Is The Bottom In For Gold? Silver? Bitcoin? | Lawrence Lepard

0:00All right, and we should be live. Welcome to Thoughtful Money. I'm Thoughtful Money founder and your host Adam Taggart welcoming you here for a special live stream with sound money expert Larry LaPard. Lawrence. How are you? Good to see you, buddy? Great. Yeah, I wouldn't say expert. Maybe call me advocate. All right. Sound money advocate, but your reputation precedes you. I'm sure from most viewers. I'm sure a lot of people here have read your book, big print. Excellent book out there. If you haven't read it, folks, you certainly should should run and get it now. So I huge thanks to Larry. I asked him to come with the very little notice to come in and do a live stream with us today. So folks, I've got some questions for him, but then we'll also take as many live Q&A questions from you, the audience is best we can. I'll let you know we get to that section just ask your question the Q&A in the live chat here, and I'll pull it up. All right, so Lawrence, you know, over the past year, the precious metals and Bitcoin, soared to new highs, new all-time record highs, which they are now down from fairly substantially, probably gold is fair the best.

1:11And but both silver and Bitcoin pretty much lost half their value from the peaks. Now interestingly, you know, it's it's been a shorter time period from the peak with the golden silver Bitcoin has fallen from its peak and kind of been languishing for longer, but the question I'm hearing from investors about all three is is the bottom in and we're starting to see in all three. All three of those assets that the recent lows are all behind them and they seem to be bouncing here. The question is, is this the flash in the pan before we go to plum deep and further deaths or do we think the low is actually in and we're setting ourselves up for a nice nice recovery here. I know you're not necessarily like a technical analyst or whatnot, but you follow this space very closely and obviously invest in these assets through your fund. So what is your price outlook? Yeah, so I'll give you and I'm going to hedge myself a little bit as well. So I don't know if the low is in yet. If not, if it's not in, we're close to it. Let's let me put it that way. And I certainly from a sentiment point of view, particularly well in both assets really. I mean, Bitcoin had 126 in October, right?

2:26And it's been as low as 60 on a spike and it's mid high 60s now. So, and I got to tell you the sentiment is just red full, right? I mean, it's everybody's cranky and, you know, there's a lot of negative sentiment in Bitcoin land. The gold people are, you know, it's a much shorter experience because, you know, gold's roaring into the first part of the year and now it's corrected. So even more so. And I really think all three of them would happen here at them. They all just got ahead of themselves. I think as you know, I manage a fund. I have a long term time window. I measure it in years and really five year timeframes. And so I'm very, very comfortable that I'm right about the thesis, you know, over a longer timeframe. On the shorter timeframe, my best answer is, if we're not at the low and they haven't turned around, we're close. And I'm not sure if I, if I didn't have any of them, I certainly wouldn't wait to buy them. But, you know, there's always what I call the correlation of one event, which is the March of 2020 or the, you know, September of 2008 kind of situation where all markets sees up and everybody, you know, there's a global margin call and a demand for cash.

3:37And guess what? Everything gets sold. And in that event, they're all going down. And, you know, Bitcoin could go to 50 or 60. I doubt it will, but it could. You know, gold could easily trace back into the three, three, eight, you know, 3,800. Now Bitcoin or silver, silver broke out at 50. I don't like it's going below 50 again. That's in the mid 70s now. I mean, I think it might have touched the 60s briefly, but. And it could go back there in one of these correlation of one events. Now, so then you get into what are the odds we're going to have one of those and, you know, I don't know. They're not zero because, you know, when you look at all that's going on in the world, some of the bad stuff, you know, the war, et cetera. You know, if really stupid things continue to happen and some stupid things have already happened that looks like we're walking back from those. It could get, you know, it could get worse. And, you know, the book lines outlines and my thesis has always been, you know, all of this correlation that one event would do is it would bring the necessary big print forward and make it faster and bigger.

4:41And we already, I mean, I wrote the book I title at the big print. We don't have a big print yet. We have, you know, what Lynn calls a gradual printer, what I call a little print, which is $40 billion a month times 12 months is 480. That's not trillions like the other two. Last two were, but it's not trivial. And the sense is also using the treasury to effectively kind of not print, but manage the treasury market because he's selling bills to buy the long bonds. And so that's kind of an operation twist to keep the tenure from blowing out. So I don't know. I mean, my base case right now is that, and I, you know, I hate, I don't want to venture too much into political events. But I think when Lindsey Graham says, you know, we should wrap the war up. I think the memo has gone out that I think finally they've convinced, you know, they've gotten themselves convinced, hopefully they have that the ground truth would be an unmitigated disaster. And that as bad as this war has gone for us in a number of different respects, doubling down on it would really be stupid. And so what I'm hoping occurs is that we back away from that.

5:45And I don't think Iran really has an interest in totally croaking the world economy. And I think Iran actually likes getting revenue from their oil sales. I mean, you know, it helps them. Well, it's pretty much the only way they bring in revenue. Right. And so my sense is that, you know, what we're going to maybe trend toward is kind of a messy negotiated thing where is really agrees to stop lobbing missiles. And they agree to stop lobbing missiles. And, you know, US and Israeli boats can't go through the street, but other boats can and they pay a toll. And, you know, we kind of limp forward. But, you know, all the while, meanwhile, the stock market is leaking. And, you know, the private credit thing is real and larger than ever thought at first. And so, you know, at some point in time, something big could break. And if it does, then you got your correlation on one event. I guess what I say to people is, you know, if you're in these assets, you just have to realize how asymmetric they are. And you have to be prepared to have a drawdown. And, but I think most of the drawdown in all three of them has occurred. The power loss supports kind of a lower boundary of, you know, 50, 55, 60 K for Bitcoin, you were there where it's 66.

6:55So, you know, you got 10% downside silver broke out at 50. Sometimes when a market has a big market that's pressed for a number of years as a breakout, I'll go back and retest that number. And so, it's at 70. Maybe if you go to 50 briefly, you know, gold is could could clearly come back in. But, you know, I think everybody's got to have their eye on the longer term prize, which is, you know, the $39 trillion of debt, you know, deficits running at two trillion and I had a chart. It's looked at a chart that showed that, you know, if things get worse this year, they're going to clearly be much more than two because the war is expensive. You know, there's no way they're going to get by without printing the money. It's just math. So, and when that becomes apparent, you know, then these things are going to really catch wind in their sales again. And I didn't, you know, there are a lot of people calling for $200 silver, I believe it. I mean, I, I believe $67,000 gold, I believe $200,000 Bitcoin, but I can't say when, and you know, if I did tell you when you should trust me, because, you know, nobody really knows exactly when.

