Is Australia inadvertently funding Russia's 'war machine'?

0:00A.B.C. Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more. It's one of Australia's most baffling, unsolved missing persons cases. In 2007, four people, including a five-year-old girl, vanished in Western Australia, amid rumours of bizarre behaviour, cults and long hidden secrets. We're trying to track them down. I'm Dominique Bayons, and I've been investigating for the new season of Expans, the NANUP4. Search Expans on A.B.C. Listen or wherever you get your podcasts. Where are the safest places in a war zone? From the Middle East to Africa to Europe. So many civilians are asking themselves that question right now. On this episode of Global Roaming, you're going to hear from a Ukrainian MP visiting Australia who puts her son to sleep in the bathtub. Every Ukrainian would understand why, because the busroom would be a room inside the house

1:02behind two walls with no windows in it. It's an amazing story and a kind of resilience we don't talk about very often, Hamish. But Ukraine knows firsthand what it is to survive. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. It's a bit different for us. I'm Kylie Morris. I'm Hamish McDonald. This is Global Roaming. I mean, there's so much to capture our attention at the moment. And we're probably not talking about the situation in Ukraine enough. And I guess the point is for those politicians visiting Australia to talk about one issue, they're inevitably caught up in all of the others at the same time. You know, their flights diverted, for example, or getting stuck here longer than they planned. And that was the case for this delegation of Ukrainian politicians visiting our leaders here.

2:02And that's also though why this advocacy of theirs is so important, because our focus is turning to the Middle East away from Europe, away from the plight of Ukraine, despite the fact that this war is carrying on at a high intensity every single day, as Anastasia tells you. I think it's also not just our attention that is diverted. It's the attention of the United States, for example. You can see a middle of this, the Trump administration, moving to relax some of the sanctions on Russia. And that has an immediate flow and effect. But I think what has made me sit bolt upright listening to Anastasia Radina, the visiting politician that you're about to hear from, is that she says, look, we might think Rubik Klinckin on this, we're not, we're not taking the question of diverted Russian oil through India, refined in India, ending up on our shores seriously enough. And the financial consequences for that for Ukrainians are dire.

3:03That's the argument that she's making. But there's another dimension to this conversation that I'm really pleased to include, is the personal dimension. There's the question of physical safety, physical peace. Can you find that in a war zone? But can you also find peace within your mind during these periods of conflict? And that's where we're going to get to in this conversation. I caught up with Anastasia Radina. She's a member of the Ukrainian parliament. She's also the chair of the Parliament's committee on the prevention and countering of corruption, which in Ukraine is also a very big deal. We're going to get to some of that, also the possibility of elections, and whether President Zelensky does need to get the mandate of the people again, because they are overdue in Ukraine. Here she is now. Anastasia, good morning, welcome. Morning. I want to start with the news that Australia is deploying one of these wedge-tail aircrafts to the Gulf,

4:04because of a request that's come in from the UAE. Now, many Australians have noted that actually this has already been deployed to Ukraine. How has this helped Ukraine over the past few years? This has helped us, but at the same time, our experience with the war is that we rely heavier on less traditional equipment. We rely heavier on drones, and drones is something that is literally the face of this war. drone technologies, they tend to change very quickly, as is an anti-German equipment. And by the way, this was one of the points that we discussed here in Australia with members of government and members of parliament, how Australia can benefit through exchange of technologies when it was Ukraine. Ukraine not only been on the receiving side, but also on the providing side, given how far we've advanced in drone technologies, and given the fact that we are basically one of the only nations

5:05was first-hand battlefield experience and opportunity to test and modernize our technologies, basically in the matter of weeks and days. This is happening literally right now, as we speak, and we are very concerned that our democratic partners should also receive access to this updated technologies, because Russia and Iran and North Korea and China, they are sharing technologies among themselves. It is important that democratic countries are not at a disadvantage, and also share and participate in Ukraine's experience. So there's a lot there. Are you seeing evidence that what Russia has been deploying against Ukraine is somehow that technology, that insight, is that being used by Iran right now? Absolutely, yes. The president of Ukraine, Mr. Zelensky, has already confirmed that Ukraine is sending our drone specialists to help design strategies and tactics and technologies also against Iranian drones

