that franchises 108 year championship curse Joe returned to Anaheim in 2020 and spent two and a half years managing the angels before being fired on June 7th 2022 That team was 27 and 29 at the time They were actually 27 and 17 on May 24th before losing 12 straight games And they have gone 254 and 338 since a winning percentage of 429 So first question Joe Do you feel a little scapegoated by an organization that is clearly not gotten better since you were fired?

3:07Oh my um, you know, honestly when I went back there um I wanted to I wanted to go back there. I wanted to go back to Anaheim At opportunities to go to other Organizations possibly at least interview for jobs, but I wanted to go back to the angels because I was an angel. I grew up as an angel 1975 signed out of the Wichita Tournament um started the next year Quatsity's eyeway eventually become a scouting a manager Saw it all the way through so the ascension of the minor leagues eventually a world series in 2002 and then Just a real turnaround of everything so I leave for a couple years, you know I'm very grateful for Tampa Bay and of course Chicago, but Um, it's not going to Hazelton High School. I consider the angels like Hazelton High or even Lafayette College Right that's that's where I came from that's I was 11th Street and I wanted to go back there because um, I knew what we were like. I knew the kind of um Player we had and I thought it was gritty. I thought it was gritty. I thought we were fundamentalists I thought we played the game right and hard

4:08Um, it was nobody wanted to play the angels nobody and asked the Yankees the Beautiful Yankees of the late 1990s and early to the they did not want to play the angels So I wanted to bring that style of ball back and I thought we were we hit a bad moment. We hit a bad moment Um, yes, a lot of there was a lot of things dictated to me within that 12-game losing streak Um, you know, that was just the the way of the baseball world right now And and so I'm not blaming it. I'm not blaming it on that. I'm not blaming it on me We just didn't we didn't pitch well. We didn't do a lot of things well for for 12 games if it's stunk However I absolutely a thousand percent believe had we been left alone The the difference in the record between that moment and would it would you just read off would have been dramatically different Well, it sounds like um There was uh a lot of positives and then there was losing streak as you mentioned and I know that you had You know done something to inspire the club and we're

5:11You know, it's been um talked about but unable to really showcase it we're talking about the haircut um I guess the question is was there some relief um I know and I'm almost guarantee you are someone who wants to see see things through So being let go in the middle of a season is is less than ideal, but Uh, was there any friction with some of the Analytics that were coming down. I know I know you've talked about it in the past, but As someone who pioneered a lot of this uh in many ways It seems like maybe certain parts of it were overdone The meetings were going way longer than they should. I know as a former player Day-to-day meetings at last 20 minutes or more That you lose the guys immediately. It's very hard to stay in tune Um, and it seems like you were getting a lot of pushback. So uh, what was there any relief? You were kind of able to separate from that environment Well, yeah, I mean first of all, you're right. I mean, I've been into analytics before analytics became popular

6:14Even in the 80s and 90s. I did my own version of it and when I Benchcoach room Marcel and then TC and eventually so I had my own version of it up on the board And actually if I showed you the work I did in that time frame Compared to what's being done right now. It's very similar other than the fact that more sophisticated now because they were able to scout every game So that was the primary difference and Again, it's not it's not about receiving analytics. I wanted it and I asked for it And I and I always post questions to try to fine tune whatever I got whether You know with the rays and then eventually with the cubbies I was you know, I have questions and yeah, I did question a lot of what was given to me because your eyeballs don't lie And then sometimes they do you know, and you have to like you make a suggestion or you make a statement and they They give you like a piece of paper with some numbers on you. Oh, oh I was wrong. I saw it differently. So that it works both ways But with the with the angels. Yeah, I just I want stuff. I want information. Give it me all give it to me all give it give it to me by three o'clock

7:18And I prefer it like in the morning I with the cubbies. I got a PDF in the morning with all their stuff I would sit in a coffee shop On chestnut right down from the water tower in Chicago little Cuban coffee shop with my headphones and my iPad And I would I would do everything and they had it. They also had a An app called ivy the cubs had this thing with it so you I could have I could have previewed any better Any picture in any game for the last couple years if I because I wanted to see when they when they gave me a number A matrix number on a universe as a picture. I wanted to see why and you know, I'd like the swing Plan of a swing the the shape of the pitch all these different things were important to me and especially when I didn't know anybody with my own eyeballs So, uh, yes, the became too intrusive. I don't like people in my office Shoot even an hour before the game when I was in interim manager there with Billy Bavace I said I don't want anybody in the office an hour before the game I'm getting ready. I don't need any more interference. I don't need any more information unless I ask for it

8:20You've already given me all you got. So that's it. So I think with the front offices need to understand now and analytical departments There's got to be a time frame where you are permitted downstairs to a certain time. I'm saying 230 maybe three o'clock at the most and then after that go back to your offices go back Started accumulating more information. You don't belong in a clubhouse. You don't belong in a room A meeting room right next to the coach's room. You don't belong there. Sorry, but you don't You have a job to do and we have a job to do and when everybody does their jobs separately and well Good things occur but when groups want to Impose on other people's jobs That's when things start to break down and that's what's going on in the modern game right now So it's a angel fans know all too well. It's been a decade of futility for them Ten straight losing seasons now. They haven't reached a playoffs since 2014 Two-part question extremely loaded. Why haven't they been so bad for so long and how do they turn this thing around?