8:00Right. But I think we can kind of look at it and and and handicapped the odds and the odds are it's common. We just don't want. Okay. So, so your big print thesis hasn't changed at all. Yeah. So, your confidence net is still still unshaken. All right. Just to try to stay in the near term. And I'm not asking you to make price predictions here in terms of X dollars by when. But let's just go through each asset. And I'd love to get a sense for what you see as the biggest drivers of price action in each. So, like, for example, well, obviously for golden sober of late, you know, they had vertical runs, right. Those things can't last. We all, you know, those of us who've been in the industry for a long time, we were all warning people. When, you know, silver punch through. I got incredibly lopsided. I mean, both sentiment on silver gold miners, all it was 100%. Interestingly, I get a, I get Hilbert sentiment digest sent to me every day. It's a service I pay for. Right now, the sentiment on gold prices is negative, which is pretty rare.

9:05I mean, it kind of generally ranges between zero and 100 positive. And right now it's running like 17% negative. So that's impressive that gold still at 4700. Well, that's my point. Right. I mean, it's like, it's kind of like we've shaken out the tourists and people are pretty scared. And I talked to, you know, the best analysts on gold or the people who most people follow on gold, the gold mining analysts in Toronto. And a lot of them, they're starting to build their models with lower numbers again. And that just tells you that they're thinking, you know, these numbers aren't going to hold. And that, you know, I take the other side of that bet. And particularly when we're going to talk about opportunities, maybe later in this conversation, the silver miners are just, it's unbelievable. I mean, the, you know, they, I mean, silver went up a lot, right? It went from low 30s, the beginning last year to 120 briefly and 70 something now. And most of these companies, they spent about $25 pulling out of the ground. So in the low 30s, they're making $10 now. Well, at 70, suddenly they're making $50 now. You know, and that's a 5x increase. And yet I can assure you that most silver stocks have not grown up 5x.

10:08Right. So the profits have gone up 5x. The stocks haven't gone up 5x. Why? Because people don't think the silver price can last. Right. They don't believe it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, so it is to my point that that, that froth had to come out. Right. So I don't think we're shocked about that. But that's been driving the short term price action right as the mandatory froth removal. But with gold, you know, we're seeing reports, you know, so central banks have been big marginal buyers of gold of the past bunch of years. But now we're seeing central banks like the central bank of Turkey. Unloading their gold or at least it's into unloading, but but but selling their gold and that that that that's to have to deal with the higher oil prices. It's trying to keep a lid on their currencies. So my question is, is is is this short term stuff that sort of related to the oil price shock and stuff related to the war that that should should revert or just a new trend. No, I think I really do think it's short term, but it's interesting. Russia has sold some gold, but that's because, you know, they're they're getting paid in you want for all the oil sell to China.

11:17And they can only use so much you want to buy Chinese goods with them. Maybe they convert some into gold over there. I'm not reporting it, but selling gold because they need rubles in order to, you know, to pay their salaries of, you know, their military and so forth. Yeah, the other thing I've heard and we talked to my partner and I were talking to get from Dubai recently. I mean, so you're in the Middle East, you own a bunch of gold and you decide you want to get out of there for all the obvious reasons and gold is effectively cash. What do you do? You can't wire transfer your gold from the Middle East to somewhere else, but you can sell it and the cash you get, you can wire that out or you can put it in a Bitcoin and move it on the blockchain. So there've been some selling pressures and things like that, but I think I think the underlying trend in, you know, money that can't be printed gold silver Bitcoin is up into the right. I mean, I just I strongly believe that, but I just think we're in one of those periods where we're having a natural check back and, you know, it's bull markets trying to throw off as many riders as possible. Right. Well, and I'm wondering too if there isn't you sort of started your answer by saying, well, look, if there's a big, you have the S&P tanks from here, there's going to be a brief period where all correlations go to one and everything's going to get sold because I margin calls and stuff like that.

12:31There may be there may be kind of a global margin call going on right now with the price of oil, right, where it's like, I got to buy oil. So I got to sell stuff to buy it. And then the S&P, while it's not tanking, you know, it's down seven, eight percent since it's leaking. It's leaking. And therefore some people might be getting, you know, a margin call. It's not extreme, but some right. Yeah, I mean, it's it's the market's traditionally always week around this time. You got to remember, you know, everybody's going to have to write a tax check in a couple of weeks. And so that always tends to have some people selling stocks because they've got, you know, raised cash to pay their tax bill in the United States anyway. So yeah, look, to me, this is just part of the up down cycle in this area. And it really, it actually represents kind of an opportunity, you know, for people who weren't invested in these assets and watch them take off. And kind of, I had friends saying, oh, I've got Bitcoin 125. I missed it or gold at 5,000. I missed it.

13:33And of course, the ironic thing is I call them, I said, hey, you know what you got, you got an opportunity here. You know, gold's down substantially. Bitcoin's down half 50%. Why don't you come after it and they're kind of, no, I don't know. I don't want to catch a falling knife. Yeah. I don't want to catch a falling knife. Where's the bottom? You know, look, I don't know where the bottom is. Nobody does. I mean, you can't. But, you know, I mean, I kind of evaluate risk and reward. And I look for asymmetry and I'm very, very convinced that they're asymmetrically. There's a lot more upside and all three of these things and there is downside. I mean, could they all go down another, they can all get on another 10% tomorrow. They can all go down probably 30% in a correlation of one event. But, you know, they also have the potential to double or triple when Kevin Wars becomes, you know, Fed Chairman in a little over a month and a half. And, you know, I don't think he got that job by, you know, saying he's going to do hockey stuff. I mean, I, I think my sense, this is just a guess. I have no knowledge, no insider knowledge whatsoever. But knowing how things work down there, my sense is they're crafting something in their back pocket.