6:05for the protection of the U.S. bases in the region. And this is exactly what I mean when I say that our democratic partners should also gain advantage from the experiences that Ukraine is gaining, and that this partnership with Ukraine is not just democratic countries supporting Ukraine, but also then benefiting from the experiences that we've built and learned the hard way during the years of full-scale implementation. So just to be specific, because I suspect many listening would say, well, how on earth can Ukraine spare anyone at the moment? You've been sending or offering to send specialists to assist what the U.S. or these Gulf countries as well. We do not have specific details. We have what Mr. President announced, and this was that the request has come from the United States and that Ukraine readily answered to this by providing personnel and some of our technologies. And can you spare those people? This is what Mr. President said. Okay, does it worry you that they're being sent elsewhere?

7:07I mean, the threat is very real, is very present. There's some thought being given to whether Russia might take advantage of the world's focus being on the Middle East right now to push harder against the threat. I'm afraid there are a number of ways how Russia is already taking advantage of this. First is oil trade. Now, there has been a serious ask for the government of Australia to cut down the amounts of refined Indian oil that is actually Russian-sourced oil that is coming to Australia and it is with sadness that I have to acknowledge there still are loopholes and opportunities for Russian oil to come through India to Australia and therefore for Australia to basically tax revenues for this oil to Russia, supporting Russian-war machine. This is very complex territory, right? Because once the oil is effectively in international waters, it's quite easy for, for example, an Indian company to rebadge it, to refine it and then rebadge it. But basically, in terms of numbers, this is much less complicated.

8:10The numbers that I'm aware of are the amounts of military support that Australia provided to Ukraine is 1.7 billion. The amount of tax revenues that Russia received through its oil coming through India refined in India and then being purchased by Australia is 1.3 billion. So Russia received in tax revenues a amount that is comparable to the amount of help that is just a little bit less than the amount of help that Australia provided to Ukraine. So it is important that this loophole is being closed. I want to be precise about this. You say Australian taxpayers are giving almost as much financial help to the Russian regime as we are to Ukraine. So it seems given the amount of refined Russian oil that is still coming to Australia through India. And I understand there are various loopholes and explanations to this. But in the end, numbers are as they are.

9:12And currently with oil and gas, experts in the Gulf being blocked. And the US already given a way where to India to continue working with Russian oil. What is happening is Russia is earning on the war in the Gulf more and more. And guess where this money would go into killing Ukrainian civilians? A bit under Stassia you're asking these Australians. The US president is moving to remove some of the sanctions against Russia because of the situation in the Middle East. I think that this sadly is a mistake. We have years of experience with Russia. The war in Ukraine did not start in 2022. In 2014 with Russia occupying Crimea and with Russia occupying eastern territories of Ukraine. And then the world did not react with sanctions. The world continued trading with Russia as usual. Russia continued collecting revenues from selling its oil and gas worldwide.

10:12What did this lead to to Russia attacking Ukraine with a full scale invasion less than 10 years later? So I think it is important that we build upon this historical lessons and do not repeat mistakes. But I do want to ask about the now as a representative in the Ukrainian parliament, what do you make of Donald Trump using this moment to reduce the sanctions on Russia? I think this is not contributing to peace and stability in the world. I think this allows Russia to have additional revenues that Russia clearly uses for killing Ukrainian civilians. And again, I'm sad to have to acknowledge that since the beginning of the peace talks with Russia, more Ukrainian civilians were terrorized, were killed, were left homeless, then threw periods of time before negotiations that the peace talks started. So does this show that Russia is anywhere near to a too meaningful peace

11:12from where we stand, from what we see on the ground in Ukraine now? Do you think the West is giving up on Ukraine? I don't think that this is happening. I truly do not think so. But what reality are you looking at there? We're looking at a reality where we will have troubles with intercepting Russian ballistic missiles because U.S. Patriot systems in that and the supply of missiles for U.S. Patriot systems just to general production all over the world is considerably less than the amount of production that Iran and Russia have. And this is a serious spread, not just for Ukraine, but for all the democratic countries. How much time have you spent thinking through the realities of what Putin has asked for and what the Trump administration has appeared willing to give Putin to bring this conflict in Ukraine to a close? You know, large sways of the Donbass region, recognizing Crimea as part of Russian territory.