9:26Well, I think part of it is and I think Mark could attest to this the infrastructure is not good I'm just talking about basically the the facilities at Anaheim stadium the facilities in In Mesa Our tests give me tempi which got better by we're just moving from the ballpark upstairs Eventually the major league team took over the minor league facilities, which was backwards to begin with So there's there's part of the infrastructure itself. However, I will defend once we got downstairs to the minor league Spring training complex Which was at one time like I said the major league was less than it became better I'm not denying that but you walk in Anaheim stadium in the locker room itself and and the way everything is set up It's just if you look at their weight room and training abilities their batting cages all that stuff compared to I mean that was with the cubbies. I mean the cubs were the the big leagues of the big leagues That's just quite frankly. That's what they are And I can't I mean when it comes down to money amount of money you have and how much you want to spend

10:28Don't just focus on bright sexy sexy objects tiny ought sexy objects Focus on the things that are very non-sexy things that really make a difference And a lot of that has to do with how you set up your players to succeed on a daily basis Um, and I think that's where the interests have been short Right down to the locker room facilities. I guess I said the way training facilities batting cages Mesa everything about it is is substandard compared to what's going on in the world today So I think it starts right there after that It's just arrived at a Culture arrived at a functioning culture and a philosophy of who we are now we want to do this I don't think that's been arrived at there's no set weight Which there was in the 80s when I was running the mind like system we built that fabulously Look at our record of putting guys in the big leagues at that time Gets into the 90s. We made a good run. We fell apart with Seattle. However, we knocked on the door very loudly

11:32And then T.C. when T.C. was there we came close every year Finally so shows up and Honestly brings a dodger culture there and I'll tell you what dodger culture is Fearlessness It's real baseball It's not worried about making mistakes. It's fundamentalism And that's what so shbrought them with him himself So Shes main attribute for me was the fact that he was fearless It's kind of like David Parker David Parker Larry Boa my favorite major league coaches that ever worked with and it comes on to one thing Fearlessness They're not intimidated by anything So Shes never worried about answering a tough question ever ever So Shes pulled the button or pushed the button or pulled the string based on what he thought was the right thing to do in that moment The sort of did the same thing et cetera and I'm not here to glorify the dodgers because I hated them I hated them instructionally. I hated their white uniforms. I wanted to beat them so badly You know right now Andrews there so Andrews show or whatever But I hated the dodgers. I did everything I dislike them

12:34But there was a lot to like about them based on just one word Never worried about making a mistake Going out there and playing trying to do the right thing in the moment And if it didn't work out if it was a good baseball place so what turn to page So Shes really good at that. So Once he left that's what you're missing this level of consistency Set philosophy whether you agree with it or not. It doesn't matter if if there's a strong culture in place And people buy into it if you look from outside in people are gonna Choose it to being wrong or it should be doing this differently or better But social never worried about that. And that's why they were successful while he was there That's what's been missing that was what I was attempting to do is to bring back a Culture of fearlessness fundamentalism playing the game right right now They don't even care about mine because they get they bring guys to the big leagues way too soon They're always trying to justify the draft. Those are the kind of things that are getting in the way

13:36Start trading crypto on Kraken with just $10 by bitcoin ethereum and over 450 other crypto assets in seconds Kraken has been around for over 14 years and is trusted by millions worldwide Whether you're brand new or looking for a better experience Kraken makes it easy to get started Download Kraken on the App Store or Google Play. That's KRA KEN Not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to US customers Excluding New York and Maine through Payward Interactive Incorporate If you legal disclosures at Kraken.com slash legal slash disclosures terms and conditions apply Discover a spectacular island destination with crystal blue seas endless sunshine and the cool Bahamian breeze Baham are located in nasa Bahamas offers your choice of three luxury hotels over 45 fine dining in nightlife venues John Batista all new jazz club the Caribbean's most luxurious casino and one of the kind experiences for the entire family Like our 15 acre tropical water park wildlife sanctuary world-class golf course and so much more Visit bahanlar.com today attention fans of jury duty the groundbreaking comedy series is back for season two

14:41Featuring an all-new cast this installment takes the comedy out of the courthouse and into the mountains above Malibu for an annual company retreat The catch everyone put the new guys in actor. Oh, yeah, and the company's fake gets to know all the employees of rock and Grammaz hot sauce a family business with everything on the line season two arrives with bigger laughs higher stakes And the same heart that made the first season a cultural phenomenon and here's the fun part You'll be able to try all four flavors of rock and gram as hot sauce on Amazon Jerry duty presents company retreat is now streaming on prime video. Don't miss the feel good comedy. Everyone's gonna be talking about So incredibly throw answer and much appreciated it reminded me of the day as a genotry park with jeter hines Uh, telling me and so you know to your point He never minded the physical mistakes aggressive physical mistakes were part of the deal He wanted you to go out there and lay it on the line the mental mistakes were another