14:35It's going to look like a big print that's going to involve a lot of money creation. Now, you know, maybe it'll be done by the banks through some special lending program where they'll let the banks. You know, by, you know, they'll lend money to the banks for at a lower rate in order to buy bonds specifically and hold them for a fixed period of time. I mean, they'll have a new term for it, right? I mean, the, you know, the most recent one is not QE, right? It's right. Whatever you call it, it's not QE. But you and I both, I mean, when you look through it at the end of the day, they'll be putting more money into the system because mathematically they have to add them. That's the thing. I mean, I just, you know, look, I'm not smart enough to know what all the moves are going to be, but I can look at the math pretty clearly and I can see the problem. And, you know, how does this get resolved? I mean, I mean, there is another, there is another choice they could let everything collapse. You know, they could, they could let it be in 1929, but you really think that at the end of the day forced, you know, faced with that, they're going to do it and they're not going to print. I mean, I don't. But any sitting politician or central planner, like they have to under watch now.

15:35No, they just can't. So, so it's, to me, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's an interesting trade because you can be very highly confident you're right, but you've got to be patient. Right. Right. And to be honest, guys like you and I have been in the sound money trade. Oh, yeah. But now, you know, now it's, it's kind of events are kind of proving us generally right, but you know, the slope of the curve, the timing of the events, all that stuff, it's hard to know. It's very hard to know. Okay. So I do want to ask you about the Fed under worse, but just let me, let me go through the other thing, the other two assets. So silver, you know, much more speculative, but it also has much more commercial use. I talked to Andy Scheckman frequently on this program. Not sure how well you might know him, but yeah, a lot of his great, great guy, right. And super, you know, he's there in the trenches. Right. He's, he's there watching ounces move all the time. And he remains gobsmacked by the amount of flows of, of silver, both coming into the comics from the LBMA.

16:48But also that's been then getting removed from the comics, because people are standing for delivery. Right. It's highest levels of his multi-deck career. London too, same story. I mean, the London exchange is out of, you know, European fumes, right. Yeah. And so in a lot of these cases, he's like, like, I'm trying to think who can take delivery of that many ounces and store them. It transport and store them that that's, that's not like a state actor, right. It's not like a sovereign nation, right. So clearly, there's still a ton of, and it hasn't diminished with, with silver coming down from 120 to 60 something that those flows have not diminished. And so I guess the question is, is near my, you know, what's going to, what's going to give here? Is it going to be the demand is going to level off because silver is now stuck at a lower price? Or, you know, silver's eventually going to have to react to say, look, the stores are almost, I mean, they're not quite drained yet. I don't want to be hyperbolic about it. But there is so much more silver being taken out of the exchanges that.

17:52I think with a lot of the others, you know, there are a lot of great monetary analysts and people digging into all those flows very careful. And I follow all of them. You know, I think at the end of the day, the paper market is collapsing and it's going to come down to being a physical market. And you can't print silver. And so, you know, the price discovery is just going to lead to higher prices. I mean, we've already seen, you know, a real gap between the prices in the, in the West, the US and the prices in China. And, you know, it's getting used heavily in China. That's the thing. I mean, the thing about silver, it's really neat the way it's kind of a dual use metal. I mean, one, it's got this monetary property being scarce and being kind of a cheaper form of sound money than gold. But it also gets used in solar, particularly. And, you know, the current estimates are that, you know, China in a few years will absorb 50% of the annual silver supply. And we also know from all this looking at the statistics that they've been running a silver deficit, you know, for three, four years at least in terms of we've been, you know, more silver has been used in industry than or mining.

18:56And so, you know, eventually that's got to give. And I think that's what initially broke us out of the 50 dollar price cap, which had been in place for a long time. Well, really forever. We never got about 50 and had barely ever been added to just. Yeah, right. We only had it briefly. We ran it with the hunts and then we were at it in 2011. And so, you know, you've got an enormously long base of silver prices under 50. We broke through it. You know, typically anyone who studies commodities and commodity trading patterns knows that, you know, when you break through up, you know, a 50 year ceiling, you know, you don't just go up 50% which is what we are now or at 75 up 50% from the 50. You know, I mean, you go up multiples of the ceiling he broke through. So I, you know, and the silver to gold ratio has been coming down and it could go down a lot further. You know, for much of history, silver to silver to gold ratio is about 15%. So, or I mean, 15x. So, you know, and that by the way is geologically what's going on in the world. I mean, we mine about 15 ounces of silver for every one ounce of gold.

19:59And so, you know, silver can easily be and has in the past been 3% of the price of gold. So, golds at 5,000 silver should be at 150 or 75. You know, I think golds go into 6 or 7,000 to 3% of that is, you know, 180. And, you know, there were on peaks, you know, silver has been 6% the price of gold. That's closer to the 15 ratio. So, you know, six times, you know, say $7,000 gold. That's $400 silver. All those numbers are a long ways away. And here's the thing. Here's the investment implication of that that I'm just so excited about with my fund. And I want to tell people to focus on is these silver miners just still do not reflect that. I mean, go to Tavi Costa's thread on Twitter and look at the silver miner to the silver price chart. You might have to scroll back a few days or weeks to find it. But it's there. And what you'll see is that the miners just have not responded. So, these miners are going to just, if the miners, I know what's going on, people who own the mining stocks are thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah, broke out about 50, but it's coming back to 50. And yeah, they'll make money, but not that much.

21:08Well, I disagree. It's going to 150 or 200. And at that point, they're going to make so much money, you know, it's going to be amazing. And so these stocks have a long way to go to catch up. I've seen and heard from many folks that just interviewed a rule about it from a conference a week ago, saying echoing what you just said. In particular, the royalty companies and streamers look particularly attractive here because they have. They're immune from all these things like higher oil prices and stuff like that, right? It's interesting. You know, one of the arguments is, well, yeah, now we got higher priced oil. And so the miners' profit margins are going to get compressed. Well, in the past oil was, you know, 6% or 7% of the value of silver. And now it's like 2% of the value of silver. And so, you know, I can go up a fair amount without really impacting these margins. So that's, it's just not something I worry about that much.

22:10But yeah, to me, it's just a, it's a big, it's a big fat opportunity staring in the face. And, you know, and I mean, you can just play it with the indecision by SIL or by SILJ or just 2 ETFs, the own silver miners, but they're within those. They're much the smaller companies, better companies, you can pick names and, you know, and in your fund, is that what you're doing? Yeah, I'm picking the name. I mean, you know, I mean, I'll just, I'll mention one that I love. I bought recently, there was a Veno, a Veno silver. You know, I mean, and this is a stock, I'll show you a chart of it. I mean, this, so a Veno, and it wasn't, by the way, it wasn't overvalued, but a Veno, you know, is $12, two months ago, and it's at $6 right now, right? I mean, it's, it's back to the price that, it's back to the price that it was at in December, and then, you know, December, silver was lower price than it is now. So, you know, if you assume, if you assume that I'm right about so higher silver prices, these stocks are badly mispriced. Yeah, it may be a better way to say it is if you were one of those people sitting on the sidelines when silver started to go parabolic.

