Interview Only w/ Brian Knappenberger - 25 Years After 9/11: How The Attack Reshaped America

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4:23And so we're at one of those periods with 911 and it's in that vein that my next guest is here. It's Brian Nappenberger. He is the executive producer and director of a of a 911 documentary that is landing on Netflix Netflix in the month of September, turning point generation 911. This is part of the turning point franchise of historical events there and Brian Joyce me now. So Brian, I believe there's something somewhere in that 20 to 30 year range is when I feel like living sources finally tell the truth. And you can you're far enough away where you don't have to worry about personal personal feelings sometimes as much. And look, before we get into the specifics of this documentary, you do a lot of history. What's your sense? What's your experience when you're trying to recreate a moment or trying to understand what was happening in and around a life during when one of these turning point events happen.

5:28But what's your sense of when you feel like you're getting close to the truth? It's interesting. I thought a lot. That's a great question. I thought a lot about it when we were creating this. Creating this film. When we first released, you mentioned the first series. So the turning point 911 on the war on terror was on the 20th year anniversary of 911. And you know, a lot of people watched it on Netflix. And there was a lot of chatter online. You know, I was kind of looking at how people were talking about it and thinking about the film. And one of the things that really struck me that I think goes to your source, speaks to your question is, is how many people didn't know what 911 was. It really didn't know either they hadn't been born yet or they were just too young to remember the events of that day. So you know, here we are, you know, they may have learned about it in school, but pretty minimally probably. And so for me, that was just really eye opening 911 like so many people changed my life. I mean, I can't imagine, you know, it changed the course of change how I saw the world, you know, and changed my career and my wife and I moved in with each other that day. That night in the night.

6:38Really? Wow. I mean, we had just started dating. And she had a little dog lived on Capitol Hill and I lived in the suburbs of Arlington, suburbs of DC in Arlington. And I'm and we, you know, we, we, we were, we worked at the Watergate together. And so, you know, I always had visions of my staff looking at the looking like craning their neck to see if they can see the smoke from the Pentagon. Yeah. And I remember I'm like, you're, you're not staying near the Capitol. That's insanity. Yeah. And our mom was a little bit conservative and not, you know, probably would, would out of, would have frowned upon it except for the circumstances that we were in. Yeah. We never left. And we get married a year later. I mean, but I was 28, 29 when this happened. So yeah, I think you and I are about the same age. It's like, it was a life changer, particularly if you lived in New York or DC. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, exactly. And I'm not, you know, it's not that you and I are old by any distraction. But, but you know, we're just not young. That's how I was. We're just not young. I'm just not going to get anymore. Right. There you go.

7:45But, you know, on the first anniversary of 9-11, I was, I was actually in condos making one of my first films that it was picked up by PBS Frontline. And it was so profound and, and for me, and, you know, here we are 25 years later. And we're about to reach the point in the next couple of years where nearly half of all Americans were either born after 9-11, we're too young to remember the events of that day. So, you know, when we're making this, I'm really thinking about how, how, with this event is moving from a lived memory to history. And so this, this, this film is really about the experience of that, of that younger generation. I don't assume people that know what 9-11 meant or what I felt like to go through it. I wanted to bring them into that day to understand not, you know, not just the terror and the uncertainty, but what happens next because some of the decisions we made after 9-11 in those uncertain days and weeks that followed really define our current modern world more than the event itself.

8:55Before I get into the film, I'm just curious, because I know I suddenly was curious after I was watching your film is, did you find any scholarship in 1966 about how we marked the 25th anniversary of Pearl Harbor? And did you look back at 1988 and how we marked the 25th anniversary of Kennedy being shot? I'm trying to look, I was 16 and 88, so I, I remember all the specials, because man, I was an obsessive conspiracy theorist back then. I've read all, right, with Kennedy. So I have some memory of 88, but that is what stride. I was just curious, did you go back to see how other sort of scarring events like that that was sort of captured the imagination of the country and how it was handled 25 years ago? I did a little bit and I, like you I remember, I remember that, because I was in high school. But, you know, one thing I did clock for sure is to do the math back 25 years from my own birth and that would have been Hiroshima.

10:02So 25 years before I was born was Hiroshima. So that really puts an in perspective. So this, this event that was so transformative to us that in which we will remember, it's the day you moved in with your wife. It was, I spent every minute of that day watching television as my view of the world, shift it, I could feel it. Politics was different. My, the way I saw our country was different. And, and that is so such an indelible moment for us, but, but you can't, you can't be upset with people who do, who just worn around and don't see that one. Look, I remember I filled out, I felt on an application to join the Navy reserves. Never heard back from the Navy, by the way, on that. But I remember in that aftermath that first week, it was sort of like, especially here in DC, you just, you know, you just, it was inevitable. More was going to happen. So then you started to think, okay, what, what am I going to do? You know, both, both in, I need to contribute and at the same time, how am I going to escape when the next terrorist attack comes and how am I going to live my life?