15:44area you You know, basically I was under the impression if you were to miss a sign in the big leagues You were gone That was how serious that that type of stuff was the attention to detail and I haven't seen that for many Well, at least the last couple years um One one area that I wanted to ask you about this is not so much angels. It's really more broad But I've had some spirited debates with a friend of mine who Has risen to the ranks of a bench coach In the major leagues, but but he's told me it's more about the process these days And I said what are you talking about? It's about winning The big leagues is about winning and he said no you're wrong. It's about the process and I've talked about it on the show a few times But I think you might be qualified if any of that makes sense I the big leagues to me is only about one thing at least that's the way it was taught to me We're there to win we're there to win a world series Only one team does every year, but that is the goal Uh, and then the minor leagues are for development and the process and air quotes um

16:48Can you expand on that a little bit if you have any thoughts? Yeah, they didn't finish the he didn't finish the statement I used to say the process is fearless Meaning that if you stick with a process or the process whatever that might be what that means to you That would then permit you to attack a situation fearlessly Because you've done all the right things in order in advance of the moment And there should be some comfort involved in that So that's where the process mean can you revisit talked about that a lot Kenny didn't necessarily like that phrase as much the process is fearless But to me it made all the sense in the world because if I stay with my process I'd never be concerned about taking chances The last part that this or their omitting is if you stick with the process and build these these these building blocks annually to me That would lead to a pile of wins because with that meant to me that you're You're systematically doing the right things on a daily basis. You are eliminating mental mistakes. That's what I

17:50the game the mental physical mistakes have Part big part in the game mental mistakes have no part in our game So if you stay with the process and build on that meaning that you know this goes a goes before b b goes before c etc etc etc If you do that daily then that's going to permit us to put that nice pile of victories that keep adding up as the season goes on so if you just want to Focus and rely on the process. It's like it's like the analytical world analytics provides a safety net for decision-making So if you just stick to the analytics and it concludes that you don't do well If you just stay with it for a while eventually it's going to work out the same with these people if you're talking about the process the process Standing alone provides a safety net for not being successful Because I got a process. I'm staying with it and thus at some point it's going to work out There's a part of that it is that is true. However

18:53When you become satisfied with just that and that's the that is the problem My only concern is that I work my process well and There's no real concern about winning then you've totally Misconstrued with that's what we're talking about right there So I think a fearless process done well in a daily basis Leads to winning because it leads to Not being concerned about making mistakes. I have done my prep The hay is in the barn as Kenny used to say and that could go out there and play you know balls out Not worried about making mistakes if it's the right baseball if it's if it's right to throw behind the run run first base with You know play run run first and second say for instance double play situation still in order But this guy first base is getting huge leads It's a great time for the catcher to back pick in order to keep him closer so that we can't complete a double play And I'll get my shortstop kill now if the catcher makes that throw and it goes down the right field line I'm upset It was the right thing to do in that moment

19:54Runner on third base in field in okay, and this this runners taking this enormous secondary lead At third base in order to try to get a jump and go that's another great time to back pick at third base As an example if that ball goes down the left field line I'm not upset because it was the right thing to do in the moment And that's where analytics really fall short because none of that is taught So what's the toughest part of the game to coach currently It seems like pitching has an incredible amount of resources and hitting is always frantically trying to catch up And most hitting coaches are lasting under two years right now Stop blaming them please You know if you want if you if you want better hitters either Draft them or buy them. You know who good hitters are It's really hard to take a guy that has not really been successful and make him successful in a major league level number one analytics Absolutely slants towards the pitching side of things. It's a proactive part of the game

20:56The hitting is the reactive part of the game hitters and not only that I mean with the velocity that where it is right now and and the sharpness of breaking balls having to commit sooner In order to get your swing started against certain kind of velocities Makes it even more difficult. It's just more difficult. It's a very difficult thing to do So stop blaming hitting coaches blame your process at When is how many going to start blaming the acquisition process? That's really what it comes down to When you rely on hitting coaches to take somebody that's deficient One of the most deficient things and most difficult things to do is to teach um, you know The discerning between balls and strikes organizing your strikes when that's not easy When we were there in 2000 until we won That was something that I was into if you go back and read all the stuff that I wrote before then I was about balancing my walks the strikeouts That was a big thing for me among my hitters a two strike approach a really big thing. I called the b-hack Really big thing about what I did as a hitting coach That is not necessarily taught anymore So we're constantly trying to get hitting coaches to take somebody

22:01Who really is not a lot of it's just not ready to be there keep them in the minor leagues a little bit longer Supply the minor leagues with more efficient and better at hitting coaches as opposed to just an ipad Or at dad and information or video because that's really what it comes down to I want you know I had I had mervretman had Benny Hines gosh. I had so many bob clear I had so many great hitty coaches that I came up with Grick down and was able to Pick their brains and there were there are the guys that made me a better as I was hitty coach In the minor leagues for seven years to just rely on data information and and the like And consider yourself a hitting coach and that's what they're relying upon right now. Timmy is absolutely wrong Um The criticize your acquisition process Uh go through that verse before you start criticizing coaches because a lot of times the acquisition process Which is where I would want to use analytics more than anywhere would be in the end because there's that that's where you can really Comp and compare in November december look under the hood. What are we missing on this guy?