23:15And you said, man, I should have been on this train, but I don't want to get on it now, because it's, it's probably every price. Here's the train just came back to your patients. You just got a second chance. And yet hard part is, you know, the sentiment is like, no, I don't know, it's just down 50%. Maybe it's going down even more. I mean, I, I had a friend who, a very wealthy friend who I convinced to take a 5% allocation in Bitcoin last year, and he was buying it at 110, 120. And, you know, he didn't get to his whole 5% because he was dollar cost averaging, which is smart. And he called me a month ago, and he said, shit, you know, I'm only about halfway there, but it's down to 65. Should I keep going? And I was like, dude, it's on sale. You know, I mean, when, you know, you go to the supermarket, the filet is normally 30 bucks. I was selling it for 15. Unless it's rancid, you buy it, right? And that's, you know, I don't think Bitcoin's rancid. So to me, Bitcoin, I mean, you know, if you look at kind of asymmetry right now, you know, and you look at the gold, you look at the gold to Bitcoin, right? So Bitcoin is cheaper than gold right now on a relative basis.

24:15And so, you know, actually, at the end of the last year, I was selling some gold related things and buying some Bitcoin related things. Okay. So I want to get to Bitcoin just a second about price drivers, but one thing I want to note just about your approach is, yes. And, and folks, Lycric rule have long said, hey, look, if you're, if you're not well experienced in this space, there's plenty of opportunity just in the beta of the sector. So just own the ETFs and let the beta do your work for your school or you don't need to pick individual names. And by the way, if you do, you don't face. Yeah, it's so two things. There's two sides of this one is, look folks, commodities are volatile in general, precious metals, certainly silver very much so. And the miners are volatile and steroids. So you've got to, you got to know what you're getting into here. But the benefit of doing what you're doing, Larry, if you, if you are, you know, intelligent about it. And by intelligent, I mean, you have really researched these companies, you understand the sector, all that stuff, which, frankly, a lot of individual investors don't.

25:20You either want to become that educated yourself or you want to hit your wagon to somebody who is and there are people out there who, you know, their entire career is just following the sector and going out and doing mind visits and they know the management. But the benefit of doing what Larry's doing, it's kind of the Warren Buffett approach, which is you can own SIL or SILJ, but you own all the companies in the sector. And especially in this sector, there are a ton of dogs. So you own the diamonds as well as the dogs, where if you are smart enough and disciplined enough to really build a portfolio of the best of the best, well, then you're going to outperform because you've gotten rid of a huge chunk of the dog risk. Correct, correct. But, you know, even then, it's, I mean, it's none of us ever really know absolutely Adam. I mean, I have companies I think are, you know, diamonds and the dogs. It's a tough sector. I mean, you know, it's a rough game. I mean, but, you know, I will say that it's much better to be buying when the sentiment is the way the sentiment is today.

26:28I mean, I think a lot of these stocks will double or triple. And so, you know, you can do what a lot of people in this resource sector do with these things being so volatile is, you know, they buy them. And then when they double, they sell half and take the bait back and then they're playing with house money. Right. It's not, it's not a bad strategy. A lot of people do it and I understand it makes sense. Because I, you know, I think, I mean, I only, I mean, I will say this, any stock I buy, if I don't think it'll at least triple, I'm not even going to touch it. That's how volatile these things are. Now, it also means a good on 50% too. Right. Right. Yeah, remember that volatility cuts both ways. So, Larry, I'm curious, in your fund right now, are you fully allocated? We are. We don't have much cash. We're not on margin, although we're thinking of getting there. We're, we have the ability to go on margin. We never go heavily margin. Maybe we'll do 10%, 15% on margin. And we do that. We do that when we see something as a screaming by. And the reason we're not margin is that possibility of the correlation of one event.

27:33So, and I, you know, just to put odds on it, I kind of rate it as 80% we're going to just kind of muddle through and go higher and not have that correlation one event. The Fed's going to print. It's not going to maybe be quite as big a print as I thought, but it's going to be big enough to keep driving all this stuff higher. That's my base case. My 20% case is something breaks. You know, we put boots on the ground, stock market tanks, private credit blows up. Who knows? Someone known thing. Yeah, you have a correlation of one of that. Okay. But if you don't support your print thesis. Yeah. And then they print like crazy. And if that happens, I want to have some margin capability to buy something. And we will, we'll be buying both fists at that time. Okay. All right. Well, let me know when you let me just on you. You'll know it'll be obvious. And by the way, you won't feel like buying because I remember. I remember March of 2020 like it was yesterday. And I just been blown out of my short. I was stupid. I'll tell the story. I owned a bunch of silver. I took.

28:37I took delivery of a bunch of silver contracts off the comics in the 80s. I put them in the trunk of my car. You told me you had the comics bars that I had those in a depository and stupid me. I could borrow against them because rates were low. I could borrow against them at like 3%. I thought, well, that's smart. I'll do that. And so, you know, I took out, you know, 60, 70% of my equity of all those bars and went and invested in other stuff. And then March of 2020 hit and silver went from 21 to 11 and three days. And I got a call that said, if you don't send X amount of money here in the next 24 hours, we're going to blow you out. And so I, I'm very quickly figured out how to get that money because I didn't want to sell my silver $11. So, and that was a, it was a very good lesson for me about the dangers of using margin. And so I've told Bitcoiners and I've told all people in the space of that story. A number of times is a cautionary tale to counter some of the Michael Seller enthusiasm of.

29:40Yeah, I think we had a second mortgage on your house. Yeah, yeah, no, no, March, look, these, these assets are extremely asymmetric. And if we're right, you're going to make a lot of money in these things. I mean, much more than 20 or 30% a year. And as you, as most of us who are investing world know, if you can compounded anything north of 10 or 12% a year over a bunch of time, you get really crazy rich. So, you know, you don't need to use leverage to have this stuff work. Right. Right. Again, that goes back to, I mean, you can, you can just play the safe beta play. With no margin and still probably do pretty well. You do fine. If you do fine, if, if we're right about the thesis, I mean, to just, you know, word of caution and everyone laughs when I say this, but, you know, I'll have a new investor thinking to come into my fund. And then for smartness say what could go wrong? And I'll say, well, I'll tell you go wrong. The government gets incredibly responsible and balances the budget. Right. And of course, they laugh and I laugh too. And we all know that doesn't seem very likely today, but stranger shits happen. So, if I see things going in that direction, then this thesis won't be as good a thesis. But right now, I'm with Lynn, I don't think anything stops us trained.