12:12I suppose a lot of the Western world has asked itself this question since Trump has returned to power, do the Ukrainians just need to give it up so that everyone can get on with this? First, we cannot surrender our lands, not because of lands, but because we've seen what happened to people who were on territories occupied by Russia and later liberated by Ukrainian army. Civilians there were killed, were raped, killed were kidnapped, and basically Ukrainians were in the state of literally slavery. Now, if let's imagine Ukraine is pressured to surrender territories to Russia, what does that mean? That aggressor is being rewarded for aggression? What would that mean for other dictators around the world who are basically having a very close eye on how is the Russian aggression addressed by democratic countries? And then I think we have just the sequence of the discussion we can not just discuss surrendering Ukrainian lands to Russia.

13:16What about security guarantees for Ukraine? What are the guarantees that Russia is not going to attack us again? But you've had security guarantees before. We had Budapest Memorandum that turned up being just an empty piece of paper according to Budapest Memorandum Ukrainian Ukraine was pressured to surrender our nuclear arsenal to Russia because that at the moment was considered a good choice for global security. What did this lead to? Russia blackmailing the whole world was this nuclear arsenal and no one doing anything about this. Trump has changed so much about the world. Many would question what the value of being a member of NATO is now anyway. Do you still want to be a member of NATO? Absolutely, yes. And we also think that there is a benefit in having Ukraine as a member because Ukraine's army is basically a battle-trained army that successfully combats what was considered to be a much stronger aggressor. Again, we have developed technologies that allow to effectively destroy very expensive equipment

14:21with a equipment that is much cheaper and mass-produced. I'm talking about how drones are successful in destroying tanks. And I think there are lessons in that that are important for NATO and our democratic lives. I'm global roaming. You're hearing Ukrainian MP Anastasia Radina talking to Hamish McDonald and still to come a profoundly personal story about how you keep your children safe in a war zone. You've been here in Australia meeting with some of our top-level politicians. Are they listening? Are they still interested in this story? There is so much in the world to distract us from the case for Ukraine. We were assured that support for Ukraine is still unwavering. We have had good meetings discussing how Australia can do basically three things. One is help Ukrainian civilians by continuing to participate in a pearl initiative, which is a program that allows our partners to contribute towards purchasing first and foremost

15:24air defense equipment from the United States. That's one thing. We were discussing how Australia can benefit through joint military production, maybe with Ukraine, from the experiences that we have built and accumulated through years of the war, from experiences of modern warfare, of drone warfare, but also we were discussing the necessity to cut the loob holes and stop fueling basically a Russian war machine by still allowing Russian refined oil to be purchased here in Australia. So what would you say to someone listening to this that's looking at the world right now, how chaotic it is, the immediate flow on effects from conflict in the Middle East on the price at the petrol pump when they go to fill up their car, and says, look, you know, I appreciate the situation the Ukrainians in, I get it, but I want the cheapest petrol I can get. I want the cheapest groceries I can get. I want inflation to stay down. I don't want to make all of these personal sacrifices

16:24for conflict on the other side of the world. Sadly, the world just does not work this way. If you do not want to curb the aggressor now, then this aggressor is basically coming to you, if not directly, then by all the energy blackmail, then by destroying food security, which is what happens when Russia effectively blocked the experts of foods from Ukraine to, for example, Middle East countries. What this leads to, this leads to another waves of migration and all sorts of problems for countries that seem to be very far away from the immediate center of the conflict. But in the end, turn out to be not that far away. So you were there during the Orange Revolution as a young student, 2004. I was in the Maidan during that period of upheaval and revolution. And my experience of loved reporting from Ukraine in various different places and on different stories. And it's always struck me as a country