23:03What is that guy? How that we're missing? That's where you want it season in progress trust me It it is so overrated when the season begins Um, it's it's accurate with defense. No question. I give it to me I want to know where to play my shorts off against mark tremble. Absolutely. I do and I'm playing a lot It's gonna be very successful and wood and I want where should I shift with two strikes? What is you know what kind of adjustment does he normally make with two strikes? It's there pitching. Yes Uh, what is what what do I want to attack mark then the strike? So what do I want to attack them with two strikes and this is individually versus right hand left-handed pitchers and the same thing Uh on what do I want to play my shorts up it all goes against righties and left these things change Everything fluctuates just based on hand it is too. So there's certain components of this that are really accurate And I want absolutely I want give it to me versus what we're doing but then there's the nebulous part of it and When you start like before the game I tell me what really pictures can or cannot pitch and where you want me to slot them all the time

24:06My starting pitches the third time through the batting order. I got to pull them out. Why if he's pitching really well Why has that not been nurtured in the minor leagues? We've taught the guy to go the third time through and have him understand Maybe you got to hold back something the first time through the batting order in order to like really feel Conquer with the third time through the batting order and why how about just damp the in the tank in the first couple three four innings Because all I want is elevated velocity with a lot of spin and there's no pitch ability Talked about whatsoever. There's so many there's there's so many discrepancies with this and after all If it all it came down to his analytical approach Why would any team be under 500 there should be like just one big Major leagues worth the 500 that the information is always so good and after it comes down to the the the acquisition process That's it. I mean nobody talks about this stuff, but that's really where it's at Start trading crypto on Kraken with just $10 by bitcoin ethereum and over 450 other crypto assets in seconds Kraken has been around for over 14 years and is trusted by millions worldwide Whether you're brand new or looking for a better experience Kraken makes it easy to get started

25:09Download Kraken on the App Store or Google Play that's KRA KEN Not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to US customers excluding New York and Maine through payward Interactive incorporate view regal disclosures at Kraken.com slash regal slash disclosures terms and conditions apply Discover a spectacular island destination with crystal blue seas endless sunshine and the cool Bahamian breeze Located in NASA Bahamas offers your choice of three luxury hotels over 45 fine dining in nightlife venues John Batista all new jazz club the Caribbean's most luxurious casino and one of the kind experiences for the entire family Like our 15 acre tropical water park wildlife sanctuaries world-class golf course and so much more Visit bahamara.com today Attention fans of jury duty the groundbreaking comedy series is back for season two Featuring an all-new cast this installment takes the comedy out of the courthouse and into the mountains above Malibu for an annual company retreat The catch everyone put the new guys in actor. Oh, yeah And the company's fate gets to know all the employees of rock and grandma's hot sauce a family business with everything on the line

26:16Season two arrives with bigger laughs higher stakes and the same heart that made the first season a cultural phenomenon And here's the fun part you'll be able to try all four flavors of rock and grandma's hot sauce on Amazon Jerry duty presents company retreat is now streaming on prime video Don't miss the feel good comedy everyone's gonna be talking about I would agree 100 percent I can answer those questions on my personal scouting We're not how to catch me as well without an ounce of analytics Experience taught me a lot of that Jared and I actually we were we're talking about going deeper into games the On the pitch inside and having a third pitch And a word command Which is all that disappeared as cashers set up down the middle now By and large and there's a lot of goofy stuff going on this question though is about Where have all of the ex players gone on coaching staff

27:16I'm wondering if front offices view The majority of ex players is there a stereotype of them being outdated Are they not hip to the new protocols of the weighted balls and You know batting tees if anyone remembers what those are by the way Most really good hitters use one and I was a big proponent, but to each their own I just don't see ex players being hired. I see guys from the outside from facilities And other places that really haven't earned their stripes You know getting promoted to the major leagues ahead of guys that have been Toiling away for a long time trying to earn their shot. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, it's kind of insulting in a lot of ways and my biggest concern is who's passing the game along Which you're just talking about with the the ex players as coaches Who is passing the game along that was so vital to me And I know I get I get some kickback on all this stuff where people will get annoyed when I say things like this because

28:17Times have changed. Oh really The moment you stop thinking experience feeling intuition matter You're setting yourself up the failure absolutely On a minor league level right now, which is really consider kind of almost like a courtesy Just to like park some guys for a couple years and develop and really as a part of it That's why you see all these orchestrated pre-game batting practices and stuff starting at three o'clock in the afternoon does nothing but tire guys out These are major league players are not a ball or double a guys you're trying to get to the big leagues I sew against the orchestrated choreographed pre-game on a daily basis. I can't even begin to tell you I prefer guys coming to the ballpark later. I prefer less work before I prefer a Arrested mind and body going into a major league game with adequate amount of time A lot of for getting loose and whatever study you need I promise you show he does not need these volumes of analytical information before every game. I promise you that's not true