30:50And I think most people are with you on that one Larry. It seems like a high probability, doesn't it? So many people betting on polymarket, you know, that we're going to have a balanced budget next year. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. All right. So you mentioned him briefly, but well, actually first before I get to Kevin, more specifically. I was thinking of you when I was watching the clip of Jerome Powell being interviewed recently. Well, I mean, it just seems kind of the height of hypocrisy, at least to me. And you might think differently. But to be sitting here, basically, you know, all of a sudden delivering a loud warning about America's insolvency from its, it's, you know, exponential debt problem. And it's like, I don't disagree with that conclusion at all, but you were like the chief enabler over the past seven years. Yeah. Yeah. It's like drug, you know, drug dealer, you know, warns addicts of drug use. I mean, come on, dude. I mean, you know, here, you know, in 2019, you took, you know, you turned on a dime, you pile pivoted, you took rates to zero.

31:52I mean, you totally enabled us. Then COVID came, you all panicked and, you know, over the silly flu and you printed five trillion dollars in, you know, nine months. I mean, come on. Give me a break. I mean, it's all these, but he's just trying to scrub his legacy. I mean, there was a more recent one today. I think I retweeted it. Maybe it was yesterday, you know, Warren Buffett's out there saying that, you know, yeah, he preferred to have zero inflation. Well, you know, why weren't you talking about that when you were, you know, younger and you were saying the gold standard suck. I mean, you know, he benefits from this money printing always has. And so now he's older and retired, you know, retired. And, you know, I mean, look, we've got the receipts. You know, we know what these people did. And you can't, you can't now come and come around and say, well, I'm a sound money advocate one for all these years. You played the system in the other direction. So, yeah, I got no use for Paul. I'm, you know, I'm just, and I kind of frustrated. I was hoping he wouldn't get out of here without his reputation, getting damaged, but it looks like he will. Unless, unless we have a, you know, unless we have a correlation of one event in the next, what is it?

32:54It's six weeks. He's going to escape. So that's a, it doesn't seem like karma to me, but so be it. Well, and it's not unprecedented. I mean, Ellen Greenspan, you know, huge gold advocate, but until he became fed chair, then of course, he wasn't and then Apple. Because he told Brian London, you know, it's, it's intoxicating, you know, controlling the money supply for the world. It's an intoxicating position. That's great. I'm glad they feel good about it because the rest of us suffer for it. So it is what it is. It is what it is. Well, okay. So we're going to hopefully have a new head at the moment, Kevin Worsh, provided he gets now, he gets confirmed and all that stuff, which I think he will be. What, what are your thoughts about what Kevin Worsh? Yeah, I don't, I don't think he's as hawkish as they say. And I think I said on other pods. I think they had to have somebody who they thought they could sell as being hawkish to do a really dovish move.

33:54Just like you never could have had George Montgomery go open up China because, you know, it was a liberal. You had to have a hard ass like Nixon and kissing to go to China. And so I think, but I don't think he would have gotten chosen for the job. If he hadn't basically made a few promises about where he wants to go with all this. And, and therefore, and I don't think, you know, as much as I think these people are sneaky, I don't think they're stupid. And so, you know, like I say, I'm pretty sure what's going on is they've got something cooked up. And that's why people say, well, one could all this, one could these assets start to really perform. I mean, we might only have to wait six weeks because my sense is he'll get sworn in on next Fed meeting after that. I think it's in June, but my sense is he won't necessarily wait until the meeting. If they've got a plan in their back pocket, which they intend to implement. And I'm guessing they probably do, you know, they're going to make an argument that AI and productivity is, you know, even though inflation is printing high, it's all temporary because it's just the war and oil and all that stuff. And therefore, we really need to cut fence funds rates very aggressively.

34:57And we need to take it, you know, from where it is today, we need to take it on at least 100 basis points, maybe 200 basis points. And, you know, and by the way, if the long bond doesn't respond well to that, they have a program in the back pocket for that too. That's really yield curve control, but they'll rebrand it and, you know, hide it. It's meant for something else. Interestingly, the worst is said that he would much rather rely on rates than printing. He has been vocal saying, look, we do need to shrink this balance sheet. Yeah, and even Moran published a paper on that recently, and I, that's all, that's all well and good until, as Tyson said, until they get punched in the face. Okay, so take the rates down. Great. So now the 10 year goes to five on its way to six. You know, or maybe, maybe it doesn't, but I think it does. But, you know, they can control the fed funds rate in the short end. And once they take that down, you know, I got to believe the longer end does not react positively to that.

36:00And so that, and that becomes a problem. Unless, you know, as the lazy hunts of the world think, this oil price shock, while it might be inflationary in the immediate term, is actually going to hasten a deflationary decline of the economy, right, with demand destruction. Yeah, no question. And, and, and that's, and they might. The Middle East, you know, oil will go back down to where it was and the inflation won't be printing so high and, and so on and so forth. But I think, I think at the end of the day, the bond markets have told us that, you know, and, and, and really the price of gold silver and Bitcoin have told us. You know, forget the recent pullback at them. I mean, go back a year or two. I mean, these all these markets are up enormously. I mean, you know, gold was $3,000, $2,000, not about a couple of years ago. And silver was under 50 Bitcoin, you know, Bitcoin 43 years ago in 2022 was 15.

37:04You know, and everyone complains, well, Bitcoin really sucks at 65. Well, not if you bought it at 15. I mean, it does. If you bought it at 125, but I guess the point is that these markets are telling us that faith and the currency is being lost. Oh, and by the way, you know, losing a war in the Middle East isn't exactly going to help, you know, faith in this currency. I mean, part of the part of the faith in the US assets, US dollars, US everything was the fact that we were supposed to be guaranteeing security for the Gulf. And we had the strongest, the best military in the world. And, you know, sadly, it seems like that, you know, that belief is getting punctured. So, you know, you, you look at that. And I just, I'm not a bowl on, on where the dollar is going compared to sound forms of money. Okay. All right. And I do want to ask you about the implications of the war real quick folks watching, let me get a little bit of time left. And if you've got any questions for Larry, ask them in the live chat there. And I'll pull them in as we have time.