17:24of enormous hope and optimism. Is that still there? That is absolutely still there. Ukrainians have shown the world what resilience means. At the same time, what we call upon the world to also recognize is that this sort of resilience of Ukrainian people should not be taken for granted. It should not be accepted as a new norm, because no one is to be expected. That to be that resilient for that long period of time. But still, let me give you a few numbers. Now, what Russia did this winter in Ukraine is it's weaponized winter cold. We have had the coldest winter in last 30 years. And during the nights, the temperature would drop to, for example, 20 degrees below zero. And the way Ukrainian houses address this is by having central heating. So Russia basically destroyed central heating facilities to the extent when average daily temperature in a kid's bedroom in Ukraine would be like five degrees above zero.

18:26After that winter, with blackouts, with no heating, less than five percent of Ukrainians said they are ready to compromise with Russia. Yeah. This is a small number showing how resilient still Ukrainians are after such a winter. We share one of the anti-corruption committees in the parliament. And corruption has been a feature of Ukrainian democracy whenever Ukraine has had a good shot at and having a successful democracy. Why does it fail when it comes to this test? Doesn't that just open the door for the kind of Russian interference the Russian influence in the domestic politics when the people say they want democracy and they want independence? Can't deliver that in a way that works and is clean and transparent for the people? Now it is definitely true that in the end of 90s in the beginning of 2000s, Russia basically weaponized corruption in Ukraine and turned it to work against the interests of Ukrainian sovereignty. But since that time,

19:26we have had a huge effort in fighting against corruption. Most important thing that we recognize the problem. Yes, we were in a very bad place in terms of the situation with corruption. For example, in 2013, when the Revolution of Dignity, which I also actively participated involved, since that time we spent 10 years building anti-corruption institutions, building them literally from scratch, making sure they have... We still got plenty of corruption. But we have institutions able to uncover this corruption. We have institutions and detectives and prosecutors and judges finally willing and able and capable of identifying corruption and prosecuting it regardless of who is involved, regardless of their position, regardless of their political connections, regardless of whether they are in power or not. Do you need also to have elections then? President Zelensky, does he need to go to the polls to see if he's got the mandate of the people?

20:26Now when it comes to elections, Mr. President has made it very clear that he is ready to go for elections any moment. At the same time, in terms of security situation, this is just not possible. Why? We have 101.2 million of people in the military. They have a right to vote, but they also have a right to run. They have a right to campaign. How do we ensure this right? Are democratic countries ready to accept elections where those paying the dearest price for security of Ukraine, those in the military are effectively disenfranchised? I, as an elected representative, I'm not ready to let such sort of elections happen. Now, we will need elections to be international recognized, our international observers, ready to come to the front lines to make sure elections are happening according to all of the standards. We have not heard a yes answer to this question yet. So yes, elections are important. I am six and a half years in the parliament.

21:28That's a lot. I'm very ready for elections. This is just not technically possible. A final thought. Most people can't imagine what it's like to live in a war zone. And obviously not all of Ukraine is sort of experiencing the kinetic conflict on a day-to-day basis. Do you still have a place? Do you still have a spot that you go to at home in your city or in the countryside where you find your moment of peace? That is a very complicated question for lots of Ukrainians. Let me just tell you this. My son is six years old. He does not remember what life was like before the war. Almost every night I would have to put him to sleep and actually a bus stop instead of his bedroom because the bus room would be basically the safest. Every Ukrainian would understand why because the bus room would be a room inside the house behind two walls with no windows in it. This is about the sort of security that we can have in normal houses or in Kiev or in Lviv even western Ukraine.

22:33This is the sort of protection that we have against Russian drones and missiles against, for example, a drone exploding nearby and window bursting and injuring everyone in the house. The bus room is the type of place. We will have to put our kids to sleep literally in a bus stop or on a bus from the floor because that is about everything we can do to not even ensure their safety but protect them to the extent that is available for us currently. So answering the question as to a peaceful spot is really a difficult thing for us given that our kids are unable to sleep in their bedrooms and have to sleep on a bus from the floor or in bus stops. Anastasia Rudina, thank you very much. Thank you. Kylie, I'm really curious to hear your take on that final story about the bathtub. You've spent plenty of time in conflict zones.