29:18I've heard recently. I mean like last night at dinner And I knew this to be true like Major league guys will go like into different cities former major league players start players with different organizations And they'll go in and they'll hang up by the batting cage or be there at a spring training for a bit As they get there, they're immediately told okay, why you're here. Please We don't want you to speak to any of the hitters about anything about hitting and pitchers. Please Love having here. It's wonderful to have you're great, but Don't not speak to our pitchers about anything Regarding pitching mechanics methods whatever that you might have. We really don't want that True. It's it's happening. This is not ball made up stuff. This is true. I recently Refriend that a lady by name of Laura Long I got some information about a book she recently wrote You've you've you've already know She's a professor at Northeastern University in Boston Fascinating woman and her book is great and pretty much it really comes down to She's advocating for and defending experience

30:21Intuition feel gut feel especially she's she's defending it and she's and she's got examples and it's talked to CEO CEO CFOs all the heads of different corporations throughout And defending the fact that these really do exist this this other sense or ability to recognize What's the right thing to do in the moment exist outside of math? And it's a really well played book. It's it's a great read I actually I'll wake up some mornings and I'll have a thought right down this long elongated text or email And I'll send it to her and I want her feedback. I want to know what she thinks about it And so she her explanation and her research is so clear On where experience and falls in intuition and gut feel falls in high level decision making And how important it is to have that independent of math listen I always I always want I always want the numbers given to me Throw me that stack. Give me reams of it But just permit me then to call it down and then permit us as a coaching staff to call it down to the point where we then

31:29Distributed among our players who we know who could handle stuff and who cannot meetings can be laborious and boring It's 162 games season. You need to cut that time element down. You need to um That's it. I mean everybody they're all working they being everybody every organization is working from the same sheet of music because It's pretty much a competition among front offices probably even more so than it's a competition on the field That's where it's gotten to so I will argue this with anybody any time I'm looking for that first group that comes back and incorporates tried and true methods With the incorporation of new data and stuff, but at the end of the day one voice should be heard In a dugout on the field in the clubhouse the manager has been kind of castrated to a certain level And right now the front office has really ruled the roost managers have turned into middle managers They no longer have the same authority To say what they think when they want to say it and express it the way they want to because they got to run it through this

32:34This Serve this this of infrared this that that that that delutes or extrapolates information down through the bottom that eventually is permitted or not permitted to be set truth That's all truth Speaking of managers Joe uh the angels this hired Kurt Suzuki and loves it One of the challenges of being a first-time manager because teams seem more willing than ever to go with youth and and Let's be honest, you know cheap They're saving a bunch in salary What are the challenges of a guy like Kurt Suzuki coming into this situation? Well, first of all it really is a classic Contemporary method of leadership, which is control over empowerment I've definitely concluded that there was a time when I was coming up any job I got even as a youngster I was empowered to do my job Larry Himes was my first scouting director and tell you what He was in LA and I was over here and and I was over in Mesa

33:36And regardless of that separation He permitted me to do my job, but he definitely monitored my job every day Made me send in a week's worth in advance. Where am I going? Who am I going to see? I had to write down who the scouts were every place that I went to blah blah blah whatever But when it came to writing my reports. I wrote my reports based on His a guidance like pointing things out to me, but at the end of the day when I saw Timmy salmon or Chad Curtis or Jackie Howe or Kirkman Castle or all these guys those involved with and signing I got to write my own report That was my report based on the stuff that I had learned as a player and then with with Larry Luke Cohen hour and all these dudes Lloyd Christopher all these great scouts Gene Thompson that I met with so I was never Coerced into putting something down. It was always my stuff And when you learn how to grow your own stuff, then you actually know things When you're always appeasing, ameliorating somebody else in charge being that is controlling you You never really learn

34:36You don't know what you know. You don't really know anything. You just know you're regurgitator And so that's that so that's part of why the younger generation is being hired without experience number two I like Kurt a lot having said all that we had a great relationship there as a Coach manager and Kesher. He's really he was wonderful to Exchange ideas with daily. He's a really good game call. He's a he's fearless on the fieldman solid man Go out to the mound talk to him. Everything was great All that was in order. All that was in place First time manager for me and what that was I'd hope false 1981 27 years of age I 32 players on my team Eight of them spoke Spanish only and I was it. I didn't have a first-base coach third-base coach pitching coach The year of a strike Who came in the town Mike Port came in the town Preston Gomez came in the town Warren Spawn was my or my only pitching coordinator and I guess yeah merbulous merbrettman was the my only hitting coach at that time

35:38That was it So you're an idol falls 32 dudes. We got stopped where our bus was we're going into Canada 11 o'clock or whatever at night. There was nobody at the border there to check the passports of our kids We had to spend the night there at the border Okay, that was the minor league baseball that's what we did and you had to somehow Figure that out and you had to work through that the time that Cauchman Tommy Cauchman I was with them. They're going to Eugene Oregon their rooms weren't ready because we drove all night from Boise get there like seven eight in the morning rooms Art ready I happen to be with them and I went on the bus. I didn't fly because I did it to be on the bus So I said let's go we went over to the Oregon coast. I slapped on an American Express card Which I've listened I had no money at that time, but I know it's going to expense it and then you have the Boise hawks staying on a Beautiful tell on some kind of beach in Oregon. These are the kind of what is I know that's not baseball But it means everything it means everything you have to learn how to create in a very negative situation so