38:05So, you know, on that point, Larry, I'm curious what you think the impact of the war is going to be, you know, over the next year here in America is in, let me, let me give you two options. And you can obviously pick, pick those two or any, any other like one, it could just mean a lot more debt, right? We got to increase military spending and we've got to rebuild all the armaments that we just blew up and, and the rest of the world doesn't even wants to buy our treasuries less now. And the dollar weekends, as you just said, is it more that or is it more, hey, and it doesn't sound like you think this way, but just to put the other argument out there. Hey, we just made the world a safer place, right? Arana's is vastly diminished from what it was before. We're out of there. And now all the tailwinds that were beginning at the beginning of the year in terms of stronger economic growth. You know, the benefits of deregulation, the tax cuts, the tariff revenues, everything like that.

39:10That's going to really let the economic growth really start to flourish here. Well, I mean, I can see both sides of that argument. And I think, I think the right answer is probably to split the baby. It's somewhere in the middle. I mean, you know, wars are expensive. And wars are going to create, you know, create a lot of dislocations in the energy market that will get repaired, but not overnight. I mean, the damage to the LNG physiology is not great. I mean, inflation in Europe is going to be high as a result of that. You know, you've got the cracks in private credit, which I think, you know, aren't good and might ultimately drag the market down. I don't know Adam. I really, I don't know how to hand you cap because there's just so many damn moving pieces. I really don't. I do know, I do strongly believe, though, and I think they'll back away from it. My base cases are going to back away from it. I think I strongly believe that if they make the mistake of putting boots on the ground, you know, that that's going to really, that's not going to be good in any level for safety of our soldiers, you know, peace, et cetera, et cetera.

40:22I mean, the whole notion of escalation. And I mean, there's a whole camp that says that, you know, they're going to just keep escalating because, you know, they get pictures of Trump and they can blackmail him. I mean, who they don't know. I don't know if that's true. You know, but the point is, I mean, I mean, I think most intelligent analysts would say that escalation does not make sense that, you know, it's not, this is not a ground where we want to be fighting. This is not a war that we can really win. And that the smartest thing we could do would be just to step back from it and declare victory, whether we've achieved it or not. That's a debatable point. And I try and hope that's what happens because I hate war and I hate death. And I think whole thing is just tragic and stupid. But, but setting out aside, you know, it's hard to say. It's really hard to say. I mean, I think we will continue to limp forward as a nation. There are a lot of good things going on here. AI is helping in a lot of respects. It will add to productivity, et cetera. Let me just interject with this. Let's say the war didn't happen. Yeah, right. How bullish were you coming into this year?

41:25I was reasonably bullish, actually. I was reasonably bullish. I mean, I've always had in the back of my mind the belief that the bond and stock market are fake and that the prices there are fake because of the fiat currency. I mean, I mean, they exist at that level just because of the fiat currency and what I call quote unquote the fed put that, you know, they're just not going to let me go down period. That's, you know, now, you know, and that's, that's okay. That's one way to run things. But the cost of that is inflation. That's what my whole thesis is built upon. So I would say I was moderately bullish that, you know, things would kind of keep on going because they would just keep on printing the money. Now, the problem is, and I don't, we don't have the chart here, but search some of my more recent podcasts with other people, you can see a chart that kind of shows the growth of the money supply versus the growth of the debt. And, you know, what happened with the chart shows is that when the, when the money supply doesn't, when the debt gets too large relative to the money supply of print has to occur. And so you saw, you saw it happen in 08 and you saw it happen in 2020 and the two lines across right now in 2025 in the same way that they did those last two times.

42:41And that's why I kind of say mathematically, you know, just, I mean, I think this little print is 40 billion a month. That's not going to get it done. It's going to have to get bigger than that. And so I do feel, you know, I wrote the book and I put my neck out on the line saying this thing's going to happen. I'm pretty sure it will. I kind of hope it happens within five years, so I don't look like a complete idiot. I'm pretty sure it will. Yeah, which is going to be conflicting, right? Because you don't want like a bonfire, the currency to happen. Yeah, no, it was no part of me that wants to see people suffer or wants to see things going in bad direction. I mean, you know, I mean, some people say, you're, you're, you know, you're a boomer and you're a doomer. No, I'm not. I'm very optimistic about people, the world of condition, technology, all the great stuff that's coming. But, but I'm realistic about, you know, the system as it currently is and how broken it is. And until we reform it and we go back to sound money, you know, this is going to be a recurring problem where the debt grows. I mean, we just crossed 39 trillion of US debt and the interest expense is over a trillion a year.

43:49This cannot be paid for without creating a lot more money. That's just a fact. That's math. So, you know, I've just been radically boosting economic growth, but yeah, so, so I mean, did I think the Dow would go up? Yeah, probably will. Why not? Did I think the bond market would hold together? Sure, it probably will. They're printing the money to hold it together. But guess what? I also think inflation is going to continue to rage. I mean, and I've said this another podcast. I really strongly believe this. The mistake, I think a lot of people are now making is that they most people today pay more to ages. You've lived almost exclusively in a 40 year deflationary trend from 1980 to 1920. That's 40 years of deflation. And we're not in that world anymore. You know, COVID blew that world apart and we now live in an inflationary world full stop until we return to sound money. So, and that's, and so, you know, yeah, I'll keep going up, but so will inflation.

44:51That's, I guess that's my point. Okay. And, you know, in that world, nominally, stocks will still go up. But, but to your point about, you know, the thesis of your big print, you're better observed in things that. I think inflation, I think inflation protected things will exceed the amount of appreciation and stocks. You know, the mag seven are already starting to leak. I mean, you know, the gold stocks are a lot. I mean, not the brag, but I mean, factually, my fund was up 175% last year. I mean, that kind of beat the market, right? So, you know, it's like, yeah, I think this stuff is going to do better than that other stuff. And if you look at, you know, good way to look is, let's look at the 70s, Adam. In the 70s, the two best, and this is how I got out of this trade, you know, when 2008 occurred, they started printing money like crazy. And I said to myself, good God, and I had some money saved up because I like you, we were both in the dot com thing and we made some money on that. And so, I said, okay, I got this money, but I don't want it to, you know, I'm young enough that it's kind of last a long time.