11:07And, and here's the thing, a lot of people were thinking this way back then. And I think the most, the biggest, you want to talk about the biggest prediction did not come true. It was that, right? This idea that we were going to become Tel Aviv. I mean, I think that was the, that is what I thought, you know, we lost our terrorist virginity, right? Our terrorism virginity and what the, what life has been like for the average person in Tel Aviv for, for our, for the last 40 years, I thought was going to be life in Washington in New York. I guess, thankfully, it's not been that way. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And that's part of what I was hoping to capture in this film, just that, that fear, the fear of that day, but just also that uncertainty in the days and the weeks and the months that followed, you know, all of those events were done in a few hours in the morning. And we didn't know what was coming next. We didn't know if there were more coming that, that next day, in the next week, in the next months, we, we were so sort of traumatized by this that we just didn't know what was coming next. And in hindsight, nothing came next really.

12:13There was the underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, both absurdly, sort of absurd, a town, kind of like bad copycats, right? Yeah, yeah. But, but since then, there's been virtually personally nothing, certainly not connected to how kind of. So let's talk about the concept generation 911. Was the goal, who's your audience? My audience is well, everybody I think will get something out of this, but I really do want to focus on people that weren't around that day, who are too young to remember those events, who, who may know a little bit about it, but may, may not quite understand how much, how different it is, you know, our country is, I mean, America, after 911 is just a different country than the America that came before it. And I would, I would love to not to go through, not just what it felt like that day for people, not to communicate the fear and the uncertainty that came after.

13:22And not to excuse the decisions that came later, I'm pretty critical of a lot of the work. Like, you know, you had this, you know, I'm glad you kept it in, you clipped a news clip, and I think it was with blitz are saying, you know, 63% of Americans are willing to give up some freedom in exchange for, you know, for security. Right. And, you know, that, you know, you wouldn't see that. I don't know if the number would be that high today. And that, that of course, you know, you know, with security that, you know, comes that comfort perhaps. I thought that was important to include like you, you have to, you could sit here and say I can't believe you guys went to war in Afghanistan in Iraq. And, you know, it just makes no sense. Yeah, it's it absolutely makes little sense now. But in the moment, we never experienced anything like this. This wasn't a nation state that came after us. And then we, it and more importantly, as much as we also just didn't believe a stateless actor could do this without the help of the state.

14:31And we were just our folks. And I understand that instinct that we weren't going to believe they didn't have help. But so we were, you know, and it was going to take years to convince us that that wasn't the case, right. So I think it's and I probably to this day. I mean, I think you did your best to convey that it's still very hard to convey the, the, the fear we were all living in particularly. And again, this was a big divide. And I know this was harder to capture and I think 90 minutes. Well, you need, I was talking about this with my producer. To really do 9-11, you might need to do the OJ Simpson made in America five or 15 hour expose because because one of the things that I think we've never fully appreciated is how the rest of America, well certainly touched by this, not like DC in New York. And yet we drove so much of the feelings about it to the point of you weren't allowed to comment if you hadn't experienced it.

15:32Yeah, yeah, I mean, it is it drove us to make decisions. I mean, back to who this is for. I do think it would be not I love the next generation to kind of understand. But people that are, you know, sort of will begin to start to take the reins of power and start to make some of these decisions and start to define who we are as a country. I mean, not to fall into the same fear and suspicion that lead us leading us down a pretty dark path as well. You know, we gave up personal liberties as a country and it wants just into these endless shifting kind of forever wars. And, you know, a lot of that fear and suspicion was directed at, you know, Muslim communities. And we built this enormous security and enforcement infrastructure in response mass, and dragging that suspicionless surveillance expanded dramatically. A lot of the conversation about whether that was, you know, whether that flew in the face of the Fourth Amendment and whether we were willing to do that or not.

16:40But that whole kind of infrastructure that we built it didn't disappear when that immediate threat receded. It remained and it found new targets and when you look at this, you know, but people don't I think when you talk to the people nowadays, they don't realize like, you know, you and I lived in a world where there wasn't a department of Homeland Security where there wasn't ice, you know, this, you know, 9-11 created that and created the departments that would eventually become ice. We very much live in a world now that was created out of the decisions after 9-11 and those decisions were largely based on fear and suspicion. I mean, you know, one of the things I think it's one of the worst decisions government made was the creation of the Department of Homeland Security and I understand how it happened. And there had been certainly there was a plan on the shelf there would have been people talking about should we have should should should really treasury and commerce, you know, back then treasury and commerce for some reason housed a few of these kind of semi security agencies and we find you know, maybe there ought to be.

17:47Another cabinet agency so there was you know, like anything that there was a play I always tell people you want to put a plan on the shelf because you never know when the crisis emerges, people are desperate for a plan and them one you know sometimes and Joe Lieberman handed them one right this was sort of him enough you others were we're sort of into this but. But you know you can go back in history and any decision government makes quickly is usually a bad decision yeah it's hard to find one that when you when you made it quickly that it that it that it goes well. Yeah in the initial series we talked about that vote for the AUMF right the authorization to use military force which was really made in the few in the days maybe within a week of 9 11 there was this kind of bill that that you know basically said that the president had the ability to go after terrorist groups very open and in way terrorist groups all over the world. No country list right it was country yes yeah yeah and that passed unanimously except for one person Barbara Lee she's the only one who said look I've said is everybody had to flee the capital I was scared for my life he's I think she had a system or somebody.