23:33Where do you go? Where have you had to hide out? Absolutely the bathroom. Why? Because there's no windows. Because you can close the door. I was in a hotel in Iraq when some gunmen came in and started firing inside the hotel. And I closed my door and went and hid in the bathroom and called another colleague on a satellite phone to find out where they were to try and find out who the gunmen were. They fired through the doors of the hotel room in a couple of rooms, not mine. But I felt the only place I could have a chance of being safe was inside a bathroom. But actually this idea that you can find safety and you have some agency I think is really important for civilians in a war zone. In Gaza, I knew families where the dad would walk around and open the window just to chink every night in case there was an explosion so that their kids bedroom windows didn't blow out. And they'd also take gaffer tape and put exes on the window

24:33to stop the window from shattering. So it really struck a chord with me actually when she talked about that. Also about all that drone knowledge and know how that the Ukrainians have accumulated through these experiences. And the fact that they are now, perhaps unwillingly, a kind of world leader in technology when it comes to intercepting drones but also to protect yourself from drones and how to build drones. It's kind of a size. And it's a thing that amid the conflict in Ukraine that they would be deploying people that they need to the Gulf States, for example, to help the United States enough. It's clever politics, though, too, isn't it? In the sense that there is money in the Gulf, the Ukrainians need continued support from other partners to try and keep fighting back against the Russians. So I think there's that. But also there is some other history here. Those drones that the Iranians are firing towards the Gulf, the kind of retaliatory drones, are the same drones that the Russians have been using

25:33against the Ukrainians. So the Ukrainians kind of have a score to settle with the drone manufacturers of Iran, so they may well see it through that prison as well. I've got to say I was really intrigued by her comment that Australia is contributing a similar amount to Russian coffers through our purchasing secondhand Russian oil, through that Indian refinery, as it is aiding spending to aid Ukraine's war effort. Because we kind of slap ourselves on the back about this, right? We feel like good citizens in terms of the way we're supporting Ukraine. But are we really undoing all of that with this purchasing avoidance? Yeah, I mean, the oil markets are complex. Once the oil is at sea, then becomes much harder to track. There's also the whole point that's been made about Russian shadow fleets. But yeah, the Australian government has been under pressure to take more action in relation to this stuff. I mean, the Indian government itself has played a, you know, a pretty transactional role in assisting Russia to get around the sanctions.

26:35I mean, that's the only way really to observe it. So we've had an email from Sarah from Darlinghurst, and she writes, with all this focus on Israel and their war in Iran, I can't help thinking what is happening in Gaza is Israel still continuing its attacks on Palestinians and quietly taking over the West Bank. I hate the thought that this new war is distracting us from the genocide in Gaza and the advance of the settlers. So that's an email from Sarah from Darlinghurst. It's so interesting, isn't it? Here we are talking about not averting our gaze from Ukraine. And we have Sarah saying, well, hang on, what about the other Middle Eastern war? And to be honest, the Gaza dimension of that conflict has somewhat distracted from what's going on in the West Bank, which is, in terms of the domestic politics of Israel,

27:38the relationship between the US and Israel, the actions taken by the Israeli government in relation to Palestinian-held land in West Bank is something that I guess the world has averted its gaze from to some degree. Even as it's gathering pace, it would seem certainly from my contacts in the West Bank. Global dot roaming at abc.net.au is our email address. What else is coming up this week, Kylie? Well, tomorrow, Geraldine and Latika have a conversation with Richard Haas. Now, here's one of the big thinkers in foreign policy globally. He was deeply involved in planning the Iraq war and in securing the Northern Ireland piece. So we're really excited to have him on the show with his analysis of what comes next in the Middle East. And also, we're hoping to hear from an art curator in Poland who's working with her government to keep their national collections safe when, not if, the Russians push over the border. Bye-bye for now. Bye-bye.

28:56You've been listening to an ABC podcast. You can discover more ABC podcasts, live radio and exclusives on the ABC listener.