45:55And I looked at this, you know, QE came along and I said, what the printing money and zero interest say, why you can't do that. So, I said, all right, we're going to inflation. So, I studied inflation. I went and looked at the 70s. And if you look at the 70s, the stock market was basically flat for 10 years. And the two areas that performed the best were gold stocks and oil stocks. They compounded it close to 30% a year, both those categories because of the inflation in the 70s. And then Volker came in and he solved it. And he was able to solve it because he took rates of 20% and debt to GDP was 35% and so he could solve it. But, you know, as you now know, debt to GDP is 125%. We can't take rates of 20% or everybody would go bankrupt. And so, you know, there isn't a solution until we stop printing money or return to sound money. And so, to me, it's kind of an obvious thing. But I think, I think most investors, I mean, I was at a, you know, I was at a men's coffee earlier this week with a lot of guys my age who are quite well to do. And they're all just like, yeah, it's all great. We're doing great. We love it. You know, it's just party on, you know, buy stocks and you're in good shape.

46:58And I just, I'm, I count me in as a skeptic. All right. All right. We've only gotten one question. So I'll ask it and then we'll start wrapping things up. I'm not sure what answer you have to this Larry, other than buy gold sober and Bitcoin. What can you do in Europe to protect yourself from the inflation to come? That's a great question. And sadly, I think Europe's going to get hurt more than other areas. I mean, I do think you're, you answered it for me. I mean, to the degree that you have savings, I mean, one get out of Europe, the probably cheaper places in the world to live. And, you know, the policies there have been so stupid. I mean, how about Germany getting rid of all their nuclear power? I mean, what do these people thinking? And we haven't helped. We blew up Nord Stream. That didn't help. You know, if you have savings, I think you just have to save the sound money. I really do. And so I think that, you know, a portfolio that includes, you know, silver gold, silver gold miners, Bitcoin, you know, micro strategy, oil stocks, you know, commodity related things, things that will protect you from inflation.

48:02I think that's, that's, to my way of seeing it, that's kind of the no brainer move for somebody who's not, you know, in the investment world full time. I also think, by the way, that some of the US market has really dominated the world markets. And I found some very interesting ETFs in foreign markets like, I think Brazil, which is a huge commodity producer. It's very undervalid. And Tavi Costas and a lot of great work. And then I read all his stuff. I highly recommend him as a follow up. And so I own Petrobras. I own the Brazil ETF and, you know, Singapore same thing. I mean, there are other places you can invest outside the United States, which I think will be better than the US. Okay. And is that Brazil ETF EWZ? It is. Yeah. That's the one. Yeah. And Petrobras has done very well this year. Yeah. Okay. So let's see here. We've gotten a few more questions that just got used in here. How would you step into this market if you were in a 100% cash right now? That's a great question. That's a great question.

49:02Well, it's, I guess the first question will be, do you need any of that cash in the next five years? If you have a five year window, because if you have a five year window, I'd be fairly aggressive. It's probably deploying half of it right now into, you know, physical gold, physical silver, gold mining stocks, silver stocks, Bitcoin and micro strategy. I just start off right now and just do it, get half of it into that. Then with the other half, I'd probably dollar cost average over the next year or so. And I'd have a dry powder in case that 20% correlation of one event occurs. I mean, if you put 100% in now and that correlation of one event occurs, you're going to have a very tight sphincter, you know, riding that out. It's not going to be any fun. And I think it's important. It's really important. I've always told us to Bitcoiners when they buy the first Bitcoin. They say, how much should I buy? I say, well, you should buy the amount where if it goes down 50%, you're thinking yourself,

50:03this is great. I can, I can average down versus, oh, my God, I made a mistake. Yeah. Because Bitcoin is the kind of asset that goes up and down 50% a lot. So. For a guy like this, and let me preface with this by saying what Larry's offering is not specific. Yeah. Yeah, example. I'll give some instruction to folks that want to get specific advice in just a sec. But to somebody like this who's starting from scratch. How would you recommend they get into Bitcoin? You know, is it you got to buy the coins themselves and put it on a cold wallet? Just don't know just any. Yeah. So that's a great question. And that's always, you know, that that's the ultimate form of Bitcoin ownership because the government can't take it away from you. They don't necessarily know you have it. This is the cold wallet version. But let's be realistic. That's not appropriate for a lot of people. It takes a certain amount of knowledge and learning and help and everything else.

51:05And I think in many cases, the best first step is just to buy one of the ETFs. I mean, the two largest for the fidelity one, FBTC and the BlackRock one, IBIT. Personally, I know the fidelity people. I like them. I trust them. You know, I have some IRA accounts that I can't really take out and use for cold storage. So I, you know, I own FBTC and those IRA accounts. And so I think that's a good way to start. But I think then you, you know, you start educating yourself and read the books. You, you know, you, you get yourself an account at strike or at river. I mean, those are the two preferred brokers. Strike is the best kind of retail broker that will allow you to buy things in Bitcoin using the, you know, the lightning network. I was at this meeting and one of the guys said, well, yeah, Bitcoin's great, but you can't transact it. And I said bullshit. And I quickly had him download a wallet. And I said, I'm a dollar, you know, on a cost of penny to do it. I mean, you know, lightning makes Bitcoin super easy to use and for transactions. River is a more high. It's a concierge service that'll help you buy Bitcoin store for you.

52:06And they'll teach you how to do the cold storage. So those are my two preferred sources, but I'm a customer of both. I like the teams of both. But yeah, you know, I think you just, you just get some exposure to it. And again, you know, it's volatile. So, you know, buy an amount. I mean, even 5% is going to make a difference because I think it's going to go up 10X and then 10X again. I mean, we're talking over, you know, a decade or so. But, you know, but get some exposure to it because you really don't want to have zero exposure to something with this kind of asymmetric, you know, profile and this kind of optionality. I mean, if you put 5% of your net worth in here in Bitcoin fails, you lose 5%. But if you don't put 5% in and this thing goes up 10X, which I think it will, you know, you're going to regress it. You didn't, you know, you didn't have your portfolio could have been Bitcoin. So out of 5% that. Okay. All right. Last question here is along the dark side. You don't, you don't need to give more than just a quick answer because we could probably make a whole podcast on this.