19:02The staffer that was killed and but she said look we can't we can't let fear and the this fear just overtake us and make these decisions that we may regret later even in this moment for everybody is on board with some kind of vengeance some kind of military action we need to keep our heads about us it's striking that that there was one vote that said no to to the AUMF and yet that that is the that is the that is the. That is the effort that has continued really to this day including going after groups that were never even around on my 11. Hey this episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought to you by ethos look let me tell you about life insurance as you know ethos is is an incredible portal for helping you find the right life insurance policy i'm a huge believer in life insurance. I wouldn't have gotten to college in Washington DC without life insurance my father had a policy buried somewhere that we discovered and it wasn't a lot of money but it was.

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21:17sleep and break your heart and that's why we make the solid verbal college football show I'm Ty Hildenbrand he's Dan Rubenstein how's it going every week we preview the games that matter sore through the biggest story lines and tell you what to watch before kickoff there's a lot to keep track of who's for real which upset is hiding in plain sight and which storyline is about to take over your group chat and when the games are over join us in the aftermath to we're going to react to what happened talk about the biggest results of course will cover the playoff picture and all the little details you might have missed while flipping between like 12 games at once whether you know every coach and coordinator or just want to understand why everybody is yelling we're here to help make sense of the madness listen to the solid verbal college football show on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The NFL never stops and neither does its newest podcast the NFL report hosted by me and Rousseau Suleon it is your home for everything football.

22:26We're tapping the biggest news stories giving you expert analysis fantasy previews game picks and more. We fly around every single play we dominate every single play. Want to hear from the league's top stars out of the biggest matchups we've got you covered that really good football team we got to have all hands on death. And point me and it all starts to banalists for everything you need to know from around the league. Get new episodes of the NFL report Monday through Friday all season long listen to the NFL report podcast on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It's fall in Jeep country and during the driving to fall sales event get a great deal on four by fours that refuse to be contained like Jeep Wrangler Confidence built into every drive with the most awarded SUV ever Jeep Grand Cherokee and freedom that can't be denied with the open air freedom in

23:29Jeep gladiator after 85 years It's no surprise that Jeep became America's SUV brand yet a great deal during the Jeep driving to fall sales event Jeep is one more awards over its lifetime than any other SUV brand Jeep Jeep grille registered trademarks of the AUS LLC enjoy big savings with Red Hot deals at Vons and Albertsons This week at Vons and Albertsons baby back pork ribs are 299 per pound with membership where applicable limit three racks and ballpark hot dogs or hamburger buns eight count are 299 with digital coupon plus personal seedless watermelons or canalope are 199 each with digital coupon Enjoy fresh and delicious savings for every meal hurry in these deals won't last visit vons or Albertsons.com for more deals and ways to save Well the other thing it's hard to I mean you know we were shaming people for not wearing flagpens Yeah, culture which was still more mono culture than it is today. We hadn't this is pre iPhone which means

24:31pre You know 2.0 fragmentation right basically pre social media. Yes, there was internet. Yes, there was blogs. Yes, there was certainly Conspiracy there was plenty of places for conspiracy theory to foment don't get me wrong But it really was more You know on the on the outskirts only even the stream edges of the internet And it was you know, but the mainstream conversation was you're either pro-America or you're with the terrorists Yeah, people forget that stuff. I was trying to get a little more of that in there too the freedom fries Or you know, you can't call them french fries because the French and I was just not dead with that. Yeah, yeah But You know, that was that that was a weird moment and it did seize the culture in a positive way it was a moment of unity too People really it was kept an amazing I mean, it's one of the most watched events in all of world history Until that point it was um, you know people

25:32You know, that's first Yeah, there's this feeling that we've experienced something together something You know, traumatic but that we would respond to it together, right? We all kind of felt like we were there for each other And people kind of forget that that was that was true in America. It was true worldwide. I mean look I mean, I mean, this is gonna sound a little uh little set it snarky, but uh, you know People love New York City and that was a that was remarkable And right New York City was a city knew that you loved if you were there, but you hated if you weren't right Yeah, I've a mindset a little bit right there was always you know and You know the the Coming together rallying around New York City, which is again, you're not gonna find that every day In some of the reddest parts of America Um, but in that moment, right everybody was I mean to this day We treat firefighters better As a collective if you will, right? We local communities vote to give them raises and all this stuff those first responders in particular we didn't

26:37We never treated those folks as anything other than bureaucrats before 9-11 And our firefighters that are you know, we now know we we treat that we we treat it all differently Because we realize you know, they don't know what moment they're putting their life on the line They just they signed up to do this um, and they just they just jumped in and so You know, but you're right and it's like we shouldn't just focus on the negative it had this you know, we We brought pride into being a firefighter and I think to this day you have people wanting to be a firefighter It a little bit it goes back to 9-11 I think that's totally true. I didn't really get you you know when you're going through footage Yeah, you know of this day. This was a little true. We're going to watch this. I'll be honest Brian. I it is a little I would have you know how could make the I you know and I don't know how much 9-11 I struggle sometimes doing 9-11 retrospectives Um, you know, you feel like well, I went through it. So I know I had to cover it. I had to do all I live it. I um, yeah, I