36:38That's the only way I can could spare with the zoos going through as I got to go back to 81 with dicky scoffield the Von white Those are my big guys on that team and and and what that was like no pitching coach no first big coach Throw on regular bp throw an extra or whatever So that's the difference and then when you do do that You grow up knowing what you know I use that phrase a lot, but it's true It's you can't be regurgitator. There's too many regurgitators in the game people really don't know Truly what they think they know or that what they regurgitators say because they haven't lived it And so when I say it's kind of insulting. I'm not hammering whomever is in that position I want zoog to be successful. I want to fellow Video I want to be I want all these guys to be successful But if you're asking me honestly what I think about it if I retrace my history and I knew how important all these steps were to me I could have never helped the cubs win the World Series never Cracken is built to make crypto simple by bitcoin ethereum and over

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39:53Idaho Falls the old ballpark. Yeah, what I don't Correct, absolutely But there were many of those and you had to fight your way out of it I say in that often heard if you don't like it get better through signs And You've already answered this all pivot a little bit Instructionally we used to and I think maybe you were part of this have to write down if you were an adder A subtractor or a neutral If you weren't part of that you probably might agree with it But it was self-evaluating for minor league players and I always put neutral for I was talking to Abe Flora's the other day about it Hopefully, you know people thought I wasn't too delusional at one point I did think I turned the corner and maybe was capable of putting adder But that was part of the cultural stuff that that I saw coming up that you needed to Sometimes be very honest and I think that's the feedback that always helped me the most was brutally honest feedback Even how you speak to people and come off

40:55Apparently I was a came off as a know-it-all and Craig Graybeck And no uncertain terms told me to figure it out and change that and it seems in the game now that that is Very unlikely to happen players don't want the tough criticism I think there's a fear they're going to you know curl up and Disappear on you and it seems like a very challenging time to manage personalities and especially with your background And you know experiencing those tough places to fight your way out of And now this culture at least you know in my opinion. It's I don't want to say soft, but it's different If I tell you the truth you might not like me for a week or 10 days If I lie to you, you're going to hate me forever I recently went back to the the Cubs Convention right we were celebrating 2016 And You know, I didn't know what to expect overall. I mean, I knew it was going to be a celebration It was me happy the fans are going to be great. It was absolutely jammed. I was tremendous

41:58But the part of it that really overwhelmed me Were conversations individually with players from that team You know guys that maybe I was a little bit hard with in 2016 or guys maybe that I did not Can see to all the time and stood stood my ground These guys came up to me during this time and we're absolutely Uh, blew me away in a magnificent way And I can see that that I was right and maybe they were wrong And that to me is like that's the validation if you're looking for which I never do But if you are all that tells you is like just keep doing what you're doing Which I'm more than likely I would but when you hear it from some really you know good players too Not I'm not just talking about bench guys. I'm talking about some guys and So when your stuff is validated and happen with the race to after I left the race I got that kind of a feedback from the guys with the race too, so I thought about this several years ago in the phrase I just gave you if I tell you Excuse me if I tell you the truth you might not like me for a little bit

43:01But if I lie to you you're gonna hit me forever. So I like okay, what's the best coach? What's the best major league coach? I feel again to word fearless major league coach the guy that's able to have tough conversations That is a great major league coach It doesn't have to have a PhD or whatever in hitting or pitching or whatever If he shows up every day works hard and is an open communicator and speaks freely and openly Honestly with my players this guy's a good coach because that's what you need you don't need to assemble They'll take the truth and soften it up or make it appealing to them ever you're speaking with now Honestly without compassion could equal cruelty, but that has to happen outside of the athletic world or professional sports That happens with the fifth grader, you know, if I'm talking to my daughter or it's you know somebody Outside we're talking professional baseball players So honesty without compassion equals cruelty knowing your audience But when it comes to professional sports if you don't have it grow some thick skin. There's got to be a supplement for that

44:03There's a supplement for everything else My best coaches were the dudes that shot me straight Don't out and I had some tough coaches starting in June Midget football the high school football to College football to to baseball in the mind. I had some most tubing bob clear dude If you don't want to hear it don't ask the question Because it's coming unfiltered man, and it's coming right between your eyeballs That's still the best method of communication. I'm talking about on a professional level We do sugarcoated too much Best coaches are Brian Butterfield stud Absolute stud, you know Mickey Hatcher buddy black Pepe Ron Reniki might be the best ever you ask rags a question Be prepared to have your hair part it If he disagrees with you, and that's just the way it is Okay, let's turn our attention to the world baseball classic All of our world baseball classic coverage is brought to you by our friends at Fox one Which is live stream all your Fox favorites together in one place including all WBC games over the next few weeks