53:08How much longer until the majority rebels comes after the top one? That is dark. Yeah, the read the mandibles and that's that's one. It's a good, have you read that yet? No, the mandibles. The mandibles by Lionel Shriver. No, it's a book that if you want to, if you want to explore the dark side of a currency failure, that book is probably the best novel written on the top of the mandibles. Lionel Shriver. I highly recommend it. It is dark. I don't know. I mean, I hope, you know, look, I pour violence in all its forms. I hope the 1% just kind of fails as a result of holding the wrong assets and those who hold the right assets, you know, are enriched in the process and that, you know, we established a fair world. That's, that's really the right way for this to occur. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be violent. You know, it can just, it can just be monetary. I mean, if everybody, you know, holds the wrong money and that money fails, well, guess what? They're going to be disadvantaged and the people who hold the right money.

54:09They're going to do better and I'm not going to be in a position to set the terms for how the society works and it's going to be, you know, more fair and that. I think that's really all we want. That's what the book talks about. I mean, we just, in my book, we just want to have a fair world where the playing field is level. And, you know, because the federal reserve reserve exists, you know, we don't have a level playing field. So my shameless plug, you can go to Amazon. You can buy it. Hold it, hold a little higher. Yeah, a little higher, a little higher. Here you go. Yeah. So it's, uh, sales have really, really fallen off, but it's done well. I think I've sold about 55,000 copies. I'm trying to get a publisher, but it's so edgy that, you know, publishers won't touch it. Did you say 55,000? Yeah. That's a lot. That's like, it's quite a successful book. Oh, man, there's 300 million people in this country. It's like, come on, gosh. I know, but it's, I mean, sadly for book sales, I've done a little bit of book selling. You know, like the 20,000 is does not bad today.

55:09I mean, people don't read the way they used to and all that stuff. Well, that's right. That is true. But whatever. I mean, I just, look, I just want to spread the word for sound money because the book really actually goes to more than just profit and loss. It's, you know, I think this is, the country was a great country in 1946 after we won World War II. And, you know, we've kind of gone in the wrong direction for a long, long time. And that's what this fourth, the fourth turning in my view that we're in right now. It's all about going in the right direction again. And the way that, you know, the most fundamental thing we can do is start going in the right direction is to fix the money and get back to a sound money standard. And that, you know, we had a better world than we were on the gold standard period. You mean, you mean, fix the money, fix the world? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, it's something like that. Yeah, that's the one. By the way, I'm aware from somebody. But it's a Marty bat. Marty bat was the first person to say that. And I think he, I think, you know, remember that the show would save the cheerleaders save the world. What was that? It was a show with heroes. Yeah, heroes. Yeah. I think he took it off of that. Yeah. So fix the money, fix the world.

56:11Fix the money, fix the world. All right, my friend. Well, look, thank you so much for this. So I'll be on buying your book. Folks want to follow you on Twitter and make a lot of noise. I'm also aggressive. I'm at that stage now, Adam, where I'm just not putting up with any nonsense. So you give me any shit. I'm going to block it really quick. It's just. All right, but you're just at Larry in the part on X, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've learned some part. It's just my name on Twitter. Actually, some people do get a benefit. We write my partner, David Fully, who's brilliant. He and I, we write a quarterly letter talking about all these things with charts and are, you know, supporting our argument. You can find all that on our website. It's ema2.com. It's free. You can put your email address in there. We'll send it to you. We'll never spam you with other shit. And every quarter, we kind of, it's, you know, 15 pages of here's what happened. And here's what we think the sound money thesis is and, you know, et cetera. So like I say, it's free.

57:11Okay, so let's just make sure I got these right. You're at Lawrence LaParte. That's right there. And then ema2.com. Perfect. You got it. We want to make sure people go into the right places. And then also folks. If you would like to get some guidance from a professional financial advisor on how to invest in this world, whether it's precious metals, whether it's Bitcoin, whether it's other hard assets or just in general, kind of a big print, you know, defensive portfolio. If you don't already have a good financial advisor who understands all that well takes all this stuff in the consideration that Larry and I have been talking about. Feel free to talk to one of the ones that thoughtful money endorses. If you are regular watcher of this channel, you're familiar with these folks are on with me on this channel weekend and week out. You can just go to thoughtful money dot com right there and fill out the very short form there. If you're a new user coming in from Larry's audience.

58:13These consultations are totally free. There's no commitments involved. These folks will just sit down. Understand your particular situation. They'll tell you what they think you should do. And you can go off and do it yourself. If you want to, if you're a DIY investor. If you want to hand those notes to your existing financial advisor and say, I like with these guys said, do this. Or if you want to keep talking with them about maybe being a potential client of theirs, you can do that too. Whatever works for you. But the point is is there are folks there that can help you for free. And then the last, if you want to. You know, buy some precious metals. I don't have a solution for Bitcoin. But if you want to buy some precious metals. As I mentioned earlier in this conversation, I have Andy Scheckman on this channel weekly almost weekly with me. And Andy is the CEO of miles Franklin. They are the endorsed precious metal solution by thoughtful money. Andy is actually offering a special exclusive offer to this audience, which is to be able to buy junk sober from him. He says he's never seen the conditions this goodness entire career. You can buy junk sober from miles Franklin for $1.50 under spot, which is like never happened before in Andy's career.

59:18If you want to take advantage of that or just get some help from his team in any questions you have about buying, storing or selling precious metals. Just go to thoughtful money.com slash by gold. There's a tiny little form takes you all 10 seconds to fill out. And then Andy and his team will be in touch with you right away. Lawrence, my friend, go ahead. Before we move on, let me just support you on that. He didn't mention the name, but you know, New Harbor financial is the group that Adam works with. And John Laundra and his partner there, I know him pretty well. And it's really a great group. And if you know, if I weren't managing my own fund, I mean, this is the kind of group of guys that I would definitely want to have. Helping me sort this stuff out. So I can highly recommend those guys. That is so kind of you. And that sound you hear. I'm sure is the New Harbor guys furiously. That clip will be all over the web, right? Yeah, exactly. But no, I appreciate that. I know they very much appreciate that endorsement there, Larry. Well, Larry again, I can't thank you enough for coming on and sharing your expertise.

1:00:21I also enjoyed chatting with you. The the pre show chat is the most interesting because Adam and I talk about our workout schedules and our injuries. We share. He's not quite as old as I am, but we share the aging athlete syndrome, which is you can't do what you used to be able to do when it's annoying. Right. But it doesn't mean we still don't keep chasing. Oh, we keep trying. Yeah. Well, look, Larry, thank you so much. Everybody watching in a live chat. Please express your gratitude for Larry for coming on here. And Larry, let's let's hopefully do this again soon. Anytime. Thanks. All right. And everybody else. Thanks so much for watching.