27:41But I'm glad I saw this because it's in I realized boy, we have a lot more work to do Yeah, yeah, that unity is right and it gets you that you know, the You know the bloodlines the the way the people kind of came to New York City the that sort of collective Coming together um, that's that's an important part of the story I'm pretty critical probably of the uh in this and other stuff I've done of the war of the wars and the decisions that were made in the way it changed our government the way we Started changing what it kind of meant to be an American uh that sort of thing and some of that Think in the divisiveness that came later But there was a real moment of unity worldwide, you know, you hear here It's been such a discussion of you know, Trump talking about NATO. Why should we put the build for NATO if they know We're not doing their parents shed and all this stuff But the only time you know this kind of key article 5 You know it was ever triggered With NATO Ever in all of history in the history of NATO was in defense of the United States after 9-11

28:46That's it The world came together and said we're gonna we're gonna help you. We're gonna protect you. We're gonna be it that was the show of unity Uh, that we've never others never seen any at any other point in history You know, it's interesting um I'm sure you know, there's a lot of complicated feelings for a lot of people when it comes to the Bush bushes and the Channies in 9-11 And there's a lot of people who have rethought their belief what they think of these two people and these families after the Trump era Right, which is like made people and but you know, I don't think people fully appreciate how You know we were in hindsight we were lucky to have an empathetic president at that moment Whatever one thinks that the decisions Bush makes down the line on the war That's one thing and we're gonna have a lot of policy disagreements there But go into a mosque very quickly after 9-11 Um to say the things that he said after 9-11 the rhetoric that

29:49Was was used and was denounced if somebody else chose to do something different. I mean We had some responsible leaders rhetorically in this country at a time when can you imagine Today's leadership with a similar situation Um, yeah, I don't you know with the infusion of Christian nationalism and our Pentagon With the way islamophobia is sort of a woven through so much of of mega Whoo, you know, I mean, I think you know At the time it was just he was behaving as we would assume any president would behave now You look back and realize hey not every president might have behaved the way Bush be You made an effort That's true for sure to um to to say the you know Muslims are not terrorists to reach out to the Muslim community One of the things trump did I think is he found that there was still Political power somehow there was something to exploit yeah, but in in firing people up and and in re-genering

30:53So could re-generating some of that fear and suspicion and and using it for his own political purposes I mean, there's you know this speeches that they're equally Obsiding when you go back to 2016 17 where he's saying I think there should be more surveillance of certain mosques and Really calling for what oh, you know this no Muslim ban. Yeah, stop until we understand what's happening think about that That's 15 years after 9-11 and no terrorist attacks happened in that 15 years at all. So why are we So banning Muslims until we understand what Well, I think that's the problem is there isn't a problem This is the This is the The legacy of 9-11 that is a scourge which is Islamophobia um Obviously the seeds and we're already there a little bit Frankly how hollywood portrayed every Muslim right you know back in the 90s and the early ops was a was certain way

31:56um you and I in the 80s grew up with hijackers always have happened to be from the Middle East right They would be in the Russian The Russian Communist but remember the terrorism the hijackings of the the 80s that were uh that were the sort of the That was always one of the you know one of the attempts to try to garner attention for various issues in the Middle East and uh Wait, I can't tell our is it better or worse on one hand there are more Muslims in American political life today than there were 25 years ago And I frankly think a lot of Muslim Americans decided hey, uh, you know We need to get more involved in American politics and more involved in the American fabric So we are not like seen as outcasts and isolated and all this stuff and so on one hand There's been a tremendous amount of progress and yet it feels like Islamophobia is only gets worse Yeah, you feel like yeah, I feel like pre-truck there was there's significant you know

33:01The country had sort of made some real progress to some degree. I think he discovered there was this This this hatred there on gas or Well, it's like we just like we choose to discover it with anti-Semitism none of it ever goes away It just goes dormit for a while Yeah um, the the Weird way in which it's kind of shown up to is you know what we did um The uh, you know, the we've talked to a lot of kids who were uh, whose lost parents on 9-11 and one of them was this woman Laura Homer and um She was her father was the pilot on flight 93 that crashed in Pennsylvania and well, she had cheek you know She really rocked me with one of the guys but go ahead. I don't want to give it away No, it's just really powerful and and one of the things It first of all it's just her story was powerful. Well, one of the things that really struck me was um, you know that she was trolled online that she had uh that she was you know while she was

34:02He did these comments these direct messages that were sort of um I don't know how you describe it I guess mocking her or trolling her And it really made it clear to me that that a lot of a kind of younger generation is getting what they know about 9-11 from social media and you know social media explosion social media happens right after 9-11 I mean we're talking about I think Facebook is around 2004 maybe twitters Maybe read something like 2005 twitters around 2006. So suddenly this is the wave of social media that kind of rushes into our system Just as we're still kind of trying to figure out The trauma of this event and that goes in this very bizarre Dark way, you know, it is very dark movement that people call the truth truth or movement um, you know I think it's pretty clear that that's a sort of Past that you can kind of trace and you can kind of follow Alex Jones really starts to become famous in that truth or movement But this you know this conspiracies that swirl around it that 9-11 is the inside job. I mean