45:08And after that the best MLB action all season long Well the US kicks off. It's WBC Friday against Brazil and Houston And Joe I've seen some players on this year's team calling this group the quote best collection of US talent ever assembled Knowing Mike Trout as you do how do you how much to this burn Mike Trout who is the captain of the last WBC team Knowing is not a part of this Well, there's got to be a part of him absolutely that's got to be upset about it But there's also got to be a part of that like come on man I need to stay healthy this season too. I mean it's he's he's already done that it's so one of those things you've already been there Done that I know they didn't win necessarily, but Gosh, I mean after all It's about playing the last game of the season and winning it more than it's playing the last game of the WBC and winning And I'm sorry, but I listen it's it's kind of a cool little gig that we do right now, but I don't get overwhelmed by it at all

46:08Um as as a baseball purist for me it's about Shocking your team into position to get to the playoffs and like I said play the last game of the year and win it That's really what we should be focusing on. I'm always concerned about ramping up too quickly. I am I thought we thought spring training should be a slow dance and not and not this uh, you know fast dance or break dance that it's become when the WBC pops up So um, I just think it's wise for him not to be Maybe make him an honorary captain having show but I mean that that doesn't serve any really purpose Just let them play might you take care of yourself and get ready for the season and and get as many games under your belt as you possibly can and help I get the angels bright up back on the right path that to me would be My made my made motivation. I believe so that's how I see it From the WBC through the World Series to the World Cup to NASCAR and IndyCar with Fox one you get it all live Start your seven-day free trial Today offers are subject to change

47:10Download Fox one today and stream the World Baseball Classic Live March 6 through 14 Go to Fox one dot com for complete terms and conditions Fox one streaming now Well, Joe one of your many claims to fame is that you're the only manager in major league history modern day To intentionally walk a batter with the bases loaded twice to Josh Hamilton in 2008 and Cory Seeger in 2022 You won both of those games with the raise and eight And angels in 2022. How do you how do you reflect on those decisions? Well, yeah, the Josh Hamilton could not have been hotter could not have been hotter and he would have tied to score By pitching to him and I definitely Absolutely, he would have tied to score. I mean that intuition experience was them whatever you want to call it That was that came to bear in that moment I know Grant Balfour didn't like it because Grant was actually a reverse flick guy. He was really good against lefties

48:13But I think Marlon and Bird was on deck and had Danny Wheeler and the bullpen and Danny had been really good against variety So we just made the move and obviously it worked and so We put them within a grand slam way of beating us. I believe the actual occupant would have been so anyway That falls under the category of Dodger Mania where you do the right thing and don't worry about answering a difficult question That's that's really what it comes from and that was my That see when you when you have a feel of freedom in the dugout if you feel freedom and supported by your front office You do things like that And when you don't Feel supported. It's more difficult. I thought I would have probably done it anyway, but It matters man That's why it's so important for the in today's world especially the GM whomever's up top president whatever that head guy is The manager has to feel that support Now however having said all that managers today are rarely going to go rogue They're going to follow the script and the script is written before the game trust me. So Anyway, that was that the second one secret now. This is

49:16This goes back to prep before the game our one line before the game was we're not going to let Cory Seager beat us Right that was it. That was the proclamation And okay, so does that mean I backed off Because the basis happened to be loaded right back off right there. I can again. There was easily I could see in four points right there. He was hot Dude when that guy got hot He's one of the best young left-handeders. I've seen it a bit and so anyway, we did that now We did work out necessarily, but we only gave up three runs and not four runs in editing if I remember correctly and Eventually came back and won it and here's the other part about it When you do crazy stuff like that and it you succeed you know what that doesn't a clubhouse I mean the guys absolutely go nuts in a good way. So I'm not looking for attention. I'm not looking for anything other than I'm relying on the years that I spent in the game and my perception my feel In that moment. What's the right thing to do my intuition? What's the right thing to do right here and not run away from it because there's a tough question answer

50:18Were you inspired by book show alter intentionally walking very bonds with the basis loaded in 1998 and Do you remember what then diamondbacks picture Brian Anderson said after that game? I do not but I love B.A. B.A. it took B.A. with me to the race and I think was was it an out right? Was it a basic thread was it an out? I can't remember what happened. I can't remember either The next the next hitter I I wasn't inspired by that. My inspiration managed really a lot of it came from Gene mock Quite frankly and he's another that's when I was with the angels Gene never Went to our one-of-world series, but one of the sharpest Mines I've ever been around along with whitey herzov those two guys to me Were the epitome of a major league baseball manager. I'm so fortunate Because Gene used to give me a lot of latitude. You're talking about empowerment over control and spring trainings Gene had me run the month plays when I because he saw me run him instructionally the year before I like the way I did it so I got the sensei gritchie Rodney Booney and I think Berlia shorts up I'm running