35:08That anticipates this dark that anticipates Trump and some of the some of the um divisiveness online that we started to see this trying to get sharper and sharper um And it really gets into stark relief when you when you're hearing that from Somebody who lost their father on 9-11, you know What does that person think of the truth or movement or or this divisiveness and they just sort of put in context That how far then where that movement has has gone and where's taking us So you know I I think about Sort of the broader strokes of now looking back 25 years Um our post 9-11 response Or was it a total failure in hindsight? You know, if it's not what what parts of it weren't a failure It's a good question and we and we struggle with that and we would try to figure that out in the film

36:10Like so many people I was in favor of initial Military actions so many people felt they attacked somebody accountable damn it I'm gonna punch a wall through dry about put your fifth through drywall If you're really good proud of myself, and then I'm gonna go to home deep. I would go figure out how to patch that And you know we drove the Taliban out pretty quickly and we drove Almost completely out of Afghanistan and and al-Qaeda as well all that leadership fled in the beluca stan and into Pakistan and they were gone and as I mentioned my what one of my first films I ever made Was I was in condohar on the one-year anniversary And at that point this was optimistic I mean, I and there's no other way for me to describe it. This was a positive Interesting they did one for happening you point this out. Yeah, we were we were treated as liberators and and um You know there is a you want to talk about a what if what if we never go to Iraq and Afghanistaners are our sole focus

37:12um, I don't think that canna stand ends the way it ends um I agree at abbey gate Yeah, we took we took our eye off the ball no question and Created this war of choice in Iraq Um, so yeah, it's it's a really stark For me, you know to sort of be there and experience this kind of optimism that there's this new chapter and then to Talk to these Marines that you know nobody thought when I was there for sure that 20 years after 9-11 We would actually be engaging Marines sending Marines in To assist the Taliban in the takeover of of Kabul. I mean in nothing quite Says it like that. We are they we're sending our troops and to assist with this and so What was this whole effort of failure? It kind of kind of seems like it at this point All that money that we put in uh to those what's the way I'm like what is better today Than it was on September 12th 2001

38:14Uh For security for national security. Yeah, or Yeah, let's go with national security. What is better today? Um, you know We probably smartened up about Communications between intelligence agencies You know, we probably did you know there was a real lack of communication It wasn't even the lack of communication. It was a territorialism between right uh FBI and the CIA and We were naive in that regard. I think I think we've we've smartened up about that That's probably true. We've I think some of the Um Even other kind of annoying for some of the stuff at airports is is probably smart Um, but the ways in which we have gone overboard and and the ways in which politicians have exploited that fear Has really led us into a country that has changed us and I don't think it's for the better um, you know, I think when you look at Uh, ice the violence on the streets today that it's perpetuated by ice

39:17I think that's a reverberation of my love. There's no question about it That is a result of the choices that we made um, the kind of our our our immigration debate has been separable from from all of this, you know um And I think we we rushed into a new technological world that expanded Sure valence and security and it is surveillance of American citizens in a way that is uh that was dangerous and could continue to be dangerous And more importantly Flies in the face of basic kind of forth amendment protections I mean, you know, there's a reason why founders said you can't be searched without a warrant. There's a reason for that So this idea that we'd have this mass suspicionless dragnets surveillance of Americans without who aren't suspected of a crime Um, is uh, it just goes and it flies in the face of something that's pretty Important and and valuable and special about this country Um, how do you answer the question of why did he attack us?

40:22Why did he attack us he you know, uh, that's a good question. He has been lawden and I'm yeah, sorry But I'm gonna I got a few more have been lawden, but I want to start with that. Well how would he? Do you think that's a question we've sufficiently answered for this generation that maybe was alive but didn't wasn't aware Yeah, he is I mean his officially of course he or the way he talks about it's interesting After he died there, you know after a song of been lawden was killed in Pakistan really close to this uh military Basin Pakistan they found six thousand documents um of his and so they're trying to piece together some of this and and I think we've learned a little bit More about him from that, you know, uh, what do we know about him really actually he did a surprising number of television interviews in the 90s For somebody was wanted back that Um talk to CNN and talk to uh, yeah, and other uh kid of privilege who becomes a political extremist. Yes

41:25Yeah, interesting pattern, but anyway come you know you talked about the military American military next to holy sites and and um satirabil he talked about Um just I think I think it's uh You know a lot has been made I think of and it's true that that We know we backed some some dictators and and people that that were oppressive and uh, they was convenient for us and And so I think I think he A lot of his point was around that um, and so that that is that is the that's the time he's a story to tell like it yeah because look We had a cold war mindset Right real palatee where we Where our values we we we look the other way Yeah, if you were on if you were on Team capitalism we looked the other way As long as you weren't going to be on team communism And it was like you were forgiven of anything else no matter how you treated your people Whatever it was

42:27Um, and we were You know, we embrace transactional politics basically we bought We bought allies when necessary and when you're dealing in a binary world, which is the world that the cold war was I can explain it But there were always going to be consequences and and the and This is among the consequences look we have an entire Multiple generations of Latin America I grew up in Miami. So I live with this multiple generations of Latin Americans who don't trust the Americans Which is why like I can't believe we're taking the oil of the Venezuelans. It's like do you have we learn nothing from history This is only going to end badly. I just don't know how it's bad how badly and here we go again um But that's the that's a tough thing to You we won the cold war because of these decisions But it did lead it didn't you know, there are unintended consequences and it's possible the rise of bin Laden was one of them Yeah, and no question about it to add a little irony to it

43:30You know, a sum of bin Laden was One of our solutions that one three two Winning the cold war and so we were we were with the Taliban before we were against them Which we were back with them remember yeah, exactly Um, but it's it's an interesting question I take it that that's those are the those are the reasons for that and I think I think we learn a lot about that Another question a very a variant of that that I kind of Think about is what what do you what do you want to do after night 11 and I and you know there's You know, I think that they were they seemed You know as far as I know the next video interview of his this something like 2004 or something he comes he comes forward That's the first time that's the next time we actually see him on camera and you know they were they were a small group Um On 9 11 they weren't they weren't a large group and they and he was focused mostly on killing war Americans Which led to the and it's really a more of a chat he was more focused on tactics than he was yeah

44:33Something larger right? Yes, but I think he came to understand that that the real damage was Was the divisiveness that it caused within us and I think it was the the way that it triggered us Uh, you know going to war all over the world and on this incredible Um sort of you know this enormous amount of money that it took us to go to war and the way that that would deteriorate our society I think he came to see that um Later that that was actually the the success the divisive the what we would do to ourselves in divisiveness and what and they had the kind of attrition and the the The cost that it would take for it to be engaged in all these wars for some of the years This episode of the check time casting is brought to you by fandal baseball fans Think you know who's hitting a home run today? Well fandal is giving you a free chance to call your shot with daily dairs Joining the action is easy. You just make your free pick on who's hitting a home run and their get and if you're right

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46:38You can call 803275050 in Massachusetts. You can call 18778 hope and why or you can simply text hope and why New York In order to get some help with any gambling concerns finally you can also call 1877 7707867 if you're in Louisiana The operation itself Um in hindsight it really was rag tag wasn't it Yeah, you look lucky. Yeah, it was there was a lot more luck involved. I think that's I think that's true I mean, you know when you look at 9 11 at the alkaida the group alkaida. I think we're talking about a few hundred people Max that's it And so, you know, they're and and I mean in the world And so we're talking about this very small group of people that we're able to exploit this kind of vulnerability In our system and our you know the openness of our country

47:41I mean doesn't it's that too why the Bush administration for so long just refused to believe they did this on their own Right. Yeah, I think it does. I think it does But really it's pretty striking that there's so few few few members of alkaida and of course there is no alkaida in Iraq at all Before we Before we go to war in Iraq that's it And so there's this whole deep application process where we kick people out of and then we put people in prisons There's this kind of fomenting of extremism They suddenly create this they they create a qi alkaida interact that is born out of After this as a reaction to our Going to war in Iraq a qi becomes the Islamic state of Iraq and Gross has broader territorial ambitions moves into Syria as the s And says and suddenly we have the ISIS which is the biggest terrorist organization probably in the history of the world. I mean, it's it's just a huge

48:44International uh Well-funded because they're they're stealing art and and oil reserves so so it's um it's this phenomenal kind of Domino effect that that increases as our military engagement increases So in now 2051 At the 50th um You think will be more comfortable describing The basically that I have this theory that essentially about 25 years from now we're gonna Put all the Middle Eastern wars into one bucket and just say basically the west got the post 9-11 reaction wrong And it's screwed up and it cost America it's standing in the world Um, and it really set back you know the United States It as far as their global legitimacy. It's at the back a generation if not too It feels like that's frankly the the general direction we're headed by 2051 without some sort of course correction

49:53Yeah, well when I do that series you have me on your show by the way at that point and we'll both be what it be like you know I mean that's what I'm curious about is what will all this look like When the only people making these will be people that really didn't experience it So it's just going to be seen as outcome focused, right? Yeah And boy like to me the Iran war and the Iraq war will probably get conflated the farther away we get And be like every time we have done these war of choices. They don't work out Vietnam or Iraq and you know It'll start being done that way because You know, it's interesting about the first nine months of Afghanistan that you that your documentary capture so well is That wasn't a choice. We felt like well, that's where we had to go. We had to go find them Yeah, and you know We we went into a rack the first time because We were kicking about of Kuwait. We weren't really going into a rack. We were kicking up. You know, we were We were justified. It's a reminder Justify when you when you when you truly are justified you usually make good decisions

50:57When you're trying to be preemptive that's usually when you make bad decisions Yeah, no question. You know, I um You mentioned to get now because we're at the we were at the 50 year anniversary of the fall of Sagan Last year and we did a little we did a piece on that um and You know another another person that we interviewed here is on the win Whose father was in Vietnam and fled Vietnam in 1975 with the fall with that fall so And when you look at those Images of South Vietnamese who'd worked with the Americans desperately trying to escape as Gondwell Running toward planes trying to board hill copters I mean these are some of the most famous images and all of uh Yeah, what do you mean? What do we do? We recreate it in 2021 compare them with those Images in the final days and Kabul airport the echoes are just impossible to ignore And you get another sense of this with the avi gate Marines because you know, you're talking to people who are who are