51:22But defense You know, and I I didn't think anything of it because two naive Well the Brian Anderson was the starting pitcher that day And after the game he said of bookshelter that guy has got elephant Titus of the nuts Still one of my favorite quotes of all time And March gonna March gonna close the show with another question. Okay. Go ahead, Mark Well, he's gonna say a statement first. You mentioned Grant Balfour Still need to translation on what he was cussing me out I got him probably more than you don't know me you don't understand Australian That's asking all I could make out was I think he called me a washing machine or something and Alfredo Griffin was Serving as you know trying to make sense of it as well next day Bob Melvin Strangely came up and apologized to me. I know Grant was very very passionate as our nearly every Australian that I've played with So there's just an aside, but

52:24What what's a rule change that They could do right now to make to make baseball more watchable more strategic you've talked about innings limits The three-batter minimum automated strike zones other things What are your thoughts is there one one change in particular that you're passionate about you think would help the game Yes, eliminate a lot of those strategic maneuvers Three-batter minimum get rid of it Bigger bases limiting throwovers get rid of it What's the other one I don't like three-batter minimum run run second base get rid of it don't need them So it would be addition through subtraction get the real game back There was only one rule change that was necessary and it's been proven out and that is the pitch clock and With that the evolution of the pitch-com where pitches are called more quickly because of the little device Those are the only two Changes that were absolutely necessary in baseball the other stuff think about it eliminates strategy And so managerially speaking is kind of been

53:26Subtractive lesson would have managed rest to think about during the course of a game. So that also is part of the appeal to having a less Experience manager in a dugout because there's less for these guys to have to keep track of during the course of a game So get rid of run run second get rid of three-batter minimum Get rid of the big base number of throwovers the first space has nothing to do with anything This has never been about the length of the game. It's always been about the pace of the game So when you start messing with strategy then yeah, you are gonna mitigate minimize the abilities of a manager in a dugout Furthermore to me. Sorry boys. I love the nationally game I grew up in the america league game. I'm telling you right now Um, it's more fascinating. It's more intellectually stimulating and I know double switch whipping trust me get into dugout Get it a dugout when all kinds of get a dugout in a playoff game when you bring an or all this Chapman against the Dodgers It was in the seventh or eighth inning Um, and you move the batting order eight spots in order to make sure that he's gonna be out there the next inning regardless

54:28And what happens you get the bases loaded two outs and here comes or all this to the plate And I think it was like three two or whatever it's not even tied and here comes Miguel Montero Miggy go hit for him knowing that if this doesn't work I don't know if my bullpen can hold up right now whom two striped pitch from Blanton and Blanton was good against left these Blan had that cutter That might have been the loudest home run I ever heard at rigley field. I'm just talking about the actual contact and then of course the explosion from the fans afterwards There's so many more interesting tidbits and that I'm telling listen this plug-and-play kind of stuff is not fascinating to me Uh, the part of the allure of the game has been mitigated by all this and again think about it like I said earlier Analytics provides a safety and effort decision making okay? Because we're always gonna rely on the the pregame math To choreograph the game one reason why the world series was so interesting to a lot of people last year Because a lot of the analytic stuff went boom. It exploded and guys read the guys really had to manage both sides

55:31And it was really fascinating and interesting to watch finally. It wasn't a analytical Created world series analytically created world series so think about all that The best changes you could be would be additions through subtraction We didn't need all those things in the first place. Oh, we need it was the clock and and furthermore I'd like to see a regeneration of the minor leagues I'd like to see the game. I'd like to see more time spent with the nurturing of players by the time they get to the big leagues that they know exactly what to do in handled situations Handle adversity just because a guy hits a couple homers in the minor leagues doesn't mean he's ready I mean, there's a complete game to be played out there that's being absolutely abused and not concerned about How about the how about the Milwaukee Brewers last year ask Murf Murf is outstanding and look with the the blue chase actually played a better game last year too Murf right now as a and I I'd stay in touch with him He does it in a way that I think any real baseball Life or in the real baseball fiction auto could appreciate

56:32That's how it's supposed to look the way the Brewers are doing right now All right, with that we're going to close today's uh show Joe Madden former Halo's manager Always a joy to catch up with you really appreciate your time Please like and subscribe and that's going to do it for us. We'll see you next time on Halo territory part of the foul territory network Start trading crypto on Kraken with just $10 by bitcoin ethereum and over 450 other crypto assets in seconds Kraken has been around for over 14 years and is trusted by millions worldwide Whether you're brand new or looking for a better experience Kraken makes it easy to get started

57:33Download Kraken on the App Store or Google Play that's KRA KEN Not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to US customers excluding New York and Maine through payward Interactive Incorporate You regal the sploters at Kraken.com slash regal slash the sploters terms and conditions apply Discover a spectacular island destination with crystal blue seas endless sunshine and the cool Bahamian breeze Baham are located in nasa Bahamas offers your choice of three luxury hotels Over 45 fine dining and nightlife venues John Batista's all new jazz club the Caribbean's most luxurious casino And one of the kind experiences for the entire family like our 15 acre tropical water park Wildlife sanctuary world-class golf course and so much more visit bahamara.com today There's no championship league for small business owners But if there was You'd be at the top of the standings because going pro with Lenovo pro means you've got the winning formation One-on-one advice IT solutions and customized hardware powered by intel core ultra processors help you stay ahead of the competition

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