51:58You know, we we have put the responsibility on to help End this war right that fun to take these final steps to get everybody out Um, and yeah, they have they weren't some more born yet some of them You know, we're three four years old way too young to remember the events of 9-11 and they're fighting and working with um, and that odds with that cases occasionally teleband soldiers who this same right young too young to remember the events They this is a new generation finishing off this Uh war that started right after in the days after 9-11 um, and so in 50 years Where will we be at the 50 years interesting, but think about it, Brian You know 50 years after the fall of Saigon, we're comfortable saying we lost the Vietnam war Yeah, we were not comfortable saying that at the 25 year anniversary We were still there were too many Vietnam vets in our politics too many Vietnam vets You know in leadership positions who I think were never going to accept the premise that yeah that they were involved in an a failure

53:04Right? Yeah I wasn't that that's a really good point I wonder about the because you talk to some of these Marines that were there at Abigate and I I get a sense of that they're They're conflicted right? I mean they really wanted to serve. I mean, I have so much respect for them first of all But you know, they they wanted to um To help they wanted they thought they were doing something you know important um, they you know um one of them got involved not because of um al-Qaeda 9-11 necessarily but because of ISIS some of the things that he saw online With ISIS and so he was motivated to go kind of solve that I mean, I really kind of respect the instinct Um in general, but what are we you know when you but when you talk to them now you wonder if they have you know they're Questioning some of not just why they were there, but what about Iraq what happened um um I sense a real um Kind of deep Thinking about about what this was all about in them and by the way that gives me some hope

54:09I mean, I think you know as we talk to young people You so often when people get older not that you and I are old, but it the once you get older So many people say, oh, you know people don't get it nowadays Sometimes they ask the simpler question Yeah, but like ducking too often Yeah, but I man I I feel like they that a lot of people do get it and and do understand it and do our starting to Well, I'm gonna ask you a question that you don't have the answer for because neither do I but You know, I've been thinking a lot about the fact that we're at the 25th anniversary of 9-11 And every year we've passed a defense budget that um Pretty much gave the Pentagon whatever they asked for and it hasn't mattered democratic congress from publishing congress Sometimes it's always waving the bloody shirt right don't forget 9-11 right a little bit of that right and you like And yet we're running out of munitions. We can barely fight a war um against a run And then also be prepared for a second you know the United States of America

55:13Right is is suddenly being being humbled by a run And what what is what have we done with 25 years of military of Pentagon budgets? How is it that 25 years of some of the most sophisticated war planning Supposedly that had been done has left us in a position like this. I mean It's it's a question. That's why I said I'm asking you a question you can't answer but it's a I kind of think that this is a time to lift up and ask ourselves we're at the 25th anniversary of 9-11 We're still Mired in the Middle East and we seem less prepared for another 9-11 Then we were on 9-11 Yeah, I agree with you um it is it's and I think that um you know just to sort of take that back to the AUMF and to some to some degree I mean You know this was a huge this idea that the authorization to use military force. This is a this is a shift in how it's supposed to work in the United States

56:15Right the Constitution is pretty clear Congress has a power to declare war right I keep wondering if the members of Congress do any of them read the Constitution? I don't know I mean I kind of think that they have to read the what they won't I understand that most people don't read the owners manuals To things but I I think my members of Congress ought to Yeah, if they did it's unambiguous There was a real reason why you know after the American Revolution and they made These these founders made it clear You know, we don't want a king Deciding that we're just gonna go to war we will this this You know the war the ability to go to war is in the hands of Congress also the ability to fund the wars in the hands of Congress There's a huge amount of power here, but post 9-11 and I think you can also Probably argue cold war stuff here too. I mean But in the modern era especially post 9-11 um Congress has has relinquished that that power like been a blank check both in In money to the Pentagon and empowered to the presidency on this yeah, and yeah, are we better off for it?

57:23Definitely not and I think we you see this in in In the tax on Venezuelan boats, you know off the international waters You see this in the Iran war You included that why did you include it? Just this just emphasizing this this Shift of power to the executive that we don't that we don't question and you know, you clearly see that Iran in Iran Trump doesn't feel like he even needs to explain why we're going Uh, it's deteriorating so far. It's not just that there seems to be no congressional Oversight of any kind or any you know congressional um, you know, no discussion with Congress, but but uh no No discussion with the American people nothing. We're it just they're just doing it And um, so that that's we've slipped pretty far Since 9-11 and certainly since the beginning of this country and the founder of this country that basic idea that people

58:23Themselves have to have some say who they go to war with All right, well, let's land this plane the series turning point. What's um, what are some You hinted to me that this is kind of a season too. So what's a few other projects coming? Uh, well, I don't know This this is kind of the the end of this one. I think unless we go we return to it um later, but um, yeah, we're continuing to be just really Fascinated with how things are shifting right now technologically, you know, what Technology's doing to us How are Taylor shared and in one of his shows. I think it's a little lioness had a had a line that I thought was terrific about you Cranies that it's as if war war one and star wars merged that that's the Ukraine war right because we're having this droid, you know, we're radically changing warfare, right? Yeah in in real time watching this It is it feels like we're only a few years from some drone swarm showing up on the coasts of one of our

59:27Major cities and we're gonna be like what the hell is that right like it's it feels inevitable um Yeah, it is Is the superpower mindset going to get punctured even more so in the next 10 years Oh, I think it absolutely will. I mean in in all those sorts of ways, right? Technology's shifting changing what it means to be vulnerable. I you can't help but If you're thinking about 9-11 and the decisions that we made after my lab you can't help a kind of Fast forward. What would they do now? They would use airplanes. They'd use some drone swarm or something, right? Like I don't know if they'd even bother With commercial aircraft Totally. I mean, we're getting we're the world is weird The world is getting we're getting strange with things like AI and other other other sorts of things It's just a different battlefield and yet some of these You know, what is also the war Ukraine is refiding the boundaries of you know world war two in some ways, right? This is Putin reclaiming What he's what he thinks is an initial you know back to that kind of Soviet era, right? This is where there are these

1:00:32These undercurrents The these historical undercurrents are meeting this bizarre, you know futuristic moment with AI and with all sorts of new tools And you know, it's going to create all sorts of challenges. This kind of create all sorts of new vulnerabilities for terrorists And I just hope that like Guess part of this effort really is You know what? Can we remind ourselves the of this trauma that we went through These days in which we were just seized with this fear and this suspicion and and and the decisions that we made after that were driven And then a lot of ways by that fear and suspicion that led to these kind of adverse outcomes So many years decades later. Can can this next generation Um, not fall into that same fear and suspicion and let us set down such a dark place in the first place Can we use our tools as media and as And that's the most important thing you're doing, right? This is the most important thing you're doing because I you know

1:01:36I weirdly do believe that you know, look we've got a bunch of scar tissue from this 25 years 9-11 going forward And yes, we pretty much you know, we rehab the wrong part of our knee and we we got everything we've gotten wrong but Um, my god when it hit when something similar happens again I'd like to think now we have hey, here's one way not to handle it. Yeah Yeah, in fairness to us We hadn't experienced an attack on our homeland like that That's true. You'd never experienced and frankly no offense to Pearl Harbor But that was not on that was like on an island literally That was different. It was the closest thing we had experienced as a country But we still had to tell every the president had to tell everybody this happened Yeah back then right like this was You know, we had none of us had ever you know Oklahoma people in Oklahoma city had experienced something like this, but nothing like this right

1:02:40So that's the hope is that what you're doing Constantly reminding people frankly what we got wrong How much of this we got wrong how really bad it looks now 25 years later I hope provides at least a blueprint of what not to do right there's so yeah I'm not saying it means we'll do it. We'll do it right the next time But hopefully we make different mistakes Yeah, I agree. I mean look this was this was brand new this this this shot us in all sorts of ways It reoriented everybody's just changed everybody's Vision of who we are as a country in our place in the world and what was possible in this country We didn't think we were vulnerable to this and we are and it was brand new But there will be as you mentioned with technology and all the kind of stuff that's coming and this shifting Ground beneath us would in all that there's gonna be new brand brand new things too and you you wonder You know, what is that percentage of us that's able to to sort of step back and say can we call more emotions and make smart decisions on 911

1:03:46It was one person in the entire Congress Barberly Next time See if you can get the numbers up a little bit, you know, so how do you balance let me get you out of here this how do you balance Trying to step back and look at things from 60,000 feet with our non-stop amount of information getting shoved at you all the time Yeah, I think it's I think there's a real benefit and I think honestly I think there's hunger for that With with people I think you know, we we are We are we're we've been hit with a tsunami of information and a social media environment that we just still don't understand and we still don't know what's happening Oh, I was still trying to say we're Social media has been a great experiment on the human brain and it's been a failure Yeah, but we just we stuck with it. Yeah, and that's just a failure We don't you know, we haven't even begun to solve it yet and we're getting hit with this other thing AI now which is further shifting our perception of what is real and what isn't so

1:04:51I actually think there's a real hunger for basic longer form Explanation deeper dive And which things are sources are clear and And the perspective is clear the the process is is More transparent. I think there's a kind of hunger for that Well, Brian it is I don't I don't know how numb you become when you when you work on something like this At what point did you compartmentalize it where you stop reacting emotionally? You can't look at 9-11 not be And not be still affected by you you just can't it doesn't I mean the more you look at it the more it's still there And and those days after are still there and then some of the anger and stuff that have you know some of the decisions later All that is still there, but I do I will say that Yeah talking to young people again, I don't I'm not pessimistic about it I am definitely not one of those people who says how

1:05:51Young people today don't get it. Oh, no I don't feel it. I think they're asking a better question Exactly exactly which is hopeful so you dig into this this dark day and this dark and these dark This decades of Engagement and all these wars and all all the pain and could that's caused and what it's cost us but but I think I mean I emerge somewhat hopeful from all this that you know the right questions are being asked and that there's a there's an instinct and a willingness to To think about it This debut on 9-11 itself or the or the Monday before the second so it's um this is uh Wednesday. Yeah This week. All right. Yeah Brian, this was great. Appreciate the time. Congratulations. Thanks a lot great great to chat again This is an iHeart podcast Guaranteed Human